August 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Episode 9 speed-runs the biggest retention levers brands can pull to increase revenue growth and improve order volume. They debunk deliverability myths (image–text ratios, why adding real text helps), along with comparing the differences of plain-text vs image-heavy emails. Jacob Sappington also clarifies Klaviyo vs GA vs ad platform attribution and how Klaviyo’s new active-profile enforcement curbs old billing “hacks."
Key Takeaways:
- The single change to a pop-up that can spike opt-ins and orders immediately
- Why you should change the pop-up and not your flows first
- Offer vs build vs creative: how should you weight each for mobile pop-ups
- Why this one thing is likely killing your Landing Page's performance to convert.
- How your traffic source may be affecting your conversion rate
- The easy setup mistakes that are likely throttling the performance of your email flows
- The magic number of how often 7- and 8-figure brands should email and text without burning the list
- Are third-party identity tools worth the risk and which safer paths exist
To learn more about the Scalability School Podcast or listen to other episodes head to https://scalabilityschool.com
To Connect with Jacob Sappington send him a DM at https://x.com/jsappington
To connect with Andrew Foxwell send an email Andrew@foxwelldigital.com
To connect with Brad Ploch send him a DM at https://x.com/brad_ploch
To connect with Zach Stuck send him a DM at https://x.com/zachmstuck
Learn More about the Foxwell Founders Community at https://foxwellfounders.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
brands just have really bad popups.
You know, the past couple of years,
they're kind of becoming like a cool
thing again, but for so long, I think
they're just ignored and it just
felt like something that was never
cohesive to the site.
And so it just feels like they're
actually being taken seriously.
And there's been a lot
of players into the space.
And so yeah, I'm here for it.
If I'm pulling levers, I get into a
client's email account and like the
first couple of things that I can do is
(01:00:20):
either send more emails, make
the emails look prettier.
I can fix the pop-up or I can go and
start messing with flows.
Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
like, do you have any
examples of like simple changes that you
made to the pop-up or any
changes that you made that led to a
pretty big impact for opt-in rights
and probably revenues or results?
Pop-up is like the lowest lift, highest
impact place that we can touch.
(01:00:41):
It's always a part of our initial plans
for how we help our clients grow.
You know, developing an email takes time,
especially when you're first
meeting a client and getting to know
their voice and everything.
But we can probably nail like 20 words of
coffee on a pop-up pretty quickly.
But like just last week, we had a client
where it was, it was as simple
as just making a pop-up a full screen.
It was a, a white box variant versus a
full screen variant, five and a half
percent to 8.3% same AOV, double orders
(01:01:04):
and double the conversion rate.
All these inbox providers and primarily
Google, Google's probably
going to make up 60%
of your list, maybe 70%.
Um, they don't tell you what they factor
into for deliverability.
And so you're kind of always making some
assumptions that people always
talk about like an image to text ratio.
I think 60, 40 people recommend, but a
few stuff, text into your emails,
they're likely going to
inbox a little better.
(01:01:24):
And that's, um, there, I mean, there's
softwares that are set up around
this, uh, are just injecting text into
your emails to help you, uh,
inbox a little bit.
Yeah.
Would you trust like a one
hour view based attribution?
If it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
Snapchat says meta click based.
I started to get a little bit more
trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot
of nuance there too.
So anyways, not to be real.
And now let's take a listen to the
(01:01:49):
scalability school podcast.
All right.
Welcome to episode nine of the
scalability school podcast.
Brad and I are here with Jacob Sappington
email SMS retention legend.
And he's going to talk to us today about
how these tactics or how we can use
tactics on these channels, uh, to
actually make money today, Jacob.
Welcome to the show.
(01:02:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me guys.
It's my first podcast in a while.
So, uh, it's good to be back.
Yeah.
Well, we, uh, we kicked Zach off in
exchange, so we're, we're much
happier for you to be
here than, than him.
Yeah.
Off the Island.
Yeah.
Off the Island.
Yeah.
He had too many Twitter followers.
So where does it now it's called the
losers and the econ
and Brad and I hosted.
Yeah.
Um, the, all right.
(01:02:30):
So, you know, there's a ton of things
that we can get into today.
I think obviously everybody's here to
like, what can we do in
retention and SMS better?
Um, I think there's a lot of it that you,
there's a lot of hype and
there's a lot of ups and downs.
Brad, there's some like stuff that you
wanted to get into right away in
terms of hot or not, essentially.
You want to, you want
to kick it off with that?
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know if we're going to
exactly go one by one through this, but
(01:02:50):
I think it'll, uh, if we hit some like
overrated and underrated discussion
points, I think that can push us into, we
can take them and go deeper.
So I'll give you the floor to decide if
you want to expand on any of these things
or not, but I'll just, I'll just kind of
list some things and you let me know how
you're feeling.
Um, all right, let's go.
All right.
Pop up software, um, or I did underrated.
(01:03:10):
I love Clavier software.
It's including your plan.
So I would say, uh, the right ones are
appropriately rated and there's
a lot that are overrated as well.
Okay.
Cool.
So we don't, you don't have
to mention specific providers.
I know you're a big, you're a big fan of
Clavier for lots of reasons.
That was actually something I wanted to
talk about later is like, I feel like
people are perpetually confused about how
(01:03:31):
Clavier bills and I feel like I see you
on Twitter, I'm explaining it to
everybody all the
time we could save that.
Okay.
So I guess let's, let's do, let's do is a
sub bullet point of popups in general
that like, what are people missing with,
with popups that makes them not as
effective as they otherwise should be.
I think for the most part,
Branches have really bad popups.
I think, you know, the past couple of
(01:03:52):
years through amped and through
Alia and through all these other ones,
like they're kind of becoming like a
cool thing again, but for so long, I
think they were just ignored and it just
felt like something that was never
cohesive to the site.
And so it just feels like they're
actually being taken seriously.
And there's been a lot
of players into the space.
And so, yeah, I'm here for it.
I love it.
I want to see, you know,
more people in our space.
(01:04:13):
Do you think that the software is the
thing that like, is it, is it the
software that drives the impact like a,
like an AMP to Oranalia or is it the
copywriting, is it the offer?
Is it some combination of those things?
I'm sure it's a combination, but like,
how would you wait
maybe each of those things?
We always look for three main tactics.
So we think about the offer.
(01:04:33):
I think I could have a great offer and a
terrible looking pop-up and I could rip
options.
Um, I think we think about the build, how
you functionally put it together matters
a lot.
And then the third lever
that we think about is creative.
So headlines, um, you know, you know,
assets that you use for it, those are
important, but like on mobile, we prefer
things to be very direct, not a lot of
(01:04:54):
creative involved in it.
And so it's, it's on there, but it's,
it's third for a reason.
I think the software
can make a difference.
But what I struggle with with different
software vendors is for the most part,
they have the same tech.
What I really struggle with is that, uh,
you know, how someone defines an
impression or who they're defining as an
impression or as a conversion.
None of us just know.
(01:05:15):
So, um, you know, maybe, you know, back
when AMP first came out, like, uh, I
always had like, we, we still use them
because we would like, uh, fact check,
um, email subscribes in Clavio as a
source of truth to make sure that
everything was, um, uh, as an expected,
like, um, you know, you don't just like
clone a pop-up and
double your opt-in rate.
And so I think that the.
(01:05:37):
Biggest confusing point that's still
confusing for me for a lot of sources is
just how do you actually define that?
Um, and trying to get like an Apple
samples comparison to, to traffic.
That's the biggest challenge.
So if we're talking about, let's keep
going on the pop-up thing.
Do you fire pop-ups on landing pages
versus just the main site or do you
fire them on listicles and
not just shopable landers?
(01:05:57):
Like what's your thoughts on that?
Yep.
Um, a lot of brands push the merger with
their traffic to those LPs.
I want to capture traffic there.
It's one of the main ways that we've, uh,
been able to grow this
growth for, um, some of our clients.
The thing is you just have to make sure
that it's relevant to whatever
content you have on the shop or the LP.
Like one of the worst things you could do
is have a BOGO on your shoppable
(01:06:18):
because you're being really aggressive
with some acquisition offer.
And then your pop-up offers 10% off.
And so you're
immediately adding confusion.
You're immediately adding friction.
Someone thinks can I
combine BOGO on 10% off?
Um, it's just like
really weird messaging there.
So, you know, maybe, maybe listicles are,
uh, something that's even
like less offer incentivized.
Maybe it's, um, something, you know,
like, I get maybe a guide of some
(01:06:40):
sorts or, you know, some, some sort of
content that resonates with what
they're actually pushing on the listicle,
but we want the popups on there.
We don't, you know, there's always this
expectation of some level of bounce
rate increase from adding a pop-up.
But the, the, the thought process that we
have is that the LTV of an email
subscriber is higher than the LTV of a
non-email subscriber.
And so my ability to say in front of them
(01:07:01):
and the cheaper method than
meta, um, is really important.
And so, uh, yeah, we still want them on
those places as well.
What do you expect for like good pop-up
rates, like our collection rate?
We see a lot of
brands come to us like 3%.
Um, we've had some brands
that we've been able to rip 20%.
Um, and I think it really just comes down
to the traffic that they're driving.
(01:07:22):
We've had brands we've
struggled to get to 6% too.
And so a lot of times those are brands
that are like, have like really
heavy organic presences as well.
And so the reason they're coming on site
is not the same reason.
You know, if you're running an ad, um,
and someone's interested in buying
today and you're running an offer driven
pop-up, there's probably a pretty high
likelihood that they're interested.
But if someone's coming to you from SEO,
(01:07:43):
from organic social, the reason
that they're there is not to shop likely.
Um, and so those are the
times like brands like that.
We've had brands who had like really
heavy organic presences and we've just
had to separate that traffic out or show
them different pop-ups relative
to why they're on the site.
That's really interesting.
There's, I would love to have like some
specific examples of pop-up changes.
(01:08:04):
So I would say, I'm curious, like if you,
if you broke things down into, we're very
heavily deviated off of this overrated
under-rated and I'm okay with it.
Cause this is really,
this is really interesting.
Like focusing on, um, pop-ups, I think
it'd be interesting to know like where
pop-ups generally speaking, whether it's
the software or not, um, fit into like,
if I'm pulling levers, I get into a
(01:08:24):
client's email account and like the first
couple of things that I can do is either
send more emails, make the emails look
prettier, I can fix the pop-up or I can
go and start messing with flows.
Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
like, let's, let's say that it is the,
the pop-up and maybe you disagree with
that, but like, do you have any examples
of like massive changes or like simple
(01:08:45):
changes that you made to the pop-up or
any changes that you made that led to a
pretty big impact for opt-in rates and
probably revenue as a result.
