December 17, 2024 • 52 mins
In This episode, Curtis is joined by his long-time friends Steph and Dale Schaeffer.
They discuss the challenges of caring for aging parents, the importance of having difficult conversations about health and care, and the emotional toll of being part of the sandwich generation. Steph and Dale reflect on the impact of COVID-19 on caregiving, the necessity of community support, and the moments of joy found amidst the hardship Steph losing both of her parents weeks apart.
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CHAPTERS
1:45 Sick Parents and Grieving Their Loss
6:10 Having Hard Conversations About Caring For Aging Parents
11:45 When Mom goes to a Nursing Home and Dad is in Hospital
15:03 Dealing With Home Life When Your Spouse is Away Helping Ailing Parents
23:44 Strain on the Marriage
28:46 How To Help When It's Hard
31:50 Ministry Before Tragedy Versus Ministry After
36:15 A New Boldness
39:12 Unpacking Matthew 8
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Curtis (00:28):
Hi everybody, welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast.
This podcast was literally puttogether because I'm a griever.
Two years ago, my beautiful wife,Michael, passed away tragically
from a rare cancer, four weeks.
She was gone, and Michael had a uniqueview on life though, life and death,
and on her deathbed, she literallylooked at the children and I and said,
(00:53):
I want you guys to run to the hard,and run to the hurt, for it's in the
greatest hard that God's gonna do.
The greatest work and because of hermantra, that's how this podcast began
is, is that I have just been over thelast six months, breathing out my story
and her story and, grieving and figuringout what next steps of life look like.
(01:17):
Well, I'm two years in now and.
I'm still searching, looking,interested in other people's stories.
And I've begun to bring guests on whoare helping me continue this process
of grieving, understanding what otherpeople have gone through, what other
circumstances people have gone through.
And so today I've got long time friends,people I've known forever, uh, Steph
(01:41):
and Dale Schaefer with me today.
And we're gonna, we're gonna dive intoa little bit different of a topic.
We're gonna talk about dealing with agingparents and even the death of a parent.
It's relevant, it's real, we're childrenof parents, and it's gonna happen.
And so, Steph and Dale,welcome to the program today.
(02:01):
I know it's not the, you know, thekind of program that we're just
jumping for joy to be a part of, butI'm so glad you, you came aboard.
Thank you.
Dale and Steph (02:10):
Thanks for the invite, Curtis.
We appreciate the opportunityto talk about a topic that's
really, really important.
And I feel like it givesyou an opportunity to honor
the person and their story.
And so we're really grateful forthat opportunity today as well.
I think, you know, as I thinkabout, um, Michael's story, I'm so
thankful for the way that you'rehonoring her story with this podcast.
(02:34):
And I love her authenticity.
And that's kind of our hope in thisconversation today, that we'd honor
her story by being authentic, about thestory that we've got to share today.
And so thanks for giving usthe opportunity to do that.
Curtis (02:47):
No, I appreciate it.
Stuff just kind of takeus into when mom got sick.
some of the struggles.
Cause you guys lived in Florida.
Dale and Steph (02:54):
well,, when the struggles first began, we actually
were in Oregon, my dad was havingmore ins and outs of hospital stays
when we were living in Oregon.
But mom's, dementia actuallystarted when we were in Oregon and
my dad would call and he'd be like,Hey, I need you to talk to mom.
Like something's going on.
It's not right.
(03:14):
She's like just being really,just verbally combative actually
like just kind of like she justis getting mad really easy.
So that really expedited into2019 when we moved to Florida.
I was getting calls almost daily toevery other day of like trying to talk
mom off the ledge or then she'd callme and said, your dad, like it just,
(03:37):
it was kind of a lot of back and forth.
My mom came in September to visit.
Like I flew her down here.
I'm like, I gotta, I gotta see withmy own eyes what, what's going on.
And I was seeing like she wasn'tremembering certain things.
She, you know, honestly, when I pickedher up from the airport, I had to go in.
And when I went in to pick her up, Igot all the way up to where I could
(03:58):
see her coming off of the plane.
And she actually tripped and sheliterally launched herself forward
into a wall, like she just was veryclumsy and not remembering things.
And so I was able to put my eyes onmy mom and see something's not Right.
She went back and it was still a lot ofevery other day calls calming her down.
(04:24):
Things that she wouldsee on TV were real life.
Like there is like, you know, astory, a news story about a fire.
And she's like, you know,what's going to happen.
There's going to be a fire.
We can't go to sleep.
Like just really paranoidabout everything.
And then the world started to shutdown and yeah, I mean that was the
wild part early 2020 and then inFebruary of 2020 she actually went
(04:49):
For another hospital stay ended up.
We had to take her to a psych hospitalto really see She wasn't responding.
She wasn't Taking her meds.
She was really just Reallyoverly paranoid about everything.
Yeah, I think the paranoia wasone of the hardest things to
watch, because that wasn't her.
Yeah, she'd always been real strong.
(05:11):
I mean, kind of silly andawful, but she wasn't paranoid.
She wasn't a paranoid person.
Um, she wasn't afraid of being alone.
She wasn't afraid of,like, doing things on her.
own.
But everything scared her, so anyway, byFebruary of 2020, she was out of the psych
hospital, but she was in a nursing home.
She hadn't completely forgot who everybodywas, but her mental state of mind,
(05:36):
she was beginning to forget things.
And those would causefights and issues at home.
And we, I was actually doing safetychecks on both my parents at different
times because I'm still so far removed.
My sisters couldn't get in or, youknow, one would be mad at another so
that they couldn't get in the house.
So I'm literally doing calls andsafety calls on my, on my family and
(06:00):
both their health were starting to
Curtis (06:03):
you have to, Did you have to, come spend some time in Michigan at all?
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (06:07):
I did, they just didn't have a handle on things.
My mom had been paying bills, butbecause of where her mind was going,
she wasn't, so dad didn't know.
so in 19, I like, literally wentthere, started doing all their
bills, figuring things out, andthen I just brought everything.
We just made sure my name wason everything, I brought it home
Curtis (06:24):
let me just talk about that for a second because that's a that's a really
big deal and and as a You know as a sonYou know, I think it's important that all
of us have that conversation with a parentat some point Would you agree with that?
Like who's in charge or who's goingto be in charge if X Y Z happens?
(06:45):
I think that's I thinkthat's kind of a big deal
Dale and Steph (06:48):
getting that established before they don't have their mindset
to have clear conversations becausethen it seems as though you're leading
it and trying to push them that way.
And if you have siblings,that's not always something
your siblings look fond upon.
Um, so.
So, you know, having thoseconversations early and even having
(07:10):
some of the documentation, um, Imean, they had already put me on
bank accounts and stuff like that.
So, that wasn't hard, but justhaving those, that communication with
vendors or bill utilities or whatever,
Curtis (07:23):
at that point though, you were paying the bills.
You were in charge of finances for both.
Dale and Steph (07:29):
For both.
Yeah.
For the whole household.
That's hard because, you know, youget so You're, you're parenting your
parents and you, you are now in what'scalled that sandwich generation.
You're, you're the sandwich person And
and it starts off like, oh, I'm just beinghelpful, but it gets increasingly hard.
Curtis (07:51):
just to help people understand, mom and dad were
not that old at this point.
How how old were they?
Dale and Steph (07:56):
63
Curtis (07:58):
Yeah, and that's, that's the part I wanted to share
because we just don't know when.
Dale and Steph (08:03):
Yeah.
Curtis (08:04):
And, and we can't just keep putting it off and putting it off.
These are conversationsthat we, we have to have.
I hate them.
Dale and Steph (08:09):
I think that's
Curtis (08:11):
I hate having these conversations.
Dale and Steph (08:13):
I think you have to have the conversation early, you know, and
don't assume that it's something thatyou can delay until someone's 70 or 80.
You know, I'd, if I've got parentsthat are in their sixties, we need
to be having some conversation.
Hey, what are your plans in the future?
If, if your health begins to fail,what are we going to do here?
And can we try and make Sure.
we're getting all on the same page?
(08:34):
And if there are siblings, Bringthem in because that was a hard, that
was a hard part for us as my, my dadand mom didn't bring my siblings in.
And so from, from the start, Iam, I'm fighting battles that
I shouldn't have to be fighting
Curtis (08:51):
It's hard enough what you have to do.
You don't need to be fighting at the same
Dale and Steph (08:54):
Like, I mean, me and my one sister, we weren't, I
mean, neither one of my sisterswere we even communicating.
And not until almost a year anda half in did one of them, I just
said, we've got to figure this out.
Like, I think you have a misunderstandingof what I'm being asked of.
I don't think dad was completelyclear with you versus me.
And we sat in our front yard forthree hours and hashed it out.
(09:15):
And, you know, we talk now andshe understands that, like, I
was being given some information.
She was being, cause my daddidn't like confrontation.
My mom did, but my dad did not.
It's truth to that.
So, like, but we hashed out, I'mlike, we have to be together if
we're going to be there and honorour parents and that is primary.
(09:36):
And so, you know, that has helpedthat relationship, but getting
everybody on the same page, howuncomfortable it may be is huge.
Curtis (09:49):
So, you know, mom turns, mom turns 80 this year.
I don't know if you knewthat next month she turns 80.
That's, I
Dale and Steph (09:55):
goodness.
she's
Curtis (09:56):
probably gonna be mad.
She's gonna be mad that I saidit out loud, but it's, it's true.
What made me think of is that, youknow, mom's had two bouts of cancer
and, you know, that first bout,you know, it was rough and, um,
having to start those conversations.
So, The the problem for most of us thatis we never have those conversation
conversations until there's an actualevent And it's like this event Causes
(10:21):
us to have these conversations, but whatabout people who don't get a chance?
You know the event doesn't allow them tohave the chance to have the conversation
And so if we could put it up for avote how many says that we need to
have these conversations ahead of time?
Dale and Steph (10:35):
absolutely.
Curtis (10:36):
So I don't know that's what that's what crossed my mind because mom and
I have had a lot of conversations likethat And we we have a plan Um, it stinks.
