Getting To Know Dana: A Candid Conversation

In this special episode of the Secret Passage Podcast, co-host Shannon Rogers interviews Dana Vespoli for an intimate look into her life and career. From her journey in the adult industry to her reflections on its challenges and evolution, Dana shares personal stories, professional insights, and her recent spiritual journey. 

 

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Secret Passage Podcast is hosted by Dana Vespoli and Shannon Rogers

Producer: Tim Rogers

Editor: Mitch Silver

 

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This podcast may contain discussions of graphic violence, unsettling themes, supernaturalphenomena, and other topics that some listeners may find disturbing or triggering.
Listener discretion is advised.
This podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The opinions expressed are simply those of the individual hosts and do not represent theprofession of psychology or constitute professional advice.

(00:38):
Welcome to the Secret Passage Podcast.
I'm Dana Vespoli.
and I'm Shannon.
And welcome to another episode.
Well.
Welcome.
Welcome.
Over, children!
All are ah

(00:59):
Welcome!
yes
Air-o-Land!
Sorry.
Don't go into the-
Yeah.
What's our favorite line?
the uh Skeeter ever taken to Pachoo's son?
I don't know, Dad.

(01:21):
Or, you removed the headstones, but you didn't move the bodies.
Why?
It's so good.
I love Poltergeist so much.
I know.
But yes, we have an update.
We did an episode on Alan and Catherine Kasanoff several weeks ago, right?

(01:45):
It was our, I think, yeah, was like our first or second episode of the second season.
It was our first episode of the second season.
And we are happy to to say that we got a message from Alan Kasanoff letting us know thatuh he's he and his daughters are doing incredibly well.

(02:07):
He's in a happy, healthy relationship.
He started he has a practice that is thriving.
His girls are thriving.
And it's just the best news.
Yeah, he's so sweet.
I was very happy that he reached out em to let us know.
I didn't realize until I heard that they were all doing well.

(02:30):
He also shared a poem that Allie wrote for him.
I didn't realize how much I was just like hurting for them and hoping, you know, thinkingI would never know how they were.
And it was just a relief to hear that all is well.
Yeah, and it really made me realize when we do these stories about people that these arehuman beings and there's only so much information we are able to get.

(03:04):
it's complicated.
Human beings are complicated and relationships are complicated.
And we were really trying to be as unbiased as possible, because there was a lot of biasesagainst Alan, actually.
And that Free Press article was the most fair, it felt like the most unbiased, most fairkind of reporting.

(03:31):
But even within that, there's only so much we can do.
So it was really nice to hear from him.
and
Yeah.
And also see that like his situation was one that would have easily destroyed someone.

(03:57):
And he and his girls got through it.
And got through it, I mean, not just like got through it, but came out the other side andare doing so well.
And that's, you you want a happy ending to that story.
Yes.
And it seems like it is.
And so it was just sweet.
was just so kind.

(04:18):
It was so kind of him to reach out to us and to let us know that anyone out there thatneeds legal services in his area, he's available.
Yeah, so like, let me just say a little bit about that.
Well, first of all, the thing you brought up about the podcasting and talking aboutpeople's lives.

(04:39):
And I have massive conflicts with this.
Like I look at true crime and the way I engage with it and I reconcile it on some level,like, and just any talking we do about people and their life experience.
It's like, I don't feel
like we are being exploitative, but I can see how people make the argument that that it'sexploitative to like take somebody's worst time or worst thing that's ever happened to

(05:10):
them and like make a show about it and discuss it and talk about the angles and you knowtell the story but with limited information like you said.
It's like eh it is uncomfortable and
I am not, it's not an easy thing for me um to do.

(05:30):
We do try to be unbiased and then we will, I will sometimes share my biases and maybe notclarifying, but I know I'm sharing a bias, but I struggle with that too.
Cause I'm like, I listen to people who just share their opinions about things and there'ssomething so refreshing about that.
And you know, I have that whole thing where I have like, it's like a phobia where I

(05:54):
hearing other people's opinions about me and sharing my opinions about things makes meanxious.
But I don't know.
I think we're doing it in the service of having, you know, a complex conversation or aconversation that can hold complexity and also with the goal of like really understanding.

(06:15):
So that helps.
Well, sure, because I mean, we came into this with our own ways in which we consumecontent.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's some really wonderful podcasts out there that convey a lot ofinformation and then we can kind of take that information and process it and try to

(06:38):
understand, you know, how do these things happen?
How do we live in a way where
we can avoid these types of things.
What kinds of situations are unavoidable?
How would I wrestle with this particular conflict, depending on what the podcast is.
And then of course, I get a lot of my education from listening to the knowledge project oryou're wrong about like these different ones.

(07:06):
um And all we can do is try to be...
fair, to be compassionate, try to be well researched in what we do.
And then honestly, we can't control how people engage with the material, you know?
And it's not for us to decide how people engage, but certainly, certainly there are peoplewho can listen purely for entertainment or they listen and they get a grotesque kind of

(07:33):
arousal at hearing like true crime, for example.
We can't control that.
But, um you know, we can do things in as good a faith as possible.
And also admit when we fuck up or are wrong and always it's like if you have a correctionor anything, let us know.
Because we're doing the best we can, but we're only human.

(07:56):
And I run off at the mouth a lot.
I had to edit that thing out I said last episode about there not being any longitudinalstudies.
And I was like, no, there's longitudinal studies.
You just haven't read them.
But yeah, I think it has value.
I I wouldn't even be doing it if it didn't.
But I really think true crime also has value.
And I think it comes from empathy mostly for us, like what we're doing.

(08:20):
trying to the effort to understand and the effort to promote like talking about thingswhile holding complexity.
But I wanted to say something about Alan and his practice.
OK, so anybody who knows anybody who has gone through a high conflict divorce and had toengage with the court's family court system knows that it is a living hell or could be a

(08:45):
living hell, especially if you have a partner who is
where it's not just high conflict where they have like a personality disorder or they havesome kind of mental illness and are vengeful.
And I just want to put a plug in for Alan and his practice because I think attorneys, it'shard to come by attorneys who have lived experience.

(09:07):
I think it's in here in his bio on his website, their divorce was like the most complex,complicated divorce in that court system.
I was like, well known that that divorce, yeah.
So I imagine that he has a lot of empathy and just skill in terms of navigating thatsystem.

(09:29):
And so if I was in the New York or New Jersey area, I would run, not walk to his officefor a representation.
He does matrimonial law and also litigation.
So general litigation.
And he's got a website.
It's Casanofflaw.com.
So K-A-S-S-E-N-O-F-F law.

