November 27, 2024 • 24 mins
Does God view all sins the same? In what ways does the church culture emphasize certain sins over others, and what impact does this have on the faith-based community? Our co-hosts Keith and Katelyn discuss the hierarchy of sin.
Video referenced at 14:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx0AjK14A3E
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Keith (00:16):
What's up everybody and welcome back to the same dish podcast.
We have conversations about beingyoung, Christian and imperfect.
I'm Keith.
And I'm Caitlin.
Uh, and Caitlin, I want tointroduce you to something that we
do at the beginning of episodes.
It is called the issue of the week.
Um, issue of the week is justsomething that has been bothering you,
something you've been struggling with.
(00:37):
Uh, that you just want to shareand, and hopefully, you know, we can
maybe quickly help you to navigate.
Uh, so you want me to go first?
You want to go first?
Katelyn (00:45):
You go first.
Keith (00:46):
All right.
So my ish of the week is just a lack ofclarity on like what God wants me to do.
Like, I feel like careerwise, I'm kind of at a fork.
Like I have a startup, asoftware platform is doing well,
but it could be doing better.
And so I'm considering.
Potentially going back towork, and maybe juggling.
(01:09):
Uh, but I know that would take a lot ofthe momentum and a lot of the attention
away from, let's just start up, so.
Been praying a lot about it, um, and,and, and really just trying to get out
the way and let God show me what, whatI'm supposed to be doing right now.
Katelyn (01:23):
Sound like a whole episode by yourself.
Keith (01:25):
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Katelyn (01:26):
How to lean on him, when it don't look good.
Ha ha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, I hope everything works out for us.
So yeah, but, um,
Keith (01:38):
What's your ish?
Katelyn (01:38):
My ish, uh, I had like this just one day where everything was going wrong.
I hit somebody's car.
I fell, I stabbed myselfwith a knife on accident.
And to top it all off, right before Iwas going to bed, I stepped on a nail.
Yeah.
Love my life.
So, um, those are my ish in one.
It was the entire day.
Keith (01:57):
Okay, let's rewind.
You hit somebody.
Is that something youwant to admit on air?
Katelyn (02:03):
I tapped her window.
Or side mirror, okay?
Like, she was being dramatic.
And then when I went to go say, hey,do you want to exchange insurance?
It was, oh no, we ain'tgot to do all that.
Then why are you sitting here in my face?
Cussing me out.
Saying all kinds of crazy things.
Keith (02:16):
She cursed you out?
Katelyn (02:17):
I started crying.
Keith (02:18):
You cried?
You gotta tighten up.
You can't be out here weak.
Katelyn (02:21):
But by the time, by the time that had happened, I had already fallen,
I had already had the knife stabbing,and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Keith (02:26):
Alright, so, we, we worked through the, the accident.
The knife, you stabbed yourself, or?
Katelyn (02:33):
Yeah, so, my knife was in my backpack, because I
was going to bring a, a knife.
Uh, what do you call those things?
A mango to school for a snack?
Quick, quick, quick snack.
And, uh, the knife went through mybackpack and as I was like going to
put my backpack on, it just said,and I was like, oh, this is new.
You know, I don't have a scar.
Keith (02:51):
Alright, so maybe, maybe let's not.
Katelyn (02:52):
Yeah, you live and you learn.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm living and I'm learning.
Keith (02:57):
Okay, so that's two.
I feel like there were at least two more.
Katelyn (03:00):
Yeah, I fell because my dog wouldn't listen,
so I slipped on something.
Keith (03:03):
So you're blaming the dog?
Katelyn (03:04):
Absolutely, because he didn't listen.
If he'd listened, Iwouldn't have ran after him.
And I ran after him, and Idid the James Brown split.
And, you know, it's terrible.
Keith (03:10):
So no accountability.
You punking out in the street.
Katelyn (03:13):
Wow.
Keith (03:14):
You stabbing yourself.
You're packing irresponsibly.
Katelyn (03:16):
Nice.
Keith (03:17):
I'm hearing a lot.
And then the last thing was what?
Katelyn (03:20):
The nail.
The nail in the coffin, and in my foot.
Keith (03:24):
So you stepped on a nail.
So you need to get a tetanus shot.
Katelyn (03:26):
Yeah.
Already done.
Keith (03:27):
Good.
Uh, I don't know if we shared this,but this will eventually be Dr.
Katelyn.
Um, she's way smarter than me and she's inlike medical school and I assume she knew
what to do about the cut and the foot, but
Katelyn (03:41):
I actually called my mom.
I did not know what to do.
Keith (03:44):
You know, American healthcare System,
That's it.
That's it.
That's where we are.
Yeah.
Um, well that's a lot.
Um.
Katelyn (03:51):
It is a lot.
Keith (03:51):
I don't think we have a lot of time to unpack all of that.
Katelyn (03:53):
Right.
Keith (03:53):
But I hope that your foot and your leg.
And you're just kind of like bravery inthese streets, like all those things.
Hope you're better.
I'm sorry you went through all that.
Katelyn (04:06):
Nah it's cool.
Keith (04:07):
I'm here if you need me.
Katelyn (04:08):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Keith (04:09):
No, I'm busy.
Katelyn (04:10):
Yeah.
That's, oh, so you feel,you know, that's hilarious.
Anyways.
Keith (04:14):
All right.
What are we talking about today?
Katelyn (04:15):
Yeah.
So y'all remember last time we talkedabout introduction, we talked about
salvation and how that is basically on thebasis of God showing us unconditional love
and then trailing that unconditional love,
now we're going to expose how weas humans, we are very conditional
and what do we do to rationalizethe different decisions and things
that we make, we, yeah, that wemake, we make a hierarchy of sin.
Keith (04:38):
Hierarchy.
Katelyn (04:38):
What is worse than the other?