I hate I hate talking that way um whatyou what you may or may not know is um
The weekend of the funeral of michael'sfuneral mom got covid really bad And
(10:57):
she was so hurt that she couldn't beat the funeral and she called me the
day before and said, son, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sick.
I cannot be there to support you.
And, um, I remember saying, mom, don'tyou die this weekend on Michael's funeral?
Like, like, are you serious right now?
I can't, I can't do this.
(11:19):
You know what I mean?
Um, but, but those are, those arereal conversations we really had.
And so.
I don't know.
That was my thought is like, if somebodyis listening to this and they haven't
had an event yet that forces them todo this, man, start talking about it.
Start having the conversations.
It you'll be glad you did.
Well, keep going.
(11:42):
Cause I know the story getsharder and harder and harder.
Oh,
Dale and Steph (11:46):
in 2020, she went into the nursing home.
And, Between, 2020 and her passing in2022, there was a lot of trips back and
forth, um, there was a lot of phone calls,um, she's still dealing with paranoia
and having to work with the nursing homealmost every day to just get her to eat.
(12:08):
Her, her paranoia is intense.
She doesn't know what's goingon and the world shut down.
We can't go see her so everything ison video and so that in itself I think
actually kind of expedited things becausethere is so much That we couldn't do.
My dad, that's local, couldn't do, um,my siblings, my nieces and nephews,
(12:33):
they could not go see her becauseof everything being on lockdown.
So, you know, with the calls andshe just could not understand that.
Um, and so she just, she startedlike regressing and just kind
of shutting herself down, likerefusing to take more meds.
And so, um, You know, wetried to FaceTime a lot.
(12:53):
Um, I relied a lot on her, hercaregivers there to give me reports.
And, you know, they'dcall me to get her to eat.
Um, because she was justdwindling down to nothing.
She lost a lot, a lot of weight.
Um, and, and that's hard.
Like you see, you know, you, youwant to see and remember your
(13:15):
parent as they're aging and gettingelderly and also potentially.
You want to rememberthem as you knew them.
And in my young years,you know, she's strong.
She's engaged with probably everything.
And she likes to make people smile.
And just to see her laying in abed, it's hard, you know, watching
(13:38):
her not be that strong Marinethat I was always so proud of.
Um, and I love to tellpeople, my mom was a Marine.
Um, And to, so to seeher not be that person.
Um, but know that that's stillthat, that she is that person.
It's just different.
So hard.
(13:58):
Um, so she was in the nursing home.
There was, um, a lot of back andforth because my dad's health
also continued to deteriorate.
Um, and so he was inand out of the hospital.
And so I would go home.
to Michigan, um, sometimes for aweekend and sometimes for two weeks.
(14:21):
And then it kept increasing to threeweeks and sometimes a month at a time,
you know, and in our own home, youthink, okay, I've got to go do this.
So I'm going to hit the pausebutton here and everything's going
to pause because I've been dealingwith the hard in another state.
(14:41):
It doesn't pause.
Everything doesn't pause.
Everything keeps going.
Everything, everything else still hasmovement and still has emotion and
still has deadlines and, and needs.
Um, but I couldn't be here.
And so that happened multipletimes with dad's health.
(15:02):
Um,
Curtis (15:03):
Dale, tell me about that because your wife, you got three daughters, your
wife's gone sometimes weeks at a time.
What, what's it look like?
Dale and Steph (15:14):
Yeah, I was reflecting on this with Steph, um,
before we jumped on with you andI'm a, I'm a real reflective person.
So I journal and I think about myexperiences and I'm, I'm always trying
to evaluate my experience and makemyself better, make our family better.
And so if you go to my journal up untilyour mom went into care, um, there's
(15:36):
almost daily Post in my journal rightof reflection on what's happening
and getting ready to talk with you.
I looked at I said So what wasI journaling during this window?
And here's what I discovered Curtisbetween Her father's decline.
So her mom's been in care foralmost a year at this point.
So this would have been early2021 and now her dad's failing.
(16:00):
Uh, there's a cancer diagnosis.
He's going on dialysis.
All this is like running concurrently.
It's just heavy stuff.
And, uh, in January of 2021, Istopped journaling when she flew
to Michigan to be with her dad.
And I didn't journal again until ayear and a half later when they both
passed within five weeks of each other.
Curtis (16:21):
Really?
Dale and Steph (16:22):
I didn't journal once during that season in And that's,
that's a window into what was goingon in our household during that time.
There was, there was just this sense we'retrying to keep our heads above water.
We're trying to do right byher parents and everything we
can to like so much energy.
(16:43):
You only have so much energy, right?
And now you're taking, I'd say, 35percent of our energy, maybe 40 percent
of our energy, maybe more was going tosupporting her parents during that time.
And then the rest of it, Imean, everything that was non
essential got shut down, right?
Uh, recreation, self care, you know,all those things that you think
(17:06):
of as non essential that are veryessential, they get shut out and
you're just going day to day to day.
Um, Yeah.
I wish, I wish I journaledduring that time.
So it was a lot of just tryingto make sure our girls were
where they needed to be.
Right.
We had two girls in highschool during that time.
Uh, one was a senior in highschool and another one was,
(17:28):
uh, a sophomore at that time.
And they're struggling.
Um, they're, they'rereally spinning and then.
Mom's gone.
Yeah.
mom's gone.
And it's me and them.
And then the last year of herparents health, it was mom's gone.
And Brenna, our middle was awayat all of that at school, right?
And the youngest one, you know,she she doesn't have her mom here.
(17:51):
And her sister who's beenher best friend isn't here.
And she's with her dad.
And I'm trying to be Mom, dad, andsibling, right, and, and fill all
these gaps in her life, um, that wasprobably the hardest, I think the hardest
season that we've had in, in life andministry was that season from when her,
(18:11):
both of her parents really started todecline until they passed, and they
passed within five weeks of each other.
It was, yeah, almost threeand a half, but Yeah.
but yeah, but Yeah, so lots oftaking sweet stuff to the airport and
managing the household and all that.
Curtis (18:24):
I use the word capacity like there's just no more capacity.
You are you are tapped out Allright, Steph hard question It seems
like as I talk to other friendswho have experienced this kind of
thing It's almost like somebodygets stuck drawing the short stick
Dale and Steph (18:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it kind of feels that way.
Yeah.
it can, but in the same sense,there's so much, this is gonna sound
really weird, but there's actuallyso much that I cherish, and, and,
you know, found joy in being inthis space with my parents because I
was able to honor them in that way.
I knew their wishes and even though Igot the short stick and had to do the
(19:08):
hard, I wouldn't want to be anywhere elseand I wouldn't want to question whether
or not somebody else was making Sure.
their wishes were there,were being fulfilled.
And so, yes and no.
Like, you The hard days and the timeswhere you're trying to have some normalcy
(19:29):
and you know Go out with your husbandand play disc golf and your phone
rings and you're like, I got a call anambulance I'm so sorry like like I'm
sorry our games done and you know, youcontinue on I gotta go go to the car and
figure This out, you know or whatever.
I don't think I continued on.
No But like Like, those are, those aremoments that, um, I was also reflecting
(19:53):
on some of what I was journalingand, you know, regardless that the
moments were hard, they're the onlymoments that we get in that season.
And so even if they're hard, andeven if they, honestly, they suck,
Curtis (20:08):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (20:08):
that's really what they are, they just suck,
you don't want to be there,
Curtis (20:12):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (20:13):
but that's the moment we get, and I don't want to miss those
moments, regardless how hard they are.
So, I would take the shortstick again if I had to.
Um, I was able to walk those roadswith both of my parents all the
way to the end, and, and be Right.
by their side, and that in itself is hard.
Um, you know, Mom, Mom was on,um, hospice care for over a year.
(20:39):
Um, and in that, in that time, Dadended up in the hospital, and then,
um, Not very many people, but you know,like they have an underground home.
So I had to work very hard with,with the physician saying there
is no way he can go back home.
He cannot care for himself.
(21:00):
And unless I were to move him withme or me move there with him, like
I have siblings, but he needs roundthe clock care that he cannot get.
And so he cannot go back home.
It's unsafe.
Um, and we worked hard and he endedup also in a nursing home and they're
(21:20):
at now at two different nursinghomes So that you're like working
with different care teams and tryingto keep that straight and then he
ended up He did have a cancer scare.
It wasn't cancer, but they he didhave a cancer scare But he ended
up also having to start dialysis.
So Also then working with a dialysisteam and that cared during a time where
(21:46):
transportation was not great during COVIDto get a six six man into whatever car
they're using as their medical transport.
And so like I had to leave heavily.
Yeah.
I had to, you know, rely heavily onone of my aunts that drove in the area
(22:06):
and see if I could get her to helpdrive or, you know, then my sibling,
cause all of a sudden drivers justweren't showing up to pick him back
up from hospice care or from dialysisto take him back to the nursing home.
And so his health justkept declining as Well.
Um, and ultimately dialysis, um,Wasn't working and we had to make
(22:26):
that tough decision with him whetherto continue or not to continue
and those are hard conversationsbecause And you end up being the person
who's having those hard conversations.
It's like I have to bring this up and asAs your kid, you, you, you want your, your
parents to have the hard conversation.
(22:47):
You don't want them, but youexpect your parents to be having
the hard conversations with you.
Not you having to bring this up,being like, dad, I know you don't
want to do this, but do you realizeif you don't, what this means?
Um, and even though if you continuethe outcome, is the same, um, that's
(23:10):
hard, you know, and I was able todo that, but it was not easy, and it
was not because, like, I had all theknowledge and the strength to do it.
It was only because I had, you know,my spouse, people that love me, um,
God that I trust in, and he's beenfaithful, um, to help me walk those
(23:32):
roads, and my, and my, my dad's sisters.
So those are, those are the ways that.
I was able to have those conversations,but they're still so hard.
It's so
hard.
Curtis (23:44):
so you're married.
You're in two different states a lot.
There's still kids growing up,going to college, going through high
school, like another tough question,but you know, what's this do to
a, what's this do to a marriage?
Where does your strength come from?
