Savannah: The Price of Her Past, the Changing Landscape of Porn, Mental Health, and the Digital Age

In this episode, we discuss Savannah (Shannon Wilsey), a prominent figure in the adult industry, whose early trauma and struggles with addiction shaped her turbulent journey. We speculate about the factors that may have led to her battle with addiction and ultimately her suicide. We reflect on the evolving landscape of the adult industry, examining shifts in mental health awareness, and the impact of the digital age.

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Secret Passage Podcast is hosted by Dana Vespoli and Shannon Rogers

Producer: Tim Rogers

Editor: Mitch Silver

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This podcast may contain discussions of graphic violence, unsettling themes, supernaturalphenomena, and other topics that some listeners may find disturbing or triggering.
Listener discretion is advised.
This podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The opinions expressed are simply those of the individual hosts and do not represent theprofession of psychology or constitute professional advice.

(00:37):
Welcome back everybody to the Secret Passage podcast.
It is I, Dana Vespoly, alongside my co-host Shannon Rogers.
Hello, very good to be here with you.
Welcome back gang.
We have a special, I mean, every episode's a special episode.

(00:59):
I don't know that.
Like a very special episode of Secret Passage podcast.
That used to be how they introduced, remember the eighties like sitcoms when they would doa very special episode, like the different strokes where Arnold gets molested and.
my God, I forgot about that one.

(01:20):
Wasn't there a punky Brewster one where her friend gets like stuck in a fridge to raiseawareness for children getting trapped in fridges and dying?
I don't remember that one.
I'm not sure if it was punky Brewster.
All I know is that I'd be like going along, watching my, you know, facts of life,different strokes, and then suddenly, like, first of all, not understanding the

(01:43):
implications of what a very special episode was, but just being like,
Why did that to Dudley?
Why did that happen to Dudley?
Yeah, anyway.
Have you seen that thing that's making the rounds right now from Walker Texas Ranger?
Yeah, walker told me I have AIDS.

(02:04):
That's what Haley Joel Osment.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
It's so crazy.
And then seeing him as an adult now is so weird.
man.
Well, before we get into our episode, Shannon, did you happen down any interesting secretpassages this past week?
Well, I feel like every week I could tell you a story about my neighborhood.

(02:27):
So Tim and I were sitting here the other day, and all of a sudden there's this like, boom,boom, boom, boom, boom, on the front door.
And I'm like, no, we're not answering that.
Like, ew.
And so I went out my window and I looked at my window and peeked, and it was this grizzlyold guy, like probably like 35, 40, but kind of hippie, kind of a homeless person

(02:49):
potentially.
He had a backpack and he had like a broom with him.
And I thought, oh, maybe he's like going door to door and he wants to like clean stuff.
So I was like, don't answer him.
And so he knocked again.
He's like, boom, boom, boom, Like really aggressively.
And so Tim goes to the door and he's like, hey, he's like, hey, bro.

(03:09):
He's like, do you guys smoke weed?
And we're like, no.
And I was like, we should have sent him over to our neighbor Scott's.
But yeah, no, we did not.
ah But Tim wants to be him for Halloween now.
That's hysterical.

(03:29):
That was my secret passage.
Another eventful morning in Fruitvale.
I don't like it when people knock on my door, period.
Ugh, my nervous system.
It's either some solar panel person or the Jehovah's Witnesses usually.
And so this was a new one.

(03:49):
But yeah, know, my whole body seizes up if someone knocks on my door.
Yeah.
Did I tell you about when the Mormons showed up at my door?
That was like a few months ago.
That was before I had a sign on our gate that says like, no soliciting, seriously.

(04:09):
Don't knock.
Please don't make it weird.
Yeah, it says that.
Please don't make this weird.
That's great.
Uh, so, so the nicest fucking people, man, Mormons are so friendly and outgoing and nice,but it was like this thing where I thought it would be an easy, like, end to the

(04:30):
discussion because they were like, Hey, you know, the initial, like we're, we're, youknow, we're from the church of Latter-day Saints and, and we were wondering if you have,
you know, heard the, I can't remember what they said.
And I was like, funny enough, I actually, already attend church.

(04:51):
I'm a Christian, so I'm good.
And they're like, but what about the Church of Latter-day Saints?
And I was like, are you trying to steal me away?
Are you trying to poach?
They were trying to poach.
And I didn't want to even go down the road of I come from Mormon stock on my mother'sside.
Like I come from.

(05:11):
Hmm.
like generations of Mormons on my mother's side.
And my mom actually like left and joined the Catholic church, which was a whole other kindof traumatizing event in my life, you know, just the Catholicism and me, like we didn't
mix.
So I was like, I'm not even gonna tell them I come from Mormon stock and that like I hadrelatives that did their mission and all that kind of stuff.

(05:33):
Cause then they're gonna be like, so it's in your blood.
But yeah, I like, they left.
And then I immediately made sure to get like a no solicitation sign because prior to thatsame thing, solar paneling, uh things about like bug spray people, whatever it is, like
vermin people.

(05:54):
uh yeah.
The vermin folk, like rap people.
They're just vermin.
just for me coming up like boom, boom.
Like normally we don't ask, we just like eat your vegetables and like, you know, tear thewires in your car, but.
my god, no, we had a vermin that was coming on our door and peeing on it.

(06:14):
I thought it was like, I think it was a cat spraying.
And I saw it and I made up a little like, I'm like, cat's walking around the neighborhoodpeeing on everybody's doors.
the little buddies.
I'm the boss.
Yeah, this is my house now.
Man.
So how about you and your secret passage?

(06:36):
My secret passage.
feel like I have a secret passage.
Oh, well, how about clown clown in a cornfield, which you recommended that I watched thatlast night?
Well, first of all, I love clowns, like unironically.

(06:59):
If there's an ironic way to love clowns, don't know.
I just, I don't know.
I just really like clowns a lot.
And I even had a shirt I would wear on Halloween that said, it's all clowns are funny.
And it's a picture of a clown holding a balloon in the cemetery.
oh
but.
Anyone who's also like watched my Evil Angel content, they know I love clowns.

(07:22):
But uh yeah, I don't know what it is.
I was watching it and absolutely delighting in just the squeaky shoes.
I love the squeaky clown shoes.
And then the giant clown footprint when this guy's like, how are your feet this big in thecourt field?

(07:45):
And it's funny because one of my twins came in when I was watching it and saw the partwith the giant like footprint.
uh And I was like, hey, do you think clowns just wear big shoes or do you think their feetare that big?
And he's like, well, I mean, you remember the giant clown shoes that the other twin wantedfor Christmas.

(08:07):
He wanted clown shoes for Christmas.
don't know why.
So I'm like, that's the thing.
And then just all these things about like, clowns people dressing up as clowns or likeimagining clowns as being this kind of species.
I like to think of them that way.
Like Art the Clown, who might be my favorite evil clown more than Pennywise.