Yep.
Yep.
Pop-up is like the lowest lift highest
impact place that we can touch.
It's always a part of our initial plans
for how we help our clients grow.
You know, developing an email takes time,
especially when you're first media
(01:09:06):
client and getting to know their voice
and everything, but we can probably
nail like 20 words of copy
on a pop-up pretty quickly.
And we've had clients who, we've had
clients who came on for paid and not
email, and we've seen the pop-up and
said, that's actually problematic.
You're, you're gonna, um, prevent, you
know, put a roadblock towards paid
social, having an impact as well.
And so we've done free pop-ups for
clients like that before in the past,
(01:09:27):
just to not, you know, make
it harder for our paid team.
But like just last week, we had a client
where it was, it was as simple as just
making a pop-up a full screen.
It was a, a light box variant versus a
full screen variant, five and a half
percent to 8.3%.
Um, double the orders, double the, um,
let me think, same AOV double orders
and double the conversion rate.
(01:09:48):
That's pretty, I mean, it's interesting.
You would say, because I feel like a lot
of people come in and looking at flows
as the first place that they're, I mean,
obviously I think that's where a lot of
people go, um, and where a lot of other
email firms go, but you would say pop-up
is an easier one to
win, win with right away.
Pretty interesting.
Brad, feel free to follow if you have
other pop-up questions, but I'm going to
get into like, I'm just going to talk
(01:10:09):
about flows for a second.
So let's say the average client comes in
there, seven to eight figure brand.
They have some flow set up like, you
know, sort of the
standard win back or whatever
else, right?
Like the things that
everybody tells them to put in there.
Where are you going to look for
optimization in terms of places that
a lot of people aren't looking?
(01:10:29):
Yeah.
Before I jump into that one thing I also
just want to think about for pop-ups
is, uh, pop-ups touch everything.
Pop-ups touch your flows.
They're, they directly
feed into your flows.
Um, if I optimize that content or I
optimize the framework, um, but I
don't have more people
coming in, my upside is limited.
If I go from a five person,
I'll turn to an eight percent.
I'll turn to eight.
(01:10:49):
What's that?
Like 40% maybe something like that.
So I try to do math here.
So we don't, yeah, yeah.
Good.
I could call it.
That's a good idea.
That's a good idea.
But anyway, so like I immediately add
more people to the,
to the flow final pains
are a little bit of, um, a lagging
indicator that it's like, it's, it's
like kind of like retirement.
You know, everyone says that if you start
saving for retirement when you're 18, by
the time you're 65, it just like those
(01:11:10):
last 10 years, just like shoot up your
network, it's the same concept where if I
don't start collecting today and I
don't optimize that for today, then six
months from now, I don't have the same
number of people that I could be talking
to as I, as I could.
So Andrew, the, the last thing you said
there was, um, like how do we triage
like where to put our focus at in flows?
Yeah.
I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like
(01:11:30):
everybody had, everybody listening
to this has exposure to
some sort of email work, right?
And I think pop we've identified popups
as being a place that's, that's an
unutilized place or utilized place.
I'm thinking about, all right, what else
are you looking at that like, aren't the
normal things that people would be
looking at in terms of
optimization around flows?
So I would say, do they have all the
(01:11:50):
flows that we would
expect them to have in place?
Are they using either a first party or a
third party identity resolution software
to increase their number of triggered
events for like flows within the flows.
They do have, do they have enough emails?
A while back, a client asked us or a
prospect assets who we end up signing on
with, um, you know, I only have one
email, my I'm going to
check out how much money
is that costing me.
(01:12:11):
And they wanted us to put
like a dollar figure to it.
And so what I went ahead and did was we
took three of our biggest clients, um,
who were doing probably $10 million a
month, just in this single flow.
And we aggregated the numbers and we
basically found out that 50% of all of
your abandoned checkout revenue comes on
email one and then two through five, or
you know, how many emails you have in
(01:12:32):
there contributes to remaining 50%.
So it's almost like I can get $2, but I'm
choosing to pick up $1.
And so it's like, do
you have the right flows?
Do you have enough
emails within those flows?
Do you have any like technical issues in
place that are, but we frequently find
people have flow filters set up
incorrectly or additional filter set up
incorrectly, which you immediately maybe
trim the number of emails that you're
(01:12:53):
going to send to someone
that's a, that's a common one.
And then maybe the content is just bad.
Maybe they're, they're not focusing on
their offers enough.
Like we've had clients or prospects have
came into our, um, into our funnel and
they have an offer on their pop-up and
then they don't send the offer via
email for 30 minutes or the whole entire
first email doesn't contain the offer.
And so they aren't
getting that for a full day.
(01:13:13):
So I would say like the biggest bucket of
issues are, do you have the right flows?
Do you have enough emails?
Are you layering an SMS in there?
Um, but then there's a lot
of like small technical things
that can break things as well.
So just to be clear, these flows, these
are like abandoned
checkout, welcome flow.
What are the other ones?
Yeah.
What's that?
So like the welcome flow,
the browser abandoned flow.
(01:13:34):
Um, yeah.
Everyone says add to cart, but I'm anyone
you identify with the add to cart, you're
also going to
identify through the browse.
And so the only difference there is I can
now talk to them a
little bit differently.
Otherwise like welcome
browse, checkout post purchase.
Yeah.
If like, and we like to split post
purchase between pre-delivery and post
delivery, so what are the expectations
(01:13:54):
that someone has as soon as they order?
Um, and what are the expectations someone
has after they, their product comes in.
So much of LTV is
driven by the product itself.
And if I can help you adopt the product
that I'm selling to you, I think my
likelihood of increasing your LTV goes up
pretty considerably.
And this identity resolution thing, what
does that, what does that mean?
Yeah.
So, um, you have all these different
identity resolution partners out there.
(01:14:15):
You have first and third party ones.
Basically they're saying we help you know
who people are on your
list or on your website.
So the first party ones are ones that
they're already on your list and you
know, cookie expires and
we don't know who they are.
So they're browsing my website.
I see someone browsing, but
I can't say this is Andrew.
If I knew this was Andrew, I could send
(01:14:36):
Andrew an email saying, Hey, Andrew,
you're checking out this
protein powder or whatever it is.
And so first party helps me identify
people who are already on my list.
And then the third party ones are the
retention.com, the
revenue roles, the open
sends, all these different ones that say,
there's someone on your, on your website.
You don't know who they
are, but I know who they are.
And I can tell you who they are.
(01:14:56):
At least that's the theory behind them.
And those love the first party ones.
And then we're kind of mixing the third
party ones because they can
just enter in so many, so many risks,
especially have done incorrectly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, yeah,
that's, that's what I thought.
And I, there was, I remember reading on,
uh, reading about retention.com,
getting into some legal hot water.
You know, I read it
(01:15:16):
on the public internet.
Okay.
This isn't just me conjecturing.
Like I know that
there's issues around that.
So I was curious what you meant by that.
But, um, anyways, sorry, Brian, go ahead.
Is that, uh, what's your overrated
underrated take on third party?
I think a lot of them aren't actually
great at what they say they're great at
of actually identifying people and
matching them to people on your list.
And if they aren't great at that, then
(01:15:37):
they're just like opening up the door
for like so many deliverability issues,
which is like the number one
issue that we see from that.
You see, you know, previously you'd set
up like a welcome series of sorts
for those third party people, which is a
terrible idea actually, because
someone's coming to your website, you
just clone over your welcome series and
you say, Hey, thanks for signing up.
And it's like, they actually
didn't sign up for anything.
No one really
recommends that way anymore.
They kind of bring people into
(01:15:57):
the CRM in a much lighter way.
But even then I'm, I personally don't
like them, but they
also drive performance.
And so it's kind of a balance of what the
client is interested in.
I can, I can tell them
reasons why we don't like it.
And then we can talk about the risks.
And then if they decide they want to take
that risk, then, um, you know, I'm
more than happy to help them out with
that one that I've been, you said
we don't talk about vendors.
No, you can't know letter it.
That's all right.
(01:16:17):
Okay.
Well, we'll just go ask him for a
sponsorship after the fact.
There we go.
One that I have been really gung ho to
test out and I'm, we have a, we're
assigned a client who was
already on a test with them.
And so that should be wrapping up your
next week or so as customers AI.
Their whole thing is that they have been
throwing out reports showing how
they are much better at identifying than
other third party ones.
(01:16:38):
And if, if the identification rate goes
up to a pretty healthy degree, and I
don't carry quite the risk that I do with
other ones, then I become
much more interested in it.
Um, right now it's a, uh, it's very easy
to, to wreck things
if you're not careful.
It's funny that you say that the CI
identification thing, I know
if econ brands are using them because
about 40 seconds after I go on their
(01:16:58):
website, my wife is the one that's opted
in and she's like, why are you on this?
I was like, I'm just poking around.
You know, like I'm just doing some
research and she's like chronically
the one that's opted in.
I'm sure it's IP address related.
Um, and it's, it's hilarious because I
never get them, which is my preference.
Anyways.
So no, it's, uh, it's,
it's funny that you say that.
Cool.
Okay.
Sweet.
Well, we can, we can kind of get back on
the, uh, the overrated, underrated
(01:17:19):
chain, cause I think that there's a,
there's some, there's some fun stuff we
can continue to dig into there.
So I think we've talked a fair about,
about popups and there's probably
even more to dig into, like maybe you
have some suggestions on popups and
we've also talked a bit about flows.
And again, I'm sure there's some more
there, but like, let's deviate
to campaigns for a second.
Sending volume isn't really like an
overrated underrated thing, but I guess
maybe the way to rephrase it is like,
(01:17:40):
when you guys look at the average
account, are they
sending too much or too little?
I would say average is too little.
And I think, uh, you know, previously I,
I would have said most brands are, are
good with eight to 10 emails a month.
And you know that I've been
at home for almost four years.
And since then I've had my eyes open that
you can send far more
emails than I ever realized.
(01:18:02):
We have some clients who send 30 a month.
So basically daily, we have a couple of
clients who send two a day, every
single day, and I think that's pretty far
beyond what I, uh, think is worth it.
And we're working with them to hopefully
reduce that down to just a single
email a day, doing a
nice without tests there.
So anyways, yeah, I think that most
(01:18:23):
brands can probably
send three emails a week.
Um, if you have a larger list, if you
have more to talk about, if you have more
segmentation opportunities, you can
probably go, um, you know, beyond that.
But I'm talking like big buckets of
customers, I'm merely
engagement audiences.