How do you make it work?
Dale and Steph (24:07):
It's hard.
I mean, it's, it was alot of conversations.
I told Dale it was I mean likesomething's got to change.
Um, I feel like we're both, but Ifeel like we're going around like
the sticks with the plates on thetop and you're like spinning them
and you go to the next one and you'respinning them and you're spinning them.
Like, I feel like there's 12 and oneof them's gonna crash and I don't know
(24:31):
which one it's gonna be, but it can'tbe us and it can't be our family.
But some things have to go by thewayside at this point where we're at.
Um.
Because it's just too much AndI you know, I really limited
travel during that season.
So Something that had started to buildup before that was I was speaking in
(24:54):
churches and doing some travel and duringthe season really didn't Do travel I've
only opened that up in the last coupleof years and that had to go, you know
It couldn't continue to happen and Hadto get some help in the office, Right.
That's when Mark joined our teamand having Mark on the team in
that window was a grace, right?
(25:15):
You, uh, you gotta, you know,you gotta have a village, right?
You gotta have a team around you thatare helping to be God's grace to you
if you're gonna keep things going.
So you had, one of the things I loveis you had great care providers.
You had one gal in particularwho just was, she was an angel.
Yeah.
She was an absolute angel.
And, I mean, Went above and beyondwhat her job description was to
(25:40):
support your mom during that season.
Um, I don't know how we would have,would have got through it without her.
So, you know, our relationship'simportant, but our relationship
doesn't stay strong without otherpeople helping bring strength to us.
Right?
So we had strength that came from careproviders who were a grace of God.
Um, we had strength from congregants thatwe have worshiped with for decades, right?
(26:03):
That are not in Florida with us,but they're, they're sending us
text messages and praying with us.
Um, when we see them and visitwith them, they're praying for us.
They're calling us and reaching out.
Um, I had a group of about four guysthat, I mean, it was, it was probably
every week they were texting me.
Um, let me know they're praying for me andcommunicating with me, um, helping to keep
(26:24):
my head on right as to how to support you.
One of them, uh, John had a spousewho was dealing with a mom who
had dementia at the same time.
And so, you know, John's friendship wasa grace to me that helped me to be a
better husband to my wife because I hadanother guy that was in the same space
and because we were kind of in that samespace and he was like a step ahead of me.
(26:46):
I was learning things that Iwouldn't have known otherwise.
And I just can't emphasize enoughthe importance of having that
broader community to strengthen you.
I can't imagine trying to dothis with just The two of us.
No.
Um, We had another, uh, friend thatwas, is also a colleague and, and
she was close with me and, She dideventually be, was local and, and she
(27:13):
would check, would check on us and shekind of knew the really, the really
ugly, um, that not everybody got tosee that we were trying to manage.
She got to see
Curtis (27:27):
the
real deal.
Dale and Steph (27:28):
She got to see the other areas and hair that were running
out like she got to see the ugly
Curtis (27:34):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (27:35):
If she didn't not just the ugly like with Karen for your parents
But the ugly of how this impacts a localfamily a family right like how it impacts
our household how it impacts our girls Andand I think you've got to have at least
one person or a couple people that I meanThey know what's really going on right?
There's there's nothing hidden.
There's not secrets.
We're transparent You And, and we're safe.
(27:57):
Yeah.
Like, all of those things matter.
And that's how we've always triedto do ministry, but then when it
gets to be, like, in Every day.
you're like, Yeah.
I can ask people to pray for mewhen things get tough, but I'm
like, these, these are daily things.
Like, I feel like I'm coming toyou and like, sometimes you feel
like such a burden because you'resharing so heavily, but you're like,
(28:18):
I have to have somebody that I knowis praying and sincerely knows.
the impact of everything that we're goingthrough not just a hey again this month.
Can you pray for us?
There's a lot of people that say, you knowYou need to be in counseling during space
like this or support groups, and I thinkthose are good things, I want to be clear.
(28:39):
I believe that but I also believe thatthere is there's nothing that takes
the place of spiritual friendship
Curtis (28:45):
Yeah.
One of the things, you know, one ofthe things that we keep challenging
people through this is that, man,I was blessed with such an amazing
support group of people, you know, mychurch, my buds, my neighbors, like
just poured in, poured in, poured in.
And I just, I keep challengingpeople, you know, we all know somebody
(29:05):
going through stuff like this.
We just do.
We all know somebody going throughstuff like this and and and people are
always saying things like I don't knowI don't know what to do do something
Dale and Steph (29:16):
do something yeah,
Curtis (29:17):
Like do something just show up You keep you know, I told Chris was asking me.
I'm one of the podcast.
He said Tell me what a friend should do.
And I said, never stop asking justbecause I'm in the thick of grief
and I don't want to go to breakfastwith you today, or I don't, I don't
want you to come by the house.
(29:37):
I don't need food today.
That doesn't mean it's a one and done.
Like, don't stop.
I'm not turning you away permanently.
I'm turning you away today.
Just today, I just need space today,but you better show up tomorrow and
you better show up the next day andyou better show up the third day and
you better show up the fourth day andyou better show up a year from now.
If you want to know how to be a friendto somebody going through stuff,
(30:00):
you just keep showing up because youcan't get offended if they didn't
need you that day or didn't, or justdidn't have the capacity to have
a conversation or two or whatever.
And so, I don't know, justyou sharing that just in.
Helps me want to remind peopleto just keep asking, keep showing
(30:20):
up, keep, keep offering a hand.
Um, that's all that, that'sall that got me through.
And that's what you're saying too,is that your people showed up.
Dale and Steph (30:29):
Yeah.
I'd say, like, definitely the peopleshowed up and it's not, like you said,
it's not that the counseling was bad,like, but I didn't have, like you
said, I didn't have the capacity.
Yes.
Do anything more or spin one more plate.
That's right.
Or to check a box.
Like, I did go to counseling, but itwasn't until after some of those other
plates stopped spinning, not necessarilybecause they crashed, but because that
(30:52):
season of that plate spinning was done.
And so I just, Not to say don't docounseling, but definitely don't push
away your village or your people.
Invite them into the ugly spaceand the hard space that you're in.
Yeah.
And I think one of the reasons we hadpeople show up for us is, I can't say
this about me, but I can say this aboutyou because you're incredible at this
(31:14):
is, uh, Steph is someone who is a friend.
And she's a friend at all times, right?
And so she was investing in otherpeople before she was at a place where
she needed people to invest in her.
And I think when you live your lifethat way, where you're pouring into
others, you position yourself for asense of reciprocity that comes when
(31:34):
you find yourself at that point of need.
And so we're all going to findourselves facing hard things.
If, if we're gonna have the gracewe need from others during that
time, then we have to be a graceto others before that time for us.
And that's, I, you were that.
You just did that so well.
Curtis (35:29):
Growth.
I use that word loosely, but I'mtrying to grow out of this experience.
Like.
Like what's God doing, you know?
Michael gave us that mantrathat really happened.
She literally told us don't shy awayfrom this go cry your guts out do
(35:51):
whatever you have to do, but don'tshy away from this She said dive into
it cry hurt do as much as you can butdon't shy away from the hard things and
she challenged the kids and I both andI've done that You I feel like I've,
I've tried to go in and I'm saying,Lord, what, what do you want to do?
(36:11):
What are you trying to teach mein the hardest of hard places?
And so my question is, is growth.
You know, you guys have been in ministry.
Tell me about ministry beforetragedy and ministry after.
Dale and Steph (36:28):
I think, uh, and I think most, I think most people understand
this, but, um, pain, difficulty,suffering, it transforms you, right?
and it either makes you hardenedin your heart, Or it makes you, um,
receptive to see other people andhave great empathy for them, right?
And I think the biggest thing that itdid, um, for me personally in ministry
(36:52):
was it increased my capacity for empathy.
Right?
I think until you've personally suffered,it's very difficult to display empathy or
really feel empathy for another person.
It is, it's really only after.
you've been through it yourself.
That you find yourself ableto empathize effectively.
I think that's especially truefor, for people that are like
(37:13):
leadership kind of mindset, right?
Um, you know, I'm not a,like, I'm an Enneagram, right?
I'm an Enneagram 8, which is hardcharger, driver, like, let's take
the hill, let's go, you know?
Like, who cares who gets left behind?
Let's go, we got a mountainto climb, you know?
They're back there because they're slow.
I mean, that's the way my head works.
They stub their toe and then they stop.
(37:34):
But we're gonna keep going.
But they need to learn how to walk betterif they're stubbing their toe, you know?
That's, that's how my head works.
And, and this experience in ministryhas given me a great deal of empathy
for people who are suffering andfighting a battle in the midst
of trying to do ministry as well.
So I'm way more empatheticwith our pastors.
I'm way more empathetic with, uh,board members that I'm working with
(37:57):
who are fighting significant battlesthat got all the plates spinning.
And there's more than, than growing achurch to, uh, To what they are called
to do in that place and and I'm it's it'sreally helped me right to move to a more
Pastoral care approach to ministry and not
Curtis (38:16):
No, that's good.
That's good.
Dale and Steph (38:18):
I Don't know.
What would you say in ministry howit's how it's transformed ministry for
Curtis (38:21):
Or in life, I mean,
Dale and Steph (38:24):
Well, I think there, I mean, we've always, like I said
earlier, we've always done ministry.
We've tried to be transparent about howwe go about doing and being in ministry.
It's helped me to be more open to not justbe behind the scenes saying, Hey, we're in
ministry together and I'm beside you andyou're the speaker and you're the voice.
(38:48):
I've, I wanted to, in what I wrote,I wrote, I want to, No, matter what,
I want to point people back to Jesusand how I Talk to them, um, interact
with them, um, do things for them.
But it wasn't until just recently, likeI can have one on one conversations, but
(39:11):
I don't want to be the upfront person.
I don't want to necessarily be talkingabout this in a group full of DS spouses
that I just did, um, actually in Septemberthat I never, ever thought I would do.
Um, Or being on stage with him talkingabout experiences or even doing a
podcast and sharing experiences It'sjust I want to be transparent, but
(39:35):
I've wanted to always be the privatetransparent Like you lead I support
but I'm I'm slowly finding that.
