July 25, 2025 • 84 mins
In this episode of the Secret Passage podcast, we explore the tragic story of Katie Meyer, a star Stanford soccer player and team captain who took her life in 2022 after facing a harsh disciplinary process. We discuss the institutional failures of Stanford’s Office of Community Standards, which pursued action against Meyer for spilling hot coffee on a football player in defense of a teammate, despite neither party wanting to escalate the issue. We look at the immense pressure Meyer faced, the lack of mental health support, and the resulting Katie Meyer’s Law, which ensures students have an outside advocate during disciplinary actions. We touch on broader themes of mental health stigma, social media pressures, and the need for empathy in academic institutions.
Links:
Katie's Save:
Information about Katie Meyer's Law:
Save: The Katie Meyer Story
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Secret Passage Podcast is hosted by Dana Vespoli and Shannon Rogers
Producer: Tim Rogers
Editor: Mitch Silver
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast may contain discussions of graphic violence, unsettling themes, supernaturalphenomena, and other topics that some listeners may find disturbing or triggering.
Listener discretion is advised.
This podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The opinions expressed are simply those of the individual hosts and do not represent theprofession of psychology or constitute professional advice.
(00:39):
Welcome back to the Secret Passage podcast.
I am your host, Dana Vespoly, alongside my co-host,
Shannon Rogers, also known as Shanula, Shaniqua, Shanny Town, Shan Right.
That's right.
(01:04):
Well, this is part two, of, continuing from last week.
uh originally were planning on doing uh an episode on Madison Holleran and Katie Meyer astheir tragedies are kind of aligned in some ways, both pro athletes, not pro, but...
(01:28):
uh
all like star athletes, star students at Ivy League universities.
But before we get going on that, we want to give some shout outs.
yes.
Okay.
Shout outs to our new paid subscribers on Patreon.
So shout out to Lulia, Sergo, Joseph Garcia, Robert Pareco, Bill Schilling, and Connor andWiley.
(01:57):
I think we've already shouted you out, but we're shouting you out again.
And then we also want to give a shout out to the sweet person who wrote a very
nice five-star review for us on Apple podcasts.
And I can read the review.
Wait, yeah, Bob.
So it's Bob P416.
What he said was truly thought-provoking, a well-researched and thought-provoking listen.
(02:20):
Dana and Sharon, he got my name wrong, but that's okay.
Everybody does.
There's a joke in my house.
Yeah, Tim calls me Sharon Roberts.
em Dana and Sharon are not afraid to dig deep into uncomfortable subject matter that attimes,
can make you squirm and then just as quickly make you chuckle.
So thank you, Bob.
Thank you so much.
means a lot.
(02:41):
really does.
secret passages you wandered down this past week?
Shanaynay?
Yes.
Okay.
Let me tell you.
So, uh, when I wear these glasses, I always think of my little niece when she, she's socute.
When she was a little girl, she got those, you know, it's like, where's Waldo kind ofglasses.
She got some like glasses for Christmas.
(03:02):
They were not prescription or anything, but she did this little video and she saw it.
You wouldn't hurt a guy with glasses, would you?
You wouldn't hurt a guy with glasses, would you?
So cute.
Um, oh my God.
So have you, did you hear about the GameStop thing where, uh,
The two guys cut in line, those like new Pokemon cards that were being released.
Do you hear about this?
(03:23):
Okay, so in Colma, people were lining up because new Pokemon cards were available andthese two guys cut in line and this dude got really upset and they were like kind of
having words back and forth.
And then all of sudden they just broke out into a huge brawl and the guys like broke aglass jar full of weed over the guy's head.
This is so like.
(03:44):
Yeah, broke a glass jar of weed.
And then one guy took the shards from the glass and started stabbing the guy.
I know, over Pokemon.
So Tim and I were talking about lining up.
And I was like, yeah, dude, if you cut the line, you get a lot of rage.
I'm a big liner-upper.
I know that's a cultural thing.
(04:05):
I know there are cultures that don't queue up.
like,
in America, we queue up, I think, as like a residual kind of like British influence kindof thing, right?
And like, it's so ingrained in us.
And like, when we go to this, there's this brewery, Drake's uh dealers, Drake's notDrake's dealership, the actual brewery here in San Leandro, and they don't have you line
(04:26):
up for beer.
And it breaks everyone's brains.
Like everybody's standing there, like sort of lining up and someone will just walk up andorder a beer and they'll be like, what?
Like,
We just can't understand the concept of not lining up.
then so Tim and I just went down this rabbit hole of like, when I was a kid, I was gettingmad at little kids like in class when the teachers would say something like, time to line
up and people wouldn't line up.
(04:47):
And then we were talking about, what's like too much?
Like if you're waiting in line for tickets or you're waiting in line for lunch orsomething or brunch, like how many people can you save spaces for if you're saving spaces
before it's like rude and could incite violence?
And so I asked AI and I said, was like,
I think probably two.
So I asked AI and it's two.
(05:08):
If you go over two, then it's just like, right?
Yeah, it makes me really uncomfortable at the twins graduation.
We were sitting and there was another family that we recognized because their son isreally good friends with the twins.
And they were like, well, here, let's just save spots.
I had said, well, no, no, no, no.
(05:29):
If you guys are sitting there, that's okay.
We're still waiting for four more people.
Oh, no, no.
We'll save these spots.
I was like, eh.
I was feeling comfortable.
It's like, what about
It just doesn't seem fair, you know?
I'm very much, it goes back to grade school for me remembering like you line up and thenno cuts, no cuts.
(05:53):
You're taking cuts.
You're not supposed to cut.
Don't cut the line, you know?
would like-
How mad you get, like when we're driving or, God, think about this, because this is theother thing.
So you probably know this from In-N-Out, right?
Or anywhere else.
insane line that snakes around the block.
(06:14):
But what about the assholes that get up there?
You're waiting for like 45 minutes.
This is place here called Lovely's Burgers.
And it's inside of this brewery in Oakland.
And they're amazing burgers.
But usually when you're there, there's a line.
And it sometimes can take like 45 minutes.
And it never fails.
(06:36):
There's somebody who gets to the front of the line.
And then they get there.
And it's like they haven't even been thinking about their order.
And they're like, I don't know.
Should I do the regular burger patty or the impossible burger patty?
And you're like, ugh, like you've been waiting for 45 minutes.
How have you not thought of this?
So there you go.
That's my secret passage.
My secret passage is, it shouldn't be a secret, it really shouldn't.
(07:02):
We need more research, we need more information out there.
I am in the throes of perimenopause.
Holy shit.
No one warns you.
No, I went into a Reddit, ah this kind of support group Reddit thread about perimenopauseand menopause because there are days where I just, I don't understand what's happening.
(07:29):
Like the dizziness, like I'll have this dizziness, not enough dizziness that throws mybalance completely off, but like this kind of like,
this is weird, this going to go away?
Is this gonna get worse?
I was like, I can't drive today.
I don't feel comfortable driving.
This was yesterday.
So Jay had to do all the driving.
(07:51):
Cause I was just like, know, hot flashes, um it rage, weird itchiness.
I will get itchiness in my ears where I'm like, and I found out that's a fucking symptom.
I'm like, what the?
fuck is this itchiness?
Why is there a bug that crawled into my ear and died?
(08:12):
I don't understand.
It's like, ah, like.
And yeah, and it's like so unexpected for people who don't like jump scares.
Being in perimenopause is like being confronted by jump scares.
Like these weird sensations that pop up out of nowhere.
And yeah, there's not enough information.
(08:32):
There's not enough research done on it.
I was asked the other day, well, my partner, was like, how long does it last?
I'm like,
Doctors don't even have a fucking answer.
It can be 25 years.
It can be like 10.
Yeah, like some shit goes and so.
(08:54):
Oh, that's see that that's.
Well, I was in my 30s.
I didn't know what was going on.
was like, I'm a demon.
That's right.
Yeah, I was like, I'm a demon right now.
And I had no thought in my mind that it was menopause or anything.
I to my doctor, I was like, they don't tell you about like, this is probably TMI, but theydon't tell you about like all the changes in your private parts and like, you know, just
(09:18):
weird things that people start to experience.
I went in and she's like, so I told her, was like, I'm
I'm in menopause, I think, because my regular doctor tested me and was like, yeah, youhave no estrogen.
oh But she was like, so what's the goal here?
She's like, you want to keep it open for business?
I'm like, no one told me it closes for business.
(09:40):
No one told me anything about that.
Right?
Like some women, it just, yeah.
Yeah, there's a woman in the business um who, she was great.
about, just the way she communicated.
She was like, you know, there's so much shame in an industry that really fetishizes youth.
(10:03):
I mean, it's not just the adult industry.
It's all industries just really, really making youth the gold standard for like how womenshould strive to be young.
But she,
When she started going through it, she said, guys, this is fucking crazy.
Like she was having like pain in her vagina.
(10:24):
And it's like for a porn star, that's tough.
And she kind of just said, anyone that might be starting to go, come talk to me becauseI'm experiencing the worst of it.
you know, but I remember hearing about that and this was more than 10 years ago.
(10:45):
And I was like, oh, is that a thing?
Cause I didn't even know.
I thought, okay, so this thing happens and I'll just go talk to my doctor about it.
And he or she will fill me in on what to do and we'll be good.
And it's like, no, it's not how it works at all.
Like it's still so experimental, some of the shit, you know.
And there's not a lot of research, like you said, it's just not as an under.
(11:07):
Yeah.
I feel bad for people, our moms, our parents age, because I think they're really seeingthe effects of being estrogen deprived over the lifespan now.
And they're recognizing that we just didn't used to live this long and living withoutestrogen for that long, it affects all the systems in your body.
(11:31):
So anyway, and thank God for people like Mary Claire Haver, who are taking this up.
And I think our generation really is kind of the generation that's.
Right, acknowledging like, hey, we kind of need to have a conversation.
We need to talk about this.
like issues of, we talked about this with the Lindsay Clancy episode, uh postpartumissues.
(11:58):
just there's a lack of resources, lack of information for a lot of new mothers who, know,there's no way to tell how you're gonna respond after giving birth.
And then these women end up vilified.
You you end up being referred to as crazy, out of control, hysterical.
It's like, actually, there's, my body is on fire internally with that stuff.
(12:22):
But anyway, thanks gang for listening to, listening.
Yeah, I'm like, secret passage.
It shouldn't be a secret.
Exactly.
But Lea, let's go ahead and dive into our conversation on Katie Meyer and trigger warning.
(12:43):
Again, we are talking about some pretty uncomfortable stuff, death and suicide and mentalhealth.
So anyone that is uncomfortable, that just doesn't feel up to having this conversation orlistening to us, then you can move along.
It's okay.
I get it.
But yes, last week we were going to talk about Katie Meyer along with Madison Holleran,but Katie needs her own episode.
(13:13):
And this is a case, there's a legal case involved with this, a lawsuit that Katie Meyer'sparents have against Stanford University.
But before we get into that, let's talk about who Katie Meyer was and is still.
a lot of ways.
She is the reason why there's a law now that passed, Katie Meyer's law.
(13:39):
Yes, they passed a law that basically if you get caught in some sort of disciplinaryaction at your institution, at your school, that you can have an outside advocate help
you.
So navigate the process because she didn't have that.
So Katie Meyer was an extraordinary athlete from Stanford University.
(14:04):
She was a senior at Stanford University in 2022.
Excuse me, Bruno.
Bruno has a lot of opinions.
Okay, stay right there.
Yeah, she was a goalkeeper and the team captain for Stanford.
And she was also an extraordinary student and was applying to law school.
(14:26):
There's footage of her saves as goalkeeper.
She was like, there's this great documentary called, it's called Save the Katie MeyerStory, right?
On ESPN.
Wow, a tremendous, tremendous athlete, powerful, just, and so much sass.
I remember, I texted Geo's watching it and just like broken hearted watching this bit.
(14:49):
Like she was just like, she was such a badass.
Yeah, there's that part where she fucking someone from the opposing team got the ball inand then the player was like overheard saying like, well, it's the goalkeeper's fault or
whatever.
And then Katie, they end up winning the game because of Katie and Katie's just like goingup to the camera and she's like, she does the whole.
(15:14):
Yeah, shut your mouth.
So sassy.
But anyway, an incident happened.
Six months prior, so, because it took about six months for this whole thing to kind of godown.
uh Six months prior to her death, a young player on her team had uh a terrible experienceat a party.
(15:42):
This young player, young meaning she was 17, 17, so underage.
But a football, a Stanford football player had
forced himself on her in like...
think was like a stairway.
A stairwell, right, where no one could see and kissed her without her consent.
(16:03):
And he said, no one can see us here, which freaked her out.
Yeah.
And I can only imagine, you know, it's, very intimidating, very scary.
You don't know what to do.
No one, no one's there.
And she went to her team and she was very upset about it.
And Katie, Katie was understandably enraged on her behalf.
(16:29):
And so following that Katie came across this football player.
and she spilled hot coffee on him.
and
The player was the hot coffee like scalded him.
He went to the athletic trainer at the school and explained what happened because he was,I think it was like, hey, what do I do for this?
(16:58):
mean, it wasn't like he lost skin or anything like that.
was just, it was painful.
And then word got to the dean basically.
And the girl,
did not want to the young player that had been kissed by the football player didn't wantto press, didn't want to escalate things.
(17:21):
She didn't want to bring charges against him.
And the football player wanted to drop the whole thing.
Just didn't want to per, didn't want to get Katie in trouble.
Not, there's no way to know his reasoning why.
I think he just didn't want any attention on what had happened.
But.
Nevertheless, he didn't want things to escalate.
He just wanted things to end amicably.
(17:46):
However, the department of student condo.
I think so.
Yes, it was, I want to get the exact name down.
um Essentially the kind of governing body that oversees student conduct and studentbehavior wanted to move forward and investigate what had happened.
(18:18):
so Katie maintained that it was an accident.
insisted that it was unintentional.
And the department didn't believe her.
I think that there were witnesses and kind of words shared contradicting what Katie wassaying, saying like, oh no, she was pissed.
(18:43):
She did that.
She had her teammates back.
She was angry.
So the investigation took six months.
The department had six months to make a decision about whether they were going to moveforward.
And in the last possible minute of that six months, six month investigative process, theysent an email out at 7 p.m.
(19:15):
on that last possible day.
So you can imagine Katie thinking, whew, this is done.
Yeah, this is done.
I don't have to think about this anymore.
It's done.
She gets back to her dorm room and has received an email stating that they are movingforward with some sort of a hearing.
(19:38):
Yeah, they were going to have the process basically of having a hearing,
And it was, was, I think it was, and, and that the possible outcome for her would beexpulsion from the school.
Following that, that email, there was evidence that she frantically was searching all overthe web for how to represent herself, what to do.
(20:06):
She sent an email to the Dean saying, Hey, uh I, what,
I'm terrified, you know, what can I do?
But you know, she got an email back saying, do any of these particular dates and timeswork for having, you know, sitting down and having a meeting?
(20:30):
She chose a date, the soonest possible date.
She tried calling her ex-boyfriend who was a law student at the time to presumably gethelp with what to do, but he was not available.
He didn't get the call.
and then she took her life.