You know, if you have like, you know,
local things happening in LA or something
like that, and you're seeing it's like
5,000 people, I wouldn't, I'm talking
(01:18:44):
about like, like, what am I going to do
with my major sends?
I think three a week is a pretty good
standard for most brands.
And then the bigger
brands can go even higher.
Yeah.
And so like a seven, eight figure brand
probably in the seven figure range.
Three week is probably a good benchmark.
Once you get into the
eight, it's more than that.
So that's further for the people that are
listening in that seven and eight range.
If they wanted to go about increasing the
(01:19:05):
volume of campaigns, I have
two questions related to that.
The first is like, how do they actually
validate that sending more
is actually doing something now?
If they're smaller, sending more revenue
goes up on the website.
It's probably pretty obvious, but I'm
wondering like, okay, how
do you actually validate that?
And two, how did they come up
with ideas for what to send?
Like, are you, do you guys have a list of
here's the campaigns
(01:19:25):
that we want to talk about?
I'm sure if you have more skews, it's
easier, but I guess those, those
kind of two buckets of
validation and then ideation.
So first off, I would just be a
reasonable benchmark of revenue per email
and see like, as I increase my cadence,
does that maintain to a decent degree?
Another thing is that, um, common trap
that people fall into is they
just evaluate the unsubscribe rate.
And so they will say, Oh, my
(01:19:46):
unsubscribe rate's still 0.3%.
It's a healthy level.
And it's almost as if like every single
email, you know, for the most part,
you're going to send to the same
audiences pretty consistently.
And if I'm saying to the exact same
person every single day,
then when they unsubscribe,
it's only, you know, I'm only counting
that unsubscribe as one out of the
hundred thousand people in
the email that I sent to.
But if you look at gross unsubscribes,
(01:20:07):
you see a much different picture where
it's like, Hey, I only had a 0.3%
subscribe rate, but I
lost 2000 subscribers.
And so I would, um,
look at revenue per email.
I'd look at the gross unsubscribe.
So I'm seeing, um, and then I would just
try and make a trade off of like,
understand the trade off is, is an
additional $10,000 in email worth the
2000 people that I lost off my list.
(01:20:27):
Do I, would I rather, you know, one thing
that brands can use to their advantage
is promotional calendar.
And I think anytime you have a
promotional calendar, you
can be more aggressive on
the number of sins that you have.
And so, um, if you have a really
consistent calendar where you're
messaging people, I think that you can be
more aggressive there without, uh,
some of the, the risk
associated with an increased cadence.
(01:20:49):
And so, um, those are the primary things
I'd be paying attention to click rate.
Trending down is obviously another one
too, but revenue per email, unsubscribes
are probably too many
KPIs I pay attention.
You mentioned for a client, you're
running a holdout right now.
Like is a holdout necessary?
It sounds like actually isn't maybe even
necessary in most cases, like it might
be overkill or many people don't even
send enough to know in the first place.
(01:21:10):
Like how you feel about holdouts.
Yeah.
Um, we've not done very many holdouts,
like really at all, because we're only
trying to hold out the campaigns as a
variable and Clavio's own tooling, uh,
is more so focused on the flows.
So it took us a little bit of
brainstorming to figure out
how we can even handle this.
Because a lot of times we're relying on
Clavio's attributed revenue, but if I'm
holding out a group of 20% of people from
(01:21:31):
an audience, of course, I'm not going to
attribute any revenue to them, even
though they might actually be purchasing.
It's just not the money is
just not being shown to Clavio.
And so what we did was we, uh, took their
main segment that they
send to maybe 650,000
people, he put it through a flow where we
attach some properties, group one, group
two, group three, through five.
(01:21:51):
And then we assumed that in a 650,000,
uh, sample size that
we would get a fair roll
the dice and we wouldn't have to worry
about trying to, uh, hold LTV consistent
across the groups.
Thanks Dave, re-cook for that suggestion.
And then what we've done now is that we
took 20% of the people we exported the
data Clavio's exports, allow you to see
(01:22:12):
someone's lifetime value.
And so we're measuring two things.
Does the LTV lift of group one maintain
consistent with groups two through five?
And does the number of subscribers
maintained also stay, like that, do we
see an improvement in
subscribers retained?
So the holdout test
is kind of pain to do.
And I expect that we'll have to run it
for one to two months
at minimum to get any
(01:22:32):
statistically significant data.
Um, so yeah, if someone's not sending
very much, I would say just send more.
You don't need to over complicate it.
If you feel like you're sending too much,
maybe you could do something like this,
but it is mildly complicated setup.
Yeah.
Um, I'll, I'll shut up and let Andrew
jump in a second here.
I feel like Dave is also, maybe when you
send an invoice to
Dave, I feel like we're
just constantly saying Dave's name.
Maybe he's just really good
(01:22:53):
at providing value on Twitter.
And that's why he keeps coming up.
I used to work for Dave and he taught me
how you spreadsheets.
I attribute all my
spreadsheets to Dave or Chad GPT.
All right.
Dave, Dave, Dave's going to send you an
invoice instead then.
So awesome.
Um, cool.
Okay.
So then the second piece of that is,
well, actually, okay.
Before we dive into getting more ideas,
what is the sending volume difference in
(01:23:15):
that specific test that you're running?
I'm just genuinely curious.
103,000 in group one versus whatever.
130,000 times four is
265, 20, 130 versus 520.
Okay.
20%, 20% to 80%.
Gotcha.
And how many, like, what's the difference
in like actual, um, direct, is it volume
of emails?
Like if you're saying you're going from
three to six a week or like, what
does that actually look like?
And it's 14 a week versus seven a week.
(01:23:37):
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Cool.
Okay.
And then my second half of this Andrew,
feel free to stop, but, um,
but just like campaign ideation.
Like if you're going from seven to 14,
like what, what do you talk about?
Yeah.
What are you even going to ask him?
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of the ones that are
sending that frequently offers all the
time for offer, offer new product
release, new product
feature, primarily the
(01:23:59):
content there for the
client that sends a 14 a week.
Luckily we're not in charge
of content ideation for them.
Very likely.
But, uh, yeah.
Uh, I mean, anytime your business has
something to talk about, talk about that,
uh, product features, testimonial
features, story features.
We had a client that's been scaling
really aggressively in the past year.
They're not a client of this anymore,
but, um, they were scaling really
(01:24:19):
aggressively and they
did frequent promotions.
And at one point we checked their data
and six other top 10 performing
campaigns were non-promotional
story-based messaging
that was just talking
about someone's experience with their
product and how it's helped them
with problem solution type thing.
And so I think the first thing I jumped
to it would probably be offers as a way
to drive it, but I also know that not
everyone wants to be so offer heavy.
(01:24:41):
So, you know, leaning into problem
solution, if you have it leading into
testimonials, reviews, product features,
half the battle is
just being in the inbox.
If you're in the inbox and your mind's
one day exists, you know, maybe, maybe
they don't need the product you're trying
to sell them today, but you reminded
them that they do need something else
that you can provide them.
So half the battle is
show up in front of them.
And the other half is like, what, what
(01:25:02):
can my content help push you to?
So somebody goes, how many, you know,
what's the ratio between, um, sending
SMS versus email?
I mean, I feel like you spend send SMS a
lot less, but curious on that.
Yeah, we're much more
conservative with SMS.
I would say two a week is a pretty good
number for nearly every brand.
I have less hard opinions on this, but I
(01:25:23):
think one a week would have, would work
for most brands.
And again, like, you know, we talked
about like the cost
of email being so much
cheaper than meta, obviously like SMS is
cheaper than meta, but SMS is still
really expensive in the cost scale.
Especially if you're not segmenting your
list, we see a lot of unsegmented SMS
lists that are just full list sends.
So, um, you know, if you're a decent rate
(01:25:45):
for our clients, it'd
be like half a penny.
We've seen some clients go down to a
third of a penny, but most people are
probably sitting at like
eight, eight tens of a penny.
And those sound like small differences.
But when you're sending it to an audience
of a hundred, 200, 500,000 people,
and you're sending it multiple times a
week, we're talking, you know, we had a
client that we helped save, I think I
want to say $30,000 every single month
(01:26:07):
by segmenting the list.
And we saw next to no
drop off in revenue.
Yeah.
It's just, they're
just blasting everybody.
Yep.
So another thing I've always been curious
about is a lot of these emails that you
get from brands through Klaviyo or
wherever are heavily
designed one big graphic.
Right.
And then, and then I always feel like the
plain text stuff looks better and
(01:26:28):
actually is what I respond to more.
So two part question.
One is, is like, what, what in terms of
design is innovative and revenue
driving in email on, and then the second
one is like, is there an ability to send
more plain text emails or is there like,
you know, take that wherever you want to.
(01:26:50):
I think plain text stands out because
everyone sends design.
I think if every single person sent plain
text and plain text
wouldn't work as well.
Generally speaking, we see, um, you know,
image driven emails have a lower click
rate, but they have a better conversion
rate of people who do click and the
plain text ones tend to have a much
higher click rate and a
much lower conversion rate.
And so they ended up being like a kind of
like a wash in the end.
(01:27:11):
Uh, I think, you know, back to that
problem solution brand, they weren't
doing this problem solutions through
plain text, but I think anything that you
can attach a story to
plain text will do really well.
And so like, we don't have hard and fast,
like for plain text a month, but they're
great whenever you
need a really quick email.
They're great whenever you need to kind
of explain something.
They're great when you want like a
personal touch to it.
And so yeah, they're fantastic.
(01:27:32):
We love using them.
And again, like I think supplement brands
can really, really lean into this
because they're, those are always, you
know, primarily problem solution brands.
And so, uh, that's a great example of it.
And then from like, like design
perspective, don't overcomplicate it.
Um, you know, we have brands who have, we
see brands who want to throw a
million blocks in there or, you know,
you're just, you're just giving people
a million different
things to pay attention to.
(01:27:54):
And so, you know, I've heard many people
say like the rule of one, like have
one concept for your email.
I think you can go beyond one, but after
a couple of modules, a couple of things
you're trying to get someone to pay
attention to, uh, you're just
deleting the message.
And so I just recommend to keep it pretty
simple conversion focused
as CTAs and heroes, maybe, maybe you have
like some, some product feeds where
you're helping someone discover different
products from you guys.
(01:28:14):
And you're maybe using like
the dynamic data that shows.
Best sellers across your whole entire
plot mix or one of the
personalize to this person.
So there's a lot of, there's a lot that
you can do, but I would just
say, just don't overdo it.
