The Idaho Four: A Tragedy’s Ripple Effect, Media, and the Search for Answers

In this episode of the Secret Passage podcast, we dive into the chilling Idaho Four murder case, exploring the tragic events, the investigation, the media's handling of the case, and the emotional toll on victims’ friends and families. We look at the psychology of Bryan Kohberger, and discuss how early intervention might prevent such tragedies. 

 

Like, subscribe, and follow us. Here's how:

• Instagram @secretpassagepodcast
• X @secretpasspod
• TikTok @secretpassagepodcast

Secret Passage Podcast is hosted by Dana Vespoli and Shannon Rogers

Producer: Tim Rogers

Editor: Mitch Silver

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This podcast may contain discussions of graphic violence, unsettling themes, supernaturalphenomena, and other topics that some listeners may find disturbing or triggering.
Listener discretion is advised.
This podcast is intended for entertainment purposes only.
The opinions expressed are simply those of the individual hosts and do not represent theprofession of psychology or constitute professional advice.

(00:38):
Welcome back to the Secret Passage Podcast.
I am your host, Dana Visfoli, and with me is my co-host, Shannon Rogers.
That's me.
Oh man, we are recording a little later than we normally do, but that's okay.
With the episode that we're doing, we're talking about the Idaho Four murder case thatrecently um wrapped up.

(01:08):
And there was just so much more information coming out with the lift of the gag order.
So we just kept getting more and more and more information.
But before we get going with that,
Shannon, did you happen to wander down any secret passages this past week?
I did.
So I've been thinking a lot about unpopular opinions because I harbor so many of them.

(01:36):
But also, OK, good.
So I'm going to ask you about yours.
So I told you how Tim was playing poker recently, right?
And he got home like 430 in the morning.
it was, remember that commercial from the 80s where I think it was about domestic violenceand like the woman's asleep?
and the guy comes home super late and he cracks open the door and he's like, ah, thelittle woman.

(02:00):
Do you remember this?
I don't remember.
It was so dark.
was this commercial.
Basically, it was like alluding to something.
He was going to do something.
A s*** her.
Something.
Yeah.
So anyway, that's what it was like.
No, but he came home at 4.30 in the morning.
It was like, But he had been playing poker with his, they have a little

(02:22):
they named their little poker crew the Roy Boys.
So I want to give a shout out to the Roy Boys.
And it's like Return on Investment Boys something.
uh So they were playing poker.
And then Tim and his friend Lucas got into this big argument about Sinners.
Because Lucas is like Sinners is the best movie.
my god, it's so good.

(02:42):
And Tim did not like it at all.
So they were arguing the whole night about it.
And finally at the very end, someone exploded and was like shot.
Oh, and so he was telling me about that.
Hi Lucas.
This is a shout out to Wookie.
Lucas is like, still think it's the best movie ever.
Truly.

(03:04):
Lucas, leave that in the comments.
So anyway, so we thinking about that.
And I realized there's a show that I absolutely hate that people love.
Have you seen it, Poker Face?
have not seen it.
That's the one with Natasha Lyonne, right?

(03:25):
So I love Natasha Lyonne as a human.
Like think she's so cool and she has a cool voice and she has really cool hair and coolstyle.
But in this show, her character is so annoying.
It's like Natasha Lyonne times a thousand and she, you know, it's got this weird sort ofkitschy kind of vibe or something.

(03:48):
And she's always kind of like, it's like she's got this attitude like.
Like, hey, wise guy, eh, you know, like.
like, that's totally her the way she sounds.
Yeah, yeah.
So I just that's one of my unpopular opinions.
I cannot stand that show.
And I have many more, but I was curious if you have any TV shows or movies or things that

(04:12):
loves and I hate.
ah yes, there's one.
And I actually got into an argument with someone about this movie and it was the movie.
It's too mama.
Tambien.
Hated that movie.
I hated that movie.
I, I, it annoyed me so much.