And I think that she just had written down on a note note thing, I'm scared, I'm scared.
(20:57):
So that is what happened.
2022, March 1st of 2022.
The thing that really stands out to me is how you see these uh videos of her playingsoccer and she is like, she seems so fearless.
(21:23):
Yeah.
Probably the hardest fucking position to play is goal.
most pressure.
The most amount of pressure, my oldest child was lacrosse goalie.
It was hell.
And obviously not at this level.
She's like at this elite fucking level uh for soccer.
(21:44):
And it's that thing, it's like the ball gets in, you're hated sometimes.
You catch the ball, you're just, the pressure is so insane.
And she's just, she's the team captain.
She is this force to be reckoned with, like in the camera.
just like, you know, she's like, what?
You know, just so tough.
(22:05):
And the captain, so she is rallying her players.
And then she was described by her mother as being like this like mama bear.
Like she wants to take care of people.
And her parents had instilled in her from a very early age, you have to take care ofpeople that can't take care of themselves.
You have to be a voice for those who don't have a voice.
(22:29):
And I think that she of course dumped the coffee on the football player on purpose becausewho's gonna fucking stick up for the 17 year old?
The school's not gonna fucking stick up for her.
No one's fucking sticking up for this girl.
So Katie's gonna fucking do it.
mean, it's also, it's just crazy that she would, the football player would say that hedoesn't want to move forward with anything, but they would anyway.
(22:56):
And then, and the other part though, that, the same thing happened on the other side wherehe did something weird without consent.
And she said she didn't want to press charges or whatever, but they, and they didn't.
like they could have, it's just not fair.
(23:16):
It doesn't seem fair that they would go.
So the argument I heard for them pursuing something with Katie and not the football playeris that there were no witnesses with the girl and the football player.
I think there were witnesses that saw Katie.
(23:37):
How about the girl he did it to?
She's a witness.
I know what you mean.
It's hard to.
it's hard to prove.
And then also, I think for the girl, for the 17 year old, it's just, this is where it,another example of sometimes victims don't move forward because it's like being assaulted
(24:03):
all over again.
You've got people trying to dig shit up about your past.
You've got,
You know, we've seen so many instances of victims just being, it's like an assault, acontinuous assault that just keeps happening and happening.
And it's hard because he's, someone made this point and it absolutely makes sense.
(24:24):
Like football and basketball at colleges, you're a god, you're a god basically.
Shit gets pushed under the rug time and time again.
Drunk drag racing, we're gonna...
not say anything about it.
What's that?
You're acting out and trashing a hotel room?
Shh.
No.
(24:44):
Yeah.
player, a basketball player.
So I wonder though, I wonder if he just tried to kiss her.
I mean, we're Generation X.
Like if I was at a party and somebody tried to kiss me and I didn't want them to, I wouldnot consider that an assault.
I would just be like, oh, this guy wanted to kiss me and blah, blah, Do we know if shereally actually felt super violated or if she was just going to her teammates and being
like, oh my god.
(25:05):
I mean, did she actually really feel like he was violating her?
Yeah, get, well, we'll never know.
Yeah.
it might be that she's like, I just was freaked out and I didn't like him.
You know, I didn't, I just didn't want that, but I don't want to press charges because Ijust, I don't want that heat.
You know, I don't want the whole football team hating me and all of that.
(25:29):
So, I who knows, but either way, I think Katie was just like, you know, another, you know,punk ass piece of shit, you know, picking on.
a girl that's like under fucking age, by the way.
all that to say that the reasons for moving forward with Kitty may have been, I mean,again, even if there were witnesses, who fucking cares?
(25:54):
Who fucking cares?
It was like a sunburn.
That's what, that's what.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It wasn't like she dumped hot scalding coffee.
And his skin like sloughed off.
like the guy in Indiana Jones.
Yeah.
And so, and again, yeah, no one wanted to move forward with this.
(26:18):
The football players like.
he seems cool, honestly, right?
He seemed like he was like, I don't care.
Like, no.
But also, couldn't he have stood up and said more?
Like, if it was me and I found out they were moving forward with stuff against someone Isaid not to.
Who knows though if he even knew?
There's so much we don't know about this, but I think plain and simple, the footballplayer and the other soccer player just wanted to just move on.
(26:48):
And I'm sure Katie just wanted to move on too.
And these guys were just too big for their britches, this department.
Stanford's Office of Community Standards took it upon themselves.
to move forward with disciplinary action against Katie Taylor despite the fact that no onewanted any of it.
(27:13):
The people involved in, for lack of a better word, the case, know, the young soccerteammate who was kissed against her will by the football player and the football player
himself, neither of them wanted to move forward with anything.
the football player just wanted to drop it.
(27:34):
And the Department of Community Standards just insisted on moving forward, which justreally feels like kind of throwing your weight around.
And the woman involved, looking at her social media, she was about that life.
She was really into like, she had a post, I think she had like an Instagram post, likeshe's wiped a lot of her stuff.
(28:01):
But the person in charge was like, I she posted something that was like, I got my mind onmy money and my money on my mind or whatever.
like she's
was drinking champagne.
She has champagne, right?
And she was starting a career as a counselor and charging people thousands of dollars todo their admissions.
(28:22):
Right, to help them.
Right.
I think it was like starting out, starting at like $4,000 or something to help them.
Yeah.
Which is just, which is just so gross.
It's so gross.
Do want me to tell you my perspective as someone who worked in higher education from 2003to 2012?
(28:42):
Yeah.
So when I was trying to figure out, know Ginger's trying to get in my lap.
em So I'm not even trying to hide the fact that I'm wearing leggings, by the way.
em It's all about the comfort today, folks.
Look, I got these.
(29:04):
I was like, am I going to wear a bra or not?
I did.
So I worked in higher education in a very high stress job that I used to call cancer jobfor when I was a student.
And then when I graduated, tried to become a therapist.
And then I thought, my God, maybe I'm not going to do that.
And I took six years off.
this whole time I'm working in higher education, both as a financial aid counselor andthen like the assistant director of the financial aid department at a private school,
(29:29):
which is different kind of student.
Then from like Stanford, Stanford, have a lot of traditional students.
So they come, they're very young and they're just, they're still cooking.
Like their brains are not fully formed.
The prefrontal cortex, which is in charge of executive functioning is very young.
doesn't like form until they're 25.
So there, we had adults, most, a lot of adults and people who were working and stuff atthat school.
(29:53):
But when I worked at UC Berkeley, we had a lot of people who were like 18, 19, verydifferent kind of engagement with the system.
But you know, when you work in higher education, you tend to not make a ton of money.
And you also are like, you have a lot of exposure to a lot of young students who don'thave never interacted with these kinds of systems before.
(30:18):
And there's a lot of anxiety often.
And there's a lot of uh
confusion or sometimes there's a lot of entitlement certain generations there's more andthen certain generations are just note like get shit done in a different way than other
generations and I saw it as I was working but there's sometimes there can develop thissense of I don't know what it is resentment or irritation or judgment toward the students
(30:42):
you know and their behavior there can also be I've seen people get high on their kind ofpower that they have especially when they're in those roles where they get to
decide someone's fate.
Maybe in their life they don't have that kind of power and they like this power a lot.
And so they use it, you know, in a way.
so just, having, I know I have a counseling background and that has totally shaped my mindin a different direction.
(31:07):
And sometimes I can't even remember what it's like to be like a civilian, but I would saythat in colleges, there is an awareness, especially at colleges like UC Berkeley, where I
worked, or Stanford, there's an awareness of
kind of the psychological stuff that people come in with being high achievers.
And there's an awareness of student mental health, especially in 2022 when she was, youbut there, but that office to me, I don't know how they were operating in the capacity
(31:39):
that they were operating in without a little bit more padding in terms of like what we'reputting the student through is actually extremely.
painful and could set off a crisis for someone.
Especially if we drag it on for six months and all this uncertainty.
First of all, she's like a star athlete.
(32:00):
She has a following on Instagram.
She's super out there with her personality.
She's a polarizing figure in that she expresses her emotions.
And whenever you do that, you have half the world hating you because they're the otherteam's supporters.
And you have half the world loving you because you're right?
And so she's in, you know, I listened to this wonderful interview with her parents.
(32:20):
And I'll link to it in the show notes, but they were saying, you know, that she's a socialmedia, she rode the wave of like Instagram when it first came out and that she appeared to
be very robust and like she could take a lot and like she had a thick skin, but that itreally does impact these high achieving high caliber athletes to have, you know, their
(32:44):
lives be so public and to have instant feedback from people, whether it's, especially whenit's hate.
And I can imagine her sitting there.
The fact, I'm just, as a person who's worked in higher education, I'm stunned by theirlack of, that they couldn't predict that something like this would happen if they treated
her the way they treated her and didn't offer her some kind of uh help in terms of likemental health support.
(33:11):
It's just shocking to me because she stood to lose not only like potential sponsorships inthe future, her
All her fans, her, right?
And her future, this future she had been working toward and was, you know, so like theamount of pressure they were putting on, ah, she was 18?
Was she 18?
No, was 22.
(33:32):
She was about to graduate.
So still not fully formed.
so the one thing that her parents talked about in this interview, which I thought was soimportant and also speaking from someone who's worked in higher education, it's like they
were talking about how shocking it was for them because she had talked to them abouteverything, right?
And that she didn't bring this to them.
(33:52):
But they also thought she's not a person who would ever kill herself.
And they sort of see it as it was a crisis.
brought on by this.
There was no history of anxiety or depression, nothing that they thought could lead tothis.
That's what their mom said.
But she was on medication.
for ADHD, right?
Yes.
(34:13):
Yeah.
So no history of like major depressive disorder.
It could be that it was a mistake that came up, that she did have major depressivedisorder.
That was probably a mistake, but it was ADHD that she had.
Yeah.
So her mom said that she had none of the mental.
I mean, with ADHD, there is a heightened risk around suicide, but it's like 5 % orsomething.
(34:35):
it's of things.
Yeah.
mean, think a little bit of a lot of things, like maybe having, there's so much in termsof the environment when you grow up with ADHD before you get diagnosed and all the stuff
you kind of internalize about how come it's so easy for everyone else and not for me, Imust be dumb or other things like, impulsivity, but also like,
(34:57):
rejection sensitivity or stuff around, I don't know, emotion regulation.
I wrote down a little bit about that because I looked it up.
basically, like the parents were saying, and I agree, that there's an issue around sendingpeople to school when they're 18, 19, 20, 21, until your brain's not really fully formed
(35:19):
in the prefrontal cortex area until like 25.
But you're sending these kids off to school.
They want to be adults.
They want to be adulting.
But you have absolutely no legal right to their, there's FERPA and then there's HIPAA.
So you don't have any legal right to their education information about what's going on.
And you don't have any legal right to their mental health records.
(35:40):
And you, they have to sign a release.
Your kid has to be willing to sign a release for you to ever have access to any of thosethings.
And to me, that's the biggest question in this whole case is like, how do you navigatehaving a kid who's not actually fully baked?
going into school and facing stuff like this by themselves and you may or may not be ableto know unless they tell you.
(36:02):
I mean, guess the answer is like talk to your kid, but they were talking to her.
Right.
And this never came up for six months.
She was holding on to this.
Yeah.
This this bizarre, like disciplinary action, this thing like held over her head for sixwhole months, keeping it to herself.
(36:24):
Ugh.
Worried.
Like scared.
scared, also simultaneously waiting for an answer back from Stanford Law School becauseshe was waiting to hear.
It just seems punitive, like unnecessary.
does.
And the language in the email where there was nothing in it that gave her any fuckinggrace at all.
Like, hey, this is, don't worry.
(36:46):
This is standard.
When we get reports, blah, blah, we'll be due the research.
There's just some stuff to indicate it wasn't an accident.
If you need to talk to someone, call this fucking number.
Nothing.
was just out the gate.
It was aggressive.
The language was aggressive and folks, can look, it's a long fucking email.
(37:11):
But essentially making it very clear in the email that the consequences of her being foundguilty essentially was losing, uh was not being able to graduate, losing her degree, all
the fucking hard work that she had put in all the way up to that point.
oh
unbelievable to me that they could deny her degree.
(37:32):
of any behavioral issues.
She never fucking did anything wrong.
uh Stellar student, stellar uh role model.
I mean, she was a great face for Stanford University for women's soccer.
She was like the face of it and well liked by everyone.
No issues in her classes, no issues in the dorms, no issues.
(37:56):
This one thing, this one fucking thing.
that no one involved wanted anything to do with.
Even the fucking football player didn't want to touch it, didn't want anything to do withit.
And they could have let this go.
They could have, but it's that thing of just fucking high on our own fucking supply.
(38:17):
I just know.
Right, that's her name.
I just want to make sure.
Ali, it's something, you know, let's get the right name before we slam her.
Sorry guys, I get so so heated
It's terrible.
I mean, think about this.
I don't know.
It just seems like I can imagine her pushing that key, like the send button, with likesadistically.
(38:38):
Like, you know, I've seen people in the education field harbor toward students, which is,I I know it comes from their own burnout and, you know, maybe their own like negative
experiences over time with students.
it's really, that's I wondered when I first heard this.
was like, ugh.
Like what did she have against her?
(39:01):
Yeah, and apparently uh she was the lead dean responsible for preventing student suicides.
hi!
I think he got some work to do there.
And prior to Katie, there had been like four other suicides before hers.
(39:24):
Not in the month or even, I mean, was like inside of two years.
That's a lot.
I would think you'd be on high alert.
Yeah, every school I worked at, I was a therapist at CSU East Bay, and that was a lot ofwhat we talked about.
The only thing I can think of, well, no, she was supposed to be the person in charge ofsuicide.
(39:44):
One thing I will say is that I think it's terrible in terms of our training asprofessionals, and she wasn't even a therapist, but like all training in any position,
that we never really talked.
We got six hour, it's like there's a six hour class requirement for suicide prevention andsuicide treatment to get your degree, least my degree as a master's.
(40:08):
I'm just thinking like it doesn't take someone who's like super, super empathic torecognize the pressure you're putting on someone when you do that to them.
It's shocking to me that they just let it roll on like they did.
I don't know if.
if she had shown more symptoms, if she had showed up to counseling and said, I'm feelingsuicidal, I can't handle this.
(40:37):
But then the therapist wouldn't be able to tell the administrator unless she signed arelease.
So there's all this stuff where this stuff gets bound up.
And I know why.
You've got to protect people.
If she was an imminent threat to herself, if she told them she was going to commitsuicide, she had the means, she had a plan,
they could call her parents or they could call this, you they could say to try to preventit.
(41:00):
But anything short of that, like she did show up, right?
And say that she was having suicidal ideation.
Oh, that was Madison.
was.
Okay.
So.
Yeah, is uh the difference.
I mean, there's many differences between Madison and Katie, but with Madison, she had beenhaving for uh at least for an entire semester uh had been uh dealing with these uh with
(41:31):
suicidal ideation, anxiety and depression and was trying to get help.
that the
The signs were there and she was asking for help.
With Katie, it sounds like there was nothing happening that was indicating that she washaving any sort of a mental health crisis until this.
