Season 3 | Episode 11 – Affirming Students’ Mathematics Identities - Guest: Dr. Karisma Morton

Dr. Karisma Morton, Understanding and Supporting Math Identity  

ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 11

In this episode, we will explore the connection between identity and mathematics learning. We’ll examine the factors that may have shaped our own identities and those of our students. We’ll also discuss ways to practice affirming students' identities in mathematics instruction.

BIOGRAPHIES

Dr. Karisma Morton is an assistant professor of mathematics education at the University of North Texas. Her research explores elementary preservice teachers’ ability to teach mathematics in equitable ways, particularly through the development of their critical racial consciousness. Findings from her research have been published in the Journal for Research in Mathematics Education and Educational Researcher. ​

RESOURCES

The Impact of Identity in K–8 Mathematics: Rethinking Equity-Based Practices by Julia Aguirre, Karen Mayfield-Ingram, and Danny Martin

Rough Draft Math: Revising to Learn by Amanda Jansen

Olga Torres' “Rights of the Learner” framework

Cultivating Mathematical Hearts: Culturally Responsive Mathematics Teaching in Elementary Classrooms by Maria del Rosario Zavala and Julia Maria Aguirre

TRANSCRIPT

Mike Wallus: If someone asked you if you were good at math, what would you say, and what justification would you provide for your answer? Regardless of whether you said yes or no, there are some big assumptions baked into this question. In this episode, we're talking with Dr. Karisma Morton about the ways the mathematics identities we formed in childhood impact our instructional practices as adults and how we can support students' mathematical identity formation in the here and now. 

Welcome to the podcast, Karisma. I am really excited to be talking with you about affirming our students’ mathematics identities.

Karisma: Oh, I am really, really excited to be here, Mike. Thank you so much for the invitation to come speak to your audience about this.

Mike: As we were preparing for this podcast, one of the things that you mentioned was the need to move away from this idea that there are math people and nonmath people. While it may seem obvious to some folks, I'm wondering if you can talk about why is this such an important thing and what type of stance educators might adopt in its place?

Karisma: So, the thing is, there is no such thing as a math person, right? We are all math people. And so, if we want to move away from this idea, it means moving away from the belief that people are inherently good or bad at math. The truth is, we all engage in mathematical activity every single day, whether we realize it or not. We are all mathematicians. And so, the key is, as math teachers, we want to remove that barrier in our classrooms that says that only some students are math capable. 

In the math classroom, we can begin doing that by leveraging what students know mathematically, how they experience mathematics in their daily life. And then we as educators can then incorporate some of those types of activities into the everyday learning of math in our classrooms. So, the idea is to get students to realize they are capable math doers, that they are math people. And you're showing them the evidence that they are by bringing in what they're alre

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
If someone asked you ifyou were good at math,
what would you say and what justificationwould you provide for your answer?
Regardless of whether you said yes or no,
there are some big assumptions bakedinto this question. In this episode,
we're talking with Dr. Charisma Mortonabout the ways the mathematics identities
we formed in childhoodimpact our instructional practices as adults and how we

(00:25):
can support students' mathematicalidentity formation in the here and now.
Welcome to the podcast charisma.
I am really excited to be talkingwith you about affirming our students'
mathematics identities.
Oh, I am really, reallyexcited to be here. Mike,
thank you so much for the invitation tocome speak to your audience about this.

(00:47):
As we were preparing for this podcast,
one of the things that you mentionedwas the need to move away from this idea
that there are math peopleand non-math people.
While it may seem obvious to some folks,
I'm wondering if you can talk aboutwhy is this such an important thing and
what type of stance educatorsmight adopt in its place?

(01:09):
So the thing is, there is no suchthing as a math person, right?
We are all math people,
and so if we want tomove away from this idea,
it means moving away from the beliefthat people are inherently good or bad at
math. The truth is, we all engage inmathematical activity every single day,

(01:29):
whether we realize it or not, we areall mathematicians. And so the key is,
as math teachers,
we want to remove that barrier in ourclassrooms that says that only some
students are math capable in the mathclassroom. We can begin by doing that,
by leveraging what students knowmathematically how they experience
mathematics in their daily life.