If I kill somebody, that's notas bad as stealing a Snickers
bar from the store, right?
Well, actually flip that, theSnickers bar is not a joke.
Keith (04:47):
Yeah, I was going to say, I think.
Katelyn (04:49):
Right.
Keith (04:50):
I think it's the other way around.
Katelyn (04:50):
Y'all knew what I meant though.
But you shouldn't have known whatI meant because God doesn't see
it that way because everythingis the same in his eyes.
Keith (04:58):
So I've heard that.
Um, don't know that I believe that.
Uh, it's, it's one of those, uh,Christianisms that I just have a
really hard time coming to grips with.
Um, you know, to your point, there arequote, unquote, big sins, like, you know,
taking a life or, or other things thatwe don't necessarily need to get into.
(05:22):
And then there are seeminglysmall sins that And I guess
to, to try to tell me that
looking at someone and feeling envy isjust as bad as taking a life, assaulting
somebody, you know, doing things thatcause, like, massive amounts of harm are
(05:45):
the same in God's eyes, is something thatI've never been able to really accept.
Am I the only one?
Katelyn (05:53):
No, that, I mean, like, I guess if you're looking at it from, like, a
human perspective, it totally makes sense.
Like, it's like, okay, like, Iwill kill somebody's grandma.
That's terrible, right?
Not the grandma, my bad grandma,but you know, like something
harsh like that versus what we'veseen is like hard, not as harsh.
Like in our, because we have this likeconditions that are set up with it.
(06:14):
So I feel like that kind of brings itto like two different points that I
think of is like one, um, they alwaystalk about how like you have the, the
white lamb and then like the bloodstain, or like you have like a And
then you put like one speck of dirt.
Now the water's dirty.
I feel like that's kind of how God,when you sin, like if I could try to
put myself in his shoes, even though Icannot, but if I like try to think about
(06:34):
it from his point of view, it's likeif I have a white piece of paper and
then I even like, let's say I droppedmy Sharpie on that piece of paper on
accident and a dot gets on the paperand that paper is no longer fully white.
So it's kind of like anall or nothing type deal.
Like.
You know, like, or a light switch.
That's a perfect example.
There's no in between for a light switch.
Either the light is onor the light is off.
And that's the absolute that Godworks in when it comes to sin.
(06:56):
And so that's why, like,they all are the same.
However, I personally believe, thisis not scripture based, this is my
opinion, but I personally believe that,um, another way that God sees it is
like, you have different consequencesthat are harsher for different sins.
It's like, yeah, he may see the sinsthe same, but the, the punishment or
(07:18):
the consequences or the reaping of youractions is where like the hierarchy
comes from, if that makes sense.
Keith (07:24):
Right.
So you're saying you, you know, theaction or the act is either a sin
or it's not, but if it's on that sinside, there are likely to be some
version of like tiers or categories.
Um, and I hope so.
Right.
I think.
I think about, um, I don't evenremember where I heard this, but someone
(07:46):
suggested that like, if you look ata woman and you feel lust, that's
no better than committing adultery.
And like, try to tell my wife thatand just see, see how that goes.
Like, I, I just, I don'tthink she would like that.
I just don't.
And I, I don't know, I don't know ifI should even be trying to get to that
(08:07):
place, but like, I understand thereare certain things that I probably
shouldn't do or areas where I'm weak.
And I need to grow and mature, butin terms of like them being on the
same playing field, there are certainthings that I can, you know, with 99.
9 percent confidence tell you I wouldnever do under any circumstance.
(08:29):
And I don't even understand howpeople could do those things.
And there are other things where I feellike, okay, I don't even know if I had
control over that feeling of, of envy.
And so if I don't have control overit, or if, you know, it wasn't a
conscious choice, how can it be thesame as something that's super severe
(08:51):
and you can't undo, you know, wetalked about like, like taking a life,
like, there's no making that right.
So I, I I don't know.
I don't know.
I struggle with that.
Um, this as a topic, I've kind of, I don'teven really debate it anymore because
I'm like, no, they can't all be the same.
(09:12):
That just doesn't make sense.
Some of this stuff is out of our control.
Um, but, but I do know that thereare Christians and there are
people who will frame it that way.
And that makes me uncomfortable.
Katelyn (09:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like something that yousaid that stuck out to me is when
you were going back to the, like,doing the sin versus thinking it.
Um, I was talking to one of my friendsone time, we were like, basically kind
of talking about the similar thingabout being disciplined in your actions,
but he took it a step further and waslike, you know, like, that's cool to
(09:44):
not do X, Y, and Z, but if, if you'rethinking like, you need to change your
mind, like purify your mind, and thatreminds me of like, in Philippians,
where Paul is like, focused on whatever'srighteous and pure and all the other
attributes that he listed that I can'trecall off the top of my head right now.
Um, But it also reminds you of in Romans,where it's like we have to renew our mind
(10:05):
and not conform to things of this world.
So I feel like that gives you that extraedge and step to not only not do those
things, but also when you have thosevisceral reactions of, um, like you said,
I can't help but think this, but I don'tthink God's asking, well, he's not asking
us to be perfect, but be intentional aboutcounteracting those visceral thoughts.
(10:26):
By renewing our mind, like the scripturesays to do, if that makes sense.
Keith (10:29):
I hear that.
Yeah.
That sounds probably really good.
No, it feels like in some use cases thatI'm thinking of, it just feels like,
like it's coming from privilege, right?
Because I can tell you to renew yourmind and not think this thing, but if
you're hungry and you know of a placewhere you may be able to get food
(10:51):
without paying for it, have a hard timebelieving that God sees that in the same
way that someone who's just greedy Yeah.
It takes far more than theywould ever need, right?
I, God knows us, He knows our situation,He knows our thoughts, He knows our
weaknesses and sometimes, you know, Idon't know that those weaknesses, well,
(11:15):
I know my weaknesses weren't choices.