Does this is a, this is a, I'm gonna
expose myself here is, uh, does plain
text read differently by like an inbox
provider, like his Gmail, looking at
that and actually saying this is
(01:28:35):
different than the designed email, like
something with HTML I'm assuming.
Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
Yeah.
So if you, um, if you're using image
slices, which is what 95% of DZ brands
do and what we do as well, I have an
assumption that Google is not reading
the image behind that, you know, things
like AI vision now it's, if it
isn't happening already,
it's going to be, um, very soon.
(01:28:56):
And so before when you used images, the
inbox providers had to
kind of fall back to alt text.
So yes, image emails have far less
readability than a plain text would
both for the inboxes as well as for, um,
people who are, um, vision impaired
or have like accessibility concerns, uh,
you know, all these inbox providers
(01:29:17):
and primarily Google, Google is probably
gonna make up 60% of
your list, maybe 70%.
Um, they don't tell you what they factor
into for deliverability.
And so you're kind of always making some
assumptions that people always talk
about like an image to text ratio.
I think it's like 60, 40 people
recommend, but if you
stuff text into your emails,
they're likely going to
inbox a little better.
(01:29:37):
And that's, um, there, I mean, there are
softwares that are set up around this
that are just injecting texts into your
emails to help you, uh, and box a little
bit.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So you mentioned segmentation in there
and saving people a bunch of money.
Um, we can come to the money thing in a
little bit, but, um,
what's like the 80 20
of segmentation, like what, what, what, I
guess, like, well, how are you
thinking about segmentation?
(01:29:58):
Like, is it we're trying to increase
relevance, which is going to lead to
improved open rates and click rates in
general across both that segment and
then the broader list as a result or
like, um, I'm just curious, like mindset.
And then like, what is like tactical
piece of advice for like how to actually
implement segmentation knowing the vast
majority of your revenue is going to
come from the hyper
recently engaged people.
(01:30:20):
There's a reason why a lot of agencies
and people default to like engage 60
engaged 90 day audiences.
We want to take it beyond that,
especially if the
product kind of demands that
thing of like jeans, I own some modern
boat jeans and I haven't bought
new pairs for four years, but
I plan to buy some more soon.
If you looked at me from a, from a
customer perspective, you said I haven't
bought in four years.
I'm a laps customer.
No, it's just, it's just because you made
(01:30:40):
a great product and I don't need to buy
anymore for awhile.
And so if your product lends to a longer
time usage, then you have to give someone
a reason to purchase, whether that's
offers, new products, they might like,
that's, that's like the primary things,
but, um, uh, it's largely dependent on
your own product.
I think people just try to make it a
cookie cutter approach for everything.
(01:31:01):
So yeah, most of your revenue is going to
come from a small bucket of customers who
are very, very recent, and you should
think about email as a dependent channel.
Email is just pulling people from meta,
from organic social, from SEO, and it's
just a cheaper medium to get them there.
If you had the best flows in place, but
you didn't have the other channels
funneling the mental email in SMS, you
would, they just want to have any impact
(01:31:22):
whatsoever.
So I just want to apologize.
I'm going to ask about attribution, which
is if I start to fight on Twitter,
yeah, which is like, what, what's
something that everybody misses between
Clavio paid and GA, what is, what's the
piece there that you
feel like most brands
are missing out on cause I feel like it's
always a battle to get, to get a full
understanding of that.
(01:31:43):
I think GA is the most conservative look.
And I think Clavio is
the rosiest outlook.
You know, if you're looking at like
Clavio default, the
amazing thing is that Clavio
now has comparative models.
So I can, we've done this for Zach for
all of, for multiple brands.
And they've recently
adjusted their attribution model.
But, um, if I wanted to know, are my, you
know, open rates are really open rate is
(01:32:03):
really so much like a view based
attribution for you guys.
And if you, if you had a one hour view
based attribution and the row is was
solved, which would you trust like a one
hour view based attribution?
I don't trust
attribution, generally speaking.
Okay.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, it's like, it depends on if
it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
Snapchat says meta click based.
I started to get a little bit more
trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot of
(01:32:24):
nuance there too.
So anyways, not to derail.
So my point of view is that, uh, open
rates are open based attribution is
really similar to view based, but if I
take it down from a five day down to one
hour, that's much more trustworthy to me.
If I like to click based only, that's
much more trustworthy to me.
And then I think literally this week, I
think Clavio is rolling
out multi-channel attribution.
Um, I think it just came out like Monday
and they're multi-touch.
(01:32:45):
Um, and so you can like
weight things differently.
I like to maintain the default part of
what's, what's impactful about being
an agency is that we have so many brands
that we can look at.
And if you change the context for how you
attribute revenue for
every single client,
um, you kind of lose some of that, uh,
that network effect.
And so the nice thing is
like, I can compare it though.
I don't have to change the attribution.
I can go and I can say, okay, our default
(01:33:06):
is this, but if I go
in and say, um, a one
day click or a one hour click or seven
day click, whatever I want to do, I can
see what that would actually be.
Um, but while maintaining my baseline
attribution as the default.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I there's, I want to go back to just like
saving money or maybe not even
necessarily saving money, but like just
the money piece of it in general.
Cause I, you know, I think we kind of
started with this, but I've seen several
(01:33:28):
times where like on Twitter, a couple of
times you suggested like, Hey, do these
couple of things and that's going to save
you money on your bill.
Or you're on the opposite side where it's
like, no, you're completely
misunderstanding how your bill works.
So I think it would be really
helpful to leave people with.
And you know, obviously we can dig into
any couple of things or any, anything
else we want to, but like what, when you
first start working with people, like
(01:33:48):
what is the most obvious thing that you
generally do that helps them save their
bill and like, and then this follow up to
that is why are so many people
confused about their billing?
Because most people use Clavio and Clavio
did not make it easy
to understand that first.
Um, I think it's, uh, the opportunity for
immediate cost savings is a little bit
lower now since they've went to active
profile enforcement.
So previously they would say, Hey, we're
(01:34:09):
going to bill you off active profiles,
but it's really only based off the number
of people that I send to an
a single campaign.
So if I had a hundred thousand list, now
I'm paying for a hundred thousand lists,
but I have 200,000 people, if I split
those 200,000 people into two different
segments, I can send to
both those, no problem.
And so that was kind of like the, the
gaming, the manipulation
that, um, people would do now anymore.
It's, it's, it's a little more dangerous
(01:34:30):
to do this at the forefront of a
partnership because you don't understand
their CRM yet, but if I drop in a segment
of people who are just absolutely dead
profiles, you know, they've received 15
emails in the last six months and they
haven't done anything, haven't been on
site, they haven't done any of these
things, you know, like those are probably
people that are pretty safe to clean out.
What I'm really hopeful here's a feature
(01:34:50):
request for Clavio or for other
ESPs is that they
have all the data points.
They have machine learning teams help me
understand who I should be sending to
and who I shouldn't be sending to, which
that kind of creates a disincentive for
them because it's going to trim some of
their costs, but
that's what I want to see.
What do you think about, um, the way
email agencies price, I feel like some,
you know, it's like email agencies
sometimes are charging for a number of
(01:35:11):
emails there that you're
sending, they're charging too much.
When does that get out of hand for you?
Like, what do you think is the most
efficient way to charge and when,
what should people look out for?
We've went through our own
iterations of like how we charge.
And so I think I have a
good perspective on this.
I, we previously used to have a set price
and then you would get a number of emails
and I basically tried to relay it to
(01:35:33):
people that they were basically playing
X dollars per email.
And then I think that that kind of
diminishes the expectation around
the strategy work that gets done.
And so we moved away from that and we
say, Hey, the bulk of what you're
paying us for strategy and the creative
gets tacked onto that.
And if you want to add additional emails
on top of your plan, you can do it for
$250 in email, whatever it is.
(01:35:54):
And so, you know, for a lot of brands,
they're going to send an email and make
10 grand with their very, you know, nice
attribution, but you know, $250 is
usually no brainer for most brands to
say, Hey, I have something I want
to talk about next week.
Let's do it.
I have seen agencies charge as much as a
thousand dollars in email,
which I think is crazy.
I think at that point, I think one of the
(01:36:15):
hardest things about hiring an agency or
hiring a, an email marketer is if you
don't have the skillset, you don't know
how to evaluate for it.
And so maybe you bring in someone who
helps you find the right fit.
You have someone audit you and tell you
how they would run the account.
But if you're paying a thousand dollars
in email, you should probably just
hire in house.
So yeah, I, on the low end, I've seen
(01:36:35):
like people charge really low rates.
Just, you know, as they're freelancing,
getting their foot in the door,
whatever it is.
And I feel like I have since we, since we
haven't, I haven't been in that world
for four years when I put freelance.
And so I have less of a perspective on
that, but on the high end, I've seen
agencies charge like a thousand dollars
in email, which is just crazy.
So we'll just finish off with a section
that we like to call beefs with Z, which
(01:36:56):
is anything, anybody, anything or anyone
you want to get into that it really
bugs you about the work that you're doing
in terms of industry wise, in terms
of tactics that you see that really bug
you things that you would want to get out
in the air.
But if you need a second to think, I'll
start out with Zach.
Well, okay.
Well, I want to say
my, my beef is with Zach.
That's why he's not here.
(01:37:16):
We're just, we're
just, we're really beefy.
The D the text right now are just insane.
They're just, yeah, it's crazy.
So anyways, drives me crazy.
When people force, you know, we're back
on popups for a second.
When people force you to go to your
inbox, to get a
coupon code, some agencies
will do this on accident.
Others will do it maliciously and say,
Oh, we're driving up a tribute revenue.
(01:37:36):
Cause you're forcing an email open, which
I think is really dumb.
You're immediately making them compete
against 50 other brands in their inbox.
If you're sending them a text, you're
making them compete against their spouse,
their friends, their
hobbies, whatever it is.
And so I'm okay accepting a lower
attribute revenue, keeping them on site,
putting the coupon on a pop-up and just
like being like, we've had clients who
I've, who we've said your attribute
(01:37:56):
revenue is going to drop.
The only thing that we're changing is the
word the code is listed.
This is better for you.
So I've got beef with everyone
that does that intentionally.
Yeah.
It's usually, it's like our biggest one,
I would say Brad or degrees, like in the
paid social worlds, people
hold stuff hostage, right?
Like they, they build it in their own ad
account and they're in their own
business manager and then the client like
(01:38:17):
leaves and still there.
It's a mess to unwind all that.
People don't want you to hold it.
So anyway, Jacob,
thank you for being here.
If people have questions,
I can funnel them to you.
You can always reach out to
us, Andrew at foxwelldigital.com.
