July 14, 2025 • 44 mins
Is traditional school no longer working for your child? In this powerful conversation, we sit down with Matt Bowman, former teacher and co-founder of OpenEd (formerly MyTechHigh), to explore how personalized, project-based education can give families real freedom.
We dive into how Matt and his wife Amy built a learning model that honors kids' creativity, family values, and faith — all while breaking free from the one-size-fits-all system. Whether you’re exploring homeschooling, unschooling, or just need a better option, this episode will inspire you to take the lead.
👉 Discover how elementary, middle, and high schoolers can thrive, how tech empowers learning, and how parents can guide with love, limits, and latitude.
🎯 What You’ll Learn:
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Why traditional school often fails kids
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How OpenEd empowers student-led learning
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Real stories of homeschool success
-
Faith-based approaches to education
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Tools for starting your own journey
🔔 Subscribe + Follow for more!
If you're a faith-driven mom exploring homeschooling, unschooling, or personalized learning, this show is for you. Don’t forget to follow, subscribe, and leave a review — it helps more families find freedom in education!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello my friends and welcome back.
I'm so excited to have Matt Bowman today.
He is the founder, with his wife, of OpenEd,
formerly known as MyTechHigh.
Opened is in several states.
But a little bit more about Matt.
He is an innovator in education and
technology and is deeply dedicated in
(00:21):
transforming the way children learn.
He and his wife, amy, co-founded OpenEd
together, and the Bowmans have spent over
three decades championing personalized
education, combining cutting-edge
technology with an entrepreneurial spirit
to help students thrive in a rapidly
changing world.
He also has five children, all who are
(00:44):
married, and four grandchildren, so you've
been around the block a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, I have Janae, Great to be here with
you today.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Thank you for coming, and today we're going
to be talking a little bit about open
education and his new book that just came
out Open Education how to Reimagine
Learning, ignite Curiosity and Prepare your
Kids for Success.
So I'm super excited to have you today to
talk about everything.
So let's get started.
First of all, how did you get interested in
(01:15):
the topic of education in the first place?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it goes back to my mom.
My mom was a high school teacher and so I
really have education in my blood and I
actually started my first education company
when I was 17.
I ran a summer camp for kids teaching them
sports something I love and so I realized
early on how much I love kids and love
(01:39):
teaching and love helping kids learn stuff,
and so that was really the foundation.
I then got my degree in elementary
education and taught sixth grade up in
Washington State and just loved it and it
was just super exciting I love the light
bulbs that go on.
But then I started seeing the system just
not really be flexible enough for the
(02:01):
diverse needs of kids.
I ended up getting a grant to bring this
new thing called the internet into my
classroom in 1996, janae, so that was a
long, long time ago and the very start of
online learning.
I was there from the beginning and I saw
what that allowed for in terms of flexible
(02:21):
education models for kids.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So then let's transition.
What happened with that transition, like,
how did you then jump from I'm a teacher
and I've got the internet?
Then what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So then I actually left the classroom.
I got a job offer from a tech company to
run their online education programs
globally, and so I jumped into the high
tech industry and loved it.
I was there for 13 years and during that
time we were raising our five children all
in the same house, the exact house with the
same routines and expectations, and you
(03:00):
know cadences and family nights, and
everything was just, you know, the same.
And all five children were different.
And we started realizing that, oh, I wonder
if their education ought to be customized
and figure out each a solution for each
child, for their education.
So that's what started those wheels turning.
(03:21):
Our oldest ended up wanting to go to a
charter school.
That was brand new and something that no
one did in our area.
So we said, sure, ended up wanting to go to
a charter school.
That was brand new and something that no
one did in our area.
So we said, sure, if he wants to go there,
let's go there.
And we got criticized and attacked for
giving up on the local district school.
And we weren't anti-public school at all,
we were very much supporters of just
(03:41):
finding the right school for each of our
children.
So all five of our kids ended up doing
something very different along the way from
each other, and we thought I wonder if
other families are experiencing the same
feeling that their kids are all different
and maybe their education design needs to
be different.
And so that's what led us to start
(04:01):
MyTechHigh back in the day and now called
OpenEd.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I love it.
Now, how old was your oldest at the time
when he was like I want to go to a charter
school?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Twelve.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Okay, so he's, I mean Still young.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, we gave him a voice, though that's
one of the chapters in the book is give
your child a voice.
And we were criticized by others that said,
oh, you should step in as the adult and do
what you know is right.
We're like, well, our son is asking to go
to this charter school and he's excited
about it.
(04:36):
Let's honor that voice, and so that's
something we really believe in.
We ended up then every year asking our
children each summer hey, what would you
like your education to be this fall?
And having conversations all the way down
to the seven or eight year olds, right, and
at least listening to them and hearing what
they valued or cared about helped us then
(04:59):
say, well, we can design this, we can have
you do this, we can do a hybrid, we can do
you know part whatever.
And that conversation in and of itself is
valuable, even if you just intentionally
and appropriately choose your boundary
district school.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I never say there's anything wrong with
that, just intentionally choose that if
you're going to yes, well, and I think it's
scary as a parent when we've been so
conditioned that this is how we do things
and this is the expectation of a child to
allow the children to actually have freedom
and have a voice to say something.
There's something very terrifying.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It's terrifying, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What if they choose video games?
I hear that all the time they're going to
play video games the whole day.
That's what they'll choose, and I'm like
you'd be surprised.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You know that's a great answer, janae is
that people people who, kids who have been
in a highly structured kind of intense test
prep environment, that's their natural out
because they're they're they're so
unengaged by learning.
Once they get over that and have some detox
time and be able to reignite the joy of
learning, they want to learn stuff, they
(06:11):
are interested in learning.
It's a fun experience and it's really that
fear of they'll just play video games all
day is because they have been too
structured in that environment and not
given enough freedom or voice in what they
choose to learn.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It's true, it's true.
So how did this play out with your kids
then over the years?
Because you had the first one.
First one goes to a charter school.
What was his experience with the charter
school?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
He loved it.
Our second.
Then we said, okay, we're, we're all in in
this charter school, right, that was our
thought when the old and it started at
seventh grade.
And so all of our kids, when they turn in
seventh grade, they're all gonna start
going to this charter school.
We're gonna all in with the family.
So our second went and he enjoyed it.
He had a great time.
(06:57):
Our third one went when he got to seventh
grade, went for a year and said no way,
that is not for me, I'm out.
And we thought to ourselves no, you know,
this is what we're going to be doing.
And then we realized, okay, the third's out,
you know.
And then it's that guilty feeling like,
well, why are we keeping the other two in
(07:17):
if it's not a good fit for the third?
Right.
And people say, oh, you see that it's not
good because your third didn't choose it.
Well, no, it wasn't good for him, right.
And so then we had, I think at the time,
five kids in four different schools, right.
And so you can.
And then it's just becomes carpool
management, right.
And so our third said no, I'm never going
(07:39):
there again.
I'm never going there again.
And so then our fourth came and she's like
I don't want to go there either.
I want to follow my brother who went back
to his district school.
And then the third did, the fifth did the
same.
So we ended up two of ours ended up
graduating from that charter school went
all seventh through 12th grade.
The other ones went a mix of of online and
(08:02):
district school kind of hybrid models, mix
of of online and district school kind of
hybrid models.
Our fifth, finally, finally, after all
these years, said I want to just completely
do stuff flexible.
So she ended up doing her associate degree
online at home in the mornings, going at
lunchtime to her district school with her
friends, stayed for a release time seminary
(08:23):
program and then a ceramics class, and she
was a three-sport athlete.
So it was funny, though, janae, no one knew
that she wasn't there in the mornings,
right I mean because, like these kids are
barely you know, they're waking up by noon,
they're going to lunch, and they just
thought they weren't in the same class that
she had that morning, whatever, right.
(08:44):
So she had zero, like people didn't even
know.
So she was just fully integrated into her
high school experience with sports and
dances and whatever, but she did her
associate degree, she did her schooling in
the mornings and then went and hung out at
the school from in the afternoons and did
her sports practices and would come home at
six, have no homework and have no stress
(09:06):
because she just did her schooling in the
mornings and it was just such a fun time
for us.