(01:51):
And then we as educators canthen incorporate some of those
types of activities into theeveryday learning of math in our
classrooms.
So the idea is to getstudents to realize they are
capable math doers, thatthey are math people,
and you're showing them the evidencethat they are by bringing in what they're

(02:13):
already doing, and not justthat they are math doers,
but that those peers that are alsoengaged in the classroom with them
are capable math doers. And so breakingdown those barriers that say that some
students are and some students aren't isreally key. So we are all math people.
I love that sentiment.

(02:34):
I've seen you facilitate an activitywith educators that I'm hoping that we
could replicate on the podcast.
You asked educators to sort themselvesinto one of four groups that best
describe their experience whenthey were a learner of mathematics,
and I'm wondering if you couldread the categories aloud
and then I'm going to ask our listenersto think about the description that best

(02:58):
describes their own experiences.
Okay, great. So there are four groups,
and so if you believe that yourexperience is one where you dreaded
math and you had an overallbad experience with it,
then you would choose group one. Ifyou believe that math was difficult,

(03:18):
but you could solve problemswith tutoring or help,
then you would select group two.
If you found that math was easybecause you were able to memorize and
follow procedures, butyou had to practice a lot,
then you'd be in group three. And finally,
if you had very few difficulties withmath or you were considered a math

(03:40):
whiz, then you would select group four.
I had such a strong reaction when Iparticipated in this activity for the
first time. I've had my ownreckoning with this experience,
but I wonder what impactyou've seen this have on
educators. Why do it?
What's the impact that you hope ithas for someone who's participating?

(04:04):
Yeah. So I would say that akey part of promoting that
message that we started off talkingabout is for teachers to go back to
reflect.
We have to have that experience ofthinking about what it was like for us as
math learners, because oftentimes wego into the classroom and we're like,
all right, I got to do this thing,

(04:24):
but we don't take a minute to reflectwhat was it like for me as a math learner?
And I wanted to first also say thatI did not develop this activity.
This is not a charisma original.
I did see this presented at a math teachereducator conference about five years
ago by Jennifer Ward. I thinkshe's at Kennesaw State right now.
But the premise is the same.

(04:46):
We want to give teachers an opportunityto reflect over their own experiences as
math learners,
as a good starting place for helpingthem to identify with each other and also
with the students that they're teaching.And so whenever I have this
activity done, I have each of theparticipants reflect and then they have

(05:07):
conversations around whythey chose what they chose,
and this is the opportunityfor them to have what we
call windows mirrorsand sliding glass doors.
So you either can see yourself in anotherperson's experience and feel like, oh,
I'm not alone here, especiallyif it were a negative experience.

(05:27):
Or you may get to see or take a glimpseinto what someone else has experienced
that was very different from your own andreally get a chance to understand what
it was like for them. Theymay have been the math whiz,
and you're looking at them like they'rean alien that fell from the sky because
you're like, how did that happen?
But you can begin to havethose kinds of conversations.

(05:50):
Why was it like this for you?And it wasn't like that for me,
or it was the same for me,but what did it look like?
Your instance versus my instance?
I honestly feel like sometimes peopledon't realize that their experience is
not necessarily unique,
especially if it's coming froma math trauma perspective.

(06:11):
Some people don't want to talk abouttheir experience because they feel like it
was just theirs, but they sometimescan begin to realize that, Hey,
you had that experience too, and let'skind of break down what that means.
Do you want to be that type of teacher?
Do you want to create thetype of environment where you felt like you weren't a
capable math doer? Sopowerful, powerful exercise.