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me guys.
Thanks.
The only way that we grow this podcast is
(01:38:43):
by you sharing it with your friends.
Honestly, like reviews kind of don't
really mean anything too much anymore.
They're really meaningful, but they don't
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Um, and so sharing YouTube links, sharing
Spotify links, sharing Apple,
whatever we call it under the podcast app
now, anything you can share the
better we're going to be guys, anything
(01:39:04):
else you want to say on this?
Yeah.
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Thank you everyone.
Thanks everybody for listening.
Honestly.
brands just have really bad popups.
You know, the past couple of years,
they're kind of becoming like a cool
thing again, but for so long, I think
they're just ignored and it just
felt like something that was never
cohesive to the site.
And so it just feels like they're
actually being taken seriously.
And there's been a lot
of players into the space.
And so yeah, I'm here for it.
If I'm pulling levers, I get into a
client's email account and like the
first couple of things that I can do is
(01:00:20):
either send more emails, make
the emails look prettier.
I can fix the pop-up or I can go and
start messing with flows.
Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
like, do you have any
examples of like simple changes that you
made to the pop-up or any
changes that you made that led to a
pretty big impact for opt-in rights
and probably revenues or results?
Pop-up is like the lowest lift, highest
impact place that we can touch.
(01:00:41):
It's always a part of our initial plans
for how we help our clients grow.
You know, developing an email takes time,
especially when you're first
meeting a client and getting to know
their voice and everything.
But we can probably nail like 20 words of
coffee on a pop-up pretty quickly.
But like just last week, we had a client
where it was, it was as simple
as just making a pop-up a full screen.
It was a, a white box variant versus a
full screen variant, five and a half
percent to 8.3% same AOV, double orders
(01:01:04):
and double the conversion rate.
All these inbox providers and primarily
Google, Google's probably
going to make up 60%
of your list, maybe 70%.
Um, they don't tell you what they factor
into for deliverability.
And so you're kind of always making some
assumptions that people always
talk about like an image to text ratio.
I think 60, 40 people recommend, but a
few stuff, text into your emails,
they're likely going to
inbox a little better.
(01:01:24):
And that's, um, there, I mean, there's
softwares that are set up around
this, uh, are just injecting text into
your emails to help you, uh,
inbox a little bit.
Yeah.
Would you trust like a one
hour view based attribution?
If it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
Snapchat says meta click based.
I started to get a little bit more
trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot
of nuance there too.
So anyways, not to be real.
And now let's take a listen to the
(01:01:49):
scalability school podcast.
All right.
Welcome to episode nine of the
scalability school podcast.
Brad and I are here with Jacob Sappington
email SMS retention legend.
And he's going to talk to us today about
how these tactics or how we can use
tactics on these channels, uh, to
actually make money today, Jacob.
Welcome to the show.
(01:02:09):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me guys.
It's my first podcast in a while.
So, uh, it's good to be back.
Yeah.
Well, we, uh, we kicked Zach off in
exchange, so we're, we're much
happier for you to be
here than, than him.
Yeah.
Off the Island.
Yeah.
Off the Island.
Yeah.
He had too many Twitter followers.
So where does it now it's called the
losers and the econ
and Brad and I hosted.
Yeah.
Um, the, all right.
(01:02:30):
So, you know, there's a ton of things
that we can get into today.
I think obviously everybody's here to
like, what can we do in
retention and SMS better?
Um, I think there's a lot of it that you,
there's a lot of hype and
there's a lot of ups and downs.
Brad, there's some like stuff that you
wanted to get into right away in
terms of hot or not, essentially.
You want to, you want
to kick it off with that?
Yeah.
I don't, I don't know if we're going to
exactly go one by one through this, but
(01:02:50):
I think it'll, uh, if we hit some like
overrated and underrated discussion
points, I think that can push us into, we
can take them and go deeper.
So I'll give you the floor to decide if
you want to expand on any of these things
or not, but I'll just, I'll just kind of
list some things and you let me know how
you're feeling.
Um, all right, let's go.
All right.
Pop up software, um, or I did underrated.
(01:03:10):
I love Clavier software.
It's including your plan.
So I would say, uh, the right ones are
appropriately rated and there's
a lot that are overrated as well.
Okay.
Cool.
So we don't, you don't have
to mention specific providers.
I know you're a big, you're a big fan of
Clavier for lots of reasons.
That was actually something I wanted to
talk about later is like, I feel like
people are perpetually confused about how
(01:03:31):
Clavier bills and I feel like I see you
on Twitter, I'm explaining it to
everybody all the
time we could save that.
Okay.
So I guess let's, let's do, let's do is a
sub bullet point of popups in general
that like, what are people missing with,
with popups that makes them not as
effective as they otherwise should be.
I think for the most part,
Branches have really bad popups.
I think, you know, the past couple of
(01:03:52):
years through amped and through
Alia and through all these other ones,
like they're kind of becoming like a
cool thing again, but for so long, I
think they were just ignored and it just
felt like something that was never
cohesive to the site.
And so it just feels like they're
actually being taken seriously.
And there's been a lot
of players into the space.
And so, yeah, I'm here for it.
I love it.
I want to see, you know,
more people in our space.
(01:04:13):
Do you think that the software is the
thing that like, is it, is it the
software that drives the impact like a,
like an AMP to Oranalia or is it the
copywriting, is it the offer?
Is it some combination of those things?
I'm sure it's a combination, but like,
how would you wait
maybe each of those things?
We always look for three main tactics.
So we think about the offer.
(01:04:33):
I think I could have a great offer and a
terrible looking pop-up and I could rip
options.
Um, I think we think about the build, how
you functionally put it together matters
a lot.
And then the third lever
that we think about is creative.
So headlines, um, you know, you know,
assets that you use for it, those are
important, but like on mobile, we prefer
things to be very direct, not a lot of
(01:04:54):
creative involved in it.
And so it's, it's on there, but it's,
it's third for a reason.
I think the software
can make a difference.
But what I struggle with with different
software vendors is for the most part,
they have the same tech.
What I really struggle with is that, uh,
you know, how someone defines an
impression or who they're defining as an
impression or as a conversion.
None of us just know.
(01:05:15):
So, um, you know, maybe, you know, back
when AMP first came out, like, uh, I
always had like, we, we still use them
because we would like, uh, fact check,
um, email subscribes in Clavio as a
source of truth to make sure that
everything was, um, uh, as an expected,
like, um, you know, you don't just like
clone a pop-up and
double your opt-in rate.
And so I think that the.
(01:05:37):
Biggest confusing point that's still
confusing for me for a lot of sources is
just how do you actually define that?
Um, and trying to get like an Apple
samples comparison to, to traffic.
That's the biggest challenge.
So if we're talking about, let's keep
going on the pop-up thing.
Do you fire pop-ups on landing pages
versus just the main site or do you
fire them on listicles and
not just shopable landers?
(01:05:57):
Like what's your thoughts on that?
Yep.
Um, a lot of brands push the merger with
their traffic to those LPs.
I want to capture traffic there.
It's one of the main ways that we've, uh,
been able to grow this
growth for, um, some of our clients.
The thing is you just have to make sure
that it's relevant to whatever
content you have on the shop or the LP.
Like one of the worst things you could do
is have a BOGO on your shoppable
(01:06:18):
because you're being really aggressive
with some acquisition offer.
And then your pop-up offers 10% off.
And so you're
immediately adding confusion.
You're immediately adding friction.
Someone thinks can I
combine BOGO on 10% off?
Um, it's just like
really weird messaging there.
So, you know, maybe, maybe listicles are,
uh, something that's even
like less offer incentivized.
Maybe it's, um, something, you know,
like, I get maybe a guide of some
(01:06:40):
sorts or, you know, some, some sort of
content that resonates with what
they're actually pushing on the listicle,
but we want the popups on there.
We don't, you know, there's always this
expectation of some level of bounce
rate increase from adding a pop-up.
But the, the, the thought process that we
have is that the LTV of an email
subscriber is higher than the LTV of a
non-email subscriber.
And so my ability to say in front of them
(01:07:01):
and the cheaper method than
meta, um, is really important.
And so, uh, yeah, we still want them on
those places as well.
What do you expect for like good pop-up
rates, like our collection rate?
We see a lot of
brands come to us like 3%.
Um, we've had some brands
that we've been able to rip 20%.
Um, and I think it really just comes down
to the traffic that they're driving.
(01:07:22):
We've had brands we've
struggled to get to 6% too.
And so a lot of times those are brands
that are like, have like really
heavy organic presences as well.
And so the reason they're coming on site
is not the same reason.
You know, if you're running an ad, um,
and someone's interested in buying
today and you're running an offer driven
pop-up, there's probably a pretty high
likelihood that they're interested.
But if someone's coming to you from SEO,
(01:07:43):
from organic social, the reason
that they're there is not to shop likely.
Um, and so those are the
times like brands like that.
We've had brands who had like really
heavy organic presences and we've just
had to separate that traffic out or show
them different pop-ups relative
to why they're on the site.
That's really interesting.
There's, I would love to have like some
specific examples of pop-up changes.
(01:08:04):
So I would say, I'm curious, like if you,
if you broke things down into, we're very
heavily deviated off of this overrated
under-rated and I'm okay with it.
Cause this is really,
this is really interesting.
Like focusing on, um, pop-ups, I think
it'd be interesting to know like where
pop-ups generally speaking, whether it's
the software or not, um, fit into like,
if I'm pulling levers, I get into a
(01:08:24):
client's email account and like the first
couple of things that I can do is either
send more emails, make the emails look
prettier, I can fix the pop-up or I can
go and start messing with flows.
Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
like, let's, let's say that it is the,
the pop-up and maybe you disagree with
that, but like, do you have any examples
of like massive changes or like simple
(01:08:45):
changes that you made to the pop-up or
any changes that you made that led to a
pretty big impact for opt-in rates and
probably revenue as a result.
Yep.
Yep.
Pop-up is like the lowest lift highest
impact place that we can touch.
It's always a part of our initial plans
for how we help our clients grow.
You know, developing an email takes time,
especially when you're first media
(01:09:06):
client and getting to know their voice
and everything, but we can probably
nail like 20 words of copy
on a pop-up pretty quickly.
And we've had clients who, we've had
clients who came on for paid and not
email, and we've seen the pop-up and
said, that's actually problematic.
You're, you're gonna, um, prevent, you
know, put a roadblock towards paid
social, having an impact as well.
And so we've done free pop-ups for
clients like that before in the past,
(01:09:27):
just to not, you know, make
it harder for our paid team.
But like just last week, we had a client
where it was, it was as simple as just
making a pop-up a full screen.