(08:29):
Cause Pennywise is a, for fans of Stephen King, it lore, Pennywise is just uh a sort of anincarnation of this weird
ancient demonic spirit.
sometimes he's a creepy spider.
Sometimes he's a clown, but like, I like just the clown that's a clown.

(08:51):
So I love the clown thing.
was hilarious.
It was so funny.
I didn't expect it to be as funny as it was.
There were a lot of surprises.
I just, like that it didn't take itself super seriously.
You know, it was very camp and that's
I think where it really succeeded is it wasn't trying to be especially scary.

(09:15):
I mean, there's plenty of tension and some scares and things like that, but it was just alot of fun.
Mm-hmm.
So many funny jokes.
Yeah.
Like referencing horror and, you know, running through the cornfield, and the girls arerunning through the cornfield.
And she's like, I feel like I'm in like an 80s movie in the cornfield.

(09:36):
Yeah.
And I liked that it was totally our era because it started in 91, like the time that's,you then.
you talking about in Kettle Springs?
Yes.
Kettle Springs.
like the name.
Kettle Springs.
Anyway, yeah, it's good.
Yeah, so that was fun.

(09:56):
It was a clown experience, horror experience, and comedy experience all rolled into one.
So I really appreciated that.
Thank you for the recommendation.
You're very welcome.
Well, I guess we'll get into this episode.
This episode is all about Savannah, late porn star Savannah, late vivid video porn starSavannah, who had a very short career of about four years and died by self-inflicted

(10:33):
gunshot wound in 1994.
And I...
You know, we discuss what topics to do and, you know, of course we do enjoy covering truecrime in joy, it's just, it's interesting to try and unpack and understand why things

(10:54):
happen, how things happen.
And then sometimes a subject, regardless of how old it is, how dated it might be, just, Ithink,
deserves uh to be revisited in the context of today.
And so uh that is why I thought it would be interesting for us to talk about the lateSavannah and also just the context of her life and the period she grew up in and died in,

(11:32):
in the context of now with how the porn industry has evolved, how our
recognition of mental health as worthy of discussion, of exploration, and also aging, Ithink.
Being older as a woman, and then being older as a woman in the context of entertainment,and our attitudes about sex, and the mythology of women's empowerment in the context of,

(12:04):
really, let's be honest, the male gaze.
We talked about that a little bit with the Lily Phillips episode, but that might even beapplicable here as well.
So do you know much about Savannah?
I'm coming into this with no knowledge of Savannah, no research, except for ourconversations.

(12:27):
And this time we didn't talk a lot about it.
And so I'm coming in fresh.
So I would love to know something about her history and her work and that kind of thing.
yeah, that's right.
Yes.
She, you know, I think she was like a pretty big, she's the person my boyfriend would talkabout as one of the, there was also another person, Sia or something or S-

(12:54):
Seika?
Seika.
Seika.
People talked about Seika in high school, the boys.
And then I had a boyfriend in college who liked Savannah.
Savannah was one of his favorite people.
Okay.
Yes.
So she was a huge, huge, very popular contract star for Vivid Videos.

(13:19):
So back in the day, the big studios were Vivid, which was number one.
Vivid had the contract stars who were really, really, really popular.
They benefited from higher quality production.
bigger budgets, ah lots of exposure, as much exposure as you could have back then, youknow, before really the internet took off.

(13:47):
They would do feature dancing engagements where they would go travel the country todifferent strip clubs and be like the featured showcase person.
And people would come in droves from the various towns to see them.
that was part of their like promotion and marketing.
Exactly.
I see.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, of course at the time the video stores, because again, this is, this ispre iPhone, the internet websites, pay per view type things.

(14:18):
You would have like the pay per view and in hotel rooms, right?
If you wanted to go and watch an adult movie, you have access there.
You'd have access in the stores, which would have posters.
So the posters you would see, mean, like
If you've ever been into like one of these adult video stores, know, the walls would belined with VHS tapes and all of that.

(14:42):
But you would have like the posters and the posters generally tended to be the vividstars.
know, they were made up really, really well.
There was nothing like amateur looking about it.
They looked very glamorous.
So you would have like Savannah, later on Jenna Jameson or some of the other JamieSummers, Kristi Canyon.
all of these, you'd start recognizing them based on these posters.

(15:07):
But before this, Savannah came into the world as Shannon Michelle Willsey, that was hername.
And she was born in California, but then moved to Texas.
And she was the product of a tough, kind of tough upbringing.

(15:30):
She was one of several children and her father left pretty early on.
I think before she could even know that he was her father and her mother remarried a manand didn't tell her that that wasn't her father.

(15:50):
So she grew up thinking that her stepdad was her real dad and she didn't find out untilshe was registering for middle school.
And she had been using the last name Longoria, because that was her stepfather's lastname.
And the school was like, well, you you have to, that's not your last name.
Like you have to use your actual last name.

(16:13):
And then that's how she found out that her real father left and that her stepfather wasnot her real father.
And so that was tough on her, because I mean, for obvious reasons, that's a weird.
thing to find out in such a harsh way.
And she was sexually abused by her stepdad.

(16:36):
Her mother didn't believe her.
To this day, to this day says that never happened, which there's the problem as far as I'mconcerned that followed her her whole life.
Wow, that happens frequently.
Yeah.
m
for sure.
And she was, she was essentially a throwaway kid.
Like she bounced around from different living situations.

(17:01):
And then eventually she loved music and rock and roll and all that kind of stuff.
And she ended up in a relationship with Greg Allman when she was 16 and he was in hisforties.
I mean, I can't say this as a fact, but it is widely believed that he is the one thatintroduced her to heroin and drugs and all that kind of stuff.

(17:24):
And it would stand to reason because he was abusing drugs.
So there's a lot to unpack right there.
A 16 year old girl, a man that is in his 40s, he's into drugs, she gets into drugs andshe's known for being involved with a lot of

(17:44):
rock and roll types.
She loved that kind of world.
She loved the music and she loved feeling important to these guys who were seen asimportant.
Yeah, did she ever get off heroin?
She did.
had, it was kind of like this.

(18:04):
uh In the end, was cocaine that was the primary thing.
And it was cocaine that was found in her system when they did her autopsy.
She wanted to be famous.
And she moved to Hollywood.
She was in a few like kind of see movies, you know, kind of like.

(18:26):
bottom of the barrel, kind of really super low-budge, like horror slasher type things,dating various musicians.
One was this guy, Billy Sheehan, and he was from a band.
She was in a relationship with him.
He seemed nice.
There's an E!
True Hollywood story about her.
It's really the only documentary that I could find.

(18:47):
One, I remember seeing it when it came out.
It came out in like 99.
Yeah, end of the 90s.
Pretty thorough.
You know, they interviewed Billie Sheehan, they interviewed Vince Neil, who's anotherperson that she partied with.
And she thought he was her boyfriend.
He denied that he was ever her boyfriend, that they just were buddies that partiedtogether.

