March 31, 2025 • 72 mins
Nature journaling maestro John Muir Laws shares his profound insights into the timeless practice of nature journaling, a pursuit that stretches back to the days of Leonardo da Vinci. With a charm reminiscent of Mr. Rogers and Bob Ross, John invites us to open our eyes to the world around us, enhancing our observation skills, curiosity, and creative thinking. By practicing deliberate attention, we can build deeper connections with nature and the people we love, enriching our everyday lives with meaning and wonder.
In a fascinating exploration of our cognitive processes, we discuss the concept of distributed cognition and how our brains prioritize specific details over the whole picture. We delve into the surprising caloric burn of chess players due to intense concentration and explore techniques like journaling and note-taking that can amplify our memory retention, extending our cognitive abilities beyond our minds.
Curiosity takes center stage as we uncover the simple yet powerful mantra of "I notice, I wonder, it reminds me of," which acts as a catalyst for engaging with the world. From playful homeschooling adventures with 'home squirrel' to the creative exploration of math through square roots, the episode emphasizes the joy of unexpected learning and playful inquiry. Embracing curiosity, whether through nature, words, or numbers, invites us to linger in the mysteries of life, fostering a more enriched and connected existence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever heard of nature journaling
Y'all?
I had never heard of this until I started
homeschooling and was introduced to John
Muir Law's work, and today he is going to
share with us all about nature journaling.
Now, I have to be honest, it was.
I've interviewed a lot of people and this
was probably one of my favorite interviews
(00:21):
because I felt like I was talking to Mr
Rogers meets Bob Ross, both men of whom I
have a great respect for, and there was
this childlike wonder that just blew me
away.
And so, with that, I want to introduce you
to John Muir Laws.
Now this is going to be divided up into two
(00:42):
parts.
Part one, he's going to be discussing the
tenets of nature journaling and a lot of
other really fascinating things about the
brain, and then in part two, which will
come out next week, he actually physically
shows how he nature journals, which doesn't
make for the most interesting audio track,
(01:05):
but it is on YouTube, so you can watch it
on YouTube, both this and the second part.
Hello and welcome to School, to Homeschool.
I am Janae Daniels.
I'm a wife, a mother of six and a former
middle school teacher turned homeschool mom.
I have kids in their 20s, all the way down
to elementary age and everything in between.
(01:28):
Are you thinking about pulling your kids
from the school system, like I did, but
you're scared to death and don't know what
to do next.
My friends, I felt the same way and you
have come to the right place.
I wanna help your family leave the system
so that you can take the hearts and minds
of your children back.
(01:50):
Hello, my friends, and welcome back.
I am so excited to introduce John.
He goes by Jack Muir Laws.
He is a principal leader and innovator of
the worldwide nature journaling movement.
Jack is a scientist, educator and author
who helps people forge a deeper and a more
personal connection with nature through
keeping illustrated nature journals and
(02:11):
understanding science.
His work intersects science, art and
mindfulness.
Trained as a wildlife biologist and an
associate of the California Academy of
Sciences, he observes the world with
rigorous attention.
He looks for mysteries, plays with ideas
and seeks connections in all he sees
Attention.
Observation, curiosity and creative
(02:33):
thinking are not gifts but skills that grow
with training and deliberate practice.
As an educator and author, Jack teaches
techniques and supports routines that
develop these skills to make them part of
everyday life.
Jack, thank you so much.
It is such an honor to have you here today,
so thank you for coming on and teaching us
(02:53):
about nature journaling I'm so happy to be
here.
This is going to be a lot of fun so, okay,
when I first started homeschooling, I found
your videos on YouTube and was totally
mesmerized and delighted and, quite frankly,
I had never heard of nature journaling, I
had never seen nature journaling.
And then I find out that the whole
(03:14):
homeschooling world knows about it and
somehow I missed it.
But then again, I was new to the
homeschooling world.
So how did you get involved and start
Nature Journal your discovery?
Because you're kind of like the father of
nature journaling.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Oh no, actually I'm not.
I am just a.
I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
There's a whole, there's generations and
generations.
This is something new.
There's generations of people who've been
doing this for a very, very, very long time.
So the idea of taking a notebook and using
(03:50):
it to get your thoughts, your observations,
the connections that you make to explore
mysteries goes way, way, way back da
vinci's notebooks.
It's exactly that same process, but it goes
back even before da vinci and um.
So it's a old school technology which we've
(04:12):
just brought into our modern age.
I think it was forgotten for a little while.
Um, somebody who helped kind of resurrect
it and sort of bring it functionally back
into the attention of a lot of us is a
woman named Claire Walker Leslie.
When I was a kid she wrote this book,
Nature Drawing, a tool for learning, and it
(04:32):
was for me a really foundational book in
developing my own practice.
I actually had been doing my version of it
before I got a hold of her book, but once I
had that in my little pause, like oh, this
is a thing, what fun.
And then I could start looking around at
all sorts of you, start looking at the
(04:52):
notebooks of other people and going like
what are you doing?
Because those notebooks show you how people
are thinking, and then when you start to
play with those strategies, all of a sudden
you're thinking differently.
So it's this incredible lens for changing
how you think and allowing you to kind of
get so much more richness out of any
(05:14):
encounter or observation.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Interesting.
That is so cool.
What have you found have been some of the
benefits for those who do Nature Journal
have been some of the benefits for those
who do Nature Journal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, I would say, first and foremost, it
is a way of paying attention to the world
around us.
Our attention is critically important, I
think of attention is is the fabric of
(05:47):
connection and love.
Wow, I believe that.
Think about your relationship with your
child and how an act of deliberate
attention builds a bridge between their
heart and mind and yours.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's true, which I.
It's interesting because the other day my
my daughter, was trying to talk to me and I
was looking at an email on my phone and
she's like Mom, look at me and the eyeballs,
I want your attention.
And I was like yep, okay, put away my phone
and she's like the phone takes that away
from me and I need your eyeballs.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So humbling, so humbling.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah.
And so often we're saying like you know,
kids these days just on their devices.
Have you seen their parents Guilty Like
where, who's who who could be role modeling
this behavior as they drive to work,
texting, um, or you know, sit there.
Or sit there at their child's recital on
(06:47):
their device, yeah.
Or at the family when you're sitting down
to eat together, out come these devices.
And the devices are divisive.
The devices you see.
Attention is love.
Attention is love.
(07:07):
My working definition of love is sustained,
compassionate attention.
And when you sustain your attention with
another or with a place think about your
spouse, your partner, your child it
profoundly changes you, but it takes work,
but it profoundly changes you and it builds
(07:29):
a deep connection there.
These devices which we now carry in our
pockets are attention pirates.
That's a beautiful way to put it.
They are designed by the world's leading
cognitive psychologists of how to get us
(07:49):
hooked into a platform and how to keep us
there.
They know when to make it whoop.
They know when to make it whoop Right.
They know when to make the screen flash,
when to have a little hepatic buzz in your
hand, when to kind of have a bell or a star.
They know how to feed into our reward
(08:11):
circuits to keep us scrolling.
And you know, you think about it, these
things, you know, but it's free, Like
what's going on with that?
No, free, like what's going on with that?
No, no, it's not free.
What they're doing is they are memorizing
your brain and then they're going to take
(08:31):
that and they sell it to somebody else.
They're commodifying your attention and
they're better at it than we are at
resisting it.
That's true.
Right.
So what this journal is is a way of
reclaiming your attention.
(08:51):
What we do is it is an analog form, without
whip or bop, to kind of sucker you in, and
it allows you to go deeply into the
presence of whatever phenomenon is in front
of you, Whether you're looking out at the
(09:13):
flowers blooming on the redbud, or you're
looking inside of you at.
How does that affect me?
What does that remind me of?
How does that take me back to when I was in
the foothills of the Sierra Nevada with my
mother.
She showed me the flowers of Redbud.
Whatever it is, your attention is something
(09:34):
that you can take back.
You can reclaim it through the pages of a
journal, and what the journal does is
allows you, gives you permission to pay
deep attention, take all your observations,
record them one alongside another, and to
in whatever form comes most naturally to
(09:54):
you.
So some people are more writers, some
people are more drawers, some people are
more quantitative, and so you can start
with whatever mode works best for you.
And so you can start with whatever mode
works best for you and you document and
describe what you are experiencing, and
then you can push yourself a little bit
(10:16):
outside of your comfort bubble, into.
Let's say I'm a writer.
Now I'm going to just challenge myself to
make a map or a diagram or just a few
visual representations of what I'm seeing,
Not so much that it freaks me out, oh no,
Right but but enough so that you're
slightly outside of your comfort zone and
(10:37):
in that space you will notice things that
you otherwise wouldn't have seen just
because you shifted modes.
You otherwise wouldn't have seen just
because you shifted modes.
Interesting and this getting it out of your
head.
You're saying like why can't I just look at
it?
Why can't I just pay attention to it?
Well, it turns out that the human brain
(10:59):
cannot handle complexity.
If you, you know what is 37 multiplied by
146?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Oh, I'd have to do it on paper.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Exactly so.
The paper can actually handle that, because
you're carrying this and you're putting
this down there.
We can't remember that you can remember
seven different things at a time, plus or
minus two.
Well, really just five.
Yeah, Very often like, oh boy, it's going
to be a five day.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, sometimes only a three day.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So.
But the piece of paper can handle the
complexity, and so you get all this stuff
out of your memory, your present
observation, all this stuff down on the
page, and then you can look at it and it
presents back to you this is your
experience in a way that you can perceive
(11:54):
different levels of nuance and wonder that
you actually would not be able to detect if
you're just staring at nature.
And then that's true for the external world
and the internal, If anybody who's
listening to this keeps a diary.
Yeah.
Yeah, guess what?
People who keep diaries?
The research shows they're more emotionally
(12:15):
intelligent than people who don't.
That's good news.
I don't keep a diary, so that tells you a
lot about me, but the research is really
clear on it.
People who keep diaries tend to like learn
from their mistakes and they have
introspection and, um, what the diary does
is for somebody who doesn't have a diary,
(12:36):
let's say they're going through a breakup.
They sit there on their couch pounding
chocolate and ruminating about the same
scene again and again and again, like first
this happened and then that, and then the
part was wonderful, and then this and now
it's gone.
First this and then that it was wonderful,
but then now it's gone.
Like they're just like in this loop until
(12:58):
you come over and you make some tea and you
say, okay, talk to me about it.
And they say, well, first it was wonderful
and then this happened, and then that
happened, and then now it's gone.
And then, once they kind of get that out
and it's in discussion with you, they
actually kind of start to clear away for
the next thought and the next thought.
(13:18):
But when they're sitting there on their
couch, they were in a rumination loop, they
couldn't get out of that and the diary does
that for you.
So the diary says okay, yeah, you already
put that down.
Give me the next thought.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, time to move on.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And and and you're, you're, so you actually
do that for yourself.
So think about that, that kind of
ruminating that you feel like I'm
processing this, but no, you're stuck.
You're stuck until your friend comes over
with the tea or you pull out your piece of
paper so you want to get unstuck and get
(13:53):
out of your head.
You got to call your friend over with the
tea and with, as we're observing, we also
get stuck.
So there's this crazy research where they
had, they put helmets on people that
tracked their eyeball motions and had them
look at works of art and say I want you to
really take this in, like, like, really
(14:13):
study this.
And people go, okay, and so they'd sit in
front of a work of art and they would, you
know, maybe 15 minutes staring at the thing
and you'd ask them, like, so what do you
know?
I'm just, I'm studying the whole.
I'm really kind of taking their subjective
experiences.
They're really letting this in.
And then, when you track their eyeball
motions, they're looking about five
different things again and again and going,
(14:34):
like, look for your survival.
I'm going to make this easier for you, you
don't need to look any harder, just like,
notice these things and then just loop.
And that's easy, because thinking takes
(14:55):
calories, attention takes work, and if your
brain has a way of kind of circumventing
that, it will of kind of circumventing that
it will.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, I love that, but it's true I heard
that chess players like when they're
playing and they're really concentrating
and really thinking that they burn just an
obscene amount of calories because they are
so focused and trying to pay attention to
every little thing.
So it makes sense.
But I think it's fascinating that you said
that our brain just loops it because we
can't handle any more information than that.
Like I was just in an art gallery a couple
of months ago and I'm like, yeah, I would.
It's true, I looked at the exact same spots
(15:33):
over and over over this one picture and I
was like I couldn't tell you.
The rest of the picture, though.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's the sad part, yeah.
And then with that that seven plus or minus
two you then go to the next picture and you
kind of stare at it and your brain's going
like, yep, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And then you go to the next thing and you
go, yep, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And what your brain is doing is you're
kicking out all that other stuff and you're
thinking but it's going to be really logged
in my memory?