(09:52):
And his phone number and email address are there on the website.
And it looks like from the testimonials on his practice site that people find his, uh justhim to be very kind and giving of his time and energy and very helpful in terms of
navigating complex cases.

(10:13):
custody and divorce.
ah Should we talk about today's episode?
Yeah, sure.
This is an easy one for me because I didn't have to really research.
This is a fun one for me because I've always, always, always wanted to be a talk showhost.
So today I'm going to be interviewing Dana and you're going to get to know a little bitmore about her professionally and personally.

(10:39):
And then as always, we, after our episodes, we record some episodes called the trap doorfor our Patreon channel.
That's not up yet.
That will be up soon.
And
We'll probably ask some more questions today after the show.
So if you want to hear more about Dana, you can subscribe to our Patreon when it's up.

(10:59):
And hear more then.
Yes.
Hell yeah.
Let's do it.
You ready?
So if something, you don't, if it's like, you can totally veto questions.
So tell us a little bit about how you got into the business.
Well, the quick answer to that is I had been an exotic dancer in San Francisco.

(11:30):
And one of the places where I worked was the Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theater, which nolonger exists.
It was just closed down.
And it was an interesting place.
It wasn't your traditional strip club.
I mean, there was a stage show, like a strip.
stripper kind of room, it was called the New York Live and that's, you of course musicwill play and a rotation of girls will come out and dance.

(11:56):
But there was also like the ultra room, which was like a peep show style attraction, Iguess you'd call it.
And there would be two girls that do like a girl, girl, sex show.
Like usually there's a theme, same thing with the Copenhagen lounge, which was like aflashlight show where people would come in and sit in the circular room on like soft, like

(12:18):
kind of
couches and have a flashlight where they would shine it on the in center of the room wherethere would be a like a girl girl kind of sex show happening and then there was the green
door room which was like a Stage that would come out you know would sort of like rise upfrom the ground and the curtains would open and there would be like six girls on there

(12:40):
kind of doing Girl girl sex stuff, and then they would be available to do like private
shows for anybody that wanted to pay and like watch them with using toys or whatever.
And that's what I did predominantly.
So I was already doing performing sex for entertainment.

(13:01):
Not just dancing.
I would dance on occasion, but my primary thing was the green door room.
And so I had an early kind of, you know, I, my inhibitions were basically gone at thatpoint and we would have porn star features and I had
uh engaged with pornography pretty early on.
uh My grandparents would go to bed early because they were old and then I would turn onthe TV and at the time there was a channel, a network called On TV and they would have,

(13:32):
had rendezvous theater and it would come out at like fucking eight o'clock.
I mean, was really early and it was porn, porn like.
there was the little voice that would say, know, Caballero Control Corporation, theworld's leading in quality adult entertainment.
And then like a porno would show.
My company did not have that.
Yeah, no, I don't know.

(13:54):
This was the early 80s.
This was in Oregon.
And it was, yeah, it was a channel called On T.
It's pretty crazy.
they had like, it was all Caballero stuff and Caballero used to be, well, I guess theworld's leading in
quality adult entertainment, uh if that woman is to be believed.

(14:14):
But it was like Ron Jeremy, Sharon Mitchell, like all like um the kind of golden age ofporn really.
And so I would watch that.
And so I became a fan, which is frightening.
And I mean, if I was doing it at 12, you see kids accessing it on their own phones.

(14:34):
that's a whole, we talked about that in another episode, but.
That's how I was engaging with it.
So I don't know, I had just like a real fascination with it.
It represented a lot of different things to me.
It felt rebellious.
It felt glamorous in a way.

(14:56):
I mean, cause this was the porn where, you know, they were filming in really, really nicelocations and, you know, playing characters that seemed to be doing well in life, you
know?
.
And I just, it felt very exciting on many different levels.
And so when I was dancing and I started, there was a girl that I went to college with whoconfided in me that she was working at Mitchell Brothers and she's making a lot of money

(15:27):
because her family made too much money for her to qualify for any good financial aid, butnot enough to be able to easily cover the cost of tuition.
Welcome to being in the middle class in America.
Yes.
But she just struck, know, and I was like, you're not addicted to drugs.
Like what's, don't understand.

(15:48):
You know, cause I had the same kind of stereotype, I guess about the kinds of people thatare, you know, that become, you know, drawn to sex work basically.
And she defied those stereotypes and she said, promise you won't tell anybody.
I'm like, I won't, but tell me about it.
Tell me about it.
Like I just wanted to know.

(16:10):
And so, you know, later on I danced at some other clubs and San Francisco is just, wassuch an interesting place in the nineties because there was such an interesting cross
section of girls that I danced with.
There were absolutely junkies.
And then there was uh one woman who was helping put her husband through fucking medicalschool.

(16:36):
There was another one that was getting her master's degree.
and then just some kind of like ragtag, know, cool kind of rockabilly chicks that, youknow, whose boyfriends were in bands and shit like that.
And so being a dancer in the Tenderloin in San Francisco just wasn't, it wasn't so crazy.

(16:57):
It was very rock and roll.
No, yeah, it was totally cool.
I remember when I was dating my ex-boyfriend and their band, they started hanging out witha couple of people who were dancers at that time.
And they would play shows in the city.
then between sets, would, or before they played, people would go to the Lusty Lady.

(17:19):
And I know, it was such a time and a place.
And Mitchell Brothers is cool and arty and also has a seedy history with the Brothers.
The Mitchell Brothers.
Yeah.
Jim killed Artie.
Yeah.
And it made a, was on forensic files, the way that they kind of reconstructed the crime.
It was so crazy.
I remember cause Jim got out of prison when I just started at Mitchell Brothers and hewould like talk to me and in the back of my head, I'm like, you killed the brother.

(17:49):
Shit.
And like our crumb like drew.
pictures of some of the girls like on the walls and stuff like near the offices.
It was really, it was a good time to be a stripper, you during the dot-com boom.
But that's, that is where I started.
And there were porn star features that would come through the club.
Like Marilyn Chambers came, Nina Hartley, uh Kylie Ireland, who I was on set withrecently, cause she does set design now.

(18:16):
And I was like, I met you in the nineties.
She goes, I probably was drunk.
because
was feature dancing.
She was a wicked contract star at the time, but I was like, got my Polaroid picture takenwith her and Terry Weigel, like just all these different people.
And I would, I would talk to them and, and I was a fan of, of their work and things likethat.
And so it was not a huge leap to then move to Los Angeles.

