April 7, 2025 • 36 mins
In this conversation, Part 2, John (Jack) Muir Laws discusses the importance of nature journaling as a tool for creativity and self-expression. He shares his personal experiences with drawing, the challenges of dyslexia, and how these elements contribute to a deeper understanding of the natural world. The dialogue emphasizes the value of curiosity, the process of exploration, and the significance of attention in both art and education as he demonstrates how to Nature Journal.
- Nature journaling encourages curiosity and exploration.
- Drawing can serve as a powerful thinking exercise.
- Perfectionism can hinder creativity; focus on the process instead.
- Incorporating poetry can enrich the journaling experience.
- Dyslexia can be a unique asset in creative expression.
- Attention to detail fosters deeper understanding in education.
- Mistakes in art are part of the learning process.
- Using objects from nature can inspire artistic expression.
- Creative expression is a personal journey, not a competition.
- Homeschooling requires profound attention and love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's take a look at that.
So what I do is I try to keep a number of
objects around the house that someday I'd
like to take a closer look at this.
So you know, we have the old sort of idea
of the cabinet of curiosities.
What I have is a sort of a wall of little
wonders, and hiking down a trail, I pick up
(00:22):
something like oh that's weird, stick it in
my pocket and then someday on a snow day,
right, I can pull that out and play with it.
And what I do is I use these as sort of
tools to kind of get myself to think more,
and also part of it's practicing drawing.
I'll be making some drawings.
The more you draw, the better you get at
(00:43):
drawing.
So if you do that on a regular basis, you
get better at drawing.
I'll be making some drawings.
The more you draw, the better you get at
drawing.
So if you do that on a regular basis, you
get better at drawing.
But I like to think of it as sort of a
thinking exercise.
So I've got my friend recently went to the
islands of Vanuatu and brought back this
little shell that has been partially eroded
(01:04):
and so it was broken by the surf and waves
and and I thought to myself, I would love
to kind of explore that and I'm gonna use I
notice I wonder it reminds me of.
I'm gonna use words, pictures and numbers
and I'm gonna see what happens.
So this isn't scripted.
I don't know where this is going, but let's
just take a look at what this process looks
(01:24):
like when we start to play.
I've got a little journal here and I am
going to.
I was just at a school today with a bunch
(01:46):
of children and we were looking at the tree
that is in front of the school and trying
to use that as a prompt for getting
ourselves curious.
That's so fun.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Ah, there I go.
So me being dyslexic, I often am kind of
intimidated initially by words.
I know that my brain will really benefit
from using the words but, I, often start in
(02:27):
my comfort zone by drawing a picture here.
What I've done is I've just taken this
shell, I put it down on top of my piece of
paper and I'm tracing around it.
Uh, help me kind of get the general shape.
All right, and and then, and then it seems
to have this sort of central axis through
(02:48):
it.
I'm seeing this set of interlocking cones.
So I'm going to draw in that central axis,
kind of coming from up down here in this
corner.
(03:11):
If I extend that up to kind of up in here
and I'm lightly loosely drawing this on my
piece of paper will end up doing is drawing
over that with a pen.
I should give folks a warning Sometimes
(03:33):
when I am drawing, because it takes part of
your brain, you can actually see.
It's kind of interesting because you can
see cognitive load happen.
If you listen to me, you'll hear me pause
while I talk, sometimes while I'm drawing,
because my brain can't do two things at the
same time, and other times you'll see me
stop drawing in order to be able to talk.
(03:54):
So it's kind of fun to watch cognitive load
happening real time.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
My mom always said you are not allowed to
talk while you're doing your chores,
because you stopped doing all of them.
So that was the rule.
It was the rule of my house.
I was not allowed to talk if I was doing
chores.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Oh, that's fun, so I'm kind of getting.
I'm just sort of loosely blocking in and
very scribbly drawing the general shape
that I'm seeing, and then I can refine that
a little bit and then I will kind of come
(04:38):
back and draw over that with a bold pen
line.
I like to make an analogy to this to
writing a paper, where first you write an
outline and then on that you get to sort of
(05:00):
figure out roughly where you're going and
then from that you can write your sort of
format, your paragraphs, and then at the
end you come by with sort of fine detail
and work on your spelling and punctuation
and kind of crisp everything up.
Drawings vary very much the same way, so I
(05:22):
will often this is sort of I've already
kind of created a general outline.
I'm now essentially giving myself a little
bit more of the paragraph structure and
detail and then I will come by in a moment
and work on the spelling.
(05:42):
Here I'm just looking at how big are these
different parts?
How do they overlap or not overlap?
Have I made one part too big?
And that kind of works for me.
Again, I started with tracing.
So you might say, isn't that cheating?
But there is no.
There's no cheating in this, it's just I
want to pay attention to this object and
(06:05):
what can I learn from the object?
What can the object teach me about the
natural world?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I think it's funny that we do that to
ourselves.