No, because that would take work.
(16:00):
And then you ask people about tell me about
the show.
They might tell you about the last couple
of pieces that were in it, because those
were the most recent ones that they saw.
Your brain is wiping away the rest of it.
There's also, like all this weird research
where they're looking at what is the impact
of just the most recent thing in how you
(16:20):
evaluate an experience.
Let's say, you have a terrible time going
to summer camp, but the last day was great.
You come home and you say summer camp was
great.
It's so weird.
Amazing.
There's this.
Here's like twisted things that
psychologists do to graduate students.
Check out this experiment.
(16:41):
They gave people there's this bucket of ice
water.
Have you ever stuck your hand in a bucket
of ice water?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, they had me do that before I had my
first child to practice.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes, yes, they also had the dads do it.
I was there with my wife and we're like
doing the breathing thing.
Right, Put their hand in the bucket of ice
water, oh Right, so check this out.
There were two groups.
One of them they you stick their hand in
(17:11):
the bucket of ice water for three minutes.
This is no fun at all.
And at the end of that three minutes the
water temperature started to get warmer and
because they started to squirt in some warm
water with it and then after another minute
you could take your hand out, but the end
(17:31):
water was not as cold as it was at the
start, but they had a full three minutes of
hand in the ice water.
Then there's this other group of people who
stick their hand in ice water and at the
end of three minutes they say OK, now take
your hand out.
How bad was that experience?
The people who had their hand in the ice
water for three minutes and took it out
(17:51):
right there at the end they say that was
horrible.
It really hurt.
I don't want to do this again.
I don't like your experiment.
But those people who had their hand in the
ice water and then it warmed at the end
they go.
That wasn't that bad right, and their
experience was objectively worse because
they had to have their hand in the cold
water longer.
(18:11):
But their final experiment, their final
experience was like, oh, oh, it got, it was.
It wasn't that bad.
And so you remember the last thing.
So we remember the end of the art exhibit.
We don't remember the things in the middle.
You go to a lecture.
There are all these interesting points and
(18:32):
people kind of like at the end of it you
say, like what really sticks out for you?
People will tell you about one of the ideas
that popped up at the end of the talk.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And so again, how can you get around this?
I just went to a lecture and I journaled
all the way through it and then they turned
down the lights and so I was, I was, I was
trying to dark and kind of like with the
kind of the light of the emergency exit,
trying to see if I could get some notes
down.
You could draw.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
yeah, Love it Then.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I was with a dear friend of mine and at the
end he and I were talking about the content
of the lecture and because I had those
notes I was able to go back to the top,
like this part was really interesting, like
oh yeah, I totally forgot about that and we
both would have forgotten about it if I
hadn't kind of gotten it down on the piece
(19:23):
of paper.
So those pieces of paper kind of.
We think better when we can get our
thinking out of our electric meat between
our ears and onto some what's called sort
of a distributed cognition device.
Right, so when you're journaling or you're
diarying, this is distributed cognition.
(19:46):
We used to think that all our thinking
happened between our ears.
But now we realize that these tools, such
as a as a journal, as a diary, that these
are part of the actual fabric of how we
think, and when we extend our thinking
(20:07):
using these tools, our thinking is better.
The piece of paper makes us more effective
at handling complexity.
Like I'm willing to bet that you and 99.99%
of the listeners have a list somewhere in
their kitchen of the things that you need
(20:27):
to get at the grocery store.
We sure, I sure do.
Isn't it interesting how psychic I am that
I was able to tell that right?
I'm kind of amazed.
It's astounding.
The reason that we all have that is because
it works, and those people who don't have
it get over to the grocery store and end up
binge shopping.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I've done that too, and then I go into
Walmart expecting to buy two things and end
up with about 150 things.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, you get all the things from the end
caps that say look.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I'm blue and then I forget what I came in
for in the first place.
Yeah, that's not right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But if you have the list, then you kind of
go down the list and you check it off and
then bada boom, you've got the things on
your list.
You don't have the things that aren't on
your list.
So you end up you don't fill your pantry up
with that junk, you end up thinking better
because of that list.
That list is part of your distributed
(21:22):
cognition network.
So, just as that list works, like right now,
if I needed to get eggs which I do, and I
was just sitting here through this whole
interview thinking like eggs, eggs, eggs,
eggs, eggs, eggs gotta get the eggs, gotta
get the eggs, gotta get the eggs.
Every time you would ask me a question, I
(21:43):
would be thinking like okay, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and give you kind of part of my brain.
But part of my brain would be like don't
forget the eggs.
Yeah, please remember the eggs.
And then and then, when this, this
conversation, gets really, really
interesting, I'm gonna forget that.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I gotta get the eggs it's so weird how our
brain works.
I mean it's amazing because, like our
brains are are so fascinating, but it's so
weird how our brain works.
I mean it's amazing because, like our
brains are are so fascinating, but it's
crazy because it's true, like even before
we started talking, I had, I had written
down several things that I wanted to talk
to you about, because I'm like I will
forget, I'm going to forget, I'm going to
forget, and if I and I don't want to be
like trying to listen to him and be like
(22:17):
what was like wait, what, what did I, what
did I want to ask?
I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But it's true, blessed are the list makers,
for they shall get things done.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Amen, amen on a Monday.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It is interesting.
So, just for the same reason that all those
lists work, the reason that you've got that
piece of paper in front of you, that's sort
of a microcosm of how um, oh, actually I
got to put something down on my list here.
I just saw a hummingbird come to the empty
(22:53):
hummingbird feeder, so I'm going to put
down fill feeder.
And now.
I can let that thought go and um and, and
the hummingbirds will be okay and our
conversation will be okay too I love it
(23:14):
okay.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So what are the?
Some of the major principles or, like the
major, the major things that we need to
know about nature journaling?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
okay, the the most important thing is that
it is not as tricky or difficult or hard as
you think.
This isn't some complex mystic process.
This is really pretty straightforward.
Yay, and you can do it.
You don't have to be an artist, you don't
have to be a scientist, you don't have to
be a naturalist.
(23:40):
You can absolutely do this thing.
Have to be a scientist.
You don't have to be a naturalist, you can
absolutely do this thing.
You've got everything that it takes to be a
nature journaler.
And you can start today Because I bet,
because of one of those art classes that
you took at some point but then kind of
gave up on, somewhere in your closet is
that box marked art supplies and there's an
(24:01):
old journal in it, a little notebook with a
whole bunch of blank pages, because you're
thinking I should get one of these art
sketchbooks, right.
So you're going to get, just get that thing
out.
That'll work perfectly for this, right?
You've already got the tools.
You don't need any special brush or pen or
pencil.
Get some of your favorite drawing tools,
and what you're going to do is I like to
(24:24):
think of it this way there is the big why,
there is the how and there's the what.
So here's the big why If you pay deeper
attention to the world around you, the
world around you will reveal secrets and
mysteries and beauty that you otherwise
would have missed or forgotten.
(24:46):
This will make your life richer, because it
allows you to reclaim your attention.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's our big why.
So you're doing this for you and the world.
As you do this, you're going to find that
the world opens up to you.
Now let's think about the what Like.
What are you doing?
I like to think of three major categories
of things, and I call this the I notice, I
(25:17):
wonder it reminds me of.
That's my mantra I notice, I wonder it
reminds me of.
I do this when I'm nature journ of.
I do this when I'm nature journaling.
I do this when I'm thinking about a book.
I do this when I am discussing literature
or Shakespeare with my daughter.
I do this when I'm listening to music.
I do this all the time, with everything.
And so I notice.
(25:38):
It's just what do you observe If you
observe it?
If you see something, say something, put it
down on your piece of paper.
That observation, that observation, that
observation.
You get them all out of your head and onto
the piece of paper.
The piece of paper can hold all this stuff.
So get those observations down on the piece
of paper and then it's I notice, I wonder.
(26:04):
So the I wonder is.
I'm going to deliberately trigger my
curiosity, I'm going to get intentionally
curious about what is happening in front of
me.
And when you're curious, everything's a lot
more fun.
Curiosity is really really, really fun and
it's a skill.
Curiosity is really really, really fun and
it's a skill.
The more you practice curiosity, the more
(26:25):
you can make yourself like, let's do some
curiosity.
Right now I can look out at anything and
you can just sort of stare at it.
But if you get yourself kind of curious
about something where you kind of notice
something like, oh, what's up with that,
where you kind of notice something like, oh,
what's up with that, and what you start to
realize is that rabbit holes that you can
(26:46):
fall down are everywhere, and then you're
starting to intentionally like let's look
for some rabbit holes, and it's not to try
to fill them up, but because the goal is,
(27:07):
if you can go spelunking down a rabbit hole,
just dive into it.
You are bathing in curiosity and when
you're curious, this is kind of cool.
Going back to some brain stuff, they found
out that when you're curious, your brain
releases dopamine.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
No kidding.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yep, you want some dopamine.
Get curious, that kind of lean in feeling
that we get when we're curious about
something that is a big slosh of dopamine.
It's a neurotransmitter and in the presence
of this neurotransmitter you're able to
stick with something longer and check this
out.
Your memory of what you were doing goes way,
(27:40):
way, way up, not just for the thing that
caught your curiosity but for all the
related observations that are kind of
circling around that.
Because it's this generally available
neurotransmitter in your brain, it is
improving your memory, not just for the
(28:01):
target of your curiosity, not just for the
target of your curiosity, but for all the
rest of the phenomena that are in the
details that are going on around you.
So your brain works better when you're
curious.
Even if you don't answer these questions
and you will answer some of them, but
you'll probably end up asking many more
questions than you can ever answer in a
lifetime your brain works better when
(28:22):
you're curious and it makes it easier for
you then to get into a flow state.
You know that state where time just
disappears and you just are absorbed in the
wonder of whatever moment is in front of
you.
So, intentionally going for curiosity.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Wow, that's really cool Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
That's really cool it is, it is wonderful
it is.
It feels so good to find a mystery and get
to play with it with your brain.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
It's true, I was talking to my little girl
about that.
We home squirrel a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Tell me more about this home squirrel.
I have to write this down.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I have to write this down.
I didn't coin it.
I saw it on a meme once and, and, and the
meme was really funny.
It said that day that that moment when you
started to learn about water pressure and
somehow ended up on a live game cam
watching a baby owl and then you're
finalizing a falafel recipe, you know like.
But the other day my, my nine-year-old
daughter she's my caboose of my kids and we
(29:32):
started.
She had a question.
She was drawn, okay, she, she wanted to do
this thing for a neighbor child that's
younger than her and she wanted to make a
little fishing pond for them.
So she drew these different fish and then
she drew a jellyfish and and I said, oh,
the jellyfish actually has tentacles,
because she just drew some straight, some
like little cones.
(29:53):
And I said, actually, jellyfish have little,
they have little squiggles.
And she said, well, can we look up
jellyfish on YouTube?
And I said, yes, let's, let's look up it
and use YouTube and learn about jellyfish,
which then they've talked about how
jellyfish are venomous and they can sting
you.
So she said, well, can we look up why
they're?
So then we looked up why they're venomous
and as we're looking at why they're
(30:13):
venomous, we also learned that they
evaporate on the beach.
So then she said what is evaporation?
And I said, well, let's look up evaporation.
So then we went into the life cycle of
water and somehow we ended up learning
about sea turtles, dolphins.
And then we were looking up a recipe about
(30:34):
donuts have no idea where.
Like somehow it took us down all of these
rabbit holes and we looked up about donuts
and we made donuts.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Wow I mean you had me at tentacles, but you
got all the way to donuts.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We got to donuts.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
That is some extra frosting on the whole
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
That is home squirreling at its best.
Home squirreling oh, I love that idea
Anyway.
So I didn't coin the term.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
What you did is you went spelunking, you
got curious and that curiosity pulls you
along.
So you don't have to wait for curiosity to
come to you.
You can go deliberately, do curiosity when
you choose to.
It's like I think I would like some
dopamine right now.
I'm going to go get curious, I love that.
(31:25):
And so then you can use your.
You know either your who, what, where, when,
how, why prompts you can start thinking
about.
You know connections or relationships or
change, or you know other ideas and sort of
(31:45):
see like I'm going to look at this, at this
pomegranate through the lens of structure
function right, like okay, let's see what
happens.
And you can say okay, what questions come
to me?
But you want to.
You want to say like I wonder, I wonder and
what.
You can even say it out loud Like what's
the question here?
What's the question and the first questions
that often come to you are to say like I
wonder, I wonder and what.
You can even say it out loud like what,
what's the question here?