(18:44):
And at the time I moved to LA, I was doing like mainstream commercial work and things, butSAG was constantly going on strike and I was running out of money.
and I started doing PA and second AD work on a soft core, soft core stuff for Playboy TV.
Yeah, and then I would talk to different industry people and stuff, because a lot of likethe hardcore performers would also do soft core and I would talk to them.

(19:12):
And they were like, why aren't you doing porn?
Like, you know so much about like, I mean, you're such a fan of like,
these porn stars like, why aren't you just doing it?
And I was like, I don't know.
And I realized there was really, the only reason that I wasn't was because I was worriedabout what people would think of me.
But I'm like, dude, my close friends like saw me through my girl, girl sex shows atMitchell Brothers and didn't really care.

(19:35):
So that's how I got in.
Basically, I went to Jim South, who was like the probably one of the first porn agentsever.
And I went to his office and then that's how it began.
That's how I got in.
Awesome.
I remember when you first started dancing, I had so many questions.

(19:56):
It was just such a bold move.
And it just seemed like the right move.
Yeah, it's funny because that's how I got in.
The why sex work is a question I've been grappling with for a very, very long time.

(20:17):
And it's a less...
Yeah.
You know, it's more complicated.
It's a lot more complicated.
And that one is, you know, it's hard.
I hesitate to ever really go into it because I don't want to be one of those people that'slike, trauma is what led me to sex work because it fits a stereotype.

(20:46):
But I mean, it is a reason why a lot of...
not just women, but people like men find their way into sex work.
But that's not everyone.
And I know that's not everyone because I have friends who got into sex work that didn'tcome from broken homes or were victims of sexual assault or anything like that.

(21:09):
But for me personally, I think that I learned really, really early, unfortunately, that Icould essentially
that my value was linked closely with my physical body.
And so, you know, I was, you know, molested at an early age.

(21:32):
I didn't get the adults that were supposed to help me didn't.
And I learned I was sexualized by older men at an early age, not just being, having beenmolested by a family friend, but just also men being inappropriate.
And
Also at the same time, you I was dealing with a lot of kind of like racial subjugation,but also fetishized.

(22:02):
Being, you know, a half Asian girl and woman, it was this weird dance of being othered.
And then also, again, that kind of thing it's like, but I'm good for this.
Right, right, you're so exotic.
Exactly.
And so it was just, was, it was, I think also a case of getting these, these, thesemessages early, not getting the, you know, the, the, protection I carried that.

(22:37):
And then as I grew older, I was also always involved in activities that really forced thishypervigilance about my physical body.
with, I was like a child model.
And I was hearing that at five, seven, I needed to be a hundred pounds.

(22:59):
So I of course could never maintain it a hundred pounds.
I was chronically dieting.
was also a dancer and girls in the company I was in girls would be put on probation ifthey got too heavy.
So there was the constant fear of being seen as too heavy.
Mm-hmm.
So this preoccupation with my physical body and then also that my physical body isregarded in this certain way.

(23:26):
And it created very complicated relationships with men.
And I didn't grow up with a father.
So there's that as well.
So my interactions with men were always bizarre.
uh Not all men, of course, I had some wonderful teachers and stuff, but there was a lot uhof kind of

(23:48):
inappropriateness.
And so there was a logical next step to leveraging my physical body as a, a, as as a meansto, for validation and money.
And yeah.
So there's that one side where I kind of did everything I was supposed to.
I did fine in high school.

(24:09):
I did a lot of activities in high school.
I went to college.
I
you know, played sports in college.
I graduated from college.
had friends who, you know, went on to law school, medical school, all that kind of stuff.
But there was this other side where I was, you know, engaging in a lot of kind of weirdsex and engaging in some self harm and preoccupied with this kind of fringe

(24:46):
world that I felt was more accepting of me and I felt that I felt made more sense to me.
And so I kind of was toying both lines and uh that's kind of the, you this is where I'mlanding as far as the why.
And it's not sexy, but it's the truth.

(25:07):
you know, and the business has been, I've gotten a lot of, I mean, I've met a lot ofreally wonderful and kind people and I've,
also met a lot of really horrible people, as you would expect.
But I think that's why my trajectory was different than a lot of other people's.
Yeah, I think the truth is very sexy.

(25:32):
The truth is hot.
But no, for real.
mean, like I always, you know, when you were making the leap into dancing, that was kindof around the time, you know, I had my rock and roll boyfriend.
um We became we were friends before.
And I remember at the time just really looking up to you for being able to like.

(25:55):
well, first of all, perform without passing out or freezing like I would.
em And then to enter that world.
And I get that it's totally tied to a lot of things.
And I don't want to dwell on this too much.
But one thing I always wondered about too with like, well, dancing.
mean, dancers' relationship with their body.

(26:16):
You were the first person that told me dancers beat up their bodies.
Like dancers drink and they smoke and all those things.
And I was like, that's so interesting.
Right?
Because a lot of your friends back in the day were like smoking and drinking and they weredancers, right?
Yeah, yeah.
mean, they were, are you talking about strippers?
Yeah, the modern dancers and the ballerinas and stuff.

(26:39):
Oh yeah.
mean, well, modern dancers, the great thing about modern, especially with certaincompanies like Bill T.
Jones, Arnie Zane and company had such a, like an amazing, it was a very body positivecompany, if I recall correctly, but modern dancers, there was a little more flexibility
with body types.

(27:00):
You'd see a lot of very athletic bodies, a lot of curvy bodies and that these
different bodies could do such beautiful movement.
uh The ballerinas, it's a different story.
There's a very kind of specific aesthetic tied to it.
And so you would see a lot of dieting and smoking and all that kind of thing.

(27:23):
Not all of them.
Some of them were lucky enough to kind of just genetically have the ideal ballerina bodytype.
Uh-huh, the ectomorph body.
like, but that shocked me.
And I remember thinking at the time, yeah, it's just an interesting relationship with yourbody, that it's someone's watching it.

(27:44):
Like, you have to sort of relate to it in a different way than most people do, have torelate to their bodies.
But the thing about childhood, like child abuse, know, sexual abuse is I always wonderedtoo, just about the boundary thing.
Do you think that's a part of it too?
just having your boundaries sort of violated and it changes the way you feel like, I don'tknow.

(28:06):
Is that part of it at all?
Yeah, so like a lot of kids, I thought that I somehow did that I was the I it was myfault.
And I think I also as a way to cope, perhaps, I think I wanted to downplay it in my ownmind.