We'll make rules, arbitrary rules, like my
daughter has a goal to read 100 books this
year.
And she said I'm behind on my goal.
And I said, well, then, read a shorter book.
She's like am I allowed to do that?
And I said, well, who said I mean it's your
goal?
And she's like oh, I didn't think that I
made a rule, I unintentionally made a rule,
(06:33):
so I love that.
You're like oh, it's not cheating.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah, yeah, this is, this is, this is for
you, and so now what I want to do as I'm
doing this is I also want to start, you
know, really kind of getting myself curious.
These nested cones are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And it makes this for a very interesting
geometric pattern.
I remember notice, see, I'm doing an it
reminds me of I remember a long time ago my
friend, joe told me that all of these
snails and sort of twisted spiral shells,
there were three different, three different
(07:20):
sort of things that you could tweak on how
to make a shell and by changing these
parameters it would change the shape of the
shell.
So, one was, you know the degree to which
it is kind of growing off center.
One was how big, how fast the aperture is
growing.
(07:41):
What was the third?
So this makes me sort of I'm kind of my
brain is kind of going back to what Joe
said about these different shapes, and I am,
and I haven't.
You know, what's neat is I haven't thought
about Joe in a while, which makes me want
to call up my old co-worker, joe.
(08:04):
See, that's kind of a neat thing about it
and it reminds me of Is that it?
You pay attention to where your brain goes.
I haven't thought about Joe for a while,
but he was a really brilliant guy and
what's he doing right now?
So after our call here, I think I'm going
(08:26):
to call Joe.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Get reconnected.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It reminds me of, can take you all sorts of
places.
So now I'm thinking about also about kind
of the ecology of this little shell.
Who was this little creature?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I was just thinking as you were drawing
that I thought what lived inside of that
little thing?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yes, what would the experience of being
this little beastie be?
Can you imagine your life being always
inside this shell but also having that
security and that protection?
(09:15):
What is this a metaphor for?
It's that wonderful poem about the
chambered nautilus.
Where observing the chambered nautilus,
chambered nautilus, where observing the
chambered nautilus gets the poet thinking
in all sorts of interesting metaphoric ways.
What is this for me?
(09:36):
How can I use this?
You know I can think metaphorically about
this.
It reminds me of, and see where that takes
my brain.
Now, a lot of people when they're doing
(09:57):
this, they would start to get gripped when
the drawing part of the drawing doesn't
look the way they wanted it to, and that
happens to everybody, happens to me too.
There will be parts that are more accurate
and parts that are less accurate, and
that's okay, that's just part of the nature
(10:18):
of doing this.
And if you get yourself all stressed out
about sort of making kind of one of those
very human happen all the time um, sort of,
uh sort of process mistakes, then you make
(10:40):
it less likely that you'll ever do this
again.
And so that I don't kind of turn myself off
to it, I'm aware when my brain starts to
(11:00):
kind of really beat me up about having to
be perfect, and when that happens, you want
to intentionally move the goalpost for
yourself.
Remember, this isn't about making a pretty
picture.
If you want to make pretty pictures, here's
the secret.
It's really straightforward Make lots of
pictures, right, make lots of pictures.
(11:23):
And if you make lots of pictures, if you
make lots of pictures, you'll make some
pretty pictures and some of them won't be.
But it's a numbers game.
You have to.
You have to kind of go through a bunch of
these pictures to get them to start to kind
of come out pretty.
But another thing that you can do is just
(11:44):
make sure your brain knows why are you
doing this, why are you doing this?
And there's a tendency for us to kind of
think that, oh, the reason I'm doing this
is I want to make a pretty picture.
And if I make that my goal, then it's
really easy for me to get gripped about
(12:05):
something not being a pretty picture.
But if instead I say to myself why am I
doing this?
Oh, the reason I'm doing this is because I
want to get myself to look more carefully
at this little shell I've got the daylight
starting to creep across my board here Then
(12:25):
I'll show you.
A wonderful way to kind of get the pressure
off of the drawing is is to say, I want to
start, um, just writing all over the page
as well.
If it's just a drawing, it feels like an
art project.
If it is a drawing and writing, then my
(12:47):
brain goes like, oh, you're taking notes
about something and then it's okay if it's
not a pretty picture.
That's right, and so over here is the axis.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Now I just heard my other daughter come
home, so I'm going to pause this for just a
moment.
I'm going to run over and welcome her and
give her a kiss and tell her I love her,
and then I will be right back.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Sounds good.
Don't forget to show her the snacks are.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Snacks are important.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I am going to put up a piece of cardboard
here to block that light.
(13:42):
Oh, not very well.
Oh, not very well.
Eventually, in my studio here, I'm going to
get a.
I think I need to get a some curtains for
when I do an afternoon discussion.
We'll just have to make do with the light
(14:03):
coming across here.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I hope that doesn't bother you, not at all.
Well, was getting curious.