I have a little bit of a voice I'mnot afraid to share Maybe still afraid
to share but I'm willing to share
and
Curtis (39:51):
that's good because yeah, Dale, you know, I've never had a issue with
being out front or beingbold or being right,
Dale and Steph (40:03):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Curtis (40:04):
but, but this has just amped it up to another level.
Of, and I'm not, I'm nottalking, I'm not talking about
work or coaching or teaching.
I'm talking about my boldness for Christ.
My boldness to share.
I tell people, I mean,just random strangers.
(40:25):
Yeah, I'm a widower,lost my wife to cancer.
God's helping me.
I mean, I just, I just go there.
I make more people cry in like thegrocery store or the restaurant.
I was at a concert the other night andthe lady beside me was like, You know,
do you have somebody in the concert?
And I was like, yeah, it's actuallysoon to be my stepdaughters.
(40:46):
You know, my soon to be wifeis a widow and I'm a widower.
And I mean, I had her in tears in seconds.
I just, I just go there, but it's,but it's not for the purpose of
going there to make it hard for them.
It's the, it's thisboldness of, I can do this.
I can be so bold for Christ and sharehis goodness and what he's doing.
(41:08):
Even in the midst of the darkest.
And so I asked that question, you know,on purpose, cause I want people to hear
that, that we can go through this stuff.
And if we will really let God doa serious work in the middle of
(41:28):
this, we can do anything, right?
Dale and Steph (41:33):
I think that's, That's, it.
That's what
it did for you.
You became much more bold.
Yeah, and I think, not just formyself, but for my kids, and like
you said, Michael asked us of youand your kids, and if they can't see
you doing this, Then where are theygonna find themselves able to do that?
(41:54):
So in a way, it's still kind ofa coaching aspect for you to show
them they're strong enough to dothis as well at that right time.
Like it's taken me a while to get tothis point of even being able to talk
about it with a little bit of tears.
it's just not my comfortable place.
Like
Curtis (42:13):
Crying's part of it.
We're, we're going to cry.
Dale and Steph (42:16):
always, I cry.
This is the thing, yeah,she's a crier for sure.
I'm a crier over a lot of
Curtis (42:21):
It's okay.
It's okay.
I just, I don't need, I'm noteven ashamed of it anymore.
I just, I just let them out.
Yep.
Dale and Steph (42:29):
That's good.
More people need to be open to that.
But I think it helps the kids knowand be able to live into, you know,
what their moms ask them to do.
And
Curtis (42:40):
Sure.
Dale and Steph (42:41):
to reflect on that, that you're able to show that as well to them.
They're, it's not easy, um, butyou're running into the heart
and I think that's important.
Curtis (42:51):
Hey Dale, I, um, I asked you about that chapter in Matthew the other day.
I said, Hey, let's,
Dale and Steph (42:58):
Oh Yeah
Curtis (42:59):
let's unpack that a little bit because I hate that chapter.
I get the premise of itwhere Jesus is saying.
Leave your parents, let the dead bury thedead, be a follower of me, be my disciple.
I understand the premise behind it, butit's such a hard statement to swallow.
(43:22):
Help me unpack it.
Dale and Steph (43:24):
you know, it's, it's interesting.
Um, so some of the background on that,that's, that's, I think, important to
note is there's, there was one commandthat is kind of the chief command in the
Old Testament for God's people, right?
It's to love the Lord, your God.
With all your heart, with allyour mind and your soul, right?
It's the Shema passage out of Deuteronomyand everyone was trained in this.
(43:46):
I mean, they, they put it ondoorposts of their homes, right?
They wore jewelry thathad it printed on it.
You, you were never to forget to honorthe Lord, your God above like all else.
Right.
But interestingly, um, Um, there had beenan amendment to that and culturally within
(44:06):
Judaism leading up to the time of Christ,there, there was a, another teaching that
was brought in and the teaching was this,is that the number one thing you have to
do is bury your parents when they die.
This is interesting.
N.
T.
Wright goes, does a deep dive onto this.
So you have a responsibility to yourfather, particularly your father,
(44:27):
particularly your Um, above all else.
And so if anything else were tocome up, that gets set aside in
order to go bury your father.
And, uh, N.
T.
Wright says that what Jesus isdealing with here is he's pushing
back against this culture that saysthat family takes precedent over God.
Um, and it's a messianic statementon his part that he is God.
(44:51):
And so when he, when he says, youknow, Don't go bury your father.
I'm above all else.
It's a statement that this isa fulfillment of the Shema.
For you to follow me means thatyou are now loving God with
all your heart, mind, and soul.
And he wasn't setting himself upagainst family or the importance of
honoring parents, but he was settinghimself up as the son of the living God.
(45:16):
That helps me a little bit with that.
Yeah, he wasn't trying to,to divide my allegiances, but
he was trying to make Sure,
that it was understood that Christ is,is in fact God and following him means
that I'm fully committed to Christ.
But that's, that's a passage that, uh,has troubled me a lot too, brother.
Curtis (45:33):
sure.
Well, when we go through thesehard places, you know, we're, um,
and again, this is a statementthat's, that's hard to swallow,
but we try not to idolize the dead.
We try not to idolize.
We try not, I try not to idolize Michael.
Somebody, somebody said to me recently,it's, it's interesting that when our
(45:54):
someone passes away, they become greaterthan life in our minds and, and, and.
Dale and Steph (46:02):
ha.
Curtis (46:03):
go through that.
And I've tried not to idolize Michael.
I want people to know her message.
I want people to know what she challengedus with in the same token, not idolize
her and put her more important than Godin my relationship with God, God's using.
Our tragedies, he's using her death.
He's using that to, I hope better others.
(46:24):
I hope better her children.
I know she's challenged me.
She challenged me whenI was married to her.
It's a craziest thing that she's stillchallenging me when she's gone, but
that's just, that's the impact she left.
And her friends wouldtell you the same thing.
She was just.
That kind of a person, she justchallenged you to be better
in so many different ways.
(46:44):
I don't know that passage is alwaysI've always struggled with that
passage Not with the idea behind it.
God is number one But it'sjust this really hard cringy
feeling of wait a minute.
That's my parents You know what?
I mean, so that makes sense.
Dale and Steph (47:00):
Oh, it makes complete sense.
And it feels like it's, you know,it feels like it violates the,
the commandments as well, right?
To honor your father and mother.
Like that's, come on, we get,we're supposed to do that.
so
how do you, how do you wrestle with that?
And shouldn't I lead my family wellfirst and then lead others, other people?
Well, um, it seems like it makes sense.
(47:21):
I want to go back to like, when Iwere talking about the moments, the
only moments that we have and justone of the things that I had written
was, um, that God is, you know,Yahweh, God of the, God of the moment.
Um, God, you are, you are theGod of this moment and the
moments that I've not faced yet.
(47:42):
But in those moments you will also be.
You are here and you always have been.
Thank you so much for your faithfulness.
Curtis (47:51):
Hmm.
Dale and Steph (47:52):
I pray continually to give thanks in all circumstances, for this
is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
And that's from Thessalonians.
And I just, I wanted to just remember thatin all moments, that I was experiencing
and that I was going to experience.
Because that was, that wasleading into their weeks.
(48:14):
prior to their death, like,but I knew it was coming.
I'm just like, I want to know that andother people to know that you're God
and you're getting us through this andyou, you are and you will always be
what we need.
And I think that that needs toalways be because like I said,
(48:36):
I was, I was this sandwich.
I was, I was We're in this sandwichgeneration, and this sandwich, I
just felt like I was in, uh, GeorgeForeman, and they're just pushing this
grill down and squeezing me to death.
And I just, in those moments, I need toknow that, like, I've got my people, but
most importantly, I had God, and, andhe was always there, and he will always
(49:01):
be there, and even the moments that wewere, didn't even know were happening
in our own home, That he was present.
That he was present.
Curtis (49:10):
Well, guys, I sure appreciate you sharing.
You know, I started this podcast today,just kind of telling people that, you
know, I'm past year two and I feel likemy brain is starting to function again.
But with, with my brain functioningmeans I have more questions.
I have more
Dale and Steph (49:30):
hmm.
Mm
Curtis (49:31):
things I want to know, things I want to learn.
Um, I want to hear people's stories.
I want to know.
I want to know how they did it well.
Does that make
Dale and Steph (49:41):
hmm.
Yeah.
Curtis (49:42):
like It's easy to spot people who are stuck.
It's easy to spot peoplewho aren't doing it.
Well who they're crashing and burningunder the the pressure Uh, of all of
this, but I, I keep wanting to findpeople who did it well and have found
hope at the end of this hard road andthat at the end of the day can still
(50:04):
look to God and look to his goodnessand his faithfulness, uh, interviewed
a pastor friend recently and, um, youknow, he lost his four year old daughter.
And yet he could say God is good.
God is faithful.
God has always been good.
God's not bad.
Dale and Steph (50:22):
Right.
Curtis (50:23):
He, he loves us and cares for us in the darkest
and deepest moment of our life.
He's still there.
He's still carrying us.
He's still faithful.
And, and, um, that's where I wantto hang my hat each and every day.
Um, You know, it's tempting.
It's tempting to, you know, disappear.
(50:44):
It's tempting to,
Dale and Steph (50:46):
Yeah.
Curtis (50:47):
you know, try something else to make the pain go away.
But at the end of the day, I wantto keep looking to God and looking
to others who are doing it well.
And, and, uh, I watched you guysfrom afar and watched you go through
this and knew that you were faithfulto him and he was faithful to you
and he was pulling you through this.
So I'm glad that we got to reconnect.
(51:09):
And, um,
Dale and Steph (51:11):
Yeah, us too.
This has been, this has been reallygood, um, for us to be able to reflect
even on this more fully together.
I'm really grateful that you extendthe invite to say, Hey, would
you think about this with me?
Would you help us to tell a storyof, of how God's been faithful?
Cause he's been so good.
I, I, I can't get away from James four,six just says, but he gives more grace.