(28:38):
and then try to see it any kind of male attention or any kind of validation that I gotfrom my physical body as empowering.
And it's not empowering, know, making, being able to earn your own money, set your ownschedule, make your own rules, that's empowering.
The way in which I was doing it is not in and of itself empowering because it's predicatedon me having a good night.

(29:07):
Yeah.
At the club.
You know, if I'm, if I'm sitting on the, and there were times, you know, it was thenineties at Mitchell brothers and fucking people were coming in with a lot of money to
spend.
And if I just basically sat there doing nothing and walked out of the club with a thousanddollars, which at that time was a lot of money for really, you know, one evening, of

(29:27):
course I feel empowered, but what about the evening when some guy insults me for, youknow, my, my body or just not being pretty enough to him?
and I barely make $20.
Is it still empowering work?
ah No, it's not.
And that's the thing.
I can have a day, like when I was walking dogs at the pet resort, and I can have a shittyday where maybe the manager was not nice or some of the customers were dicks that came in

(29:56):
to drop off their dogs or pick them up.
But the work itself is good.
The work itself is I'm taking care of these animals.
The work itself is these animals trust me and I have their best interest at heart.
The work itself is honorable.
The work itself can be seen as empowering.
And that's the thing.

(30:17):
When I'm making my living based on if a guy thinks I'm hot enough to give money to, that'snot empowering.
And so I say all that and I had wonderful times at that club.
I still dream about working there sometimes.
I had wonderful...
evenings, you I loved dancing, you know, and I would get to play the music that I reallyliked on stage when, you know, the nights when I was dancing and just fucking have the

(30:42):
best time dancing.
And I loved the DJs that work there.
They were cool.
And a lot of the employees were wonderful people.
lot of the girls were incredible.
But the work itself is it is what it is, you know, but I'm not going to I'm not going topretend like like there was anything empowering about it.
I mean, I
got myself out of debt, making my own money.

(31:04):
I did get to set my own schedule.
I did, you know, that shit was great.
But, you know, I have to be honest.
uh There were those nights where I left feeling like crap and the guys were horrible.
Like that's, it is what it is.
But it's hard not to personalize something that has to do with you and your body.

(31:26):
You know, so, yeah.
But I think that I lied to myself and said it was empowering.
I saw the way that men looked at me as somehow powerful and I think it stems back from.
you know, learning early that my value was tied to my body.

(31:51):
Yeah, totally.
mean, I feel like that just we get that programming just as women.
Sure.
Right?
Like, yeah, better be cute.
uh So want to have another question?
OK, so in terms of like working with people in the industry, who have been your favoritepeople to perform with?

(32:17):
to perform with, okay.
Let me see that, well, definitely there's a performer, Annika Albright, which is one of myfavorite people to work with.
The late John Doe, who died in 2006, but I only, I worked with him twice, but I don't knowwhy I had a really nice connection with him.

(32:37):
I actually wrote, I wrote about him in my master's thesis years ago.
And what was it about working with him?
He, I just, he was a very intense, was a very just tormented soul.
you know, he's very broody, but I don't know why I felt like I connected with him in someway.

(33:03):
Like there was like a chemistry there.
And I just remember having a really nice moment with him just before he was, it wasactually a scene that he was directing.
I wasn't in the scene with him, but we were just sort of talking.
about travel or something like that.
And I just sense there was a lot of depth there with him.

(33:24):
I don't know why, it just kind of resonated with me.
And I didn't know him really well.
I just had been on set with him a few times and had worked with him twice.
And then when he died, I just remember having like really weird bad dreams.
And then I read about his life later and he had really...

(33:45):
bent through it.
And um it all made sense, like why he was somebody who struggled so much.
He had addiction issues and couldn't stay clean to save his life and then took his ownlife in 2006.
So he was someone though that I just, I don't know why he was a very compelling figure,especially because I worked with him early in my career.

(34:13):
So him.
Just good chemistry, you know, and also, uh, who else?
Bella Donna.
I really liked Bella Donna a lot.
I worked with her one time, but I really liked her.
And let me see.

(34:34):
I did really good scenes with Isaiah Maxwell.
I liked Shawn Michaels and
Who else?
There's so many.
I mean, I did some really great scenes.
Probably the best scene.
I think this will sort of like be of interest to anyone who's like, you know, well, whatis the best scene?

(34:58):
Because it's also with two people that would be on that list.
The best scene, I think, in my entire career so far is a scene that I did with Ramon Nomarand Valentina Nappi.
and it was in a movie called Boy Girl.
It was my movie that I also directed.

(35:20):
It's the best scene I've ever done.
And it was with those two people.
It's when there is this synergy, when there's just this weird kind of dance that all ourbodies were doing.
It's like we couldn't, there was no awkwardness in it.
It was a really, really great scene.
scene.

(35:40):
uh
that I've, it's probably the best scene I will ever do because I just don't do those kindsof scenes anymore.
It's just that those scenes don't exist anymore, really.
They're rare, I should say.
They do exist, but no one is really shooting those anymore where it's just good, strong,kind of athletic sex.

(36:00):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Now they're all into, like, incest fantasies.
exactly.
But you're my stepmom and you're my stepdad and I'm 20 but acting like I'm 13.
Yeah.
So who are your people that you really like in the industry just personally, like yourfriends or people you like?

(36:21):
People I like.
Well, of course, uh the first person that comes to mind is Kayden Cross, uh who's um justamazing.
I love her so much.
And she is not just somebody from the industry that I like and consider a friend.
She's just like one of the closest people to me.

(36:42):
We call each other sister wife.
Because she's married to my ex-husband, Manuel.
And I just, it's one of those funny things where she and I just, it's, my joke is alwayslike the best thing to come out of that relationship aside from my children uh with Manuel
is Kayden.

(37:03):
Cause I get her.
She's just great.
So just whip smart, so intelligent, so talented as a writer, as a director.
uh She's like a
she's kind of like this frontier woman.
Like she's got this farm and she just is out there by herself, like just, you know, makingmulch and washing horses and just planting gardens and all that.

(37:33):
Like she's, it's just funny because if you look at her, you wouldn't realize she's ashearty as she is, but definitely her, you know, amazingly wonderful.
And it's just funny because I feel like,
I don't know that our paths would have ever crossed had it not been for Manuel, but that'swhat happened.

(37:55):
So I love her and Jackie St.
James, who is uh a director in the business, another just wonderful, bright, funny, uhsmart, talented woman.
John Staliano, who he was a director, he's known as Buttman.