(41:58):
What's so trippy is she started her, her parents talked to her by FaceTime the nightbefore and they said there were no clues.
She was buying tickets to, like her mom was buying her tickets for spring break.
She was buying tickets to another trip with her friends.
She was making future plans.
I just imagine a rubber band, like stretch, stretch, stretch.
I imagine myself like hitting refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh.
(42:19):
When's that letter coming?
And thinking, oh my God, they're going to let me off maybe.
Like maybe there'll be some relief.
I'll get one today.
She's like boom.
by the fact that it was probably 6 p.m.
You know, she's talking to her parents, like everything's good.
I'm not sure what time she spoke to them, but she gets that email at fucking seven andeverything that she was dreaming about and hoping for.
(42:44):
You know, one of the things that her mom made a point of saying in this ESPN documentarywas that Stanford was her home.
Like that was her home.
and she loved it there and she was thriving, you know?
But I can't imagine how just bizarre, like you've got this one minute and everything isokay and then your daughter is gone.
(43:17):
Ugh.
And then her mother also said that this is just a thing where, know, Katie didn't want toburden her parents.
You know, it's like that six months, that whole thing.
And I had the thought, that the fear and the anxiety too with Katie is knowing that sheprobably did do it on purpose.
(43:38):
You know, the coffee, that wasn't an accident.
And I'm not faulting her because I would fucking be lying too.
You know, if this, you know.
I wasn't there, all that kind of stuff.
But when you know that this is a department that takes student conduct very seriously andyou essentially assault a fellow student, you're automatically in the wrong.
(44:04):
And it was an impulsive act.
She did it honestly with good intentions.
just, no one's sticking up for this young girl on her team.
She's gonna stick up for her.
She's the team captain.
She's gonna take care of her.
because she can't take care of herself.
Like she's being that mama bear that her parents raised her to be, which is I'm gonnastick up for this player, fuck this guy.
(44:27):
I can imagine it.
It's like, you're gonna force yourself on a girl?
I'm gonna force myself on you with this fucking hot cup of coffee.
And it was an impulsive act, indicative of somebody probably with ADHD, like just likeimpulsive action, not thinking things through real quick, just in the moment, just having
that heated reaction.
And knowing maybe like, shit, I'm not gonna be able to, you know, cause my thought was,why doesn't she just go through with the hearing and then see what happens.
(44:56):
But if she knew she was in the wrong and if there were witnesses saying, no, she did it onpurpose, then she's humiliated in this everything.
And her parents, you know, having her back all the way through college, she has thispressure to be that perfect.
(45:16):
amazing star athlete student, everything goes out the window.
Her sense of self goes out the window.
Her identity as being this star Stanford soccer player goes out the window.
so she loses everything.
And to draw a parallel in a way between Penn University of Pennsylvania and Stanford isyou've got these two Ivy League institutions.
(45:41):
People put Ivy League institutions on such a high pedestal.
but there's so much pressure associated with these schools.
And you see this pressure with Madison, just striving so hard for perfection whenperfection is just, it's unattainable.
And a lot of people already thought she was perfect, right?
(46:03):
Even with her 3.5 GPA, which is still like, that's still like, honor roll.
It's also just like, what strikes me about the whole thing is it's so unforgiving.
Can't there just be a way back from that?
Can't there just be a learning from a mistake and some kind of way she could make it up?
(46:27):
know, like- Talking about Katie?
Yeah.
Why does it have to, why does her life have to be ruined because of like, it's just,there's something so like-
Just harsh about it.
Is there no like kind of um measuring stick here?
Like, okay, attack a professor for a bad grade, right?
(46:50):
Versus a disagreement where a perfectly capable grown ass fucking big ass football playercan handle a hot fucking cup of coffee.
She spilled on him.
Did she spill the whole thing on him?
Idea.
Like, I'm not advocating.
He's alive.
Yeah, I'm sure he didn't lose practice time.
He didn't even want to deal with it.
(47:12):
He's like, whatever.
I don't want to fucking.
uh
I just I am pissed off at the freaking person that he told No the trainer it's like
it might be standard.
You know what I mean?
It might be a standard thing that happens.
Like, I'm not sure how it got to them, but the point is they heard it.
(47:35):
And it's like, you really want to, you really want to go forward with this?
Of all the fucking things.
That's the thing, I swear to God, I'm so glad I'm Generation X.
This shit just did not happen.
mean, we were raised by wolves in institutions too.
I told you about how I got pants once with my MZ Hammer pants on.
(47:56):
So this is, the boys got away with a lot of stuff in high school, but yeah, I had Hammerpants on and people would wear those pants with elastic waistbands.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, these didn't.
These were just rayon pants with like, think, not sexy at all.
And they're like pajamas.
(48:16):
And so this guy comes up and he pants me.
And so I go to class.
I'm like, I got to go to the office because uh this guy pants me.
And my teacher looked at me.
she was like, this is a teacher.
She looked at me.
And she was like, well, I mean, don't you think you were asking for it with those pants?
I'm all, I'm like, these pants?
(48:38):
Pretty sure they wear these underneath burkas.
Like not sexy, not a mini skirt.
But even if it was a mini skirt, would I have deserved to gotten pants?
No.
But yeah, it's like that back.
mean, seriously, that would not even register on anyone's radar if that happened duringour college years, right?
You just be like, this person, yeah, got pissed off and people would laugh about it maybe.
(49:01):
They wouldn't go to the trainer and be like, And the trainer wouldn't run it up the lineto the dean.
I'm pretty sure.
Which it also makes me think, like, it also makes me think, was there a bias against herbecause she was badass and kind of...
Well that's what I was wondering ah because I hate saying this but it's like just puttingit out there.
(49:28):
So that Dean did not have a prestigious academic background.
Let's put it that way.
That Dean basically got her degree or certification from a school with like a 95 %acceptance rate, right?
Definitely not a Stanford type school.
(49:49):
And this isn't me being judgy and snooty about where people go to school, but.
I think it mattered to this dean that she was now dean of Stanford.
and she has some power.
Yeah.
And so I did wonder, it's like, here's Katie.
She's beautiful, beautiful girl, incredible athlete, and just like a golden girl in a lotof ways.
(50:12):
I keep repeating it, but like it's a big deal.
She was captain of a really fucking great team, a recognized goalie, goalkeeper,outstanding goalkeeper, and a stellar student to the point where she
applied to Stanford Law School.
don't apply to Stanford for law school if you don't think there's a good chance or adecent chance you'll get in.
(50:37):
is amazing.
honestly, I'm so angry that she is dead.
This is so unnecessary.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, she's from Newberry Park, which is like neighbors to me, like Newberry Park HighSchool, which uh my oldest son wrestled there.
Not, he wasn't a student there, but there was uh some tournaments there.
(51:00):
OK, so here's my question.
Check this out.
So this happens in institutions.
They don't always talk to each other, the different parts.
in smaller, like a JFK, we just walk down the hall, like, oh, this person's havingtrouble.
If they don't get this, whatever, they're not going to get their financial aid.
(51:21):
And then we could intervene.
I'm so shocked.
I mean, I don't know if this happened, and maybe they just weren't very effective.
But if you have an athlete that's going through something like this, that departmentshould be communicating with her coaches.
And the coaches play a huge role in these players' mental health and their mind.
(51:42):
is such a good point.
Like that is such a good point.
Yeah.
And also, I'll go a step further.
ah Well, I don't know if this would be applicable because technically Katie was a legaladult.
I was going to say also letting the parents fucking know.
That's my question.
So that's my thing about the FERPA and the HIPAA thing.
(52:03):
If your kid goes to school, if I was a parent, I would ask them if they would feelcomfortable with having a release signed, at least while they're 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.
Their brains are, I remember when I turned 24, I was like, whoa, I feel way smarter than Iever felt before.
I could feel my brain, my prefrontal cortex forming and taking shape.
(52:27):
And the thing with brain development, and they talk about this a lot in the podcast too,and it's a really good point, is that the middle brain is developed, but that's like the
emotional brain.
That's the brain that is impulsive.
And you don't have the prefrontal cortex to check that yet, fully formed.
So you have these kids running around with all these stresses, all the stresses of thelife changed of becoming uh a college student and an athlete in her case, and their
(52:54):
parents can't do
hear anything from anyone unless the kid tells them.
And so I think at least somebody should have encouraged her.
Like, listen, talk to your parents.
Get them involved.
I know you probably don't want to because you feel ashamed.
There's so many things that could have happened to help her with this.
(53:16):
Even if she didn't outwardly seem upset by it, like do the math.
Like, of course she's upset by it.
Like, her whole life is hanging in the balance here.
Um, so it just, it's just shocking the failures at all different levels to me.
Also, here's another thing just to go along with what you're saying as far asopportunities to give her some sort of help reassurance something.
(53:47):
And that is in that when she responded to that email saying, essentially disclosing like,I'm freaked out.
She's like, I'm just.
I'm distraught.
There was an opportunity there for the person, cause she got a response back right away,you saying, well you can do any of these times work of saying, do you need to talk to
(54:13):
someone?
Hey, I hear you're distraught.
I hear that.
I understand.
Please don't worry too much.
suicide check?
Like are you having suicidal ideation?
Have you talked to your parents?
Anything?
Yeah.
Something that like started a dialogue with her.
And I maintain that when you work in that department, when you're essentially in chargeof, I mean, really the wellbeing of students, mean, students that are maybe on the
(54:45):
receiving end of being whatever, when there's the threat of, when there's the threat ofexpulsion, I think you forfeit your right to be like, office hours are closed, you know.
Don't send the fucking email at 7 p.m.
then.
If you're not gonna be available to help a student.
Yep.
(55:06):
And play dumb about the high stakes of being a Stanford University student and what thatentails.
It's ridiculous.
I was thinking, I think I brought this up to you.
I mentioned it.
It's like, you you look at, there's a reason why when you...
get tested for something like cancer.
(55:29):
They don't just send you an uh email or a notice saying, you, yeah, you have cancer.
have, tested positive for HIV.
It's eight o'clock at night and there's nothing you can, there's a reason why they don'tgive you potentially bad news.
And I say potentially because people can live with HIV now, right?
(55:52):
You can survive it.
There are people that beat cancer, but it's terrifying to hear that your life can be overpotentially, and they don't do that.
So you don't fucking send an email saying, hey, guess what?
Everything you worked your ass off for and you're like set to graduate in two months, thatmight not happen.
(56:13):
So sorry.
You don't fucking do that.
some callous fucked up English fingershit.
you've got these four other students not long prior who killed themselves.
Madison Holleran.
Madison Holleran killed herself.
Like, this is a thing that happens.
I mean, that's the thing I'm talking about.
(56:34):
Is there some kind of fatigue people get?
And they get compassion fatigue or?
It's true.
It happens.
You do lose.
I lost a lot of my empathy a lot of times with students.
they used to drive me crazy.
um But not all of them.
But I had like 10,000, 15,000 students I was working with at Cal.
(56:57):
But I also was working with the student athlete population who got
They got special services, and they got special treatment, and it's for good reason,right?
It's a very important part of the school.
So that's my other thing.
I'm like, OK, so you have somebody who's like a star student athlete.
Didn't they win the championships that year?
Yeah.
So you have this star student athlete.
(57:21):
Don't you think you would wake up to other pressures, like we can't lose this one?
Or not to say that everyone isn't important, because everyone is important, but you
especially someone who's so high profile, like just, I'm just, I feel like it just feelslike a personal vendetta to me.
feels like.
(57:42):
It really does.
uh Or just absolute, just stupid negligence because Lisa Caldera also was in charge ofalcohol on campus or something about like drinking, students and drinking.
under her watch, something like an insane number of students were admitted to theemergency room with alcohol related.
(58:06):
So I'm like, yeah, clearly she's not doing great at her job.
Like clearly that there's a problem there.
But again, I know we kind of went off on this, but it should be said that Katie's parentshave sued Stanford University for wrongful death.
(58:27):
And I think there's a very good chance that they will.
I mean, really they had a responsibility.
especially given what the Dean was tasked with to act in Katie's best interest, regardlessof like, let's say that it's like, well, she did this thing on purpose, we think, but we
(58:50):
also have a responsibility to be mindful about the way that we share this information andlet her know what her fucking rights are, right?
She had to go Googling around, like, what do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
Yeah, right.
And that's what her parents are that legislation's kind of about, I think, having someoneoutside.
Well, the system circles the wagons and tries to protect the system, which Stanford istrying to do now.
(59:17):
So you're in that system.
So they're saying, yeah, get somebody from outside who can help you look at this and helpyou deal with this.
I want to read the legislation.
I haven't read it.
But I think it's mandatory, which I think is important because very
If, because that's the thing, if they had mandated that she talk to someone like herparents or I don't know, a coach, something, someone could have pushed a little bit to
(59:41):
say, you know, this isn't good for you to be handling this on your own.
We want to support you.
We'll, we, we back you all the way.
We'll be your witnesses, you know, whatever.
Like also a little more context, please, about the different.
kinds of punishments.
I think you have just said this, but yeah, the different types of punishments.
It was like a blanket, like this blanket thing put over her.
(01:00:04):
It's like, you're going to be expelled for that?
Right.
It's like, yeah, there was no like, we have to look at it and evaluate it.
And then there might be a way back from, there might be something that you can do, likepick up garbage on the side of the road.
I'm just going to put like something like that where it's like.
Like, you're gonna kick this person out of your fucking school.
(01:00:25):
It just shows you how Stanford is so high on its own supply.
is it really, just, yeah.
Like, ew, like, OK, fine, like, yuck.
You know?
Like, it's so yucky that that whole, we've got a code of code.
OK, sure, totally.
But I would love to see other actions that were taken.
(01:00:46):
I'm sure they're looking at this for the case.
But like, if there were other actions that they ignored that were on the same sort of onpar with hers, like, and how what happened and like what if in other cases, who have they
expelled and who have they not?
And what, you know, I mean, like what is their criteria for deciding and how often do theyactually expel people?
(01:01:10):
And what would be even worse is that if they never really did, if they kind of had thesehearings and that they didn't really have a high rate of doing this and she stood a good
chance of making it, but no one could talk to her or give her that context.
which an advocate would have been able to do.
Like what her parents are trying, what this law that passed is, yeah, you call the personup here, let me let you know what your actual rights are here.
(01:01:35):
Don't even fucking worry about it.
This is, like that would go so far.
That could have saved her life, basically, if there was somebody that she could havecalled.
or a higher thing you could appeal to.
Like honestly, I would sue the shit out of a school that tried to like, especially afterall the money she spent to go to school there, if they would have just denied She got a
(01:01:58):
full right.
uh
She got a full ride, which is like, yeah, I was wondering, because I was doing someresearch about like, what was at stake?
Because I thought if, you know, her parents essentially, if there was like, her parentstook out loans or had not taken out loans, but had given up a lot for her to go to school
there.
she got, I mean, it's a testament to what an absolute, absolutely incredible studentathlete she was.
(01:02:24):
She got a full ride there, but you know, she's...
She was essentially an ambassador for the school in a lot of ways, but I can't, can't.
ah So it makes me so angry.
It makes me so angry because I'm like, essentially she was fucking bullied.
(01:02:44):
I'm sorry.
And how about this?
