Dr. Cathery Yeh, Supporting Neurodiverse Students in Elementary Mathematics Classrooms
ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 14
What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might it impact a student’s learning experience?
And how can educators think about the work of designing environments and experiences that support neurodiverse students learning mathematics?
In this episode, we discuss these questions with Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.
BIOGRAPHY
Dr. Cathery Yeh is an assistant professor in STEM education and a core faculty member in the Center for Asian American Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. Her research examines the intersections of race, language, and disability to provide a nuanced analysis of the constructions of ability in mathematics classrooms and education systems.
TRANSCRIPT
Mike Wallus: What meaning does the term neurodiverse convey and how might that language impact a student's learning experience? In this episode, we'll explore those questions. And we'll think about ways that educators can design learning environments that support all of their students. Joining us for this conversation is Dr. Cathery Yeh, a professor in STEM education from the University of Texas at Austin.
Welcome to the podcast, Cathery. It's really exciting to have you with us today.
Cathery Yeh: Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited.
Mike: So, I wonder if we can start by offering listeners a common understanding of language that we'll use from time to time throughout the episode. How do you think about the meaning of neurodiversity?
Cathery: Thank you for this thoughtful question. Language matters a lot. For me, neurodiversity refers to the natural variation in our human brains and our neurocognition, challenging this idea that there's a normal brain. I always think of… In Texas, we just had a snow day two days ago. And I think of, just as, there's no two snowflakes that are the same, there's no two brains that are exactly the same, too. I also think of its meaning from a personal perspective. I am not a special educator. I was a bilingual teacher and taught in inclusive settings. And my first exposure to the meaning of neurodiversity came from my own child, who—she openly blogs about it—as a Chinese-American girl, it was actually really hard for her to be diagnosed. Asian Americans, 1 out of 10 are diagnosed—that's the lowest of any ethnic racial group. And I'll often think about when… She's proud of her disabled identity. It is who she is. But what she noticed that when she tells people about her disabled identity, what do you think is the first thing people say when she says, “I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD. I have autism.” What do you think folks usually say to her? The most common response?
Mike: I'm going to guess that they express some level of surprise, and it might be associated with her ethnic background or racial identity.
Cathery: She doesn't get that as much. The first thing people say is, they apologize to her. They say, “I'm sorry.”
Mike: Wow.
Cathery: And that happens quite a lot. And I say that because–and then I connected back to the term neurodiversity—because I think it's important to know its origins. It came about by Judy Singer. She's a sociologist. And about 30 years ago, she coined the term neurodiversity as an opposition to the medical model of understanding people and human difference as deficits. And her understanding is that difference is beautiful. All of us think and learn and process differently, and that'
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
What meaning does the term neurodiverseconvey and how might that language
impact a student's learningexperience? In this episode,
we'll explore those questions and we'llthink about ways that educators can
design learning environments thatsupport all of their students.
Joining us for this conversationis Dr. Catherine Yay,
a professor in STEM education fromthe University of Texas at Austin.
(00:30):
Welcome to the podcast C. It's reallyexciting to have you with us today.
Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited.
So I wonder if we can start by offeringlisteners a common understanding of
language that we'll use from timeto time throughout the episode.
How do you think about themeaning of neurodiversity?
Thank you for this thoughtful question.
(00:51):
Language matters a lot for me.
Neurodiversity refers to the naturalvariation in our human brains and our
neurocognition challenging thisidea that there's a normal brain.
I always think of in Texas, wejust had a snow day two days ago,
and I think of just as, there's notwo snowflakes that are the same.
(01:11):
There's no two brain.That's exactly the same too.
I also think of its meaningfrom a personal perspective.
I am not a special educator.
I was a bilingual teacher andtaught in inclusive settings,
and my first exposure to the meaning ofneurodiversity came from my own child
who she openly blogs about it.
(01:31):
As a Chinese-American girl,
it was actually really hard for herto be diagnosed. Asian Americans,
one out of 10 are diagnosed. That's whyI'm lowest on any ethnic racial group,
and I'll often think about whenshe's proud of her disabled identity,
it is who she is.
But what she noticed that when she tellspeople about her disabled identity,
(01:53):
what do you think is the firstthing people say when she says,
I'm neurodivergent. Ihave a DHD, I have autism.
What do you think folks usually sayto her? The most common response.
I'm going to guess that they expresssome level of surprise and it might be
associated with her ethnicbackground or racial identity.
She doesn't get that as much.
The first thing people say isthey apologize to her. They say,
(02:16):
I'm sorry.
Wow.
And that happens quite alot. And I say that because,
and then it connected back to the Terminneurodiversity because I think it's
important to know its origins.It came about by Judy Singer,
she's a sociologist,and about 30 years ago,
she coined the term neurodiversity asan opposition to the medical model of
(02:36):
understanding people andhuman differences deficits.
And her understanding isthat difference is beautiful.
All of us think and learnand process differently,
and that's part of human diversity.
So that original definitionof neurodiversity was tied to the autism rights
movement. But now whenwe think about the term,
(02:56):
it's expanded to includefolks with a DHD, dyslexia,
dyscalculia mental healthconditions like depression, anxiety,
and other neuro minorities likeTourette syndrome and even memory loss.
I wanted to name out all these thingsbecause sometimes we're looking for a
really clean definitionand definitions are messy.
(03:17):
There's a personal one.
There's a societal one of how we positionneurodiversity as something that's
deficit that needs to be fixed,but it's part of who one is,
but it's also socially constructed becausehow do you decide when a difference
becomes a difference that counts whereyou qualify as being neurodiverse.