(04:34):
It was such a try hard movie.
I love Gail Garcia Barnell.
Like, like he's great in it.
But it was just so like, it felt really lazy.
m And like, it's, there was so much that was so obvious, there's the telltale like deathrattle that happens when the main actress, she's like.

(05:00):
I wonder if she is going to die at the end.
Someone's getting consumption.
Yeah, exactly.
And then it's just like, this summer they'll never forget.
You know, she made the men or whatever.
It was just it annoyed me.
So there was that one.
I just I thought it was dumb, ah beautiful looking.
I also feel like there's maybe not so much now, but there's a period of time when itseemed like people would conflate like a good looking movie with a good quality, good

(05:31):
writing, acting and all that.
And so.
Yeah, there's that one.
There's a ton.
There's a ton where I'm like, am I the only one that fucking hates this or thinks thisisn't good?
So that's mine.
I'm trying to think of a TV show that everyone loves and I just can't get behind.

(05:52):
trying to think.
I started watching Yellow Jackets.
The first season is incredible, but I feel like...
I feel like no one thought it through.
So like there's a strong first season and then it's almost like the writers all like gothead injuries and like don't know what the fuck to do now.

(06:17):
And so it's just a thing where I'm like, I'm not sure I'm supposed to be hating ahShawna's character, but I kind of am.
And then.
can we figure out what the fuck is going on in the wilderness?
Is there a supernatural element or not?
And then all this kind of, and then it got really camp.

(06:37):
Like I felt like the first season was not campy at all.
Like I was like, this is amazing.
And this kind of meditation on female relationships and teenagers and coming out as gay,like there's a lot going on.
How does one...
move from that kind of trauma and navigate their way through the world now.

(06:57):
All of this stuff.
And then it just, it's like it was up here and then it's like, so I started season threeand I'm like, I don't know that I want to keep watching.
It's gotten really comedic in a way that just doesn't feel, it's like, it's like a verydifferent show now.
Like it doesn't understand what it's doing.

(07:18):
And that's a shame.
Oh really?
With the last episode?
we gave up on the second season.
It just feels like it's going to turn into an annoying The Walking Dead, Forever, Zombie.
funny you should say that the twins were, well, mainly like one of my older twin was ahuge walking dead fan, mainly Rick Grimes, huge Rick Grimes fan.

(07:41):
I know.
I know he quotes,
What about Carl?
He didn't like Carl.
I'll ask him about Carl.
Carl is But he said the same thing where like Walking Dead just shit the bed, you know?
It's no Sopranos, no Breaking, I mean, there's so many examples of television, liketelevision series that just fucking nailed it and just stayed solid for the most part.

(08:02):
Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, uh Six Feet Under for me.
I balled my eyes out.
The series finale, I was like balling.
Oh
oh Like so much love for all the characters and all that.
yeah, so it's just a thing where I'm like, it's been done guys.
It's been done.
They've managed to, you know, so I totally went off.

(08:26):
I'm sorry.
That's okay.
I like it.
em How about you?
Did you go down any secret paths?
Oh man, yes.
I know I was complaining to you before we started.
uh Yeah, I just have to weigh in on this reaction to Sidney Sweeney and the American Eagleads.

(08:50):
Yeah.
I just want to say as someone, as a woman of color who has experienced fucking racism,
I was a teen model for a while from about 14 to 18 years old.
And I remember getting notes from my agency like, hey, don't tan too much this summer.

(09:18):
You'll look too ethnic.
It's kind of racist, kind of weird.
There won't be as many jobs for you if you're too dark skinned.
And told, hey, you look like you're gaining weight.
You need to slim down.
And I was five foot seven and 115 pounds.
Like that's yeah.

(09:41):
And so that was kind of the messaging when I was young.
And it's a thing now where I'm sitting here and I see Sydney Sweeney and you know, comeacross the, my feed and these ads and she's a healthy looking.

(10:01):
She's got big natural boobs.
She doesn't have like a uh round ass.
She's got a slightly thicker waist.
It looks gorgeous, right?
I'm like a flat butt, thick waist lady.
And I'm like, yes.
When I saw her get into that car without a cutout at her waistline, I was like, wow,that's pretty revolutionary.