What's the question and the first questions
(32:06):
that often come to you are like little
questions.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Oh, john, are you there?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
oh, john, I've lost you it's still
recording I still I hear you okay, there
you are.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Oh, I I lost you for just a second, but it
it's still recording.
Oh okay.
That was really bizarre.
I've never had that happen before.
Okay, so pomegranate.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Okay, so, yeah, so we're going to rewind,
rewind.
You put this pomegranate in front of you
and you start to say, like who, what, where,
when, how, why?
Hmm gosh, let's find the questions, the
mysteries waiting in the pomegranate.
You know that this pomegranate is filled
with mysteries.
The amount which science has figured out
about pomegranates is the tiniest little
(32:49):
fraction of the wisdom embedded in
pomegranates.
And so let's look at this from the lens of
curiosity what can we ask about this
pomegranate?
And you start digging and usually the first
(33:10):
questions that come to you will be kind of
they'll be little questions, so write those
ones down.
You kind of got to get through those ones
to get to the big juicy ones are the ones
the question that is hiding behind the
question.
If you want to get to the question that is
hiding behind the question, if you want to
get to the question behind the question,
behind the question, and you go several
layers down and the questions get really
(33:31):
interesting.
You often don't even have to answer some of
these questions to get to a richer question
behind it where you can say, like you know,
is that to do this?
Well, and if it is, then why would this be
right?
And so you can play with your curiosity.
All of a sudden the dopamine is sloshing
around in your brain.
You're going to be motivated then to make
(33:52):
observations, to answer some of your
questions.
Sometimes answers are sometimes we'll
Google, search something and you can figure
out some of the answers there.
But very easily Any homeschool kid give
them five minutes and they should be able
(34:12):
to start to come up with questions that
Google has never, never thought of.
It's true, anyone has really kind of gone
down this particular rabbit hole, and here
you are.
There's not going to be a Wikipedia page
for this one.
You don't want to settle for the question.
That is very often.
This is kind of cool.
(34:34):
Very often when we do a search for
something that we're trying to find
information about, well, a couple of things
happen, happen.
We usually stop searching when we get
something that confirms what we already
believe right so that's great.
But there's another thing that happens, and
(34:54):
that is we.
When we cannot find the answer that we're
looking for, we we settle for, we change
our question to be one which we found right.
I went in here trying to find out this
thing and now I know this other thing right,
and it's going to, and that's known.
(35:15):
But instead of just gosh, can I live with
the mystery, can I stay here in this sort
of place of vulnerability where I don't
know the answer, and really embrace that?
That's really, really cool.
So don't change your question to match an
answer you found.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Let curiosity be there and realize that
here is a mystery, even some places.
Sometimes.
What I will do is actually I've got a
nature journal here.
Let me.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yay, I'm excited to see.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So if you're listening, I will describe
what I'm seeing on the nature journal page.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And if you want to watch my friends, you
can watch this episode on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So you, may want to come back and watch it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Oh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I was over on the eastern side of the
Sierra Nevada Beautiful range of mountains,
and I'm going to try to find where I think
this is the right sketchbook Um um look how
gorgeous those notes are.
(36:42):
Why can't I find this?
I'm what are called the Crowley Lake
columns.
I was by the side of Crowley Lake and I
think I'm looking at the wrong journal.
Oh, I don't think this will have the
pictures of Crowley Lake.
So you people who are watching it at home
here or listening on the radio, you don't
(37:05):
have to go scampering over there right now.
So let me bounce back here and just
describe this for you.
Okay, perfect, where a tough a layer of
volcanic ash is being eroded by a lake, an
(37:29):
artificial lake, and where this is
happening as it erodes into this cliff face,
there are these strange columns that are
more resistant than the rest of the matrix
of the surrounding rock, and so it erodes
around these columns, and so you get these
strange vertical columns coming down,
filling these caves.
They're not stalactite stalagmites, they're
(37:51):
really, really, really, really weird.
And I went with my family to Crowley Lake.
We went to the columns and we always were
like what's going on here?
So I started journaling about it, keeping
all these notes, taking in all this data.
Is this petrified wood?
No, is that worth the case?
(38:11):
I would see this Not.
It's a totally different texture.
It's the same kind of ashy matrix.
What's going on with this?
So we're geeking out with these columns and
by the time the day was done, I had several
pages filled with notes about these columns.
Now I could not for the life of me figure
(38:32):
out what's going on with the Crowley Lake
columns.
So then I got back home that evening we
actually were in a little motel, so we got
back there and they had an internet
connection I pulled out my computer and I
typed in Crowley Lake Columns, what forms
them, click, and one of the choices was
that you know, scientists finally figure
(38:53):
out what is causing the Crowley Lake
Columns.
And my finger was heading for the button
getting closer, closer, closer, closer.
And then I stopped and I thought to myself
you know what On the other side of that
click is an answer.
And I know that when I get that, I'm going
to get this feeling of task completion and
(39:18):
my brain might then take this incredible
mystery and chalk that up to something that
I now know and I now can forget about.
Have you ever studied for a test?
And then you take the test and you forget
everything?
Yeah, that's called the Zerganek effect,
and if you Zerganek yourself, you do this
(39:41):
when your brain feels that a task is
complete and then we forget about it.
You know, here I am a long time later
talking about the Crowley Lake columns.
Why?
Because it's still an open loop in my brain.
That is so cool.
So what I often?
sometimes I do look things up- but,
(40:02):
sometimes I let the mystery just hang out
there and I sometimes go to sleep and as
I'm laying there in bed, kind of beginning
to drift off to sleep and I don't count
sheep I'll think about like what could be a
mechanism for causing the Crowley Lake
columns.
So I've got these little kind of puzzles
that could play in my head and you know
(40:26):
that keeps my brain just perking along.
And the world is filled with mysteries.
If you think it's filled with answers,
you're not asking enough questions.
There's mysteries, mysteries everywhere,
and sometimes what I'll do is, when I get
one little mystery answered, what I do then
(40:50):
is I try to kind of open up a new loop on
the other side of it to say can I find some
way of having this new thing that I now
understand?
Help me be able to come up with the next
question that is now going to be my new
open loop.
So that's just kind of a.
That's a whole bunch about this curiosity
(41:11):
thing, but curiosity is so much fun and oh,
my goodness, folks, you've got to go to
Crowley Lake.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Now I'm like I have to go to Crowley Lake
and take a notebook.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And think of, and when you do think of how
tempting it will be to click on that link.
Something that I regularly do with my
daughters is we have this card deck of sort
of mind-bending puzzles and as we eat
breakfast in the morning we'll try to solve
a puzzle or two and we'll get on these
(41:44):
really good ones and the answer is right on
the back of the card.
And something that we like to notice is how
tempting when you can't figure it out how
tempting it is to flip the card and and
find out.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yes, Because it was a surprise though, yeah,
and and and.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
When you do, then it's like, oh, that's it,
oh, okay, and it's just like magic tricks
Everybody wants to know how the trick was
done.
If the magician tells you, you would be
really underwhelmed so don't flip the card
over.
(42:27):
Um, so don't flip the card over.
Let your brain be there in that struggle
and and just sort of celebrate with
yourself, like, isn't it interesting how
much I want to flip that card.
I want the answers.
I don't.
I don't want to be in the process of
puzzling, I want to be, I want the answers.
And so I think we're in a culture that
really loves getting the answers and the
answers, you know, it's just a click away.
(42:47):
Yeah, it's true, but no, let yourself be a
problem solver, play with the mysteries.
Don't jump to the back of the book, don't
flip the card, be there with it, and so
what we'll do is like one person will kind
of get on with it and um, and so what we'll
do is like so one person will will kind of
get onto it and um, sometimes they will
(43:08):
give it like a small hint to to the rest of
us who are stuck, and eventually we'll kind
of all arrive there together, and then we
like to unpack.
Why were we stuck?
What was going on in our thinking that we
could not figure this little, this mind
trap out, this little box of questions?
It's called mind trap.
(43:28):
So we'll sit there with our little box of
mind traps and it is a great way for us to
practice critical thinking and being also
getting comfortable with not knowing stuff.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So, and that's only two of the parts of
kind of what's going on in the nature
journal.
I said there were three things we talked
about.
I noticed and I wonder and then it reminds
me of and then it reminds me of so, and
this is this one is the often the sort of
neglected stepchild of I noticed I wonder
many people do not give.
(44:01):
It reminds me of it's due, and so I want to
unpack with you like why?
Like you can say like okay, I see why
you're asking questions, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
I see why you're making observations, but
what is?
How come it reminds me of?
Why do I care about that?
So what this is about is about creative
(44:24):
thinking.
That's what it reminds me of.
Hook is.
It is creative thinking and I know
creativity is sort of one of these terms
that if you a little thing that you can
dangle above your baby while they're on
their back, right, let's say this will
(44:46):
enhance creativity.
It's just marketing.
It has nothing to do with creativity, so
it's just this overused word.
But here, being a little scientist, I want
to define my terms.
So when I talk about creativity, I say that
creativity is your brain's ability to make
useful connections between seemingly
(45:06):
unrelated things Useful connections between
seemingly unrelated things.
So if you practice finding these
connections and relationships, you will
have a brain that can get really
comfortable at networking ideas Like this
(45:29):
is like that, but not in this way.
It's different, like this and, but it's
similar over here, and this can be as sort
of scientific or or or metaphoric or
playful as you're feeling on that day.
You just want to see, like what is
connecting in your electric meat that, in
(45:49):
one way or another, is going to tap into
this and can be part of the conversation.
Maybe this is something that you learned in
a school, maybe this is something that you
read.
Maybe this is a quote that moves you, maybe
this is an observation that moves you.
Maybe this is an observation that you once
made in frozen ice, because all ice is
frozen right In non-redundant frozen ice
(46:21):
and you want to.
Then you intentionally bring that in and it
helps you look at whatever phenomenon is in
front of you in a slightly different way,
and so what I'm doing is I'm trying to get
as many tools as I can to get my brain to
play with the world and engage in a
different way.
(46:41):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Okay, so we get the object or the thing we
we want to notice, we wonder it reminds me
of, and then we get it on those things on
paper as well.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Right.
So that's, that's that is.
I like to think of it as two triads.
One triad is I notice I wonder it reminds
me of, and this then leads us to, that's
the what.
Then there's the how, and the how is the
other triad, and what that is is words,
(47:16):
pictures and numbers.
And if you're a writer, writer, start your
journal with mostly words, and you already
know how to do it.
Go for it.
Um, if you're, I'm dyslexic and I sometimes
feel scared about writing words because I
(47:37):
feel I'll be attacked by a giant red pen,
and so I will often start my journal with
drawing pictures.
But I know that the part of my brain that
is involved in creating images is different
than the part of my brain that I use when I
(47:58):
use language, and it's not that one is
better than the other, it's just that
they're fundamentally different.
So what I want to do Is to intentionally
Use both of those.
Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to.
(48:22):
Maybe I start drawing pictures, but then I
start also, how can I describe this?
Or maybe there's a question, or it reminds
me of it?
I start writing all over the page as well,
and when I write, I'm not worried about my
spelling, I'm not worried about my grammar.
When I am drawing, I'm not worried about
(48:42):
making a pretty picture, I'm not worried
about making it look good.
It's about the ideas and the thoughts and
the experience, the observations.
I want to dance with those.
Similarly, I'm going to bring in numbers.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
What can I count?
How does that work?
So what can I count?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Right.
So I can count petals, I can count sepals,
I can count numbers of ducks on the pond, I
can count for how many seconds the grebe
goes underwater until it resurfaces again.
I can take several measurements and get an
average of those.
(49:22):
So measuring, estimating, timing the part
of our brain that is involved with numbers
is also different than the part of your
brain that's involved with language.
(49:49):
Mris.
There is a strip of gray matter that is
sort of above where your ears are, in the
middle of your skull that lights up when we
start trying to use numbers.
And your prefrontal cortex that's the front
up there You're doing a lot of your
language stuff there and your visual cortex
towards the back of your brain.
These are physically actually different
regions of your brain.
Now, any brain function, anytime you're
thinking about anything, your whole brain
(50:10):
is doing all sorts of crazy stuff.
But there's special.
There's more blood flow to these zones.
They're getting some extra love when you
change it up.
So to make myself think differently, I will
say to myself like how could I try thinking
about this with numbers?
(50:30):
How could I bring numbers into this?
How could I describe this more with words?
And when I intentionally do that, I give
myself another opportunity to change my
perspective and think more deeply.
(50:50):
And for a lot of people they resist the
numbers and what I hear a lot from folks is
that well, if I turn it into numbers,
that's just going to kind of somehow suck
the life out of this.