(38:17):
He started Evil Angel, that's his company, and it's a company that I directed for for adecent amount of time.
And uh he is also famous for having to go before the Supreme Court on an obscenity chargefor a movie he made called Milk Nymphos.
Milk Nymphos?

(38:39):
Milk Nymphos, because they were shooting milk out of their asses and it was, you know.
ah
So that is an interesting bit of history, like legal history as well.
But he's just a deeply philosophical man.
Another like super bright, very, very libertarian.

(39:03):
It's always great.
You can't have a conversation with John Staliano without getting into this debate about,you he's a libertarian and about politics or, you know, also pornography and...
He reads a lot and all that, but he's someone that I always thought was really great.
I'm thinking just in terms of people that I've spent the most time with.

(39:27):
There's a lot of people I actually really like, but I don't know them that well, but theseare the people that I've actually spent the most time around.
um
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Cool.
Anybody else?
We can move on because otherwise we'll just be here all day.
But I'm trying to think, I try to narrow it by going, who have I actually spent like quitea bit of time around?

(39:52):
Yeah.
Um, let's see.
I have so many fun ones I can ask.
Like what's one of the funniest things that's happened on a set?
There's a lot.
uh Okay, here's, here's, this is funny.
So I was pregnant in, this was in, so this was 2006 and I was pregnant.

(40:13):
I was directing and I was shooting camera and I had gotten sick bronchitis or something.
And there's nothing, I mean, being sick sucks being sick when you're pregnant and you'relimited on the types of medication you can take is next level, but we had to shoot a
scene.
And I had two performers and I'm like, hold.

(40:34):
And so this, this one particular male performer, it was Michael Stefano.
I'll just say that because there's nothing insulting that happened.
It was Michael Stefano and a girl who went by the name Mia Bang.
And they were setting, he was setting up for the pop shot.
And so sometimes, you know, guys in the business can, they call it fuck to pop, right?

(40:54):
So they can, they can.
have sex and then when they are ready to ejaculate just go right to it.
And some guys just because of fatigue sometimes just because they're real particular aboutthe ways in which they do well they call it setting up to pop so in the old days it was
and they still do it now sometimes the guy is standing there and he's jerking off and thegirl is like kind of like kneeling down in front to wait for the pop to like go on her

(41:20):
face or her tits or in her mouth or whatever.
And Michael Stefano
was really OCD about certain things.
he, you know, normally I would stop the camera and just wait and then hear the guys say,okay, I'm ready.
And then turn the camera on, right?
Just stay in position, but like turn the camera off.

(41:41):
He wanted the camera to keep running just in case.
And this was back when, mean, Mike was working constantly.
So sometimes uh his pop shot was gonna take a while, but I had to fucking keep the cameragoing.
And I didn't know when it was gonna come.
And I'm holding it in position and I feel like I need to fucking cough, because I'm Andthe problem is, is if I cough, we have to start over, like not the scene, but like it

(42:11):
starts the process.
And this couldn't take 15 minutes.
just...
So I look over at the photographer and I make motion with my eyes to hold the camera justin case in the position I had it in.
So he quietly comes over, Mike has his eyes closed.
He doesn't see what's going on.
Mia's probably just thinking about what she's gonna eat for lunch.

(42:33):
And he takes the camera and I quickly walk down the hall, out of the house, down thedriveway a little bit, cough as hard as I can to get it out, quickly walk back in.
Michael still hasn't popped yet.
Take the camera from the photographer as though nothing happened.
Michael had no idea this happened.

(42:53):
his eyes were closed.
it was that that's, that's one of the, there's a lot, but I'll never forget that.
Cause I was like, I can't like, yeah.
And he, I recall correctly, he popped pretty quickly after.
my God.
Yeah, way to go though.
Like way to get the shot and get your cough.

(43:16):
I am resourceful.
I'm a problem solver.
Yeah, exactly.
That was pretty flexy.
God, I can just imagine.
I can so imagine the stuff that happens.
If you think of anything else, we can talk about it on our after episode too.
Sure.
em So one thing I wanted to talk about today, because we've talked about it often, as aveteran in the industry, you have a really interesting perspective over time.

(43:46):
And as somebody who started engaging with porn at 12 when it was a different animal, whatare some of the main issues you see with the industry as it is currently and where it's
headed, like in terms of content and everything?
Anything, even technology or, you know.

(44:07):
Well, one of my main concerns is just how easily accessible it is.
That's one thing, and that's not just for minors.
It's also for people that are clearly addicted to it, addicted to the content and whatit's doing to people's personal relationships.

(44:30):
Because the bottom line is this, like, I have...
I had this friend back in the day who could go out one night and do a bunch of coke andnot touch it again for years.
He's like, coke's not my problem.
Like I enjoy it.
I do it sometimes.
What's the big deal?

(44:51):
Then there's people who will do a line of coke and then within a few weeks have like ahefty eight ball a day habit.
Yeah.
And then they lose their job.
And then they end up like turning tricks out of a, out of a motel six.
downtown.
It's safe to say that cocaine is just sort of generally kind of dangerous, you know?

(45:15):
You can't get rid of it, you know?
And for those that can kind of do it as like a leisurely activity here and there, that'sfine.
But there's also people that lose everything because of it.
And I think the porn is similar.
Yeah.
You know, I'm not trying to get rid of it.

(45:36):
Obviously, it's how I make my fucking living right now, you know, but there are definitelyproblems.
We can't pretend like people don't end up addicted to it or that it ruins people'srelationships or their own relationship to their own bodies or their relationships to how
they approach being intimate with someone else.
And there's just too much evidence out there of how it's fucking up like young people aswell.

(46:01):
And so that's one thing.
I mean, that's the primary thing I think is that it's naive.
And I know there's a lot of people in my industry that are very black and white about itand insist that it's fine.
And it just isn't.
And the type of content that's being made as well, I think is really depraved.
The uh family role play shit is gross.

(46:25):
And it is 100%.
It feels like it's a dog whistle for pedophiles.
To legally procure
material that they can fantasize is actual.
that's, you know, getting the legal shit out of the way quickly, saying, I'm your stepmomand I'm 18.

(46:47):
And then quickly getting into the stuff where the girl is saying mommy, mommy, mommy.
And they're relating to this girl that's a legal adult as though she is in elementaryschool.
That is pedophilic.
That's pedophile dog whistling.
And it's disgusting.
And, you know, obviously there are scenes of me out there engaging with it going, this isweird, this is weird.