So I think there's a lotto consider around that.
(03:40):
The answer that you shared is really agood segue because the question I was
going to ask you involves somethingthat I suspect you hear quite often is
people asking you,
what are the best ways that I cansupport my neurodiverse students?
And it occurs to me that part of thechallenge of that question is it assumes
that there's this narrow rangeof things that you do for this
(04:03):
narrow range of studentswho are different.
The way that you just talked about themeaning of neurodiversity probably means
that you have a different kind of answerto that question when people ask it.
I do get this question quite a lot.
People email it to me or they'll ask me.
That's usually the first thing people ask.
I think my response kind ofmatches my pink hair question.
(04:25):
When they ask me the question, Ioften ask a question back and I go,
how would you best educate Chinesechildren in math? And they're like,
why would you ask that?
The underlining assumption isthat all Chinese children are the
same and they learn the same ways,
they have the same needs and also thattheir needs are different than the
(04:46):
research base equity mathpractices. We know and have done 50,
60 years of research thatwe've highlighted our effective teaching practices for
all children. We've beenpart of NCTM for 20 years.
We know that tasks that promotereasoning and problem solving has been
effectively shown to be good for all.Using a connecting math representations
(05:07):
across math representations in alesson is good for all multimodal math
discourse, not just verbal, written,
but embodied in part who we are andin building on student thinking and
all those things we know, and those areoften the recommendations we should ask.
But I think an important questionis how often are our questions
(05:28):
connecting to that? Instead,how often are we seeing that?
We assume that certain studentscannot engage in these practices,
and I think that's somethingwe should traumatize more.
I'm not saying that there are not specificstruggles or difficulties that the
neurodiversity umbrella includes,which includes A DHD, dyslexia, autism,
(05:50):
bipolar disorder, onand on. So many things.
I'm not saying that they don'texperience difficulties in our school
environment, but it's also understandingthat if one neurodiverse student,
you know me or my child, youonly know one. That's all.
And by assuming we're all the same,
it ignores the other socialidentities and live experiences that
(06:11):
students have that impact their learning.So I'm going to ask you a question.
Fire away.
Okay. What comes to your mind when youhear the term NEURODIVERSE student?
What does that student look like,sound like, appear like to you?
I think that's a really great question.
There's a version of me not long agothat would have thought of that student.
(06:33):
As someone who's beencategorized as special education,
receiving special education services,
perhaps a student that has A-D-H-D-Imight've used language like
students who have sensoryneeds or processing.
And I think as I hear myself say,
some of those things thatI would've previously said,
(06:53):
what jumps out is two things.
One is I'm painting with a reallybroad brush as opposed to looking at
the individual student andthe things that they need.
And two is the extent to which paintingwith a broad brush or trying to
find a bucket of strategies that'sfor a particular group of students,
(07:13):
that really limits my thinkingaround what they can do or all the
brilliance that they may have inside them.
Thank you for sharing that becausethat's a reflection I often do.
I think about when I learned aboutmy child, I learned about myself,
how I automatically went to adeficit lens of like, oh, no,
how are we going to function in the world?
(07:33):
How's she going to function in the world?
But I also do this prompt quitea lot with teachers and others,
and I ask 'em to draw it. Whenyou draw someone, what do you see?
And I'll be honest, kind oflike drawing a scientist.
We often draw Albert Einstein.
When I ask folks to draw what aneurodiverse student looks like,
they're predominantly whiteboys, to be honest with you,
(07:56):
and I want to name that out,is because students of color,
especially black brown native students,
they're disproportionately over andunder-identified as disabled in our
schooling.
Like we think about this idea thatwhen most of us associate autism or A
DHD mainly as part of theneurodiversity branch and as entirely
within as white boys,
(08:17):
which often happens with many of theteachers that I talk to and parents,
we see them as needing services.But in contrast,
when we think about particularlyour students of color and our boys,
these young men,
there's often a contrast ofcriminalization in being deprived of
services for them. And thisis not even what I'm saying.
(08:38):
It's been 50 years of documented researchfrom the depart Ed from annual civil
rights that repeatedly shows for 50years now extreme disproportionality
for disabled black and Latinx boys,
in particular from suspensionexpulsion and in school arrests.
I think one of the mostsurprising statistics for me that I had learned recently
(08:59):
was African-American youth arefive times more likely to be
misdiagnosed with chronic disorderbefore receiving the proper diagnosis of
autism spectrum disorder.
And I appreciate going back to that terminneural neurodiversity because I think
it's really important for us to realizethat neurodiversity is an asset-based
perspective that makes us shift fromlooking as the student that needs to be
(09:22):
fixed, that neurodiversity is the norm,
but for us to look at the environment.And I really believe that we cannot have
conversations about disability withoutfully having conversations about race
language and the need toquestion what needs to be fixed,
particularly not just our teaching, butour assessment practices. For example,
we talk about neurodiversity aroundwhat we consider normal or abnormal,
(09:45):
which is based on how we makeexpectations around what society thinks.
One, the things that showed up inour own household when we think about
neurodiversity or assessments forautism is this idea of maintaining eye
contact.
That's one of the wily consideredautistic traits in the Chinese and an
Asian household and also in Africancommunities making eye contact to an
(10:08):
adult or somebody withauthority. It is considered rude,
but we consider that as one of thecharacteristics when we engage in
diagnostic tools.
This is where I think there needs to bemore deep reflection around how one is
diagnosed,
how conversations of disability isnot separate from our understanding of
(10:29):
students and their languagepractices, their cultural practices.
What do we consider normative becausenormative is highly situated in culture
and context.
