From Audio to Viral: The YouTube Transformation of a Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Way back on episode 979, Iasked the question, hey, should your
podcast be on YouTube?
And we kind of looked at thepros and cons and my Buddy Thomas
Umstad Jr.
From Novel Marketing sent mean email with all sorts of stats
and graphs and I was like,that is pretty cool.
So we have a boots on theground report on what works.

(00:23):
If you are like, you know what?
I am gonna start things on YouTube.
Thomas is going to share somethings that are going to get you
going in the right directionmuch faster and he's going to explain
the mindset that you have toget in as well as save you some money
on equipment if you're goingto be adding video.
Now, if you have no inkling ofever wanting to be on YouTube, you're

(00:46):
dismissed from this episodebecause it's all about helping those
that are on the fence decide.
And some of you may decideafter hearing this, I'm not doing
that.
And others may, okay, good.
I'm going to cut some cornersand I know how I'm going to do it.
So that's what we're talking about.
If YouTube is not for you atall, then we'll see you next week.

(01:06):
Or go out toschoolofpodcasting.com follow follow
the show and cherry pick somegreat episodes.
Hit it, ladies.
The School of Podcasting withDave Jackson.
Podcasting since 2005, I'myour award winning hall of fame podcast
coach, Dave Jackson.

(01:27):
Thanking so much for tuning in.
If you're new to the show,this is where I help you plan, launch
and grow your podcast.
My website,schoolofpodcasting.com use the coupon
code listnr when you sign upfor either a monthly quarterly that's
new by the way, or yearlysubscription out@schoolofpodcasting.com

(01:49):
and as I mentioned, I'm super excited.
Like I was jazzed all dayknowing I was going to Interview
Thomas Umstadt Jr.
Again.
Novel marketing.com if youlike, if you even smell a book, if
you're thinking about doinganything with a book as an author,
this is the guy.

(02:10):
Like, that is the guy you wantto talk to.
I'm here to tell you, soknowledgeable, he's like a walking
encyclopedia when it comes to books.
And as I mentioned at theBeginning, he started YouTube with
his podcast, right?
He'd been doing his podcastfor a while and decided to add YouTube
to the mix.
And now he's come back to helpus all understand what's working

(02:32):
and what's not.
Here's my conversation withThomas Umstadt Jr.
From novelmarketing.com.
thank you so much for comingon the show.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I love the school ofpodcasting and I love this chance
to come back.
Let's start off.
How long have you been doingyour podcast?
I started my first podcast in2007, which is impressive to some

(02:56):
people, but I know not to you.
But the current podcast, novelmarketing, we started back in 2013
as an audio only podcast.
When did you start integratingother aspects of things like that?
Yeah, so about five years ago.
Five or six years ago, therewas a lot of buzz about YouTube and

(03:18):
you could take your podcastand put it on YouTube via these various
automated tools.
And so we experimented with that.
There was some service, it'snot around anymore, that would do
it automatically.
It would subscribe to your RSSfeed, it would take the MP3, it would
put your cover art in a littlewaveform and make the video file.

(03:39):
And I was like, oh, this is areally easy way to have a YouTube
show.
And we did that for like a year.
And it got very littletraction because people don't want
to listen to YouTube.
The experience of listening isso much better in a podcast app than
it is on the YouTube app,unless somebody's YouTube Premium.
And that wasn't very popularfive years ago.

(04:02):
But it had a squiggly line.
Yeah, no, the squiggly line iscool, but it doesn't hold your attention
for 30 minutes.
No, in fact, it's almost worsethan nothing because if there's nothing,
it kind of gives me permissionto wash the dishes or go for a walk.
But there's this concept.

(04:23):
I used to do radio for alittle bit, and there's this concept
in radio between foregroundand background listening.
So a lot of podcasts, a lot ofthe two guys talking about podcasts
are background listening.
You're like, how is it thatthis show that's four hours long
and three days a week has somany listeners?
And it's like, well, becausepeople are filling these quiet portions

(04:46):
of their day with thesefriendly voices.
Somebody who works on carsmight be working.
In fact, our family carmechanic, when I was a kid, he would
listen to Rush Limbaugh everymorning and at 11 o' clock, and he
would listen to the end ofRush Limbaugh when the next guy came
on.
And this guy was on it.
Like you thought he was ahumble car mechanic, but he could

(05:06):
tell you blow by blow what wasgoing on in Washington, D.C.
between the Democrats and Republicans.
So he listened to talk radioall day long.
And that experience of the guyon radio is still happening today.
So that experience that he hadlistening to talk radio is the same
sort of experience for somepeople listening to podcasts, but

(05:28):
other podcasts and a lot ofYouTube is foreground listening.
It's lean forward listening,where you're really paying close
attention, you're not reallydoing something else.
And so the formats are really different.
And in radio, we're constantlytrying to hold people back from being
foreground to.
From being background to being foreground.
Right?
All these little jingles andattention grabbers to get people

(05:48):
to start paying attentionagain so that they'll listen to our
advertisers.
And so that same sort of thingis happening in terms of the difference
between YouTube and.
And podcasting.
And it's a lot easier for apodcast to work on YouTube when there's
faces.
And that's what we startedexperimenting with about a year ago,
because we were alreadyrecording in tools like this one

(06:11):
that we're using with Descriptor Riverside or Squadcast or streamyard.
There's a lot of really goodones, or zoom, if you're desperate.
I don't like zoom.
Quality is kind of low unlessyou're really good at setting the
settings.
Listen to Dave Jackson'sadvice on how to set your zoom settings
if you're gonna do zoo.
But we were recording thevideo and I was using descript to

(06:33):
edit the episodes.
And so I'm like, we might aswell put these videos on YouTube.
And so it was still really loweffort, but just that slight change
going from the audiogram tothe faces made a huge difference.
And we started seeing 2x3x,the number of views per video.
Still small numbers, but itwas a lot more than what we were

(06:53):
getting with just the audiogram.
And it started growing from there.
And so are you adding likelower thirds or anything?
Or is this just a singlecamera shot of you talking into a
camera?
So at first it was just sideby side.
Descript, really low effort.
I was still doing the audioedit, but I was only editing with

(07:17):
audio in mind.
And then about six months ago,we started experimenting with kind
of doing this on purpose.
I brought on a video editor tostart adding some B roll and to help
with the transitions.
And descript's got some reallycool features where it can do automatic
multicam with its underlord feature.
And so it can go full screento full screen.