(10:25):
Right?
Yeah.
And it's just a thing where I'm like, I'm just seeing a woman with a healthy looking body.
And I'm so happy, know, average height, healthy looking body.
Does she have perfect symmetry in her face?
No, I love her for that.
I love the fact that she's not perfect, but she's gorgeous.

(10:47):
She's a gorgeous girl.
And hearing this shit being critical, saying that this is Nazi propaganda.
I'm going to send you something real quick and I want you to tell me what it looks like toyou.
Okay.
heard a linguist talking about this, by the way, saying that the use of the word genesevokes a network around that about eugenics.

(11:15):
And I'm like, didn't evoke that for me.
Maybe you should look at your own mind for a moment.
Check your phone.
Check your phone.
These are coming through.
Tell me what that looks like to you.
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, you want to know what that is?
People watching this.

(11:35):
This is the recent spring Ralph Lauren ad campaign with the first ad there's a very prepschool looking white guy.
The guy in the center is a he's a very handsome black man.
There's a white woman next to him and an Asian man next to her.

(11:57):
That is the recent spring campaign from Ralph Lauren.
The next ad three really
fucking striking black guys and then what appears to be a mixed race girl.
And the next ad over, I mean, this keeps going.
Yeah, the head at Ralph Lauren right now, his name is uh James Jeter.

(12:21):
He's black.
The first black gentleman to head Ralph Lauren.
And that's happening.
That's a thing.
That's thing.
You wouldn't have seen that.
You wouldn't have seen that when I was a kid trying to make it and not getting a wholeshit ton of bookings, you know?
Yeah.
So miss me with the fucking eugenics bullshit.

(12:43):
You know what I mean?
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Sydney Sweeney has blonde hair and blue eyes, but to say she doesn'thave good genes and having good genes doesn't mean let's kill anyone who is not blonde
haired and blue eyed.
It drives me up the fucking wall.
I'm so excited.
to see a woman with a woman's body when we've got girls starving themselves or puttingshit in their face in their early 20s, fucking put and doing the Brazilian butt lift

(13:12):
things, not thinking they're enough as they are.
Yes.
mean, was seriously, I saw that flat butt and I was like, yeah.
Because, know, I mean, it's just like, I mean, people say it all the time.
It's nice to see yourself represented.
as somebody who does not have a lot of facial symmetry or I have some asymmetry, em it'snice.

(13:33):
It's just nice to see a person, you know, who's
Real?
doesn't have fucking shit in her lips.
You know, it's just like, it makes perfect sense that American Eagle would partner withher considering she is very, very popular and it's nice to see a natural bodied girl.

(13:55):
mean, everyone can have a different discussion about sex, selling, clothing.
It has for a long time now.
But as someone who's like,
basically 53, I'll be 53 in September, just excited to see a girl that doesn't look, thatlooks like she fucking eats cheeseburgers and fries and just being happy about that.

(14:16):
To just hear all this negativity come out.
And I'm like, are you guys not seeing the great things?
You wanna know?
Here, I'm gonna send you this other one.
Cause I was like, am I crazy?
Because right now, while Sydney Sweeney is modeling that, we see.
No one's talking about how beautiful it is to see an American brand like Ralph Lauren havefucking representation.

(14:40):
Look at who has been the spokesmodel for you St.
Laurent for a little while now.
I'm sending this over to you.
Sorry guys.
And if I'm pissing you off and you don't agree with me, fuck off.
I'm sorry.
I'm done.
I'm Gen X.
I've fucking, I've seen some shit and I'm seeing some really great stuff now.

(15:02):
That is Zoe Kravitz who is black as the face of Yves Saint Laurent.
That's a thing.
Sorry, Rihanna wasn't available to do American Eagle.
She's busy with fucking Fenty.
She's busy being a thick, beautiful black woman who like has fucking curves and she's busyright now.