She ended up hanging out with us more than
her friends because they were all just
stressed out about college prep and tests
and studying and she ended up getting her
associate degree and was very low stress.
It was really exciting to see.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I love that.
So then, how many of your kids decided to
go on and do either college or tech school
or entrepreneur, like what?
What happened with the kids then at that
point?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah.
So at the time our four we got our four
oldest all decided they wanted to go to BYU.
At the time our four oldest all decided
they wanted to go to BYU and so they all
got into BYU and then only two stayed and
one of those two reluctantly stayed right
just because he wanted to be a teacher and
he was already through the path and it was,
(10:00):
you know, to get his license.
So we say go to college if it answers your
why.
And so we say go to college if it answers
your why, if you have to go there for a
license for you know, any type of college,
a trade school or an academic university,
whatever gets you your license or your why.
But then two of the kids were there and
(10:20):
just was not the right fit for them and
they ended up doing a competency-based
online degree, one through our partner with
Southern New Hampshire, which is fantastic,
and another one through Western Governors
and and so those two finished online
degrees and we didn't say they needed to or
whatever, they just chose to wrap that up
online.
(10:41):
The youngest then finished her associate
degree and then went on LDS mission and
came home and said I'm never going to
college again, I just want to work and
learn and start, you know, explore my own
business pursuits and that kind of stuff.
So but then, with that said, two of our two
of our children, our first and third,
(11:01):
became public school teachers.
So they currently work as public school
teachers and we always said that's great,
you'll always have to be an entrepreneur on
the side.
That's a given you you work 180 days and
you're done at two, you know three o'clock
or three, 30.
And you probably need to come up with some
sort of entrepreneurial pursuit on the side
in the summers and after school.
(11:22):
And they have and so they enjoy having a
kind of a steady experience with teaching
and then having entrepreneurship side
businesses and I think that's great.
That's what I did.
I was a sixth grade teacher.
One year I had seven different jobs I was
doing when, when school started in August,
just to make ends meet, my wife stayed home
with our kids and and anyway it was a lot
(11:43):
of fun.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's so fun.
So at that point, because I mean, obviously
your kids all took very, very, very
different paths, did that play into
developing my tech high, or was that
happening simultaneously?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It was all happening at the same time.
So our kids I think our oldest was 14 or 15
when we started open ed, so our kids were
from 15 down to, you know, eight or
whatever.
During that time when we started and we
just started realizing and you'd appreciate
this we started seeing what families were
(12:20):
doing in our program, the custom designs
they were doing for their children.
My wife and I turned to each other.
Well, we should start doing some of that
for our kids.
We learned from the parents that we were
actually enrolling in our program so our
kids benefited from the many parents who
were the pioneers of our program to help
(12:41):
really see what's possible.
When you take off kind of those shackles of
a structure and just design for kids, it's
amazing what can happen.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I love that.
No, because one of the things I read in the
book is that initially you set up open ed
for like 16, 17 year olds and then that
shifted.
Talk about that.
That a little bit.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah.
So our first, you know, business plan that
we wrote down was, you know, this was 2009.
So there was a lot in the tech world and,
you know, coding was a big thing and tech
founders were, you know, turning businesses
into billion dollar valuations and and we
thought, know, turning businesses into
(13:23):
billion dollar valuations?
And and we thought, oh, let's just start a
kind of a tech incubator.
That was our original design.
Let's get 16 or 17 year olds to start
businesses and we can turn them into tech,
you know, gurus and startups and be on
Fortune and Inc and whatever, right.
So that was the idea at the time and it was
legit, like I thought we could really do
that.
Our first year, the average age was nine
(13:44):
years old and so we said, oh, wow, that's a
little young to start having them.
You know, go look for investments or start
coding or whatever.
And so I I did my best those for a few
first few years chatting with the 16 or 17
year olds sharing this vision, because I
(14:04):
thought, OK, we have a small subset, but
let's do it.
And at the time I couldn't get any of their
attention except for ACT, sat prep, early
college, what's my credit?
What's my?
What's my transcripts going to look like
when am I going to go to call it?
That was the only conversation those kids
(14:25):
could have and I realized I turned to the
10 to 14-year-olds, which is where I taught
sixth grade, and I thought, oh, I wonder if
they're interested and they were so eager
to.
We had 10-year-olds starting businesses and
running fun stuff and we would seed them
with some money and highlight them with
business plans.
And they were just.
(14:46):
They couldn't get enough of what we were
feeding them in terms of entrepreneurship,
innovation, creativity, build your own
games, build your own websites, like that.
That was just so fun for them, but they
weren't ready to become you know ink
entrepreneurs fun for them, but they
weren't ready to become you know ink
entrepreneurs.
And so we kind of gave up and pivoted and
(15:06):
said we're going to put all this energy
into the 10 to 14 year old.
And still today, like our average age, I
think, is nine or 10 across you know, tens
of thousands of families over the years and
it's super interesting to see that age
group.
And it was funny because my master's degree
in education, my focus, was the 10 to 14
(15:29):
year old forgotten child, because we often
don't.
We clump them in as high schoolers or we
clump them in as elementary kids and
they're just not.
They're just this middle age group that is
so fun, so much energy.
They're so different from each other that
it's just stark revelation that they aren't
all the same.
Like the 10 year old to the 14 year old,
they could all be exactly the
(15:50):
developmentally normal.
And one is six, four and the other is four,
six and the other's one's shaving and one's
never even seen a hair on his face right,
and so they're so different from each other
and yet we think a public system can assess
and test and educate them exactly the same.
(16:11):
You know and talk about the difference
between boys and girls.
At that age Girls are just so much more
mature, typically, and just feel so much
more grown up than some of the their peer
boys that are just so different from each
other.
And we think they should all be exact same
reading level, the same month and date.
(16:31):
Like it makes zero sense developmentally.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, yeah, and then, and then you throw in
and you're going to read this material that
some person decided was interesting for you,
and the boys are like what?
Not interested yeah not not reading that,
and so it's true.
So so for those of, for for my listeners,
can you explain what Open Ed is?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So Open Ed is a program where that helps
families chart their own course in their
education plan.
So it taps into the.
We partner with public schools so we bring
the resources and and dollars and funding
to the family underneath an approved
program by the district.
So it's a district partner program.
(17:18):
They have teachers, curriculum, technology
all provided as part of the family.
There's no cost to the family to
participate in that district partner
program.
So that's one category of Open Ed.
The other one that we're and that's
available in seven or eight states this
fall.
The other category is Open Ed Academy,
(17:39):
which we're excited to launch this fall,
which is a private pay model for people who
live in states where we don't operate.
So it's out of pocket but it embraces still
the personalized education mantra which is
take from all of our resources that we have
curated, tap into them, see if it helps
your family.
(18:00):
We've brought the cost down as low as
possible.
It's $2,900 for K-8 private schooling.
It is super affordable and is accredited so
you can go all the way through high school.
If you want get an official diploma, you
can also.
Then we have an early college option for
$5,000 a year where you can get your
associate or bachelor's degree through our
(18:22):
partner program, and so we just want to
give all those options available to both
the district program model and the private
pay model, to the world.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I love it, and with your college program
you partner with other universities.
Is that correct, correct?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Southern New Hampshire University is one
that I tout because it's really the only
one that I have found in the world that
does competency-based, project-based
programs, and it's interdisciplinary, which
is also really innovative, like the layers
of innovation they've done.
(18:59):
No one else has matched In terms of there's
not math, english, history, science.
It's an integrated project that
incorporates all the subjects into one and
it's a mastered or not yet rubric grading
model.
So you submit your project and you get four
of the things mastered and two of them not,
yet you work on your not yet submit that
(19:20):
get the credit when you're done with your
you know all your not yets.
Instead of waiting for a semester to get
your credit, you can just, if you're
competent, demonstrate it and move on,
instead of just rehashing all semester
until you can get the credit.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, well, and I love that.
And that's something that I noticed when we
started homeschooling with our kids, at how
fast some of my kids went through certain
things.