(07:38):
But if you want to, like,switch in side by side and hide edits
with a scene change, that'sstill kind of manual.
And that's the sort of thing,if you're editing for audio, you
don't worry about.
So for an audio edit, youoften cut really close to the bone.
At least that's how ourapproach was.
We'd cut out every um we couldget to because you can cut those

(07:59):
ums out and it will soundreally natural, but it doesn't look
natural.
People's faces are jumping allover depending on how many filler
words they have.
And now we're actually editingslightly differently.
We kind of fork the content earlier.
And so I have one person whodoes the audio and a different person
who's doing the video.

(08:20):
But what really made thedifference in what basically 10x'd
our views on YouTube wasrealizing that some things that matter
a lot for YouTube don't matter@ all.
For podcasting, it was thatdiscovery of like, oh, these things
that aren't very important areactually everything on YouTube.
And the two biggest ones aretitles and thumbnails.

(08:43):
A lot of podcasts just haveepisode 1, 2, 3, episode 1, 2, 4.
You don't recommend that.
It's not a best practice.
But it doesn't really matter.
Like, if somebody's committedto the school of podcasting, they're
committed to Dave Jackson.
They're gonna listen to thenext episode because they're subscribed.
But on YouTube, you have toearn every view.

(09:03):
Cause subscribers don't matter.
Yeah, that I have found.
Cause I.
I don't know, I'm over 3,000.
Which is weird.
Cause you feel like.
It feels like a ton whenyou're used to talking downloads
and then you see otherpeople's channels and you're like,
oh, I'm just a.
I'm just a little itty bitty thing.
And then when you put out anepisode and you've got thousands

(09:25):
of subscribers, and after thefirst day, you're like, wow, I had
78 views.
You're like, wow, that's depressing.
So, yeah, definitely don't.
Don't get too enamored whenyou see, wow, somebody has 10,000
subscribers.
It's like, yeah, let's go lookat the view count.
Yeah.
There's a trend on all ofsocial media right now called death

(09:47):
of the Subscriber.
And it was really spearheadedby TikTok, where the TikTok algorithm
doesn't really look atsubscribers as a big part of the
algorithm.
It looks at many, many factorsand subscribers as a tiny piece of
it.
YouTube puts a little bit morestock in subscribers than TikTok
does.
But none of them put any kindof weight on subscribers the way

(10:08):
Apple Podcast does or Spotifyor Overcast.
I mean, some of those podcastapps, they give you a little red
number to make you stressed out.
It's like a to do list item.
To listen to this podcast,it's a lot of pressure to keep up
with your subscribed episodes,where there's not that pressure on
YouTube.
And the other thing that'seven more important than the title,

(10:29):
and this is what we werecompletely abandoning because it
doesn't matter in podcastingat all, is the thumbnail.
So I don't know if you createcustom thumbnails for your audio
episodes.
Some more advanced podcasts dodo that, and it's kind of a nice
to have feature, right?
Buzzsprout's got a littleplace to upload.
You have your special episode,but, like, some of the players don't
even display it.

(10:49):
And it's a complicated.
You know, there's half a dozendifferent standards, like, are you
gonna do it the Spotify way,or the Apple way, or the podcasting
2.0 way for the individualepisode artwork?
And nobody's really using thatart to make their decision about
whether to listen to anepisode or not, but they are on YouTube.
So the YouTube experience,you've got this wall of episodes

(11:11):
that you're scrolling past onyour phone or on your.
And you're primarily seeingthe thumbnails for those episodes.
And it was when we startedactually custom designing thumbnail
images and putting text on thethumbnails because we were taking
previously our blog post images.
So we take the transcript fromevery episode and we turn it into
a blog post because we have abig chunk of our audience that just

(11:33):
reads the blog versions of the episodes.
And so we would have a blogimage, like a stock photo, and we
were just using that as athumbnail, and that was garbage.
It did not work.
But once we started actuallymaking thumbnails, following actual
best practices and learningwhat those best practices are, which
is text, faces, arrows, thingslike that, it started making a huge

(11:57):
difference in terms of our downloads.
In fact, the first few videosI did with text, we were getting
like a few hundred views.
The next ones got thousands of views.
It was just like a massivejump overnight.
And that was what I was realizing.
I was like, okay, some of thethings, this is a different platform.
It needs to be respected differently.

(12:18):
And the rules are different,and titles and thumbnails are everything.
Now do I always have to makesome sort of goofy face?
Because it always seems likeeveryone's either surprised or super
sad.
It's very extreme in thefacial expressions.
That seems to be somethingthat just everybody's doing.
It helps.
Big eyes help.

(12:39):
So strong emotions really matter.
Another big difference that welearned, and this was where I had
to start changing the show,was the opening really matters.
So when somebody taps a video,they're not committed to listening
to the whole thing.
Which, again, is verydifferent from podcasting.
Once somebody starts listeningto a podcast episode, they're committed.

(13:02):
In fact, for me listening topodcasts, I have playlists in overcast.
And so when I go to my newsplaylist in the morning and I start
listening to the firstepisode, I'm often not just committed
to that first episode, but allof the news.
Because I have a lot of shortnews shows that I listen to.
Bang, bang, bang, right aftereach other, and I listen to them
straight through.
That's not how YouTube is.

(13:22):
So people listen to the first30 seconds of YouTube very much on
an experimental basis.
And I don't think YouTube evencounts the view until they stuck
around for 30 seconds.
I forget exactly where thethreshold is, but I think they have
to be watching for at least 30seconds for the view to count.
And so a lot of podcasts openreally slow.
You know, I have some podcastsI listen to where I just skip the

(13:43):
first five minutes andovercast automatically because they
never say anything interestingin the first five minutes.
Not your show, by the way.
You do a good job opening strong.
But even like best practicesin podcast world, you're not providing
value in the first 30 seconds.
And I wasn't.
I would often open with this,like two or three minute intro story
that kind of provided contextand got people interested in the

(14:05):
topic, which worked reallywell for a podcast.
Did not work well on YouTube.
I was listening to a Mr.
Beast interview.
He's the number one YouTuberright now.
And he was talking about howyou have to start delivering on the
promise that you make withyour thumbnail within the first 30
seconds.
And I was like, whoa.