(19:11):
She was involved with Slash, who didn't want to ever talk about that.
Billie Idol.
She was like on the scene.
I'm going to look her up while you're talking.
Of course.
I want see what she looks like now.
She ended up doing some bikini modeling.
Because at this point, know, she's trying to make money.
Oh, I want to say that she ended up moving and living with her biological father for awhile who lived in Ventura.

(19:37):
Wow.
he was, he's, I don't, was he interviewed?
I think so.
So they reconnected and it was a.
I mean, I think at this point she was very preoccupied with her relationship with um GregAllman and he would send her gifts.

(19:59):
He would call her all the time when he was on the road.
m
I totally remember her.
Yeah, her father would kind of, get the impression I have is that her father, well, numberone, he was never really geared up to be a dad.
I don't think they had a bad relationship, but I think it was pretty hands off.

(20:19):
And I think at the point that she was with him, she was kind of making it clear that, youknow, she's doing her, her kind of her own thing, paving her own path with whatever, you
know, skills she could.
But she got into the bikini modeling, which then made its way into the nude figuremodeling.

(20:40):
And it was really trippy to see her bits and pieces of her at these various award showsand recognizing some of the people around her.
And then she got involved with a gentleman who...
was at one point he was male talent and then later on he was sort of directing a littlebit and she ended up working with a company that no longer exists now.

(21:11):
I think it was called Video Exclusives and they did some pretty, not totally gonzo style,but like you're kind of run of the mill, standard porn type thing, you so it's not like
locations and a big crew and all that.
But she was introduced into that world.

(21:32):
She needed money.
And she started, she had like a kind of a friendship with the owner, one of the owners.
And apparently he would come by in a limo and pick her up to go do favors and then bringher back and she would be crying.
And listeners, if I'm iffy on this, just let me know anyone who's super familiar with heror knew her even or worked with her.

(22:00):
She went from video exclusives and being under contract to video exclusives.
Well, first of all, the owner was found dead later because of a lot of there's the kind ofstereotype about the porn industry and the mob industry, at least early on being very
intertwined.
that's that that is true.

(22:22):
That I've spoken to folks that described experiences of shooting porn in the 90s and
At end of the day, these guys would show up in suits and open up briefcases and pull outwads of cash, pass them around.
So, of course, right?
But I'm not saying that that is what happened to this guy, but he was definitely involvedin some shit.

(22:42):
She ended up moving on to Vivid and was under contract to Vivid and became incredibly,incredibly popular where her image on a box cover, her being in the movie itself,
was producing record sales.

(23:03):
she became demanding on set, pretty quickly, I wanna say, demanding things like people goand get her her drugs.
She would show up late.
She was very difficult.
Not unlikable, but very difficult.
And then of course she became, I think bratty, very, very, very bratty.

(23:24):
Eventually her...
And the guys, I'm summarizing this so that we can kind of get into the real discussion.
Again, like I said, her career was very short-lived when you think about it.
Four years is real fast.
Four years.
When did she start?
Was she like 18, 19?
Do you know?
I want to say she was 18 or 19, maybe 19.

(23:49):
She died when she was 23.
was very young.
23 about to be 24.
Right.
Cause she died in July of 94 and she was born in October.
Still very young.
So she became very, very difficult.
She started to kind of put on weight.
that was probably a consequence of the heroin.

(24:13):
Heroin was her primary thing, the booze and the heroin.
And it was a liability, a huge liability.
And so at the end, she was trying to do feature dancing engagements.
She was massively in debt to the IRS, living way beyond her means.
And was, I think,

(24:38):
periodically tried to get clean, but not really.
I think she managed to get off heroin, but then of course was, you know, really justactively in a cocaine period.
She was using a lot of cocaine and then just her nose was out of commission.
And then she'd apparently add cocaine to water and just drink it, get it however she couldinside of herself.

(25:03):
She had her manager,
was trying to get her engagements to feature dance at various clubs to pay off her taxdebt and also be able to pay her bills.

(25:23):
And at the end had managed to get her a booking engagement in New York to feature dance.
And she was supposed to leave on the 11th or 12th.
What one of those days, July 11th or 12th?
And she'd been out partying and then was driving with a guy that would like house sit forher.

(25:45):
And she crashed, she was careening around a corner, like around Studio City, crashed intoa fence and into a tree.
And her car was in bad shape, obviously.
The guy was okay, the passenger, and she was, she'd hit her face into the steering wheeland her nose was bleeding.
It's still not clear if her nose was actually broken.

(26:08):
She thought it was, and she had some like minor lacerations on her face and she managed toget her car, it a Corvette, into her garage.
And she asked her friend, please go take her dog out for a walk.
And when he was out to like, just look at the fence and the tree and all that.
While he was doing that, she got on the phone with her.

(26:31):
She was leaving a voicemail for her manager crying and you can actually hear it.
in the E!
True Hollywood story, they like play it.
And she's like, I'm fucked.
I got in a car accident.
My nose is broken.
I don't know what I'm gonna do.
And essentially this anxiety was about how the fuck she was gonna get to New York in herwith her face looking the way it did and do this booking engagement.

(26:57):
She desperately, desperately needed money.
And I mean, I'd like to add she was also on cocaine.
And as someone who had a uh bad period with cocaine, the smallest problem, it becomesinsurmountable.
You have the paranoia, especially if you're like actively in like mild cocaine psychosis.

(27:23):
I'm not saying she was, but I remember anything like uh getting a notice that myregistration was coming due.
produce this massive amount of paranoia and anxiety.
Like dumb shit like that.
And so for her already in crisis, just financial crisis, all of that.

(27:44):
then this was something that I've heard some reports say that her nose was broken.
I've heard others say that, no, she just thought it was because of her panic.
And that probably they would have been able to like get her cleaned up and fine withmakeup if these are minor lacerations.
for her engagement, but in her mind it was like everything was destroyed.

(28:07):
Her friend came back and found her in the garage with a loaded gun.
uh And she was looking at, sitting on the ground, like looking at her car and likebawling.
And he was like, don't do anything crazy.
Please don't do anything crazy.
And like turned to like run to grab a phone to call for help.

(28:28):
And when he turned, he heard a pop.
Oh.
And then her manager showed up, found her like laying on the ground.
They call 911.
She didn't die right away.
She was taken off life support like the following, the following day.
So that is a summary of her short life.

(28:48):
And there's a lot.
First of all, this story, unfortunately is not unique.
I think most people know this is not a unique story at all.
It's not a unique story in.
especially an adult, right?
The story makes me think of a lot of things.
A lot of people who have taken their own lives or who have overdosed.