It was a, a light box variant versus a
full screen variant, five and a half
percent to 8.3%.
Um, double the orders, double the, um,
let me think, same AOV double orders
and double the conversion rate.
(01:09:48):
That's pretty, I mean, it's interesting.
You would say, because I feel like a lot
of people come in and looking at flows
as the first place that they're, I mean,
obviously I think that's where a lot of
people go, um, and where a lot of other
email firms go, but you would say pop-up
is an easier one to
win, win with right away.
Pretty interesting.
Brad, feel free to follow if you have
other pop-up questions, but I'm going to
get into like, I'm just going to talk
(01:10:09):
about flows for a second.
So let's say the average client comes in
there, seven to eight figure brand.
They have some flow set up like, you
know, sort of the
standard win back or whatever
else, right?
Like the things that
everybody tells them to put in there.
Where are you going to look for
optimization in terms of places that
a lot of people aren't looking?
(01:10:29):
Yeah.
Before I jump into that one thing I also
just want to think about for pop-ups
is, uh, pop-ups touch everything.
Pop-ups touch your flows.
They're, they directly
feed into your flows.
Um, if I optimize that content or I
optimize the framework, um, but I
don't have more people
coming in, my upside is limited.
If I go from a five person,
I'll turn to an eight percent.
I'll turn to eight.
(01:10:49):
What's that?
Like 40% maybe something like that.
So I try to do math here.
So we don't, yeah, yeah.
Good.
I could call it.
That's a good idea.
That's a good idea.
But anyway, so like I immediately add
more people to the,
to the flow final pains
are a little bit of, um, a lagging
indicator that it's like, it's, it's
like kind of like retirement.
You know, everyone says that if you start
saving for retirement when you're 18, by
the time you're 65, it just like those
(01:11:10):
last 10 years, just like shoot up your
network, it's the same concept where if I
don't start collecting today and I
don't optimize that for today, then six
months from now, I don't have the same
number of people that I could be talking
to as I, as I could.
So Andrew, the, the last thing you said
there was, um, like how do we triage
like where to put our focus at in flows?
Yeah.
I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like
(01:11:30):
everybody had, everybody listening
to this has exposure to
some sort of email work, right?
And I think pop we've identified popups
as being a place that's, that's an
unutilized place or utilized place.
I'm thinking about, all right, what else
are you looking at that like, aren't the
normal things that people would be
looking at in terms of
optimization around flows?
So I would say, do they have all the
(01:11:50):
flows that we would
expect them to have in place?
Are they using either a first party or a
third party identity resolution software
to increase their number of triggered
events for like flows within the flows.
They do have, do they have enough emails?
A while back, a client asked us or a
prospect assets who we end up signing on
with, um, you know, I only have one
email, my I'm going to
check out how much money
is that costing me.
(01:12:11):
And they wanted us to put
like a dollar figure to it.
And so what I went ahead and did was we
took three of our biggest clients, um,
who were doing probably $10 million a
month, just in this single flow.
And we aggregated the numbers and we
basically found out that 50% of all of
your abandoned checkout revenue comes on
email one and then two through five, or
you know, how many emails you have in
(01:12:32):
there contributes to remaining 50%.
So it's almost like I can get $2, but I'm
choosing to pick up $1.
And so it's like, do
you have the right flows?
Do you have enough
emails within those flows?
Do you have any like technical issues in
place that are, but we frequently find
people have flow filters set up
incorrectly or additional filter set up
incorrectly, which you immediately maybe
trim the number of emails that you're
(01:12:53):
going to send to someone
that's a, that's a common one.
And then maybe the content is just bad.
Maybe they're, they're not focusing on
their offers enough.
Like we've had clients or prospects have
came into our, um, into our funnel and
they have an offer on their pop-up and
then they don't send the offer via
email for 30 minutes or the whole entire
first email doesn't contain the offer.
And so they aren't
getting that for a full day.
(01:13:13):
So I would say like the biggest bucket of
issues are, do you have the right flows?
Do you have enough emails?
Are you layering an SMS in there?
Um, but then there's a lot
of like small technical things
that can break things as well.
So just to be clear, these flows, these
are like abandoned
checkout, welcome flow.
What are the other ones?
Yeah.
What's that?
So like the welcome flow,
the browser abandoned flow.
(01:13:34):
Um, yeah.
Everyone says add to cart, but I'm anyone
you identify with the add to cart, you're
also going to
identify through the browse.
And so the only difference there is I can
now talk to them a
little bit differently.
Otherwise like welcome
browse, checkout post purchase.
Yeah.
If like, and we like to split post
purchase between pre-delivery and post
delivery, so what are the expectations
(01:13:54):
that someone has as soon as they order?
Um, and what are the expectations someone
has after they, their product comes in.
So much of LTV is
driven by the product itself.
And if I can help you adopt the product
that I'm selling to you, I think my
likelihood of increasing your LTV goes up
pretty considerably.
And this identity resolution thing, what
does that, what does that mean?
Yeah.
So, um, you have all these different
identity resolution partners out there.
(01:14:15):
You have first and third party ones.
Basically they're saying we help you know
who people are on your
list or on your website.
So the first party ones are ones that
they're already on your list and you
know, cookie expires and
we don't know who they are.
So they're browsing my website.
I see someone browsing, but
I can't say this is Andrew.
If I knew this was Andrew, I could send
(01:14:36):
Andrew an email saying, Hey, Andrew,
you're checking out this
protein powder or whatever it is.
And so first party helps me identify
people who are already on my list.
And then the third party ones are the
retention.com, the
revenue roles, the open
sends, all these different ones that say,
there's someone on your, on your website.
You don't know who they
are, but I know who they are.
And I can tell you who they are.
(01:14:56):
At least that's the theory behind them.
And those love the first party ones.
And then we're kind of mixing the third
party ones because they can
just enter in so many, so many risks,
especially have done incorrectly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, yeah,
that's, that's what I thought.
And I, there was, I remember reading on,
uh, reading about retention.com,
getting into some legal hot water.
You know, I read it
(01:15:16):
on the public internet.
Okay.
This isn't just me conjecturing.
Like I know that
there's issues around that.
So I was curious what you meant by that.
But, um, anyways, sorry, Brian, go ahead.
Is that, uh, what's your overrated
underrated take on third party?
I think a lot of them aren't actually
great at what they say they're great at
of actually identifying people and
matching them to people on your list.
And if they aren't great at that, then
(01:15:37):
they're just like opening up the door
for like so many deliverability issues,
which is like the number one
issue that we see from that.
You see, you know, previously you'd set
up like a welcome series of sorts
for those third party people, which is a
terrible idea actually, because
someone's coming to your website, you
just clone over your welcome series and
you say, Hey, thanks for signing up.
And it's like, they actually
didn't sign up for anything.
No one really
recommends that way anymore.
They kind of bring people into
(01:15:57):
the CRM in a much lighter way.
But even then I'm, I personally don't
like them, but they
also drive performance.
And so it's kind of a balance of what the
client is interested in.
I can, I can tell them
reasons why we don't like it.
And then we can talk about the risks.
And then if they decide they want to take
that risk, then, um, you know, I'm
more than happy to help them out with
that one that I've been, you said
we don't talk about vendors.
No, you can't know letter it.
That's all right.
(01:16:17):
Okay.
Well, we'll just go ask him for a
sponsorship after the fact.
There we go.
One that I have been really gung ho to
test out and I'm, we have a, we're
assigned a client who was
already on a test with them.
And so that should be wrapping up your
next week or so as customers AI.
Their whole thing is that they have been
throwing out reports showing how
they are much better at identifying than
other third party ones.
(01:16:38):
And if, if the identification rate goes
up to a pretty healthy degree, and I
don't carry quite the risk that I do with
other ones, then I become
much more interested in it.
Um, right now it's a, uh, it's very easy
to, to wreck things
if you're not careful.
It's funny that you say that the CI
identification thing, I know
if econ brands are using them because
about 40 seconds after I go on their
(01:16:58):
website, my wife is the one that's opted
in and she's like, why are you on this?
I was like, I'm just poking around.
You know, like I'm just doing some
research and she's like chronically
the one that's opted in.
I'm sure it's IP address related.
Um, and it's, it's hilarious because I
never get them, which is my preference.
Anyways.
So no, it's, uh, it's,
it's funny that you say that.
Cool.
Okay.
Sweet.
Well, we can, we can kind of get back on
the, uh, the overrated, underrated
(01:17:19):
chain, cause I think that there's a,
there's some, there's some fun stuff we
can continue to dig into there.
So I think we've talked a fair about,
about popups and there's probably
even more to dig into, like maybe you
have some suggestions on popups and
we've also talked a bit about flows.
And again, I'm sure there's some more
there, but like, let's deviate
to campaigns for a second.
Sending volume isn't really like an
overrated underrated thing, but I guess
maybe the way to rephrase it is like,
(01:17:40):
when you guys look at the average
account, are they
sending too much or too little?
I would say average is too little.
And I think, uh, you know, previously I,
I would have said most brands are, are
good with eight to 10 emails a month.
And you know that I've been
at home for almost four years.
And since then I've had my eyes open that
you can send far more
emails than I ever realized.
(01:18:02):
We have some clients who send 30 a month.
So basically daily, we have a couple of
clients who send two a day, every
single day, and I think that's pretty far
beyond what I, uh, think is worth it.
And we're working with them to hopefully
reduce that down to just a single
email a day, doing a
nice without tests there.
So anyways, yeah, I think that most
(01:18:23):
brands can probably
send three emails a week.
Um, if you have a larger list, if you
have more to talk about, if you have more
segmentation opportunities, you can
probably go, um, you know, beyond that.
But I'm talking like big buckets of
customers, I'm merely
engagement audiences.
You know, if you have like, you know,
local things happening in LA or something
like that, and you're seeing it's like
5,000 people, I wouldn't, I'm talking
(01:18:44):
about like, like, what am I going to do
with my major sends?
I think three a week is a pretty good
standard for most brands.
And then the bigger
brands can go even higher.
Yeah.
And so like a seven, eight figure brand
probably in the seven figure range.
Three week is probably a good benchmark.
Once you get into the
eight, it's more than that.
So that's further for the people that are
listening in that seven and eight range.
If they wanted to go about increasing the
(01:19:05):
volume of campaigns, I have
two questions related to that.
The first is like, how do they actually
validate that sending more
is actually doing something now?
If they're smaller, sending more revenue
goes up on the website.
It's probably pretty obvious, but I'm
wondering like, okay, how
do you actually validate that?