And and I remember my now 18 year old son
at the time he was 13 when we started
homeschooling and we did, he went through
his math, his math program and he, he came
(19:59):
out one day he's like when we very first
started and he said, mom, it literally took
me 45 minutes to go through three weeks
worth of math that I would have done in the
public school.
Yeah, and I said it's true.
And then I have one child who math just I
mean as an example, it really struggles
with math and so it takes her a little bit
(20:20):
longer.
And yet in a traditional system they can't.
They will stick with what the teacher is
doing and when the teacher is doing it, and
I love that.
New Hampshire university is um Southern New
Hampshire, is that right?
Southern?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
New.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Hampshire, you know, does that that where
it's okay, you got done.
So you got done, which I noticed.
We did open ed, our first year of
homeschooling, as our enrichment program,
which is in the state of Colorado, how it
was set up, which I think it's still the
same way now, and my son was like you mean,
I can zip through these projects on my pace
(20:54):
and I'm like that's what it looks like.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And he loved it, isn't that great.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I also loved that one of my younger
kids was doing Minecraft and wrapping my
head around like a class on Minecraft.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Isn't that great.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Is that allowed?
The public school teacher in me, because I
taught middle school, was like can we do
that?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Right, so I love it.
Our book is scattered with references to
Lego and Minecraft.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, and that's what I noticed the
co-author, isaac, of the book, talked about
that that he would zip through his
homeschooling and then spend all this time
doing Legos, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's so true, and even one of his stories
of his own son.
They tried every parental tactic under the
sun to get him to do math and he just would
not, he just didn't.
And it wasn't until he was 13 years old
that this son wanted to go to some program,
(21:58):
some co-op or something, and it required
him to take a math test to be a grade level.
And he wanted that class so much, with his
friends or whatever, that he spent a summer
starting at kindergarten.
He's a 13-year-old and said I'm just going
to start at kindergarten math.
(22:18):
And he built his way up in a matter of
weeks.
He went through 13 years, you know, or
whatever, like seven grade levels of math
facts and he was able to pass the test and
get in.
Like that.
That's the concept of when you're ready,
when a learner's ready, learning can stick.
Yeah, we think that we're teaching kids
(22:40):
just by imposing standards on them every
year and that doesn't mean learning is
sticky.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
No, no, not at all.
And well, and I think, I think it's true
that, like for for children, every child
develops differently and they, as you
mentioned earlier with the 10 to 14 year
olds, some of these, I have a 13 year old
who still wears size eight clothes.
He's like in kids clothes and he's tiny,
right Um.
But they, they grow physically, they grow
(23:08):
differently.
Why do we think that emotionally and
academically they're all going to grow
exactly at the same pace?
I taught, like you.
I taught six, seventh and eight.
Well, I taught six, seventh and eighth and
I was always, I was shocked, you know,
watching my seventh graders where they were
so tiny and then the boys would come back
(23:28):
into eighth grade over the summer and they
had grown to six feet and and yet
emotionally they weren't there yet, you
know like.
But the girls were, you know, so tall by
sixth grade that emotionally they were more
like 14-year-old.
You know like, but yeah, but yet we expect
(23:49):
that our kids are going to emotionally grow
the same.
But it's true, it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I don't know how anyone concluded
that was logical.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Right?
Well, it was nefarious, as you know, in the
first place.
So thank you, Horace Mann.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Well, it was really around efficiency and
control, not learning.
So I mean, at the end of the day, that is,
we have to acknowledge that that's what the
system was to do.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Right, which and I love, and I love that
you bring that up in the book that that
Horace Mann was like okay, the Prussian
model is efficient, that'll get us.
That'll get us the book that that horace
man was like okay, the prussian model is
efficient, that'll get us.
That'll get us the results that we need,
which was not minds that are thinking
correct ever, not ever, yep so let's talk
about.
Uh, how did you, when and how did you
decide to write open ed?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
so open education yeah, so key distinction
there.
So open education is the broad category,
open ed the company and program just is one
sliver of open education, gotcha.
And so just wanted to be clear about that.
A couple years ago, you know, my wife and I
well, it probably goes back to COVID so we
were growing every year in our program.
(24:56):
We've been doing it since 2009.
So this is our 16th year and we were
growing great and all of a sudden, covid
hits and you can imagine just our and I've
read your story of just you know that was
where things changed for you and your
family and that happened for so many.
And yet they were telling us that they
(25:16):
would only come in, they were only going to
do this for a year until things got back to
normal.
And then the second year, in 2021, they
stayed again and said okay, one more year.
This is kind of cool.
Like I'm kind of liking this, I'm going to
go back, I'm going to go back.
And so we didn't know how to manage our
business.
Like it was just chaotic during those
(25:37):
couple of years.
And then all of a sudden, 22 and 23,
everybody was just stayed and our
enrollment just grew and grew and grew.
So then it kind of outpaced what we were
able to manage, my wife and I.
And so in 2023 and 24, we said, okay, it's
time to hire people that know how to run a
(25:57):
business.
You know we're very much educators and you
know passionate parents.
But we needed some help and so I stepped
down as CEO last last summer.
So July 1st is the anniversary of our new
CEO, which is Isaac Incredible guy,
incredible visionary, incredible business
manager, leader, just to his core.
(26:19):
So we are so thrilled to have Isaac be our
CEO, and so, as part of that, we said, okay,
we need to start, we need to.
Just, he said, first thing, you got to
write down everything.
You got to write down your story, your,
your philosophy, your mindset, right, all
that down.
And so we had started writing some of that
(26:40):
down last year early, but he kind of helped
us accelerate that, get it all into the
book, and I honestly just could not be more
happy with how the book turned out.
It's everything that my wife and I have
tried, failed, tried, succeeded.
Like it's not coming from a standpoint of
expertise, it's coming from hey, this is
(27:02):
what we tried.
These are the things that we've learned for
ourselves and our children as well as now,
collectively over a hundred thousand
enrollments over those years.
Like we've seen it work and so we can stand
from a point of confidence.
Hey, family, you're not alone.
The fears you have are real, the
insecurities are real, but guess what you
(27:23):
can do it?
You can absolutely help your children
thrive, and we put in the book just
tactical ways to do that.
So that's how it turned out and really it's
just, it's our life's work in one place and
now that's done.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Well, and I love it and I do.
I love that you give.
I think we learn best through our failures,
yeah, but yet in the education system,
you're not allowed to fail, you can't fail.
Yeah, failure is bad, right, you're not
allowed to fail.
You can't fail.
Failure is bad, right, failure is bad.
It's not an option, but yet that's how.
That's how the greatest minds who have ever
done anything have learned was through the
failure, and so I I appreciated the, the
(28:03):
different case studies and granted, they
were your personal case studies um that you
gave and and the um the reassurance that
you give to parents, that that it's to
parents, that it's okay, and some of the
backlash that you're going to get.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, it's a little bit messy.
We like the phrase learning out loud.
That's what we're doing as we're writing
and reading.
But give yourself some grace.
Give yourself some attempts to just do
things wrong and do things right.
Your children will benefit from that
process, that journey.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I love that.
What were some of your fears like,
especially as your kids were growing up and
you're doing a different education model
for all of them?
What were some of the fears that you and AB
experienced?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
They're the fears that every parent
experiences, which is what if I mess up my
kid right?
What if I close the door that we wish would
have been opened, or whatever?
And so those were real emotions we were
dealing with, and, as it turns out, a lot
of those fears and insecurities are
(29:16):
misplaced.
When you invest in your children's love of
learning and passion around pursuing things
of interest, the opposite happens they
become more self-reliant, they become more
resilient, they become more determined to
learn things that they're interested in,
and then that learning by itself lets them
(29:39):
navigate work learning or school learning
or whatever, in a way that's better from
someone who has just always been told
exactly what they have to do.
That that shift from I just follow
instructions to I want to take charge of my
life and my learning is so amazing and so
(30:01):
rewarding to see in children as they become
adults that they, they've got this, they,
they have confidence in themselves to
figure it out, instead of always turning to
someone else to guide to, to make that path,
you know, forced upon them.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I love that.