I would love to stay on this theme becauseone of the things that stands out in
that last portion of our conversationwas this notion that rather than thinking
about we need to change the child,
part of what we really want to thinkabout is what is the work that we might do
(10:53):
to change the learning environment?
And I wonder if you could talk a bitabout how educators go about that and what
maybe some of the tools could be in theirtoolbox if they were trying to think
in that way.
I love that question ofwhat can we as teachers do?
What's some actionable things?
I really appreciate UniversalDesign for Learning framework,
(11:13):
particularly their revised updatedversion or 3.0 version that just came out,
I think it was June or July of this year.
Let me give you a little bit ofbackground about universal design.
And I'm sure you probably already know,
I've been reading a lot aroundits origins. It came about 1980s.
We know from cast.org, butI want to go further back,
(11:34):
and it really builds from universaldesign and the work of architecture.
So Universal design was coinedby a disabled architect. His name was Ronald May.
And as I was reading his words,
it really helped me betterunderstand what UDL is.
We know that UDL Universal designed forlearning and universal design is about
(11:54):
access. Everybody should have accessto curriculum and that sounds great,
but I've also seen classrooms whereaccess to curriculum meant doing a
different worksheet while everybodyelse is engaging in small group,
whole group. Problem-based learningaccess might mean your desk
is in the front of the roomwhere you're self isolated,
(12:16):
where you're really closeto the friend of the board.
So you can see it really well,but you can't talk to your peers.
Or that access might mean you're in awhole different classroom doing the same
set of worksheets or problems, butyou're not with your grade level peers.
And when Ronald Mays talks about access,
he explained that access in architecturehad already been a focus in the late
(12:39):
19 hundreds around 1998 I think.
But he said that universal designis really about the longing,
and I think that reallyshifted the framing.
And his argument was thatwe need to design a place,
an environment where folksacross a range of bodies and
minds feel a sense of belongingthere that we don't need to
(13:01):
adapt. The space wasalready designed for you,
and that has been such a transformativeperspective that it shouldn't be going a
different route or doing somethingdifferent because by doing that,
you don't feel like you belong.
But if the space is one where youcan take part equally and access
(13:22):
across the ways may you may engage,then you feel a sense of belonging.
The piece of what you said that I'mreally contemplating right now is this
notion of belonging.
What occurs to me is thatapproaching design principles for a
learning environment or a learningexperience with belonging in mind is a
(13:42):
really profound shift.Like asking the question,
what would it mean to feel a senseof belonging in this classroom or
during this activity that'shappening that really changes
the kinds of things that an educatormight consider going through a planning
process.
I'm wondering if you think you might beable to share an example or two of how
(14:06):
you've seen educators applyuniversal design principles in their
classrooms in ways that removebarriers in the environment and support
students' mathematical learning.
Oh gosh, I feel soblessed. I spend tomorrow,
I'm going to be at a schoolsite all day doing this.
UDL is about being responsive to ourstudents and knowing that the best
(14:29):
teaching requires us tolisten deeply to who they are,
honor their mathematicalbrilliance and their agency.
It's about honoring who they are.
I think where UDL ups it to anotherlevel is it asks us to consider
who makes the decision.
If we are making all the decisionsof what is best for that student,
that's not fully alignedwith UDL, the heart of UDL,
(14:53):
it's around multiple ways for me toengage, to represent and express,
and then students are given choice.
So one of the things that's an importantpart of UDL is honoring students'
agency. So we do something calledaccess needs. At the start of a lesson,
we might go,
what do you need to be able tofully participate in math today?
(15:15):
And kids from kindergarten to high schoolor even my college students will just
write out what they need. Andusually it's pretty stereotypical,
I want to talk to someonewhen I'm learning,
I would like to see itand not just hear it.
And then you continually go back andyou ask, what are your access needs?
What do you need to fully participate?
(15:35):
So students are reflecting on theirown what they need to be fully
present and what they believeis helpful to create a
successful learning environment.
So that's a very strong UDLprinciple that instead of us coming
up with a set of norms for ourstudents, we co-develop that,
but we're co-developing it based onstudents reflecting on their experience in
(15:59):
their environment. In kindergarten,
we have children draw pictures as theyget older. They can draw, they can write,
but it's this idea that it's anongoing process for me to name out
what I need to be fully present.And oftentimes they're going to say
things that are pretty critical.
It's almost always criticalto be honest with you,
(16:21):
but I would say that'sa core component of UDL.
We're allowing students to reflect onwhat they need so they can name it for
themselves, and then we canthen design that space together.
And along the way, we havekids that name, you know what?
I need the manipulatives to be closer.
That will not come about at the startof me asking about access needs,
(16:42):
but we did a lesson and it wasnot close by. They'll tell me.
So it's really arounddesigning an environment where they can fully participate
and be their full selves and feel a senseof belonging. So that's one example.
Another one that we've been doingis teachers and kids who have
traditionally not participated the mostin our classrooms or have even engaged
(17:04):
in pullout intervention. And we'llhave them walk around school telling us
about their day.
Will you walk me through your day andtell me how you feel in each of these
spaces and what are yourexperiences like? And again,
we're allowing the studentsto name out what they need,
and then they're naming out.
Oftentimes with the students thatwe're at where I'm working in mostly
multilingual spaces, they'llsay, oh, I love this teacher.
(17:26):
She allows us to speak inSpanish in the room. Okay,
so that's going back to ideasof action expression engagement,
where students areallowed to trans language.
That's when the language principles,
but we're allowing students andproviding spaces and really paying
close attention to how do we decidehow to maximize participation for our
(17:47):
students With these set of UL guidelines,
how we are able to listen and makecertain decisions on how we can strengthen
their participation, their senseof belonging in our classrooms.