(14:27):
Delivering on the promise.
So he'll have a video wherethere's like, I did seven dangerous
things and it's like, andwe're going to do the first dangerous
thing right now.
And you're like, you're 10seconds into the video and he's in
the water and there's sharksswimming around him.
And within 30 seconds hesurvived the shark attack.
Right.
Like, the need to Open Strongon YouTube is so high.

(14:50):
And it's just really was a bigadjustment for me coming from Podcast
world.
And another technique is youcan add the show intro, but you add
it in later on in the episode.
So you're kind of front loading.
In podcasting world, it's allabout getting the subscriber.
It's all about gettingsomebody committed to the show.
And so you introduce them tothe show.

(15:11):
Overall, it's like, hey, thisis the school of podcasting.
And we talk about all things podcasting.
And today we're going to betalking about adapting your podcast
for YouTube.
And so you kind of sell thebig show and then you sell the individual
topic on YouTube.
It's inverted.
You sell them on the individual.
So today we're talking aboutadapting your podcast for YouTube.
And then later on you're like,and this is the school of podcasting.

(15:33):
It's everything podcasting.
And it seems like a reallyminor change, but again, you're having
to sell that individual episode.
And somebody might listen toone episode and then the algorithm
feeds them another episode afew weeks later, and they might have
listened to three, four orfive of your episodes before they
ever click subscribe or likeor ring the bell for notifications,
which all of you should do onDave's channel, by the way.

(15:57):
Well, so you gave us some tipson thumbnails.
How do you come up with good titles?
So we use AI for this.
We've been experimenting withdifferent AIs for brainstorming.
Often what we'll do is we'llhave GROK or GPT or Anthropics Claude
generate dozens and dozens of titles.

(16:19):
So we'll feed it the goal ofthe episode, the topic of the episode.
If I have an outline,sometimes I'll feed it the outline
of the episode.
And the goal is to get justlots and lots of ideas, not that
we're going to use any of theones that AI gives us.
Sometimes it'll give us a goodone, but it's more of getting it
to get us out of the rut.
Because my initial episodeidea is always garbage, it will often

(16:42):
just be the topic and it's no good.
And I'm starting to learnsometimes I can't do the episode
until I have a good title for it.
So there's an episode I'vebeen wanting to do for about a year
called and my internal titlefor this episode is Statistics for
Authors, where I explain thePareto distribution, the 80:20 principle,

(17:05):
and the standard distributionand why you don't understand this.
You're going to lose money asan author, and that will not work
on YouTube.
Statistics for authors isMaybe the worst possible episode
title.
There's some people, there'sthe loyal listeners who watch every
episode.
They'll hang with me throughmy intro about why it's so important.
But I finally have come upwith a better framing device for

(17:29):
this topic that'll get peopleangry, that will then cause them
to listen to a whole episodeabout statistics.
So it's not that I have tochange the content necessarily.
I have to change how it'spresented up front.
And I've got to add thatsizzle because one of the things
I've learned, anything withcontroversy, anything with politics

(17:50):
does really well.
Like, the episodes I was surewere gonna get me canceled would
get thousands and thousands ofmore views.
Not a little bit more views,but like, way more views.
And not even just political interms of Democrats and Republicans,
but like political, whereyou're taking any kind of controversial
stance, you're challenging theprevailing wisdom.
One of my most popularepisodes of all time is about why

(18:14):
authors shouldn't write booksin a series, which everybody gives
the opposite advice.
And that episode actually hasa really good intro.
It's like, you shouldn't writeyour book in a series.
And I can prove it using math.
It's like the first 10seconds, and I jump straight into
the math.
So we're like going throughmathematical formulas.
And by the end of the first 30seconds, I've made my first argument

(18:36):
in what's probably seven oreight arguments for this point.
Interesting.
It's just a completelydifferent platform.
You know what I mean?
Different platform, different rules.
So everything we've beentalking about is about me adapting
novel marketing for theYouTube channel.
Just in the last couple ofmonths, we've launched a new show
called Author Update, where werecord it live on YouTube.

(18:59):
And often this live showthat's unedited, just like what you're
describing beats the evergreenepisode from novel marketing.
In fact, right now, our topfive most viewed videos for the last
month, I think four of themare Author Update episodes.
And this is a totallydifferent kind of show.

(19:21):
So novel marketing, the goalis for very evergreen episodes.
People go back and re listento episodes from years before that.
Teach some prison right, thatyou've been.
Doing for 12 years.
I'll occasionally go andrerecord and revisit a topic and
update it, but people go backand binge like they do with your
show.
And the downside of that isthat because the goal is evergreen,

(19:42):
I don't cover a lot ofbreaking news.
And I have to feel like thisnews story is like make the yearbook
for the encyclopedia level news.
Right.
This is a big summary ofwhat's going on in the world for
this year.
And it meant that peopleweren't getting my perspective on
the news.
And there was.

(20:02):
Turns out there's a realdearth of publishing news.
There's not a lot of peoplecovering it.
It's kind of hard to gathernews for authors.
And so I think that's part ofthe reason why this new show is doing
so well, is that there's notnearly as much competition, whereas
giving writing advice andmarketing advice is a much more saturated
market.

(20:23):
Yeah.
That's got to be weird,though, to have the show that you've
been working on and honing foryears and then this new thing comes
along.
How long have you been doingthat now?
We've been doing it, yeah,about two months.
And it's only doing better on YouTube.
So we did turn it into a podcast.
We take the audio from it.
And I created a new podcastwith buzzsprout.

(20:45):
And I just take the.
I don't put nearly as much effort.
Right.
I'm not dealing with ID3 tags.
I'm not dealing with compression.
I'm just trusting Buzzsproutto take the MP3 that I get from Riverside
and turn it into a podcast.
And that's done surprisinglywell, actually.
But it's not doing nearly aswell as novel marketing.

(21:07):
So novel marketing still has acore base of listeners.
And this was the otherinteresting thing.
The YouTube audience isbasically entirely new.
There's very little overlap.
There's very few people whoare trying to decide if they want
to watch the video version orlisten to the podcast version.
There's a lot of folks like my mom.
She has in her heart room forabout four or five apps, and YouTube

(21:29):
is one of those apps.
And the podcast apps are notthose apps.
Despite the fact that her sonis a professional podcaster whose
podcast she likes, and herother son is a professional podcast
editor.
Like, my mom would like tolisten to podcasts, but she just
doesn't have room in her lifefor apps.
But now that I'm on YouTube,she watches every episode.