Let's talk a little bit about um, how you
started integrating.
Um, we are eclectic unschoolers.
Um, we're not radical unschoolers.
I'm not one of those that's like figure
everything out on your own.
You want to learn to read well Like figure
everything out on your own, you want to
learn to read Well.
Good for you.
You know like I'm not helping.
Good luck with that.
You know I expect my kids to be able to
(30:40):
read well, write well and do math, and so
I'm like I need help in those areas.
So I will employ a curriculum when I need
to Right.
But yet otherwise we do unschooling and
passion driven learning or child learning,
and I noticed that that that was something
(31:00):
that you that you brought into open ed,
both on the business side with with that,
and you talk about it a little bit in the
book.
Can you talk about how you integrate that a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah for sure.
And pointing out that our by design the O
in open ed in our program, by design our
parentheses, not a closed O, and the
concept of that is boundaries and some
structure, is actually liberating.
(31:34):
When it's nothing, when there's no,
anything that's actually can be
overwhelming and and defeating.
And so if you can provide some structure,
some brackets and fill in the blank in the
middle, that's really the best of of all
the worlds.
And so that's where I'd start is don't fear
that having some structure is anti-open ed
(31:59):
or anti-open education like or
anti-customizing for your child, like
having some brackets is powerful.
We also one of the chapters.
I bring up a phrase that I learned many
years ago from a research article love,
limits and latitude.
Those three are a parental strategy, not
(32:20):
just around education, but it applies very
well.
Fill your children with lots of love.
At the same time, give them limits and then
at the same time acknowledge latitude.
That has to occur when things are a little
bit confusing, messy, different.
You can't always just stick with the limits,
(32:42):
because sometimes those limits don't make
sense and you have to adjust.
And so this balance of love, limits and
latitude is, that's a forever quest of
parenting, is trying to figure out what the
right balance and you mentioned, you know
we chatted before uh, parenting 20
something year olds is really challenging
(33:05):
and it's because those three elements of
love, limits and latitude are all are all
different.
And you know, on on, not that you're
imposing rules on them, but the limits you
have in what you advise or what you give,
or you know, you have all this love but you
got to have some limits.
And then you have some latitude that might
(33:25):
not be the exactly the same for every child
and that's just so hard to navigate.
And we're going through that, you know, as
we speak.
So it's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, and it is, and it is challenging
because I found, even with adult kids, I'm
like, would you mind if I share some advice,
you know?
Because because for them one of the limits,
is I don't I don't want unsolicited advice
from you.
You know like I will, you can share on my
terms and and so, navigating the adult
children, I'm still going.
(33:54):
Oh, my goodness, no, we had.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
We had to basically say look, we have lots
of advice, lots of experience that we are
happy to share, but I need to hear the
words hey, mom or dad, I'd like your advice
on this topic.
If I don't hear that, I'm going to.
I'm going to want to share, but I'm going
to respect that you don't want it until you
ask that question.
(34:17):
So it's tough.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
It's true.
So yesterday in the Daniels family our
18-year-old had planned with his four best
friends, who one is about to graduate and
the others have graduated, and some were
public schooled and some were homeschooled,
and anyway they've they planned a road trip
(34:38):
and we found out yesterday morning.
They were planning on leaving yesterday
afternoon and yesterday morning they're
like these are our plans and I'd kind of
like kept a little bit of a pulse on their
plans.
They're like we're going to drive for 10
hours every day for six, for six days.
We're going to stop at places and then, uh,
(35:00):
do something and then sleep and then drive
another 10 hours.
And we're like well, one of the
stipulations is no one else can drive our
son's car for for liability reasons.
Well, we didn't find out about this.
10 hours of driving every day, like they
told us, like this is where we're going to
go.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Right the general plan.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
The general plan.
And then yesterday morning our son is like
here it is.
And we're like no, no, no, no, no, no, you
are not driving to the coast of Oregon in
California 10, to the coast of Oregon and
California 10 hours Anyway.
So so my, my husband's, like you're not
going like this is like if that's the plan
(35:40):
which you didn't give us until this morning
and, by the way, you're leaving on father's
day, what the heck you know?
Um, so so the friends all came, they all
went to church, they all came home and they
came to our house and and I wanted to get
really I'm like okay.
So I re, while I was sitting in church, I
(36:00):
remapped out your whole plan.
Right, and you can go as far as one state
away.
You know, and and I'm like here it all is.
And my husband's like no, no, rewind, let's
give them limits.
And the other parents were all on board.
They're like we understand, we'll sign a
liability waiver for them driving in the
car.
(36:22):
And so my husband's like step back, here's
the limits, kids.
I'm like thank you, Because I was ready to
take over the whole trip.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
And almost go with them.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I was going to go with him on the trip and
he's like no, no, no, here's the limits.
No one else can drive your car, which means
therefore, therefore, uh, your drives have
to be short, and maybe the first one is
long, because you already have a place to
stay with us, with an aunt which they uh,
we're going to stay with one aunt, and they
ended up staying with my sister last night,
(36:54):
who I had to call and be like could five
boys crash at your house tonight at 2.
Am you?
Speaker 2 (37:00):
know, right there, that's a latitude Right.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And and so they ended up leaving like at
four 30,.
Got to Utah at two 15 am this morning,
which I was watching, and we're like the
other limit is that we have to have you on
our phone so you have a tracker.
Anyway, it all worked out, but I'll tell
you, I was livid yesterday morning right
(37:26):
before church.
I'm like no, this is not happening.
But my husband had to pull me back and be
like, okay, here are your limits, work
within the limits.
And they ended up planning a really fun
trip.
And then they said last night they're like
my son said at two o'clock in the morning
when I called him, he's like I'm really
glad that we ended up deciding to make it
shorter driving time, because we realized
(37:48):
on our drive that we want to have time to
do things at the places that we're at.
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You're welcome, anyway, so sorry, long
story, it's the idea that and, and you know,
your husband's advice was good but hard,
which is let them figure out some of that
stuff.
That's part of that journey.
We could easily have jumped in and mapped
everything out exactly and would have been
a great plan, but part of that learning
(38:22):
comes from them having kind of that, those
limits and structure, but they figure out
the messiness in the middle.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
I love it.
I love it.
What, uh, last bit of advice would you give
to parents who are homeschooling or they're
feeling like, okay, I need something
different as far as maybe I don't public
school my kids, or maybe I do a current,
current enrollment, or like, what advice
would you give those parents trying to
tailor the child's education?
(38:50):
Would you give those parents trying to
tailor the child's education which they're
not used to?
What would you give to those parents?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Short answer is start small.
Okay, trust your instincts, uh, and, and
just see if you can move a little bit
towards open education in one area.
(39:16):
So don't don't try to hold wholesale change
everything in one day, even though you
might think you want to just just know that
you can start small.
Identify, maybe there's.
There's an extra enrichment experience I
can add to my child to, to expand one step
further something that they really are
(39:37):
passionate about.
So, uh, look for, listen and look for those
things that you could maybe add or enhance,
uh, in the and.
The other thing is start maybe with a
hybrid model where they stay home for a
couple hours of a traditional public school
setting and do and have some autonomy over
that time at home.
(39:58):
Starting with just little baby steps is
probably going to help you gain a little
bit more confidence than just scrapping
everything and trying to build it from
scratch.
So that's what I would say is start small
and engage with people who have done there
and experienced some of that.
Engage with Janae, engage with your
(40:20):
community, find ways to connect with others
who are doing it and you can learn from
them.
That's a great way to start.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I love it For those interested in reading
the book.
The book is Open Education.
Again, it's how to Reimagine Learning,
ignite Curiosity and Prepare your Kids for
Success.
By Matt Bowman and Isaac Morehouse, and I
will put links to the book so that people
can check this out.
It was so good.
(40:50):
It's a great book for those of you,
particularly who are new to this concept of,
like, okay, public school isn't working, so
what else could I do?
What are some other options?
And I'm also going to put a link for open
ed for those interested in learning more
about the open ed program if it's in your
state and it sounds like it's being rolled
(41:11):
out nationally through private pay Yep.