I think what's lovely aboutboth of those examples,
asking them to write ordraw what they need or the
description of, let'swalk through the day,
let's walk through the different spacesthat you learn in or the humans that you
(18:10):
learn with is one.
It really is listening to them and tryingto make meaning of that and using that
as your starting point.
I think the other piece is that itmakes me think that it's something that
happens over time. It might shift,
you might gain more clarity around thethings that students need or they might
gain more clarity around thethings that they need over time,
(18:33):
and those might shift a little bit, orit might come into greater focus like,
I thought I needed this,or I think I needed this,
but what I really meant was this.
There's this opportunity for kidsto refine their needs and for
educators to think about thatand the designs that they create.
I really appreciate you namingthat because it's all of that.
(18:55):
It's an ongoing process where we'rebuilding a relationship with our students
for us to co-design whateffective teaching looks like,
that it's not a one size fits all.
It's disrupting this idea thatwhat works for one works for all.
It's around supporting our studentsto name out what they need.
I'm almost 50. I struggle toname out what I need sometimes,
(19:17):
so it's not going to happen inone time. It's an ongoing process,
and in what we need is linked tocontext, so it has to be ongoing,
but there's also in the moments as well,
and it's the heart ofgood teaching and math.
When you allow students to solve problemsin the ways that make sense to them,
that's UDL by design that's honoringthe ideas of multiplicity and action
(19:38):
expression.
When you might give context based problemand you take the numbers away and you
give a set of number choicesthat students get to choose from.
That is also this idea of UDL becausethere's multiple ways for them to engage.
So there are also little things thatwe do that note how they're just
effective teaching,
but we're honoring this ideathat children should have agency,
(20:03):
all children can engagein doing mathematics,
and part of learning mathematics isalso supporting our students to see the
brilliance in themselves and toleverage that in their own teaching and
learning.
Something else that really occurredto me as we've been talking is the
difference between the way we'vebeen talking about centering students
(20:25):
needs and asking them to help usunderstand them and the process
that kind of kicks off.
I think what strikes me is that it'sactually opening up the possibilities of
what might happen or the ways that astudent could be successful as opposed
to this notion that you'reneurodiverse, you fit in this bucket.
(20:45):
There's a set of strategiesthat going to do just for you,
and those strategies might actuallylimit or constrict the options you have.
For example, in terms of mathematics,
what I remember happening very oftenwhen I was teaching is I would create an
open space for students to think aboutways that they could solve problems.
And at the time,
(21:06):
often what would happen is kids who werecharacterized as neurodiverse wouldn't
get access to those same strategies.
It would be kind of the idea that thisis the way we should show them how to do
it. It just strikes me howdifferent that experience is.
I suspect that that was donewith the best of intentions,
but I think the impact unfortunatelyprobably really didn't match the
(21:28):
intent.
I love how you're being honest. As I didthe same thing when I was teaching too,
because we were often instructed toengage in whole group instruction and
probably do a small group pullout.That was how I was taught.
And when the same kids are repeatedlypulled out because we're saying that
they're not able toengage in the instruction,
(21:50):
I think the part of uudL is uud L as a process,
realizing that if studentsare not engaging fully in the ways that we had hoped,
instead of trying to fix the child,
we look at the environment and thinkabout what changes we need to make in tier
one. So whole group instruction,
whole group participation first to seehow we can maximize their participation.
(22:12):
And it's not one strategy because itdepends. It really depends. I think of,
for example, with a group ofteachers in California and Texas now,
we've been looking at how we cantrack participation in whole group
settings, and we look at themacross social demographics,
and then we started to notice thatwhen we promote multimodal whole group
(22:34):
participation,
like kids have access to manipulativeseven during whole group share out,
or they have visuals that they can pointto their participation and who gets to
participate drastically increase.So there's many ways in which
by nature, we engage in somenarrow practices because too,
oftentimes whole group discussion isalmost completely verbal and at times
(22:58):
written and usually the teacher's writing.
So it's going back to the idea of can welook at what we want our students to do
at that moment? So starting onthe math concept and practices,
but then looking at our students andwhen they're not participating fully,
it's not them.
What are the UDL principles and thingsthat I know and strategies that I have
(23:19):
with my colleagues that Ican make some small shifts.
One of the things that I enjoy most aboutthe podcast is that we really can take
a deep dive into some big ideas,
and the limitation is we have 20minutes to perhaps a half hour,
and I suspect there are a lot of peoplewho are trying to make meaning of what
we're talking about and thinkingabout how might I follow up?
(23:41):
How might I take actionon some of the ideas?
So I want to turn just fora little while to resources,
and I'm wondering if there are resourcesthat you would suggest for a listener
who wants to continue learning aboutuniversal design in a mathematics
classroom?
Oh my goodness, that's sucha hard question. So many, some good ones. Overall,
I would definitely encourage folksto dive into the UDL guidelines.
(24:02):
The 3.0 updates. They're amazing.
They're so joyful andtransformative that they even have,
one of the principles is centering joyin play, and for us to imagine that,
right?
Yes.
What does that mean to dothat in a math classroom?
We can name out 50 different ways.So how often do we get to see that?
(24:23):
I would highly encouragefolks to download that,
engage in deep discussion because it wasa 2.2 version for I think quite a few
years.
I would also lean into a resourcethat I'm glad to email later on.
It's more easily accessible.I talked about access needs,
this idea of asking students,asking community members,
(24:44):
asking folks to give this opportunityto name out what they need.