(21:53):
I mean, that's gotta be a.
It's nice to finally get, youknow, mom watching.
But it only took 13 years.
But.
But now mom can also see howmany viewers you have, which you
can't see in the audio world.
Did that take a little gettingused to?
That was the biggest reason Ididn't start doing YouTube sooner
was the transparent popularitywas very scary.

(22:16):
Cause when you start on a Newplatform, you start at zero.
Now, I had an unfair advantagein that we have 12,000 plus people
on our email newsletter.
And so I was able to, when wedo a new episode, I'd be able to
email out to all of oursubscribers, hey, there's a new episode.
And that really juices the algorithm.
So we weren't really startingfrom scratch, but still we were starting

(22:38):
from scratch as far as theYouTube algorithm was concerned.
And the YouTube algorithmdoesn't really start feeding you
new subscribers until you getto the monetization threshold.
So once you can be monetized,which I think you need 4,000 watch
hours and 1,000 subscribers,once YouTube starts putting ads on
your content, YouTube is muchmore motivated to bring you a new

(23:03):
audience.
I think they put ads on yourcontent before that, but they don't
share the money with you.
Right.
I'm not sure how that works.
But part of it all is also, bythe time you've learned how to grow
to a thousand subscribers andlearned how to get 5,000, 4,000 watch
hours, you've gotten better atYouTube because it's its own language,
it has its own rules of whatworks and what doesn't work in its

(23:26):
own way of opening things.
We've talked about all of that stuff.
Took practice to kind offigure it out.
And most of those changesdidn't need to be edited again for
the podcast, the podcastpeople, nobody's complained that
I'm starting episodes faster now.
People are like, no, I wantyou to go back to the more context,
slow or open.

(23:47):
Please don't get to thecontent any quicker.
I was, yeah, well, have youdone the thing where in the audio
podcast you go, you'll seehere up in the right hand corner.
Because that's the only timewhen I kind of go, oh, I'm listening
to a video.
Yeah.
So I don't do a lot of that,but I have done a few videos that

(24:09):
are like that.
But we've always had a blogversion companion for our show for
years and years.
And so my listeners are usedto going to the blog version to see
whatever it is that we'retalking about.
Because we've covered visualtopics before.
We got one negative commentthat I thought was one of our most
well deserved comments.
I did a whole episode on book covers.

(24:30):
This was back when we were anaudio only podcast.
And then we faithfullyconverted that episode about book
covers into a blog post.
But at no point did we add anybook covers to the blog post.
This is 2,500 words, 3,000 words.
Where me, I'm interviewing oneof the top cover designers about
what makes for a good cover.

(24:50):
But at no point is there anactual cover where like, look, here's
an example of what we'retalking about.
And so if you go to that postnow, it has cover.
So it's like, okay, that's fair.
For the blog version, we needto give people something to look
at.
Yeah.
The other thing you mentionedis you emailed out, when a new video
hits, is that something thatjust barely nudges the needle or

(25:16):
is that something, obviouslyyou're still doing it, so it must
be worth it a little bit, buthow much of a difference does it
make to email those people?
Yes, this is another bigadjustment from podcast world.
In podcast world, when anepisode goes live doesn't really
matter.
In fact, I like to have myepisodes all go live at 2 in the
morning.

(25:36):
Because my thought is, if Ipost at 2 in the morning, Apple Podcasts
and Spotify and all thevarious RSS catchers will have updated.
And so when people aredownloading new episodes on their
way to work, our episode willalways be there because there's been
plenty of time for the feedsto refresh.
And I realize nowadays withPod, Ping and AI, it's less of an

(25:58):
issue, but we go back a longtime where sometimes you post an
episode and it wouldn't appearon Apple for, you know, hours and
hours and hours.
So that's just how we do it,and that's how we still do it.
So Wednesday morning at 2am,the new novel marketing episode posts.
The video does not post at 2in the morning because the most important
hour for YouTube, determiningwhether to make a video go viral

(26:21):
or not, is the first hourafter the video is posted.
So if I post a new video whileall of my core audience in the United
states are asleep, YouTubewill determine.
This video is not very popularand there are tools.
And I pay for one calledTubeBuddy, which I think if you're
going to do YouTube paying forTubeBuddy for one year is a good

(26:43):
idea because it will email youevery time you post a video and harass
you about all these thingsI've been talking about and give
you, like, you need to do this better.
You need to do this better.
And I found it reallyannoying, but I was like, all right.
I started doing more and moreof those things and I was like, dadgummit,
these things really do matter.
Yeah.
And it will give you a chart.
It will look at your stats andsay the very best time for you to

(27:04):
post in the day on a Tuesdayis at 2pm and on a Wednesday it's
3pm and if you're going to dolive, then here's the data.
Because YouTube collects justan overwhelming amount of data, and
TubeBuddy does a good jobanalyzing that.
And so TubeBuddy told me thaton Wednesdays, the best time to publish
is noon.
Well, pretty much everypodcast that I personally follow

(27:26):
posts at noon.
So we do ours at 11am so we'renot perfectly following TubeBuddy's
advice, but 11am is prettyclose to noon.
And so it's 11am when the newYouTube video posts, and I try to
send that week's email asclose to 11am as I can.
It doesn't always happenbecause that one piece of it is manual

(27:48):
and that one piece of it is me.
It's not my team.
And so I'm the biggest pointof failure in the system, which I
fully acknowledge.
But when I do send the emailcloser to 11am I find that the video
does dramatically better onthe organic new visitors that YouTube
brings in.
So the more people that Ibring in from my newsletter during

(28:10):
that first hour, it's likeevery person I bring in, YouTube
will double or triple that ofnew users it introduces my show to.
That's interesting because Iknow in the past I've definitely
put out videos at like 1:30 inthe morning because I'm going to
bed and I just want this to beout when I could have easily scheduled
it for a much better time.

(28:30):
Because 11 noon, that makes sense.
People are going to lunch andyou know, they're going to grab their
phone and go, okay, what Imiss while I was doing my job.
And they're going to go rightto YouTube.
So that makes sense.
You mentioned gettingmonetized with the so many hours
and that whole nine yards.
Do you remember, like, howlong did it take you before that

(28:51):
finally took off?
I know you've only been doingit a couple months, but was it, you
know.
Yeah.
So we launched the YouTubechannel technically with those audiograms
years ago.
Oh, there you go.
The same YouTube channel.
But here's the deal.
Those audiograms didn't do any good.
The only one that got anytraffic was an episode we had on
Goodreads, which is still oneof our best performing episodes,

(29:13):
partly because just nobody'stalking about Goodreads.
And we had a really goodepisode on goodreads.
And so YouTube smiled uponthis otherwise not very good episode.
But it was basically one video.
This is the thing aboutYouTube, one video can monetize you.
It's not.
So it's another big shift.