Like those are, they feel like programmingand I have to work to unlearn and
unprogram myself, but there are a fairamount of sins, you know, things that are
like, like even against, you know, the,the, the Ten Commandments where it's like.
But under certain circumstancesand situations, I can absolutely
(11:35):
understand and I don't even feellike they're necessarily wrong.
I think there are a lot, there'sprobably a bigger system that's wrong.
You were, you kind of started thisconversation talking about man and
how we've had our hands in thisconversation and we've kind of created
these rules and these standards.
(11:56):
And I think that is where, thatis where I believe there are
hierarchical like teachings or beliefsthat don't feel as right to me.
Um, I think that in any system, thepeople who are, are in power are
going to discount the things thatthey do or the things that they like.
(12:21):
That may be deemed said and emphasizedand make sure that they like beat
on the people who have weaknessesand errors that they don't.
Um, and one of those things thatthat comes to mind is in the church,
you know, there's like a thematic,there's a church, there's a pastor
and the pastor might be doing X, Y,Z that he's not supposed to be doing.
(12:45):
But then that same pastor will go up andwe'll talk about homosexuality and we'll
talk about, you know, women, any typeof autonomy that they try to express.
And how wrong that is, but when it comesto like their lust or their greed, Oh,
I can justify it by using this, youknow, cherry pick scripture because
(13:08):
I'm the person with the microphone.
And I think that thatthat's true for government.
I think that's true for households,you know, and I try to even in my
house and try not to be so biased.
And some of the, the, you know, I don'twant to say rules cause I'm not, you know,
(13:28):
I don't want to get beat up when I gethome, but the things that we try to adhere
to, right, how do I make it consistent?
And how do I make sure that even forthis three and five year old girl,
I'm not presenting myself to be ahypocrite and doing the things that
I say they shouldn't do, especiallybecause I'm a man and they're girls.
(13:49):
Um, that was a lot, but, but yeah, Ithink there's just so many opportunities
where when you're in the seat toset the rules and set the hierarchy,
you're gonna do it in a way thatbenefits you to do what you like.
Katelyn (14:02):
End of the day, you don't have as much to be accountable for at that point.
Just like, hey, this is actually okay.
So I don't have to answer to this.
And now you feel better about yourself.
Keith (14:12):
Yeah.
Katelyn (14:12):
And hence that whole, you know crazy cycle.
That kind of brings me to the, uh,it reminds me of the video that
we, we watched with Kirk Franklin.
Keith (14:20):
Mm-Hmm.
. Katelyn: Um, and he was talking about how the church, like you were mentioning,
also imposes their beliefs on the people,whether that be like sex before marriage
or just marriage in general for women.
Um, and like reminding women of theirbiological clocks and things like that.
Uh, he also says on a couple otherthings that I can't really remember,
but those stuck out to me becauseI am a woman and I am in a career.
(14:43):
That has me to be focusedand will take a while.
I'll be 34 before I'm likeon my own being a surgeon.
So like...
That's not that old, but just,
Katelyn (14:52):
Oh, right.
You were born in the eighties.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's old to me now because I'm 23.
So 34 sounds very far away, but, um,but yeah, like, you know, just like
hearing all that the church proposed,it reminds me of my childhood.
So I grew up in aChristian private school.
(15:12):
Okay.
And I have vivid memories of like, uh,my basketball coach, he was forced to
apologize because him and his girlfriendwere having a baby before marriage.
Keith (15:21):
Apologize to the, to the...
Katelyn (15:23):
kids, like, because he was saying they were saying that he didn't set a good
example for us, like it should have been
devotion to God, marriage, thenhave the child, you know, and the
fact that it was out of order, thenthey said that, that he owes us an
apology because he wasn't setting aright example in the Christian faith.
Same thing with my, our assistantprincipals and youth pastor.
(15:43):
They had to tell us in an assembly that,um, in front of their kids also, who
didn't know at the time that they hadan abortion because they didn't want
to have a child out of wedlock beforemarriage, because they said that this
is how you hold people accountable.
And this is how we should be.
Um, exposing our sins orwhatever they deem as sinful to
(16:05):
people to be held accountable.
Uh, so speaking to your, to yourpoint of like, when people do get in
the driver's seat, it kind of fillstheir head with this false sense of
like, almost like a God-like complex.
Like I get to tell you what you're doingwrong, but don't ask me to get up there.
Keith (16:19):
That was my question.
In this church, how often did your pastorcome out and announce that he had XYZ?
Katelyn (16:25):
Never, ever.
Never, ever.
Never, ever.
And, um, uh, yeah, it's veryinteresting, it's very disheartening.
I feel like it's a very dangerous gameto play because at the end they were
kids or even if you're not a child,let's say you're child-like in the faith.
And if you're being misledthat way, that's a very, very
(16:47):
dangerous thing, um, to do.
And ultimately, I mean, theywill be held accountable, but you
know, by God, but still Um, you'reinfluencing people in their beliefs.
Keith (16:56):
And what, I mean, what better way to make people feel unwelcome
and unloved by Christ than toput you on blast in front of the
church because of what you did?
Katelyn (17:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Keith (17:05):
Whereas I'm supposed to believe that as the head of this church, you've
never, you've never done anything wrong.
And even like with the, withthe sex thing, you know, we talk
about premarital sex is a sin.
Like I'm, I'll accept that.
I'm guilty of it.
I'll accept it.
But the way we say, but if you're awoman, it's worse than if you're a man.
(17:29):
Like no one, no one has ever, I've nevereven heard anybody try to justify it.
It's just something that's baked intoour I won't even say our faith because
I don't know that it's true to doctrine,but our the culture of Christianity
We're gonna treat her different.
We're gonna oh, she's pregnant.