I want to be more kind of open and fluid
and creative and the numbers are just going
(51:11):
to sort of stifle me into some rigid box.
I think that the reason that people think
that way about numbers has to do with how
we were taught math.
If you were taught math as speed,
multiplication tables and calculation,
(51:36):
never looking at using it as a tool for
exploring ideas and thinking, you will hate
math.
That's true.
Imagine if you learned literature, learned,
learned, learned about writing and those
sort of things by studying spelling and
rules of grammar, but you never got to read
a book that'd be awful it would be awful.
(51:59):
That's how we teach math, it's true, that's
true.
That's how we teach math.
It's like, like here's some rules, memorize
this stuff.
Here's some more rules, memorize those,
like I learned.
Like I learned square roots as something to
calculate.
Yeah.
As opposed to a beautiful picture.
(52:22):
Square roots is a fascinating beautiful
picture, but it's not taught that way.
It's not taught as an idea.
It is like can you draw a picture of a
square root?
What most people do is draw the little
square roots.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, that's what I would think of.
What would you draw?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, now for this.
Folks at home, you're going to want to go
check out the video, because we're going to
bop over there and we're going to draw a
picture of square roots.
Now for something like the square root of 4
that's really easy, right?
But let's take a look at how you can
(53:02):
visualize that.
But then let's try something like the
square root of 5 or the square root of
seven or something goofy like that, and
let's look at the picture.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
So excited.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, you bet, you didn't expect this
conversation to go this way.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
I totally didn't expect that we'd squirrel
this way.
Yeah, so squirrel, so squirrel, and I love
it, because I've never I well, I've never
understood the purpose of square roots,
frankly, like.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, cause it's just like here's another
thing to memorize, right?
So so, before we do, I just want to say
this about math right, math is just another
language for describing the world, and it
is as beautiful as the world that it
describes.
And the same with the words and language.
(53:53):
Words are a tool, a language for describing
the world and, again, if it was just
grammar rules, it would be useless and ugly
and kind of clunky.
Yeah.
But we start sort of looking at the beauty
of numbers and playing with numbers and
(54:16):
playing with ideas, and I'll show you in my
journal some places that I'm kind of
geeking out with this and you'll sort of
see like, oh, you can have fun with numbers,
yeah, it is.
So let's play with some square roots hooray
all right.
So what I've got is a blank piece of paper.
(54:37):
Um and um, I'm going to draw a picture of
the square root of 4.
And by 4, what I mean is I'm drawing a box
here and I'm going to Actually, let's do
this, we'll start here.
Easy, yeah, this is the square root of 4.
(55:00):
So in this picture is the square root of 4.
This length of the line I've drawn a box
here, divided into quarters, right?
So imagine folks at home, a box with a T
through the middle of it and there's 1, 2,
3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4.
Its volume is 4 and its side, the root of
(55:26):
this square, is too long.
This square has a root that is too long.
Its root is this base of this square, the
square root of 4 is 2.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
That is cool.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Now to make this even cooler, let's do.
Do you want to do a square root of 5 or 6,
or what do you want?
Speaker 1 (55:54):
to do.
Yeah, how about we do a square root of 7?
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Square root of 7.
What would that look like?
Well, so okay, so 4, and then I'm going to
draw three more boxes on my screen here.
So four.
I've already got four up there.
So five, six, seven, all right.
(56:20):
So there's five, six, seven.
Now how can I get these in here?
What I'm going to do is I'm going to take
this one here and this one here and I'm
going to cut them in half.
I'm going to take this part here and I'm
going to attach it right on here.
So I'm sticking it up on the side of my box
(56:40):
and I take this one here.
So I'm cutting one of these little extra
squares in half and I'm going to stitch it
over onto my big square.
Okay, so I've now got this one here, and
let's take this little piece over here.
Okay, I'm going to bring that here, all
(57:02):
right, that is.
And then I'm going to bring this one over
here, all right.
So those ones are now all accounted for.
I've now sort of cut these squares, I've
sort of slid them around.
There's a little gap here that is a half by
a half.
(57:23):
I'm going to steal that from down here.
A half.
I'm going to steal that from down here,
alright, and so I'm going to plug that hole
with that little piece there.
I still have all this to go.
So what I've done is I have removed a
quarter of the remaining square and used it
(57:46):
to plug a little hole that I have up here.
This is here's one, here's one, this is one
half.
Now, what am I going to do?
I'm going to try to take this space here
and stick it into this drawing here.
So I am going to.
(58:07):
I'm going to try to put one piece along
here, one piece along here.
One piece along here, one piece along here.
That will be so if I divide this into sort
of eighths of this original thing.
I'm now going to take an eighth piece and
(58:28):
I'm going to stick that right here.
I'm going to take this eighth piece and I'm
going to stick it right here.
Oh, friends on the radio, this is not good
radio, I know, but maybe they can watch it
on YouTube.
All right, I'm going to put this one over
here.
I'm going to take this one over here and
(58:50):
put that over there.
All right, now I've only got this left.
All right so let's take half of that, All
right, and I am going to take this little
half here and I'm going to put it here.
(59:11):
I'm going to take this little piece here
and I'm going to stick it in over there.
Now, I only have this little piece here,
Well, um, so that was I can take.
So here's a space that's a quarter by a
quarter and I can take that little piece.
(59:38):
Now I'm going to stick it in there.
Speaker 1 (59:41):
We're still left with that little piece.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
All right, and and so now I'm left with
this little piece.
All right, and, and so now I'm left with
this little piece, and you can see, I could
you know, by kind of trimming off, um,
finer and finer pieces continue to sort of
slip this around the edge, or what I could
(01:00:04):
say.
Let's see, I've got 2 plus 1 half plus 1
eighth right.
So this is what 4 eighths.
So this is 5 eighths.
(01:00:40):
It was so the square root of 7, because
there's still some left over here.
It is just a little bit more than 2 and 5
eighths, and we can convert that to decimal
right, and actually, why don't we do that
right now?
So if we've got.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
How do we convert 5 8s into a?
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
decimal, you divide it Okay.
So let's, can you pull out a calculator and
do that for me, right?
Now I sure can yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Let's see 5 divided by by eight, 0.625.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
So 2.625.
Um, now, what I'm going to ask you to do is
to um, use your calculator to calculate the
square root of 7, and I'm saying that it
should be a little bit more than 0.625.
Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Okay, here we go.
Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I'm sorry, 2.625.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Okay, let's see.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Let's see, I've never used this calculator
before before it is 2.645751311, which is a
(01:02:03):
little bit more than which is just a little
bit more, but we got, we estimated this
accurately to the first decimal and kind of,
with some rounding, we're right in the
ballpark.
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
We just I mean, isn't that crazy?
By drawing pictures of squares and then
slicing things and slapping it around, all
of a sudden it's the root of a square.
Isn't that crazy.
That is crazy cool.
You know, what's weird to me is that we
teach it with the calculation and we're not
(01:02:36):
thinking about it in terms of ideas.
Hmm, it's true.
And so I think this is a great kind of
example of just the degree to which math is
taught as calculation and speed
multiplication, yeah.
(01:03:02):
And so another thing that I like to do with
my daughters is we play number games.
They're not problems, we play some number
games and it's really, really fun to try to
(01:03:23):
kind of get your brain to stretch and think
with some math puzzles.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'll just kind of give you an example, one,
if folks at home, you can try this too.
But here's the deal, don't go look this up.
So these are things that my and my.
So there's a little girl at my daughter's
(01:03:52):
school who's crazy sharp and I gave her
these puzzles in third grade and she solved
them during lunch.
Oh my gosh.
And so right.
So check this out.
So here's the first puzzler.
There's these lily pads growing on this
pond, a little pond out back.
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
And every day the amount of space covered
by these lily pads doubles.
So if they covered one square foot today,
tomorrow it'll be two square feet, the next
day it'll be four square feet.
So the amount of space doubles every day.
Okay.
(01:04:37):
And then in 35 days it covers the entire
pond.
On what day did it cover half the pond?
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Wouldn't it be day three.
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
That's right.
It takes a particular kind of visualization
to be able to answer that.
Wouldn't it be day three?
That's right.
It takes a particular kind of visualization
to be able to answer that.
So here's another one.
A bat and a ball cost $1.10.
(01:05:28):
The bat costs $1 more than the ball.
How much?
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
does the ball cost?
Is it 10 cents?
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
So so what?
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
what is was is really fun is that you just
gave the answer that most graduate students
at MIT gave yeah, because a bat and ball
together is $1.10.
Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
So you are in good company with all of
those graduate students at MIT.
The problem is it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Darn it.
No, no, no, no, no, don't feel bad, it's
okay, I'm going to figure it out?
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
No, no, what it is.
And once you figure it out, there's this
like aha, oh, that's elegant, oh, isn't
that interesting.
But what is interesting about this is that
there is an easy answer that jumps to your
head yeah, and so what you actually did is
you solved an easier, different problem
(01:06:22):
than the actual problem.
I'll repeat the question one more time A
bat and a ball cost $1.10.
The ball cost $1 more than the actual
problem.
I'll repeat the question one more time A
bat and a ball cost $1.10.
The ball costs $1 more than the bat.
Sorry, the bat costs $1 more than the ball.
How much does the ball cost?
And there is an easier problem.
(01:06:45):
And what our brains will do is substitute
the easy problem for the actual problem
that I asked and that you know, thinking of
these as as puzzles.
And then what the family does is we sit
around the, the, the table at breakfast and
we're geeking out on these things and kind
of struggling with sort of being in this,
this uncomfortable place of, of, of, of
(01:07:10):
struggle, that productive struggle, and
playing with that.
Um, this is kind of a squirrel path away
from the, the nature, journaling, but I
guess what we're talking about here is just
how much fun it is and how useful it is to
practice our thinking and our critical
(01:07:31):
thinking and to play with these things and
have it be a game and where we don't judge
ourselves.
So by the way, just so you know, the first
time somebody told me this is called the
bat and ball problem.
Folks don't just Google bat and ball
problem, right.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I'm tempted.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
You can do this.
The math is not complex.
Again, this third grader figured out the
bat and ball problem right.
I'm tempted.
You can do this.
The math is not complex.
Again, this third grader figured out the
bat and ball problem.
But it does take really paying attention to
what the question specifically is.
When this was presented to me, I got it
wrong.
Again, most of these graduate students at
(01:08:06):
MIT got it wrong and it's not something
that so there's no shame in that.
But it is really really interesting to be
aware of kind of how is it that our brain
thinks and when we see kind of the shortcut
(01:08:29):
right, our brains take it.
Mine did yeah right.
First time I solved, tried to solve the bat
and ball problem.
I didn't see it.
Um, eventually I figured it out because um
sort of uh, daniel kahneman in his book
thinking fast and Slow talks about these
sort of two.
Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
I love that book.
Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yes, that's actually, if you want the
spoiler.
Daniel Kahneman discusses the bat and ball
problem in that book.
Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, and I haven't read it for 10 years.
So now I'm like I have to go back and read
the book because I don't remember the bat
and ball problem.
Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Yeah, and what it is is that the part of
your brain that you need to solve the bat
and ball problem is system two and you
jumped to a system one, kind of quick
answer.
I did too, so no judgment here, and it's
(01:09:22):
just.
It's really really interesting, but it is
fun to think.
And the more we let our brains out to play
and feel comfortable not knowing stuff,
feel comfortable being in limbo about stuff
and puzzling over things and trying to find
(01:09:44):
a solution, oh I think that that is
absolute gold.
And if in your family there's a culture of
playful creativity with us, where you love
just kind of geeking out together, like my,
(01:10:04):
my daughter's, they this, this game that I
think the name of the game is mind trap, um,
this thing where we have the little cards
where we can flip the things over again,
you know you don't feel the temptation to
flip it.
I still feel the temptation to flip it, but
then then we don't and we um and on, on, on.
On some of them where we've been puzzled.
(01:10:26):
My daughters are then kind of like when we
kind of sort of turned around and kind of
came up with a solution and then we looked
at the back, my daughters actually came up
with some better solutions or reasons why
the solution that they had on the back of
the card was not adequate.
(01:10:49):
And like thinking is fun.
Our brains are this incredible, one of the
most untapped instruments of pleasure that
we have, and the more we can kind of just
get in there and celebrate and have a party
inside your brain that is really, really
powerful.
Now I'm going to interrupt myself for just
(01:11:10):
a moment, because I just heard the doorbell
ring.
And I think that's my daughter coming home
from school.
I'm going to run over there, I'm going to
give her a kiss and a welcome home, I'm
going to point her towards some snacks and
then, I'll be back.
Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
And with that, we're going to pause the
interview.
And this is the end of part one.