I love it.
I love it, Matt.
Thank you so much for taking the time today
coming on and speaking with us about open
education and sharing your insight.
It has been such a pleasure, so thank you.
Book just came out in May.
Check it out.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thanks, janae, and likewise keep up the
great work.
You're advocating for families to take a
leadership role in their child's education,
and that's what we all want done.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Thank you, it's true.
So I appreciate you coming on.
Mamas and papas, grandmas and grandpas, you
are doing so much better than you think you
are.
You got this.
We'll talk next week.
Hello my friends and welcome back.
I'm so excited to have Matt Bowman today.
He is the founder, with his wife, of OpenEd,
formerly known as MyTechHigh.
Opened is in several states.
But a little bit more about Matt.
He is an innovator in education and
technology and is deeply dedicated in
(00:21):
transforming the way children learn.
He and his wife, amy, co-founded OpenEd
together, and the Bowmans have spent over
three decades championing personalized
education, combining cutting-edge
technology with an entrepreneurial spirit
to help students thrive in a rapidly
changing world.
He also has five children, all who are
(00:44):
married, and four grandchildren, so you've
been around the block a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, I have Janae, Great to be here with
you today.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Thank you for coming, and today we're going
to be talking a little bit about open
education and his new book that just came
out Open Education how to Reimagine
Learning, ignite Curiosity and Prepare your
Kids for Success.
So I'm super excited to have you today to
talk about everything.
So let's get started.
First of all, how did you get interested in
(01:15):
the topic of education in the first place?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it goes back to my mom.
My mom was a high school teacher and so I
really have education in my blood and I
actually started my first education company
when I was 17.
I ran a summer camp for kids teaching them
sports something I love and so I realized
early on how much I love kids and love
(01:39):
teaching and love helping kids learn stuff,
and so that was really the foundation.
I then got my degree in elementary
education and taught sixth grade up in
Washington State and just loved it and it
was just super exciting I love the light
bulbs that go on.
But then I started seeing the system just
not really be flexible enough for the
(02:01):
diverse needs of kids.
I ended up getting a grant to bring this
new thing called the internet into my
classroom in 1996, janae, so that was a
long, long time ago and the very start of
online learning.
I was there from the beginning and I saw
what that allowed for in terms of flexible
(02:21):
education models for kids.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So then let's transition.
What happened with that transition, like,
how did you then jump from I'm a teacher
and I've got the internet?
Then what happened?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So then I actually left the classroom.
I got a job offer from a tech company to
run their online education programs
globally, and so I jumped into the high
tech industry and loved it.
I was there for 13 years and during that
time we were raising our five children all
in the same house, the exact house with the
same routines and expectations, and you
(03:00):
know cadences and family nights, and
everything was just, you know, the same.
And all five children were different.
And we started realizing that, oh, I wonder
if their education ought to be customized
and figure out each a solution for each
child, for their education.
So that's what started those wheels turning.
(03:21):
Our oldest ended up wanting to go to a
charter school.
That was brand new and something that no
one did in our area.
So we said, sure, ended up wanting to go to
a charter school.
That was brand new and something that no
one did in our area.
So we said, sure, if he wants to go there,
let's go there.
And we got criticized and attacked for
giving up on the local district school.
And we weren't anti-public school at all,
we were very much supporters of just
(03:41):
finding the right school for each of our
children.
So all five of our kids ended up doing
something very different along the way from
each other, and we thought I wonder if
other families are experiencing the same
feeling that their kids are all different
and maybe their education design needs to
be different.
And so that's what led us to start
(04:01):
MyTechHigh back in the day and now called
OpenEd.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I love it.
Now, how old was your oldest at the time
when he was like I want to go to a charter
school?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Twelve.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Okay, so he's, I mean Still young.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, we gave him a voice, though that's
one of the chapters in the book is give
your child a voice.
And we were criticized by others that said,
oh, you should step in as the adult and do
what you know is right.
We're like, well, our son is asking to go
to this charter school and he's excited
about it.
(04:36):
Let's honor that voice, and so that's
something we really believe in.
We ended up then every year asking our
children each summer hey, what would you
like your education to be this fall?
And having conversations all the way down
to the seven or eight year olds, right, and
at least listening to them and hearing what
they valued or cared about helped us then
(04:59):
say, well, we can design this, we can have
you do this, we can do a hybrid, we can do
you know part whatever.
And that conversation in and of itself is
valuable, even if you just intentionally
and appropriately choose your boundary
district school.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I never say there's anything wrong with
that, just intentionally choose that if
you're going to yes, well, and I think it's
scary as a parent when we've been so
conditioned that this is how we do things
and this is the expectation of a child to
allow the children to actually have freedom
and have a voice to say something.
There's something very terrifying.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
It's terrifying, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What if they choose video games?
I hear that all the time they're going to
play video games the whole day.
That's what they'll choose, and I'm like
you'd be surprised.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You know that's a great answer, janae is
that people people who, kids who have been
in a highly structured kind of intense test
prep environment, that's their natural out
because they're they're they're so
unengaged by learning.
Once they get over that and have some detox
time and be able to reignite the joy of
learning, they want to learn stuff, they
(06:11):
are interested in learning.
It's a fun experience and it's really that
fear of they'll just play video games all
day is because they have been too
structured in that environment and not
given enough freedom or voice in what they
choose to learn.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It's true, it's true.
So how did this play out with your kids
then over the years?
Because you had the first one.
First one goes to a charter school.
What was his experience with the charter
school?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
He loved it.
Our second.
Then we said, okay, we're, we're all in in
this charter school, right, that was our
thought when the old and it started at
seventh grade.
And so all of our kids, when they turn in
seventh grade, they're all gonna start
going to this charter school.
We're gonna all in with the family.
So our second went and he enjoyed it.
He had a great time.
(06:57):
Our third one went when he got to seventh
grade, went for a year and said no way,
that is not for me, I'm out.
And we thought to ourselves no, you know,
this is what we're going to be doing.
And then we realized, okay, the third's out,
you know.
And then it's that guilty feeling like,
well, why are we keeping the other two in
(07:17):
if it's not a good fit for the third?
Right.
And people say, oh, you see that it's not
good because your third didn't choose it.
Well, no, it wasn't good for him, right.
And so then we had, I think at the time,
five kids in four different schools, right.
And so you can.
And then it's just becomes carpool
management, right.
And so our third said no, I'm never going
(07:39):
there again.
I'm never going there again.
And so then our fourth came and she's like
I don't want to go there either.
I want to follow my brother who went back
to his district school.
And then the third did, the fifth did the
same.
So we ended up two of ours ended up
graduating from that charter school went
all seventh through 12th grade.
The other ones went a mix of of online and
(08:02):
district school kind of hybrid models, mix
of of online and district school kind of
hybrid models.
Our fifth, finally, finally, after all
these years, said I want to just completely
do stuff flexible.
So she ended up doing her associate degree
online at home in the mornings, going at
lunchtime to her district school with her
friends, stayed for a release time seminary
(08:23):
program and then a ceramics class, and she
was a three-sport athlete.
So it was funny, though, janae, no one knew
that she wasn't there in the mornings,
right I mean because, like these kids are
barely you know, they're waking up by noon,
they're going to lunch, and they just
thought they weren't in the same class that
she had that morning, whatever, right.
(08:44):
So she had zero, like people didn't even
know.
So she was just fully integrated into her
high school experience with sports and
dances and whatever, but she did her
associate degree, she did her schooling in
the mornings and then went and hung out at
the school from in the afternoons and did
her sports practices and would come home at
six, have no homework and have no stress
(09:06):
because she just did her schooling in the
mornings and it was just such a fun time
for us.
She ended up hanging out with us more than
her friends because they were all just
stressed out about college prep and tests
and studying and she ended up getting her
associate degree and was very low stress.
It was really exciting to see.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I love that.
So then, how many of your kids decided to
go on and do either college or tech school
or entrepreneur, like what?
What happened with the kids then at that
point?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah.
So at the time our four we got our four
oldest all decided they wanted to go to BYU.