(29:33):
Podcasting is aboutfaithfulness, providing consistent
value every single week.
And really it's about nothaving any bad episodes.
Because if you have two orthree bad episodes in a row, people
start unsubscribing becausethere's that big pressure from the
inbox style apps to listen toevery new episode.
And if people just aren'tfinishing your episode, they start

(29:54):
to feel guilty.
Becomes easier to justunsubscribe than to mark them all
as completed.
And so for success inpodcasting, it's more about avoiding
the bad episodes.
Whereas if you have a badepisode on YouTube, YouTube will
just not show it to anybodyand they'll never know you had this
bad episode.
It's like, like they have todig for it because almost all of
the lists of episodes onYouTube are algorithmically generated.

(30:16):
Whereas on YouTube you canhave one viral episode that makes
all the difference in the world.
And so we did an episodecalled how to write Novels that men
want to read.
And it was about thedifferences between men and women,
which I don't know how it waswhen you were growing up, but that
was not controversial when Iwas growing up that men and women

(30:38):
are different, like logicallyand spiritually, and they have different
tastes and they like different movies.
But wow, this was controversial.
We were taking a boldstatement with this episode and we
were advocating for fictionspecifically written for men because
there's this big buzz on Xabout why are men not reading books?
Men used to read books, nowthey're not reading books.

(30:59):
And I had a guest on who madea really strong case that the publishing
establishment is mostly run by women.
Now.
Most of the editors are women,most of the people on the pub boards
are women.
And they're making editorialdecisions that are geared around
female preferences instead ofmale preferences.
So, for example, info dumps,which men tend to like.
One of the biggest reasons menread fiction is to learn something.

(31:22):
Women don't like info dumps.
And that's been the prevailing information.
Don't do an info dump in your book.
Readers don't like it, when inreality it's female.
Readers don't like it when TomClancy had 30 pages about how to
build a nuclear bomb in themiddle of clear and present danger.
The dudes reading that weremore excited about the 30 pages on
how to make the nuclear bombthan they were about all the adventure

(31:44):
story trying to keep the bombfrom blowing up.
And very different preferences.
We broke down a lot ofdifferent things.
But that episode continues tobe one of our best performing episodes.
And it brought in hundreds ofnew subscribers and brought in thousands
of views because it was a long episode.
It was 50 minutes long,something like that.
And so when you have a longerepisode, it doesn't take nearly as

(32:07):
many viewers who watch throughto the end of it to get your watch
hours.
And that's one of themisnomers that I had to unlearn about
YouTube, because when Istarted on YouTube, my first YouTube
video was in 2005.
It's all about short, short, short.
Right.
You couldn't upload more than10 minutes to YouTube.
Right.
It was a hard limit.
It's like that's not howYouTube is anymore.
The algorithm now favors longwatch time.

(32:29):
So YouTube actually likeslonger videos than shorter videos.
In fact, it's really hard tofind a five minute YouTube video
anymore because those justdon't give YouTube the kind of watch
time that a 15 or 20 minutevideo gives.
Yeah.
Now somebody who had a fiveminute video, we'll cut it down and
just make it a short.
Right.
So they can do it on theirphone or whatever.

(32:51):
Well, now that you've beenmonetized, are you going to retire
now?
Because I know that sweet,sweet YouTube money comes in when
I was, I don't know, I don'twant to get in your wallet.
If you don't want to say,that's fine.
But I mean, when I looked atmy numbers, I think one month I was
making basically $5 cpm.
And is it in that ballpark?
Ish.
No, we're making closer tobetween 200 and $400.

(33:17):
Again, it depends on if we'vehad a viral hit that month.
So one popular video can bringin a lot more.
And the topic seems to alsohave an impact.
So our episodes about AI, theytend to perform a little bit better.
Like it's a popular topic andpeople are really curious about AI
and a lot of people in authorworld aren't really talking about

(33:37):
it, but the advertisers for AIare paying more.
So from what I can tell.
So writing is not a supermonetized topic.
If I had a business podcast,I'd be making a lot more per view,
But AI is a really highlymonetized topic.
And so an episode on AI willactually pay better than an episode

(33:59):
on how to write by the seat ofyour pants as opposed to how to write
from an outline.
So that kind of topic doesn'tmonetize as well.
But yeah, the bigger hits willbring in more money.
But that said, we're currentlyspending more than that on editing
because I staffed up to do theYouTube show for real.

(34:19):
So I have somebody on my teamwho works freelance who's helping
with editing and putting in Broll, which I'm not convinced helps.
I'm actually not.
We're on the fence on B roll.
We don't do it for interviewepisodes very much anymore.
And we're kind of going backand forth on the solo episodes.
But he also helps withthumbnails and with headings.
So as we hit to new, you know,there's a lot of labor that goes

(34:42):
into a good YouTube video.
And so the additional costsand my additional time of, like,
because I now have to do spendmore time in descript for the video
and the costs related toauthor update, we're still losing
money.
So it's not like directly anyway.
We have had an increase inpatrons and I cannot find a good

(35:04):
way to tease out, I guess,other than surveying my patrons if
they're listeners or watchers,because I do know, just anecdotally
interacting with patrons, thata lot of them are now talking about
watching the podcast.
I've been watching yourpodcast recently.
I've recently discovered youand almost all of the recent discoveries
are YouTube folks who justfind out.
In fact, my conference, theNovel Marketing conference, which

(35:27):
was in January, we hadsomebody come to the conference who
found us through the podcast,through the YouTube channel.
And, and we'd only started,like, YouTubing for real for only
a few months.
So, like the, the.
It was mostly still, you know,our email list and our blog, but
there was already folks fromthe YouTube community showing up,
flying across the country toshow up in person to our conference.

(35:50):
So when you started, was your goal?
Because I, I hear a lot ofpeople like, oh, I'm going to grow
my audio audience by startinga video.
And it doesn't sound like youwere like, no, no, I'm going to start.
It's like playing on aseparate stage at, I don't know,
Coachella.
It's like, no, no, I'm gonnagrow an audience over here.
I'm not gonna try to getpeople to leave the main stage, wherever

(36:11):
they are, and come over here.
I'm just gonna build a newaudience over here.
Was that pretty much the strategy?
Yeah, it was an audiencegrowth strategy, and it was also
a reaching a different kind of person.
So the listeners on my audiopodcast and the blog are older and
they're more female.