(15:26):
I'm sorry.
just again, all this weird, it's Nazi propaganda.
It takes several fucking seats.
Go touch some grass.
uh Some of us are thinking about real shit.
Like, I don't know.
Are we going to survive another fire because our reservoirs are still fucking empty here?
Also, aliens are coming, you know that, right?

(15:47):
Did you read that on the New York Post?
Oh, really?
Oh, there's a scientist guy from uh Harvard that is saying there's this massive objectthat's like going about to duck behind the sun in October.
there's a theory that it could be alien.
Do you think it's playing hide and seek with us?
It's we're behind the sun.

(16:08):
It will be.
And that's what I said, it will take cover by, I didn't read the whole article, but it's,yeah, anyway.
right, bigger things to think about.
Yeah, I'm just, if you want to go fucking cry about the fact that Sydney Sweeney has goodgenes and is the partnered with American Eagle.

(16:31):
Meanwhile, people seem to forget that she was called ugly by a Hollywood producer.
Not that long ago.
They were like, she's not even attractive.
Poor Sydney Sweeney.
She's just like, can go in, make up your mind.
I'm either, I'm either like,
Perfect Aryan race, beautiful, perfect woman, or I'm ugly.
I know.
Welcome to being a woman.

(16:51):
I mean, Pam Anderson.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pam Anderson was criticized for looking like a Barbie doll in the nineties.
And now she's criticized cause she won't put on a stitch of makeup.
Cause she's like, guys, I'm done.
I I'm happy with the way I look.
And they're like, it's not good enough.
Put on some eyeliner.
But that haircut though.
uh Yeah.

(17:12):
Fuck off.
enough about that.
Let's talk about a Brian Coburger.
Oh shit.
Yeah, love it.
Bring it.
Let's become shock jocks.
Let's just like get on here and let it rip.
It's a thing where I'm like, I can be really quiet.
Like I can be quiet about shit or I'm just, but I'm too old to just like, I'm just, Idon't know.

(17:39):
I feel like it's such a disservice when we finally have a girl who's of average heightwith a healthy body.
It's not a stick.
that also isn't pumped full of silicone and Botox.
No disrespect to anyone who does that.
I went through my Botox phase.
I could probably stand some more, but I can't justify the cost.

(18:00):
But it's just, it's nice that young women can see someone who just is natural.
I'm just tired of being quiet.
Even if we lose listeners, sorry.
But.
Everyone knows about the Idaho Four case.
One of the things that Shannon and I have talked about is like what we do when we discusscases is there's plenty of podcasts out there already that do an excellent job of giving

(18:30):
you the details, like the hardcore details, like breaking down every inch of the case.
There's True Crime Garage, very, very thorough, very detailed, the prosecutors.
very thorough and detailed, Crime Weekly thorough and detailed, like they exist.
So if you guys want just the detailed breakdown of everything that happened, um thosepodcasts are worth checking out, because I'm sure they've covered it.

(18:57):
We're more interested in giving you the synopsis, the timeline, like the nuts and bolts ofthe case, and then discussing aspects of the case that resonate with us and maybe will
resonate with you as well.
Oh, and by the way, if people are watching and you see us looking at our phones, we'relooking at our notes.

(19:18):
Because I realized last time when you were talking and I'm looking at my phone, it justlooked like I was.
I'm being rude.
I'm all on board.
uh Yeah, so uh the Idaho college murders occurred November 13th of 2022 in Moscow, Idaho.
These were four University of Idaho students.

(19:43):
Two of them were 20 years old.
That would be Ethan Chapin, Zana Cronodle.
They were 20, boyfriend and girlfriend.
And then the other two victims were
Kaylee Goncalves, 21, and Madison Mogin, Mogin or Mogin?

(20:04):
21, in a house, sort of known as a party house near the campus.
And there were other two uh roommates that were spared, Dylan Mortenson and Bethany uhFunk, who were in their own rooms at the time.

(20:25):
Uh, so what happened is the night before on November 12th, it was, you know, it's a smalltown.
It's a, it's a very safe town.
It's known as being a place where you really don't need to lock your doors.
You're, going to be fine.
And with, wasn't it one, one, two, two Kings road, the Kings road house.