At the time our four oldest all decided
they wanted to go to BYU and so they all
got into BYU and then only two stayed and
one of those two reluctantly stayed right
just because he wanted to be a teacher and
he was already through the path and it was,
(10:00):
you know, to get his license.
So we say go to college if it answers your
why.
And so we say go to college if it answers
your why, if you have to go there for a
license for you know, any type of college,
a trade school or an academic university,
whatever gets you your license or your why.
But then two of the kids were there and
(10:20):
just was not the right fit for them and
they ended up doing a competency-based
online degree, one through our partner with
Southern New Hampshire, which is fantastic,
and another one through Western Governors
and and so those two finished online
degrees and we didn't say they needed to or
whatever, they just chose to wrap that up
online.
(10:41):
The youngest then finished her associate
degree and then went on LDS mission and
came home and said I'm never going to
college again, I just want to work and
learn and start, you know, explore my own
business pursuits and that kind of stuff.
So but then, with that said, two of our two
of our children, our first and third,
(11:01):
became public school teachers.
So they currently work as public school
teachers and we always said that's great,
you'll always have to be an entrepreneur on
the side.
That's a given you you work 180 days and
you're done at two, you know three o'clock
or three, 30.
And you probably need to come up with some
sort of entrepreneurial pursuit on the side
in the summers and after school.
(11:22):
And they have and so they enjoy having a
kind of a steady experience with teaching
and then having entrepreneurship side
businesses and I think that's great.
That's what I did.
I was a sixth grade teacher.
One year I had seven different jobs I was
doing when, when school started in August,
just to make ends meet, my wife stayed home
with our kids and and anyway it was a lot
(11:43):
of fun.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's so fun.
So at that point, because I mean, obviously
your kids all took very, very, very
different paths, did that play into
developing my tech high, or was that
happening simultaneously?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It was all happening at the same time.
So our kids I think our oldest was 14 or 15
when we started open ed, so our kids were
from 15 down to, you know, eight or
whatever.
During that time when we started and we
just started realizing and you'd appreciate
this we started seeing what families were
(12:20):
doing in our program, the custom designs
they were doing for their children.
My wife and I turned to each other.
Well, we should start doing some of that
for our kids.
We learned from the parents that we were
actually enrolling in our program so our
kids benefited from the many parents who
were the pioneers of our program to help
(12:41):
really see what's possible.
When you take off kind of those shackles of
a structure and just design for kids, it's
amazing what can happen.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I love that.
No, because one of the things I read in the
book is that initially you set up open ed
for like 16, 17 year olds and then that
shifted.
Talk about that.
That a little bit.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah.
So our first, you know, business plan that
we wrote down was, you know, this was 2009.
So there was a lot in the tech world and,
you know, coding was a big thing and tech
founders were, you know, turning businesses
into billion dollar valuations and and we
thought, know, turning businesses into
(13:23):
billion dollar valuations?
And and we thought, oh, let's just start a
kind of a tech incubator.
That was our original design.
Let's get 16 or 17 year olds to start
businesses and we can turn them into tech,
you know, gurus and startups and be on
Fortune and Inc and whatever, right.
So that was the idea at the time and it was
legit, like I thought we could really do
that.
Our first year, the average age was nine
(13:44):
years old and so we said, oh, wow, that's a
little young to start having them.
You know, go look for investments or start
coding or whatever.
And so I I did my best those for a few
first few years chatting with the 16 or 17
year olds sharing this vision, because I
(14:04):
thought, OK, we have a small subset, but
let's do it.
And at the time I couldn't get any of their
attention except for ACT, sat prep, early
college, what's my credit?
What's my?
What's my transcripts going to look like
when am I going to go to call it?
That was the only conversation those kids
(14:25):
could have and I realized I turned to the
10 to 14-year-olds, which is where I taught
sixth grade, and I thought, oh, I wonder if
they're interested and they were so eager
to.
We had 10-year-olds starting businesses and
running fun stuff and we would seed them
with some money and highlight them with
business plans.
And they were just.
(14:46):
They couldn't get enough of what we were
feeding them in terms of entrepreneurship,
innovation, creativity, build your own
games, build your own websites, like that.
That was just so fun for them, but they
weren't ready to become you know ink
entrepreneurs fun for them, but they
weren't ready to become you know ink
entrepreneurs.
And so we kind of gave up and pivoted and
(15:06):
said we're going to put all this energy
into the 10 to 14 year old.
And still today, like our average age, I
think, is nine or 10 across you know, tens
of thousands of families over the years and
it's super interesting to see that age
group.
And it was funny because my master's degree
in education, my focus, was the 10 to 14
(15:29):
year old forgotten child, because we often
don't.
We clump them in as high schoolers or we
clump them in as elementary kids and
they're just not.
They're just this middle age group that is
so fun, so much energy.
They're so different from each other that
it's just stark revelation that they aren't
all the same.
Like the 10 year old to the 14 year old,
they could all be exactly the
(15:50):
developmentally normal.
And one is six, four and the other is four,
six and the other's one's shaving and one's
never even seen a hair on his face right,
and so they're so different from each other
and yet we think a public system can assess
and test and educate them exactly the same.
(16:11):
You know and talk about the difference
between boys and girls.
At that age Girls are just so much more
mature, typically, and just feel so much
more grown up than some of the their peer
boys that are just so different from each
other.
And we think they should all be exact same
reading level, the same month and date.
(16:31):
Like it makes zero sense developmentally.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well, yeah, and then, and then you throw in
and you're going to read this material that
some person decided was interesting for you,
and the boys are like what?
Not interested yeah not not reading that,
and so it's true.
So so for those of, for for my listeners,
can you explain what Open Ed is?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
So Open Ed is a program where that helps
families chart their own course in their
education plan.
So it taps into the.
We partner with public schools so we bring
the resources and and dollars and funding
to the family underneath an approved
program by the district.
So it's a district partner program.
(17:18):
They have teachers, curriculum, technology
all provided as part of the family.
There's no cost to the family to
participate in that district partner
program.
So that's one category of Open Ed.
The other one that we're and that's
available in seven or eight states this
fall.
The other category is Open Ed Academy,
(17:39):
which we're excited to launch this fall,
which is a private pay model for people who
live in states where we don't operate.
So it's out of pocket but it embraces still
the personalized education mantra which is
take from all of our resources that we have
curated, tap into them, see if it helps
your family.
(18:00):
We've brought the cost down as low as
possible.
It's $2,900 for K-8 private schooling.
It is super affordable and is accredited so
you can go all the way through high school.
If you want get an official diploma, you
can also.
Then we have an early college option for
$5,000 a year where you can get your
associate or bachelor's degree through our
(18:22):
partner program, and so we just want to
give all those options available to both
the district program model and the private
pay model, to the world.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I love it, and with your college program
you partner with other universities.
Is that correct, correct?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Southern New Hampshire University is one
that I tout because it's really the only
one that I have found in the world that
does competency-based, project-based
programs, and it's interdisciplinary, which
is also really innovative, like the layers
of innovation they've done.
(18:59):
No one else has matched In terms of there's
not math, english, history, science.
It's an integrated project that
incorporates all the subjects into one and
it's a mastered or not yet rubric grading
model.
So you submit your project and you get four
of the things mastered and two of them not,
yet you work on your not yet submit that
(19:20):
get the credit when you're done with your
you know all your not yets.
Instead of waiting for a semester to get
your credit, you can just, if you're
competent, demonstrate it and move on,
instead of just rehashing all semester
until you can get the credit.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, well, and I love that.
And that's something that I noticed when we
started homeschooling with our kids, at how
fast some of my kids went through certain
things.
And and I remember my now 18 year old son
at the time he was 13 when we started
homeschooling and we did, he went through
his math, his math program and he, he came
(19:59):
out one day he's like when we very first
started and he said, mom, it literally took
me 45 minutes to go through three weeks
worth of math that I would have done in the
public school.
Yeah, and I said it's true.
And then I have one child who math just I
mean as an example, it really struggles
with math and so it takes her a little bit
(20:20):
longer.
And yet in a traditional system they can't.
They will stick with what the teacher is
doing and when the teacher is doing it, and
I love that.