It's written by a colleague,
Dr. Daniel Reinhold andDr. Samantha Richway.
It's a lovely reading and it focusesspecifically in STEM that I think it's a
great place to read.
I would say that Dr. Rachel Lambert'snew book on UD L Math is an excellent
read.
(25:04):
It's a great joyful read to think about.I'm going to give one shout out to the
book called The Year of the Tiger andActivist Life. It's by Alice Wong.
I encourage that because how oftendo we put the word activism next to
disability? And Alice Wong is one ofthe most amazing humans in the world,
and it's a graphic novel.So it's just joyful.
It's words with poetry and graphicnovel mixed together to see the
(25:29):
life of what it means to be a disabledactivist and how activism and disability
goes hand in hand. Because when youare disabled and multi marginalized,
you are often advocating foryourself and others. It's amazing.
So I'll stop there.There's endless amounts.
So for listeners,
we'll link the resources that C wastalking about in our show notes.
(25:51):
I could keep going, but I think thisis probably a great place to stop.
I want to thank you somuch for joining us.
It's really been apleasure talking with you.
Thank you. Thank you.
This podcast is brought to you by theMath Learning Center and the Meyer Math
Foundation dedicated to inspiring andenabling all individuals to discover
(26:12):
and develop their mathematicalconfidence and ability.
What meaning does the term neurodiverseconvey and how might that language
impact a student's learningexperience? In this episode,
we'll explore those questions and we'llthink about ways that educators can
design learning environments thatsupport all of their students.
Joining us for this conversationis Dr. Catherine Yay,
a professor in STEM education fromthe University of Texas at Austin.
(00:30):
Welcome to the podcast C. It's reallyexciting to have you with us today.
Thank you, Mike. Honored to be invited.
So I wonder if we can start by offeringlisteners a common understanding of
language that we'll use from timeto time throughout the episode.
How do you think about themeaning of neurodiversity?
Thank you for this thoughtful question.
(00:51):
Language matters a lot for me.
Neurodiversity refers to the naturalvariation in our human brains and our
neurocognition challenging thisidea that there's a normal brain.
I always think of in Texas, wejust had a snow day two days ago,
and I think of just as, there's notwo snowflakes that are the same.
(01:11):
There's no two brain.That's exactly the same too.
I also think of its meaningfrom a personal perspective.
I am not a special educator.
I was a bilingual teacher andtaught in inclusive settings,
and my first exposure to the meaning ofneurodiversity came from my own child
who she openly blogs about it.
(01:31):
As a Chinese-American girl,
it was actually really hard for herto be diagnosed. Asian Americans,
one out of 10 are diagnosed. That's whyI'm lowest on any ethnic racial group,
and I'll often think about whenshe's proud of her disabled identity,
it is who she is.
But what she noticed that when she tellspeople about her disabled identity,
(01:53):
what do you think is the firstthing people say when she says,
I'm neurodivergent. Ihave a DHD, I have autism.
What do you think folks usually sayto her? The most common response.
I'm going to guess that they expresssome level of surprise and it might be
associated with her ethnicbackground or racial identity.
She doesn't get that as much.
The first thing people say isthey apologize to her. They say,
(02:16):
I'm sorry.
Wow.
And that happens quite alot. And I say that because,
and then it connected back to the Terminneurodiversity because I think it's
important to know its origins.It came about by Judy Singer,
she's a sociologist,and about 30 years ago,
she coined the term neurodiversity asan opposition to the medical model of
(02:36):
understanding people andhuman differences deficits.
And her understanding isthat difference is beautiful.
All of us think and learnand process differently,
and that's part of human diversity.
So that original definitionof neurodiversity was tied to the autism rights
movement. But now whenwe think about the term,
(02:56):
it's expanded to includefolks with a DHD, dyslexia,
dyscalculia mental healthconditions like depression, anxiety,
and other neuro minorities likeTourette syndrome and even memory loss.
I wanted to name out all these thingsbecause sometimes we're looking for a
really clean definitionand definitions are messy.
(03:17):
There's a personal one.
There's a societal one of how we positionneurodiversity as something that's
deficit that needs to be fixed,but it's part of who one is,
but it's also socially constructed becausehow do you decide when a difference
becomes a difference that counts whereyou qualify as being neurodiverse.
So I think there's a lotto consider around that.
(03:40):
The answer that you shared is really agood segue because the question I was
going to ask you involves somethingthat I suspect you hear quite often is
people asking you,
what are the best ways that I cansupport my neurodiverse students?
And it occurs to me that part of thechallenge of that question is it assumes
that there's this narrow rangeof things that you do for this
(04:03):
narrow range of studentswho are different.
The way that you just talked about themeaning of neurodiversity probably means
that you have a different kind of answerto that question when people ask it.
I do get this question quite a lot.
People email it to me or they'll ask me.
That's usually the first thing people ask.
I think my response kind ofmatches my pink hair question.
(04:25):
When they ask me the question, Ioften ask a question back and I go,
how would you best educate Chinesechildren in math? And they're like,
why would you ask that?
The underlining assumption isthat all Chinese children are the
same and they learn the same ways,
they have the same needs and also thattheir needs are different than the
(04:46):
research base equity mathpractices. We know and have done 50,
60 years of research thatwe've highlighted our effective teaching practices for
all children. We've beenpart of NCTM for 20 years.
We know that tasks that promotereasoning and problem solving has been
effectively shown to be good for all.Using a connecting math representations
(05:07):
across math representations in alesson is good for all multimodal math
discourse, not just verbal, written,
but embodied in part who we are andin building on student thinking and
all those things we know, and those areoften the recommendations we should ask.