I thought about this too.
It's like, okay, so technically the young soccer player didn't want to push, pursuecharges against this football player.
the football player didn't wanna pursue charges against Katie.
They wanted to go ahead and punish Katie or quote unquote investigate, cause maybe therewere witnesses that saw her dump the coffee on him.
(01:03:13):
I would say that the young soccer player, let me put it this way, of course there wouldn'tbe fucking witnesses to the football player forcing himself on the soccer player.
course there wouldn't be.
uh Of course he's gonna take her to a uh dark deserted area to force himself on her.
(01:03:34):
Mm.
I need to read more about that.
didn't know that was the case.
But yeah.
mean, right, he's going to make the decision to do that without witnesses.
Exactly, exactly.
So like what is the bigger problem here?
Him molesting an underage girl, because she was only 17.
(01:04:00):
What's the bigger issue?
Didn't you guys have a problem with, I don't know, fucking Brock Turner?
You know what I'm saying?
Like remember that kind of stain on your institution, that guy?
Remember when that fucking happened?
And I know that this wasn't a rape and I know that these witnesses came and pulled him offof her or like yelled at him and all that.
(01:04:23):
You can see it happening.
But it's just, it's, you could make the argument that the witnesses were the people shetold right after that this happened.
You know what I mean?
The 17 year old.
But like, what's more egregious?
I know.
You know, and it's especially when it's a standard practice that a lot of times victims ofsexual assault don't want to pursue it because they're afraid.
(01:04:50):
They're afraid of what the repercussions are.
All this to say, I know this is all speculation on that.
I wasn't there.
I don't know.
But it's just, it's interesting that they choose to pick on the girl that was trying tostick up for a young victim.
Mm.
and potentially destroy her life and bully her.
(01:05:13):
They bullied her.
So, cause it's a thing it's like, well actually nothing was gonna happen.
That's a scare tactic we do.
We wanna just terrorize the person being investigated.
And then we, know, nine times out of 10, we don't move forward.
We just wanna, we just wanna like throw our weight around and really scare her and showher who's boss.
You know, I don't know.
It's just like.
(01:05:36):
Part of me is like, OK, so what can we learn from this going forward?
Hopefully they have learned something from this and will.
I mean, what they're asserting is that Katie killed herself because of her parents.
That's their position.
oh
she wrote that essay about my parents are controlling or whatever.
(01:05:58):
That's so interesting.
It doesn't every kid at that age go through that phase of like, my parents, they're justso controlling, right?
And it's also a case of sometimes it's like, the sake of getting that A, you're gonna be alittle hyperbolic, you know?
It could be that that was just a method Katie was using.
Maybe she was embarrassed about the fact that she had like perfect parents, whichhonestly, her family did seem pretty fucking awesome, right?
(01:06:26):
Just like Madison's parents.
was like, I wish they were my parents.
Fucking Katie's parents are dope.
I mean, she had her dad on, like her dad.
Like.
podcast episode.
She brought her father on.
What does that tell you?
I love I love my fucking dad, you know, it's so
It's a par for the course for that age to just sort of be pushing away from your parents,right?
(01:06:49):
And kind of like with aggression sometimes, you know?
And it's like the cool, it's like the way, it's what college kids do.
Like, my parents, they're so, but clearly they had a good solid relationship with her andah that's so sad.
Stanford's trying to throw them under the bus, huh?
Well, they're saying, hey, look, we know it's tragic and that sucks and everything.
(01:07:10):
But, you know, she did write this paper on how it was hard measuring up or whatever.
And it could be that she did have a hard time because she wanted to be perfect for herparents.
I mean, she didn't want to burden them with this six month nightmare investigation thatwas going on.
You know, she kept that to herself.
Yeah, sometimes people, there's something like, oh, I see it all the time.
(01:07:34):
Well, in myself, there are certain things, in other people, in my work, I see there's justsomething about certain things that people will not tell.
And it takes them a long time to warm up to sharing.
And a lot of the time it has to do with just feeling shame, you know?
Like I feel ashamed of that.
And it's interesting, this is subtle, but like in the interview I heard with her mom,
(01:07:59):
and her dad, her mom was saying, you know, yeah, she was really out there with her socialmedia.
They were talking about social media and how if you ask all the coaches, like what's trulydifferent between like when they were growing up and when these kids, kids are growing up
that are impacting their mental health, they all say social media.
And she said, just talking about how she was out there and she's like, and she would putstuff out there and she was like, brave, know, stuff would come back and people would have
(01:08:23):
things to say and they weren't always nice.
And she's like, I would say to her, oh, just dial it back.
Can you take that off?" Just kind of coaching her around that.
in that, kind of could hear that maybe Katie would be easy to internalize a message ofbeing, especially with her out there personality as a woman, be really easy to internalize
(01:08:48):
a message of being too much.
And so like when the coffee spill thing, coffee throwing, that was an instance of...
too much and like maybe this is total speculation on my part, but you know, just feelinglike that is one thing I cannot, I feel so ashamed and guilty because I did that.
Like I can't even get the words out of my mouth to tell my parents, right?
(01:09:11):
Cause it's just too painful to, it's too painful.
Right.
uh Yeah.
That's why I wish someone would have been working on her, you know, like at least one ofher coaches or, know,
to soften it a little bit because shame just sort of festers in silence, right?
You just sort of sit there feeling ashamed and it takes actual work like humor, likesharing it with other people, time passing, knowing you're not alone, knowing that people
(01:09:41):
still love you.
And no one had the opportunity unless they were doing the work to see, unless they werenotified she was in this process and they were, you know what I mean?
But I don't know if she let on that she was
Because you see the podcast that she did, and that was right before she ended her life.
m
(01:10:01):
was very upbeat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's the thing too.
And also being a team captain is she's got to, if she's scared, she's not going to let on.
If she's dealing with shit, she's not going to let on because she has to be strong.
She has to be powerful.
And that is, is, you know, two.
(01:10:24):
kind of add to what you're saying about like the social media piece, because we see thatwith Madison Holler and to in last week's episode is this, this uh sense of the, the face
that we put forward of strength, of happiness, of joy, of, you know, success and, what,what we're masking inside.
(01:10:47):
for, for Madison, I mean, she was trying to get privately, she was trying to get help.
privately meaning like her parents knew.
She was trying to get help because she was dealing with actual like a mental healthcrisis.
Katie's came on so quick.
mean, it is like when you talk about like stretching the rubber band and then it snaps.
(01:11:07):
It's just that six months of just waiting, the waiting game, the waiting game, probablylike ruminating, ruminating, ruminating.
Okay, I think I'm gonna be okay.
No, I'm not gonna be okay.
I think this is gonna work out.
don't know.
You all of this stuff going, going, going.
keeping it close to her chest and tell that snap of that email.
(01:11:28):
And then at that point, that and then it's worth mentioning that she hadn't gotten arefill on her ADHD medication, has, like some of the, like the sudden, like when you go
off of it really fast, very suddenly, which it sounds like happened, uh suicidal thoughts,suicidal ideation is a side effect of suddenly.
(01:11:52):
stopping the meds.
So who knows if that kind of played into it, like dealing with her symptoms of also justthe ADHD coming back full force.
And it's not clear why there was like some mix up, some problem with the doctor that was-The insurance.
(01:12:12):
And so that may have played a role also in just this absolute crisis moment that she had.
But yeah, so the trial is set for 2026.
I'm not sure which month for the Katie Myers Parents versus Stanford University.
(01:12:36):
And we'll see how that unfolds.
But a lot of people, a lot of students at Stanford had complaints about this department atStanford.
The Department of Student Conduct.
wish them luck.
I hope they win and I hope things change.
Just have a little more empathy here, folks.
(01:13:00):
And a little more, that whole thing about the sticky thing about disclosure and parents.
It's very individual, but yeah, I think your hands are tied as an institution in terms ofgoing to the parents, but I could easily see if I was in the position of that dean.
(01:13:21):
walking over to the sports department and saying, look, she's going through an intenseprocess with us.
so can you guys make sure that she's getting support or something?
That's all it might have taken.
Took it.
That's all it might have taken.
Took it.
Yeah.
No, it's true though.
(01:13:41):
uh Something like that.
yeah, a coach, even contacting a therapist, like in the counseling department and saying,hey, you know what?
We've got this thing going.
If you could please reach out to her and then the counselor can say, hey, you're goingthrough this.
So I've been made aware of this thing.
(01:14:02):
This is confidential.
Call me, text me anytime, you know.
You're not alone.
Dude, I don't think I could handle that.
Honestly, I have this thing about making, well, obviously about making mistakes.
I have this, my dad was a cop, so maybe this is where it comes from.
But I have this total fear about something like this happening to me.
(01:14:25):
And this whole episode we've been talking, I've had this pain in my gut.
Like, there's something so awful about that.
sitting there, living your life, going through the motions.
not knowing your fate, being on trial, like literally being on trial.
And I think about like Karen Reed or like, how do you survive the not knowing and theuncertainty and the fact that your whole life could change on a dime?
(01:14:51):
Not that she couldn't have come back from that, but that's the way I think she needed isshe needed people to say, so, so what, so what the worst thing that ever could happen to
you could happen to you, but you can still survive that.
And you can.
You can appeal it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can, you can appeal this.
just, it's, I keep going.
I, and I know that we, could, we could spend all day just going back to this one thing,which is, which is, what the fuck, dude?
(01:15:17):
It's not like she like ran, did a running start from the back of, of like a lecture halland like assaulted or teach her.
It's not like she like broke someone's nose.
It's not, you know what I mean?
know.
uh
kissed someone against their will.
Well, mean, that's so funny.
(01:15:39):
like, well, isn't that how people do it?
I don't know.
I just remember being at parties and people kissing each other without being like, can Ikiss you?
Anyway, but I know that that's the thing now.
And I agree.
I think it's a good thing.
But yeah, it's like, I feel bad because I keep thinking, am I going to come away from thissitting in my bedroom tonight trying to go to sleep thinking, did I just say that it was
(01:16:02):
no big deal that someone dumped hot coffee on someone?
It's not, it's a thing.
it's not like it's not like a big, big deal.
Well, I guess the point is, like, it's, she did is technically assault.
If I'm going to say that the football player kind of forcing himself on this girl isassault, I also have to admit that when you pour hot coffee on somebody, when you dump hot
(01:16:28):
coffee, and again, maybe it was an accident, the hot coffee ending up on the footballplayer was assault, and I'm not trying to downplay it.
But to not look at the context of the situation, to look at it completely outside ofcontext.
It's not like he cut in line and so she fucking dumped hot coffee.
It's not like he bumped into her so she dumped hot coffee.
(01:16:52):
Look at the context.
You have to look at the whole thing and understand.
Also understand that it's not that it was, it's like, are you really going?
to take everything away from this girl, everything away from her because of a mistake,this one mistake.
(01:17:16):
This one mistake, she didn't take like a fucking uh tire iron to his knee.
She didn't cripple him.
know, she didn't, it sucks.
It's a shitty thing that fucking happened.
It shouldn't have happened.
Technically, it absolutely shouldn't have.
And I'm not trying to, and I know it's, I keep going back to it's not like she assaulted,it's just, it just doesn't seem fair that if they're gonna let that thing die, the kiss,
(01:17:47):
if they're gonna let that die, and it's fine.
You know, the girl, maybe she's right.
Maybe it's gonna be a lot worse for her if they moved forward with it and then you've gotan angry football team and she's afraid for her safety.
Like, I understand that.
Or whatever, we don't know why she didn't go through it.
We don't know exactly what happened.
(01:18:07):
But the point is she didn't wanna pursue it and so they let it go.
So they should have fucking let this thing.
I know.
Can't we just apologize?
Sorry.
Remember when you could just say you're sorry.
Sorry.
Didn't have to like institute.
Again, that's the thing I'm saying is like, think that these institutions sometimes, forwhatever reason, it's like being in a cult or something.
(01:18:34):
like, I'm trying to figure out a way to describe this.
like, it's like a hyper fixation on discipline because discipline is your job.
you know what I mean?
It's almost like the Stanford prison experiment.
You know, this is my role and I take it very seriously.
You know, like, mm, you know, I'm going to like do what I can to like, I just looked likemy mom when I did that.
(01:18:58):
Just a little too identified with one's work and role and power and.
So do a better job at it.
I know exactly.
Right.
That's like that's fine.
Do a fucking better job at it.
Well, you know that thing about evil?
Yeah.
And incompetence and how like it's usually incompetence.
(01:19:19):
But it looks evil, but it is probably incompetence.
But maybe a little both.
Like, yeah, I just feel like if they had just said, okay, we're going to call the footballplayer and we're going to call Katie Meyer into a conference room, let's hash it out.
Yeah.
You know, wouldn't that be better?
Learning, learn from it.
you could actually, shaming people doesn't really, I mean, it does sort of sometimesextinguish behaviors, but it doesn't really like allow you an opportunity to kind of grow
(01:19:49):
and change and be forgiven and forgive and make sense of things and understand.
Yeah, it's stupid.
And I just, I hope they change that.
I hope they have some, or maybe they, maybe that was an option and they just didn't takeit.
Yeah, I guess we'd have to look more into it.
(01:20:09):
ah I'm sure that with the lawsuit, they've probably like gone deep into it.
ah What was available, the information that was available made it seem like all they putin the email to her, which I'm sure she read several times through was, this is what
you're facing.
(01:20:29):
And it's like, really?
Because sometimes people beat the shit out of each other and then they're assigned angermanagement.
So there was there's another fucking option.
Okay, it seems like you did this out of anger So now we're requiring you spend the weekendattending an anger management course.
How about that?
I know.
It's like we don't make mistakes here at Stanford.
(01:20:52):
Yeah, we don't ever fuck up.
Maybe you didn't get the memo before we let you in to our hallowed halls, but we don'tfuck up ever.
So anyway, guys, we can go on and on and on.
It's fucking, fucking so tragic that this happened, that Katie Meyer basically felt likeshe had no recourse and she took her life.
(01:21:20):
Someone who clearly had
so much to fucking offer, you know?
And somebody who was like a really fucking, who was like a solid person.
Like I was watching her and I'm like, man, I would want her on my team.
I would want her, she would, you I'd want her like having my back because she fucking goesall out for her team and for people that she feels like that need, that don't feel like
(01:21:46):
they can speak for themselves.
Like she could have really fucking done something.
amazing.
She already was doing something amazing.
And so if anything good can come out of this, hope that there are people that when they'refaced with this anxious urge to take their own lives, that there's something in place,
(01:22:14):
that didn't exist for Katie, I hope it exists for others because of this.
Yeah, and you don't have to do it alone.
just no one does.
There's always someone who you can talk to and who can help.
And I just imagine how alone she felt and it just breaks my heart.
That is the most heartbreaking thing is just thinking about her just feeling absolutelyscared.
(01:22:37):
Oh, guys.
Yeah.
So.
Another upbeat episode.
Yeah, another upbeat episode.
Sorry, guys.
It's just important that we talk about this because, you know, after the Madison Hallerantragedy in 2014, and then we fast forward to 2022, and it's like, wow, nothing's really
(01:22:58):
changed.
You know, there's not anything in place for these these young people that are struggling.