(29:10):
People who had just, just, they had there been something in place, had there been earlyintervention.
It's a lot.
The thing that drives me nuts with the Eat True Hollywood story, and it's not the fault ofthe producers.
They're incredibly compassionate and nonjudgmental in the way they present her story.
And I absolutely will give them that.

(29:31):
But
What drives me crazy is number one, Stephen Hirsch, who was the owner of Vivid Video whenhe's interviewed.
And it could be that he just didn't know what to say.
But when he's asked about like, well, you what are your thoughts about what happened?
First, he claims that she had contacted him and had wanted to come back to Vivid and theywere in discussion and talks about it.

(29:59):
He didn't.
say one way or the other, if he was like, yeah, totally Savannah, like, we'll bring youback under contract and we'll work something out.
I wouldn't fault him for not doing that because again, just strictly from a businessstandpoint that she was costing production a lot and was difficult to have on set.
And it's not fair to the talent that shows up ready with their lines ready, all of thatprepared to work.

(30:24):
get that.
But it's, it's, he says, well, you know,
I'm paraphrasing, but like, well, she did what she did because it made the most sense toher at the time.
I mean, she's dealing with the fact that she's getting older.
And I'm like, bro, she was 23, 24 years old.
Like even in porn, even in the porn industry, that's not old.

(30:46):
I mean, back then, even it wasn't old.
that's, it's essentially the idea is like, well, that's all she had going for her.
And what was she going to do?
Like she was getting old.
Passed out to pastor.
So that was, that really was weird.
sounds like he's trying to distance himself from having any influence over that decision,right?

(31:10):
exactly.
It definitely could be that.
It's like, you know, he might be thinking, well, shit, you know, we didn't renew hercontract.
We kind of cut her off.
And if that's the reason, I don't want to associate.
it could be.
And there's like grasping at straws because like I said, even for that time that thatwasn't old pushing 30.

(31:34):
OK, back then, a lot of it also just has to do with the way you look.
Yeah.
And how you're aging.
But um I remember I heard that and I'm like...
Yeah, 23, I don't think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the thing that absolutely drives me insane, aside from the mother being interviewedand saying, yeah, no, that didn't happen about her being sexually abused by her stepdad.

(32:06):
And apparently the way she would describe it, she tried calling like a drug supporthotline or something like in crisis at some point.
She called like a crisis line.
I don't know if it was a suicide hotline, I don't think so, or if it was like one ofthose, because I actually called a number like that when I was in drug crisis, one of

(32:33):
those like anonymous, like narcotics lines.
And she recounted her sexual abuse experience.
So it was a thing.
It was a theme that came up and it never diverted from what, yeah, no, it never changed.

(32:57):
Exactly.
that, and I don't think it was just her stepdad.
I think there were other experience.
I wouldn't be surprised.
And again, this is just a theory, but like when she would go on the road and stuff withlike Greg Allman and these guys, someone might have just abused her.
Yeah.

(33:17):
Because rarely is it just this one thing happened, you know, especially with herlifestyle.
The other thing that drives me crazy is at the end, what one of her friends saying, OK,well, you know, this is a cautionary tale for girls who think that a career in porn is a
good idea.

(33:37):
And obviously, I've been vocal about my criticisms of pornography primarily as it existsnow and it's
really it's easy access to children.
You know, back then, we've talked about this before, like you had to jump through hoops toget your porn.

(33:58):
You had to like physically go into a store.
You had to like write in and have it delivered to you.
Like you're gonna buy it to be shipped.
You had to go to a theater to watch it or a hotel room to get like the adult.
things that you had to pay for with a credit card.

(34:19):
So, you know, you had to jump through hoops to get to it.
And had to be a certain age to go.
to be a certain age.
Right.
um So that said, porn didn't do this to Savannah.
the adults in her life when she was young.
As I think I described to you, know, we can say that like porn might be the crocodile pitthat did her in, right?

(34:44):
Like exploitation drugs, you know, continued messaging that your value is in the way thatyou look.
She was led there.
She was led there by her mother, by her stepfather, by seemingly Greg Allman, these menthat used her.
and cast her aside.

(35:06):
They led her and dropped her in.
Like that's the thing.
Like, Port is where she ended up and it sure as didn't help, you know?
It's real easy to get drugs on set.
All of that kind of stuff.
For every Savannah, I can give you a story of somebody who like Ginger Lynn or ChristieCanyon or Rae Lynn or these different adult stars that came out of it okay.

(35:30):
Mm-hmm.
It's not an easy environment to be in when you're suffering, you know?
But it really fucking pissed me off when her mom's like, well, that didn't happen.
And I'm like, her daughter's fucking dead.
And she's like, she lied.
She lied.
She was never molested.
It really fucking pisses me off.

(35:51):
I don't want to diminish.
You know, like at least at least be open to the fact that you will you don't know you youchoose a side when you say That never happened and she's choosing the side of her husband.
It's her word against his word and she her mother own mother betrayed her And didn't yeahfor

(36:12):
I just, it's a thing.
mean, here's the thing.
Obviously like, okay, none of us were there.
None of us know if somehow she was able to get definitive evidence, but she didn't stateit.
She didn't say it didn't happen.
Here's how I know it didn't happen.
She didn't say, daughter is manipulative and she was doing that to break my relationshipup and blah, blah, Because I could see a kid who's disturbed, who doesn't like their

(36:39):
stepfather trying to drive a wedge if they're that savvy.
I don't know.
you would think the mother would provide context instead of just, I choose not to believethat.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
It's inconvenient for you, lady who also didn't tell her daughter that who her real fatherwas or any of that, like just set her up to be traumatized.

(37:06):
Like no discussion.
It's like, okay, she's going in.
Like, I don't know.
It really just feels like Savannah was just a, she really was just thrown out.
And then when she's thrown out,
And she learns early that she's beautiful, that guys like her.

(37:26):
It seems to me that she spent her life just trying to be wanted.
early on she learned that, well, know, guys want me because I'm hot, guys want me.
Someone said in the documentary, and I thought it was really, it was, you know, an astuteobservation.

(37:50):
that it was never really about the money for Savannah.
It was about being wanted.
It was about validation.
was about being famous because what does fame mean?
You're a kid and you're watching famous people just, it feels like love.
It feels like love.
a safe haven to like, if you're famous and you're loved and adored by people, then theycan't leave you.

(38:17):
They won't leave you.
you know, there's some fantasy about, and it's not stable.
I mean, that's the thing is not stable, but it does feed like, you know, I think abouthealthy narcissism when we talk about like, develop human development and like healthy
narcissism is something we all

(38:39):
in an ideal world would get from our childhoods, you when you're like two or three yearsold and you run into the living room as a kid and you have any clothes on and you're like,
yeah, the adults in your world, if they say, my gosh, you're amazing.
I love you.
You're the best.
You're just such a, you know, they shower you with love and attention and love you for whoyou are.