She can't be an acquirer Whereas theythe very man who got her pregnant
(17:51):
because he has no physical evidencelike he could do whatever he wants to do
Katelyn (17:54):
I was just about to say that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll just say like becausewomen do carry the physical evidence
of having child but I also think thatthere is a lack of Um, appropriate
accountability to men and their actionswhen it comes to that, like growing,
like, you know, Oh, boys will be boys.
Oh, he's just, you know,like they're just immature.
But like as a woman, I didn't havethat same leeway to just be immature.
(18:17):
It was like, Oh, you're being fast.
You're being this.
You're like, you have to walka straight and narrow line.
Um, and I think it like in mypersonal opinion, I do think it is
because of the, you know, externalevidence that nobody wants that
shame on their family or whatever,that that's so pressured onto women.
Um, but ultimately at the day,like both people suffer the
consequences in just different ways.
(18:38):
Even if the guy is not there presentas a father, like he's still suffering
consequences in some capacity.
Um, so
Keith (18:48):
Yeah, I know that to be true, but that's one of those areas where I
think I even if I'm honest with myself,because I have daughters, I probably
do think of things differently justbecause I know that there's, there's
a much higher likelihood that if
one of them were to bear a childbefore getting married, they would end
(19:08):
up bearing much more of that burdenthan whatever man, you know engaged
with But I also wanted to get intobecause like we talked a lot about
what we think, but I you know I was inmy word because you know the word is
Katelyn (19:23):
Come on in the word
Keith (19:24):
is where it comes from and even the word had me confused.
Um, and so there's a scripture, um,like there, there, I think there
are a lot of scriptures that kindof speak to their all sins being
kind of equal in God's eyes, right?
But then the one that stands out to meand it's in one of probably the defining
(19:45):
scene of Christianity and that's atthe cross, you know, you have in, let
me, let me make sure I got it right.
Katelyn (19:51):
I was going to say I'm right with you.
Keith (19:53):
So we in John 19.
Katelyn (19:54):
Okay.
I'm going to John.
Keith (19:57):
I don't know how to say it.
Pilate says, "Don't you realize
I have power either to freeyou or to crucify you?"
And Jesus, the main character ofthis whole thing answered, "You
would have no power over me if itwere not given to you from above.
Therefore, the one whohanded me over to you.
Is guilty of a greater sin."
(20:18):
If
Jesus is using the phrase, a greater sin,doesn't that introduce concrete evidence
that there is some version of a hierarchy?
That one, but wait, there's more.
Katelyn (20:37):
I have no words.
Keith (20:38):
Then there's the unforgivable Matthew 12 31.
"Therefore, I tell you that everysin and blasphemy will be forgiven,
but the blasphemy against thespirit will not be forgiven."
So again, we're differentiating.
Sin, sin, but this one is unique andif there are unique sins, then doesn't
(21:02):
that kind of negate this whole ideaof them all being equal in God's eye?
Not the only time in the Bible Iget confused by one thing being said
somewhere, something else somewhere else.
Um, but I think for this topic, thosetwo scriptures really stood out to
me as, Um, I don't want to say proofcause I'm sure there are pastors
(21:24):
listening to this who are like screamingat their phone or their screen and
saying, "you don't know the context."
And if, if, if there's contextthat we don't know, I, I beg you.
Katelyn (21:33):
Send it to that email.
Keith (21:34):
Send us those emails, get in those comments.
I want this to be like dialogue, butthat piece like really kind of made me
sit back and say, Oh, that thing that Ifeel might be warranted, that there is
some version of a worse or better saying.
Katelyn (21:48):
Yeah.
Like I said, I ain'tnever heard that before.
That's wow.
Keith (21:53):
Right.
At the, on Calvary.
Katelyn (21:55):
on Calvary.
It's like the.
Yeah.
But I guess you can get into thesemantics, it's just like, Oh,
what's the translation of greaterlike the Greek translation.
Your translation.
Yeah.
Keith (22:04):
And with any version of the Bible.
It's like, all right, whoput their hands in it?
And was this the part we weresupposed to receive and how are we
supposed to interpret and act on it?
But yeah, I'm, I'm very interestedto hear what, what Pas or somebody
has to say about that part, becauseI was all on like, okay, maybe
this is how, okay, wait a minute.
I feel like maybe I'mvalidated a bit in this belief.
Katelyn (22:26):
That's very interesting.
I'm going to have to go look at that.
Yeah.
Keith (22:28):
Yeah.
Um, I guess that leaves us at a unclear.
Katelyn (22:35):
Question.
Keith (22:36):
Which is not often, but you know, it's not rare that I do some research
on something to figure out what Godwants me to do and I end up on unclear.
Um, so yeah, sorry if anybody watchingthis was looking for the answer.
I ain't got it.
Katelyn (22:56):
My brain is over here like turning gears.
Like, what is the answer?
Cause I can't be left with unclear.
Keith (23:02):
I guess in, in practice or like in terms of application, try not to
sin, but like, if it does feel like oneof those big sins to you, maybe that's
God letting you know that like, youdefinitely shouldn't be doing that one.
Now the gluttony thing, I did have icecream last night and I wasn't hungry.
(23:23):
So I'm working on that one.
Katelyn (23:26):
Well, guys, thank you for listening to the Saved-ish podcast.
Once again, I'm Katelyn.
And, uh, we hope this conversation wasfruitful, even though, uh, we still have
more questions even after the questions.
Keith (23:38):
That's how it goes.
Katelyn (23:38):
Um, yeah.
And that's, that's just how you growin Christ and get to know him more.
Uh, so like always follow and like us at,uh, on Instagram, on Twitter, also known
as X now and on YouTube at savedishpod.
And that's savedishpod, all one word.
And like Keith was saying earlier,like be interactive with us.
We want to hear what y'all have to say.
Hit us up on the email.