And other things that haven't even reached the level of news that both of these tragediesreached.
But okay, thank you so much for listening guys.
Thanks for listening.
(01:23:20):
Please follow us on our socials at Secret Passage Podcast on Instagram or X at Secret PassPod.
You could also join our Patreon where we have different videos and other episodes,trapdoor episodes as we call them available.
(01:23:42):
And yeah, we will see you next week.
See you next week.
Thanks guys, bye.
uh
This podcast may contain discussions of graphic violence, unsettling themes, supernaturalphenomena, and other topics that some listeners may find disturbing or triggering.
Listener discretion is advised.
This podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The opinions expressed are simply those of the individual hosts and do not represent theprofession of psychology or constitute professional advice.
(00:39):
Welcome back to the Secret Passage podcast.
I am your host, Dana Vespoly, alongside my co-host,
Shannon Rogers, also known as Shanula, Shaniqua, Shanny Town, Shan Right.
That's right.
(01:04):
Well, this is part two, of, continuing from last week.
uh originally were planning on doing uh an episode on Madison Holleran and Katie Meyer astheir tragedies are kind of aligned in some ways, both pro athletes, not pro, but...
(01:28):
uh
all like star athletes, star students at Ivy League universities.
But before we get going on that, we want to give some shout outs.
yes.
Okay.
Shout outs to our new paid subscribers on Patreon.
So shout out to Lulia, Sergo, Joseph Garcia, Robert Pareco, Bill Schilling, and Connor andWiley.
(01:57):
I think we've already shouted you out, but we're shouting you out again.
And then we also want to give a shout out to the sweet person who wrote a very
nice five-star review for us on Apple podcasts.
And I can read the review.
Wait, yeah, Bob.
So it's Bob P416.
What he said was truly thought-provoking, a well-researched and thought-provoking listen.
(02:20):
Dana and Sharon, he got my name wrong, but that's okay.
Everybody does.
There's a joke in my house.
Yeah, Tim calls me Sharon Roberts.
em Dana and Sharon are not afraid to dig deep into uncomfortable subject matter that attimes,
can make you squirm and then just as quickly make you chuckle.
So thank you, Bob.
Thank you so much.
means a lot.
(02:41):
really does.
secret passages you wandered down this past week?
Shanaynay?
Yes.
Okay.
Let me tell you.
So, uh, when I wear these glasses, I always think of my little niece when she, she's socute.
When she was a little girl, she got those, you know, it's like, where's Waldo kind ofglasses.
She got some like glasses for Christmas.
(03:02):
They were not prescription or anything, but she did this little video and she saw it.
You wouldn't hurt a guy with glasses, would you?
You wouldn't hurt a guy with glasses, would you?
So cute.
Um, oh my God.
So have you, did you hear about the GameStop thing where, uh,
The two guys cut in line, those like new Pokemon cards that were being released.
Do you hear about this?
(03:23):
Okay, so in Colma, people were lining up because new Pokemon cards were available andthese two guys cut in line and this dude got really upset and they were like kind of
having words back and forth.
And then all of sudden they just broke out into a huge brawl and the guys like broke aglass jar full of weed over the guy's head.
This is so like.
(03:44):
Yeah, broke a glass jar of weed.
And then one guy took the shards from the glass and started stabbing the guy.
I know, over Pokemon.
So Tim and I were talking about lining up.
And I was like, yeah, dude, if you cut the line, you get a lot of rage.
I'm a big liner-upper.
I know that's a cultural thing.
(04:05):
I know there are cultures that don't queue up.
like,
in America, we queue up, I think, as like a residual kind of like British influence kindof thing, right?
And like, it's so ingrained in us.
And like, when we go to this, there's this brewery, Drake's uh dealers, Drake's notDrake's dealership, the actual brewery here in San Leandro, and they don't have you line
(04:26):
up for beer.
And it breaks everyone's brains.
Like everybody's standing there, like sort of lining up and someone will just walk up andorder a beer and they'll be like, what?
Like,
We just can't understand the concept of not lining up.
then so Tim and I just went down this rabbit hole of like, when I was a kid, I was gettingmad at little kids like in class when the teachers would say something like, time to line
up and people wouldn't line up.
(04:47):
And then we were talking about, what's like too much?
Like if you're waiting in line for tickets or you're waiting in line for lunch orsomething or brunch, like how many people can you save spaces for if you're saving spaces
before it's like rude and could incite violence?
And so I asked AI and I said, was like,
I think probably two.
So I asked AI and it's two.
(05:08):
If you go over two, then it's just like, right?
Yeah, it makes me really uncomfortable at the twins graduation.
We were sitting and there was another family that we recognized because their son isreally good friends with the twins.
And they were like, well, here, let's just save spots.
I had said, well, no, no, no, no.
(05:29):
If you guys are sitting there, that's okay.
We're still waiting for four more people.
Oh, no, no.
We'll save these spots.
I was like, eh.
I was feeling comfortable.
It's like, what about
It just doesn't seem fair, you know?
I'm very much, it goes back to grade school for me remembering like you line up and thenno cuts, no cuts.
(05:53):
You're taking cuts.
You're not supposed to cut.
Don't cut the line, you know?
would like-
How mad you get, like when we're driving or, God, think about this, because this is theother thing.
So you probably know this from In-N-Out, right?
Or anywhere else.
insane line that snakes around the block.
(06:14):
But what about the assholes that get up there?
You're waiting for like 45 minutes.
This is place here called Lovely's Burgers.
And it's inside of this brewery in Oakland.
And they're amazing burgers.
But usually when you're there, there's a line.
And it sometimes can take like 45 minutes.
And it never fails.
(06:36):
There's somebody who gets to the front of the line.
And then they get there.
And it's like they haven't even been thinking about their order.
And they're like, I don't know.
Should I do the regular burger patty or the impossible burger patty?
And you're like, ugh, like you've been waiting for 45 minutes.
How have you not thought of this?
So there you go.
That's my secret passage.
My secret passage is, it shouldn't be a secret, it really shouldn't.
(07:02):
We need more research, we need more information out there.
I am in the throes of perimenopause.
Holy shit.
No one warns you.
No, I went into a Reddit, ah this kind of support group Reddit thread about perimenopauseand menopause because there are days where I just, I don't understand what's happening.
(07:29):
Like the dizziness, like I'll have this dizziness, not enough dizziness that throws mybalance completely off, but like this kind of like,
this is weird, this going to go away?
Is this gonna get worse?
I was like, I can't drive today.
I don't feel comfortable driving.
This was yesterday.
So Jay had to do all the driving.
(07:51):
Cause I was just like, know, hot flashes, um it rage, weird itchiness.
I will get itchiness in my ears where I'm like, and I found out that's a fucking symptom.
I'm like, what the?
fuck is this itchiness?
Why is there a bug that crawled into my ear and died?
(08:12):
I don't understand.
It's like, ah, like.
And yeah, and it's like so unexpected for people who don't like jump scares.
Being in perimenopause is like being confronted by jump scares.
Like these weird sensations that pop up out of nowhere.
And yeah, there's not enough information.
(08:32):
There's not enough research done on it.
I was asked the other day, well, my partner, was like, how long does it last?
I'm like,
Doctors don't even have a fucking answer.
It can be 25 years.
It can be like 10.
Yeah, like some shit goes and so.
(08:54):
Oh, that's see that that's.
Well, I was in my 30s.
I didn't know what was going on.
was like, I'm a demon.
That's right.
Yeah, I was like, I'm a demon right now.
And I had no thought in my mind that it was menopause or anything.
I to my doctor, I was like, they don't tell you about like, this is probably TMI, but theydon't tell you about like all the changes in your private parts and like, you know, just
(09:18):
weird things that people start to experience.
I went in and she's like, so I told her, was like, I'm
I'm in menopause, I think, because my regular doctor tested me and was like, yeah, youhave no estrogen.
oh But she was like, so what's the goal here?
She's like, you want to keep it open for business?
I'm like, no one told me it closes for business.
(09:40):
No one told me anything about that.
Right?
Like some women, it just, yeah.
Yeah, there's a woman in the business um who, she was great.
about, just the way she communicated.
She was like, you know, there's so much shame in an industry that really fetishizes youth.
(10:03):
I mean, it's not just the adult industry.
It's all industries just really, really making youth the gold standard for like how womenshould strive to be young.
But she,
When she started going through it, she said, guys, this is fucking crazy.
Like she was having like pain in her vagina.
(10:24):
And it's like for a porn star, that's tough.
And she kind of just said, anyone that might be starting to go, come talk to me becauseI'm experiencing the worst of it.
you know, but I remember hearing about that and this was more than 10 years ago.
(10:45):
And I was like, oh, is that a thing?
Cause I didn't even know.
I thought, okay, so this thing happens and I'll just go talk to my doctor about it.
And he or she will fill me in on what to do and we'll be good.
And it's like, no, it's not how it works at all.
Like it's still so experimental, some of the shit, you know.
And there's not a lot of research, like you said, it's just not as an under.
(11:07):
Yeah.
I feel bad for people, our moms, our parents age, because I think they're really seeingthe effects of being estrogen deprived over the lifespan now.
And they're recognizing that we just didn't used to live this long and living withoutestrogen for that long, it affects all the systems in your body.
(11:31):
So anyway, and thank God for people like Mary Claire Haver, who are taking this up.
And I think our generation really is kind of the generation that's.
Right, acknowledging like, hey, we kind of need to have a conversation.
We need to talk about this.
like issues of, we talked about this with the Lindsay Clancy episode, uh postpartumissues.
(11:58):
just there's a lack of resources, lack of information for a lot of new mothers who, know,there's no way to tell how you're gonna respond after giving birth.
And then these women end up vilified.
You you end up being referred to as crazy, out of control, hysterical.
It's like, actually, there's, my body is on fire internally with that stuff.
(12:22):
But anyway, thanks gang for listening to, listening.
Yeah, I'm like, secret passage.
It shouldn't be a secret.
Exactly.
But Lea, let's go ahead and dive into our conversation on Katie Meyer and trigger warning.
(12:43):
Again, we are talking about some pretty uncomfortable stuff, death and suicide and mentalhealth.
So anyone that is uncomfortable, that just doesn't feel up to having this conversation orlistening to us, then you can move along.
It's okay.
I get it.
But yes, last week we were going to talk about Katie Meyer along with Madison Holleran,but Katie needs her own episode.
(13:13):
And this is a case, there's a legal case involved with this, a lawsuit that Katie Meyer'sparents have against Stanford University.
But before we get into that, let's talk about who Katie Meyer was and is still.
a lot of ways.
She is the reason why there's a law now that passed, Katie Meyer's law.
(13:39):
Yes, they passed a law that basically if you get caught in some sort of disciplinaryaction at your institution, at your school, that you can have an outside advocate help
you.
So navigate the process because she didn't have that.
So Katie Meyer was an extraordinary athlete from Stanford University.
(14:04):
She was a senior at Stanford University in 2022.
Excuse me, Bruno.
Bruno has a lot of opinions.
Okay, stay right there.
Yeah, she was a goalkeeper and the team captain for Stanford.
And she was also an extraordinary student and was applying to law school.
(14:26):
There's footage of her saves as goalkeeper.
She was like, there's this great documentary called, it's called Save the Katie MeyerStory, right?
On ESPN.
Wow, a tremendous, tremendous athlete, powerful, just, and so much sass.
I remember, I texted Geo's watching it and just like broken hearted watching this bit.
(14:49):
Like she was just like, she was such a badass.
Yeah, there's that part where she fucking someone from the opposing team got the ball inand then the player was like overheard saying like, well, it's the goalkeeper's fault or
whatever.
And then Katie, they end up winning the game because of Katie and Katie's just like goingup to the camera and she's like, she does the whole.
(15:14):
Yeah, shut your mouth.
So sassy.
But anyway, an incident happened.
Six months prior, so, because it took about six months for this whole thing to kind of godown.
uh Six months prior to her death, a young player on her team had uh a terrible experienceat a party.
(15:42):
This young player, young meaning she was 17, 17, so underage.
But a football, a Stanford football player had
forced himself on her in like...
think was like a stairway.
A stairwell, right, where no one could see and kissed her without her consent.
(16:03):
And he said, no one can see us here, which freaked her out.
Yeah.
And I can only imagine, you know, it's, very intimidating, very scary.
You don't know what to do.
No one, no one's there.
And she went to her team and she was very upset about it.
And Katie, Katie was understandably enraged on her behalf.
(16:29):
And so following that Katie came across this football player.
and she spilled hot coffee on him.
and
The player was the hot coffee like scalded him.
He went to the athletic trainer at the school and explained what happened because he was,I think it was like, hey, what do I do for this?
(16:58):
mean, it wasn't like he lost skin or anything like that.
was just, it was painful.
And then word got to the dean basically.
And the girl,
did not want to the young player that had been kissed by the football player didn't wantto press, didn't want to escalate things.
(17:21):
She didn't want to bring charges against him.
And the football player wanted to drop the whole thing.
Just didn't want to per, didn't want to get Katie in trouble.
Not, there's no way to know his reasoning why.
I think he just didn't want any attention on what had happened.
But.
Nevertheless, he didn't want things to escalate.
He just wanted things to end amicably.
(17:46):
However, the department of student condo.
I think so.
Yes, it was, I want to get the exact name down.
um Essentially the kind of governing body that oversees student conduct and studentbehavior wanted to move forward and investigate what had happened.
(18:18):
so Katie maintained that it was an accident.
insisted that it was unintentional.
And the department didn't believe her.
I think that there were witnesses and kind of words shared contradicting what Katie wassaying, saying like, oh no, she was pissed.
(18:43):
She did that.
She had her teammates back.
She was angry.
So the investigation took six months.
The department had six months to make a decision about whether they were going to moveforward.
And in the last possible minute of that six months, six month investigative process, theysent an email out at 7 p.m.
(19:15):
on that last possible day.
So you can imagine Katie thinking, whew, this is done.
Yeah, this is done.
I don't have to think about this anymore.
It's done.
She gets back to her dorm room and has received an email stating that they are movingforward with some sort of a hearing.
(19:38):
Yeah, they were going to have the process basically of having a hearing,
And it was, was, I think it was, and, and that the possible outcome for her would beexpulsion from the school.
Following that, that email, there was evidence that she frantically was searching all overthe web for how to represent herself, what to do.
(20:06):
She sent an email to the Dean saying, Hey, uh I, what,
I'm terrified, you know, what can I do?
But you know, she got an email back saying, do any of these particular dates and timeswork for having, you know, sitting down and having a meeting?
(20:30):
She chose a date, the soonest possible date.
She tried calling her ex-boyfriend who was a law student at the time to presumably gethelp with what to do, but he was not available.
He didn't get the call.
and then she took her life.
And I think that she just had written down on a note note thing, I'm scared, I'm scared.
(20:57):
So that is what happened.
2022, March 1st of 2022.
The thing that really stands out to me is how you see these uh videos of her playingsoccer and she is like, she seems so fearless.
(21:23):
Yeah.
Probably the hardest fucking position to play is goal.
most pressure.
The most amount of pressure, my oldest child was lacrosse goalie.
It was hell.
And obviously not at this level.