(39:01):
And then we develop a sense of healthy narcissism, right?
Like I'm pretty okay.
Um, and I've always sort of seen.
at for some people, the chasing fame as chasing that, like that sense of you're okay, likeas you are and you're loved.

(39:21):
But that's totally a trap because fame requires you to kind of keep up and that, you knowwhat I mean?
That hamster wheel kind of pursuit and it waxes and wanes.
People have a career that's great and sometimes it goes.
underground for many, many, many, many years and then they come back on, you know, so itisn't stable, but I can so see her wanting that, you know, to feel good about herself and

(39:46):
to feel like people love her.
Yeah, she didn't get that.
I will say that she had a relationship with Polly Shore and he's interviewed and he'sjust, he seems like, he seems like a nice guy.
Like he really does.
Obviously his mom was really awesome and started the comedy store and all that.

(40:08):
But he, he spoke so highly of her and he introduced her to his mom.
Like he treated her like a human.
Whereas these other guys kind of like they treated her like, you're a porn star, whatever.
You know, I can, can bang you and party with you.
Can show you off as far as like, Hey, male, you know, my virility, look, I'm banging thischick who's banged all these other guys.

(40:32):
Like I'm enough, know?
But, but Polly was, was real, really did, really did seem to care about her a lot, but inthe tradition of challenging damaged people, you know, he couldn't.
He couldn't save her, anyone that wanted to save her.

(40:53):
And there were people who did.
Jenna Fine, who was uh a porn star around that time.
uh So Savannah was pretty bisexual.
She had a relationship with Jenna Fine.
They were friends and also like girlfriends.
But Savannah was one that was hard to pin down, hard to contain enough to be like, hey,you you need help.

(41:21):
So ultimately she didn't want to be safe.
didn't want to be, you can't hold someone in like a rehab if they don't want to be there.
I'm not sure if there was ever any situation that would have, that she was in that wouldhave, and even then, know, these like 51, 50 holds are only for a brief period of time.

(41:44):
I don't.
It's hard to get someone committed.
Yeah, it's hard against their will.
And then even then, yeah, they can get out.
They can convince a doctor that they're okay or you're just making me think about traumathough.
And like how, you know, trauma just obliterates your sense of a safe and just world, youknow, and then throw drugs in the mix.

(42:05):
It's like,
I just think about the desperation, that quote, most men lead lives of quiet desperation.
The desperation of trying to find some sort of equilibrium after being on, especiallycoke, heroin, coke, all that stuff.

(42:27):
It's so unsettling.
And she was so young.
don't know.
My nervous system is just going off, even hearing the story.
It's like you can't, with an adult though, you can't really, like you said, contain themunless they're willing to slow down and stop what they're doing.

(42:48):
Yeah, and that's the thing is like, if anyone could have gotten through to her, it wouldhave been family members that could have just said, hey, I love you.
I fucked up.
I wasn't there for you.
I want more for you.
I want to help you.

(43:09):
I want to help you.
She just, I mean, it sounds corny, but she really, she just wanted to be loved.
In the end, the saddest thing is it was her biological father that pulled the plug.
A man that was never really there.
No one in her family really knew her.

(43:31):
Mm-hmm.
And there's like, there were no instincts about her.
You know, she came home and she was sick with heroin withdrawal for Christmas.
You know, she would shower her family with gifts and her mom's like, I don't know.
I she said she had the flu.
I thought it was the flu.
I don't know.
It was like heroin withdrawal.

(43:52):
And I'm like, lady, lady, come on.
It's that like, just washed my hands of it.
I'm just like, I did what I, I mean, I don't know.
Like, I don't it again, I was just like, throwing shit at the screen.
I'm like, fuckers.
It's such an awful coping strategy to feign ignorance or, It's avoidant.

(44:20):
Clearly, the mother is not able or maybe not willing to go there and do what...
I mean, who knows how the mom even conceives of her idea of what her responsibility to herchild is, but yeah, it's awful to watch.
Watch someone just slip through the hands of all the people in her life and...

(44:41):
You know, it's just like the developmental cost of getting on drugs that young and whatthat does to, like all the missed opportunities for her to learn how to function better.
Because she had no point of reference.
mean, her life was suffering from day one.
there was, when I say day one, I don't know, maybe her early childhood was good orpleasant or whatever, and then shit went downhill.

(45:06):
But it started to go downhill at the point that she, I think, had reached puberty, right?
Because she was starting middle school.
And then there was like nothing for her to look back on and long for because she'd neverhad it.
So why get off the one thing that makes you feel good?

(45:28):
I know, like hanging out with Slash.
You know I mean?
But that is intoxicating.
That's like, you know, I'm this person, I mean, I'm just making this up, but like, I'mthis person who is mistreated and probably doesn't like myself very much.
And it's like an infusion, you know, like to be in the presence of people who have statusand are cool and, you know, to have money, to have a court, I mean, the Corvette, it's

(45:57):
like,
You can see her trying to shore herself up in a way, right?
But desperate, know, this is this sort of desperate bolstering, you know, the drugs too.
I mean, you know, the drugs, once you'd start doing them and you're addicted to them, thatjust takes over anyway, you know, like, so there's like the initial use of them provides

(46:18):
some relief probably, because that's why we do these things.
And then the addiction takes over and then it's just a monster.
You know, it's like completely out of your control.
in some ways, and she has easy access wherever she goes.
Yeah.
That's an interesting question.
OK, I don't want to change the subject.

(46:38):
That's a question for me in terms of the industry.
How is it now?
There's the 80s, I'm sure, was like Coke City, know, like everything else.
And now is that what's the situation now?
Do people show up to work high?
Do people have
drugs on the set?

(46:59):
Or are you at freedom to disclose this stuff?
uh
totally, yeah.
I mean, first of all, I'd like to say that in 2005, every single scene that I shot as aperformer in 2005, I was on cocaine.
I was high.
I didn't tell anybody I was high.
I didn't do coke openly.

(47:20):
I didn't behave erratically.
I don't think it was obvious to anyone.
Like in the tradition of a coke head that is like, you know, I showed up, I knew my lines,I did my job.
So no one knew.
To their credit, I don't think anybody knew.

(47:43):
generally speaking, it's frowned upon.
Now there are some productions, like even back when I started, that people would get highon set, like Smoke Weed.
you know how there's that weird, it's called Cali Sober?
It's like, I don't do drugs except for weed.

(48:06):
So there are some productions where I don't think that they're actively using whilethey're shooting, but there's the presence of drugs.
Nowadays.
So even back when I started, I never saw drugs on set.
I do remember a girl pulling out a big old bottle of Vicodin and popping a couple beforeshe went did an anal scene.

(48:32):
Okay.
I didn't say anything.
I'm like, oh, it's like that.
But, ah you know, she was, it was too vicarious.
She got through the scene.
There have been cases of girls who like no one knew that they were, cause it's, it's alsothe case of sometimes you get a wacky ass performer on set and you don't know, it drugs?
Is it mental illness?
Are they just eccentric?