(20:48):
I may have the house number wrong.
It no longer exists.
Now they, they tore it down.
But it was a place with a lot of action, a of people going in and out, in and out.
And so that day there was a lot going on, of events.
There was a formal, there was uh parties.
uh Everyone in the house was in a fraternity or a sorority.

(21:08):
Well, Ethan Chapin was in Sigma Chi and then uh the girls were in some differentsororities.
They were also pre-gaming at the house at like two in the afternoon.
it was like a marathon day.
When I saw all the things they were doing, I was like.
Whoa.
Yeah, I know.
was like, that's like three different days for me.
I know, three months.
Yeah.
I mean, especially now I'm like, what are you guys doing awake at 9pm?

(21:32):
You're crazy.
uh But yeah, so a lot of activity going on.
And then Ethan ended up like going over to the Kings Road house to hang out with Zanna.
And they, everyone sort of ended up retiring to the house.
the, there's, some, uh the viral video of, of Madison and uh

(21:57):
Kaylee at the food truck, at the town food truck to get some snacks to take home.
And so everyone ended up at the house.
Kaylee and Madison were in Madison's room and Zana and Ethan were in Zana's room.

(22:19):
And then Bethany was in her room and Dylan was in her room.
So Dylan was on
It was in the basement room, if I recall correctly.
No, uh Bethany was.
Dylan was on the first.
first floor, the second floor was uh Ethan and Xana and the third floor was Madison andKaylee.

(22:43):
Madison and Kaylee were best friends since the time they were little.
They grew up together essentially and were like sisters pretty much.
And so I read this book, this James Patterson book, there was a co-author, his name standsout because I'm most familiar with it.
um
He goes into a lot of detail about the individual students and their families.

(23:10):
And it makes it just all the more heartbreaking because, know, we know intellectuallythese are people with entire histories and lives and relationships, hopes and dreams, all
of that.
Then hearing some of their backstories, especially Zana.
I really just felt so especially drawn to Zana because she didn't have

(23:32):
She had a challenging upbringing and like really just made a place for herself atUniversity of Idaho and her relationship with Ethan was just, it was incredibly sweet.
And Ethan and his family were just amazing people.
But the ah investigation into the, unfolded revealed that Zana was awake.

(23:56):
I think everyone else was asleep.
uh It's worth mentioning that especially
Bethany and Dylan.
Well, Dylan mainly had been drinking.
I think they all had, but Dylan?
Yeah, and Dylan was pretty wasted.
Yeah, think so.
And Xana got, well, yeah, I was going say talk about the food delivery thing.

(24:16):
So she was active on TikTok, she was active on her phone, then Food DoorDash delivered ataround 412, I think.
I think it was like 359 or four or something.
was active on her phone as she was eating, she was kind of scrolling TikTok in her room.

(24:38):
So then shortly after, Dylan in her room heard noises.
So she was in and out of what seems like kind of like a weird, blurry, alcohol-fueled kindof like sleep where you're kind of coming in and out of consciousness and she could hear

(24:58):
uh sounds and she heard some whimpering, crying, and she heard a voice say, it's okay.
I'm going to help you or I'm here to help you.
Something weird like that.
Just going in and out of sleep.
And uh she got a lot of flack from folks that were like, as they were getting information,deciding that this atrocity, this crime had to have somehow, Dylan had to have been

(25:29):
involved, Dylan and Bethany, because why are they still alive?
And this doesn't make sense and all of that.
um
And Dylan apparently really wrestled with what to do with what she was hearing because inone way it's not so weird to hear weird sounds coming out of a party house, right?

(25:53):
Like loud noises, the dog barking, all of this kind of stuff.
It isn't so weird, but she was unsettled enough to eventually open up her door.
and look out.
And at that point she sees someone pass by and she can't really make sense out of whatshe's seeing.
He's covered.