She's like at this elite fucking level uh for soccer.
(21:44):
And it's that thing, it's like the ball gets in, you're hated sometimes.
You catch the ball, you're just, the pressure is so insane.
And she's just, she's the team captain.
She is this force to be reckoned with, like in the camera.
just like, you know, she's like, what?
You know, just so tough.
(22:05):
And the captain, so she is rallying her players.
And then she was described by her mother as being like this like mama bear.
Like she wants to take care of people.
And her parents had instilled in her from a very early age, you have to take care ofpeople that can't take care of themselves.
You have to be a voice for those who don't have a voice.
(22:29):
And I think that she of course dumped the coffee on the football player on purpose becausewho's gonna fucking stick up for the 17 year old?
The school's not gonna fucking stick up for her.
No one's fucking sticking up for this girl.
So Katie's gonna fucking do it.
mean, it's also, it's just crazy that she would, the football player would say that hedoesn't want to move forward with anything, but they would anyway.
(22:56):
And then, and the other part though, that, the same thing happened on the other side wherehe did something weird without consent.
And she said she didn't want to press charges or whatever, but they, and they didn't.
like they could have, it's just not fair.
(23:16):
It doesn't seem fair that they would go.
So the argument I heard for them pursuing something with Katie and not the football playeris that there were no witnesses with the girl and the football player.
I think there were witnesses that saw Katie.
(23:37):
How about the girl he did it to?
She's a witness.
I know what you mean.
It's hard to.
it's hard to prove.
And then also, I think for the girl, for the 17 year old, it's just, this is where it,another example of sometimes victims don't move forward because it's like being assaulted
(24:03):
all over again.
You've got people trying to dig shit up about your past.
You've got,
You know, we've seen so many instances of victims just being, it's like an assault, acontinuous assault that just keeps happening and happening.
And it's hard because he's, someone made this point and it absolutely makes sense.
(24:24):
Like football and basketball at colleges, you're a god, you're a god basically.
Shit gets pushed under the rug time and time again.
Drunk drag racing, we're gonna...
not say anything about it.
What's that?
You're acting out and trashing a hotel room?
Shh.
No.
(24:44):
Yeah.
player, a basketball player.
So I wonder though, I wonder if he just tried to kiss her.
I mean, we're Generation X.
Like if I was at a party and somebody tried to kiss me and I didn't want them to, I wouldnot consider that an assault.
I would just be like, oh, this guy wanted to kiss me and blah, blah, Do we know if shereally actually felt super violated or if she was just going to her teammates and being
like, oh my god.
(25:05):
I mean, did she actually really feel like he was violating her?
Yeah, get, well, we'll never know.
Yeah.
it might be that she's like, I just was freaked out and I didn't like him.
You know, I didn't, I just didn't want that, but I don't want to press charges because Ijust, I don't want that heat.
You know, I don't want the whole football team hating me and all of that.
(25:29):
So, I who knows, but either way, I think Katie was just like, you know, another, you know,punk ass piece of shit, you know, picking on.
a girl that's like under fucking age, by the way.
all that to say that the reasons for moving forward with Kitty may have been, I mean,again, even if there were witnesses, who fucking cares?
(25:54):
Who fucking cares?
It was like a sunburn.
That's what, that's what.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It wasn't like she dumped hot scalding coffee.
And his skin like sloughed off.
like the guy in Indiana Jones.
Yeah.
And so, and again, yeah, no one wanted to move forward with this.
(26:18):
The football players like.
he seems cool, honestly, right?
He seemed like he was like, I don't care.
Like, no.
But also, couldn't he have stood up and said more?
Like, if it was me and I found out they were moving forward with stuff against someone Isaid not to.
Who knows though if he even knew?
There's so much we don't know about this, but I think plain and simple, the footballplayer and the other soccer player just wanted to just move on.
(26:48):
And I'm sure Katie just wanted to move on too.
And these guys were just too big for their britches, this department.
Stanford's Office of Community Standards took it upon themselves.
to move forward with disciplinary action against Katie Taylor despite the fact that no onewanted any of it.
(27:13):
The people involved in, for lack of a better word, the case, know, the young soccerteammate who was kissed against her will by the football player and the football player
himself, neither of them wanted to move forward with anything.
the football player just wanted to drop it.
(27:34):
And the Department of Community Standards just insisted on moving forward, which justreally feels like kind of throwing your weight around.
And the woman involved, looking at her social media, she was about that life.
She was really into like, she had a post, I think she had like an Instagram post, likeshe's wiped a lot of her stuff.
(28:01):
But the person in charge was like, I she posted something that was like, I got my mind onmy money and my money on my mind or whatever.
like she's
was drinking champagne.
She has champagne, right?
And she was starting a career as a counselor and charging people thousands of dollars todo their admissions.
(28:22):
Right, to help them.
Right.
I think it was like starting out, starting at like $4,000 or something to help them.
Yeah.
Which is just, which is just so gross.
It's so gross.
Do want me to tell you my perspective as someone who worked in higher education from 2003to 2012?
(28:42):
Yeah.
So when I was trying to figure out, know Ginger's trying to get in my lap.
em So I'm not even trying to hide the fact that I'm wearing leggings, by the way.
em It's all about the comfort today, folks.
Look, I got these.
(29:04):
I was like, am I going to wear a bra or not?
I did.
So I worked in higher education in a very high stress job that I used to call cancer jobfor when I was a student.
And then when I graduated, tried to become a therapist.
And then I thought, my God, maybe I'm not going to do that.
And I took six years off.
this whole time I'm working in higher education, both as a financial aid counselor andthen like the assistant director of the financial aid department at a private school,
(29:29):
which is different kind of student.
Then from like Stanford, Stanford, have a lot of traditional students.
So they come, they're very young and they're just, they're still cooking.
Like their brains are not fully formed.
The prefrontal cortex, which is in charge of executive functioning is very young.
doesn't like form until they're 25.
So there, we had adults, most, a lot of adults and people who were working and stuff atthat school.
(29:53):
But when I worked at UC Berkeley, we had a lot of people who were like 18, 19, verydifferent kind of engagement with the system.
But you know, when you work in higher education, you tend to not make a ton of money.
And you also are like, you have a lot of exposure to a lot of young students who don'thave never interacted with these kinds of systems before.
(30:18):
And there's a lot of anxiety often.
And there's a lot of uh
confusion or sometimes there's a lot of entitlement certain generations there's more andthen certain generations are just note like get shit done in a different way than other
generations and I saw it as I was working but there's sometimes there can develop thissense of I don't know what it is resentment or irritation or judgment toward the students
(30:42):
you know and their behavior there can also be I've seen people get high on their kind ofpower that they have especially when they're in those roles where they get to
decide someone's fate.
Maybe in their life they don't have that kind of power and they like this power a lot.
And so they use it, you know, in a way.
so just, having, I know I have a counseling background and that has totally shaped my mindin a different direction.
(31:07):
And sometimes I can't even remember what it's like to be like a civilian, but I would saythat in colleges, there is an awareness, especially at colleges like UC Berkeley, where I
worked, or Stanford, there's an awareness of
kind of the psychological stuff that people come in with being high achievers.
And there's an awareness of student mental health, especially in 2022 when she was, youbut there, but that office to me, I don't know how they were operating in the capacity
(31:39):
that they were operating in without a little bit more padding in terms of like what we'reputting the student through is actually extremely.
painful and could set off a crisis for someone.
Especially if we drag it on for six months and all this uncertainty.
First of all, she's like a star athlete.
(32:00):
She has a following on Instagram.
She's super out there with her personality.
She's a polarizing figure in that she expresses her emotions.
And whenever you do that, you have half the world hating you because they're the otherteam's supporters.
And you have half the world loving you because you're right?
And so she's in, you know, I listened to this wonderful interview with her parents.
(32:20):
And I'll link to it in the show notes, but they were saying, you know, that she's a socialmedia, she rode the wave of like Instagram when it first came out and that she appeared to
be very robust and like she could take a lot and like she had a thick skin, but that itreally does impact these high achieving high caliber athletes to have, you know, their
(32:44):
lives be so public and to have instant feedback from people, whether it's, especially whenit's hate.
And I can imagine her sitting there.
The fact, I'm just, as a person who's worked in higher education, I'm stunned by theirlack of, that they couldn't predict that something like this would happen if they treated
her the way they treated her and didn't offer her some kind of uh help in terms of likemental health support.
(33:11):
It's just shocking to me because she stood to lose not only like potential sponsorships inthe future, her
All her fans, her, right?
And her future, this future she had been working toward and was, you know, so like theamount of pressure they were putting on, ah, she was 18?
Was she 18?
No, was 22.
(33:32):
She was about to graduate.
So still not fully formed.
so the one thing that her parents talked about in this interview, which I thought was soimportant and also speaking from someone who's worked in higher education, it's like they
were talking about how shocking it was for them because she had talked to them abouteverything, right?
And that she didn't bring this to them.
(33:52):
But they also thought she's not a person who would ever kill herself.
And they sort of see it as it was a crisis.
brought on by this.
There was no history of anxiety or depression, nothing that they thought could lead tothis.
That's what their mom said.
But she was on medication.
for ADHD, right?
Yes.
(34:13):
Yeah.
So no history of like major depressive disorder.
It could be that it was a mistake that came up, that she did have major depressivedisorder.
That was probably a mistake, but it was ADHD that she had.
Yeah.
So her mom said that she had none of the mental.
I mean, with ADHD, there is a heightened risk around suicide, but it's like 5 % orsomething.
(34:35):
it's of things.
Yeah.
mean, think a little bit of a lot of things, like maybe having, there's so much in termsof the environment when you grow up with ADHD before you get diagnosed and all the stuff
you kind of internalize about how come it's so easy for everyone else and not for me, Imust be dumb or other things like, impulsivity, but also like,
(34:57):
rejection sensitivity or stuff around, I don't know, emotion regulation.
I wrote down a little bit about that because I looked it up.
basically, like the parents were saying, and I agree, that there's an issue around sendingpeople to school when they're 18, 19, 20, 21, until your brain's not really fully formed
(35:19):
in the prefrontal cortex area until like 25.
But you're sending these kids off to school.
They want to be adults.
They want to be adulting.
But you have absolutely no legal right to their, there's FERPA and then there's HIPAA.
So you don't have any legal right to their education information about what's going on.
And you don't have any legal right to their mental health records.
(35:40):
And you, they have to sign a release.
Your kid has to be willing to sign a release for you to ever have access to any of thosethings.
And to me, that's the biggest question in this whole case is like, how do you navigatehaving a kid who's not actually fully baked?
going into school and facing stuff like this by themselves and you may or may not be ableto know unless they tell you.
(36:02):
I mean, guess the answer is like talk to your kid, but they were talking to her.
Right.
And this never came up for six months.
She was holding on to this.
Yeah.
This this bizarre, like disciplinary action, this thing like held over her head for sixwhole months, keeping it to herself.
(36:24):
Ugh.
Worried.
Like scared.
scared, also simultaneously waiting for an answer back from Stanford Law School becauseshe was waiting to hear.
It just seems punitive, like unnecessary.
does.
And the language in the email where there was nothing in it that gave her any fuckinggrace at all.
Like, hey, this is, don't worry.
(36:46):
This is standard.
When we get reports, blah, blah, we'll be due the research.
There's just some stuff to indicate it wasn't an accident.
If you need to talk to someone, call this fucking number.
Nothing.
was just out the gate.
It was aggressive.
The language was aggressive and folks, can look, it's a long fucking email.
(37:11):
But essentially making it very clear in the email that the consequences of her being foundguilty essentially was losing, uh was not being able to graduate, losing her degree, all
the fucking hard work that she had put in all the way up to that point.
oh
unbelievable to me that they could deny her degree.
(37:32):
of any behavioral issues.
She never fucking did anything wrong.
uh Stellar student, stellar uh role model.
I mean, she was a great face for Stanford University for women's soccer.
She was like the face of it and well liked by everyone.
No issues in her classes, no issues in the dorms, no issues.
(37:56):
This one thing, this one fucking thing.
that no one involved wanted anything to do with.
Even the fucking football player didn't want to touch it, didn't want anything to do withit.
And they could have let this go.
They could have, but it's that thing of just fucking high on our own fucking supply.
(38:17):
I just know.
Right, that's her name.
I just want to make sure.
Ali, it's something, you know, let's get the right name before we slam her.
Sorry guys, I get so so heated
It's terrible.
I mean, think about this.
I don't know.
It just seems like I can imagine her pushing that key, like the send button, with likesadistically.
(38:38):
Like, you know, I've seen people in the education field harbor toward students, which is,I I know it comes from their own burnout and, you know, maybe their own like negative
experiences over time with students.
it's really, that's I wondered when I first heard this.
was like, ugh.
Like what did she have against her?
(39:01):
Yeah, and apparently uh she was the lead dean responsible for preventing student suicides.
hi!
I think he got some work to do there.
And prior to Katie, there had been like four other suicides before hers.
(39:24):
Not in the month or even, I mean, was like inside of two years.
That's a lot.
I would think you'd be on high alert.
Yeah, every school I worked at, I was a therapist at CSU East Bay, and that was a lot ofwhat we talked about.
The only thing I can think of, well, no, she was supposed to be the person in charge ofsuicide.
(39:44):
One thing I will say is that I think it's terrible in terms of our training asprofessionals, and she wasn't even a therapist, but like all training in any position,
that we never really talked.
We got six hour, it's like there's a six hour class requirement for suicide prevention andsuicide treatment to get your degree, least my degree as a master's.
(40:08):
I'm just thinking like it doesn't take someone who's like super, super empathic torecognize the pressure you're putting on someone when you do that to them.
It's shocking to me that they just let it roll on like they did.
I don't know if.
if she had shown more symptoms, if she had showed up to counseling and said, I'm feelingsuicidal, I can't handle this.
(40:37):
But then the therapist wouldn't be able to tell the administrator unless she signed arelease.
So there's all this stuff where this stuff gets bound up.
And I know why.
You've got to protect people.
If she was an imminent threat to herself, if she told them she was going to commitsuicide, she had the means, she had a plan,
they could call her parents or they could call this, you they could say to try to preventit.
(41:00):
But anything short of that, like she did show up, right?
And say that she was having suicidal ideation.
Oh, that was Madison.
was.
Okay.
So.
Yeah, is uh the difference.
I mean, there's many differences between Madison and Katie, but with Madison, she had beenhaving for uh at least for an entire semester uh had been uh dealing with these uh with
(41:31):
suicidal ideation, anxiety and depression and was trying to get help.
that the
The signs were there and she was asking for help.
With Katie, it sounds like there was nothing happening that was indicating that she washaving any sort of a mental health crisis until this.
(41:58):
What's so trippy is she started her, her parents talked to her by FaceTime the nightbefore and they said there were no clues.
She was buying tickets to, like her mom was buying her tickets for spring break.
She was buying tickets to another trip with her friends.
She was making future plans.
I just imagine a rubber band, like stretch, stretch, stretch.
I imagine myself like hitting refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh.
(42:19):
When's that letter coming?
And thinking, oh my God, they're going to let me off maybe.
Like maybe there'll be some relief.
I'll get one today.