Actually I'm like oh, look at how much the
shadow is cast on that shell against the
picture oh yeah, so because it was, it was
a different shadow earlier and it's neat to
see how fast that's changing.
And it changed fast.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Mm-hmm, the um, so, um.
Now I want to so.
Interlocking cones, Um, cones, and it's
(14:48):
neat to sort of see how these little cones
then are expressed on the outside.
Interlocking cones make ridges on back of
on back of cone.
(15:13):
It would be interesting to figure out sort
of mathematically what the ratio is If you
could take one of these and slice it
straight in half.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What is the ratio of growth one cone to the
next, to the next?
(15:51):
Could you predict what the size of the next
cone would be from these?
Is it linear?
Is the relative proportions of this one to
this one the same as this one to this one,
as this one to this one, or is there some
sort of a function going on where that
(16:13):
ratio is changing between these?
That would be kind of a cool thing to be
able to graph.
I can't really do that on this because I
don't have.
I would have to kind of get in here and
kind of grind this away until I had a
perfect kind of half in here and kind of
grind this away until I had a perfect kind
of half there.
And yeah, we'd want to do it sort of up to
(16:35):
this.
I don't think I have can't kind of do that
from this, but that would be fun to see.
So what I've done is I've written a
question on my page, so things that I
notice.
I wonder it reminds me of the poem
(17:05):
Chambered Nautilus, the poem Chambered
Nautilus, and I'm going to actually give
myself what I call a to-do box here, a
little box that I can check off to remind
myself that what I want to do after this is
to go find that poem again and read the
(17:27):
Chambered Nautilus Look at now, there's
this whole.
To go find that poem again and read the
Chamber.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Nautilus, could you put that poem in your
nature journal.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Absolutely, absolutely, and sort of
transcribing quotes or poems that
particularly move you, or I might find a
phrase from it.
Actually, since we're here, let's walk
across the room and pull a book off the
(17:59):
shelf.
And where is that?
I know it is in in the first poetry book
that I had when I was a kid.
I found it.
It was this one 101 Famous Poems.
(18:21):
And I know the Chambered Nautilus is in
here.
So I am going to Chambered Nautilus, oliver
Wendell Holmes, page 13.
And so maybe I can put in something from
(18:46):
that.
Hey, oliver, oliver, year after year,
beheld in silent toil that spreads this
(19:10):
lustrous coil.
Still as the spiral grew, he left the past
year's dwelling for a new.
So in a chambered novelist there are these
little sections as it grows.
This one doesn't have that Stole.
With soft step it's shining, archway
(19:30):
through, built up its idle door, stretched
in his last found home and knew the old.
No more I'm going to, I'm going to go just
right.
(19:50):
Year after year, beheld the silent toil
that spread this lustrous coil.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Oh, that's beautiful, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, that is fun.
Now, some people can do calligraphy, I
can't, so I'm just going to write it in.
I'm going to put cursive, though, because
that'll just hold it differently.
Thank, you.
(21:20):
Something that's kind of fun for me is I am
dyslexic and so when I look at a word that
I am copying, sometimes it changes around
for me, and so very often my spelling is
(21:47):
not even though the word is right in front
of me, that it comes out in some other way,
and I've just sort of learned to make peace
with that.
You know that I've got this kind of fun
dyslexic brain that does things in its own
(22:09):
way, and initially that was really
frustrating for me.
I wanted to have a brain like all the rest
of the kids that didn't have trouble with
spelling.
And now I wouldn't give up this little
dyslexic brain for the world because it
(22:29):
does things in a way that is unexpected and
some things are harder for me, but because
I then have had to work hard in those
things, in those areas, it's opened up
(22:49):
other doors for me, and the person who I am
is partly because I have a challenge with
spelling.
You know, I'm going to reach down here and
grab a ruler because maybe I can do a
(23:15):
little bit of measurement with this little
structure here.
Wouldn't it be interesting if I could
figure out some kind of a mathematical
relationship that I could graph just in
these little parts?
(23:37):
Here there's my ruler and so I'm going to
roughly where would I start?
Okay, I'm going to start these things from
kind of where the top edge of this would be,
and then where are you going to end?
Oh, but where are they end?
Oh, that's going to be hard to say.
(23:59):
I'd be really just be, oh, yeah, that it is.
It's hard, without kind of slicing down
into this, to know where to end the next
measurement.
I can't just kind of go with these things
(24:21):
because they where I see these these little
kind of grooves here, because that just is
where this thing happened to break and
erode.
That's going to be just randomly different
on different ones.
Let's get an overall shell length.
I like to use the metric system.
There I am on the inches side.
(24:43):
Something felt wrong.
It's about 10 centimeters by long ways,
about 10 by 5.
(25:05):
And so I am going to.
Long axis is 10 centimeters by 5
(25:26):
centimeters.
And how big could this species grow?
How did you look?