Part two again, you're going to want to
watch it on YouTube.
You can listen, but you are going to want
to watch it visually as well, because he
will draw for us and talk about what he's
drawing.
So with that, mamas and papas, grandmas and
grandpas, you got this.
(01:11:42):
You're doing better than you think you are.
We'll talk next week.
If you found this podcast helpful, sign up
for our newsletter at school2homeschoolcom,
where there's also lots of other resources.
You can also subscribe to us on YouTube at
School to Homeschool, or join our private
Facebook page, school to Homeschool.
You've got this, my friends.
Have you ever heard of nature journaling
Y'all?
I had never heard of this until I started
homeschooling and was introduced to John
Muir Law's work, and today he is going to
share with us all about nature journaling.
Now, I have to be honest, it was.
I've interviewed a lot of people and this
was probably one of my favorite interviews
(00:21):
because I felt like I was talking to Mr
Rogers meets Bob Ross, both men of whom I
have a great respect for, and there was
this childlike wonder that just blew me
away.
And so, with that, I want to introduce you
to John Muir Laws.
Now this is going to be divided up into two
(00:42):
parts.
Part one, he's going to be discussing the
tenets of nature journaling and a lot of
other really fascinating things about the
brain, and then in part two, which will
come out next week, he actually physically
shows how he nature journals, which doesn't
make for the most interesting audio track,
(01:05):
but it is on YouTube, so you can watch it
on YouTube, both this and the second part.
Hello and welcome to School, to Homeschool.
I am Janae Daniels.
I'm a wife, a mother of six and a former
middle school teacher turned homeschool mom.
I have kids in their 20s, all the way down
to elementary age and everything in between.
(01:28):
Are you thinking about pulling your kids
from the school system, like I did, but
you're scared to death and don't know what
to do next.
My friends, I felt the same way and you
have come to the right place.
I wanna help your family leave the system
so that you can take the hearts and minds
of your children back.
(01:50):
Hello, my friends, and welcome back.
I am so excited to introduce John.
He goes by Jack Muir Laws.
He is a principal leader and innovator of
the worldwide nature journaling movement.
Jack is a scientist, educator and author
who helps people forge a deeper and a more
personal connection with nature through
keeping illustrated nature journals and
(02:11):
understanding science.
His work intersects science, art and
mindfulness.
Trained as a wildlife biologist and an
associate of the California Academy of
Sciences, he observes the world with
rigorous attention.
He looks for mysteries, plays with ideas
and seeks connections in all he sees
Attention.
Observation, curiosity and creative
(02:33):
thinking are not gifts but skills that grow
with training and deliberate practice.
As an educator and author, Jack teaches
techniques and supports routines that
develop these skills to make them part of
everyday life.
Jack, thank you so much.
It is such an honor to have you here today,
so thank you for coming on and teaching us
(02:53):
about nature journaling I'm so happy to be
here.
This is going to be a lot of fun so, okay,
when I first started homeschooling, I found
your videos on YouTube and was totally
mesmerized and delighted and, quite frankly,
I had never heard of nature journaling, I
had never seen nature journaling.
And then I find out that the whole
(03:14):
homeschooling world knows about it and
somehow I missed it.
But then again, I was new to the
homeschooling world.
So how did you get involved and start
Nature Journal your discovery?
Because you're kind of like the father of
nature journaling.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Oh no, actually I'm not.
I am just a.
I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
There's a whole, there's generations and
generations.
This is something new.
There's generations of people who've been
doing this for a very, very, very long time.
So the idea of taking a notebook and using
(03:50):
it to get your thoughts, your observations,
the connections that you make to explore
mysteries goes way, way, way back da
vinci's notebooks.
It's exactly that same process, but it goes
back even before da vinci and um.
So it's a old school technology which we've
(04:12):
just brought into our modern age.
I think it was forgotten for a little while.
Um, somebody who helped kind of resurrect
it and sort of bring it functionally back
into the attention of a lot of us is a
woman named Claire Walker Leslie.
When I was a kid she wrote this book,
Nature Drawing, a tool for learning, and it
(04:32):
was for me a really foundational book in
developing my own practice.
I actually had been doing my version of it
before I got a hold of her book, but once I
had that in my little pause, like oh, this
is a thing, what fun.
And then I could start looking around at
all sorts of you, start looking at the
(04:52):
notebooks of other people and going like
what are you doing?
Because those notebooks show you how people
are thinking, and then when you start to
play with those strategies, all of a sudden
you're thinking differently.
So it's this incredible lens for changing
how you think and allowing you to kind of
get so much more richness out of any
(05:14):
encounter or observation.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Interesting.
That is so cool.
What have you found have been some of the
benefits for those who do Nature Journal
have been some of the benefits for those
who do Nature Journal.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Well, I would say, first and foremost, it
is a way of paying attention to the world
around us.
Our attention is critically important, I
think of attention is is the fabric of
(05:47):
connection and love.
Wow, I believe that.
Think about your relationship with your
child and how an act of deliberate
attention builds a bridge between their
heart and mind and yours.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's true, which I.
It's interesting because the other day my
my daughter, was trying to talk to me and I
was looking at an email on my phone and
she's like Mom, look at me and the eyeballs,
I want your attention.
And I was like yep, okay, put away my phone
and she's like the phone takes that away
from me and I need your eyeballs.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So humbling, so humbling.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah.
And so often we're saying like you know,
kids these days just on their devices.
Have you seen their parents Guilty Like
where, who's who who could be role modeling
this behavior as they drive to work,
texting, um, or you know, sit there.
Or sit there at their child's recital on
(06:47):
their device, yeah.
Or at the family when you're sitting down
to eat together, out come these devices.
And the devices are divisive.
The devices you see.
Attention is love.
Attention is love.
(07:07):
My working definition of love is sustained,
compassionate attention.
And when you sustain your attention with
another or with a place think about your
spouse, your partner, your child it
profoundly changes you, but it takes work,
but it profoundly changes you and it builds
(07:29):
a deep connection there.
These devices which we now carry in our
pockets are attention pirates.
That's a beautiful way to put it.
They are designed by the world's leading
cognitive psychologists of how to get us
(07:49):
hooked into a platform and how to keep us
there.
They know when to make it whoop.
They know when to make it whoop Right.
They know when to make the screen flash,
when to have a little hepatic buzz in your
hand, when to kind of have a bell or a star.
They know how to feed into our reward
(08:11):
circuits to keep us scrolling.
And you know, you think about it, these
things, you know, but it's free, Like
what's going on with that?
No, free, like what's going on with that?
No, no, it's not free.
What they're doing is they are memorizing
your brain and then they're going to take
(08:31):
that and they sell it to somebody else.
They're commodifying your attention and
they're better at it than we are at
resisting it.
That's true.
Right.
So what this journal is is a way of
reclaiming your attention.
(08:51):
What we do is it is an analog form, without
whip or bop, to kind of sucker you in, and
it allows you to go deeply into the
presence of whatever phenomenon is in front
of you, Whether you're looking out at the
(09:13):
flowers blooming on the redbud, or you're
looking inside of you at.
How does that affect me?
What does that remind me of?
How does that take me back to when I was in
the foothills of the Sierra Nevada with my
mother.
She showed me the flowers of Redbud.
Whatever it is, your attention is something
(09:34):
that you can take back.
You can reclaim it through the pages of a
journal, and what the journal does is
allows you, gives you permission to pay
deep attention, take all your observations,
record them one alongside another, and to
in whatever form comes most naturally to
(09:54):
you.
So some people are more writers, some
people are more drawers, some people are
more quantitative, and so you can start
with whatever mode works best for you.
And so you can start with whatever mode
works best for you and you document and
describe what you are experiencing, and
then you can push yourself a little bit
(10:16):
outside of your comfort bubble, into.
Let's say I'm a writer.
Now I'm going to just challenge myself to
make a map or a diagram or just a few
visual representations of what I'm seeing,
Not so much that it freaks me out, oh no,
Right but but enough so that you're
slightly outside of your comfort zone and
(10:37):
in that space you will notice things that
you otherwise wouldn't have seen just
because you shifted modes.
You otherwise wouldn't have seen just
because you shifted modes.
Interesting and this getting it out of your
head.
You're saying like why can't I just look at
it?
Why can't I just pay attention to it?
Well, it turns out that the human brain
(10:59):
cannot handle complexity.
If you, you know what is 37 multiplied by
146?
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Oh, I'd have to do it on paper.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Exactly so.
The paper can actually handle that, because
you're carrying this and you're putting
this down there.
We can't remember that you can remember
seven different things at a time, plus or
minus two.
Well, really just five.
Yeah, Very often like, oh boy, it's going
to be a five day.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, sometimes only a three day.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So.
But the piece of paper can handle the
complexity, and so you get all this stuff
out of your memory, your present
observation, all this stuff down on the
page, and then you can look at it and it
presents back to you this is your
experience in a way that you can perceive
(11:54):
different levels of nuance and wonder that
you actually would not be able to detect if
you're just staring at nature.
And then that's true for the external world
and the internal, If anybody who's
listening to this keeps a diary.
Yeah.
Yeah, guess what?
People who keep diaries?
The research shows they're more emotionally
(12:15):
intelligent than people who don't.
That's good news.
I don't keep a diary, so that tells you a
lot about me, but the research is really
clear on it.
People who keep diaries tend to like learn
from their mistakes and they have
introspection and, um, what the diary does
is for somebody who doesn't have a diary,
(12:36):
let's say they're going through a breakup.
They sit there on their couch pounding
chocolate and ruminating about the same
scene again and again and again, like first
this happened and then that, and then the
part was wonderful, and then this and now
it's gone.
First this and then that it was wonderful,
but then now it's gone.
Like they're just like in this loop until
(12:58):
you come over and you make some tea and you
say, okay, talk to me about it.
And they say, well, first it was wonderful
and then this happened, and then that
happened, and then now it's gone.
And then, once they kind of get that out
and it's in discussion with you, they
actually kind of start to clear away for
the next thought and the next thought.
(13:18):
But when they're sitting there on their
couch, they were in a rumination loop, they
couldn't get out of that and the diary does
that for you.
So the diary says okay, yeah, you already
put that down.
Give me the next thought.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, time to move on.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And and and you're, you're, so you actually
do that for yourself.
So think about that, that kind of
ruminating that you feel like I'm
processing this, but no, you're stuck.
You're stuck until your friend comes over
with the tea or you pull out your piece of
paper so you want to get unstuck and get
(13:53):
out of your head.
You got to call your friend over with the
tea and with, as we're observing, we also
get stuck.
So there's this crazy research where they
had, they put helmets on people that
tracked their eyeball motions and had them
look at works of art and say I want you to
really take this in, like, like, really
(14:13):
study this.
And people go, okay, and so they'd sit in
front of a work of art and they would, you
know, maybe 15 minutes staring at the thing
and you'd ask them, like, so what do you
know?
I'm just, I'm studying the whole.
I'm really kind of taking their subjective
experiences.
They're really letting this in.
And then, when you track their eyeball
motions, they're looking about five
different things again and again and going,
(14:34):
like, look for your survival.
I'm going to make this easier for you, you
don't need to look any harder, just like,
notice these things and then just loop.
And that's easy, because thinking takes
(14:55):
calories, attention takes work, and if your
brain has a way of kind of circumventing
that, it will of kind of circumventing that
it will.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, I love that, but it's true I heard
that chess players like when they're
playing and they're really concentrating
and really thinking that they burn just an
obscene amount of calories because they are
so focused and trying to pay attention to
every little thing.
So it makes sense.
But I think it's fascinating that you said
that our brain just loops it because we
can't handle any more information than that.
Like I was just in an art gallery a couple
of months ago and I'm like, yeah, I would.
It's true, I looked at the exact same spots
(15:33):
over and over over this one picture and I
was like I couldn't tell you.
The rest of the picture, though.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's the sad part, yeah.
And then with that that seven plus or minus
two you then go to the next picture and you
kind of stare at it and your brain's going
like, yep, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And then you go to the next thing and you
go, yep, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And what your brain is doing is you're
kicking out all that other stuff and you're
thinking but it's going to be really logged
in my memory?
No, because that would take work.
(16:00):
And then you ask people about tell me about
the show.
They might tell you about the last couple
of pieces that were in it, because those
were the most recent ones that they saw.
Your brain is wiping away the rest of it.
There's also, like all this weird research
where they're looking at what is the impact
of just the most recent thing in how you
(16:20):
evaluate an experience.
Let's say, you have a terrible time going
to summer camp, but the last day was great.
You come home and you say summer camp was
great.
It's so weird.
Amazing.
There's this.
Here's like twisted things that
psychologists do to graduate students.