She's like boom.
by the fact that it was probably 6 p.m.
You know, she's talking to her parents, like everything's good.
I'm not sure what time she spoke to them, but she gets that email at fucking seven andeverything that she was dreaming about and hoping for.
(42:44):
You know, one of the things that her mom made a point of saying in this ESPN documentarywas that Stanford was her home.
Like that was her home.
and she loved it there and she was thriving, you know?
But I can't imagine how just bizarre, like you've got this one minute and everything isokay and then your daughter is gone.
(43:17):
Ugh.
And then her mother also said that this is just a thing where, know, Katie didn't want toburden her parents.
You know, it's like that six months, that whole thing.
And I had the thought, that the fear and the anxiety too with Katie is knowing that sheprobably did do it on purpose.
(43:38):
You know, the coffee, that wasn't an accident.
And I'm not faulting her because I would fucking be lying too.
You know, if this, you know.
I wasn't there, all that kind of stuff.
But when you know that this is a department that takes student conduct very seriously andyou essentially assault a fellow student, you're automatically in the wrong.
(44:04):
And it was an impulsive act.
She did it honestly with good intentions.
just, no one's sticking up for this young girl on her team.
She's gonna stick up for her.
She's the team captain.
She's gonna take care of her.
because she can't take care of herself.
Like she's being that mama bear that her parents raised her to be, which is I'm gonnastick up for this player, fuck this guy.
(44:27):
I can imagine it.
It's like, you're gonna force yourself on a girl?
I'm gonna force myself on you with this fucking hot cup of coffee.
And it was an impulsive act, indicative of somebody probably with ADHD, like just likeimpulsive action, not thinking things through real quick, just in the moment, just having
that heated reaction.
And knowing maybe like, shit, I'm not gonna be able to, you know, cause my thought was,why doesn't she just go through with the hearing and then see what happens.
(44:56):
But if she knew she was in the wrong and if there were witnesses saying, no, she did it onpurpose, then she's humiliated in this everything.
And her parents, you know, having her back all the way through college, she has thispressure to be that perfect.
(45:16):
amazing star athlete student, everything goes out the window.
Her sense of self goes out the window.
Her identity as being this star Stanford soccer player goes out the window.
so she loses everything.
And to draw a parallel in a way between Penn University of Pennsylvania and Stanford isyou've got these two Ivy League institutions.
(45:41):
People put Ivy League institutions on such a high pedestal.
but there's so much pressure associated with these schools.
And you see this pressure with Madison, just striving so hard for perfection whenperfection is just, it's unattainable.
And a lot of people already thought she was perfect, right?
(46:03):
Even with her 3.5 GPA, which is still like, that's still like, honor roll.
It's also just like, what strikes me about the whole thing is it's so unforgiving.
Can't there just be a way back from that?
Can't there just be a learning from a mistake and some kind of way she could make it up?
(46:27):
know, like- Talking about Katie?
Yeah.
Why does it have to, why does her life have to be ruined because of like, it's just,there's something so like-
Just harsh about it.
Is there no like kind of um measuring stick here?
Like, okay, attack a professor for a bad grade, right?
(46:50):
Versus a disagreement where a perfectly capable grown ass fucking big ass football playercan handle a hot fucking cup of coffee.
She spilled on him.
Did she spill the whole thing on him?
Idea.
Like, I'm not advocating.
He's alive.
Yeah, I'm sure he didn't lose practice time.
He didn't even want to deal with it.
(47:12):
He's like, whatever.
I don't want to fucking.
uh
I just I am pissed off at the freaking person that he told No the trainer it's like
it might be standard.
You know what I mean?
It might be a standard thing that happens.
Like, I'm not sure how it got to them, but the point is they heard it.
(47:35):
And it's like, you really want to, you really want to go forward with this?
Of all the fucking things.
That's the thing, I swear to God, I'm so glad I'm Generation X.
This shit just did not happen.
mean, we were raised by wolves in institutions too.
I told you about how I got pants once with my MZ Hammer pants on.
(47:56):
So this is, the boys got away with a lot of stuff in high school, but yeah, I had Hammerpants on and people would wear those pants with elastic waistbands.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, well, these didn't.
These were just rayon pants with like, think, not sexy at all.
And they're like pajamas.
(48:16):
And so this guy comes up and he pants me.
And so I go to class.
I'm like, I got to go to the office because uh this guy pants me.
And my teacher looked at me.
she was like, this is a teacher.
She looked at me.
And she was like, well, I mean, don't you think you were asking for it with those pants?
I'm all, I'm like, these pants?
(48:38):
Pretty sure they wear these underneath burkas.
Like not sexy, not a mini skirt.
But even if it was a mini skirt, would I have deserved to gotten pants?
No.
But yeah, it's like that back.
mean, seriously, that would not even register on anyone's radar if that happened duringour college years, right?
You just be like, this person, yeah, got pissed off and people would laugh about it maybe.
(49:01):
They wouldn't go to the trainer and be like, And the trainer wouldn't run it up the lineto the dean.
I'm pretty sure.
Which it also makes me think, like, it also makes me think, was there a bias against herbecause she was badass and kind of...
Well that's what I was wondering ah because I hate saying this but it's like just puttingit out there.
(49:28):
So that Dean did not have a prestigious academic background.
Let's put it that way.
That Dean basically got her degree or certification from a school with like a 95 %acceptance rate, right?
Definitely not a Stanford type school.
(49:49):
And this isn't me being judgy and snooty about where people go to school, but.
I think it mattered to this dean that she was now dean of Stanford.
and she has some power.
Yeah.
And so I did wonder, it's like, here's Katie.
She's beautiful, beautiful girl, incredible athlete, and just like a golden girl in a lotof ways.
(50:12):
I keep repeating it, but like it's a big deal.
She was captain of a really fucking great team, a recognized goalie, goalkeeper,outstanding goalkeeper, and a stellar student to the point where she
applied to Stanford Law School.
don't apply to Stanford for law school if you don't think there's a good chance or adecent chance you'll get in.
(50:37):
is amazing.
honestly, I'm so angry that she is dead.
This is so unnecessary.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, she's from Newberry Park, which is like neighbors to me, like Newberry Park HighSchool, which uh my oldest son wrestled there.
Not, he wasn't a student there, but there was uh some tournaments there.
(51:00):
OK, so here's my question.
Check this out.
So this happens in institutions.
They don't always talk to each other, the different parts.
in smaller, like a JFK, we just walk down the hall, like, oh, this person's havingtrouble.
If they don't get this, whatever, they're not going to get their financial aid.
(51:21):
And then we could intervene.
I'm so shocked.
I mean, I don't know if this happened, and maybe they just weren't very effective.
But if you have an athlete that's going through something like this, that departmentshould be communicating with her coaches.
And the coaches play a huge role in these players' mental health and their mind.
(51:42):
is such a good point.
Like that is such a good point.
Yeah.
And also, I'll go a step further.
ah Well, I don't know if this would be applicable because technically Katie was a legaladult.
I was going to say also letting the parents fucking know.
That's my question.
So that's my thing about the FERPA and the HIPAA thing.
(52:03):
If your kid goes to school, if I was a parent, I would ask them if they would feelcomfortable with having a release signed, at least while they're 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.
Their brains are, I remember when I turned 24, I was like, whoa, I feel way smarter than Iever felt before.
I could feel my brain, my prefrontal cortex forming and taking shape.
(52:27):
And the thing with brain development, and they talk about this a lot in the podcast too,and it's a really good point, is that the middle brain is developed, but that's like the
emotional brain.
That's the brain that is impulsive.
And you don't have the prefrontal cortex to check that yet, fully formed.
So you have these kids running around with all these stresses, all the stresses of thelife changed of becoming uh a college student and an athlete in her case, and their
(52:54):
parents can't do
hear anything from anyone unless the kid tells them.
And so I think at least somebody should have encouraged her.
Like, listen, talk to your parents.
Get them involved.
I know you probably don't want to because you feel ashamed.
There's so many things that could have happened to help her with this.
(53:16):
Even if she didn't outwardly seem upset by it, like do the math.
Like, of course she's upset by it.
Like, her whole life is hanging in the balance here.
Um, so it just, it's just shocking the failures at all different levels to me.
Also, here's another thing just to go along with what you're saying as far asopportunities to give her some sort of help reassurance something.
(53:47):
And that is in that when she responded to that email saying, essentially disclosing like,I'm freaked out.
She's like, I'm just.
I'm distraught.
There was an opportunity there for the person, cause she got a response back right away,you saying, well you can do any of these times work of saying, do you need to talk to
(54:13):
someone?
Hey, I hear you're distraught.
I hear that.
I understand.
Please don't worry too much.
suicide check?
Like are you having suicidal ideation?
Have you talked to your parents?
Anything?
Yeah.
Something that like started a dialogue with her.
And I maintain that when you work in that department, when you're essentially in chargeof, I mean, really the wellbeing of students, mean, students that are maybe on the
(54:45):
receiving end of being whatever, when there's the threat of, when there's the threat ofexpulsion, I think you forfeit your right to be like, office hours are closed, you know.
Don't send the fucking email at 7 p.m.
then.
If you're not gonna be available to help a student.
Yep.
(55:06):
And play dumb about the high stakes of being a Stanford University student and what thatentails.
It's ridiculous.
I was thinking, I think I brought this up to you.
I mentioned it.
It's like, you you look at, there's a reason why when you...
get tested for something like cancer.
(55:29):
They don't just send you an uh email or a notice saying, you, yeah, you have cancer.
have, tested positive for HIV.
It's eight o'clock at night and there's nothing you can, there's a reason why they don'tgive you potentially bad news.
And I say potentially because people can live with HIV now, right?
(55:52):
You can survive it.
There are people that beat cancer, but it's terrifying to hear that your life can be overpotentially, and they don't do that.
So you don't fucking send an email saying, hey, guess what?
Everything you worked your ass off for and you're like set to graduate in two months, thatmight not happen.
(56:13):
So sorry.
You don't fucking do that.
some callous fucked up English fingershit.
you've got these four other students not long prior who killed themselves.
Madison Holleran.
Madison Holleran killed herself.
Like, this is a thing that happens.
I mean, that's the thing I'm talking about.
(56:34):
Is there some kind of fatigue people get?
And they get compassion fatigue or?
It's true.
It happens.
You do lose.
I lost a lot of my empathy a lot of times with students.
they used to drive me crazy.
um But not all of them.
But I had like 10,000, 15,000 students I was working with at Cal.
(56:57):
But I also was working with the student athlete population who got
They got special services, and they got special treatment, and it's for good reason,right?
It's a very important part of the school.
So that's my other thing.
I'm like, OK, so you have somebody who's like a star student athlete.
Didn't they win the championships that year?
Yeah.
So you have this star student athlete.
(57:21):
Don't you think you would wake up to other pressures, like we can't lose this one?
Or not to say that everyone isn't important, because everyone is important, but you
especially someone who's so high profile, like just, I'm just, I feel like it just feelslike a personal vendetta to me.
feels like.
(57:42):
It really does.
uh Or just absolute, just stupid negligence because Lisa Caldera also was in charge ofalcohol on campus or something about like drinking, students and drinking.
under her watch, something like an insane number of students were admitted to theemergency room with alcohol related.
(58:06):
So I'm like, yeah, clearly she's not doing great at her job.
Like clearly that there's a problem there.
But again, I know we kind of went off on this, but it should be said that Katie's parentshave sued Stanford University for wrongful death.
(58:27):
And I think there's a very good chance that they will.
I mean, really they had a responsibility.
especially given what the Dean was tasked with to act in Katie's best interest, regardlessof like, let's say that it's like, well, she did this thing on purpose, we think, but we
(58:50):
also have a responsibility to be mindful about the way that we share this information andlet her know what her fucking rights are, right?
She had to go Googling around, like, what do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
Yeah, right.
And that's what her parents are that legislation's kind of about, I think, having someoneoutside.
Well, the system circles the wagons and tries to protect the system, which Stanford istrying to do now.
(59:17):
So you're in that system.
So they're saying, yeah, get somebody from outside who can help you look at this and helpyou deal with this.
I want to read the legislation.
I haven't read it.
But I think it's mandatory, which I think is important because very
If, because that's the thing, if they had mandated that she talk to someone like herparents or I don't know, a coach, something, someone could have pushed a little bit to
(59:41):
say, you know, this isn't good for you to be handling this on your own.
We want to support you.
We'll, we, we back you all the way.
We'll be your witnesses, you know, whatever.
Like also a little more context, please, about the different.
kinds of punishments.
I think you have just said this, but yeah, the different types of punishments.
It was like a blanket, like this blanket thing put over her.
(01:00:04):
It's like, you're going to be expelled for that?
Right.
It's like, yeah, there was no like, we have to look at it and evaluate it.
And then there might be a way back from, there might be something that you can do, likepick up garbage on the side of the road.
I'm just going to put like something like that where it's like.
Like, you're gonna kick this person out of your fucking school.
(01:00:25):
It just shows you how Stanford is so high on its own supply.
is it really, just, yeah.
Like, ew, like, OK, fine, like, yuck.
You know?
Like, it's so yucky that that whole, we've got a code of code.
OK, sure, totally.
But I would love to see other actions that were taken.
(01:00:46):
I'm sure they're looking at this for the case.
But like, if there were other actions that they ignored that were on the same sort of onpar with hers, like, and how what happened and like what if in other cases, who have they
expelled and who have they not?
And what, you know, I mean, like what is their criteria for deciding and how often do theyactually expel people?
(01:01:10):
And what would be even worse is that if they never really did, if they kind of had thesehearings and that they didn't really have a high rate of doing this and she stood a good
chance of making it, but no one could talk to her or give her that context.
which an advocate would have been able to do.
Like what her parents are trying, what this law that passed is, yeah, you call the personup here, let me let you know what your actual rights are here.
(01:01:35):
Don't even fucking worry about it.
This is, like that would go so far.
That could have saved her life, basically, if there was somebody that she could havecalled.
or a higher thing you could appeal to.
Like honestly, I would sue the shit out of a school that tried to like, especially afterall the money she spent to go to school there, if they would have just denied She got a
(01:01:58):
full right.
uh
She got a full ride, which is like, yeah, I was wondering, because I was doing someresearch about like, what was at stake?
Because I thought if, you know, her parents essentially, if there was like, her parentstook out loans or had not taken out loans, but had given up a lot for her to go to school
there.
she got, I mean, it's a testament to what an absolute, absolutely incredible studentathlete she was.
(01:02:24):
She got a full ride there, but you know, she's...
She was essentially an ambassador for the school in a lot of ways, but I can't, can't.
ah So it makes me so angry.
It makes me so angry because I'm like, essentially she was fucking bullied.
(01:02:44):
I'm sorry.
And how about this?
I thought about this too.
It's like, okay, so technically the young soccer player didn't want to push, pursuecharges against this football player.
the football player didn't wanna pursue charges against Katie.
They wanted to go ahead and punish Katie or quote unquote investigate, cause maybe therewere witnesses that saw her dump the coffee on him.
(01:03:13):
I would say that the young soccer player, let me put it this way, of course there wouldn'tbe fucking witnesses to the football player forcing himself on the soccer player.
course there wouldn't be.
uh Of course he's gonna take her to a uh dark deserted area to force himself on her.