(36:32):
So my kind of core podcastlistener is a woman.
In her, like between 50 and55, the core YouTube watch person
is a dude in his 30s.
And so it's not just a newaudience, it's like a new audience.
It's like a completelydifferent demographic.
So if you spend any time inwriting world, the typical writing

(36:54):
world is women in their 50s.
That's like the core.
Like if you go to a writersconference, that's the center of
the bell curve.
And that's not what we'rereaching on YouTube.
In fact, for a while ourYouTube audience was like 80% guys,
which probably why men writeepisodes did so well because for
that audience, the like redpill Bros on YouTube audience, that

(37:18):
kind of topic is red meat for them.
They really like that sort of topic.
Whereas a lot of the womenwere very offended.
They're like, I like this kindof fiction too.
It's like, that's fine.
We're not saying that youcan't like these kinds of stories.
Right.
In fact, anyway, I'm not goingto get into the details of that episode.
There's lots of drama,hundreds of comments.

(37:38):
I find that the bestperforming videos don't have more
than about 92% like rate.
You need people clickingdislike for a video to really do
well on YouTube.

(39:22):
The School of podcasting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then the other thing Iwant to ask about was time because
it's like, oh, it's just, youknow, throw on some lights and look
in the camera.
Like, how has this changedyour the the amount of time it takes?
Because how many kids do youhave now?
Four.
We have four children six and younger.

(39:42):
So we're quite busy on the children.
Regards.
Yeah, so that's, you know,time is, you know, that's expensive,
you know, when you got fourkids to handle.
So that was a concern early on.
And the biggest issue of timewas the learning curve.
Because everything we've beentalking about in terms of learning

(40:05):
curve is unique to the YouTube platform.
Specifically, what we haven'ttalked about, how to get the lighting
right, how to get the videoright, how to get the backdrop right.
Like there's this wholelanguage of video that's in addition
to the language of audio.
Right.
Like you're spending all thistime with audio.
How do you get, you know, thebackground noise reduced?

(40:26):
I will say bookshelves full ofbooks do two things.
One, it makes for a good backdrop.
Two, books are shockinglysound dampening and sound blocking.
Two things you want for asound treated room.
A bookshelf will do both ofthose things.
If it's full of books, it'sjust the opposite.
If it's empty of books, thenit becomes a speaker box and it can
do weird things to the echo.

(40:46):
So these books behind me, forthose of you watching the video version,
are sound treatment, butthey're also video treatment for
the room.
And so that's a big learning curve.
And I will save you from 90%of the difficult lessons I had to
learn with two recommendations.
I wish these products eitherexisted or somebody had told me this,

(41:08):
because I spent an entiremonth trying to get a teleprompter
to work, and I just couldn'tget it to work in any sort of reproducible
way.
The Elgato prompter.
Just buy that.
Don't look at any of the others.
The Elgato prompter is magic,and it fixes the eyesight issue,
because one of the problemswith our earlier videos, we'd be
recording in video, but myeyes would be on my screen rather

(41:30):
than on the camera that wasabove the screen, and I wasn't looking
right at the viewer.
And that's disorienting.
People are used to the personon camera looking straight into the
camera.
And so having a prompter.
And the reason why the Elgatoprompter is so magical is because
it can reverse any screen onyour computer.
So you can just put up a zoomwindow or a descript window and still

(41:51):
be able to read all the text.
Any teleprompter can do ascript, but that's not what we do
as podcasters.
Often it's interviews and a script.
Dave, I blew up his scriptprobably 20 seconds into this interview.
You just gotta roll with it.
And so the scripting doesn't work.
And having the Elgatoprompter, It's less than 200 bucks.
Great purchase.

(42:11):
The other purchase thatchanged everything was just using
my iPhone, or my old iPhone inthis case, as my camera.
So if you're on a Mac, Macshave this amazing feature called
feature called Continuity Cam,where an old iPhone, if it's not
too old, can become the webcam.
And your old iPhone performs better.

(42:34):
My old one performs betterthan my $800 mirrorless Sony DSLR
camera, shockingly.
And it's way less hasslebecause it does all of this magic
in its image engine.
Your modern phone is mostlycamera, actually.
And using an actual phone fora camera makes a huge, huge difference.

(42:58):
And so I don't have to worryabout lighting.
I actually keep my lights offmost of the time.
I mean, I have soft light.
I have lots of light sources,so I don't have any harsh shadows.
But I have big elgato key lights.
They're off right now.
I could have a window behind me.
It would expose just fine.
Like a lot of the rules ofmaking lighting work for video, you
don't have to follow if you'reusing a phone because the phone has

(43:20):
AI that knows that peopletaking iPhone pictures are terrible
at taking pictures.
So it just fixes it automatically.
And so those two things makethe video quality piece of it a lot
easier.
If you just have an old.
Instead of giving your oldiPhone to your kids, don't give them
a phone.
Let them enjoy their childhoodfor a little bit longer.

(43:42):
Take your old iPhone andinsert it permanently into your elgato
prompter and that will helpsolve the video piece of it.
But to answer your question,it is absolutely more work, it's
becoming worth it and it'sreally nice to reach these new people
and to have all the energy andexcitement of a new group of folks
in the community.

(44:04):
But it is absolutely more workand also it changes when and where
I can record.
So this is a trick I learnedfrom you.
You've got this really cooltask cam that you'll just connect
to an old XLR mic and you cango to a conference and just record
really quick interviews andget good audio.
To do that with video isdoable, but it's way more complicated.

(44:26):
It's more gear.
So there's just a lot ofcomplexity pieces that get added.
And oh, the third thing Iwould say is something like what
we're recording right now,something that's double ended recording.
If you do those three things,use your phone, elgato prompter and
double ending recording.
The video quality piece willbe pretty good if you're already
following Dave Jackson'sadvice on audio quality.

(44:49):
Yeah, it's a lot of work and alot of fun.
But you know, it sounds likeyou're starting to get, you know,
you're losing money.
But it sounds like things aremoving in the right direction.
We're making progress.
The show is getting bigger,the episodes are getting bigger and
you all miss that.
But when David and I are donerecording one of these episodes,
we tend to talk about gear forquite a long time.