It reminds me of oh it reminds me of nested
(25:48):
Russian dolls.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, yes, it does.
I just got some raw nesting dolls that are
just plain that you can paint.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Oh, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
A couple of my kids and I are going to do
that Is paint them and turn them into
something delightful.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Reminds me of one of those spiral slides,
so sometimes it reminds me of our
scientific things.
Here it's more poetic and playful.
Science meals are scientific things.
Here it's more poetic and playful.
It's interesting to see which ways things
(26:34):
will go.
What I can do is I can use my observations.
Am I putting observations down here?
These?
parts are thin.
Oh, wouldn't it be interesting to look at
the thickness of the shell as you go down
these parts again.
If you had one of these shells and you
could cleanly cut it, then you could um,
(26:57):
how does?
You can measure how the thickness changed.
How does?
Because out here, where this part is,
that's, that's feeling really beefy.
I think these parts in here are very thin.
How does shell thickness change?
(27:21):
I like to put in a little delta change
symbol for change.
That's kind of fun.
That is fun and it's how do you spell
Oliver's last name H-O-L-M-E-S.
All right, that's kind of fun.
(27:48):
I love your suggestion of kind of fun.
I love your suggestion of transcribing some
of that poem into here.
You can bring into your journaling.
Whatever is you, whatever is inspiring you.
I really like to kind of go back to this.
(28:12):
I notice I wonder it reminds me of.
I've got my words, pictures, numbers, and
then what I can do is I like to think of
what is it?
What is my big takeaway from this?
(28:33):
What do I want to do next?
One thing I want to do is to be on the
lookout, for I'd love to find a shell and
some way of smoothly cutting one exactly in
half.
So I'm going to say again another little
(28:53):
to-do box.
Now I can check off this to-do box because
I have already checked off, checked out the
chambered nautilus.
But I'm going to give myself another little
thing Look for ways to cut and expose a
(29:22):
spiral shell.
Spiral shell, that that I can measure.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
Look how beautiful all that is and so this
little shell has then kind of given me.
It's now sort of prompted me to kind of go
into the next investigation, and it's fun
to kind of get all your thinking out in one
place.
(30:06):
Let's put the date on March 10th.
Darren's shell from Vanuatu.
(30:28):
Not sure on the spelling of that either.
For me, kind of actually having spelling
mistakes is kind of it's my fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I love it, it's character.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
So and if I, if I limited myself to only
writing words that I could spell because I
was afraid of spelling, it would really
lock up my ability to think with words on
paper.
Similarly, if I'm thinking to myself like,
oh, it'd be hard to draw, I don't know if I
(31:02):
could make a pretty picture of that, you
know that's going to prevent me from
drawing pictures or making diagrams.
So rather than angsting about those things,
think of this as a book for you to be.
This is your thinking book, this is your
brain on paper, and it's not about how it
(31:23):
looks or how it's spelled.
It's about can you make connections?
Can you think more deeply, Like what was
the last time I looked at chambered
nautilus?
It's been a while and this little moment
inspired me to go do that.
(31:46):
That's wonderful, Love that.
And at the end of this I get to call Joe.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to put that
down as a to-do on here, Otherwise I might
forget it and just remember only to change
the burr feeder.
So I call Joe.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Jack, thank you so much.
I know you've got a time constraint today.
I appreciate so much you taking the time to
come and share with us your knowledge about
nature, journaling and so many other
wonderful things so it was fun to do some
homeschooling with you.
Likewise, likewise.
(32:23):
Thank you so much.
Mamas and papas, grandmas and grandpas,
you're doing better than you think you are.
You've got this.
We'll talk next time.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
You think like if I do it wrong my kid's
going to be broken.
It's easier just to like, have somebody
else take like you love and you care.
You're here because you love and you care
and with that as the foundation for every
step you take forward, it's going to turn
(32:53):
out okay.
It's going to turn out more than okay.
It's going to be really good.
You can absolutely do this, and I also want
to say that what you're doing is beautiful
and what you're doing is also brave.
Most people it's it's scary to take on that
(33:15):
responsibility.
It's really scary, um, but with that
foundation of of of of love, you are going
to be guided to to do something wonderful
because you are paying deep attention to
your child.
Your child will know every day of their
(33:37):
life going forward that they are always
loved by you.
It's the strength of that attention, and
homeschooling takes profound, deliberate,
sustained attention, and that's love.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Wow, thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I'm so honored to have been here and if my
work can be of help to any of your
listeners, they can find me at
johnmurelawscom.
All my contact information is there.
There's also hundreds of hours of tutorials
and resources for families or individuals
that want to do this.
I wrote a book on how to teach nature
journaling.
The entire thing is free as a download that
(34:20):
anybody can make from anywhere in the world.
I hope that these resources are really
helpful to you.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
It's been so beautiful and, like I said,
it's been an honor and thank you.
And I will include everything in the show
notes for for the everybody who wants it
will have your website.