(23:58):
If y'all have answers to some of thequestions that we were asking on here.
Um, feel free to share,we'd love to hear from you.
And yeah, look forward toseeing y'all next time.
What's up everybody and welcome back to the same dish podcast.
We have conversations about beingyoung, Christian and imperfect.
I'm Keith.
And I'm Caitlin.
Uh, and Caitlin, I want tointroduce you to something that we
do at the beginning of episodes.
It is called the issue of the week.
Um, issue of the week is justsomething that has been bothering you,
something you've been struggling with.
(00:37):
Uh, that you just want to shareand, and hopefully, you know, we can
maybe quickly help you to navigate.
Uh, so you want me to go first?
You want to go first?
Katelyn (00:45):
You go first.
Keith (00:46):
All right.
So my ish of the week is just a lack ofclarity on like what God wants me to do.
Like, I feel like careerwise, I'm kind of at a fork.
Like I have a startup, asoftware platform is doing well,
but it could be doing better.
And so I'm considering.
Potentially going back towork, and maybe juggling.
(01:09):
Uh, but I know that would take a lot ofthe momentum and a lot of the attention
away from, let's just start up, so.
Been praying a lot about it, um, and,and, and really just trying to get out
the way and let God show me what, whatI'm supposed to be doing right now.
Katelyn (01:23):
Sound like a whole episode by yourself.
Keith (01:25):
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Katelyn (01:26):
How to lean on him, when it don't look good.
Ha ha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, I hope everything works out for us.
So yeah, but, um,
Keith (01:38):
What's your ish?
Katelyn (01:38):
My ish, uh, I had like this just one day where everything was going wrong.
I hit somebody's car.
I fell, I stabbed myselfwith a knife on accident.
And to top it all off, right before Iwas going to bed, I stepped on a nail.
Yeah.
Love my life.
So, um, those are my ish in one.
It was the entire day.
Keith (01:57):
Okay, let's rewind.
You hit somebody.
Is that something youwant to admit on air?
Katelyn (02:03):
I tapped her window.
Or side mirror, okay?
Like, she was being dramatic.
And then when I went to go say, hey,do you want to exchange insurance?
It was, oh no, we ain'tgot to do all that.
Then why are you sitting here in my face?
Cussing me out.
Saying all kinds of crazy things.
Keith (02:16):
She cursed you out?
Katelyn (02:17):
I started crying.
Keith (02:18):
You cried?
You gotta tighten up.
You can't be out here weak.
Katelyn (02:21):
But by the time, by the time that had happened, I had already fallen,
I had already had the knife stabbing,and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Keith (02:26):
Alright, so, we, we worked through the, the accident.
The knife, you stabbed yourself, or?
Katelyn (02:33):
Yeah, so, my knife was in my backpack, because I
was going to bring a, a knife.
Uh, what do you call those things?
A mango to school for a snack?
Quick, quick, quick snack.
And, uh, the knife went through mybackpack and as I was like going to
put my backpack on, it just said,and I was like, oh, this is new.
You know, I don't have a scar.
Keith (02:51):
Alright, so maybe, maybe let's not.
Katelyn (02:52):
Yeah, you live and you learn.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm living and I'm learning.
Keith (02:57):
Okay, so that's two.
I feel like there were at least two more.
Katelyn (03:00):
Yeah, I fell because my dog wouldn't listen,
so I slipped on something.
Keith (03:03):
So you're blaming the dog?
Katelyn (03:04):
Absolutely, because he didn't listen.
If he'd listened, Iwouldn't have ran after him.
And I ran after him, and Idid the James Brown split.
And, you know, it's terrible.
Keith (03:10):
So no accountability.
You punking out in the street.
Katelyn (03:13):
Wow.
Keith (03:14):
You stabbing yourself.
You're packing irresponsibly.
Katelyn (03:16):
Nice.
Keith (03:17):
I'm hearing a lot.
And then the last thing was what?
Katelyn (03:20):
The nail.
The nail in the coffin, and in my foot.
Keith (03:24):
So you stepped on a nail.
So you need to get a tetanus shot.
Katelyn (03:26):
Yeah.
Already done.
Keith (03:27):
Good.
Uh, I don't know if we shared this,but this will eventually be Dr.
Katelyn.
Um, she's way smarter than me and she's inlike medical school and I assume she knew
what to do about the cut and the foot, but
Katelyn (03:41):
I actually called my mom.
I did not know what to do.
Keith (03:44):
You know, American healthcare System,
That's it.
That's it.
That's where we are.
Yeah.
Um, well that's a lot.
Um.
Katelyn (03:51):
It is a lot.
Keith (03:51):
I don't think we have a lot of time to unpack all of that.
Katelyn (03:53):
Right.
Keith (03:53):
But I hope that your foot and your leg.
And you're just kind of like bravery inthese streets, like all those things.
Hope you're better.
I'm sorry you went through all that.
Katelyn (04:06):
Nah it's cool.
Keith (04:07):
I'm here if you need me.
Katelyn (04:08):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Keith (04:09):
No, I'm busy.
Katelyn (04:10):
Yeah.
That's, oh, so you feel,you know, that's hilarious.
Anyways.
Keith (04:14):
All right.
What are we talking about today?
Katelyn (04:15):
Yeah.
So y'all remember last time we talkedabout introduction, we talked about
salvation and how that is basically on thebasis of God showing us unconditional love
and then trailing that unconditional love,
now we're going to expose how weas humans, we are very conditional
and what do we do to rationalizethe different decisions and things
that we make, we, yeah, that wemake, we make a hierarchy of sin.
Keith (04:38):
Hierarchy.
Katelyn (04:38):
What is worse than the other?
If I kill somebody, that's notas bad as stealing a Snickers
bar from the store, right?
Well, actually flip that, theSnickers bar is not a joke.