Check out this experiment.
(16:41):
They gave people there's this bucket of ice
water.
Have you ever stuck your hand in a bucket
of ice water?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, they had me do that before I had my
first child to practice.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yes, yes, they also had the dads do it.
I was there with my wife and we're like
doing the breathing thing.
Right, Put their hand in the bucket of ice
water, oh Right, so check this out.
There were two groups.
One of them they you stick their hand in
(17:11):
the bucket of ice water for three minutes.
This is no fun at all.
And at the end of that three minutes the
water temperature started to get warmer and
because they started to squirt in some warm
water with it and then after another minute
you could take your hand out, but the end
(17:31):
water was not as cold as it was at the
start, but they had a full three minutes of
hand in the ice water.
Then there's this other group of people who
stick their hand in ice water and at the
end of three minutes they say OK, now take
your hand out.
How bad was that experience?
The people who had their hand in the ice
water for three minutes and took it out
(17:51):
right there at the end they say that was
horrible.
It really hurt.
I don't want to do this again.
I don't like your experiment.
But those people who had their hand in the
ice water and then it warmed at the end
they go.
That wasn't that bad right, and their
experience was objectively worse because
they had to have their hand in the cold
water longer.
(18:11):
But their final experiment, their final
experience was like, oh, oh, it got, it was.
It wasn't that bad.
And so you remember the last thing.
So we remember the end of the art exhibit.
We don't remember the things in the middle.
You go to a lecture.
There are all these interesting points and
(18:32):
people kind of like at the end of it you
say, like what really sticks out for you?
People will tell you about one of the ideas
that popped up at the end of the talk.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And so again, how can you get around this?
I just went to a lecture and I journaled
all the way through it and then they turned
down the lights and so I was, I was, I was
trying to dark and kind of like with the
kind of the light of the emergency exit,
trying to see if I could get some notes
down.
You could draw.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
yeah, Love it Then.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I was with a dear friend of mine and at the
end he and I were talking about the content
of the lecture and because I had those
notes I was able to go back to the top,
like this part was really interesting, like
oh yeah, I totally forgot about that and we
both would have forgotten about it if I
hadn't kind of gotten it down on the piece
(19:23):
of paper.
So those pieces of paper kind of.
We think better when we can get our
thinking out of our electric meat between
our ears and onto some what's called sort
of a distributed cognition device.
Right, so when you're journaling or you're
diarying, this is distributed cognition.
(19:46):
We used to think that all our thinking
happened between our ears.
But now we realize that these tools, such
as a as a journal, as a diary, that these
are part of the actual fabric of how we
think, and when we extend our thinking
(20:07):
using these tools, our thinking is better.
The piece of paper makes us more effective
at handling complexity.
Like I'm willing to bet that you and 99.99%
of the listeners have a list somewhere in
their kitchen of the things that you need
(20:27):
to get at the grocery store.
We sure, I sure do.
Isn't it interesting how psychic I am that
I was able to tell that right?
I'm kind of amazed.
It's astounding.
The reason that we all have that is because
it works, and those people who don't have
it get over to the grocery store and end up
binge shopping.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
I've done that too, and then I go into
Walmart expecting to buy two things and end
up with about 150 things.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, you get all the things from the end
caps that say look.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I'm blue and then I forget what I came in
for in the first place.
Yeah, that's not right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But if you have the list, then you kind of
go down the list and you check it off and
then bada boom, you've got the things on
your list.
You don't have the things that aren't on
your list.
So you end up you don't fill your pantry up
with that junk, you end up thinking better
because of that list.
That list is part of your distributed
(21:22):
cognition network.
So, just as that list works, like right now,
if I needed to get eggs which I do, and I
was just sitting here through this whole
interview thinking like eggs, eggs, eggs,
eggs, eggs, eggs gotta get the eggs, gotta
get the eggs, gotta get the eggs.
Every time you would ask me a question, I
(21:43):
would be thinking like okay, yeah, yeah,
yeah, and give you kind of part of my brain.
But part of my brain would be like don't
forget the eggs.
Yeah, please remember the eggs.
And then and then, when this, this
conversation, gets really, really
interesting, I'm gonna forget that.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I gotta get the eggs it's so weird how our
brain works.
I mean it's amazing because, like our
brains are are so fascinating, but it's so
weird how our brain works.
I mean it's amazing because, like our
brains are are so fascinating, but it's
crazy because it's true, like even before
we started talking, I had, I had written
down several things that I wanted to talk
to you about, because I'm like I will
forget, I'm going to forget, I'm going to
forget, and if I and I don't want to be
like trying to listen to him and be like
(22:17):
what was like wait, what, what did I, what
did I want to ask?
I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But it's true, blessed are the list makers,
for they shall get things done.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Amen, amen on a Monday.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It is interesting.
So, just for the same reason that all those
lists work, the reason that you've got that
piece of paper in front of you, that's sort
of a microcosm of how um, oh, actually I
got to put something down on my list here.
I just saw a hummingbird come to the empty
(22:53):
hummingbird feeder, so I'm going to put
down fill feeder.
And now.
I can let that thought go and um and, and
the hummingbirds will be okay and our
conversation will be okay too I love it
(23:14):
okay.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
So what are the?
Some of the major principles or, like the
major, the major things that we need to
know about nature journaling?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
okay, the the most important thing is that
it is not as tricky or difficult or hard as
you think.
This isn't some complex mystic process.
This is really pretty straightforward.
Yay, and you can do it.
You don't have to be an artist, you don't
have to be a scientist, you don't have to
be a naturalist.
(23:40):
You can absolutely do this thing.
Have to be a scientist.
You don't have to be a naturalist, you can
absolutely do this thing.
You've got everything that it takes to be a
nature journaler.
And you can start today Because I bet,
because of one of those art classes that
you took at some point but then kind of
gave up on, somewhere in your closet is
that box marked art supplies and there's an
(24:01):
old journal in it, a little notebook with a
whole bunch of blank pages, because you're
thinking I should get one of these art
sketchbooks, right.
So you're going to get, just get that thing
out.
That'll work perfectly for this, right?
You've already got the tools.
You don't need any special brush or pen or
pencil.
Get some of your favorite drawing tools,
and what you're going to do is I like to
(24:24):
think of it this way there is the big why,
there is the how and there's the what.
So here's the big why If you pay deeper
attention to the world around you, the
world around you will reveal secrets and
mysteries and beauty that you otherwise
would have missed or forgotten.
(24:46):
This will make your life richer, because it
allows you to reclaim your attention.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's our big why.
So you're doing this for you and the world.
As you do this, you're going to find that
the world opens up to you.
Now let's think about the what Like.
What are you doing?
I like to think of three major categories
of things, and I call this the I notice, I
(25:17):
wonder it reminds me of.
That's my mantra I notice, I wonder it
reminds me of.
I do this when I'm nature journ of.
I do this when I'm nature journaling.
I do this when I'm thinking about a book.
I do this when I am discussing literature
or Shakespeare with my daughter.
I do this when I'm listening to music.
I do this all the time, with everything.
And so I notice.
(25:38):
It's just what do you observe If you
observe it?
If you see something, say something, put it
down on your piece of paper.
That observation, that observation, that
observation.
You get them all out of your head and onto
the piece of paper.
The piece of paper can hold all this stuff.
So get those observations down on the piece
of paper and then it's I notice, I wonder.
(26:04):
So the I wonder is.
I'm going to deliberately trigger my
curiosity, I'm going to get intentionally
curious about what is happening in front of
me.
And when you're curious, everything's a lot
more fun.
Curiosity is really really, really fun and
it's a skill.
Curiosity is really really, really fun and
it's a skill.
The more you practice curiosity, the more
(26:25):
you can make yourself like, let's do some
curiosity.
Right now I can look out at anything and
you can just sort of stare at it.
But if you get yourself kind of curious
about something where you kind of notice
something like, oh, what's up with that,
where you kind of notice something like, oh,
what's up with that, and what you start to
realize is that rabbit holes that you can
(26:46):
fall down are everywhere, and then you're
starting to intentionally like let's look
for some rabbit holes, and it's not to try
to fill them up, but because the goal is,
(27:07):
if you can go spelunking down a rabbit hole,
just dive into it.
You are bathing in curiosity and when
you're curious, this is kind of cool.
Going back to some brain stuff, they found
out that when you're curious, your brain
releases dopamine.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
No kidding.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yep, you want some dopamine.
Get curious, that kind of lean in feeling
that we get when we're curious about
something that is a big slosh of dopamine.
It's a neurotransmitter and in the presence
of this neurotransmitter you're able to
stick with something longer and check this
out.
Your memory of what you were doing goes way,
(27:40):
way, way up, not just for the thing that
caught your curiosity but for all the
related observations that are kind of
circling around that.
Because it's this generally available
neurotransmitter in your brain, it is
improving your memory, not just for the
(28:01):
target of your curiosity, not just for the
target of your curiosity, but for all the
rest of the phenomena that are in the
details that are going on around you.
So your brain works better when you're
curious.
Even if you don't answer these questions
and you will answer some of them, but
you'll probably end up asking many more
questions than you can ever answer in a
lifetime your brain works better when
(28:22):
you're curious and it makes it easier for
you then to get into a flow state.
You know that state where time just
disappears and you just are absorbed in the
wonder of whatever moment is in front of
you.
So, intentionally going for curiosity.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Wow, that's really cool Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
That's really cool it is, it is wonderful
it is.
It feels so good to find a mystery and get
to play with it with your brain.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
It's true, I was talking to my little girl
about that.
We home squirrel a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Tell me more about this home squirrel.
I have to write this down.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I have to write this down.
I didn't coin it.
I saw it on a meme once and, and, and the
meme was really funny.
It said that day that that moment when you
started to learn about water pressure and
somehow ended up on a live game cam
watching a baby owl and then you're
finalizing a falafel recipe, you know like.
But the other day my, my nine-year-old
daughter she's my caboose of my kids and we
(29:32):
started.
She had a question.
She was drawn, okay, she, she wanted to do
this thing for a neighbor child that's
younger than her and she wanted to make a
little fishing pond for them.
So she drew these different fish and then
she drew a jellyfish and and I said, oh,
the jellyfish actually has tentacles,
because she just drew some straight, some
like little cones.
(29:53):
And I said, actually, jellyfish have little,
they have little squiggles.
And she said, well, can we look up
jellyfish on YouTube?
And I said, yes, let's, let's look up it
and use YouTube and learn about jellyfish,
which then they've talked about how
jellyfish are venomous and they can sting
you.
So she said, well, can we look up why
they're?
So then we looked up why they're venomous
and as we're looking at why they're
(30:13):
venomous, we also learned that they
evaporate on the beach.
So then she said what is evaporation?
And I said, well, let's look up evaporation.
So then we went into the life cycle of
water and somehow we ended up learning
about sea turtles, dolphins.
And then we were looking up a recipe about
(30:34):
donuts have no idea where.
Like somehow it took us down all of these
rabbit holes and we looked up about donuts
and we made donuts.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Wow I mean you had me at tentacles, but you
got all the way to donuts.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We got to donuts.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
That is some extra frosting on the whole
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
That is home squirreling at its best.
Home squirreling oh, I love that idea
Anyway.
So I didn't coin the term.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
What you did is you went spelunking, you
got curious and that curiosity pulls you
along.
So you don't have to wait for curiosity to
come to you.
You can go deliberately, do curiosity when
you choose to.
It's like I think I would like some
dopamine right now.
I'm going to go get curious, I love that.
(31:25):
And so then you can use your.
You know either your who, what, where, when,
how, why prompts you can start thinking
about.
You know connections or relationships or
change, or you know other ideas and sort of
(31:45):
see like I'm going to look at this, at this
pomegranate through the lens of structure
function right, like okay, let's see what
happens.
And you can say okay, what questions come
to me?
But you want to.
You want to say like I wonder, I wonder and
what.
You can even say it out loud Like what's
the question here?
What's the question and the first questions
that often come to you are to say like I
wonder, I wonder and what.
You can even say it out loud like what,
what's the question here?
What's the question and the first questions
(32:06):
that often come to you are like little
questions.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Oh, john, are you there?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
oh, john, I've lost you it's still
recording I still I hear you okay, there
you are.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Oh, I I lost you for just a second, but it
it's still recording.
Oh okay.
That was really bizarre.
I've never had that happen before.
Okay, so pomegranate.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Okay, so, yeah, so we're going to rewind,
rewind.
You put this pomegranate in front of you
and you start to say, like who, what, where,
when, how, why?
Hmm gosh, let's find the questions, the
mysteries waiting in the pomegranate.
You know that this pomegranate is filled
with mysteries.