As a matter of fact, we're going to I'm
going to even put mind traps a link to mind
traps so they can find out.
Uh, pick up a set of cards themselves.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
My daughters love those.
Like let's do a mind trap.
I mean like just think.
Every morning you're kind of trying to get
yourself to think laterally.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, what's I mean?
That's fun, that is fun.
So well, thank you again, and um, I have a
great afternoon and thank you for sharing
your talents with us so so much.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's really wonderful to be here with you.
Let's take a look at that.
So what I do is I try to keep a number of
objects around the house that someday I'd
like to take a closer look at this.
So you know, we have the old sort of idea
of the cabinet of curiosities.
What I have is a sort of a wall of little
wonders, and hiking down a trail, I pick up
(00:22):
something like oh that's weird, stick it in
my pocket and then someday on a snow day,
right, I can pull that out and play with it.
And what I do is I use these as sort of
tools to kind of get myself to think more,
and also part of it's practicing drawing.
I'll be making some drawings.
The more you draw, the better you get at
(00:43):
drawing.
So if you do that on a regular basis, you
get better at drawing.
I'll be making some drawings.
The more you draw, the better you get at
drawing.
So if you do that on a regular basis, you
get better at drawing.
But I like to think of it as sort of a
thinking exercise.
So I've got my friend recently went to the
islands of Vanuatu and brought back this
little shell that has been partially eroded
(01:04):
and so it was broken by the surf and waves
and and I thought to myself, I would love
to kind of explore that and I'm gonna use I
notice I wonder it reminds me of.
I'm gonna use words, pictures and numbers
and I'm gonna see what happens.
So this isn't scripted.
I don't know where this is going, but let's
just take a look at what this process looks
(01:24):
like when we start to play.
I've got a little journal here and I am
going to.
I was just at a school today with a bunch
(01:46):
of children and we were looking at the tree
that is in front of the school and trying
to use that as a prompt for getting
ourselves curious.
That's so fun.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Ah, there I go.
So me being dyslexic, I often am kind of
intimidated initially by words.
I know that my brain will really benefit
from using the words but, I, often start in
(02:27):
my comfort zone by drawing a picture here.
What I've done is I've just taken this
shell, I put it down on top of my piece of
paper and I'm tracing around it.
Uh, help me kind of get the general shape.
All right, and and then, and then it seems
to have this sort of central axis through
(02:48):
it.
I'm seeing this set of interlocking cones.
So I'm going to draw in that central axis,
kind of coming from up down here in this
corner.
(03:11):
If I extend that up to kind of up in here
and I'm lightly loosely drawing this on my
piece of paper will end up doing is drawing
over that with a pen.
I should give folks a warning Sometimes
(03:33):
when I am drawing, because it takes part of
your brain, you can actually see.
It's kind of interesting because you can
see cognitive load happen.
If you listen to me, you'll hear me pause
while I talk, sometimes while I'm drawing,
because my brain can't do two things at the
same time, and other times you'll see me
stop drawing in order to be able to talk.
(03:54):
So it's kind of fun to watch cognitive load
happening real time.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
My mom always said you are not allowed to
talk while you're doing your chores,
because you stopped doing all of them.
So that was the rule.
It was the rule of my house.
I was not allowed to talk if I was doing
chores.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Oh, that's fun, so I'm kind of getting.
I'm just sort of loosely blocking in and
very scribbly drawing the general shape
that I'm seeing, and then I can refine that
a little bit and then I will kind of come
(04:38):
back and draw over that with a bold pen
line.
I like to make an analogy to this to
writing a paper, where first you write an
outline and then on that you get to sort of
(05:00):
figure out roughly where you're going and
then from that you can write your sort of
format, your paragraphs, and then at the
end you come by with sort of fine detail
and work on your spelling and punctuation
and kind of crisp everything up.
Drawings vary very much the same way, so I
(05:22):
will often this is sort of I've already
kind of created a general outline.
I'm now essentially giving myself a little
bit more of the paragraph structure and
detail and then I will come by in a moment
and work on the spelling.
(05:42):
Here I'm just looking at how big are these
different parts?
How do they overlap or not overlap?
Have I made one part too big?
And that kind of works for me.
Again, I started with tracing.
So you might say, isn't that cheating?
But there is no.
There's no cheating in this, it's just I
want to pay attention to this object and
(06:05):
what can I learn from the object?
What can the object teach me about the
natural world?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I think it's funny that we do that to
ourselves.
We'll make rules, arbitrary rules, like my
daughter has a goal to read 100 books this
year.
And she said I'm behind on my goal.
And I said, well, then, read a shorter book.
She's like am I allowed to do that?
And I said, well, who said I mean it's your
goal?
And she's like oh, I didn't think that I
made a rule, I unintentionally made a rule,
(06:33):
so I love that.
You're like oh, it's not cheating.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah, yeah, this is, this is, this is for
you, and so now what I want to do as I'm
doing this is I also want to start, you
know, really kind of getting myself curious.