(47:10):
And here's the thing that I want to make clear is I have personally, I have never been ona set where that kind of content is being made.
And every single person in the room, it hates it and wishes it didn't exist.
It's the companies that are demanding this material.
But a lot of the directors, their hands are tied because they need to keep their job, butthey're completely

(47:34):
find it revolting.
There's talent.
I won't do those kinds of scenes anymore.
It's so wild.
mean, what is it, like the algorithm or something?
they just, where are they getting that this is stuff that people want to be watching?
I think because it is, and I think that the problem is that, and you actually brought thisup ah when we did our episode on, I forgot the episode it was, but the studies were

(48:01):
showing that viewers were becoming so desensitized that they were ramping up what theywanted to see.
And that's why.
It's so wild because you think like escalation, that's like jumping ponds or something.
That's like, I guess it's like going from going like a serial killer going from killinganimals to killing humans.

(48:23):
It's like, it seems so odd that someone's preferences would change that much.
Like if you're watching straightforward porn to begin with, then all of a sudden it couldlead to you.
I mean, it does, I know that it does, but that it could lead to you suddenly wanting towatch like,
pedophilic kind of porn, it just blows my mind.

(48:45):
There's one girl in the business who looks, it's not her fault, I feel so bad for her.
She looks so young, but she's, you know, she's an adult.
She's in her mid twenties, I think, but she just, her body type and her face, if you, youknow, she's just talking regular, you can hear that she's a grown woman.

(49:06):
She just looks very young and the kind of custom requests that she gets for her OnlyFansis sick.
It's sick.
And she's always cast in these roles because she looks so, young.
And she's had breakdowns because of it.
She's had to take breaks from work because it fucks with her so badly.

(49:28):
And she, you know, it's again, it becomes that thing where she is experiencing a lot ofshame, but she's also in a situation where it's her bread and butter.
But like, it's just crazy that it has to, that
it is that way, you know?
Feedback loop is so scary.
It's like right at bottom.

(49:50):
like if they're adapting to, they're escalating people with the content and then they'readapting to these like sort of escalated sexual fantasies that are like, legal.
that's the thing.
We talked about this with um the kidfluencer thing with Ren Eleanor and some of thesepeople going, what are you talking about?

(50:11):
Just because I posted a picture of my daughter in a bikini, just because I posted apicture of my daughter with her popsicle, why are you being perverted?
it's like, a lot of these guys know that they're not safe going on the dark web.
So they get this safe content and uh they shape it to their needs.
And we are
fucking Taylor making that content with the family roleplay shit.

(50:33):
Yeah, that's so gnarly.
Yeah.
And it's naive to think otherwise.
Not all these pedophiles are trying to get actual child exploitation material like on thedark web.
A lot of them can't safely do it.
They know that they'll get in trouble.
Yeah, the FBI.
So those are some, I mean, there's plenty.

(50:55):
mean, AI is making shit weird.
And as far as like where pornography is headed, I mean, it's predominantly in the hands ofuh I think content creators.
It used to be, you can even see it at ABN.
People can make their own porn with AI.
Yeah, they can take porn stars and make them, I mean, you've seen some really crazy, awfulstuff where they've done edits where it looks like, you know, Taylor Swift is taking on

(51:26):
like a football team or something like that.
Like they've shown what they can do with it.
Absolutely.
But you know, the evolution of porn is an interesting one.
Well, you know what we should do is in January, you and I should go to the AVN show andjust walk around the convention and look.
oh
See, I haven't been and gosh, like the last time I went to the AVN was, was that Januaryof 2019?

(51:52):
I think it was.
That's a conference, yeah, that's a...
It's a convention and it culminates in an award show, which I haven't attended one ofthose in a really long time.
But the convention itself is interesting because they have booths.
But a lot of it is like content creators.
used to be companies like Vivid, Wicked, Evil Angel, Anabolic, Hustler, know, thesedifferent companies and there'd be girls signing these booths.

(52:21):
And now, like a lot of those companies either no longer exist or have been absorbed bylike gamma.
And so a lot of what you'll see is like toy manufacturers, like uh StreamMate,Chatterbait, like a lot of these streaming platforms like that, or I'm sorry, webcam

(52:44):
companies.
And then like Fansly.
I don't know if OnlyFans has one there, but like, you can see where the industry is nowjust based on what is at the convention when you're walking the floor.
And so everything has gone the way of like OF creators, uh webcam girls, you know, there'sa real push for a lot of these adult creators to kind of be influencers as well.

(53:18):
Wow, yeah, we've talked about Bonnie Blue and Lily, Lil.
uh OK, that's really interesting.
And we should unpack that more at some point, like have a larger conversation just aboutthe industry.
Maybe when we go to AVN, we could go and do an episode.
we can do a podcast there.

(53:40):
That's actually, we should plan on it actually.
Okay, do you know where it's gonna be?
It's yeah, it's always the same place.
Vegas?
Yeah, it's always Las Vegas and I believe it's at Resorts World.
I'll get more information on it.
Okay.
Okay.
I would love to, that'd be so fun.
Yeah.
And we can go see the thunder from down under.
Yes.
Yeah, I'm not even kidding.

(54:07):
So let me switch gears and ask you some questions about, and I have more questions aboutthe industry, but we can save those uh for later.
uh so would you like to tell us a bit?
know that you have been on a new spiritual journey.
And would you like to say a bit about your faith journey that you're on?
Yes.

(54:27):
First of all, I know that I refer to it as a faith journey and it all started with me justconstantly referring to everything as a journey to be funny, like fitness journey.
I was like, know, Poochie, my pug is he's on a fitness journey right now, like that.
And so it sounds so corny.

(54:47):
I just don't want people to think like, my God, what a goof.
She's like,
No, I love it.
I love it.
No, because I watch The Bachelor and they always say something about the journey.
Yeah, my health journey, my s- yeah.
Okay.
My healing journey.
Yeah.
Okay, but it is, I mean, it is a process.

(55:08):
It's a journey.
It is a journey.
yeah, because I'm sure that there are some people who are maybe that have followed mycareer for a while or have followed me on social media and maybe a little perplexed as to
uh my, I call it a call to Christianity, because there's really no other way to see it forme.

(55:30):
Historically, I was always,
kind of agnostic.
I believed in something because there had been times in my life where there was clearlyeither something supernatural that happened or whatever.
ah I believed in something.
I didn't know what it was and I didn't call it God.
uh My father was a devout Buddhist his whole life and I had had some run-ins withMormonism and Catholicism.

(55:58):
Not me personally, but like I had a kind of a mean Mormon babysitter.
when I was little.
Yeah, she was mean, right?
Moments are so fucking nice.
oh Well, it's one of those things where looking back on it, she was like a child bride.
She was 19, married to this man, had already had two kids, and then was babysitting me.