(51:34):
And it's this.
promise that in every circumstancein every season there's a sufficiency
of his grace that's adequate forthe need It gives more grace.
It's there.
We just have to receive it And and inthese spaces god is a god who gives
more grace to us and it's available.
Curtis (51:50):
Yeah, that's so good Thanks guys.
Thanks for your
time.
I appreciate
you.
Love you.
guys.
Dale and Steph (51:57):
Yeah, same
brother.
I love you, man
Hi everybody, welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast.
This podcast was literally puttogether because I'm a griever.
Two years ago, my beautiful wife,Michael, passed away tragically
from a rare cancer, four weeks.
She was gone, and Michael had a uniqueview on life though, life and death,
and on her deathbed, she literallylooked at the children and I and said,
(00:53):
I want you guys to run to the hard,and run to the hurt, for it's in the
greatest hard that God's gonna do.
The greatest work and because of hermantra, that's how this podcast began
is, is that I have just been over thelast six months, breathing out my story
and her story and, grieving and figuringout what next steps of life look like.
(01:17):
Well, I'm two years in now and.
I'm still searching, looking,interested in other people's stories.
And I've begun to bring guests on whoare helping me continue this process
of grieving, understanding what otherpeople have gone through, what other
circumstances people have gone through.
And so today I've got long time friends,people I've known forever, uh, Steph
(01:41):
and Dale Schaefer with me today.
And we're gonna, we're gonna dive intoa little bit different of a topic.
We're gonna talk about dealing with agingparents and even the death of a parent.
It's relevant, it's real, we're childrenof parents, and it's gonna happen.
And so, Steph and Dale,welcome to the program today.
(02:01):
I know it's not the, you know, thekind of program that we're just
jumping for joy to be a part of, butI'm so glad you, you came aboard.
Thank you.
Dale and Steph (02:10):
Thanks for the invite, Curtis.
We appreciate the opportunityto talk about a topic that's
really, really important.
And I feel like it givesyou an opportunity to honor
the person and their story.
And so we're really grateful forthat opportunity today as well.
I think, you know, as I thinkabout, um, Michael's story, I'm so
thankful for the way that you'rehonoring her story with this podcast.
(02:34):
And I love her authenticity.
And that's kind of our hope in thisconversation today, that we'd honor
her story by being authentic, about thestory that we've got to share today.
And so thanks for giving usthe opportunity to do that.
Curtis (02:47):
No, I appreciate it.
Stuff just kind of takeus into when mom got sick.
some of the struggles.
Cause you guys lived in Florida.
Dale and Steph (02:54):
well,, when the struggles first began, we actually
were in Oregon, my dad was havingmore ins and outs of hospital stays
when we were living in Oregon.
But mom's, dementia actuallystarted when we were in Oregon and
my dad would call and he'd be like,Hey, I need you to talk to mom.
Like something's going on.
It's not right.
(03:14):
She's like just being really,just verbally combative actually
like just kind of like she justis getting mad really easy.
So that really expedited into2019 when we moved to Florida.
I was getting calls almost daily toevery other day of like trying to talk
mom off the ledge or then she'd callme and said, your dad, like it just,
(03:37):
it was kind of a lot of back and forth.
My mom came in September to visit.
Like I flew her down here.
I'm like, I gotta, I gotta see withmy own eyes what, what's going on.
And I was seeing like she wasn'tremembering certain things.
She, you know, honestly, when I pickedher up from the airport, I had to go in.
And when I went in to pick her up, Igot all the way up to where I could
(03:58):
see her coming off of the plane.
And she actually tripped and sheliterally launched herself forward
into a wall, like she just was veryclumsy and not remembering things.
And so I was able to put my eyes onmy mom and see something's not Right.
She went back and it was still a lot ofevery other day calls calming her down.
(04:24):
Things that she wouldsee on TV were real life.
Like there is like, you know, astory, a news story about a fire.
And she's like, you know,what's going to happen.
There's going to be a fire.
We can't go to sleep.
Like just really paranoidabout everything.
And then the world started to shutdown and yeah, I mean that was the
wild part early 2020 and then inFebruary of 2020 she actually went
(04:49):
For another hospital stay ended up.
We had to take her to a psych hospitalto really see She wasn't responding.
She wasn't Taking her meds.
She was really just Reallyoverly paranoid about everything.
Yeah, I think the paranoia wasone of the hardest things to
watch, because that wasn't her.
Yeah, she'd always been real strong.
(05:11):
I mean, kind of silly andawful, but she wasn't paranoid.
She wasn't a paranoid person.
Um, she wasn't afraid of being alone.
She wasn't afraid of,like, doing things on her.
own.
But everything scared her, so anyway, byFebruary of 2020, she was out of the psych
hospital, but she was in a nursing home.
She hadn't completely forgot who everybodywas, but her mental state of mind,
(05:36):
she was beginning to forget things.
And those would causefights and issues at home.
And we, I was actually doing safetychecks on both my parents at different
times because I'm still so far removed.
My sisters couldn't get in or, youknow, one would be mad at another so
that they couldn't get in the house.
So I'm literally doing calls andsafety calls on my, on my family and
(06:00):
both their health were starting to
Curtis (06:03):
you have to, Did you have to, come spend some time in Michigan at all?
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (06:07):
I did, they just didn't have a handle on things.
My mom had been paying bills, butbecause of where her mind was going,
she wasn't, so dad didn't know.
so in 19, I like, literally wentthere, started doing all their
bills, figuring things out, andthen I just brought everything.
We just made sure my name wason everything, I brought it home
Curtis (06:24):
let me just talk about that for a second because that's a that's a really
big deal and and as a You know as a sonYou know, I think it's important that all
of us have that conversation with a parentat some point Would you agree with that?
Like who's in charge or who's goingto be in charge if X Y Z happens?
(06:45):
I think that's I thinkthat's kind of a big deal
Dale and Steph (06:48):
getting that established before they don't have their mindset
to have clear conversations becausethen it seems as though you're leading
it and trying to push them that way.
And if you have siblings,that's not always something
your siblings look fond upon.
Um, so.
So, you know, having thoseconversations early and even having
(07:10):
some of the documentation, um, Imean, they had already put me on
bank accounts and stuff like that.
So, that wasn't hard, but justhaving those, that communication with
vendors or bill utilities or whatever,
Curtis (07:23):
at that point though, you were paying the bills.
You were in charge of finances for both.
Dale and Steph (07:29):
For both.
Yeah.
For the whole household.
That's hard because, you know, youget so You're, you're parenting your
parents and you, you are now in what'scalled that sandwich generation.
You're, you're the sandwich person And
and it starts off like, oh, I'm just beinghelpful, but it gets increasingly hard.
Curtis (07:51):
just to help people understand, mom and dad were
not that old at this point.
How how old were they?
Dale and Steph (07:56):
63
Curtis (07:58):
Yeah, and that's, that's the part I wanted to share
because we just don't know when.
Dale and Steph (08:03):
Yeah.
Curtis (08:04):
And, and we can't just keep putting it off and putting it off.
These are conversationsthat we, we have to have.
I hate them.
Dale and Steph (08:09):
I think that's
Curtis (08:11):
I hate having these conversations.
Dale and Steph (08:13):
I think you have to have the conversation early, you know, and
don't assume that it's something thatyou can delay until someone's 70 or 80.
You know, I'd, if I've got parentsthat are in their sixties, we need
to be having some conversation.
Hey, what are your plans in the future?
If, if your health begins to fail,what are we going to do here?
And can we try and make Sure.
we're getting all on the same page?
(08:34):
And if there are siblings, Bringthem in because that was a hard, that
was a hard part for us as my, my dadand mom didn't bring my siblings in.
And so from, from the start, Iam, I'm fighting battles that
I shouldn't have to be fighting
Curtis (08:51):
It's hard enough what you have to do.
You don't need to be fighting at the same
Dale and Steph (08:54):
Like, I mean, me and my one sister, we weren't, I
mean, neither one of my sisterswere we even communicating.
And not until almost a year anda half in did one of them, I just
said, we've got to figure this out.
Like, I think you have a misunderstandingof what I'm being asked of.
I don't think dad was completelyclear with you versus me.
And we sat in our front yard forthree hours and hashed it out.
(09:15):
And, you know, we talk now andshe understands that, like, I
was being given some information.
She was being, cause my daddidn't like confrontation.
My mom did, but my dad did not.
It's truth to that.
So, like, but we hashed out, I'mlike, we have to be together if
we're going to be there and honorour parents and that is primary.
(09:36):
And so, you know, that has helpedthat relationship, but getting
everybody on the same page, howuncomfortable it may be is huge.
Curtis (09:49):
So, you know, mom turns, mom turns 80 this year.
I don't know if you knewthat next month she turns 80.
That's, I
Dale and Steph (09:55):
goodness.
she's
Curtis (09:56):
probably gonna be mad.
She's gonna be mad that I saidit out loud, but it's, it's true.
What made me think of is that, youknow, mom's had two bouts of cancer
and, you know, that first bout,you know, it was rough and, um,
having to start those conversations.
So, The the problem for most of us thatis we never have those conversation
conversations until there's an actualevent And it's like this event Causes
(10:21):
us to have these conversations, but whatabout people who don't get a chance?
You know the event doesn't allow them tohave the chance to have the conversation
And so if we could put it up for avote how many says that we need to
have these conversations ahead of time?
Dale and Steph (10:35):
absolutely.
Curtis (10:36):
So I don't know that's what that's what crossed my mind because mom and
I have had a lot of conversations likethat And we we have a plan Um, it stinks.
I hate I hate talking that way um whatyou what you may or may not know is um
The weekend of the funeral of michael'sfuneral mom got covid really bad And
(10:57):
she was so hurt that she couldn't beat the funeral and she called me the
day before and said, son, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sick.
I cannot be there to support you.
And, um, I remember saying, mom, don'tyou die this weekend on Michael's funeral?
Like, like, are you serious right now?
I can't, I can't do this.
(11:19):
You know what I mean?
Um, but, but those are, those arereal conversations we really had.