These nested cones are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And it makes this for a very interesting
geometric pattern.
I remember notice, see, I'm doing an it
reminds me of I remember a long time ago my
friend, joe told me that all of these
snails and sort of twisted spiral shells,
there were three different, three different
(07:20):
sort of things that you could tweak on how
to make a shell and by changing these
parameters it would change the shape of the
shell.
So, one was, you know the degree to which
it is kind of growing off center.
One was how big, how fast the aperture is
growing.
(07:41):
What was the third?
So this makes me sort of I'm kind of my
brain is kind of going back to what Joe
said about these different shapes, and I am,
and I haven't.
You know, what's neat is I haven't thought
about Joe in a while, which makes me want
to call up my old co-worker, joe.
(08:04):
See, that's kind of a neat thing about it
and it reminds me of Is that it?
You pay attention to where your brain goes.
I haven't thought about Joe for a while,
but he was a really brilliant guy and
what's he doing right now?
So after our call here, I think I'm going
(08:26):
to call Joe.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Get reconnected.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It reminds me of, can take you all sorts of
places.
So now I'm thinking about also about kind
of the ecology of this little shell.
Who was this little creature?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I was just thinking as you were drawing
that I thought what lived inside of that
little thing?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yes, what would the experience of being
this little beastie be?
Can you imagine your life being always
inside this shell but also having that
security and that protection?
(09:15):
What is this a metaphor for?
It's that wonderful poem about the
chambered nautilus.
Where observing the chambered nautilus,
chambered nautilus, where observing the
chambered nautilus gets the poet thinking
in all sorts of interesting metaphoric ways.
What is this for me?
(09:36):
How can I use this?
You know I can think metaphorically about
this.
It reminds me of, and see where that takes
my brain.
Now, a lot of people when they're doing
(09:57):
this, they would start to get gripped when
the drawing part of the drawing doesn't
look the way they wanted it to, and that
happens to everybody, happens to me too.
There will be parts that are more accurate
and parts that are less accurate, and
that's okay, that's just part of the nature
(10:18):
of doing this.
And if you get yourself all stressed out
about sort of making kind of one of those
very human happen all the time um, sort of,
uh sort of process mistakes, then you make
(10:40):
it less likely that you'll ever do this
again.
And so that I don't kind of turn myself off
to it, I'm aware when my brain starts to
(11:00):
kind of really beat me up about having to
be perfect, and when that happens, you want
to intentionally move the goalpost for
yourself.
Remember, this isn't about making a pretty
picture.
If you want to make pretty pictures, here's
the secret.
It's really straightforward Make lots of
pictures, right, make lots of pictures.
(11:23):
And if you make lots of pictures, if you
make lots of pictures, you'll make some
pretty pictures and some of them won't be.
But it's a numbers game.
You have to.
You have to kind of go through a bunch of
these pictures to get them to start to kind
of come out pretty.
But another thing that you can do is just
(11:44):
make sure your brain knows why are you
doing this, why are you doing this?
And there's a tendency for us to kind of
think that, oh, the reason I'm doing this
is I want to make a pretty picture.
And if I make that my goal, then it's
really easy for me to get gripped about
(12:05):
something not being a pretty picture.
But if instead I say to myself why am I
doing this?
Oh, the reason I'm doing this is because I
want to get myself to look more carefully
at this little shell I've got the daylight
starting to creep across my board here Then
(12:25):
I'll show you.
A wonderful way to kind of get the pressure
off of the drawing is is to say, I want to
start, um, just writing all over the page
as well.
If it's just a drawing, it feels like an
art project.
If it is a drawing and writing, then my
(12:47):
brain goes like, oh, you're taking notes
about something and then it's okay if it's
not a pretty picture.
That's right, and so over here is the axis.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Now I just heard my other daughter come
home, so I'm going to pause this for just a
moment.
I'm going to run over and welcome her and
give her a kiss and tell her I love her,
and then I will be right back.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Sounds good.
Don't forget to show her the snacks are.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Snacks are important.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I am going to put up a piece of cardboard
here to block that light.
(13:42):
Oh, not very well.
Oh, not very well.
Eventually, in my studio here, I'm going to
get a.
I think I need to get a some curtains for
when I do an afternoon discussion.
We'll just have to make do with the light
(14:03):
coming across here.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I hope that doesn't bother you, not at all.
Well, was getting curious.
Actually I'm like oh, look at how much the
shadow is cast on that shell against the
picture oh yeah, so because it was, it was
a different shadow earlier and it's neat to
see how fast that's changing.
And it changed fast.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Mm-hmm, the um, so, um.
Now I want to so.
Interlocking cones, Um, cones, and it's
(14:48):
neat to sort of see how these little cones
then are expressed on the outside.
Interlocking cones make ridges on back of
on back of cone.