(48:53):
I don't know.
But, but there have been situations where like a girl, uh
disappears into the bathroom and comes out, keeps going to the bathroom and coming out.
But she's getting through the scene, you don't like, cause there's also privacy issues.
You don't want to go, Hey, what are you doing in the bathroom?
And if she's like, I'm just fixing my makeup.

(49:16):
I don't know.
It becomes the case of, she able to do her job?
We do liability videos and things like that.
you like, what is today's date?
What is the...
you know, what is your birthday?
How does that make you?
Have you, are you in the, you know, under the influence of any drugs and alcohol?

(49:36):
And you know, you say no.
And the, essentially the crew, the director has to just sort of use their best, bestjudgment.
Cause that's all you can do because people also have their rights.
So you kind of go based on how's the shoot going.
It seems to me with Savannah demanding people go cop her drugs before seeing things were alittle different.

(49:57):
back then, right?
You couldn't do that now.
There's a zero tolerance paperwork about you, like not even marijuana.
No.
So if anybody's a stoner, they're probably going to get high before they come in to theshoot because they can't smoke pot on set.
If somebody's, abusing prescription medication, if they're, they'll, they'll show up andhopefully not be in bad shape.

(50:24):
to perform because that's the only really indicator that you can use.
But to answer your question, nowadays, most productions have like a zero tolerance policyabout drugs.
And even back when I started, I didn't see it on set.
And I'm sure that there were people doing what I was doing, which is like doing littlebumps in the bathroom or doing it in their car or whatever.

(50:50):
But it wasn't an outward thing because
at the end of the day, it is a business and these companies are counting on, you know, theproducer and director to like get them a product that is the quality that they want.
So that's the thing.

(51:11):
oh
basically no guardrails and lots of access and a trauma history and I wonder about herfriends, you know, like did she have friends?
Did she have people in her life that she could trust and
The impression I have is that her friends were in the business and a lot of them werepartying right along with her.

(51:40):
And then the ones that couldn't handle it were, she didn't see very often.
You know, that's, that's the impression I have.
And, I will say that it's interesting looking at Savannah that, that her,
brief history in the context of now.
For all the existing flaws in my industry, there is an open dialogue about mental healthand there are resources in place.

(52:13):
There's also like pineapple is something that started shortly after August Ames died in, Iwant to say it was 2017.
December of 2017, I think.
um
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
And there were a rash of...

(52:35):
uh deaths, young performers around that time.
was overwhelming.
But that brought about resources for people and adults seeking mental health, but also notwanting to be stigmatized for being sex workers.

(52:59):
so, you know, because for some people they...
they either can't quit sex work or they simply don't want to.
And it seemed that a lot of like, for example, for August, the help she was trying to get,it always came down to, well, you need to quit porn.
She's like, you know, that's not something that either she could do or was willing to do.

(53:24):
And for that to then preclude any possible treatment and stuff was, you know, it is.
Because regardless of whether or not someone maybe should or shouldn't, to throw whatreally seems like judgment out right away is, you like my therapist when I was a dancer,

(53:46):
she's amazing.
She was my first therapist and I, to this day, like I credit her with so much uh help.
But she never told me outright, like, don't be a stripper.
She was like, hey, here are my concerns.
about you dancing.
And none of it was you're gonna be objectified or it's just inherently wrong.

(54:10):
Her concerns were about my anxiety and the possibility of me being in a situation in aclub where I might have something happen and be vulnerable.
That was it.
And I'm like, that could have been maybe a path with some of these adult performers or sexworkers that were seeking.

(54:30):
Counseling is like, okay, I'm not gonna tell you to quit I'm gonna tell you where myconcerns are about what my you know, whatever But anyway that there is something in place
there.
are there are resources in place for people um and and just generally speaking uh a lot ofa lot of folks and adulterer are able to be vocal about what their challenges are without

(54:57):
fear of looking stupid or looking weak or
being unshootable.
So there is that.
But one thing that comes up and this is, I had mentioned her to you like in doing myresearch on Savannah, which again, there's not a whole lot.
There is this documentary, there's some articles that are pretty surface level, of course,you know, or reference the documentary, the E True Hollywood story.

(55:24):
There's not like a ton more.
Again, because she was, you know, she was at a time when
We didn't have social media or any of that.
But I was reminded of a performer that some listeners may remember her, Dakota Sky, whodied in 2021.
She was, I want to say 27, maybe 28 when she died.

(55:49):
It reminded me a little bit of Savannah a lot actually, just in how she just was.
hard to pin down, hard to help.
And she died of an overdose in a camper, in a homeless encampment is what the news reportsdescribe.

(56:19):
And I was fortunate enough to know her and to have shot her when she was performing.
It's a thing where I looked at her and I don't know much about her history.
I know she didn't have it easy.
She's from Florida and a really beautiful girl.

(56:45):
And I remember having a conversation with her because I would see her posting on socialmedia, like essentially begging fans.
to help her buy like a plane ticket to go home and like see family members.
And I remember just being so confused because I remember telling her, at the time I wasdirecting quite a bit and I remember telling her after shooting her one time, I was like,

(57:15):
you know, I know for myself, like I could book you like multiple times a month.
Like I would, the company would want me to shoot you multiple times a month because shewas,
really someone that I thought should have been a huge star in the business.
Like on like a Riley Reid or Angela White or something like that.

(57:39):
was a really just talented girl.
And the problem was she would manifest these ailments.
And I think she legitimately believed she had them.
These bizarre, like it was this
this odd thing.

(58:00):
it spoke to, aside from the drugs, some kind of mental health issue where she wouldlegitimately, know, her, something like that, she would cancel a lot.
She would cancel a ton.
And she canceled on me.
She ended up canceling and she would like follow up with like sending a picture ofherself.

(58:22):
And she's like, I have this swelling, and she would.
No explanation.
And I think she would like, I'm not a medical expert, obviously, but it really seemed thatshe would become so anxious about something that it was like it would crop up on her like
a rash or something like that.

(58:43):
But, know, she was dropped by her agent.
You know, she, she canceled, interestingly enough on my shoot, very, very, very lastminute to the point where I had to get a replacement within the hour.
that worked out.
It worked out.
And she was difficult, right?
But it was the hardest thing.

(59:04):
I'm like, Dakota, you should...
And I remember being like, look, if it's a case of you just get anxious about being oncertain productions, like, I'll book you and I will give you the easiest job.
Like, I'll get you in and out of here.
I don't know.
But it was sad.

(59:24):
It's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking because it's like, my opinion, I mean, with the right kind of treatmentand practice, if you're invested and you can do, you know, practice what you're learning
in therapy, if anything is workable, I mean, even serious, serious trauma, you even, youknow, like I do think so.