Keith (04:47):
Yeah, I was going to say, I think.
Katelyn (04:49):
Right.
Keith (04:50):
I think it's the other way around.
Katelyn (04:50):
Y'all knew what I meant though.
But you shouldn't have known whatI meant because God doesn't see
it that way because everythingis the same in his eyes.
Keith (04:58):
So I've heard that.
Um, don't know that I believe that.
Uh, it's, it's one of those, uh,Christianisms that I just have a
really hard time coming to grips with.
Um, you know, to your point, there arequote, unquote, big sins, like, you know,
taking a life or, or other things thatwe don't necessarily need to get into.
(05:22):
And then there are seeminglysmall sins that And I guess
to, to try to tell me that
looking at someone and feeling envy isjust as bad as taking a life, assaulting
somebody, you know, doing things thatcause, like, massive amounts of harm are
(05:45):
the same in God's eyes, is something thatI've never been able to really accept.
Am I the only one?
Katelyn (05:53):
No, that, I mean, like, I guess if you're looking at it from, like, a
human perspective, it totally makes sense.
Like, it's like, okay, like, Iwill kill somebody's grandma.
That's terrible, right?
Not the grandma, my bad grandma,but you know, like something
harsh like that versus what we'veseen is like hard, not as harsh.
Like in our, because we have this likeconditions that are set up with it.
(06:14):
So I feel like that kind of brings itto like two different points that I
think of is like one, um, they alwaystalk about how like you have the, the
white lamb and then like the bloodstain, or like you have like a And
then you put like one speck of dirt.
Now the water's dirty.
I feel like that's kind of how God,when you sin, like if I could try to
put myself in his shoes, even though Icannot, but if I like try to think about
(06:34):
it from his point of view, it's likeif I have a white piece of paper and
then I even like, let's say I droppedmy Sharpie on that piece of paper on
accident and a dot gets on the paperand that paper is no longer fully white.
So it's kind of like anall or nothing type deal.
Like.
You know, like, or a light switch.
That's a perfect example.
There's no in between for a light switch.
Either the light is onor the light is off.
And that's the absolute that Godworks in when it comes to sin.
(06:56):
And so that's why, like,they all are the same.
However, I personally believe, thisis not scripture based, this is my
opinion, but I personally believe that,um, another way that God sees it is
like, you have different consequencesthat are harsher for different sins.
It's like, yeah, he may see the sinsthe same, but the, the punishment or
(07:18):
the consequences or the reaping of youractions is where like the hierarchy
comes from, if that makes sense.
Keith (07:24):
Right.
So you're saying you, you know, theaction or the act is either a sin
or it's not, but if it's on that sinside, there are likely to be some
version of like tiers or categories.
Um, and I hope so.
Right.
I think.
I think about, um, I don't evenremember where I heard this, but someone
(07:46):
suggested that like, if you look ata woman and you feel lust, that's
no better than committing adultery.
And like, try to tell my wife thatand just see, see how that goes.
Like, I, I just, I don'tthink she would like that.
I just don't.
And I, I don't know, I don't know ifI should even be trying to get to that
(08:07):
place, but like, I understand thereare certain things that I probably
shouldn't do or areas where I'm weak.
And I need to grow and mature, butin terms of like them being on the
same playing field, there are certainthings that I can, you know, with 99.
9 percent confidence tell you I wouldnever do under any circumstance.
(08:29):
And I don't even understand howpeople could do those things.
And there are other things where I feellike, okay, I don't even know if I had
control over that feeling of, of envy.
And so if I don't have control overit, or if, you know, it wasn't a
conscious choice, how can it be thesame as something that's super severe
(08:51):
and you can't undo, you know, wetalked about like, like taking a life,
like, there's no making that right.
So I, I I don't know.
I don't know.
I struggle with that.
Um, this as a topic, I've kind of, I don'teven really debate it anymore because
I'm like, no, they can't all be the same.
(09:12):
That just doesn't make sense.
Some of this stuff is out of our control.
Um, but, but I do know that thereare Christians and there are
people who will frame it that way.
And that makes me uncomfortable.
Katelyn (09:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like something that yousaid that stuck out to me is when
you were going back to the, like,doing the sin versus thinking it.
Um, I was talking to one of my friendsone time, we were like, basically kind
of talking about the similar thingabout being disciplined in your actions,
but he took it a step further and waslike, you know, like, that's cool to
(09:44):
not do X, Y, and Z, but if, if you'rethinking like, you need to change your
mind, like purify your mind, and thatreminds me of like, in Philippians,
where Paul is like, focused on whatever'srighteous and pure and all the other
attributes that he listed that I can'trecall off the top of my head right now.
Um, But it also reminds you of in Romans,where it's like we have to renew our mind
(10:05):
and not conform to things of this world.
So I feel like that gives you that extraedge and step to not only not do those
things, but also when you have thosevisceral reactions of, um, like you said,
I can't help but think this, but I don'tthink God's asking, well, he's not asking
us to be perfect, but be intentional aboutcounteracting those visceral thoughts.
(10:26):
By renewing our mind, like the scripturesays to do, if that makes sense.
Keith (10:29):
I hear that.
Yeah.
That sounds probably really good.
No, it feels like in some use cases thatI'm thinking of, it just feels like,
like it's coming from privilege, right?
Because I can tell you to renew yourmind and not think this thing, but if
you're hungry and you know of a placewhere you may be able to get food
(10:51):
without paying for it, have a hard timebelieving that God sees that in the same
way that someone who's just greedy Yeah.
It takes far more than theywould ever need, right?
I, God knows us, He knows our situation,He knows our thoughts, He knows our
weaknesses and sometimes, you know, Idon't know that those weaknesses, well,
(11:15):
I know my weaknesses weren't choices.