(15:13):
It would be interesting to figure out sort
of mathematically what the ratio is If you
could take one of these and slice it
straight in half.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What is the ratio of growth one cone to the
next, to the next?
(15:51):
Could you predict what the size of the next
cone would be from these?
Is it linear?
Is the relative proportions of this one to
this one the same as this one to this one,
as this one to this one, or is there some
sort of a function going on where that
(16:13):
ratio is changing between these?
That would be kind of a cool thing to be
able to graph.
I can't really do that on this because I
don't have.
I would have to kind of get in here and
kind of grind this away until I had a
perfect kind of half in here and kind of
grind this away until I had a perfect kind
of half there.
And yeah, we'd want to do it sort of up to
(16:35):
this.
I don't think I have can't kind of do that
from this, but that would be fun to see.
So what I've done is I've written a
question on my page, so things that I
notice.
I wonder it reminds me of the poem
(17:05):
Chambered Nautilus, the poem Chambered
Nautilus, and I'm going to actually give
myself what I call a to-do box here, a
little box that I can check off to remind
myself that what I want to do after this is
to go find that poem again and read the
(17:27):
Chambered Nautilus Look at now, there's
this whole.
To go find that poem again and read the
Chamber.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Nautilus, could you put that poem in your
nature journal.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Absolutely, absolutely, and sort of
transcribing quotes or poems that
particularly move you, or I might find a
phrase from it.
Actually, since we're here, let's walk
across the room and pull a book off the
(17:59):
shelf.
And where is that?
I know it is in in the first poetry book
that I had when I was a kid.
I found it.
It was this one 101 Famous Poems.
(18:21):
And I know the Chambered Nautilus is in
here.
So I am going to Chambered Nautilus, oliver
Wendell Holmes, page 13.
And so maybe I can put in something from
(18:46):
that.
Hey, oliver, oliver, year after year,
beheld in silent toil that spreads this
(19:10):
lustrous coil.
Still as the spiral grew, he left the past
year's dwelling for a new.
So in a chambered novelist there are these
little sections as it grows.
This one doesn't have that Stole.
With soft step it's shining, archway
(19:30):
through, built up its idle door, stretched
in his last found home and knew the old.
No more I'm going to, I'm going to go just
right.
(19:50):
Year after year, beheld the silent toil
that spread this lustrous coil.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Oh, that's beautiful, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, that is fun.
Now, some people can do calligraphy, I
can't, so I'm just going to write it in.
I'm going to put cursive, though, because
that'll just hold it differently.
Thank, you.
(21:20):
Something that's kind of fun for me is I am
dyslexic and so when I look at a word that
I am copying, sometimes it changes around
for me, and so very often my spelling is
(21:47):
not even though the word is right in front
of me, that it comes out in some other way,
and I've just sort of learned to make peace
with that.
You know that I've got this kind of fun
dyslexic brain that does things in its own
(22:09):
way, and initially that was really
frustrating for me.
I wanted to have a brain like all the rest
of the kids that didn't have trouble with
spelling.
And now I wouldn't give up this little
dyslexic brain for the world because it
(22:29):
does things in a way that is unexpected and
some things are harder for me, but because
I then have had to work hard in those
things, in those areas, it's opened up
(22:49):
other doors for me, and the person who I am
is partly because I have a challenge with
spelling.
You know, I'm going to reach down here and
grab a ruler because maybe I can do a
(23:15):
little bit of measurement with this little
structure here.
Wouldn't it be interesting if I could
figure out some kind of a mathematical
relationship that I could graph just in
these little parts?
(23:37):
Here there's my ruler and so I'm going to
roughly where would I start?
Okay, I'm going to start these things from
kind of where the top edge of this would be,
and then where are you going to end?
Oh, but where are they end?
Oh, that's going to be hard to say.
(23:59):
I'd be really just be, oh, yeah, that it is.
It's hard, without kind of slicing down
into this, to know where to end the next
measurement.
I can't just kind of go with these things
(24:21):
because they where I see these these little
kind of grooves here, because that just is
where this thing happened to break and
erode.
That's going to be just randomly different
on different ones.
Let's get an overall shell length.
I like to use the metric system.
There I am on the inches side.
(24:43):
Something felt wrong.
It's about 10 centimeters by long ways,
about 10 by 5.
(25:05):
And so I am going to.
Long axis is 10 centimeters by 5
(25:26):
centimeters.
And how big could this species grow?
How did you look?
It reminds me of oh it reminds me of nested
(25:48):
Russian dolls.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, yes, it does.
I just got some raw nesting dolls that are
just plain that you can paint.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Oh, that's fun.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
A couple of my kids and I are going to do
that Is paint them and turn them into
something delightful.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Reminds me of one of those spiral slides,
so sometimes it reminds me of our
scientific things.
Here it's more poetic and playful.
Science meals are scientific things.
Here it's more poetic and playful.
It's interesting to see which ways things
(26:34):
will go.