And so.
I don't know.
That was my thought is like, if somebodyis listening to this and they haven't
had an event yet that forces them todo this, man, start talking about it.
Start having the conversations.
It you'll be glad you did.
Well, keep going.
(11:42):
Cause I know the story getsharder and harder and harder.
Oh,
Dale and Steph (11:46):
in 2020, she went into the nursing home.
And, Between, 2020 and her passing in2022, there was a lot of trips back and
forth, um, there was a lot of phone calls,um, she's still dealing with paranoia
and having to work with the nursing homealmost every day to just get her to eat.
(12:08):
Her, her paranoia is intense.
She doesn't know what's goingon and the world shut down.
We can't go see her so everything ison video and so that in itself I think
actually kind of expedited things becausethere is so much That we couldn't do.
My dad, that's local, couldn't do, um,my siblings, my nieces and nephews,
(12:33):
they could not go see her becauseof everything being on lockdown.
So, you know, with the calls andshe just could not understand that.
Um, and so she just, she startedlike regressing and just kind
of shutting herself down, likerefusing to take more meds.
And so, um, You know, wetried to FaceTime a lot.
(12:53):
Um, I relied a lot on her, hercaregivers there to give me reports.
And, you know, they'dcall me to get her to eat.
Um, because she was justdwindling down to nothing.
She lost a lot, a lot of weight.
Um, and, and that's hard.
Like you see, you know, you, youwant to see and remember your
(13:15):
parent as they're aging and gettingelderly and also potentially.
You want to rememberthem as you knew them.
And in my young years,you know, she's strong.
She's engaged with probably everything.
And she likes to make people smile.
And just to see her laying in abed, it's hard, you know, watching
(13:38):
her not be that strong Marinethat I was always so proud of.
Um, and I love to tellpeople, my mom was a Marine.
Um, And to, so to seeher not be that person.
Um, but know that that's stillthat, that she is that person.
It's just different.
So hard.
(13:58):
Um, so she was in the nursing home.
There was, um, a lot of back andforth because my dad's health
also continued to deteriorate.
Um, and so he was inand out of the hospital.
And so I would go home.
to Michigan, um, sometimes for aweekend and sometimes for two weeks.
(14:21):
And then it kept increasing to threeweeks and sometimes a month at a time,
you know, and in our own home, youthink, okay, I've got to go do this.
So I'm going to hit the pausebutton here and everything's going
to pause because I've been dealingwith the hard in another state.
(14:41):
It doesn't pause.
Everything doesn't pause.
Everything keeps going.
Everything, everything else still hasmovement and still has emotion and
still has deadlines and, and needs.
Um, but I couldn't be here.
And so that happened multipletimes with dad's health.
(15:02):
Um,
Curtis (15:03):
Dale, tell me about that because your wife, you got three daughters, your
wife's gone sometimes weeks at a time.
What, what's it look like?
Dale and Steph (15:14):
Yeah, I was reflecting on this with Steph, um,
before we jumped on with you andI'm a, I'm a real reflective person.
So I journal and I think about myexperiences and I'm, I'm always trying
to evaluate my experience and makemyself better, make our family better.
And so if you go to my journal up untilyour mom went into care, um, there's
(15:36):
almost daily Post in my journal rightof reflection on what's happening
and getting ready to talk with you.
I looked at I said So what wasI journaling during this window?
And here's what I discovered Curtisbetween Her father's decline.
So her mom's been in care foralmost a year at this point.
So this would have been early2021 and now her dad's failing.
(16:00):
Uh, there's a cancer diagnosis.
He's going on dialysis.
All this is like running concurrently.
It's just heavy stuff.
And, uh, in January of 2021, Istopped journaling when she flew
to Michigan to be with her dad.
And I didn't journal again until ayear and a half later when they both
passed within five weeks of each other.
Curtis (16:21):
Really?
Dale and Steph (16:22):
I didn't journal once during that season in And that's,
that's a window into what was goingon in our household during that time.
There was, there was just this sense we'retrying to keep our heads above water.
We're trying to do right byher parents and everything we
can to like so much energy.
(16:43):
You only have so much energy, right?
And now you're taking, I'd say, 35percent of our energy, maybe 40 percent
of our energy, maybe more was going tosupporting her parents during that time.
And then the rest of it, Imean, everything that was non
essential got shut down, right?
Uh, recreation, self care, you know,all those things that you think
(17:06):
of as non essential that are veryessential, they get shut out and
you're just going day to day to day.
Um, Yeah.
I wish, I wish I journaledduring that time.
So it was a lot of just tryingto make sure our girls were
where they needed to be.
Right.
We had two girls in highschool during that time.
Uh, one was a senior in highschool and another one was,
(17:28):
uh, a sophomore at that time.
And they're struggling.
Um, they're, they'rereally spinning and then.
Mom's gone.
Yeah.
mom's gone.
And it's me and them.
And then the last year of herparents health, it was mom's gone.
And Brenna, our middle was awayat all of that at school, right?
And the youngest one, you know,she she doesn't have her mom here.
(17:51):
And her sister who's beenher best friend isn't here.
And she's with her dad.
And I'm trying to be Mom, dad, andsibling, right, and, and fill all
these gaps in her life, um, that wasprobably the hardest, I think the hardest
season that we've had in, in life andministry was that season from when her,
(18:11):
both of her parents really started todecline until they passed, and they
passed within five weeks of each other.
It was, yeah, almost threeand a half, but Yeah.
but yeah, but Yeah, so lots oftaking sweet stuff to the airport and
managing the household and all that.
Curtis (18:24):
I use the word capacity like there's just no more capacity.
You are you are tapped out Allright, Steph hard question It seems
like as I talk to other friendswho have experienced this kind of
thing It's almost like somebodygets stuck drawing the short stick
Dale and Steph (18:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it kind of feels that way.
Yeah.
it can, but in the same sense,there's so much, this is gonna sound
really weird, but there's actuallyso much that I cherish, and, and,
you know, found joy in being inthis space with my parents because I
was able to honor them in that way.
I knew their wishes and even though Igot the short stick and had to do the
(19:08):
hard, I wouldn't want to be anywhere elseand I wouldn't want to question whether
or not somebody else was making Sure.
their wishes were there,were being fulfilled.
And so, yes and no.
Like, you The hard days and the timeswhere you're trying to have some normalcy
(19:29):
and you know Go out with your husbandand play disc golf and your phone
rings and you're like, I got a call anambulance I'm so sorry like like I'm
sorry our games done and you know, youcontinue on I gotta go go to the car and
figure This out, you know or whatever.
I don't think I continued on.
No But like Like, those are, those aremoments that, um, I was also reflecting
(19:53):
on some of what I was journalingand, you know, regardless that the
moments were hard, they're the onlymoments that we get in that season.
And so even if they're hard, andeven if they, honestly, they suck,
Curtis (20:08):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (20:08):
that's really what they are, they just suck,
you don't want to be there,
Curtis (20:12):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (20:13):
but that's the moment we get, and I don't want to miss those
moments, regardless how hard they are.
So, I would take the shortstick again if I had to.
Um, I was able to walk those roadswith both of my parents all the
way to the end, and, and be Right.
by their side, and that in itself is hard.
Um, you know, Mom, Mom was on,um, hospice care for over a year.
(20:39):
Um, and in that, in that time, Dadended up in the hospital, and then,
um, Not very many people, but you know,like they have an underground home.
So I had to work very hard with,with the physician saying there
is no way he can go back home.
He cannot care for himself.
(21:00):
And unless I were to move him withme or me move there with him, like
I have siblings, but he needs roundthe clock care that he cannot get.
And so he cannot go back home.
It's unsafe.
Um, and we worked hard and he endedup also in a nursing home and they're
(21:20):
at now at two different nursinghomes So that you're like working
with different care teams and tryingto keep that straight and then he
ended up He did have a cancer scare.
It wasn't cancer, but they he didhave a cancer scare But he ended
up also having to start dialysis.
So Also then working with a dialysisteam and that cared during a time where
(21:46):
transportation was not great during COVIDto get a six six man into whatever car
they're using as their medical transport.
And so like I had to leave heavily.
Yeah.
I had to, you know, rely heavily onone of my aunts that drove in the area
(22:06):
and see if I could get her to helpdrive or, you know, then my sibling,
cause all of a sudden drivers justweren't showing up to pick him back
up from hospice care or from dialysisto take him back to the nursing home.
And so his health justkept declining as Well.
Um, and ultimately dialysis, um,Wasn't working and we had to make
(22:26):
that tough decision with him whetherto continue or not to continue
and those are hard conversationsbecause And you end up being the person
who's having those hard conversations.
It's like I have to bring this up and asAs your kid, you, you, you want your, your
parents to have the hard conversation.
(22:47):
You don't want them, but youexpect your parents to be having
the hard conversations with you.
Not you having to bring this up,being like, dad, I know you don't
want to do this, but do you realizeif you don't, what this means?
Um, and even though if you continuethe outcome, is the same, um, that's
(23:10):
hard, you know, and I was able todo that, but it was not easy, and it
was not because, like, I had all theknowledge and the strength to do it.
It was only because I had, you know,my spouse, people that love me, um,
God that I trust in, and he's beenfaithful, um, to help me walk those
(23:32):
roads, and my, and my, my dad's sisters.
So those are, those are the ways that.
I was able to have those conversations,but they're still so hard.
It's so
hard.
Curtis (23:44):
so you're married.
You're in two different states a lot.
There's still kids growing up,going to college, going through high
school, like another tough question,but you know, what's this do to
a, what's this do to a marriage?
Where does your strength come from?
How do you make it work?
Dale and Steph (24:07):
It's hard.
I mean, it's, it was alot of conversations.
I told Dale it was I mean likesomething's got to change.
Um, I feel like we're both, but Ifeel like we're going around like
the sticks with the plates on thetop and you're like spinning them
and you go to the next one and you'respinning them and you're spinning them.
Like, I feel like there's 12 and oneof them's gonna crash and I don't know
(24:31):
which one it's gonna be, but it can'tbe us and it can't be our family.