(56:22):
And I think that it was hard.
Yeah, she was 19 and I was this kid who, I think she knew that my mom like,
like drank and smoked and shit like that.
And I just remember her just like shoving a Bible in my hands.
Like we're talking a Bible with like thee, thou, thine, hard for me to understand.

(56:46):
You know, it was like seven and she told me to read it and I couldn't.
And then I was punished for it.
I had a very sour perspective towards religion.
And then in, you know, in
the Catholics don't get me started on Catholic school, man.
I talk about some bullies, some bullies and a priest that uh bummed me out because he toldme animals don't have souls.

(57:13):
Now in my Christian journey, can, there's, there's, there's, can actually point to likebiblical texts that suggests that God made animals with souls.
anyway,
he told you animals have no soul
how old are you?
he was, someone told me to talk to him to console me about the fact that my, one of mycats died and that he came at me with that.

(57:36):
And he was trying to be nice.
He was like an older Catholic priest.
It was weird though, cause he was a, no, he was, was he a Jesuit?
No, he wasn't a Jesuit.
The Jesuit priests are a lot more cool.
In an effort to comfort me, I guess he was like, I was like, well, I see my, you know,well, I see my uh cat in, in heaven.
goes, well,

(57:57):
You know, God will take care of you, but, you know, basically it's like doubtful.
And I was like, I'm going to go do porn.
No, just kidding.
I can't, I can't handle all you fucked up adults.
Look at me now.
No, just kidding.
Just kidding.
Totally joking.

(58:17):
Well, I just, love to point to any childhood trauma and then be like, and is it anywonder?
I did rough anal sex on screen.
Hahaha!
So all that to say that my, didn't have a great relationship with, like specifically thosewere my two experiences.

(58:38):
Like I would go to Mormon church with uh that family, you know, and then I was going toCatholic school and was a baptized Catholic.
My mom actually like decided to become Catholic because I was going to Catholic school anduh stuff.
And listen, the mass, we, uh
Jeez, Easter mass, midnight mass for Christmas.

(58:59):
I mean, these were beautiful.
Like there's so much beauty in like the tradition and the ritual of the Catholic church.
And there were some wonderful people.
My experience though sucked.
So, you know, I was kind of just going on in my life, was really into a lot of self-help,you know, uh tried like yoga and kind of like Eastern.

(59:22):
kind of philosophical stuff.
I remember going to a Buddhist monastery and doing like a 90 minute meditation, which waspowerful, but none of this stuff really resonated with me.
And so it was just one of those things where I always felt like I had a natural kind ofbody for yoga and like an aptitude for it, but it just, I was someone that always really

(59:46):
needed more aggro shit, like boxing, like striking.
And so that's kind of where my energy went.
So yoga was a no-go.
Anyway, all that to say, I'm just going about my life.
I'm a pretty philosophical person and into logic and reasoning for the most part, know,very academic.

(01:00:10):
And one day I was, and you remember this, cause I came out to the fucking car afterwardsand immediately sent you a message cause I was tripping out.
I was at Equinox in Westlake village.
minding my own business as I do.
was in the gym getting ready to go out.
So I was like on my way out of the locker room and there's like the little tiny like kindof hallway.

(01:00:32):
And then like someone was walking in.
It was this young woman, totally normal looking.
And she stops me and she says, I'm supposed to tell you that God loves you.
And I said, I just looked at her and I said, thanks.
And then she smiled and kept going.
So she didn't like stand there with me and grip my arm and like try to like witness to me.

(01:00:57):
She didn't say it even in a weird way.
She was almost like, oh, you dropped your water bottle.
It was like that kind of thing or oh, your shoe's untied.
Like that was- me chills.
Yeah, it was weird.
It was unusual.
so I'm like, she's not crazy.
She doesn't seem crazy.
she can afford an Equinox membership.

(01:01:19):
she's an equinox.
She's doing something.
I'm not there anymore, by the way.
If anyone goes there and is like, I'm probably going to see Dana Vespoly.
I couldn't justify the cost.
And I'm at Fitness 19.
Or no, now I'm at the Y, which is even cheaper.
It's so good.
Anyway, back to this.
So I go and I do my workout and I'm just tripping out.

(01:01:40):
I'm like, that was so interesting.
So she had finished.
I went back into the locker room.
And then I went into like, have a steam room and I was in the steam room and she was inthe steam room, but she was like sitting off to the side, just steaming, not acting crazy,
minding her own business.
And then I finished my steam, took a shower, got dressed.
She was gone by the time I left and then I left you a message.

(01:02:03):
And so that stuck with me as strange.
Yeah.
A year, so it took about a year and a half.
And I remember telling people, I'm like, the weirdest thing happened, the strangest thinghappened.
A year and a half later, I suddenly, so then that would have been this past summer.

(01:02:25):
I started feeling this overwhelming urge to find a church.
Not a Catholic church, not a Presbyterian church, like nothing again, nothing againstthese religions specifically.
But just like a non-denominational Christian church, I found myself wanting to find one.

(01:02:46):
I don't know how to describe it except that it felt like I was compelled to.
ah I don't know why.
Felt like I was compelled to.
And I found Atmosphere Church online and...
I started watching their, it's so crazy nowadays, because the last time I had been in achurch was, I think maybe when I was in college, I went to...

(01:03:13):
uh
Unitarian.
It was the one, it was in downtown San Francisco and it's like sort of attached to-Cathedral?
Grace Cathedral, yes.
No, no, not Grace.
I've been in Grace Cathedral before.
It was like one of those churches where everyone is just singing and clapping and happy.
Oh, Yeah, it was like a Baptist church with someone.

(01:03:35):
it was, I mean, the music was, everyone was singing.
It was beautiful.
oh,
I know somebody who's saying for that.
It was, I know what you're talking about.
There's a choir, right?
Oh shoot, what's the name of it?
Okay, I'll think of it.
Okay.
And if anybody listening knows, please let us know.
But yeah, everything, everything has changed.
So like there was even an app for atmosphere and there was a media you could, glide.

(01:04:03):
That's glide.
It's glide.
was glide.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And so I watched like they have these series that they do, you know, where they go through
different things like Romans Road.
So it's like the book of Romans and the pastor was just, he's like my age, super cool.
And I watched like a whole kind of series that they did.

(01:04:28):
And then I went.
So after probably a few weeks of watching these and then I went and then I startedreading, I...
decided to start reading the Bible.
started with the New Testament, I finished, I'm reading the Old Testament now.
I pray every day.
And I don't know how to explain it.