But I think an important questionis how often are our questions
(05:28):
connecting to that? Instead,how often are we seeing that?
We assume that certain studentscannot engage in these practices,
and I think that's somethingwe should traumatize more.
I'm not saying that there are not specificstruggles or difficulties that the
neurodiversity umbrella includes,which includes A DHD, dyslexia, autism,
(05:50):
bipolar disorder, onand on. So many things.
I'm not saying that they don'texperience difficulties in our school
environment, but it's also understandingthat if one neurodiverse student,
you know me or my child, youonly know one. That's all.
And by assuming we're all the same,
it ignores the other socialidentities and live experiences that
(06:11):
students have that impact their learning.So I'm going to ask you a question.
Fire away.
Okay. What comes to your mind when youhear the term NEURODIVERSE student?
What does that student look like,sound like, appear like to you?
I think that's a really great question.
There's a version of me not long agothat would have thought of that student.
(06:33):
As someone who's beencategorized as special education,
receiving special education services,
perhaps a student that has A-D-H-D-Imight've used language like
students who have sensoryneeds or processing.
And I think as I hear myself say,
some of those things thatI would've previously said,
(06:53):
what jumps out is two things.
One is I'm painting with a reallybroad brush as opposed to looking at
the individual student andthe things that they need.
And two is the extent to which paintingwith a broad brush or trying to
find a bucket of strategies that'sfor a particular group of students,
(07:13):
that really limits my thinkingaround what they can do or all the
brilliance that they may have inside them.
Thank you for sharing that becausethat's a reflection I often do.
I think about when I learned aboutmy child, I learned about myself,
how I automatically went to adeficit lens of like, oh, no,
how are we going to function in the world?
(07:33):
How's she going to function in the world?
But I also do this prompt quitea lot with teachers and others,
and I ask 'em to draw it. Whenyou draw someone, what do you see?
And I'll be honest, kind oflike drawing a scientist.
We often draw Albert Einstein.
When I ask folks to draw what aneurodiverse student looks like,
they're predominantly whiteboys, to be honest with you,
(07:56):
and I want to name that out,is because students of color,
especially black brown native students,
they're disproportionately over andunder-identified as disabled in our
schooling.
Like we think about this idea thatwhen most of us associate autism or A
DHD mainly as part of theneurodiversity branch and as entirely
within as white boys,
(08:17):
which often happens with many of theteachers that I talk to and parents,
we see them as needing services.But in contrast,
when we think about particularlyour students of color and our boys,
these young men,
there's often a contrast ofcriminalization in being deprived of
services for them. And thisis not even what I'm saying.
(08:38):
It's been 50 years of documented researchfrom the depart Ed from annual civil
rights that repeatedly shows for 50years now extreme disproportionality
for disabled black and Latinx boys,
in particular from suspensionexpulsion and in school arrests.
I think one of the mostsurprising statistics for me that I had learned recently
(08:59):
was African-American youth arefive times more likely to be
misdiagnosed with chronic disorderbefore receiving the proper diagnosis of
autism spectrum disorder.
And I appreciate going back to that terminneural neurodiversity because I think
it's really important for us to realizethat neurodiversity is an asset-based
perspective that makes us shift fromlooking as the student that needs to be
(09:22):
fixed, that neurodiversity is the norm,
but for us to look at the environment.And I really believe that we cannot have
conversations about disability withoutfully having conversations about race
language and the need toquestion what needs to be fixed,
particularly not just our teaching, butour assessment practices. For example,
we talk about neurodiversity aroundwhat we consider normal or abnormal,
(09:45):
which is based on how we makeexpectations around what society thinks.
One, the things that showed up inour own household when we think about
neurodiversity or assessments forautism is this idea of maintaining eye
contact.
That's one of the wily consideredautistic traits in the Chinese and an
Asian household and also in Africancommunities making eye contact to an
(10:08):
adult or somebody withauthority. It is considered rude,
but we consider that as one of thecharacteristics when we engage in
diagnostic tools.
This is where I think there needs to bemore deep reflection around how one is
diagnosed,
how conversations of disability isnot separate from our understanding of
(10:29):
students and their languagepractices, their cultural practices.
What do we consider normative becausenormative is highly situated in culture
and context.
I would love to stay on this theme becauseone of the things that stands out in
that last portion of our conversationwas this notion that rather than thinking
about we need to change the child,
part of what we really want to thinkabout is what is the work that we might do
(10:53):
to change the learning environment?
And I wonder if you could talk a bitabout how educators go about that and what
maybe some of the tools could be in theirtoolbox if they were trying to think
in that way.
I love that question ofwhat can we as teachers do?
What's some actionable things?
I really appreciate UniversalDesign for Learning framework,
(11:13):
particularly their revised updatedversion or 3.0 version that just came out,
I think it was June or July of this year.
Let me give you a little bit ofbackground about universal design.
And I'm sure you probably already know,
I've been reading a lot aroundits origins. It came about 1980s.
We know from cast.org, butI want to go further back,
(11:34):
and it really builds from universaldesign and the work of architecture.
So Universal design was coinedby a disabled architect. His name was Ronald May.
And as I was reading his words,
it really helped me betterunderstand what UDL is.
We know that UDL Universal designed forlearning and universal design is about
(11:54):
access. Everybody should have accessto curriculum and that sounds great,
but I've also seen classrooms whereaccess to curriculum meant doing a
different worksheet while everybodyelse is engaging in small group,
whole group. Problem-based learningaccess might mean your desk
is in the front of the roomwhere you're self isolated,
(12:16):
where you're really closeto the friend of the board.