(06:34):
I encourage your listeners to try itwith a group of friends or colleagues at
work and really have that conversation.
Gosh, I'm just processing this.
One of the things that I keepgoing back to is you challenging
us to discard the idea that somepeople are inherently good at math and

(06:54):
other people are not.
And I'm making a connection thatif I'm a person who identified with
group one where I dreaded math andit was really a rough experience,
what does it mean for me to discard theidea that some people are inherently
good or inherently not good at math,
versus if I identified as aperson who was treated as the math

(07:19):
whiz and it came easy for me,again, what's required for me,
it feels like there's things thatwe can agree with on the surface.
We can agree that people are notgood inherently at mathematics,
but I find myself really thinkingabout how my own experience actually
colors my beliefs and my actions,

(07:39):
how agreeing to that on the surfaceand then really digging into how your
own experience plays out in yourpractice or the ways that you
interact with kids. There's somework to be done there, it seems like.
Absolutely. You hit the nail on the headthere. It's important to do that work.
It's really important for us to take thatmoment to reflect and think about how

(08:02):
our own experience may impactinghow we're teaching mathematics
to children.
I think that's a great place tomake a shift and talk about areas
where teachers could take action tocultivate a positive mathematics identity
for kids.
I wonder if we can begin by talking aboutexpectations and norms when it comes

(08:24):
to problem solving.
Yes. So Julia Gire, Karen Mayfield Ingram,
and Danny Martin wrote this amazingbook called The Impact of Identity in K
through eight, mathematics,rethinking Equity-Based Practices.
And one of those equity-based practicesis affirming math learners identities.
And so one of the ways we can do thisin the math classroom is when having

(08:46):
students engaged in problem solving.
And so one of the things that we wantto be thinking about when we are having
students engaged in mathproblem is we want to be
promoting students' persistenceand reasoning during problem
solving. And you might wonder, well,what does that actually look like? Well,
it might be helpful to see whatit doesn't look like, right?

(09:09):
So in the typical math classroom,
we often see an emphasis onspeed, who got it done quickly,
who got it done first, who even gotit done within the time allotted,
and then also this idea of competition.So that is
really hard for kids because we allneed time to process and think through

(09:31):
our problem solving strategies.
And if we're putting value onspeed and we're putting value on
competition,
are we in fact putting value ona problem solving strategy or the
process of problem solving?
So one way to affirm mathlearners' identities is to move away from this idea of

(09:51):
speed and competition and fosterthe type of environment where we're
valuing students'persistence with the problem.
We're valuing students'processes in solving a problem,
how they're reasoning,
how they're justifying their stepsor their solutions strategies as
opposed to who's getting done quickly.

(10:12):
Another thing to be thinking aboutis reframing making mistakes.
There's so many greatresources about this.
What comes to mind immediately isRough Draft Math by Amanda Janssen,
which is really helpingus to reframe the idea
that we can make some mistakesand we can revise our thinking,

(10:33):
we can revise our reasoning,
and that's perfectly okay. Olga Torres'sRights of the Learner Framework talks a
lot about the right to make a mistakeis one of the four rights of the learner
in the mathematics classroom.
And so when having kids engaged inproblem solving and mathematics,
mistakes should be seen more likewhat Olga tours calls celebrations,

(10:55):
because there are opportunitiesfor learning to occur.
We can focus on this mistake and thinkabout and problem solve through the
mistake, well, how did we get here?
Use it as a moment that allstudents can benefit from.
And so kids then become less afraidto make mistakes because they're

(11:16):
not ridiculed or made to feelless than because they've done so.
Instead, it empowers them to knowthat, Hey, I made this mistake,
but in actuality,
this is going to help me learn andit's also going to help my classmates.
I suspect a lot of those moments,
people really appreciate whenthere's the aha or the, oh,

(11:38):
what was happening before thatmight've been some struggle or
some misconceptions or a mistake.
You're making me think that we kind ofhave to leave space for those mistakes or
those misconceptions to emerge ifwe really want to have those ahas or
those ohs in our classroom.

(11:58):
That's exactly right. And imagineif you are the one who's like,
oh,
what that does for your selfconfidence and even having your
peers recognize that you'vecome to this answer or this
understanding,
it almost becomes like a collectivewin if you have fostered a type of

(12:19):
environment where it's less about meagainst you and more about all of us
learning together.
The other thing that came to me is thatI'm thinking back to the four groups
I would've identified as a personwho would fit into group two,
meaning that there were definitelypoints where math was difficult for me,

(12:40):
but I could figure it out withtutoring or with help from a teacher.
I start to wonder now how much of myperception was about the fact that it
just took me a little bit longerto process and think about it.
So it wasn't that math was difficult,
it was that I was measuring mysense of myself in mathematics

(13:01):
around whether I was the first personor I was fast, or I got it right away,
or I got it right the first time,as opposed to really thinking about,
do I understand this? And to me,
that really feels connectedto what you're saying,
which is the way that we as teachers,
value students' actions, their roughdraft attempts, their mistakes,

(13:24):
and position those as part of the process.
That can have a really concreteimpact on how I think about myself and
also how I think about whatit is to do math. Well,
let's shift again and talk about anotherarea where educators could support
positive identity and thinking aboutthe ways that they can engage with
students' background knowledgeand their life experiences.