(45:09):
We both buy gear just to testit, which is a very expensive hobby,
by the way.
You have no idea the amount ofmoney Dave spends to keep this show
recommendations interesting.
But yeah, I'm really glad I'mdoing the YouTube channel.
I do think that the newpatrons are covering it, but I don't
have hard data on that.
But it is nice to have anotherrevenue source because YouTube just

(45:32):
straight up gives me money inaddition to the patrons that give
me money.
And I think that's becausePatreon, even though podcasters have
been using it, I thinkYouTubers mention it more.
Well, it started off as a.
It was created by a YouTuber.
Patreon was founded by afamous YouTuber music couple.

(45:54):
One of the things speaking ofYouTube is I always say when you
go to YouTube and youmentioned getting comments and such
on different episodes is Ialways say be careful when you go
to YouTube because they're notafraid to let you know when they
think you stink.
So is that something that ittook a little getting used to or.

(46:16):
Cause it just seems likethey're much more vocal.
Yes.
And this is a big adjustmentbecause if you're from podcast world,
remember a bad podcast episodecauses somebody to stop listening
and then you've lost asubscriber and so negative feedback.
You really have to take thatreally seriously because you want
to keep your subscribers happy.

(46:36):
It's just the opposite on YouTube.
If somebody leaves a reallyscathing negative comment on your
video, that boosts the videoin the algorithm.
And so it actually helps you.
And so you're basicallyharvesting attention from the trolls.

(46:56):
And I know YouTubers who willpurposefully be demonstrating something
and they'll do the math wrong.
They'll say, as you know, sixplus seven is 18 and doing the math
and just to trigger all thepeople going in the comments to correct
their basic mistake.
Because making basic mistakesthat trigger and get people angry

(47:18):
in the comments or make themfeel self righteous by correcting
you or.
Or intelligent.
Actually there's a techniquefor it called engagement farming,
which is a big mindset shift.
It's like, oh yay, I'm gettingsome negative comments.
Because when you get negativecomments, other people will then
respond to those commentsbeing like, nuh.
And if you can get two trollsfighting each other in your comment

(47:39):
section, that draws in a lotmore audience.
I've had people say reallynasty things about me attacking my
appearance and attacking my religion.
Nothing's off bounds.
And I just have to remindmyself, this feeds the algorithm.
They're bringing in morepeople to this YouTube video and
nobody reads the comments tohelp them determine whether or not

(48:02):
to watch a video.
And YouTube tends to surfacethe positive comments at the top.
And you can like comments thatalso cause those comments to float
to the top.
What about.
I know because I listen toyour show.
We both talk about howimportant an email list Is.
Is how does that work on YouTube?
Because I know the one thingthat YouTube really wants you to

(48:24):
do is get that person that'swatching the current video to watch
the next video.
So how does that work?
Where.
Because if you send everyvideo with, like, hey, go over there
and fill out this form and beon my email list, I could see where
YouTube might go.
Yeah, that's not.
That's enough of that.
Stop it.
Actually, YouTube is prettygood about allowing you to put hyperlinks

(48:44):
in the description.
And this is one nice thingabout YouTube compared to podcasting.
So podcasting, you can addlinks, but how people interact with
those links is very.
It's very different dependingon how they're listening to your
podcast.
So are they on Amazon Podcastapp or Amazon Music app?
Are they on Spotify?
Are they on Apple?

(49:05):
Are they on Overcast?
Each one of these platformswill handle the description and links
differently, so it's hard to say.
Check the link in thedescription below to become a patron.
And I think this is actuallyone of the reasons why Patreon does
really well on YouTube,because you have this description
field.
You can put a link to Patreonand people just tap it with their
finger, click it with theirmouse, takes them straight to Patreon.

(49:28):
Whereas there's a funding tagin the podcasting 2.0 features.
And, like, two apps support it.
Realize I'm preaching to thechoir here because you're all in
on podcasting 2.0, but I'mlike, come on, y' all, support the
funding tag.
It's not hard.
It doesn't have to go to Patreon.
You put that link goinganywhere you want.
Overcast supports it, which is good.

(49:49):
But YouTube, though, is reallygood about allowing you to have links.
So we'll always have a link tothe blog version.
We'll typically remember tohave a link to Patreon.
I found that kind of a pleasejoin my newsletter pitch doesn't
work particularly well.
What works better is we havethe special guide companion for this
episode.
Then you can go find thespecific guide for this specific

(50:09):
episode at this specificplace, which is typically the blog
version.
Well, the other thing that Iwanted to ask you about is you had
mentioned something aboutJanuary and the fact that apparently
in January, because you haddecided, hey, New Year, I'm going
to jump into this YouTube thing.
Yes, that was fortuitous.

(50:29):
I had heard this somewhere.
We started taking video seriously.
We started getting into it in December.
That's when some of our firstviral videos started hitting, I think
the Writing for Men was alittle bit before that, but January,
we were like, okay, we'regoing to hit the ground running.
And I did not appreciate justhow big the Dearth of new YouTube

(50:52):
content is in January.
It's like the perfect time tostart a new show because all of the
monetized shows basically takeJanuary off because the amount of
money in the advertisingbucket falls off a cliff.
So advertisers spend, spend,spend in December, ramping up for
the Christmas retail season.

(51:13):
And then it's the new year andthey're not.
Everyone's in recovery.
Like if you go to a grocerystore, like a department store in
January, like, half theshelves are empty.
Like, retail world takesJanuary off effectively.
And YouTubers, many of them doas well because they'll make a fraction
of the money in it for aJanuary video that they'll make for

(51:34):
that exact same video in December.
And you'll see a lot of reallygood YouTube content in December
and November.
It's like sweeps week on theTV because there's just so much money
to be made from the YouTubeAdSense and the advertising.
And so it worked out great forus because we're like going gung
ho.
We're doing lots of newcontent and a lot of the big channels

(51:56):
that we're competing with,even if they're on different topics,
but just big channels ingeneral aren't putting out a lot
of content, particularly thosefirst couple weeks in January.
And so we got some kind ofunearned views.
It was easier to attract newaudience in January.
So if you're starting a newYouTube channel, I wouldn't start
in January.
I would start sooner becausetry to get through that learning

(52:16):
curve.
But do a big push.
Plan to do lots of new contentin January, and I think you'll be
glad you did.
Well.
So you would be the guy to ask then.
Brand new person wants tostart a podcast.
And I'm sure the answer isgoing to be, it depends because it's
a podcast question, but shouldthey start audio only?