So you can see it really well,but you can't talk to your peers.
Or that access might mean you're in awhole different classroom doing the same
set of worksheets or problems, butyou're not with your grade level peers.
And when Ronald Mays talks about access,
he explained that access in architecturehad already been a focus in the late
(12:39):
19 hundreds around 1998 I think.
But he said that universal designis really about the longing,
and I think that reallyshifted the framing.
And his argument was thatwe need to design a place,
an environment where folksacross a range of bodies and
minds feel a sense of belongingthere that we don't need to
(13:01):
adapt. The space wasalready designed for you,
and that has been such a transformativeperspective that it shouldn't be going a
different route or doing somethingdifferent because by doing that,
you don't feel like you belong.
But if the space is one where youcan take part equally and access
(13:22):
across the ways may you may engage,then you feel a sense of belonging.
The piece of what you said that I'mreally contemplating right now is this
notion of belonging.
What occurs to me is thatapproaching design principles for a
learning environment or a learningexperience with belonging in mind is a
(13:42):
really profound shift.Like asking the question,
what would it mean to feel a senseof belonging in this classroom or
during this activity that'shappening that really changes
the kinds of things that an educatormight consider going through a planning
process.
I'm wondering if you think you might beable to share an example or two of how
(14:06):
you've seen educators applyuniversal design principles in their
classrooms in ways that removebarriers in the environment and support
students' mathematical learning.
Oh gosh, I feel soblessed. I spend tomorrow,
I'm going to be at a schoolsite all day doing this.
UDL is about being responsive to ourstudents and knowing that the best
(14:29):
teaching requires us tolisten deeply to who they are,
honor their mathematicalbrilliance and their agency.
It's about honoring who they are.
I think where UDL ups it to anotherlevel is it asks us to consider
who makes the decision.
If we are making all the decisionsof what is best for that student,
that's not fully alignedwith UDL, the heart of UDL,
(14:53):
it's around multiple ways for me toengage, to represent and express,
and then students are given choice.
So one of the things that's an importantpart of UDL is honoring students'
agency. So we do something calledaccess needs. At the start of a lesson,
we might go,
what do you need to be able tofully participate in math today?
(15:15):
And kids from kindergarten to high schoolor even my college students will just
write out what they need. Andusually it's pretty stereotypical,
I want to talk to someonewhen I'm learning,
I would like to see itand not just hear it.
And then you continually go back andyou ask, what are your access needs?
What do you need to fully participate?
(15:35):
So students are reflecting on theirown what they need to be fully
present and what they believeis helpful to create a
successful learning environment.
So that's a very strong UDLprinciple that instead of us coming
up with a set of norms for ourstudents, we co-develop that,
but we're co-developing it based onstudents reflecting on their experience in
(15:59):
their environment. In kindergarten,
we have children draw pictures as theyget older. They can draw, they can write,
but it's this idea that it's anongoing process for me to name out
what I need to be fully present.And oftentimes they're going to say
things that are pretty critical.
It's almost always criticalto be honest with you,
(16:21):
but I would say that'sa core component of UDL.
We're allowing students to reflect onwhat they need so they can name it for
themselves, and then we canthen design that space together.
And along the way, we havekids that name, you know what?
I need the manipulatives to be closer.
That will not come about at the startof me asking about access needs,
(16:42):
but we did a lesson and it wasnot close by. They'll tell me.
So it's really arounddesigning an environment where they can fully participate
and be their full selves and feel a senseof belonging. So that's one example.
Another one that we've been doingis teachers and kids who have
traditionally not participated the mostin our classrooms or have even engaged
(17:04):
in pullout intervention. And we'llhave them walk around school telling us
about their day.
Will you walk me through your day andtell me how you feel in each of these
spaces and what are yourexperiences like? And again,
we're allowing the studentsto name out what they need,
and then they're naming out.
Oftentimes with the students thatwe're at where I'm working in mostly
multilingual spaces, they'llsay, oh, I love this teacher.
(17:26):
She allows us to speak inSpanish in the room. Okay,
so that's going back to ideasof action expression engagement,
where students areallowed to trans language.
That's when the language principles,
but we're allowing students andproviding spaces and really paying
close attention to how do we decidehow to maximize participation for our
(17:47):
students With these set of UL guidelines,
how we are able to listen and makecertain decisions on how we can strengthen
their participation, their senseof belonging in our classrooms.
I think what's lovely aboutboth of those examples,
asking them to write ordraw what they need or the
description of, let'swalk through the day,
let's walk through the different spacesthat you learn in or the humans that you
(18:10):
learn with is one.
It really is listening to them and tryingto make meaning of that and using that
as your starting point.
I think the other piece is that itmakes me think that it's something that
happens over time. It might shift,
you might gain more clarity around thethings that students need or they might
gain more clarity around thethings that they need over time,
(18:33):
and those might shift a little bit, orit might come into greater focus like,
I thought I needed this,or I think I needed this,
but what I really meant was this.
There's this opportunity for kidsto refine their needs and for
educators to think about thatand the designs that they create.
I really appreciate you namingthat because it's all of that.
(18:55):
It's an ongoing process where we'rebuilding a relationship with our students
for us to co-design whateffective teaching looks like,
that it's not a one size fits all.
It's disrupting this idea thatwhat works for one works for all.
It's around supporting our studentsto name out what they need.
I'm almost 50. I struggle toname out what I need sometimes,
(19:17):
so it's not going to happen inone time. It's an ongoing process,
and in what we need is linked tocontext, so it has to be ongoing,
but there's also in the moments as well,
and it's the heart ofgood teaching and math.