Like those are, they feel like programmingand I have to work to unlearn and
unprogram myself, but there are a fairamount of sins, you know, things that are
like, like even against, you know, the,the, the Ten Commandments where it's like.
But under certain circumstancesand situations, I can absolutely
(11:35):
understand and I don't even feellike they're necessarily wrong.
I think there are a lot, there'sprobably a bigger system that's wrong.
You were, you kind of started thisconversation talking about man and
how we've had our hands in thisconversation and we've kind of created
these rules and these standards.
(11:56):
And I think that is where, thatis where I believe there are
hierarchical like teachings or beliefsthat don't feel as right to me.
Um, I think that in any system, thepeople who are, are in power are
going to discount the things thatthey do or the things that they like.
(12:21):
That may be deemed said and emphasizedand make sure that they like beat
on the people who have weaknessesand errors that they don't.
Um, and one of those things thatthat comes to mind is in the church,
you know, there's like a thematic,there's a church, there's a pastor
and the pastor might be doing X, Y,Z that he's not supposed to be doing.
(12:45):
But then that same pastor will go up andwe'll talk about homosexuality and we'll
talk about, you know, women, any typeof autonomy that they try to express.
And how wrong that is, but when it comesto like their lust or their greed, Oh,
I can justify it by using this, youknow, cherry pick scripture because
(13:08):
I'm the person with the microphone.
And I think that thatthat's true for government.
I think that's true for households,you know, and I try to even in my
house and try not to be so biased.
And some of the, the, you know, I don'twant to say rules cause I'm not, you know,
(13:28):
I don't want to get beat up when I gethome, but the things that we try to adhere
to, right, how do I make it consistent?
And how do I make sure that even forthis three and five year old girl,
I'm not presenting myself to be ahypocrite and doing the things that
I say they shouldn't do, especiallybecause I'm a man and they're girls.
(13:49):
Um, that was a lot, but, but yeah, Ithink there's just so many opportunities
where when you're in the seat toset the rules and set the hierarchy,
you're gonna do it in a way thatbenefits you to do what you like.
Katelyn (14:02):
End of the day, you don't have as much to be accountable for at that point.
Just like, hey, this is actually okay.
So I don't have to answer to this.
And now you feel better about yourself.
Keith (14:12):
Yeah.
Katelyn (14:12):
And hence that whole, you know crazy cycle.
That kind of brings me to the, uh,it reminds me of the video that
we, we watched with Kirk Franklin.
Keith (14:20):
Mm-Hmm.
. Katelyn: Um, and he was talking about how the church, like you were mentioning,
also imposes their beliefs on the people,whether that be like sex before marriage
or just marriage in general for women.
Um, and like reminding women of theirbiological clocks and things like that.
Uh, he also says on a couple otherthings that I can't really remember,
but those stuck out to me becauseI am a woman and I am in a career.
(14:43):
That has me to be focusedand will take a while.
I'll be 34 before I'm likeon my own being a surgeon.
So like...
That's not that old, but just,
Katelyn (14:52):
Oh, right.
You were born in the eighties.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's old to me now because I'm 23.
So 34 sounds very far away, but, um,but yeah, like, you know, just like
hearing all that the church proposed,it reminds me of my childhood.
So I grew up in aChristian private school.
(15:12):
Okay.
And I have vivid memories of like, uh,my basketball coach, he was forced to
apologize because him and his girlfriendwere having a baby before marriage.
Keith (15:21):
Apologize to the, to the...
Katelyn (15:23):
kids, like, because he was saying they were saying that he didn't set a good
example for us, like it should have been
devotion to God, marriage, thenhave the child, you know, and the
fact that it was out of order, thenthey said that, that he owes us an
apology because he wasn't setting aright example in the Christian faith.
Same thing with my, our assistantprincipals and youth pastor.
(15:43):
They had to tell us in an assembly that,um, in front of their kids also, who
didn't know at the time that they hadan abortion because they didn't want
to have a child out of wedlock beforemarriage, because they said that this
is how you hold people accountable.
And this is how we should be.
Um, exposing our sins orwhatever they deem as sinful to
(16:05):
people to be held accountable.
Uh, so speaking to your, to yourpoint of like, when people do get in
the driver's seat, it kind of fillstheir head with this false sense of
like, almost like a God-like complex.
Like I get to tell you what you're doingwrong, but don't ask me to get up there.
Keith (16:19):
That was my question.
In this church, how often did your pastorcome out and announce that he had XYZ?
Katelyn (16:25):
Never, ever.
Never, ever.
Never, ever.
And, um, uh, yeah, it's veryinteresting, it's very disheartening.
I feel like it's a very dangerous gameto play because at the end they were
kids or even if you're not a child,let's say you're child-like in the faith.
And if you're being misledthat way, that's a very, very
(16:47):
dangerous thing, um, to do.
And ultimately, I mean, theywill be held accountable, but you
know, by God, but still Um, you'reinfluencing people in their beliefs.
Keith (16:56):
And what, I mean, what better way to make people feel unwelcome
and unloved by Christ than toput you on blast in front of the
church because of what you did?
Katelyn (17:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Keith (17:05):
Whereas I'm supposed to believe that as the head of this church, you've
never, you've never done anything wrong.
And even like with the, withthe sex thing, you know, we talk
about premarital sex is a sin.
Like I'm, I'll accept that.
I'm guilty of it.
I'll accept it.
But the way we say, but if you're awoman, it's worse than if you're a man.
(17:29):
Like no one, no one has ever, I've nevereven heard anybody try to justify it.
It's just something that's baked intoour I won't even say our faith because
I don't know that it's true to doctrine,but our the culture of Christianity
We're gonna treat her different.
We're gonna oh, she's pregnant.