(13:49):
Yeah, this is a huge one,and this really again,
comes back to recognizing that our
students are whole human beings.
They have experiences that weshould want to leverage in the math
classroom,
that they don't need to keep certainparts of themselves at the door when they
come in.

(14:09):
And so how do we take advantageof what our students are
bringing to the table? And so we wantto be thinking a lot about, well,
who is the student? What do they know?
What other identities do theyhold? What's important to them?
What kinds of experiences do they havein their everyday life that I can bring

(14:30):
into the math classroom?What are their strengths?
What do they enjoy doing?
The truth of the matter is reallygreat teachers do this all the time.
You know who your studentsare for the most part, right?
Students come to us with a wholehost of experiences that we want to
leverage and come with all sortsof experiences that we could

(14:54):
use in the math classroom. I thinkoftentimes we don't think about making
connections between those thingsand how to connect them to the
mathematics that'shappening in the classroom.
So oftentimes we don't necessarilysee a reason to connect
what we know about ourstudents to mathematics.

(15:15):
And so it's really just asimple extra step because
really amazing teachers,
which I know they're amazing teachersthat are listening right now,
you know who your students are.
So how do we take what we knowabout them and bring that into the
mathematics learning? Again,as with problem solving,

(15:35):
what is it that we want to stay away from?
We want to be staying away fromconnecting math identity only with
correct answers and how fasta kid is at solving a problem.
Their math identity shouldn't bedependent on how many items they got.
Correct on an assessment. Itshould be more about, well,
what is it that they know and how are weable to use this in the math classroom?

(16:00):
You're making me think about howoftentimes there's this distinction that
happens in people's minds between schoolmath and math that happens everywhere
in the real world.
Part of what I hear you suggesting isthat when you help kids connect to their
real world,
you're actually doing them anotherservice and that you're helping them see
like, oh, these lived experiences thatI might not have called mathematics,

(16:24):
they are right. I domathematics. I'm a doer.
And part of our work in bringing thatin is helping them see what's already
there.
I love that. Helping them see what'salready there. That's exactly right.
Well, before we go,
I'm wondering if you could talk aboutsome of the resources that have informed
your thinking about this and that youthink might also help a person who's

(16:46):
listening who wants to keep learning.
Yeah. There's a lot ofgreat resources out there.
The one that I rely on heavily is theimpact of identity and K through eight
Mathematics, rethinkingEquity-based practices.
I really like this bookbecause it's very accessible.
It does a really great job ofsetting the stage for why we need to

(17:09):
be thinking about equity-based practices,
and I really enjoy howpractical things are.
So the book goes through describingwhat a representative lesson would look
like,
and so it's a really nice blueprintfor teachers as they're thinking about
students' identities and how topromote positive math identity

(17:31):
amongst their students.
And then I think we also mentionedRough Draft Math by Amanda Janssen,
which is a good read.
And then there's also a new bookthat came out recently cultivating
Mathematical Hearts, culturally ResponsiveMath teaching Elementary classrooms.
And this book goes even deeper byhaving vignettes and having specific

(17:52):
classroom examples of what teachingin this kind of way can look
like.
So those are three resources off the topof my head that you could dig into and
have book clubs at your schools andengage with your fellow educators and grow
together.
I think that's a great place to stop.Thank you so much for joining us today.
This has really been a pleasure.

(18:14):
Oh, it's been a pleasuretalking to you too.
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
This podcast is brought to you by theMath Learning Center and the Meyer Math
Foundation dedicated to inspiringand enabling all individuals to
discover and develop theirmathematical confidence and ability.