(59:51):
I mean, I know it's harder for some people, know, more challenges, the more trauma youhave.
And certainly if you have to kick an addiction, that's hard.
mean, really freaking hard, but it sounds like, oh, it reminds me of, told you about likethe horrors of, we live without a net, most of us, right?
Like if you're a plumber and you hurt your back, you're screwed.

(01:00:13):
If you are working in the adult industry and you have a big old swollen thing on yourface, you can't work.
And it's so vulnerable and anxiety inducing because we don't really have a lot of controlover our bodies.
You know, we do have things that crop up that make us look, you know, not presentable.

(01:00:36):
That's the funny thing.
I've never, it's when anyone thinks that there might be any glamour associated with thisline of work, it's because you see girls in makeup and glamorous outfits and things like
that.
I just, it's actually incredibly blue collar.
mean, we are, there's an interesting kind of intersection or I think of

(01:01:03):
just my experience in like with combat sports.
And I think of like, you know, prize fighters being like, there's a similar thing withlike adult entertainers, which is your body is your business.
And you know, you can succumb to a lot of physical injuries.
I mean, I've, there are like literal cases of male performers like breaking their dick ina scene.

(01:01:27):
Or when your penis stops working and then you're using Viagra, which isn't intended to beused daily, right?
It's not meant to be used daily or they start injecting the base of their penis to get ithard, to be able to manufacture this erection to use.
And then for the women, there's all kinds of vaginal issues, like anal issues that canhappen just from constant, constant, constant use.

(01:01:57):
Yeah, you have those stressors.
And I don't doubt that probably on some level, Dakota just didn't, man, you know, it'shard when you don't feel like having sex to have sex, right?
And then if you have any anxiety, and there came a point where I just, felt her just beingunreachable, you know?

(01:02:21):
I wasn't like friends with Dakota, but like I would text like about work related stuff or,
trying to communicate something to her.
And I remember we were friends on Facebook when I used to have Facebook under her legalname.
And I remember one time I was finishing a shoot, it was really late at night and we werewrapping and sometimes just the cleanup and breaking down equipment, all that can take

(01:02:49):
forever.
And I was like, it was probably one or two in the morning.
so I go on Facebook and I'm scrolling.
And then I see that she's awake and she's hula hooping.
And it was like...
she's just like hula hooping.
And I kind of laughed because she's wacky.
She's a very, she's very, again, like very, very, so charming.

(01:03:12):
Like this adorable, charming girl, but she was clearly something was up and then timewould go on and she's just be keep appealing.
And just the irony of her appealing online for money to buy a plane ticket to go home whenthis was a girl that could have been pulling in.

(01:03:33):
she could have been one of those girls that's like, like only fans models pulling in like60, $70,000 a month.
Again, that I don't think that was ever the answer.
Like I say that, right?
And I'm like, this is a girl in crisis.
This is a girl who has like some mental health challenges along with like, like addictionissues.

(01:03:57):
The business was the last place she probably needed to be.
What she needed was help.
And then in 2021, hearing that she was found dead, she had overdosed and that anotherperformer who had a meth problem was found having killed herself in her car like right

(01:04:18):
around the same time.
And this came after that there were resources in place.
Like I said, after losing August Ames,
in 2017, like, I'll give it to the business.
They really actively put in place resources for people struggling, but here's the catch.

(01:04:44):
You have to think you need help and you have to want help and that's the problem.
Yeah, you have to be willing to do the work too.
You have to be willing to go and devote your time and energy to yourself and that wholeproject.
And there's so many barriers, you know, I think.

(01:05:04):
She also sounds deeply ambivalent about the work, right?
Like you were making it really easy for her and there was, sounds like, I don't know, I'mmaking this up because I don't know her at all, but there seemed like she was...
the not showing up, the not, you know what mean?
Like it just, I was feeling like maybe she didn't really want to be doing it.

(01:05:24):
And maybe didn't know that she didn't want to be doing it because what else was there?
that was Savannah's thing is what am I going to do without this?
What am I without this?
Who am I without this?
Right?
Because the only validation she seemed to ever get was her physical body.
I don't know if that was the case with Dakota.

(01:05:51):
uh I know that
there had been times that she would try to get clean and it would last for a couple daysmaybe.
And then she'd go right back.
again, I don't know, I really don't know much about her history.
We just have these brains.
mean, that's, know, that we get addicted to things and it's like anybody with enoughexposure can, would, I think some of us are more vulnerable to it than others, but yeah, I

(01:06:22):
don't know.
People talk about addiction.
Like it's this very mysterious thing or it's like a character flaw or right.
It's just, but it's our brains doing their norma.
It's normative thing.
It's like learning, you know, it's like,
It's very hard to break that.
It's very hard to get sober.
Just enduring the anedonia, know, just enduring that period of time where it's just you'reflat, you know, you're kind of like, and making it through that takes a lot of holding and

(01:06:49):
a real commitment.
Yeah.
That is the thing when you have mental health challenges, which alone are hard, you know,which are hard.
And even within the dialogue, you know, the kind of open dialogue that we have now aboutstruggling with mental health in life, but also in the adult industry.

(01:07:19):
And then the nature of the work.
which is, you you're manufacturing intimacy.
That's what we do.
We manufacture intimacy.
We are subject to constant messaging in forums now.
You know, during Savannah's time, everyone during those times, number one, the money wasjust so much better than it is now just for uh like production, mainstream production in

(01:07:50):
porn.
I'm not talking about like the platforms and things, which is the primary for a lot ofperformers that that's where the bulk of their money comes from.
uh But during the heyday of the nineties, you didn't receive comments telling you thatyou're ugly or you're fat or you're too thin or you're stupid or your scenes suck or any

(01:08:14):
of that kind of thing.
at least the performers in the nineties were spared that.
If they got any of that, was probably like in person, they're at a feature dancingengagement, which by and large, most of the time, I think was probably pretty positive in
terms of people being like coming there and being excited to see them.
So they weren't subjected to that.
Um, cause that is, that is what, uh, that, that, that is not helpful when, when you're,uh, not just a public figure, the way that, that these girls are now like Dakota or, or

(01:08:48):
August Ames or
or anyone, you know, being a public figure and getting that kind of messaging that you'reunattractive, but then, you you've been naked and you have been doing the most kind of
vulnerable thing you can do, which is just be naked and intimate.

(01:09:09):
But then you're being told that there's things wrong with your body or the way that youperform, the way you come across, all of that kind of thing.
Keep in mind listeners, I know we spoke a couple of weeks ago about like Sydney Sweeneyand her jeans ad and that people then go in the comments and tell her that she's ugly.

(01:09:36):
There's this one post I think I, did I tell you about the, really this woman who veryinterestingly,
posted that that Sydney Sweeney was a butter face.
And if you saw this woman, if you saw this woman who posted it, I'm like, I'm like,where's your self awareness?