New Hampshire university is um Southern New
Hampshire, is that right?
Southern?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
New.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Hampshire, you know, does that that where
it's okay, you got done.
So you got done, which I noticed.
We did open ed, our first year of
homeschooling, as our enrichment program,
which is in the state of Colorado, how it
was set up, which I think it's still the
same way now, and my son was like you mean,
I can zip through these projects on my pace
(20:54):
and I'm like that's what it looks like.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And he loved it, isn't that great.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I also loved that one of my younger
kids was doing Minecraft and wrapping my
head around like a class on Minecraft.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Isn't that great.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Is that allowed?
The public school teacher in me, because I
taught middle school, was like can we do
that?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Right, so I love it.
Our book is scattered with references to
Lego and Minecraft.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, and that's what I noticed the
co-author, isaac, of the book, talked about
that that he would zip through his
homeschooling and then spend all this time
doing Legos, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's so true, and even one of his stories
of his own son.
They tried every parental tactic under the
sun to get him to do math and he just would
not, he just didn't.
And it wasn't until he was 13 years old
that this son wanted to go to some program,
(21:58):
some co-op or something, and it required
him to take a math test to be a grade level.
And he wanted that class so much, with his
friends or whatever, that he spent a summer
starting at kindergarten.
He's a 13-year-old and said I'm just going
to start at kindergarten math.
(22:18):
And he built his way up in a matter of
weeks.
He went through 13 years, you know, or
whatever, like seven grade levels of math
facts and he was able to pass the test and
get in.
Like that.
That's the concept of when you're ready,
when a learner's ready, learning can stick.
Yeah, we think that we're teaching kids
(22:40):
just by imposing standards on them every
year and that doesn't mean learning is
sticky.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
No, no, not at all.
And well, and I think, I think it's true
that, like for for children, every child
develops differently and they, as you
mentioned earlier with the 10 to 14 year
olds, some of these, I have a 13 year old
who still wears size eight clothes.
He's like in kids clothes and he's tiny,
right Um.
But they, they grow physically, they grow
(23:08):
differently.
Why do we think that emotionally and
academically they're all going to grow
exactly at the same pace?
I taught, like you.
I taught six, seventh and eight.
Well, I taught six, seventh and eighth and
I was always, I was shocked, you know,
watching my seventh graders where they were
so tiny and then the boys would come back
(23:28):
into eighth grade over the summer and they
had grown to six feet and and yet
emotionally they weren't there yet, you
know like.
But the girls were, you know, so tall by
sixth grade that emotionally they were more
like 14-year-old.
You know like, but yeah, but yet we expect
(23:49):
that our kids are going to emotionally grow
the same.
But it's true, it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I don't know how anyone concluded
that was logical.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Right?
Well, it was nefarious, as you know, in the
first place.
So thank you, Horace Mann.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Well, it was really around efficiency and
control, not learning.
So I mean, at the end of the day, that is,
we have to acknowledge that that's what the
system was to do.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Right, which and I love, and I love that
you bring that up in the book that that
Horace Mann was like okay, the Prussian
model is efficient, that'll get us.
That'll get us the book that that horace
man was like okay, the prussian model is
efficient, that'll get us.
That'll get us the results that we need,
which was not minds that are thinking
correct ever, not ever, yep so let's talk
about.
Uh, how did you, when and how did you
decide to write open ed?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
so open education yeah, so key distinction
there.
So open education is the broad category,
open ed the company and program just is one
sliver of open education, gotcha.
And so just wanted to be clear about that.
A couple years ago, you know, my wife and I
well, it probably goes back to COVID so we
were growing every year in our program.
(24:56):
We've been doing it since 2009.
So this is our 16th year and we were
growing great and all of a sudden, covid
hits and you can imagine just our and I've
read your story of just you know that was
where things changed for you and your
family and that happened for so many.
And yet they were telling us that they
(25:16):
would only come in, they were only going to
do this for a year until things got back to
normal.
And then the second year, in 2021, they
stayed again and said okay, one more year.
This is kind of cool.
Like I'm kind of liking this, I'm going to
go back, I'm going to go back.
And so we didn't know how to manage our
business.
Like it was just chaotic during those
(25:37):
couple of years.
And then all of a sudden, 22 and 23,
everybody was just stayed and our
enrollment just grew and grew and grew.
So then it kind of outpaced what we were
able to manage, my wife and I.
And so in 2023 and 24, we said, okay, it's
time to hire people that know how to run a
(25:57):
business.
You know we're very much educators and you
know passionate parents.
But we needed some help and so I stepped
down as CEO last last summer.
So July 1st is the anniversary of our new
CEO, which is Isaac Incredible guy,
incredible visionary, incredible business
manager, leader, just to his core.
(26:19):
So we are so thrilled to have Isaac be our
CEO, and so, as part of that, we said, okay,
we need to start, we need to.
Just, he said, first thing, you got to
write down everything.
You got to write down your story, your,
your philosophy, your mindset, right, all
that down.
And so we had started writing some of that
(26:40):
down last year early, but he kind of helped
us accelerate that, get it all into the
book, and I honestly just could not be more
happy with how the book turned out.
It's everything that my wife and I have
tried, failed, tried, succeeded.
Like it's not coming from a standpoint of
expertise, it's coming from hey, this is
(27:02):
what we tried.
These are the things that we've learned for
ourselves and our children as well as now,
collectively over a hundred thousand
enrollments over those years.
Like we've seen it work and so we can stand
from a point of confidence.
Hey, family, you're not alone.
The fears you have are real, the
insecurities are real, but guess what you
(27:23):
can do it?
You can absolutely help your children
thrive, and we put in the book just
tactical ways to do that.
So that's how it turned out and really it's
just, it's our life's work in one place and
now that's done.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Well, and I love it and I do.
I love that you give.
I think we learn best through our failures,
yeah, but yet in the education system,
you're not allowed to fail, you can't fail.
Yeah, failure is bad, right, you're not
allowed to fail.
You can't fail.
Failure is bad, right, failure is bad.
It's not an option, but yet that's how.
That's how the greatest minds who have ever
done anything have learned was through the
failure, and so I I appreciated the, the
(28:03):
different case studies and granted, they
were your personal case studies um that you
gave and and the um the reassurance that
you give to parents, that that it's to
parents, that it's okay, and some of the
backlash that you're going to get.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, it's a little bit messy.
We like the phrase learning out loud.
That's what we're doing as we're writing
and reading.
But give yourself some grace.
Give yourself some attempts to just do
things wrong and do things right.
Your children will benefit from that
process, that journey.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I love that.
What were some of your fears like,
especially as your kids were growing up and
you're doing a different education model
for all of them?
What were some of the fears that you and AB
experienced?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
They're the fears that every parent
experiences, which is what if I mess up my
kid right?
What if I close the door that we wish would
have been opened, or whatever?
And so those were real emotions we were
dealing with, and, as it turns out, a lot
of those fears and insecurities are
(29:16):
misplaced.
When you invest in your children's love of
learning and passion around pursuing things
of interest, the opposite happens they
become more self-reliant, they become more
resilient, they become more determined to
learn things that they're interested in,
and then that learning by itself lets them
(29:39):
navigate work learning or school learning
or whatever, in a way that's better from
someone who has just always been told
exactly what they have to do.
That that shift from I just follow
instructions to I want to take charge of my
life and my learning is so amazing and so
(30:01):
rewarding to see in children as they become
adults that they, they've got this, they,
they have confidence in themselves to
figure it out, instead of always turning to
someone else to guide to, to make that path,
you know, forced upon them.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I love that.
Let's talk a little bit about um, how you
started integrating.
Um, we are eclectic unschoolers.
Um, we're not radical unschoolers.
I'm not one of those that's like figure
everything out on your own.
You want to learn to read well Like figure
everything out on your own, you want to
learn to read Well.
Good for you.
You know like I'm not helping.
Good luck with that.
You know I expect my kids to be able to
(30:40):
read well, write well and do math, and so
I'm like I need help in those areas.
So I will employ a curriculum when I need
to Right.