And two, how did they come up
with ideas for what to send?
Like, are you, do you guys have a list of
here's the campaigns
(01:19:25):
that we want to talk about?
I'm sure if you have more skews, it's
easier, but I guess those, those
kind of two buckets of
validation and then ideation.
So first off, I would just be a
reasonable benchmark of revenue per email
and see like, as I increase my cadence,
does that maintain to a decent degree?
Another thing is that, um, common trap
that people fall into is they
just evaluate the unsubscribe rate.
And so they will say, Oh, my
(01:19:46):
unsubscribe rate's still 0.3%.
It's a healthy level.
And it's almost as if like every single
email, you know, for the most part,
you're going to send to the same
audiences pretty consistently.
And if I'm saying to the exact same
person every single day,
then when they unsubscribe,
it's only, you know, I'm only counting
that unsubscribe as one out of the
hundred thousand people in
the email that I sent to.
But if you look at gross unsubscribes,
(01:20:07):
you see a much different picture where
it's like, Hey, I only had a 0.3%
subscribe rate, but I
lost 2000 subscribers.
And so I would, um,
look at revenue per email.
I'd look at the gross unsubscribe.
So I'm seeing, um, and then I would just
try and make a trade off of like,
understand the trade off is, is an
additional $10,000 in email worth the
2000 people that I lost off my list.
(01:20:27):
Do I, would I rather, you know, one thing
that brands can use to their advantage
is promotional calendar.
And I think anytime you have a
promotional calendar, you
can be more aggressive on
the number of sins that you have.
And so, um, if you have a really
consistent calendar where you're
messaging people, I think that you can be
more aggressive there without, uh,
some of the, the risk
associated with an increased cadence.
(01:20:49):
And so, um, those are the primary things
I'd be paying attention to click rate.
Trending down is obviously another one
too, but revenue per email, unsubscribes
are probably too many
KPIs I pay attention.
You mentioned for a client, you're
running a holdout right now.
Like is a holdout necessary?
It sounds like actually isn't maybe even
necessary in most cases, like it might
be overkill or many people don't even
send enough to know in the first place.
(01:21:10):
Like how you feel about holdouts.
Yeah.
Um, we've not done very many holdouts,
like really at all, because we're only
trying to hold out the campaigns as a
variable and Clavio's own tooling, uh,
is more so focused on the flows.
So it took us a little bit of
brainstorming to figure out
how we can even handle this.
Because a lot of times we're relying on
Clavio's attributed revenue, but if I'm
holding out a group of 20% of people from
(01:21:31):
an audience, of course, I'm not going to
attribute any revenue to them, even
though they might actually be purchasing.
It's just not the money is
just not being shown to Clavio.
And so what we did was we, uh, took their
main segment that they
send to maybe 650,000
people, he put it through a flow where we
attach some properties, group one, group
two, group three, through five.
(01:21:51):
And then we assumed that in a 650,000,
uh, sample size that
we would get a fair roll
the dice and we wouldn't have to worry
about trying to, uh, hold LTV consistent
across the groups.
Thanks Dave, re-cook for that suggestion.
And then what we've done now is that we
took 20% of the people we exported the
data Clavio's exports, allow you to see
(01:22:12):
someone's lifetime value.
And so we're measuring two things.
Does the LTV lift of group one maintain
consistent with groups two through five?
And does the number of subscribers
maintained also stay, like that, do we
see an improvement in
subscribers retained?
So the holdout test
is kind of pain to do.
And I expect that we'll have to run it
for one to two months
at minimum to get any
(01:22:32):
statistically significant data.
Um, so yeah, if someone's not sending
very much, I would say just send more.
You don't need to over complicate it.
If you feel like you're sending too much,
maybe you could do something like this,
but it is mildly complicated setup.
Yeah.
Um, I'll, I'll shut up and let Andrew
jump in a second here.
I feel like Dave is also, maybe when you
send an invoice to
Dave, I feel like we're
just constantly saying Dave's name.
Maybe he's just really good
(01:22:53):
at providing value on Twitter.
And that's why he keeps coming up.
I used to work for Dave and he taught me
how you spreadsheets.
I attribute all my
spreadsheets to Dave or Chad GPT.
All right.
Dave, Dave, Dave's going to send you an
invoice instead then.
So awesome.
Um, cool.
Okay.
So then the second piece of that is,
well, actually, okay.
Before we dive into getting more ideas,
what is the sending volume difference in
(01:23:15):
that specific test that you're running?
I'm just genuinely curious.
103,000 in group one versus whatever.
130,000 times four is
265, 20, 130 versus 520.
Okay.
20%, 20% to 80%.
Gotcha.
And how many, like, what's the difference
in like actual, um, direct, is it volume
of emails?
Like if you're saying you're going from
three to six a week or like, what
does that actually look like?
And it's 14 a week versus seven a week.
(01:23:37):
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Cool.
Okay.
And then my second half of this Andrew,
feel free to stop, but, um,
but just like campaign ideation.
Like if you're going from seven to 14,
like what, what do you talk about?
Yeah.
What are you even going to ask him?
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of the ones that are
sending that frequently offers all the
time for offer, offer new product
release, new product
feature, primarily the
(01:23:59):
content there for the
client that sends a 14 a week.
Luckily we're not in charge
of content ideation for them.
Very likely.
But, uh, yeah.
Uh, I mean, anytime your business has
something to talk about, talk about that,
uh, product features, testimonial
features, story features.
We had a client that's been scaling
really aggressively in the past year.
They're not a client of this anymore,
but, um, they were scaling really
(01:24:19):
aggressively and they
did frequent promotions.
And at one point we checked their data
and six other top 10 performing
campaigns were non-promotional
story-based messaging
that was just talking
about someone's experience with their
product and how it's helped them
with problem solution type thing.
And so I think the first thing I jumped
to it would probably be offers as a way
to drive it, but I also know that not
everyone wants to be so offer heavy.
(01:24:41):
So, you know, leaning into problem
solution, if you have it leading into
testimonials, reviews, product features,
half the battle is
just being in the inbox.
If you're in the inbox and your mind's
one day exists, you know, maybe, maybe
they don't need the product you're trying
to sell them today, but you reminded
them that they do need something else
that you can provide them.
So half the battle is
show up in front of them.
And the other half is like, what, what
(01:25:02):
can my content help push you to?
So somebody goes, how many, you know,
what's the ratio between, um, sending
SMS versus email?
I mean, I feel like you spend send SMS a
lot less, but curious on that.
Yeah, we're much more
conservative with SMS.
I would say two a week is a pretty good
number for nearly every brand.
I have less hard opinions on this, but I
(01:25:23):
think one a week would have, would work
for most brands.
And again, like, you know, we talked
about like the cost
of email being so much
cheaper than meta, obviously like SMS is
cheaper than meta, but SMS is still
really expensive in the cost scale.
Especially if you're not segmenting your
list, we see a lot of unsegmented SMS
lists that are just full list sends.
So, um, you know, if you're a decent rate
(01:25:45):
for our clients, it'd
be like half a penny.
We've seen some clients go down to a
third of a penny, but most people are
probably sitting at like
eight, eight tens of a penny.
And those sound like small differences.
But when you're sending it to an audience
of a hundred, 200, 500,000 people,
and you're sending it multiple times a
week, we're talking, you know, we had a
client that we helped save, I think I
want to say $30,000 every single month
(01:26:07):
by segmenting the list.
And we saw next to no
drop off in revenue.
Yeah.
It's just, they're
just blasting everybody.
Yep.
So another thing I've always been curious
about is a lot of these emails that you
get from brands through Klaviyo or
wherever are heavily
designed one big graphic.
Right.
And then, and then I always feel like the
plain text stuff looks better and
(01:26:28):
actually is what I respond to more.
So two part question.
One is, is like, what, what in terms of
design is innovative and revenue
driving in email on, and then the second
one is like, is there an ability to send
more plain text emails or is there like,
you know, take that wherever you want to.
(01:26:50):
I think plain text stands out because
everyone sends design.
I think if every single person sent plain
text and plain text
wouldn't work as well.
Generally speaking, we see, um, you know,
image driven emails have a lower click
rate, but they have a better conversion
rate of people who do click and the
plain text ones tend to have a much
higher click rate and a
much lower conversion rate.
And so they ended up being like a kind of
like a wash in the end.
(01:27:11):
Uh, I think, you know, back to that
problem solution brand, they weren't
doing this problem solutions through
plain text, but I think anything that you
can attach a story to
plain text will do really well.
And so like, we don't have hard and fast,
like for plain text a month, but they're
great whenever you
need a really quick email.
They're great whenever you need to kind
of explain something.
They're great when you want like a
personal touch to it.
And so yeah, they're fantastic.
(01:27:32):
We love using them.
And again, like I think supplement brands
can really, really lean into this
because they're, those are always, you
know, primarily problem solution brands.
And so, uh, that's a great example of it.
And then from like, like design
perspective, don't overcomplicate it.
Um, you know, we have brands who have, we
see brands who want to throw a
million blocks in there or, you know,
you're just, you're just giving people
a million different
things to pay attention to.
(01:27:54):
And so, you know, I've heard many people
say like the rule of one, like have
one concept for your email.
I think you can go beyond one, but after
a couple of modules, a couple of things
you're trying to get someone to pay
attention to, uh, you're just
deleting the message.
And so I just recommend to keep it pretty
simple conversion focused
as CTAs and heroes, maybe, maybe you have
like some, some product feeds where
you're helping someone discover different
products from you guys.
(01:28:14):
And you're maybe using like
the dynamic data that shows.
Best sellers across your whole entire
plot mix or one of the
personalize to this person.
So there's a lot of, there's a lot that
you can do, but I would just
say, just don't overdo it.
Does this is a, this is a, I'm gonna
expose myself here is, uh, does plain
text read differently by like an inbox
provider, like his Gmail, looking at
that and actually saying this is
(01:28:35):
different than the designed email, like
something with HTML I'm assuming.
Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
Yeah.
So if you, um, if you're using image
slices, which is what 95% of DZ brands
do and what we do as well, I have an
assumption that Google is not reading
the image behind that, you know, things
like AI vision now it's, if it
isn't happening already,
it's going to be, um, very soon.
(01:28:56):
And so before when you used images, the
inbox providers had to
kind of fall back to alt text.
So yes, image emails have far less
readability than a plain text would
both for the inboxes as well as for, um,
people who are, um, vision impaired
or have like accessibility concerns, uh,
you know, all these inbox providers
(01:29:17):
and primarily Google, Google is probably
gonna make up 60% of
your list, maybe 70%.
Um, they don't tell you what they factor
into for deliverability.