What I can do is I can use my observations.
Am I putting observations down here?
These?
parts are thin.
Oh, wouldn't it be interesting to look at
the thickness of the shell as you go down
these parts again.
If you had one of these shells and you
could cleanly cut it, then you could um,
(26:57):
how does?
You can measure how the thickness changed.
How does?
Because out here, where this part is,
that's, that's feeling really beefy.
I think these parts in here are very thin.
How does shell thickness change?
(27:21):
I like to put in a little delta change
symbol for change.
That's kind of fun.
That is fun and it's how do you spell
Oliver's last name H-O-L-M-E-S.
All right, that's kind of fun.
(27:48):
I love your suggestion of kind of fun.
I love your suggestion of transcribing some
of that poem into here.
You can bring into your journaling.
Whatever is you, whatever is inspiring you.
I really like to kind of go back to this.
(28:12):
I notice I wonder it reminds me of.
I've got my words, pictures, numbers, and
then what I can do is I like to think of
what is it?
What is my big takeaway from this?
(28:33):
What do I want to do next?
One thing I want to do is to be on the
lookout, for I'd love to find a shell and
some way of smoothly cutting one exactly in
half.
So I'm going to say again another little
(28:53):
to-do box.
Now I can check off this to-do box because
I have already checked off, checked out the
chambered nautilus.
But I'm going to give myself another little
thing Look for ways to cut and expose a
(29:22):
spiral shell.
Spiral shell, that that I can measure.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
Look how beautiful all that is and so this
little shell has then kind of given me.
It's now sort of prompted me to kind of go
into the next investigation, and it's fun
to kind of get all your thinking out in one
place.
(30:06):
Let's put the date on March 10th.
Darren's shell from Vanuatu.
(30:28):
Not sure on the spelling of that either.
For me, kind of actually having spelling
mistakes is kind of it's my fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I love it, it's character.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
So and if I, if I limited myself to only
writing words that I could spell because I
was afraid of spelling, it would really
lock up my ability to think with words on
paper.
Similarly, if I'm thinking to myself like,
oh, it'd be hard to draw, I don't know if I
(31:02):
could make a pretty picture of that, you
know that's going to prevent me from
drawing pictures or making diagrams.
So rather than angsting about those things,
think of this as a book for you to be.
This is your thinking book, this is your
brain on paper, and it's not about how it
(31:23):
looks or how it's spelled.
It's about can you make connections?
Can you think more deeply, Like what was
the last time I looked at chambered
nautilus?
It's been a while and this little moment
inspired me to go do that.
(31:46):
That's wonderful, Love that.
And at the end of this I get to call Joe.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to put that
down as a to-do on here, Otherwise I might
forget it and just remember only to change
the burr feeder.
So I call Joe.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Jack, thank you so much.
I know you've got a time constraint today.
I appreciate so much you taking the time to
come and share with us your knowledge about
nature, journaling and so many other
wonderful things so it was fun to do some
homeschooling with you.
Likewise, likewise.
(32:23):
Thank you so much.
Mamas and papas, grandmas and grandpas,
you're doing better than you think you are.
You've got this.
We'll talk next time.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
You think like if I do it wrong my kid's
going to be broken.
It's easier just to like, have somebody
else take like you love and you care.
You're here because you love and you care
and with that as the foundation for every
step you take forward, it's going to turn
(32:53):
out okay.
It's going to turn out more than okay.
It's going to be really good.
You can absolutely do this, and I also want
to say that what you're doing is beautiful
and what you're doing is also brave.
Most people it's it's scary to take on that
(33:15):
responsibility.
It's really scary, um, but with that
foundation of of of of love, you are going
to be guided to to do something wonderful
because you are paying deep attention to
your child.
Your child will know every day of their
(33:37):
life going forward that they are always
loved by you.
It's the strength of that attention, and
homeschooling takes profound, deliberate,
sustained attention, and that's love.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Wow, thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I'm so honored to have been here and if my
work can be of help to any of your
listeners, they can find me at
johnmurelawscom.
All my contact information is there.
There's also hundreds of hours of tutorials
and resources for families or individuals
that want to do this.
I wrote a book on how to teach nature
journaling.
The entire thing is free as a download that
(34:20):
anybody can make from anywhere in the world.
I hope that these resources are really
helpful to you.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
It's been so beautiful and, like I said,
it's been an honor and thank you.
And I will include everything in the show
notes for for the everybody who wants it
will have your website.
As a matter of fact, we're going to I'm
going to even put mind traps a link to mind
traps so they can find out.
Uh, pick up a set of cards themselves.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
My daughters love those.
Like let's do a mind trap.
I mean like just think.
Every morning you're kind of trying to get
yourself to think laterally.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, what's I mean?
That's fun, that is fun.
So well, thank you again, and um, I have a
great afternoon and thank you for sharing
your talents with us so so much.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's really wonderful to be here with you.
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