But yet otherwise we do unschooling and
passion driven learning or child learning,
and I noticed that that that was something
(31:00):
that you that you brought into open ed,
both on the business side with with that,
and you talk about it a little bit in the
book.
Can you talk about how you integrate that a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah for sure.
And pointing out that our by design the O
in open ed in our program, by design our
parentheses, not a closed O, and the
concept of that is boundaries and some
structure, is actually liberating.
(31:34):
When it's nothing, when there's no,
anything that's actually can be
overwhelming and and defeating.
And so if you can provide some structure,
some brackets and fill in the blank in the
middle, that's really the best of of all
the worlds.
And so that's where I'd start is don't fear
that having some structure is anti-open ed
(31:59):
or anti-open education like or
anti-customizing for your child, like
having some brackets is powerful.
We also one of the chapters.
I bring up a phrase that I learned many
years ago from a research article love,
limits and latitude.
Those three are a parental strategy, not
(32:20):
just around education, but it applies very
well.
Fill your children with lots of love.
At the same time, give them limits and then
at the same time acknowledge latitude.
That has to occur when things are a little
bit confusing, messy, different.
You can't always just stick with the limits,
(32:42):
because sometimes those limits don't make
sense and you have to adjust.
And so this balance of love, limits and
latitude is, that's a forever quest of
parenting, is trying to figure out what the
right balance and you mentioned, you know
we chatted before uh, parenting 20
something year olds is really challenging
(33:05):
and it's because those three elements of
love, limits and latitude are all are all
different.
And you know, on on, not that you're
imposing rules on them, but the limits you
have in what you advise or what you give,
or you know, you have all this love but you
got to have some limits.
And then you have some latitude that might
(33:25):
not be the exactly the same for every child
and that's just so hard to navigate.
And we're going through that, you know, as
we speak.
So it's kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, and it is, and it is challenging
because I found, even with adult kids, I'm
like, would you mind if I share some advice,
you know?
Because because for them one of the limits,
is I don't I don't want unsolicited advice
from you.
You know like I will, you can share on my
terms and and so, navigating the adult
children, I'm still going.
(33:54):
Oh, my goodness, no, we had.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
We had to basically say look, we have lots
of advice, lots of experience that we are
happy to share, but I need to hear the
words hey, mom or dad, I'd like your advice
on this topic.
If I don't hear that, I'm going to.
I'm going to want to share, but I'm going
to respect that you don't want it until you
ask that question.
(34:17):
So it's tough.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
It's true.
So yesterday in the Daniels family our
18-year-old had planned with his four best
friends, who one is about to graduate and
the others have graduated, and some were
public schooled and some were homeschooled,
and anyway they've they planned a road trip
(34:38):
and we found out yesterday morning.
They were planning on leaving yesterday
afternoon and yesterday morning they're
like these are our plans and I'd kind of
like kept a little bit of a pulse on their
plans.
They're like we're going to drive for 10
hours every day for six, for six days.
We're going to stop at places and then, uh,
(35:00):
do something and then sleep and then drive
another 10 hours.
And we're like well, one of the
stipulations is no one else can drive our
son's car for for liability reasons.
Well, we didn't find out about this.
10 hours of driving every day, like they
told us, like this is where we're going to
go.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Right the general plan.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
The general plan.
And then yesterday morning our son is like
here it is.
And we're like no, no, no, no, no, no, you
are not driving to the coast of Oregon in
California 10, to the coast of Oregon and
California 10 hours Anyway.
So so my, my husband's, like you're not
going like this is like if that's the plan
(35:40):
which you didn't give us until this morning
and, by the way, you're leaving on father's
day, what the heck you know?
Um, so so the friends all came, they all
went to church, they all came home and they
came to our house and and I wanted to get
really I'm like okay.
So I re, while I was sitting in church, I
(36:00):
remapped out your whole plan.
Right, and you can go as far as one state
away.
You know, and and I'm like here it all is.
And my husband's like no, no, rewind, let's
give them limits.
And the other parents were all on board.
They're like we understand, we'll sign a
liability waiver for them driving in the
car.
(36:22):
And so my husband's like step back, here's
the limits, kids.
I'm like thank you, Because I was ready to
take over the whole trip.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
And almost go with them.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I was going to go with him on the trip and
he's like no, no, no, here's the limits.
No one else can drive your car, which means
therefore, therefore, uh, your drives have
to be short, and maybe the first one is
long, because you already have a place to
stay with us, with an aunt which they uh,
we're going to stay with one aunt, and they
ended up staying with my sister last night,
(36:54):
who I had to call and be like could five
boys crash at your house tonight at 2.
Am you?
Speaker 2 (37:00):
know, right there, that's a latitude Right.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And and so they ended up leaving like at
four 30,.
Got to Utah at two 15 am this morning,
which I was watching, and we're like the
other limit is that we have to have you on
our phone so you have a tracker.
Anyway, it all worked out, but I'll tell
you, I was livid yesterday morning right
(37:26):
before church.
I'm like no, this is not happening.
But my husband had to pull me back and be
like, okay, here are your limits, work
within the limits.
And they ended up planning a really fun
trip.
And then they said last night they're like
my son said at two o'clock in the morning
when I called him, he's like I'm really
glad that we ended up deciding to make it
shorter driving time, because we realized
(37:48):
on our drive that we want to have time to
do things at the places that we're at.
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You're welcome, anyway, so sorry, long
story, it's the idea that and, and you know,
your husband's advice was good but hard,
which is let them figure out some of that
stuff.
That's part of that journey.
We could easily have jumped in and mapped
everything out exactly and would have been
a great plan, but part of that learning
(38:22):
comes from them having kind of that, those
limits and structure, but they figure out
the messiness in the middle.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
I love it.
I love it.
What, uh, last bit of advice would you give
to parents who are homeschooling or they're
feeling like, okay, I need something
different as far as maybe I don't public
school my kids, or maybe I do a current,
current enrollment, or like, what advice
would you give those parents trying to
tailor the child's education?
(38:50):
Would you give those parents trying to
tailor the child's education which they're
not used to?
What would you give to those parents?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Short answer is start small.
Okay, trust your instincts, uh, and, and
just see if you can move a little bit
towards open education in one area.
(39:16):
So don't don't try to hold wholesale change
everything in one day, even though you
might think you want to just just know that
you can start small.
Identify, maybe there's.
There's an extra enrichment experience I
can add to my child to, to expand one step
further something that they really are
(39:37):
passionate about.
So, uh, look for, listen and look for those
things that you could maybe add or enhance,
uh, in the and.
The other thing is start maybe with a
hybrid model where they stay home for a
couple hours of a traditional public school
setting and do and have some autonomy over
that time at home.
(39:58):
Starting with just little baby steps is
probably going to help you gain a little
bit more confidence than just scrapping
everything and trying to build it from
scratch.
So that's what I would say is start small
and engage with people who have done there
and experienced some of that.
Engage with Janae, engage with your
(40:20):
community, find ways to connect with others
who are doing it and you can learn from
them.
That's a great way to start.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I love it For those interested in reading
the book.
The book is Open Education.
Again, it's how to Reimagine Learning,
ignite Curiosity and Prepare your Kids for
Success.
By Matt Bowman and Isaac Morehouse, and I
will put links to the book so that people
can check this out.
It was so good.
(40:50):
It's a great book for those of you,
particularly who are new to this concept of,
like, okay, public school isn't working, so
what else could I do?
What are some other options?
And I'm also going to put a link for open
ed for those interested in learning more
about the open ed program if it's in your
state and it sounds like it's being rolled
(41:11):
out nationally through private pay Yep.
I love it.
I love it, Matt.
Thank you so much for taking the time today
coming on and speaking with us about open
education and sharing your insight.
It has been such a pleasure, so thank you.
Book just came out in May.
Check it out.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thanks, janae, and likewise keep up the
great work.
You're advocating for families to take a
leadership role in their child's education,
and that's what we all want done.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Thank you, it's true.
So I appreciate you coming on.
Mamas and papas, grandmas and grandpas, you
are doing so much better than you think you
are.
You got this.
We'll talk next week.
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