But some things have to go by thewayside at this point where we're at.
Um.
Because it's just too much AndI you know, I really limited
travel during that season.
So Something that had started to buildup before that was I was speaking in
(24:54):
churches and doing some travel and duringthe season really didn't Do travel I've
only opened that up in the last coupleof years and that had to go, you know
It couldn't continue to happen and Hadto get some help in the office, Right.
That's when Mark joined our teamand having Mark on the team in
that window was a grace, right?
(25:15):
You, uh, you gotta, you know,you gotta have a village, right?
You gotta have a team around you thatare helping to be God's grace to you
if you're gonna keep things going.
So you had, one of the things I loveis you had great care providers.
You had one gal in particularwho just was, she was an angel.
Yeah.
She was an absolute angel.
And, I mean, Went above and beyondwhat her job description was to
(25:40):
support your mom during that season.
Um, I don't know how we would have,would have got through it without her.
So, you know, our relationship'simportant, but our relationship
doesn't stay strong without otherpeople helping bring strength to us.
Right?
So we had strength that came from careproviders who were a grace of God.
Um, we had strength from congregants thatwe have worshiped with for decades, right?
(26:03):
That are not in Florida with us,but they're, they're sending us
text messages and praying with us.
Um, when we see them and visitwith them, they're praying for us.
They're calling us and reaching out.
Um, I had a group of about four guysthat, I mean, it was, it was probably
every week they were texting me.
Um, let me know they're praying for me andcommunicating with me, um, helping to keep
(26:24):
my head on right as to how to support you.
One of them, uh, John had a spousewho was dealing with a mom who
had dementia at the same time.
And so, you know, John's friendship wasa grace to me that helped me to be a
better husband to my wife because I hadanother guy that was in the same space
and because we were kind of in that samespace and he was like a step ahead of me.
(26:46):
I was learning things that Iwouldn't have known otherwise.
And I just can't emphasize enoughthe importance of having that
broader community to strengthen you.
I can't imagine trying to dothis with just The two of us.
No.
Um, We had another, uh, friend thatwas, is also a colleague and, and
she was close with me and, She dideventually be, was local and, and she
(27:13):
would check, would check on us and shekind of knew the really, the really
ugly, um, that not everybody got tosee that we were trying to manage.
She got to see
Curtis (27:27):
the
real deal.
Dale and Steph (27:28):
She got to see the other areas and hair that were running
out like she got to see the ugly
Curtis (27:34):
Yeah.
Dale and Steph (27:35):
If she didn't not just the ugly like with Karen for your parents
But the ugly of how this impacts a localfamily a family right like how it impacts
our household how it impacts our girls Andand I think you've got to have at least
one person or a couple people that I meanThey know what's really going on right?
There's there's nothing hidden.
There's not secrets.
We're transparent You And, and we're safe.
(27:57):
Yeah.
Like, all of those things matter.
And that's how we've always triedto do ministry, but then when it
gets to be, like, in Every day.
you're like, Yeah.
I can ask people to pray for mewhen things get tough, but I'm
like, these, these are daily things.
Like, I feel like I'm coming toyou and like, sometimes you feel
like such a burden because you'resharing so heavily, but you're like,
(28:18):
I have to have somebody that I knowis praying and sincerely knows.
the impact of everything that we're goingthrough not just a hey again this month.
Can you pray for us?
There's a lot of people that say, you knowYou need to be in counseling during space
like this or support groups, and I thinkthose are good things, I want to be clear.
(28:39):
I believe that but I also believe thatthere is there's nothing that takes
the place of spiritual friendship
Curtis (28:45):
Yeah.
One of the things, you know, one ofthe things that we keep challenging
people through this is that, man,I was blessed with such an amazing
support group of people, you know, mychurch, my buds, my neighbors, like
just poured in, poured in, poured in.
And I just, I keep challengingpeople, you know, we all know somebody
(29:05):
going through stuff like this.
We just do.
We all know somebody going throughstuff like this and and and people are
always saying things like I don't knowI don't know what to do do something
Dale and Steph (29:16):
do something yeah,
Curtis (29:17):
Like do something just show up You keep you know, I told Chris was asking me.
I'm one of the podcast.
He said Tell me what a friend should do.
And I said, never stop asking justbecause I'm in the thick of grief
and I don't want to go to breakfastwith you today, or I don't, I don't
want you to come by the house.
(29:37):
I don't need food today.
That doesn't mean it's a one and done.
Like, don't stop.
I'm not turning you away permanently.
I'm turning you away today.
Just today, I just need space today,but you better show up tomorrow and
you better show up the next day andyou better show up the third day and
you better show up the fourth day andyou better show up a year from now.
If you want to know how to be a friendto somebody going through stuff,
(30:00):
you just keep showing up because youcan't get offended if they didn't
need you that day or didn't, or justdidn't have the capacity to have
a conversation or two or whatever.
And so, I don't know, justyou sharing that just in.
Helps me want to remind peopleto just keep asking, keep showing
(30:20):
up, keep, keep offering a hand.
Um, that's all that, that'sall that got me through.
And that's what you're saying too,is that your people showed up.
Dale and Steph (30:29):
Yeah.
I'd say, like, definitely the peopleshowed up and it's not, like you said,
it's not that the counseling was bad,like, but I didn't have, like you
said, I didn't have the capacity.
Yes.
Do anything more or spin one more plate.
That's right.
Or to check a box.
Like, I did go to counseling, but itwasn't until after some of those other
plates stopped spinning, not necessarilybecause they crashed, but because that
(30:52):
season of that plate spinning was done.
And so I just, Not to say don't docounseling, but definitely don't push
away your village or your people.
Invite them into the ugly spaceand the hard space that you're in.
Yeah.
And I think one of the reasons we hadpeople show up for us is, I can't say
this about me, but I can say this aboutyou because you're incredible at this
(31:14):
is, uh, Steph is someone who is a friend.
And she's a friend at all times, right?
And so she was investing in otherpeople before she was at a place where
she needed people to invest in her.
And I think when you live your lifethat way, where you're pouring into
others, you position yourself for asense of reciprocity that comes when
(31:34):
you find yourself at that point of need.
And so we're all going to findourselves facing hard things.
If, if we're gonna have the gracewe need from others during that
time, then we have to be a graceto others before that time for us.
And that's, I, you were that.
You just did that so well.
Curtis (35:29):
Growth.
I use that word loosely, but I'mtrying to grow out of this experience.
Like.
Like what's God doing, you know?
Michael gave us that mantrathat really happened.
She literally told us don't shy awayfrom this go cry your guts out do
(35:51):
whatever you have to do, but don'tshy away from this She said dive into
it cry hurt do as much as you can butdon't shy away from the hard things and
she challenged the kids and I both andI've done that You I feel like I've,
I've tried to go in and I'm saying,Lord, what, what do you want to do?
(36:11):
What are you trying to teach mein the hardest of hard places?
And so my question is, is growth.
You know, you guys have been in ministry.
Tell me about ministry beforetragedy and ministry after.
Dale and Steph (36:28):
I think, uh, and I think most, I think most people understand
this, but, um, pain, difficulty,suffering, it transforms you, right?
and it either makes you hardenedin your heart, Or it makes you, um,
receptive to see other people andhave great empathy for them, right?
And I think the biggest thing that itdid, um, for me personally in ministry
(36:52):
was it increased my capacity for empathy.
Right?
I think until you've personally suffered,it's very difficult to display empathy or
really feel empathy for another person.
It is, it's really only after.
you've been through it yourself.
That you find yourself ableto empathize effectively.
I think that's especially truefor, for people that are like
(37:13):
leadership kind of mindset, right?
Um, you know, I'm not a,like, I'm an Enneagram, right?
I'm an Enneagram 8, which is hardcharger, driver, like, let's take
the hill, let's go, you know?
Like, who cares who gets left behind?
Let's go, we got a mountainto climb, you know?
They're back there because they're slow.
I mean, that's the way my head works.
They stub their toe and then they stop.
(37:34):
But we're gonna keep going.
But they need to learn how to walk betterif they're stubbing their toe, you know?
That's, that's how my head works.
And, and this experience in ministryhas given me a great deal of empathy
for people who are suffering andfighting a battle in the midst
of trying to do ministry as well.
So I'm way more empatheticwith our pastors.
I'm way more empathetic with, uh,board members that I'm working with
(37:57):
who are fighting significant battlesthat got all the plates spinning.
And there's more than, than growing achurch to, uh, To what they are called
to do in that place and and I'm it's it'sreally helped me right to move to a more
Pastoral care approach to ministry and not
Curtis (38:16):
No, that's good.
That's good.
Dale and Steph (38:18):
I Don't know.
What would you say in ministry howit's how it's transformed ministry for
Curtis (38:21):
Or in life, I mean,
Dale and Steph (38:24):
Well, I think there, I mean, we've always, like I said
earlier, we've always done ministry.
We've tried to be transparent about howwe go about doing and being in ministry.
It's helped me to be more open to not justbe behind the scenes saying, Hey, we're in
ministry together and I'm beside you andyou're the speaker and you're the voice.
(38:48):
I've, I wanted to, in what I wrote,I wrote, I want to, No, matter what,
I want to point people back to Jesusand how I Talk to them, um, interact
with them, um, do things for them.
But it wasn't until just recently, likeI can have one on one conversations, but
(39:11):
I don't want to be the upfront person.
I don't want to necessarily be talkingabout this in a group full of DS spouses
that I just did, um, actually in Septemberthat I never, ever thought I would do.
Um, Or being on stage with him talkingabout experiences or even doing a
podcast and sharing experiences It'sjust I want to be transparent, but
(39:35):
I've wanted to always be the privatetransparent Like you lead I support
but I'm I'm slowly finding that.
I have a little bit of a voice I'mnot afraid to share Maybe still afraid
to share but I'm willing to share
and
Curtis (39:51):
that's good because yeah, Dale, you know, I've never had a issue with
being out front or beingbold or being right,
Dale and Steph (40:03):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Curtis (40:04):
but, but this has just amped it up to another level.