(01:09:58):
Where's your self aware?
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, right?
No one has to think Sydney Sweeney is hot.
Like when I, when I talk about like me finding her attractive or her just being consideredgenerally attractive, which is the truth because she's widely
She's widely famous, not just for her acting.
She's a very good actress, but for being what is considered beautiful, right?

(01:10:21):
By today's standards, whatever.
And you're entitled to not think she's attractive, but when you go online and you saythat, you need everyone to know that you think that.
It's bizarre, right?
But so Sydney Sweeney hearing that, right?
And then you gotta think about a girl like Dakota Sky, you know, a girl like...

(01:10:43):
like August Ames, any one of these performers are not only being scrutinized and judgedfor the way they look, but also for their bodies and for their choices for choosing to do
this line of work.
And there's an odd ownership that a lot of these men have when they've seen you naked andvulnerable, they feel like they own you because they've seen you be intimate.

(01:11:12):
I can speak from experience like some of the really strange comments that even I get and Idon't really look at comments anymore because I'm just like I can't this is there's
nothing I can do about these people thinking the things that they think but but you knowI'm also I'm also you know almost 53 years old and could give to Fox what anyone thinks of

(01:11:32):
my body or whatever.
a full life and you're not addicted to drugs and like you're
Not anymore.
mean, well, addiction never really ends, but I don't, I'm not struggling.
But, but you think about a girl who's, who's young and who hasn't had it easy, you know,life hasn't, hasn't been easy.

(01:11:53):
And, and they're reading these comments and there's a clip of Sydney Sweeney crying.
She's tug.
She's saying like, she's because she, yeah.
It's a, you can find it if you look for it, but she's crying and she's saying something tothe effect of like, something about like, you when you think you say these things and it,

(01:12:15):
you know, whatever, like that her feelings are hurt.
But I'm like, if Sydney Sweeney is crying, and this is uh a woman who is like gettingthese endorsement deal or these brand deals and she's an actress and.
all that.
Think about these girls like a Savannah or like these other ones.

(01:12:39):
And um yeah, I say all this, really, I'm going to the piece about mental health.
And then of course, the other side, is the addiction that sometimes there doesn't need tobe addiction for it to end in this very, very tragic way.
I think that the drugs made it worse for Savannah, like worse.

(01:13:01):
But I don't know that it was ever gonna end any other way if she didn't get help foressentially what made her vulnerable to drugs anyway, if that makes sense.
Yeah, mean, the underlying stuff.
Yeah.
But that is the story of Savannah.

(01:13:24):
And it brings up a lot of issues and like subtopics or whatever, entire topics abouttoday, the adult industry today, the way we look at mental health, the way we look at
addiction and the resources that exist today.
And then the real, the challenging thing of

(01:13:48):
even with these resources.
ah
It's people take them up.
Yeah, exactly.
But they exist, you know, and the good news is I think that if there's anything good aboutsocial media, it's I have seen girls go on social media and say, hey, does anyone know,

(01:14:11):
like, for example, like a like gynecologist or a doctor that's not going to judge me forwhat I do?
My DMS are open.
The girl gets help.
Like if there's anything good about
this kind of easier access we have to each other.
It's that.
And that there are good people, you know, there really are.

(01:14:32):
Like in my field, definitely, like I think, well, at least in my training, which was along time ago, I think there's like a respect for sex workers and for adult performers,
but you're always going to, mean, you know, it's, you know, you know, it's, there's a lotof variation in our field in terms of people's training and practice and focus.

(01:14:54):
And so it's still, I guess, you know, what I would say to people in the industry who arelooking for
They have therapists that they networks probably that they could be referred to throughthe thing you mentioned earlier.
What was it called?
But to assess maybe early when you're checking out therapists to get a sense of whether ornot, know, they have strong, we were not supposed to come with our strong opinions, but

(01:15:22):
like I would never, I would look at the whole context of someone's life if they came to meand.
whether or not they were ambivalent about the work they were doing and if they were,that's okay.
You don't, most people can't quit their jobs and they can't quit their jobs immediately.
So you know, the question is how do you live with your life the way it is and how do youlive well and that's totally possible I think.

(01:15:46):
Yeah.
there's ginger scratching.
Amazingly enough, I never ran into trouble with therapists and my line of work.
think more now than ever, there is a, speaking, sex workers are, I'm not going to sayaccepted, but they are not met with the kind of public scrutiny judgments that they used

(01:16:16):
to be.
I love this stupid fucking series called The Summer I Turn Pretty.
And in, I want to say the last episode or the episode before, there's like an OF, like anOnlyFans reference where this guy's like, oh, I thought that uh what you were saying is
that you had started an OnlyFans.

(01:16:38):
And he goes, which I totally am supportive of you with whatever it is.
And I'm like, wow, that's progressive, right?
Again, I say that and I, as,
There's a deeper conversation to be had again about women and the sexual revolution andideas about female empowerment.
But I'll put that aside because I don't think anybody should be judged harshly for theirchoices.

(01:17:02):
I just get uncomfortable when I see young girls turning 18 and immediately decide thattheir first course of action is sex work.
It makes me anxious, but that's a conversation for another day.
Anyway.
But yeah, to wrap this up, uh listeners, I hope that uh this was a good episode for you.

(01:17:23):
I just felt the need to talk about, when we're remembering Savannah and what herexperience means in the context of today and what has changed and what hasn't.
And if anyone has any insights, please always, I'm interested.
Shannon's interested.

(01:17:44):
And Ginger may or may not be interested as she sits off to the side scratching.
Now she's chilling out.
Now she's quiet.
I'm amazed.
Usually it's my dogs that are like running around behind me trying to get in on theaction.
Yeah, no, this one's with me today.
Yeah, Gingy.
oh

(01:18:05):
I mean, I think I was wanting to hear these stories and know more about them and also justhear from you sort of how it has evolved in the industry and what it's like today as
compared to in the past.
And I think a lot of our listeners are probably really interested in knowing more aboutthe industry and more about these cases.

(01:18:27):
If we had another hour and a half, I think uh would be great to start to tackle that whole
question of, you know, empowerment and this work and that kind of thing.
Yeah, that whole sticky, sticky.
That'll probably be like that we revisit with these different, uh it's so relevant now.

(01:18:53):
just, ah well, I'll talk about it.
I have a great trap door topic to bring up, but uh everyone, thank you so much.
We really appreciate your support and uh we love when you leave us five star reviews and.
comments to
comments yeah and if you there's any topics you'd love us to tackle let us know

(01:19:20):
And corrections if you have corrections.
Let us know.
yeah, sometimes like I, I didn't want to just keep digging through trying to, I have apretty good memory with, with Savannah, but, um, but yeah, if I was, if I flubbed a date
or something, let me know and follow us please.

(01:19:40):
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(01:20:04):
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(01:20:32):
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All right, gang, we'll see you next week.
Thank you so much.

(01:20:52):
Bye.