The amount which science has figured out
about pomegranates is the tiniest little
(32:49):
fraction of the wisdom embedded in
pomegranates.
And so let's look at this from the lens of
curiosity what can we ask about this
pomegranate?
And you start digging and usually the first
(33:10):
questions that come to you will be kind of
they'll be little questions, so write those
ones down.
You kind of got to get through those ones
to get to the big juicy ones are the ones
the question that is hiding behind the
question.
If you want to get to the question that is
hiding behind the question, if you want to
get to the question behind the question,
behind the question, and you go several
layers down and the questions get really
(33:31):
interesting.
You often don't even have to answer some of
these questions to get to a richer question
behind it where you can say, like you know,
is that to do this?
Well, and if it is, then why would this be
right?
And so you can play with your curiosity.
All of a sudden the dopamine is sloshing
around in your brain.
You're going to be motivated then to make
(33:52):
observations, to answer some of your
questions.
Sometimes answers are sometimes we'll
Google, search something and you can figure
out some of the answers there.
But very easily Any homeschool kid give
them five minutes and they should be able
(34:12):
to start to come up with questions that
Google has never, never thought of.
It's true, anyone has really kind of gone
down this particular rabbit hole, and here
you are.
There's not going to be a Wikipedia page
for this one.
You don't want to settle for the question.
That is very often.
This is kind of cool.
(34:34):
Very often when we do a search for
something that we're trying to find
information about, well, a couple of things
happen, happen.
We usually stop searching when we get
something that confirms what we already
believe right so that's great.
But there's another thing that happens, and
(34:54):
that is we.
When we cannot find the answer that we're
looking for, we we settle for, we change
our question to be one which we found right.
I went in here trying to find out this
thing and now I know this other thing right,
and it's going to, and that's known.
(35:15):
But instead of just gosh, can I live with
the mystery, can I stay here in this sort
of place of vulnerability where I don't
know the answer, and really embrace that?
That's really, really cool.
So don't change your question to match an
answer you found.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Let curiosity be there and realize that
here is a mystery, even some places.
Sometimes.
What I will do is actually I've got a
nature journal here.
Let me.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yay, I'm excited to see.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So if you're listening, I will describe
what I'm seeing on the nature journal page.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And if you want to watch my friends, you
can watch this episode on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So you, may want to come back and watch it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Oh, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I was over on the eastern side of the
Sierra Nevada Beautiful range of mountains,
and I'm going to try to find where I think
this is the right sketchbook Um um look how
gorgeous those notes are.
(36:42):
Why can't I find this?
I'm what are called the Crowley Lake
columns.
I was by the side of Crowley Lake and I
think I'm looking at the wrong journal.
Oh, I don't think this will have the
pictures of Crowley Lake.
So you people who are watching it at home
here or listening on the radio, you don't
(37:05):
have to go scampering over there right now.
So let me bounce back here and just
describe this for you.
Okay, perfect, where a tough a layer of
volcanic ash is being eroded by a lake, an
(37:29):
artificial lake, and where this is
happening as it erodes into this cliff face,
there are these strange columns that are
more resistant than the rest of the matrix
of the surrounding rock, and so it erodes
around these columns, and so you get these
strange vertical columns coming down,
filling these caves.
They're not stalactite stalagmites, they're
(37:51):
really, really, really, really weird.
And I went with my family to Crowley Lake.
We went to the columns and we always were
like what's going on here?
So I started journaling about it, keeping
all these notes, taking in all this data.
Is this petrified wood?
No, is that worth the case?
(38:11):
I would see this Not.
It's a totally different texture.
It's the same kind of ashy matrix.
What's going on with this?
So we're geeking out with these columns and
by the time the day was done, I had several
pages filled with notes about these columns.
Now I could not for the life of me figure
(38:32):
out what's going on with the Crowley Lake
columns.
So then I got back home that evening we
actually were in a little motel, so we got
back there and they had an internet
connection I pulled out my computer and I
typed in Crowley Lake Columns, what forms
them, click, and one of the choices was
that you know, scientists finally figure
(38:53):
out what is causing the Crowley Lake
Columns.
And my finger was heading for the button
getting closer, closer, closer, closer.
And then I stopped and I thought to myself
you know what On the other side of that
click is an answer.
And I know that when I get that, I'm going
to get this feeling of task completion and
(39:18):
my brain might then take this incredible
mystery and chalk that up to something that
I now know and I now can forget about.
Have you ever studied for a test?
And then you take the test and you forget
everything?
Yeah, that's called the Zerganek effect,
and if you Zerganek yourself, you do this
(39:41):
when your brain feels that a task is
complete and then we forget about it.
You know, here I am a long time later
talking about the Crowley Lake columns.
Why?
Because it's still an open loop in my brain.
That is so cool.
So what I often?
sometimes I do look things up- but,
(40:02):
sometimes I let the mystery just hang out
there and I sometimes go to sleep and as
I'm laying there in bed, kind of beginning
to drift off to sleep and I don't count
sheep I'll think about like what could be a
mechanism for causing the Crowley Lake
columns.
So I've got these little kind of puzzles
that could play in my head and you know
(40:26):
that keeps my brain just perking along.
And the world is filled with mysteries.
If you think it's filled with answers,
you're not asking enough questions.
There's mysteries, mysteries everywhere,
and sometimes what I'll do is, when I get
one little mystery answered, what I do then
(40:50):
is I try to kind of open up a new loop on
the other side of it to say can I find some
way of having this new thing that I now
understand?
Help me be able to come up with the next
question that is now going to be my new
open loop.
So that's just kind of a.
That's a whole bunch about this curiosity
(41:11):
thing, but curiosity is so much fun and oh,
my goodness, folks, you've got to go to
Crowley Lake.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Now I'm like I have to go to Crowley Lake
and take a notebook.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And think of, and when you do think of how
tempting it will be to click on that link.
Something that I regularly do with my
daughters is we have this card deck of sort
of mind-bending puzzles and as we eat
breakfast in the morning we'll try to solve
a puzzle or two and we'll get on these
(41:44):
really good ones and the answer is right on
the back of the card.
And something that we like to notice is how
tempting when you can't figure it out how
tempting it is to flip the card and and
find out.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yes, Because it was a surprise though, yeah,
and and and.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
When you do, then it's like, oh, that's it,
oh, okay, and it's just like magic tricks
Everybody wants to know how the trick was
done.
If the magician tells you, you would be
really underwhelmed so don't flip the card
over.
(42:27):
Um, so don't flip the card over.
Let your brain be there in that struggle
and and just sort of celebrate with
yourself, like, isn't it interesting how
much I want to flip that card.
I want the answers.
I don't.
I don't want to be in the process of
puzzling, I want to be, I want the answers.
And so I think we're in a culture that
really loves getting the answers and the
answers, you know, it's just a click away.
(42:47):
Yeah, it's true, but no, let yourself be a
problem solver, play with the mysteries.
Don't jump to the back of the book, don't
flip the card, be there with it, and so
what we'll do is like one person will kind
of get on with it and um, and so what we'll
do is like so one person will will kind of
get onto it and um, sometimes they will
(43:08):
give it like a small hint to to the rest of
us who are stuck, and eventually we'll kind
of all arrive there together, and then we
like to unpack.
Why were we stuck?
What was going on in our thinking that we
could not figure this little, this mind
trap out, this little box of questions?
It's called mind trap.
(43:28):
So we'll sit there with our little box of
mind traps and it is a great way for us to
practice critical thinking and being also
getting comfortable with not knowing stuff.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
So, and that's only two of the parts of
kind of what's going on in the nature
journal.
I said there were three things we talked
about.
I noticed and I wonder and then it reminds
me of and then it reminds me of so, and
this is this one is the often the sort of
neglected stepchild of I noticed I wonder
many people do not give.
(44:01):
It reminds me of it's due, and so I want to
unpack with you like why?
Like you can say like okay, I see why
you're asking questions, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
I see why you're making observations, but
what is?
How come it reminds me of?
Why do I care about that?
So what this is about is about creative
(44:24):
thinking.
That's what it reminds me of.
Hook is.
It is creative thinking and I know
creativity is sort of one of these terms
that if you a little thing that you can
dangle above your baby while they're on
their back, right, let's say this will
(44:46):
enhance creativity.
It's just marketing.
It has nothing to do with creativity, so
it's just this overused word.
But here, being a little scientist, I want
to define my terms.
So when I talk about creativity, I say that
creativity is your brain's ability to make
useful connections between seemingly
(45:06):
unrelated things Useful connections between
seemingly unrelated things.
So if you practice finding these
connections and relationships, you will
have a brain that can get really
comfortable at networking ideas Like this
(45:29):
is like that, but not in this way.
It's different, like this and, but it's
similar over here, and this can be as sort
of scientific or or or metaphoric or
playful as you're feeling on that day.
You just want to see, like what is
connecting in your electric meat that, in
(45:49):
one way or another, is going to tap into
this and can be part of the conversation.
Maybe this is something that you learned in
a school, maybe this is something that you
read.
Maybe this is a quote that moves you, maybe
this is an observation that moves you.
Maybe this is an observation that you once
made in frozen ice, because all ice is
frozen right In non-redundant frozen ice
(46:21):
and you want to.
Then you intentionally bring that in and it
helps you look at whatever phenomenon is in
front of you in a slightly different way,
and so what I'm doing is I'm trying to get
as many tools as I can to get my brain to
play with the world and engage in a
different way.
(46:41):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Okay, so we get the object or the thing we
we want to notice, we wonder it reminds me
of, and then we get it on those things on
paper as well.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Right.
So that's, that's that is.
I like to think of it as two triads.
One triad is I notice I wonder it reminds
me of, and this then leads us to, that's
the what.
Then there's the how, and the how is the
other triad, and what that is is words,
(47:16):
pictures and numbers.
And if you're a writer, writer, start your
journal with mostly words, and you already
know how to do it.
Go for it.
Um, if you're, I'm dyslexic and I sometimes
feel scared about writing words because I
(47:37):
feel I'll be attacked by a giant red pen,
and so I will often start my journal with
drawing pictures.
But I know that the part of my brain that
is involved in creating images is different
than the part of my brain that I use when I
(47:58):
use language, and it's not that one is
better than the other, it's just that
they're fundamentally different.
So what I want to do Is to intentionally
Use both of those.
Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to.
(48:22):
Maybe I start drawing pictures, but then I
start also, how can I describe this?
Or maybe there's a question, or it reminds
me of it?
I start writing all over the page as well,
and when I write, I'm not worried about my
spelling, I'm not worried about my grammar.
When I am drawing, I'm not worried about
(48:42):
making a pretty picture, I'm not worried
about making it look good.
It's about the ideas and the thoughts and
the experience, the observations.
I want to dance with those.
Similarly, I'm going to bring in numbers.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
What can I count?
How does that work?
So what can I count?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Right.
So I can count petals, I can count sepals,
I can count numbers of ducks on the pond, I
can count for how many seconds the grebe
goes underwater until it resurfaces again.
I can take several measurements and get an
average of those.
(49:22):
So measuring, estimating, timing the part
of our brain that is involved with numbers
is also different than the part of your
brain that's involved with language.
(49:49):
Mris.
There is a strip of gray matter that is
sort of above where your ears are, in the
middle of your skull that lights up when we
start trying to use numbers.
And your prefrontal cortex that's the front
up there You're doing a lot of your
language stuff there and your visual cortex
towards the back of your brain.
These are physically actually different
regions of your brain.
Now, any brain function, anytime you're
thinking about anything, your whole brain
(50:10):
is doing all sorts of crazy stuff.
But there's special.
There's more blood flow to these zones.
They're getting some extra love when you
change it up.
So to make myself think differently, I will
say to myself like how could I try thinking
about this with numbers?
(50:30):
How could I bring numbers into this?
How could I describe this more with words?
And when I intentionally do that, I give
myself another opportunity to change my
perspective and think more deeply.
(50:50):
And for a lot of people they resist the
numbers and what I hear a lot from folks is
that well, if I turn it into numbers,
that's just going to kind of somehow suck
the life out of this.
I want to be more kind of open and fluid
and creative and the numbers are just going
(51:11):
to sort of stifle me into some rigid box.
I think that the reason that people think
that way about numbers has to do with how
we were taught math.
If you were taught math as speed,
multiplication tables and calculation,
(51:36):
never looking at using it as a tool for
exploring ideas and thinking, you will hate
math.
That's true.
Imagine if you learned literature, learned,
learned, learned about writing and those
sort of things by studying spelling and
rules of grammar, but you never got to read
a book that'd be awful it would be awful.
(51:59):
That's how we teach math, it's true, that's
true.