She can't be an acquirer Whereas theythe very man who got her pregnant
(17:51):
because he has no physical evidencelike he could do whatever he wants to do
Katelyn (17:54):
I was just about to say that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll just say like becausewomen do carry the physical evidence
of having child but I also think thatthere is a lack of Um, appropriate
accountability to men and their actionswhen it comes to that, like growing,
like, you know, Oh, boys will be boys.
Oh, he's just, you know,like they're just immature.
But like as a woman, I didn't havethat same leeway to just be immature.
(18:17):
It was like, Oh, you're being fast.
You're being this.
You're like, you have to walka straight and narrow line.
Um, and I think it like in mypersonal opinion, I do think it is
because of the, you know, externalevidence that nobody wants that
shame on their family or whatever,that that's so pressured onto women.
Um, but ultimately at the day,like both people suffer the
consequences in just different ways.
(18:38):
Even if the guy is not there presentas a father, like he's still suffering
consequences in some capacity.
Um, so
Keith (18:48):
Yeah, I know that to be true, but that's one of those areas where I
think I even if I'm honest with myself,because I have daughters, I probably
do think of things differently justbecause I know that there's, there's
a much higher likelihood that if
one of them were to bear a childbefore getting married, they would end
(19:08):
up bearing much more of that burdenthan whatever man, you know engaged
with But I also wanted to get intobecause like we talked a lot about
what we think, but I you know I was inmy word because you know the word is
Katelyn (19:23):
Come on in the word
Keith (19:24):
is where it comes from and even the word had me confused.
Um, and so there's a scripture, um,like there, there, I think there
are a lot of scriptures that kindof speak to their all sins being
kind of equal in God's eyes, right?
But then the one that stands out to meand it's in one of probably the defining
(19:45):
scene of Christianity and that's atthe cross, you know, you have in, let
me, let me make sure I got it right.
Katelyn (19:51):
I was going to say I'm right with you.
Keith (19:53):
So we in John 19.
Katelyn (19:54):
Okay.
I'm going to John.
Keith (19:57):
I don't know how to say it.
Pilate says, "Don't you realize
I have power either to freeyou or to crucify you?"
And Jesus, the main character ofthis whole thing answered, "You
would have no power over me if itwere not given to you from above.
Therefore, the one whohanded me over to you.
Is guilty of a greater sin."
(20:18):
If
Jesus is using the phrase, a greater sin,doesn't that introduce concrete evidence
that there is some version of a hierarchy?
That one, but wait, there's more.
Katelyn (20:37):
I have no words.
Keith (20:38):
Then there's the unforgivable Matthew 12 31.
"Therefore, I tell you that everysin and blasphemy will be forgiven,
but the blasphemy against thespirit will not be forgiven."
So again, we're differentiating.
Sin, sin, but this one is unique andif there are unique sins, then doesn't
(21:02):
that kind of negate this whole ideaof them all being equal in God's eye?
Not the only time in the Bible Iget confused by one thing being said
somewhere, something else somewhere else.
Um, but I think for this topic, thosetwo scriptures really stood out to
me as, Um, I don't want to say proofcause I'm sure there are pastors
(21:24):
listening to this who are like screamingat their phone or their screen and
saying, "you don't know the context."
And if, if, if there's contextthat we don't know, I, I beg you.
Katelyn (21:33):
Send it to that email.
Keith (21:34):
Send us those emails, get in those comments.
I want this to be like dialogue, butthat piece like really kind of made me
sit back and say, Oh, that thing that Ifeel might be warranted, that there is
some version of a worse or better saying.
Katelyn (21:48):
Yeah.
Like I said, I ain'tnever heard that before.
That's wow.
Keith (21:53):
Right.
At the, on Calvary.
Katelyn (21:55):
on Calvary.
It's like the.
Yeah.
But I guess you can get into thesemantics, it's just like, Oh,
what's the translation of greaterlike the Greek translation.
Your translation.
Yeah.
Keith (22:04):
And with any version of the Bible.
It's like, all right, whoput their hands in it?
And was this the part we weresupposed to receive and how are we
supposed to interpret and act on it?
But yeah, I'm, I'm very interestedto hear what, what Pas or somebody
has to say about that part, becauseI was all on like, okay, maybe
this is how, okay, wait a minute.
I feel like maybe I'mvalidated a bit in this belief.
Katelyn (22:26):
That's very interesting.
I'm going to have to go look at that.
Yeah.
Keith (22:28):
Yeah.
Um, I guess that leaves us at a unclear.
Katelyn (22:35):
Question.
Keith (22:36):
Which is not often, but you know, it's not rare that I do some research
on something to figure out what Godwants me to do and I end up on unclear.
Um, so yeah, sorry if anybody watchingthis was looking for the answer.
I ain't got it.
Katelyn (22:56):
My brain is over here like turning gears.
Like, what is the answer?
Cause I can't be left with unclear.
Keith (23:02):
I guess in, in practice or like in terms of application, try not to
sin, but like, if it does feel like oneof those big sins to you, maybe that's
God letting you know that like, youdefinitely shouldn't be doing that one.
Now the gluttony thing, I did have icecream last night and I wasn't hungry.
(23:23):
So I'm working on that one.
Katelyn (23:26):
Well, guys, thank you for listening to the Saved-ish podcast.
Once again, I'm Katelyn.
And, uh, we hope this conversation wasfruitful, even though, uh, we still have
more questions even after the questions.
Keith (23:38):
That's how it goes.
Katelyn (23:38):
Um, yeah.
And that's, that's just how you growin Christ and get to know him more.
Uh, so like always follow and like us at,uh, on Instagram, on Twitter, also known
as X now and on YouTube at savedishpod.
And that's savedishpod, all one word.
And like Keith was saying earlier,like be interactive with us.
We want to hear what y'all have to say.
Hit us up on the email.
(23:58):
If y'all have answers to some of thequestions that we were asking on here.
Um, feel free to share,we'd love to hear from you.
And yeah, look forward toseeing y'all next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.