And so you're kind of always making some
assumptions that people always talk
about like an image to text ratio.
I think it's like 60, 40 people
recommend, but if you
stuff text into your emails,
they're likely going to
inbox a little better.
(01:29:37):
And that's, um, there, I mean, there are
softwares that are set up around this
that are just injecting texts into your
emails to help you, uh, and box a little
bit.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So you mentioned segmentation in there
and saving people a bunch of money.
Um, we can come to the money thing in a
little bit, but, um,
what's like the 80 20
of segmentation, like what, what, what, I
guess, like, well, how are you
thinking about segmentation?
(01:29:58):
Like, is it we're trying to increase
relevance, which is going to lead to
improved open rates and click rates in
general across both that segment and
then the broader list as a result or
like, um, I'm just curious, like mindset.
And then like, what is like tactical
piece of advice for like how to actually
implement segmentation knowing the vast
majority of your revenue is going to
come from the hyper
recently engaged people.
(01:30:20):
There's a reason why a lot of agencies
and people default to like engage 60
engaged 90 day audiences.
We want to take it beyond that,
especially if the
product kind of demands that
thing of like jeans, I own some modern
boat jeans and I haven't bought
new pairs for four years, but
I plan to buy some more soon.
If you looked at me from a, from a
customer perspective, you said I haven't
bought in four years.
I'm a laps customer.
No, it's just, it's just because you made
(01:30:40):
a great product and I don't need to buy
anymore for awhile.
And so if your product lends to a longer
time usage, then you have to give someone
a reason to purchase, whether that's
offers, new products, they might like,
that's, that's like the primary things,
but, um, uh, it's largely dependent on
your own product.
I think people just try to make it a
cookie cutter approach for everything.
(01:31:01):
So yeah, most of your revenue is going to
come from a small bucket of customers who
are very, very recent, and you should
think about email as a dependent channel.
Email is just pulling people from meta,
from organic social, from SEO, and it's
just a cheaper medium to get them there.
If you had the best flows in place, but
you didn't have the other channels
funneling the mental email in SMS, you
would, they just want to have any impact
(01:31:22):
whatsoever.
So I just want to apologize.
I'm going to ask about attribution, which
is if I start to fight on Twitter,
yeah, which is like, what, what's
something that everybody misses between
Clavio paid and GA, what is, what's the
piece there that you
feel like most brands
are missing out on cause I feel like it's
always a battle to get, to get a full
understanding of that.
(01:31:43):
I think GA is the most conservative look.
And I think Clavio is
the rosiest outlook.
You know, if you're looking at like
Clavio default, the
amazing thing is that Clavio
now has comparative models.
So I can, we've done this for Zach for
all of, for multiple brands.
And they've recently
adjusted their attribution model.
But, um, if I wanted to know, are my, you
know, open rates are really open rate is
(01:32:03):
really so much like a view based
attribution for you guys.
And if you, if you had a one hour view
based attribution and the row is was
solved, which would you trust like a one
hour view based attribution?
I don't trust
attribution, generally speaking.
Okay.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
You know, it's like, it depends on if
it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
Snapchat says meta click based.
I started to get a little bit more
trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot of
(01:32:24):
nuance there too.
So anyways, not to derail.
So my point of view is that, uh, open
rates are open based attribution is
really similar to view based, but if I
take it down from a five day down to one
hour, that's much more trustworthy to me.
If I like to click based only, that's
much more trustworthy to me.
And then I think literally this week, I
think Clavio is rolling
out multi-channel attribution.
Um, I think it just came out like Monday
and they're multi-touch.
(01:32:45):
Um, and so you can like
weight things differently.
I like to maintain the default part of
what's, what's impactful about being
an agency is that we have so many brands
that we can look at.
And if you change the context for how you
attribute revenue for
every single client,
um, you kind of lose some of that, uh,
that network effect.
And so the nice thing is
like, I can compare it though.
I don't have to change the attribution.
I can go and I can say, okay, our default
(01:33:06):
is this, but if I go
in and say, um, a one
day click or a one hour click or seven
day click, whatever I want to do, I can
see what that would actually be.
Um, but while maintaining my baseline
attribution as the default.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I there's, I want to go back to just like
saving money or maybe not even
necessarily saving money, but like just
the money piece of it in general.
Cause I, you know, I think we kind of
started with this, but I've seen several
(01:33:28):
times where like on Twitter, a couple of
times you suggested like, Hey, do these
couple of things and that's going to save
you money on your bill.
Or you're on the opposite side where it's
like, no, you're completely
misunderstanding how your bill works.
So I think it would be really
helpful to leave people with.
And you know, obviously we can dig into
any couple of things or any, anything
else we want to, but like what, when you
first start working with people, like
(01:33:48):
what is the most obvious thing that you
generally do that helps them save their
bill and like, and then this follow up to
that is why are so many people
confused about their billing?
Because most people use Clavio and Clavio
did not make it easy
to understand that first.
Um, I think it's, uh, the opportunity for
immediate cost savings is a little bit
lower now since they've went to active
profile enforcement.
So previously they would say, Hey, we're
(01:34:09):
going to bill you off active profiles,
but it's really only based off the number
of people that I send to an
a single campaign.
So if I had a hundred thousand list, now
I'm paying for a hundred thousand lists,
but I have 200,000 people, if I split
those 200,000 people into two different
segments, I can send to
both those, no problem.
And so that was kind of like the, the
gaming, the manipulation
that, um, people would do now anymore.
It's, it's, it's a little more dangerous
(01:34:30):
to do this at the forefront of a
partnership because you don't understand
their CRM yet, but if I drop in a segment
of people who are just absolutely dead
profiles, you know, they've received 15
emails in the last six months and they
haven't done anything, haven't been on
site, they haven't done any of these
things, you know, like those are probably
people that are pretty safe to clean out.
What I'm really hopeful here's a feature
(01:34:50):
request for Clavio or for other
ESPs is that they
have all the data points.
They have machine learning teams help me
understand who I should be sending to
and who I shouldn't be sending to, which
that kind of creates a disincentive for
them because it's going to trim some of
their costs, but
that's what I want to see.
What do you think about, um, the way
email agencies price, I feel like some,
you know, it's like email agencies
sometimes are charging for a number of
(01:35:11):
emails there that you're
sending, they're charging too much.
When does that get out of hand for you?
Like, what do you think is the most
efficient way to charge and when,
what should people look out for?
We've went through our own
iterations of like how we charge.
And so I think I have a
good perspective on this.
I, we previously used to have a set price
and then you would get a number of emails
and I basically tried to relay it to
(01:35:33):
people that they were basically playing
X dollars per email.
And then I think that that kind of
diminishes the expectation around
the strategy work that gets done.
And so we moved away from that and we
say, Hey, the bulk of what you're
paying us for strategy and the creative
gets tacked onto that.
And if you want to add additional emails
on top of your plan, you can do it for
$250 in email, whatever it is.
(01:35:54):
And so, you know, for a lot of brands,
they're going to send an email and make
10 grand with their very, you know, nice
attribution, but you know, $250 is
usually no brainer for most brands to
say, Hey, I have something I want
to talk about next week.
Let's do it.
I have seen agencies charge as much as a
thousand dollars in email,
which I think is crazy.
I think at that point, I think one of the
(01:36:15):
hardest things about hiring an agency or
hiring a, an email marketer is if you
don't have the skillset, you don't know
how to evaluate for it.
And so maybe you bring in someone who
helps you find the right fit.
You have someone audit you and tell you
how they would run the account.
But if you're paying a thousand dollars
in email, you should probably just
hire in house.
So yeah, I, on the low end, I've seen
(01:36:35):
like people charge really low rates.
Just, you know, as they're freelancing,
getting their foot in the door,
whatever it is.
And I feel like I have since we, since we
haven't, I haven't been in that world
for four years when I put freelance.
And so I have less of a perspective on
that, but on the high end, I've seen
agencies charge like a thousand dollars
in email, which is just crazy.
So we'll just finish off with a section
that we like to call beefs with Z, which
(01:36:56):
is anything, anybody, anything or anyone
you want to get into that it really
bugs you about the work that you're doing
in terms of industry wise, in terms
of tactics that you see that really bug
you things that you would want to get out
in the air.
But if you need a second to think, I'll
start out with Zach.
Well, okay.
Well, I want to say
my, my beef is with Zach.
That's why he's not here.
(01:37:16):
We're just, we're
just, we're really beefy.
The D the text right now are just insane.
They're just, yeah, it's crazy.
So anyways, drives me crazy.
When people force, you know, we're back
on popups for a second.
When people force you to go to your
inbox, to get a
coupon code, some agencies
will do this on accident.
Others will do it maliciously and say,
Oh, we're driving up a tribute revenue.
(01:37:36):
Cause you're forcing an email open, which
I think is really dumb.
You're immediately making them compete
against 50 other brands in their inbox.
If you're sending them a text, you're
making them compete against their spouse,
their friends, their
hobbies, whatever it is.
And so I'm okay accepting a lower
attribute revenue, keeping them on site,
putting the coupon on a pop-up and just
like being like, we've had clients who
I've, who we've said your attribute
(01:37:56):
revenue is going to drop.
The only thing that we're changing is the
word the code is listed.
This is better for you.
So I've got beef with everyone
that does that intentionally.
Yeah.
It's usually, it's like our biggest one,
I would say Brad or degrees, like in the
paid social worlds, people
hold stuff hostage, right?
Like they, they build it in their own ad
account and they're in their own
business manager and then the client like
(01:38:17):
leaves and still there.
It's a mess to unwind all that.
People don't want you to hold it.
So anyway, Jacob,
thank you for being here.
If people have questions,
I can funnel them to you.
You can always reach out to
us, Andrew at foxwelldigital.com.
Thanks for being on the podcast.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me guys.
Thanks.
The only way that we grow this podcast is
(01:38:43):
by you sharing it with your friends.
Honestly, like reviews kind of don't
really mean anything too much anymore.
They're really meaningful, but they don't
do a lot for the growth of the podcast.
Um, and so sharing YouTube links, sharing
Spotify links, sharing Apple,
whatever we call it under the podcast app
now, anything you can share the
better we're going to be guys, anything
(01:39:04):
else you want to say on this?
Yeah.
Please go check us out on YouTube, rack
up those views for us.
We'd love to see it.
And then subscribe.
Make sure to
subscribe on YouTube as well.
And I relentlessly refresh
the YouTube comments because it
dictates my mental health for the day.
So please say
something nice about all of us.
Thank you everyone.
Thanks everybody for listening.
Honestly.
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