That's how we teach math.
It's like, like here's some rules, memorize
this stuff.
Here's some more rules, memorize those,
like I learned.
Like I learned square roots as something to
calculate.
Yeah.
As opposed to a beautiful picture.
(52:22):
Square roots is a fascinating beautiful
picture, but it's not taught that way.
It's not taught as an idea.
It is like can you draw a picture of a
square root?
What most people do is draw the little
square roots.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, that's what I would think of.
What would you draw?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, now for this.
Folks at home, you're going to want to go
check out the video, because we're going to
bop over there and we're going to draw a
picture of square roots.
Now for something like the square root of 4
that's really easy, right?
But let's take a look at how you can
(53:02):
visualize that.
But then let's try something like the
square root of 5 or the square root of
seven or something goofy like that, and
let's look at the picture.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
So excited.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, you bet, you didn't expect this
conversation to go this way.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
I totally didn't expect that we'd squirrel
this way.
Yeah, so squirrel, so squirrel, and I love
it, because I've never I well, I've never
understood the purpose of square roots,
frankly, like.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, cause it's just like here's another
thing to memorize, right?
So so, before we do, I just want to say
this about math right, math is just another
language for describing the world, and it
is as beautiful as the world that it
describes.
And the same with the words and language.
(53:53):
Words are a tool, a language for describing
the world and, again, if it was just
grammar rules, it would be useless and ugly
and kind of clunky.
Yeah.
But we start sort of looking at the beauty
of numbers and playing with numbers and
(54:16):
playing with ideas, and I'll show you in my
journal some places that I'm kind of
geeking out with this and you'll sort of
see like, oh, you can have fun with numbers,
yeah, it is.
So let's play with some square roots hooray
all right.
So what I've got is a blank piece of paper.
(54:37):
Um and um, I'm going to draw a picture of
the square root of 4.
And by 4, what I mean is I'm drawing a box
here and I'm going to Actually, let's do
this, we'll start here.
Easy, yeah, this is the square root of 4.
(55:00):
So in this picture is the square root of 4.
This length of the line I've drawn a box
here, divided into quarters, right?
So imagine folks at home, a box with a T
through the middle of it and there's 1, 2,
3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4.
Its volume is 4 and its side, the root of
(55:26):
this square, is too long.
This square has a root that is too long.
Its root is this base of this square, the
square root of 4 is 2.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
That is cool.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Now to make this even cooler, let's do.
Do you want to do a square root of 5 or 6,
or what do you want?
Speaker 1 (55:54):
to do.
Yeah, how about we do a square root of 7?
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Square root of 7.
What would that look like?
Well, so okay, so 4, and then I'm going to
draw three more boxes on my screen here.
So four.
I've already got four up there.
So five, six, seven, all right.
(56:20):
So there's five, six, seven.
Now how can I get these in here?
What I'm going to do is I'm going to take
this one here and this one here and I'm
going to cut them in half.
I'm going to take this part here and I'm
going to attach it right on here.
So I'm sticking it up on the side of my box
(56:40):
and I take this one here.
So I'm cutting one of these little extra
squares in half and I'm going to stitch it
over onto my big square.
Okay, so I've now got this one here, and
let's take this little piece over here.
Okay, I'm going to bring that here, all
(57:02):
right, that is.
And then I'm going to bring this one over
here, all right.
So those ones are now all accounted for.
I've now sort of cut these squares, I've
sort of slid them around.
There's a little gap here that is a half by
a half.
(57:23):
I'm going to steal that from down here.
A half.
I'm going to steal that from down here,
alright, and so I'm going to plug that hole
with that little piece there.
I still have all this to go.
So what I've done is I have removed a
quarter of the remaining square and used it
(57:46):
to plug a little hole that I have up here.
This is here's one, here's one, this is one
half.
Now, what am I going to do?
I'm going to try to take this space here
and stick it into this drawing here.
So I am going to.
(58:07):
I'm going to try to put one piece along
here, one piece along here.
One piece along here, one piece along here.
That will be so if I divide this into sort
of eighths of this original thing.
I'm now going to take an eighth piece and
(58:28):
I'm going to stick that right here.
I'm going to take this eighth piece and I'm
going to stick it right here.
Oh, friends on the radio, this is not good
radio, I know, but maybe they can watch it
on YouTube.
All right, I'm going to put this one over
here.
I'm going to take this one over here and
(58:50):
put that over there.
All right, now I've only got this left.
All right so let's take half of that, All
right, and I am going to take this little
half here and I'm going to put it here.
(59:11):
I'm going to take this little piece here
and I'm going to stick it in over there.
Now, I only have this little piece here,
Well, um, so that was I can take.
So here's a space that's a quarter by a
quarter and I can take that little piece.
(59:38):
Now I'm going to stick it in there.
Speaker 1 (59:41):
We're still left with that little piece.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
All right, and and so now I'm left with
this little piece.
All right, and, and so now I'm left with
this little piece, and you can see, I could
you know, by kind of trimming off, um,
finer and finer pieces continue to sort of
slip this around the edge, or what I could
(01:00:04):
say.
Let's see, I've got 2 plus 1 half plus 1
eighth right.
So this is what 4 eighths.
So this is 5 eighths.
(01:00:40):
It was so the square root of 7, because
there's still some left over here.
It is just a little bit more than 2 and 5
eighths, and we can convert that to decimal
right, and actually, why don't we do that
right now?
So if we've got.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
How do we convert 5 8s into a?
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
decimal, you divide it Okay.
So let's, can you pull out a calculator and
do that for me, right?
Now I sure can yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:06):
Let's see 5 divided by by eight, 0.625.
Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
So 2.625.
Um, now, what I'm going to ask you to do is
to um, use your calculator to calculate the
square root of 7, and I'm saying that it
should be a little bit more than 0.625.
Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Okay, here we go.
Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I'm sorry, 2.625.
Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Okay, let's see.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Let's see, I've never used this calculator
before before it is 2.645751311, which is a
(01:02:03):
little bit more than which is just a little
bit more, but we got, we estimated this
accurately to the first decimal and kind of,
with some rounding, we're right in the
ballpark.
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
We just I mean, isn't that crazy?
By drawing pictures of squares and then
slicing things and slapping it around, all
of a sudden it's the root of a square.
Isn't that crazy.
That is crazy cool.
You know, what's weird to me is that we
teach it with the calculation and we're not
(01:02:36):
thinking about it in terms of ideas.
Hmm, it's true.
And so I think this is a great kind of
example of just the degree to which math is
taught as calculation and speed
multiplication, yeah.
(01:03:02):
And so another thing that I like to do with
my daughters is we play number games.
They're not problems, we play some number
games and it's really, really fun to try to
(01:03:23):
kind of get your brain to stretch and think
with some math puzzles.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'll just kind of give you an example, one,
if folks at home, you can try this too.
But here's the deal, don't go look this up.
So these are things that my and my.
So there's a little girl at my daughter's
(01:03:52):
school who's crazy sharp and I gave her
these puzzles in third grade and she solved
them during lunch.
Oh my gosh.
And so right.
So check this out.
So here's the first puzzler.
There's these lily pads growing on this
pond, a little pond out back.
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
And every day the amount of space covered
by these lily pads doubles.
So if they covered one square foot today,
tomorrow it'll be two square feet, the next
day it'll be four square feet.
So the amount of space doubles every day.
Okay.
(01:04:37):
And then in 35 days it covers the entire
pond.
On what day did it cover half the pond?
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Wouldn't it be day three.
Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
That's right.
It takes a particular kind of visualization
to be able to answer that.
Wouldn't it be day three?
That's right.
It takes a particular kind of visualization
to be able to answer that.
So here's another one.
A bat and a ball cost $1.10.
(01:05:28):
The bat costs $1 more than the ball.
How much?
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
does the ball cost?
Is it 10 cents?
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
So so what?
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
what is was is really fun is that you just
gave the answer that most graduate students
at MIT gave yeah, because a bat and ball
together is $1.10.
Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
So you are in good company with all of
those graduate students at MIT.
The problem is it's wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Darn it.
No, no, no, no, no, don't feel bad, it's
okay, I'm going to figure it out?
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
No, no, what it is.
And once you figure it out, there's this
like aha, oh, that's elegant, oh, isn't
that interesting.
But what is interesting about this is that
there is an easy answer that jumps to your
head yeah, and so what you actually did is
you solved an easier, different problem
(01:06:22):
than the actual problem.
I'll repeat the question one more time A
bat and a ball cost $1.10.
The ball cost $1 more than the actual
problem.
I'll repeat the question one more time A
bat and a ball cost $1.10.
The ball costs $1 more than the bat.
Sorry, the bat costs $1 more than the ball.
How much does the ball cost?
And there is an easier problem.
(01:06:45):
And what our brains will do is substitute
the easy problem for the actual problem
that I asked and that you know, thinking of
these as as puzzles.
And then what the family does is we sit
around the, the, the table at breakfast and
we're geeking out on these things and kind
of struggling with sort of being in this,
this uncomfortable place of, of, of, of
(01:07:10):
struggle, that productive struggle, and
playing with that.
Um, this is kind of a squirrel path away
from the, the nature, journaling, but I
guess what we're talking about here is just
how much fun it is and how useful it is to
practice our thinking and our critical
(01:07:31):
thinking and to play with these things and
have it be a game and where we don't judge
ourselves.
So by the way, just so you know, the first
time somebody told me this is called the
bat and ball problem.
Folks don't just Google bat and ball
problem, right.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I'm tempted.
Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
You can do this.
The math is not complex.
Again, this third grader figured out the
bat and ball problem right.
I'm tempted.
You can do this.
The math is not complex.
Again, this third grader figured out the
bat and ball problem.
But it does take really paying attention to
what the question specifically is.
When this was presented to me, I got it
wrong.
Again, most of these graduate students at
(01:08:06):
MIT got it wrong and it's not something
that so there's no shame in that.
But it is really really interesting to be
aware of kind of how is it that our brain
thinks and when we see kind of the shortcut
(01:08:29):
right, our brains take it.
Mine did yeah right.
First time I solved, tried to solve the bat
and ball problem.
I didn't see it.
Um, eventually I figured it out because um
sort of uh, daniel kahneman in his book
thinking fast and Slow talks about these
sort of two.
Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
I love that book.
Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Yes, that's actually, if you want the
spoiler.
Daniel Kahneman discusses the bat and ball
problem in that book.
Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, and I haven't read it for 10 years.
So now I'm like I have to go back and read
the book because I don't remember the bat
and ball problem.
Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Yeah, and what it is is that the part of
your brain that you need to solve the bat
and ball problem is system two and you
jumped to a system one, kind of quick
answer.
I did too, so no judgment here, and it's
(01:09:22):
just.
It's really really interesting, but it is
fun to think.
And the more we let our brains out to play
and feel comfortable not knowing stuff,
feel comfortable being in limbo about stuff
and puzzling over things and trying to find
(01:09:44):
a solution, oh I think that that is
absolute gold.
And if in your family there's a culture of
playful creativity with us, where you love
just kind of geeking out together, like my,
(01:10:04):
my daughter's, they this, this game that I
think the name of the game is mind trap, um,
this thing where we have the little cards
where we can flip the things over again,
you know you don't feel the temptation to
flip it.
I still feel the temptation to flip it, but
then then we don't and we um and on, on, on.
On some of them where we've been puzzled.
(01:10:26):
My daughters are then kind of like when we
kind of sort of turned around and kind of
came up with a solution and then we looked
at the back, my daughters actually came up
with some better solutions or reasons why
the solution that they had on the back of
the card was not adequate.
(01:10:49):
And like thinking is fun.
Our brains are this incredible, one of the
most untapped instruments of pleasure that
we have, and the more we can kind of just
get in there and celebrate and have a party
inside your brain that is really, really
powerful.
Now I'm going to interrupt myself for just
(01:11:10):
a moment, because I just heard the doorbell
ring.
And I think that's my daughter coming home
from school.
I'm going to run over there, I'm going to
give her a kiss and a welcome home, I'm
going to point her towards some snacks and
then, I'll be back.
Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
And with that, we're going to pause the
interview.
And this is the end of part one.
Part two again, you're going to want to
watch it on YouTube.
You can listen, but you are going to want
to watch it visually as well, because he
will draw for us and talk about what he's
drawing.
So with that, mamas and papas, grandmas and
grandpas, you got this.
(01:11:42):
You're doing better than you think you are.
We'll talk next week.
If you found this podcast helpful, sign up
for our newsletter at school2homeschoolcom,
where there's also lots of other resources.
You can also subscribe to us on YouTube at
School to Homeschool, or join our private
Facebook page, school to Homeschool.
You've got this, my friends.
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