Of, and I'm not, I'm nottalking, I'm not talking about
work or coaching or teaching.
I'm talking about my boldness for Christ.
My boldness to share.
I tell people, I mean,just random strangers.
(40:25):
Yeah, I'm a widower,lost my wife to cancer.
God's helping me.
I mean, I just, I just go there.
I make more people cry in like thegrocery store or the restaurant.
I was at a concert the other night andthe lady beside me was like, You know,
do you have somebody in the concert?
And I was like, yeah, it's actuallysoon to be my stepdaughters.
(40:46):
You know, my soon to be wifeis a widow and I'm a widower.
And I mean, I had her in tears in seconds.
I just, I just go there, but it's,but it's not for the purpose of
going there to make it hard for them.
It's the, it's thisboldness of, I can do this.
I can be so bold for Christ and sharehis goodness and what he's doing.
(41:08):
Even in the midst of the darkest.
And so I asked that question, you know,on purpose, cause I want people to hear
that, that we can go through this stuff.
And if we will really let God doa serious work in the middle of
(41:28):
this, we can do anything, right?
Dale and Steph (41:33):
I think that's, That's, it.
That's what
it did for you.
You became much more bold.
Yeah, and I think, not just formyself, but for my kids, and like
you said, Michael asked us of youand your kids, and if they can't see
you doing this, Then where are theygonna find themselves able to do that?
(41:54):
So in a way, it's still kind ofa coaching aspect for you to show
them they're strong enough to dothis as well at that right time.
Like it's taken me a while to get tothis point of even being able to talk
about it with a little bit of tears.
it's just not my comfortable place.
Like
Curtis (42:13):
Crying's part of it.
We're, we're going to cry.
Dale and Steph (42:16):
always, I cry.
This is the thing, yeah,she's a crier for sure.
I'm a crier over a lot of
Curtis (42:21):
It's okay.
It's okay.
I just, I don't need, I'm noteven ashamed of it anymore.
I just, I just let them out.
Yep.
Dale and Steph (42:29):
That's good.
More people need to be open to that.
But I think it helps the kids knowand be able to live into, you know,
what their moms ask them to do.
And
Curtis (42:40):
Sure.
Dale and Steph (42:41):
to reflect on that, that you're able to show that as well to them.
They're, it's not easy, um, butyou're running into the heart
and I think that's important.
Curtis (42:51):
Hey Dale, I, um, I asked you about that chapter in Matthew the other day.
I said, Hey, let's,
Dale and Steph (42:58):
Oh Yeah
Curtis (42:59):
let's unpack that a little bit because I hate that chapter.
I get the premise of itwhere Jesus is saying.
Leave your parents, let the dead bury thedead, be a follower of me, be my disciple.
I understand the premise behind it, butit's such a hard statement to swallow.
(43:22):
Help me unpack it.
Dale and Steph (43:24):
you know, it's, it's interesting.
Um, so some of the background on that,that's, that's, I think, important to
note is there's, there was one commandthat is kind of the chief command in the
Old Testament for God's people, right?
It's to love the Lord, your God.
With all your heart, with allyour mind and your soul, right?
It's the Shema passage out of Deuteronomyand everyone was trained in this.
(43:46):
I mean, they, they put it ondoorposts of their homes, right?
They wore jewelry thathad it printed on it.
You, you were never to forget to honorthe Lord, your God above like all else.
Right.
But interestingly, um, Um, there had beenan amendment to that and culturally within
(44:06):
Judaism leading up to the time of Christ,there, there was a, another teaching that
was brought in and the teaching was this,is that the number one thing you have to
do is bury your parents when they die.
This is interesting.
N.
T.
Wright goes, does a deep dive onto this.
So you have a responsibility to yourfather, particularly your father,
(44:27):
particularly your Um, above all else.
And so if anything else were tocome up, that gets set aside in
order to go bury your father.
And, uh, N.
T.
Wright says that what Jesus isdealing with here is he's pushing
back against this culture that saysthat family takes precedent over God.
Um, and it's a messianic statementon his part that he is God.
(44:51):
And so when he, when he says, youknow, Don't go bury your father.
I'm above all else.
It's a statement that this isa fulfillment of the Shema.
For you to follow me means thatyou are now loving God with
all your heart, mind, and soul.
And he wasn't setting himself upagainst family or the importance of
honoring parents, but he was settinghimself up as the son of the living God.
(45:16):
That helps me a little bit with that.
Yeah, he wasn't trying to,to divide my allegiances, but
he was trying to make Sure,
that it was understood that Christ is,is in fact God and following him means
that I'm fully committed to Christ.
But that's, that's a passage that, uh,has troubled me a lot too, brother.
Curtis (45:33):
sure.
Well, when we go through thesehard places, you know, we're, um,
and again, this is a statementthat's, that's hard to swallow,
but we try not to idolize the dead.
We try not to idolize.
We try not, I try not to idolize Michael.
Somebody, somebody said to me recently,it's, it's interesting that when our
(45:54):
someone passes away, they become greaterthan life in our minds and, and, and.
Dale and Steph (46:02):
ha.
Curtis (46:03):
go through that.
And I've tried not to idolize Michael.
I want people to know her message.
I want people to know what she challengedus with in the same token, not idolize
her and put her more important than Godin my relationship with God, God's using.
Our tragedies, he's using her death.
He's using that to, I hope better others.
(46:24):
I hope better her children.
I know she's challenged me.
She challenged me whenI was married to her.
It's a craziest thing that she's stillchallenging me when she's gone, but
that's just, that's the impact she left.
And her friends wouldtell you the same thing.
She was just.
That kind of a person, she justchallenged you to be better
in so many different ways.
(46:44):
I don't know that passage is alwaysI've always struggled with that
passage Not with the idea behind it.
God is number one But it'sjust this really hard cringy
feeling of wait a minute.
That's my parents You know what?
I mean, so that makes sense.
Dale and Steph (47:00):
Oh, it makes complete sense.
And it feels like it's, you know,it feels like it violates the,
the commandments as well, right?
To honor your father and mother.
Like that's, come on, we get,we're supposed to do that.
so
how do you, how do you wrestle with that?
And shouldn't I lead my family wellfirst and then lead others, other people?
Well, um, it seems like it makes sense.
(47:21):
I want to go back to like, when Iwere talking about the moments, the
only moments that we have and justone of the things that I had written
was, um, that God is, you know,Yahweh, God of the, God of the moment.
Um, God, you are, you are theGod of this moment and the
moments that I've not faced yet.
(47:42):
But in those moments you will also be.
You are here and you always have been.
Thank you so much for your faithfulness.
Curtis (47:51):
Hmm.
Dale and Steph (47:52):
I pray continually to give thanks in all circumstances, for this
is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
And that's from Thessalonians.
And I just, I wanted to just remember thatin all moments, that I was experiencing
and that I was going to experience.
Because that was, that wasleading into their weeks.
(48:14):
prior to their death, like,but I knew it was coming.
I'm just like, I want to know that andother people to know that you're God
and you're getting us through this andyou, you are and you will always be
what we need.
And I think that that needs toalways be because like I said,
(48:36):
I was, I was this sandwich.
I was, I was We're in this sandwichgeneration, and this sandwich, I
just felt like I was in, uh, GeorgeForeman, and they're just pushing this
grill down and squeezing me to death.
And I just, in those moments, I need toknow that, like, I've got my people, but
most importantly, I had God, and, andhe was always there, and he will always
(49:01):
be there, and even the moments that wewere, didn't even know were happening
in our own home, That he was present.
That he was present.
Curtis (49:10):
Well, guys, I sure appreciate you sharing.
You know, I started this podcast today,just kind of telling people that, you
know, I'm past year two and I feel likemy brain is starting to function again.
But with, with my brain functioningmeans I have more questions.
I have more
Dale and Steph (49:30):
hmm.
Mm
Curtis (49:31):
things I want to know, things I want to learn.
Um, I want to hear people's stories.
I want to know.
I want to know how they did it well.
Does that make
Dale and Steph (49:41):
hmm.
Yeah.
Curtis (49:42):
like It's easy to spot people who are stuck.
It's easy to spot peoplewho aren't doing it.
Well who they're crashing and burningunder the the pressure Uh, of all of
this, but I, I keep wanting to findpeople who did it well and have found
hope at the end of this hard road andthat at the end of the day can still
(50:04):
look to God and look to his goodnessand his faithfulness, uh, interviewed
a pastor friend recently and, um, youknow, he lost his four year old daughter.
And yet he could say God is good.
God is faithful.
God has always been good.
God's not bad.
Dale and Steph (50:22):
Right.
Curtis (50:23):
He, he loves us and cares for us in the darkest
and deepest moment of our life.
He's still there.
He's still carrying us.
He's still faithful.
And, and, um, that's where I wantto hang my hat each and every day.
Um, You know, it's tempting.
It's tempting to, you know, disappear.
(50:44):
It's tempting to,
Dale and Steph (50:46):
Yeah.
Curtis (50:47):
you know, try something else to make the pain go away.
But at the end of the day, I wantto keep looking to God and looking
to others who are doing it well.
And, and, uh, I watched you guysfrom afar and watched you go through
this and knew that you were faithfulto him and he was faithful to you
and he was pulling you through this.
So I'm glad that we got to reconnect.
(51:09):
And, um,
Dale and Steph (51:11):
Yeah, us too.
This has been, this has been reallygood, um, for us to be able to reflect
even on this more fully together.
I'm really grateful that you extendthe invite to say, Hey, would
you think about this with me?
Would you help us to tell a storyof, of how God's been faithful?
Cause he's been so good.
I, I, I can't get away from James four,six just says, but he gives more grace.
(51:34):
And it's this.
promise that in every circumstancein every season there's a sufficiency
of his grace that's adequate forthe need It gives more grace.
It's there.
We just have to receive it And and inthese spaces god is a god who gives
more grace to us and it's available.
Curtis (51:50):
Yeah, that's so good Thanks guys.
Thanks for your
time.
I appreciate
you.
Love you.
guys.
Dale and Steph (51:57):
Yeah, same
brother.
I love you, man
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