(52:37):
Should they start video?
Should they do both?
The medium is the message.
And I think that's notactually the first question to ask.
I think the first question toask is, what is the format of my
show?
Because there's a lot ofdifferent show formats out there,

(52:57):
and some show formats lendthemselves better to one format or
another.
So our live news show worksreally well as a video first event
because we have a reallyengaged comment section.
And whether we're usingRiverside or Streamyard, we can take
questions from YouTubecomments and put them up on screen,

(53:18):
which allows our live audienceto comment on the news.
And because there's two of usdoing it, whoever's not talking is
kind of scrolling through thecomments and throwing the comments
up on screen.
And it's just a really greatvisual experience.
Okay, so that's kind of on oneend of the spectrum.
Now, let's say you're a pastorand you want to do a daily devotional

(53:41):
show where you're going toread a couple chapters of the Bible,
have some thoughts on it, andthen a prayer.
And the idea is that this isgoing to be a part of somebody's
devotional rhythm thatabsolutely needs to be an audio podcast.
Nobody wants a video versionof that.
That in no way is enhanced bybeing video.
In fact, people may be doingor experiencing your show with their

(54:05):
Bible on their lap.
And if they have to be lookingat your screen now, it's made it
just a worse experience.
So those are kind of the twoedges, and there's a lot of room
in the middle for shows thatwork in both formats.
So the kind of classicinterview show I don't think is a

(54:25):
very interesting YouTube show, right?
Two faces, two people talking.
But I have thousands ofviewers on YouTube who disagree with
me.
And so I was like.
And they prefer because wehave both.
And the YouTube versioninterrupts them with ads.
The podcast version does not,unless I have a pre roll or a post

(54:46):
roll, which only hits at thebeginning and the end.
But they prefer to watch theYouTube version.
And this is actually anotherthing I would mention.
A big advantage of having apodcast over a YouTube show is dynamically
inserted content.
And Dave, you do this reallygood with your, like, where's Dave
going to be next week segment.
You can't do that on YouTube.

(55:07):
It's this frozen thing.
You can't dynamically insert content.
For those of you listening inthe future, you're like, yes, we
can.
But as of this recording,that's all in beta.
We don't know if it's going tobe released to mortals or what the
rules are going to be.
But like, for authors, for myaudience, dynamically inserted content
is magic.

(55:28):
So you're an author, you'retalking about podcasting, let's say.
And then you've got a bookcoming out on podcasting, you've
got a thousand old episodes.
You can take some dynamiccontent and insert it at the beginning
and end of all thousand ofthose old episodes.
They're all getting some ads,some views, and suddenly you're sending
everybody to Your book launchand book launches are.
It's all about sales all at once.

(55:50):
And it's really helpful.
And then you have a new book.
You swap out those ads, youfeature the new book.
That's really nice.
That's a great advantage ofpodcasting over YouTube.
So it's not all rainbows andbutterflies in YouTube land.
It's a lot of hard work.
There are some downsides, andit is nice to have both because you
can do live video and put thecomments up on screen and say, look

(56:13):
here.
But it's also nice to havejust an audio podcast where you can
edit out the ums and the uhsabout people's heads jumping all
over the screen.
It's always fun.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
My friend, Thomas Umstadt Jr.
Novelmarketing.com you cancheck out his podcast over there.
He's got a bunch of resources.
He's got a conference now.

(56:34):
How cool is that?
We didn't even talk.
We'll have to have you comeback sometime and talk about the
joy that is having your own conference.
The oldest way to monetize a podcast.
And I would say it should notbe the first thing you try.
But I appreciate all theinsights and I know I've learned
a bunch of stuff that I was like.

(56:55):
And I appreciate all the info, man.
Thanks for coming on.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Wow.
There's a lot of stuff to chewin there.
SchoolOfPodcasting.com 986 iswhere you can find the links to Thomas's
website.
Again, novelmarketing.comalong with TubeBuddy, I use Vidiq.

(57:17):
I think they're both the samething in a way, or the same type
of thing.
Here's the thing.
Remember, when you say, I'mgoing to add something, you should
take the time to learn thethings that Thomas just talked about.
Learn how to come up with good titles.
Learn how to come up with good thumbnails.
Otherwise you're kind ofwasting your time.

(57:37):
I have now kind of solidifiedwhat I've thought all along, which
is the whole static image.
Is it better than nothing?
Barely.
Like just barely.
And then you notice where hemoved to Talking Heads.
That helped.
And then they started doingthumbnails and titles.
So it's just more stuff.

(57:58):
And if you've got the time andthe budget and the desire, you just
got some great tips on how toreally start your YouTube channel.
And also, if you thought itwas a lot of work, you're kind of
like, yeah, it's a lot of work.
And Especially when it comesto gear.
I've heard so many people nowsay, use your phone.

(58:18):
As much as I would love tohave an affiliate commission on a
Sony VZ10, you know, DSLRcamera, just use your phone.
And then I'll have links tosome lighting, some they make these
little clip on microphones nowthat aren't bad if you want to get
started in video, but at leastnow again, you're making an informed

(58:40):
decision, which is what we areall about here at the school of podcasting.
My biggest fear is always withvideo is the fact that I hear people
come up to me with a greatidea and I go, why aren't you turning
that into a podcast?
And they'll say, I don't wantto do video.
And I go, you don't have to.
And they go, no.

(59:01):
Everybody says you do.
And I'm here to say, no, you don't.
But if you decide you want to,you just got some great tips from
Thomas.

(01:00:49):
If you know someone who isthinking of diving into YouTube,
could you do me a favor andshare this episode with them?
They're going to think you'reamazing because you share this boots
on the Ground report and I getto grow my audience.
Or you could just tell them togo to schoolofpodcasting.com.
either one is fine by me.
In fact, I double dog dare youto tell more than one person, maybe

(01:01:13):
three.
Ooh, that's just crazy talk.
That'd be great fun.
But I am Dave Jackson.
I help podcasters.
It's what I do.
I can't.
I just can't wait to see whatwe're going to do together.
And until next week, take care.
God bless.
Class is dismissed.
And I'll have links toThomas's website, to Bubbity, to

(01:01:35):
Ba ba ba ba.
Hey, B.
Big fat Albert, if you likewhat you hear, then go tell someone.

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