(01:04:49):
I think that this was a call and my life is better because of it.
I think that I'm a better person.
um just a more, know, when I say a better person, just, I'm definitely.
more thoughtful and I don't know how to explain it.

(01:05:12):
There's a piece that I have inside of me that defies human understanding.
That it is at my core and that is what I feel and I pray and I have felt the presence ofGod or the Holy Spirit or God through the Holy Spirit.
That has been my experience.
And it's funny because my partner asked me like,

(01:05:34):
why did you choose Christianity?
Why couldn't you have chosen Buddhism?
And I said, because it wasn't my choice.
This wasn't my choice.
If it had been a choice, I would have chosen Buddhism because it's kind of like it's in myDNA a little bit, my dad and my parents were married in a Buddhist ceremony.
And are you kidding?
Like, course, if it was a choice I was going to make, I would have chosen something thatmade sense to me, uh

(01:06:04):
what I like to think of myself as a rational thinking person.
This was not a choice.
This was something else.
But yeah, I was like, it is definitely something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
it's my policy is like, I wear uh a cross.
I only take it off to take a shower.

(01:06:25):
I wear it because I'm not gonna hide who I am.
I'm not gonna hide the thing that has only.
made my life so much better that I believe has made me just a better human being.
I'm still working on it.
I still sin.
Obviously this is a process.
But it's there for people.
I'm not hiding it.
If you wanna talk to me about it, please do.

(01:06:48):
But I'm not going to, you know, like, especially on set, walk up to somebody and say like,hey, you wanna talk about Jesus?
You know, not gonna, that's not me.
That's not me.
Yeah, yeah.
If anybody asks me about it, I'm very, very honest.
Hmm.
I'm so happy that we got a chance to talk about that today.

(01:07:12):
And I know we're kind of like getting close to the end.
I have a bunch more questions, but I appreciate it so much because I feel like sometimeswe hide the best parts of ourselves and it's important.
I don't know.
think the more we talk about this kind of thing, the more it's normalized.
And I don't know.

(01:07:33):
There's something about just being open and honest and forward with it that's reallyinspiring.
Well, I guess I think we'll just maybe end here.
Sure.
I have a bazillion other questions for you, unless you want to answer some real quick, funquestions.
Sure.
uh

(01:07:53):
answer some real quick fun ones.
uh
One, you can only pick one.
I can only pick one?
That's it.
You can have two runner-ups.
You pick one band, two runner-ups.
This is so hard.
I know.
I love music.
What's yours?
You know I love Destroyer.

(01:08:15):
Dan Behar, if you're listening, I hope if he, if I knew he was listening, I wouldn't beable to speak.
But I love, you know, we we love similar, like we both love Radiohead.
Yeah, I don't listen to Radiohead as much anymore.
I don't either at all.
hates them.
Yeah, I don't blame him for hating Radiohead.
I understand.

(01:08:37):
But, you know, was saying, you know, I think OK Computer is probably one of the bestalbums of all time.
it's it's definitely played a was a deeply influential to me just as I just as a a personin my 20s like that.

(01:08:58):
That was like for the 90s, that was like my fucking album.
you know?
ah But as a band right now, probably Electric Light Orchestra.
That's so funny.
I was totally thinking that.
You're going to say that.
Yeah, I can't help it.
Like I just I love them as a band.
Yeah, I really do.

(01:09:20):
But again, that's not the only band I love.
Like obviously I love the Pixies and yeah.
Fleetwood Mac would be up at the top for me.
Fleetwood Mac's amazing too.
I mean, it's just, hard if you love music.
Hard, yeah.
Like Celine Dion.
I mean, come on.
Wait, you're I'm just kidding.

(01:09:41):
I was not gonna yuck your yum if you love Celine.
She's got pipes, you know.
oh
Yeah, so, okay, let me get to another one here.
What is your favorite skincare product?
have a few.
There's, like low recipe a lot.

(01:10:01):
I like low recipe.
I also use this Tatcha moisturizer during the day.
I use like a lot of products from the ordinary for like lactic acid and all that, youknow, I'm 52.
So I have a lot of stuff to deal with with aging skin, et cetera.

(01:10:21):
But those are the ones.
We should totally do like a partial, a short episode about all the products we love asaging women.
My God, if I shared my routine with you, it'd just be like, ugh, it's so overwhelming.
em How about this one?
One more.
What is your favorite horror movie?

(01:10:44):
That's a tough one too.
I think I know what you'll say, but you can say more than one.
Just how about three?
I'll do three.
Obviously I have an enduring love of The Shining.
I everyone knows that.
I also really love, I love the movie Talk to Me.
I think it was a perfect, a perfect horror movie.

(01:11:04):
It really was.
And they have those brothers, I think they're brothers.
They have a new one coming out called Bring Her Back that's coming out at the end of thismonth.
Talk to me with so.
oh It was just amazing.
And then a third one, horror movie.
Oh shit.
I'm trying to think.

(01:11:26):
I have a soft spot for the Slayer.
Remember when I had you watch that it was on YouTube?
Oh, the Slayer.
Wait a minute.
the slayer where that that woman goes on that to that island.
Oh yeah I don't know why but that movie really hit me.
That is like my tourist trap, think.

(01:11:47):
Tourist ah trap is so freaky.
I know the one you're missing.
Martyrs.
Martyrs are tough one, man.
That one is heavy on so many levels.
It's a great one, though.
That would definitely be in my top five.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:12:08):
I, yeah.
On your recommendation, I watched it and I, it was, it was really just hard, hard towatch, but also really paid off in the end.
Like, Like what a movie.
Like what a, what a journey.
Yeah, no shit, right?
That's a horror journey.
It took you on a horror journey, like an existential horror journey.

(01:12:32):
Yes.
As only the French can, right?
With that ending, holy shit.
I can do this for a lot longer, but let's do more on the trap door.
go down the door.
And thank you everybody for listening and...
Oh my God, you're the least boring person in the world.

(01:12:55):
But I'm biased.
then, uh okay.
Yeah.
And follow us.
gosh.
I just want to say to everyone, we're getting new followers and...
likes and ratings and stuff.
So thanks so much for.
you so much, seriously.
and follow us on Instagram at Secret Passage Podcast and then follow us on X at SecretPass Pod.

(01:13:19):
And we have a Facebook account, but we are not updating it really.
I'm sorry.
I know people are looking at it because I get notifications, but we're just not keeping upwith that.
So, all right.
See you next time.
See you later!