(01:03:34):
Mm.
I need to read more about that.
didn't know that was the case.
But yeah.
mean, right, he's going to make the decision to do that without witnesses.
Exactly, exactly.
So like what is the bigger problem here?
Him molesting an underage girl, because she was only 17.
(01:04:00):
What's the bigger issue?
Didn't you guys have a problem with, I don't know, fucking Brock Turner?
You know what I'm saying?
Like remember that kind of stain on your institution, that guy?
Remember when that fucking happened?
And I know that this wasn't a rape and I know that these witnesses came and pulled him offof her or like yelled at him and all that.
(01:04:23):
You can see it happening.
But it's just, it's, you could make the argument that the witnesses were the people shetold right after that this happened.
You know what I mean?
The 17 year old.
But like, what's more egregious?
I know.
You know, and it's especially when it's a standard practice that a lot of times victims ofsexual assault don't want to pursue it because they're afraid.
(01:04:50):
They're afraid of what the repercussions are.
All this to say, I know this is all speculation on that.
I wasn't there.
I don't know.
But it's just, it's interesting that they choose to pick on the girl that was trying tostick up for a young victim.
Mm.
and potentially destroy her life and bully her.
(01:05:13):
They bullied her.
So, cause it's a thing it's like, well actually nothing was gonna happen.
That's a scare tactic we do.
We wanna just terrorize the person being investigated.
And then we, know, nine times out of 10, we don't move forward.
We just wanna, we just wanna like throw our weight around and really scare her and showher who's boss.
You know, I don't know.
It's just like.
(01:05:36):
Part of me is like, OK, so what can we learn from this going forward?
Hopefully they have learned something from this and will.
I mean, what they're asserting is that Katie killed herself because of her parents.
That's their position.
oh
she wrote that essay about my parents are controlling or whatever.
(01:05:58):
That's so interesting.
It doesn't every kid at that age go through that phase of like, my parents, they're justso controlling, right?
And it's also a case of sometimes it's like, the sake of getting that A, you're gonna be alittle hyperbolic, you know?
It could be that that was just a method Katie was using.
Maybe she was embarrassed about the fact that she had like perfect parents, whichhonestly, her family did seem pretty fucking awesome, right?
(01:06:26):
Just like Madison's parents.
was like, I wish they were my parents.
Fucking Katie's parents are dope.
I mean, she had her dad on, like her dad.
Like.
podcast episode.
She brought her father on.
What does that tell you?
I love I love my fucking dad, you know, it's so
It's a par for the course for that age to just sort of be pushing away from your parents,right?
(01:06:49):
And kind of like with aggression sometimes, you know?
And it's like the cool, it's like the way, it's what college kids do.
Like, my parents, they're so, but clearly they had a good solid relationship with her andah that's so sad.
Stanford's trying to throw them under the bus, huh?
Well, they're saying, hey, look, we know it's tragic and that sucks and everything.
(01:07:10):
But, you know, she did write this paper on how it was hard measuring up or whatever.
And it could be that she did have a hard time because she wanted to be perfect for herparents.
I mean, she didn't want to burden them with this six month nightmare investigation thatwas going on.
You know, she kept that to herself.
Yeah, sometimes people, there's something like, oh, I see it all the time.
(01:07:34):
Well, in myself, there are certain things, in other people, in my work, I see there's justsomething about certain things that people will not tell.
And it takes them a long time to warm up to sharing.
And a lot of the time it has to do with just feeling shame, you know?
Like I feel ashamed of that.
And it's interesting, this is subtle, but like in the interview I heard with her mom,
(01:07:59):
and her dad, her mom was saying, you know, yeah, she was really out there with her socialmedia.
They were talking about social media and how if you ask all the coaches, like what's trulydifferent between like when they were growing up and when these kids, kids are growing up
that are impacting their mental health, they all say social media.
And she said, just talking about how she was out there and she's like, and she would putstuff out there and she was like, brave, know, stuff would come back and people would have
(01:08:23):
things to say and they weren't always nice.
And she's like, I would say to her, oh, just dial it back.
Can you take that off?" Just kind of coaching her around that.
in that, kind of could hear that maybe Katie would be easy to internalize a message ofbeing, especially with her out there personality as a woman, be really easy to internalize
(01:08:48):
a message of being too much.
And so like when the coffee spill thing, coffee throwing, that was an instance of...
too much and like maybe this is total speculation on my part, but you know, just feelinglike that is one thing I cannot, I feel so ashamed and guilty because I did that.
Like I can't even get the words out of my mouth to tell my parents, right?
(01:09:11):
Cause it's just too painful to, it's too painful.
Right.
uh Yeah.
That's why I wish someone would have been working on her, you know, like at least one ofher coaches or, know,
to soften it a little bit because shame just sort of festers in silence, right?
You just sort of sit there feeling ashamed and it takes actual work like humor, likesharing it with other people, time passing, knowing you're not alone, knowing that people
(01:09:41):
still love you.
And no one had the opportunity unless they were doing the work to see, unless they werenotified she was in this process and they were, you know what I mean?
But I don't know if she let on that she was
Because you see the podcast that she did, and that was right before she ended her life.
m
(01:10:01):
was very upbeat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's the thing too.
And also being a team captain is she's got to, if she's scared, she's not going to let on.
If she's dealing with shit, she's not going to let on because she has to be strong.
She has to be powerful.
And that is, is, you know, two.
(01:10:24):
kind of add to what you're saying about like the social media piece, because we see thatwith Madison Holler and to in last week's episode is this, this uh sense of the, the face
that we put forward of strength, of happiness, of joy, of, you know, success and, what,what we're masking inside.
(01:10:47):
for, for Madison, I mean, she was trying to get privately, she was trying to get help.
privately meaning like her parents knew.
She was trying to get help because she was dealing with actual like a mental healthcrisis.
Katie's came on so quick.
mean, it is like when you talk about like stretching the rubber band and then it snaps.
(01:11:07):
It's just that six months of just waiting, the waiting game, the waiting game, probablylike ruminating, ruminating, ruminating.
Okay, I think I'm gonna be okay.
No, I'm not gonna be okay.
I think this is gonna work out.
don't know.
You all of this stuff going, going, going.
keeping it close to her chest and tell that snap of that email.
(01:11:28):
And then at that point, that and then it's worth mentioning that she hadn't gotten arefill on her ADHD medication, has, like some of the, like the sudden, like when you go
off of it really fast, very suddenly, which it sounds like happened, uh suicidal thoughts,suicidal ideation is a side effect of suddenly.
(01:11:52):
stopping the meds.
So who knows if that kind of played into it, like dealing with her symptoms of also justthe ADHD coming back full force.
And it's not clear why there was like some mix up, some problem with the doctor that was-The insurance.
(01:12:12):
And so that may have played a role also in just this absolute crisis moment that she had.
But yeah, so the trial is set for 2026.
I'm not sure which month for the Katie Myers Parents versus Stanford University.
(01:12:36):
And we'll see how that unfolds.
But a lot of people, a lot of students at Stanford had complaints about this department atStanford.
The Department of Student Conduct.
wish them luck.
I hope they win and I hope things change.
Just have a little more empathy here, folks.
(01:13:00):
And a little more, that whole thing about the sticky thing about disclosure and parents.
It's very individual, but yeah, I think your hands are tied as an institution in terms ofgoing to the parents, but I could easily see if I was in the position of that dean.
(01:13:21):
walking over to the sports department and saying, look, she's going through an intenseprocess with us.
so can you guys make sure that she's getting support or something?
That's all it might have taken.
Took it.
That's all it might have taken.
Took it.
Yeah.
No, it's true though.
(01:13:41):
uh Something like that.
yeah, a coach, even contacting a therapist, like in the counseling department and saying,hey, you know what?
We've got this thing going.
If you could please reach out to her and then the counselor can say, hey, you're goingthrough this.
So I've been made aware of this thing.
(01:14:02):
This is confidential.
Call me, text me anytime, you know.
You're not alone.
Dude, I don't think I could handle that.
Honestly, I have this thing about making, well, obviously about making mistakes.
I have this, my dad was a cop, so maybe this is where it comes from.
But I have this total fear about something like this happening to me.
(01:14:25):
And this whole episode we've been talking, I've had this pain in my gut.
Like, there's something so awful about that.
sitting there, living your life, going through the motions.
not knowing your fate, being on trial, like literally being on trial.
And I think about like Karen Reed or like, how do you survive the not knowing and theuncertainty and the fact that your whole life could change on a dime?
(01:14:51):
Not that she couldn't have come back from that, but that's the way I think she needed isshe needed people to say, so, so what, so what the worst thing that ever could happen to
you could happen to you, but you can still survive that.
And you can.
You can appeal it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can, you can appeal this.
just, it's, I keep going.
I, and I know that we, could, we could spend all day just going back to this one thing,which is, which is, what the fuck, dude?
(01:15:17):
It's not like she like ran, did a running start from the back of, of like a lecture halland like assaulted or teach her.
It's not like she like broke someone's nose.
It's not, you know what I mean?
know.
uh
kissed someone against their will.
Well, mean, that's so funny.
(01:15:39):
like, well, isn't that how people do it?
I don't know.
I just remember being at parties and people kissing each other without being like, can Ikiss you?
Anyway, but I know that that's the thing now.
And I agree.
I think it's a good thing.
But yeah, it's like, I feel bad because I keep thinking, am I going to come away from thissitting in my bedroom tonight trying to go to sleep thinking, did I just say that it was
(01:16:02):
no big deal that someone dumped hot coffee on someone?
It's not, it's a thing.
it's not like it's not like a big, big deal.
Well, I guess the point is, like, it's, she did is technically assault.
If I'm going to say that the football player kind of forcing himself on this girl isassault, I also have to admit that when you pour hot coffee on somebody, when you dump hot
(01:16:28):
coffee, and again, maybe it was an accident, the hot coffee ending up on the footballplayer was assault, and I'm not trying to downplay it.
But to not look at the context of the situation, to look at it completely outside ofcontext.
It's not like he cut in line and so she fucking dumped hot coffee.
It's not like he bumped into her so she dumped hot coffee.
(01:16:52):
Look at the context.
You have to look at the whole thing and understand.
Also understand that it's not that it was, it's like, are you really going?
to take everything away from this girl, everything away from her because of a mistake,this one mistake.
(01:17:16):
This one mistake, she didn't take like a fucking uh tire iron to his knee.
She didn't cripple him.
know, she didn't, it sucks.
It's a shitty thing that fucking happened.
It shouldn't have happened.
Technically, it absolutely shouldn't have.
And I'm not trying to, and I know it's, I keep going back to it's not like she assaulted,it's just, it just doesn't seem fair that if they're gonna let that thing die, the kiss,
(01:17:47):
if they're gonna let that die, and it's fine.
You know, the girl, maybe she's right.
Maybe it's gonna be a lot worse for her if they moved forward with it and then you've gotan angry football team and she's afraid for her safety.
Like, I understand that.
Or whatever, we don't know why she didn't go through it.
We don't know exactly what happened.
(01:18:07):
But the point is she didn't wanna pursue it and so they let it go.
So they should have fucking let this thing.
I know.
Can't we just apologize?
Sorry.
Remember when you could just say you're sorry.
Sorry.
Didn't have to like institute.
Again, that's the thing I'm saying is like, think that these institutions sometimes, forwhatever reason, it's like being in a cult or something.
(01:18:34):
like, I'm trying to figure out a way to describe this.
like, it's like a hyper fixation on discipline because discipline is your job.
you know what I mean?
It's almost like the Stanford prison experiment.
You know, this is my role and I take it very seriously.
You know, like, mm, you know, I'm going to like do what I can to like, I just looked likemy mom when I did that.
(01:18:58):
Just a little too identified with one's work and role and power and.
So do a better job at it.
I know exactly.
Right.
That's like that's fine.
Do a fucking better job at it.
Well, you know that thing about evil?
Yeah.
And incompetence and how like it's usually incompetence.
(01:19:19):
But it looks evil, but it is probably incompetence.
But maybe a little both.
Like, yeah, I just feel like if they had just said, okay, we're going to call the footballplayer and we're going to call Katie Meyer into a conference room, let's hash it out.
Yeah.
You know, wouldn't that be better?
Learning, learn from it.
you could actually, shaming people doesn't really, I mean, it does sort of sometimesextinguish behaviors, but it doesn't really like allow you an opportunity to kind of grow
(01:19:49):
and change and be forgiven and forgive and make sense of things and understand.
Yeah, it's stupid.
And I just, I hope they change that.
I hope they have some, or maybe they, maybe that was an option and they just didn't takeit.
Yeah, I guess we'd have to look more into it.
(01:20:09):
ah I'm sure that with the lawsuit, they've probably like gone deep into it.
ah What was available, the information that was available made it seem like all they putin the email to her, which I'm sure she read several times through was, this is what
you're facing.
(01:20:29):
And it's like, really?
Because sometimes people beat the shit out of each other and then they're assigned angermanagement.
So there was there's another fucking option.
Okay, it seems like you did this out of anger So now we're requiring you spend the weekendattending an anger management course.
How about that?
I know.
It's like we don't make mistakes here at Stanford.
(01:20:52):
Yeah, we don't ever fuck up.
Maybe you didn't get the memo before we let you in to our hallowed halls, but we don'tfuck up ever.
So anyway, guys, we can go on and on and on.
It's fucking, fucking so tragic that this happened, that Katie Meyer basically felt likeshe had no recourse and she took her life.
(01:21:20):
Someone who clearly had
so much to fucking offer, you know?
And somebody who was like a really fucking, who was like a solid person.
Like I was watching her and I'm like, man, I would want her on my team.
I would want her, she would, you I'd want her like having my back because she fucking goesall out for her team and for people that she feels like that need, that don't feel like
(01:21:46):
they can speak for themselves.
Like she could have really fucking done something.
amazing.
She already was doing something amazing.
And so if anything good can come out of this, hope that there are people that when they'refaced with this anxious urge to take their own lives, that there's something in place,
(01:22:14):
that didn't exist for Katie, I hope it exists for others because of this.
Yeah, and you don't have to do it alone.
just no one does.
There's always someone who you can talk to and who can help.
And I just imagine how alone she felt and it just breaks my heart.
That is the most heartbreaking thing is just thinking about her just feeling absolutelyscared.
(01:22:37):
Oh, guys.
Yeah.
So.
Another upbeat episode.
Yeah, another upbeat episode.
Sorry, guys.
It's just important that we talk about this because, you know, after the Madison Hallerantragedy in 2014, and then we fast forward to 2022, and it's like, wow, nothing's really
(01:22:58):
changed.
You know, there's not anything in place for these these young people that are struggling.
And other things that haven't even reached the level of news that both of these tragediesreached.
But okay, thank you so much for listening guys.
Thanks for listening.
(01:23:20):
Please follow us on our socials at Secret Passage Podcast on Instagram or X at Secret PassPod.
You could also join our Patreon where we have different videos and other episodes,trapdoor episodes as we call them available.
(01:23:42):
And yeah, we will see you next week.
See you next week.
Thanks guys, bye.
uh
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