When you allow students to solve problemsin the ways that make sense to them,
that's UDL by design that's honoringthe ideas of multiplicity and action
(19:38):
expression.
When you might give context based problemand you take the numbers away and you
give a set of number choicesthat students get to choose from.
That is also this idea of UDL becausethere's multiple ways for them to engage.
So there are also little things thatwe do that note how they're just
effective teaching,
but we're honoring this ideathat children should have agency,
(20:03):
all children can engagein doing mathematics,
and part of learning mathematics isalso supporting our students to see the
brilliance in themselves and toleverage that in their own teaching and
learning.
Something else that really occurredto me as we've been talking is the
difference between the way we'vebeen talking about centering students
(20:25):
needs and asking them to help usunderstand them and the process
that kind of kicks off.
I think what strikes me is that it'sactually opening up the possibilities of
what might happen or the ways that astudent could be successful as opposed
to this notion that you'reneurodiverse, you fit in this bucket.
(20:45):
There's a set of strategiesthat going to do just for you,
and those strategies might actuallylimit or constrict the options you have.
For example, in terms of mathematics,
what I remember happening very oftenwhen I was teaching is I would create an
open space for students to think aboutways that they could solve problems.
And at the time,
(21:06):
often what would happen is kids who werecharacterized as neurodiverse wouldn't
get access to those same strategies.
It would be kind of the idea that thisis the way we should show them how to do
it. It just strikes me howdifferent that experience is.
I suspect that that was donewith the best of intentions,
but I think the impact unfortunatelyprobably really didn't match the
(21:28):
intent.
I love how you're being honest. As I didthe same thing when I was teaching too,
because we were often instructed toengage in whole group instruction and
probably do a small group pullout.That was how I was taught.
And when the same kids are repeatedlypulled out because we're saying that
they're not able toengage in the instruction,
(21:50):
I think the part of uudL is uud L as a process,
realizing that if studentsare not engaging fully in the ways that we had hoped,
instead of trying to fix the child,
we look at the environment and thinkabout what changes we need to make in tier
one. So whole group instruction,
whole group participation first to seehow we can maximize their participation.
(22:12):
And it's not one strategy because itdepends. It really depends. I think of,
for example, with a group ofteachers in California and Texas now,
we've been looking at how we cantrack participation in whole group
settings, and we look at themacross social demographics,
and then we started to notice thatwhen we promote multimodal whole group
(22:34):
participation,
like kids have access to manipulativeseven during whole group share out,
or they have visuals that they can pointto their participation and who gets to
participate drastically increase.So there's many ways in which
by nature, we engage in somenarrow practices because too,
oftentimes whole group discussion isalmost completely verbal and at times
(22:58):
written and usually the teacher's writing.
So it's going back to the idea of can welook at what we want our students to do
at that moment? So starting onthe math concept and practices,
but then looking at our students andwhen they're not participating fully,
it's not them.
What are the UDL principles and thingsthat I know and strategies that I have
(23:19):
with my colleagues that Ican make some small shifts.
One of the things that I enjoy most aboutthe podcast is that we really can take
a deep dive into some big ideas,
and the limitation is we have 20minutes to perhaps a half hour,
and I suspect there are a lot of peoplewho are trying to make meaning of what
we're talking about and thinkingabout how might I follow up?
(23:41):
How might I take actionon some of the ideas?
So I want to turn just fora little while to resources,
and I'm wondering if there are resourcesthat you would suggest for a listener
who wants to continue learning aboutuniversal design in a mathematics
classroom?
Oh my goodness, that's sucha hard question. So many, some good ones. Overall,
I would definitely encourage folksto dive into the UDL guidelines.
(24:02):
The 3.0 updates. They're amazing.
They're so joyful andtransformative that they even have,
one of the principles is centering joyin play, and for us to imagine that,
right?
Yes.
What does that mean to dothat in a math classroom?
We can name out 50 different ways.So how often do we get to see that?
(24:23):
I would highly encouragefolks to download that,
engage in deep discussion because it wasa 2.2 version for I think quite a few
years.
I would also lean into a resourcethat I'm glad to email later on.
It's more easily accessible.I talked about access needs,
this idea of asking students,asking community members,
(24:44):
asking folks to give this opportunityto name out what they need.
It's written by a colleague,
Dr. Daniel Reinhold andDr. Samantha Richway.
It's a lovely reading and it focusesspecifically in STEM that I think it's a
great place to read.
I would say that Dr. Rachel Lambert'snew book on UD L Math is an excellent
read.
(25:04):
It's a great joyful read to think about.I'm going to give one shout out to the
book called The Year of the Tiger andActivist Life. It's by Alice Wong.
I encourage that because how oftendo we put the word activism next to
disability? And Alice Wong is one ofthe most amazing humans in the world,
and it's a graphic novel.So it's just joyful.
It's words with poetry and graphicnovel mixed together to see the
(25:29):
life of what it means to be a disabledactivist and how activism and disability
goes hand in hand. Because when youare disabled and multi marginalized,
you are often advocating foryourself and others. It's amazing.
So I'll stop there.There's endless amounts.
So for listeners,
we'll link the resources that C wastalking about in our show notes.
(25:51):
I could keep going, but I think thisis probably a great place to stop.
I want to thank you somuch for joining us.
It's really been apleasure talking with you.
Thank you. Thank you.
This podcast is brought to you by theMath Learning Center and the Meyer Math
Foundation dedicated to inspiring andenabling all individuals to discover
(26:12):
and develop their mathematicalconfidence and ability.
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