(26:13):
She's like, is he a fireman?
Was there a fire he put out?
But they made eye contact, which had to have been terrifying if you've ever seen that.
Brian Coburger's eyes.
Yeah.
Can you explain Sanpaku eyes for anyone who doesn't know?

(26:33):
Yeah, okay.
Had you heard of them before?
No.
Okay, my friend.
the one who introduced me to that.
And then of course I became obsessed with whether or not people have it or not.
So I'm looking at my notes.
OK.
So my friend introduced me to this concept.
She had the book.
There's a guy, George Oshawa, who was a Japanese microbiotic philosopher who popularizedSanpaku eyes.

(26:59):
He wrote a book called You Are All Sanpaku.
And his theory was that if you have Sanpaku eyes, well, the folklore or the belief aroundit is that if you have
San Paco wise, means you have three whites exposed in your eyes, like JFK, like AOC, theIrish on Aubrey Plaza.

(27:21):
you, yeah.
Brian Coburger.
um
Coburger Charles Manson, but like Brian Coburger, I don't know if he actually has Senpakueyes or if he's just chronically like this.
The bottoms some yeah, I wondered about him because the bottoms
No, because when I do it, you can't see my bottoms.
You just see the top, all the way around, and then it stops.

(27:45):
So yeah, I guess I don't have something.
No, you don't.
He does sometimes and not other times, but then other people were saying he does.
So I just went with it because...
He probably does.
He should if he doesn't.
em So it's a warning sign of imbalances within a person's system, physical, physiological,and spiritual.
And the belief is that it can indicate a fate, a person's fate and a tragic, potentialtragic events.

(28:14):
So there you have it.
no, when you think about someone like JFK, you think about Princess Diana.
Yeah.
And uh Marilyn Monroe apparently had it also.
She?
I did a quick uh search after you mentioned it this last time around.
I did not realize they looked into each other's eyes.

(28:35):
I didn't know he had eye contact with...
I'm pretty sure she made eye contact and and like so he turns he looks at her she seesenough that she registered he had bushy eyebrows he had like the full kind of face thing
on he was holding something that she couldn't register what it was but she it in the waythat we try to make connections yeah our own minds of what we're seeing she thought it was

(28:58):
like maybe something related to firefighting like she had sort of decide she had kind ofcreated this narrative to make sense out of what she was saying
Also, she was still coming in and out of being intoxicated.
And anxious.
If you're anxious, that just changes everything in terms of, right?
And it sounds like she really tended towards anxiety based on Maisie.

(29:21):
I had to laugh a little bit in the documentary of Maisie's like, shut the fuck up Dylan.
Because Dylan was so freaking out and Maisie was trying to hear what was happening.
Like, where's my brother?
Maisie is Ethan's sister.
He's a triplet.
So it's him, Hunter and Maisie, the three of them.
ah anyway, Dylan.

(29:45):
saw him leave and she shut her door and was freaking out.
And that's when she tried to, you know, everyone was pretty much familiar with this,trying to text and call roommates, text and call Bethany.
Bethany doesn't know what's going on either.
I'm not sure that Bethany heard anything or not.

(30:06):
What sounded like a firecracker.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So she, yeah, she was on the very bottom and then Dylan was one floor up.
And they ended up, one of them going to the other one's room.
I think Bethany ran down to Dylan's, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And stayed the night.
no, Dylan ran down to Bethany's because she was in the basement.

(30:29):
felt safer to go down.
Yeah, yeah.
She's like, come to my room.
She texted her, come run to my room, and she ran down there.
And then they stayed the night together and were in and out of sleep until they contactedEmily, who's another friend of theirs, uh and who was with uh Hunter Johnson, who is the

(30:52):
fucking unsung hero in this.
He took it upon himself to go to the house the minute he heard that they didn't know whatwas going on and they needed help.
And they had, at that point, made their way outside.
So you're picturing them panicked, these girls.
just like, do we leave?
They're afraid to call the police because they don't want to sound crazy.
It's that still trying to rationalize what's happening because again, who'd thought that amasked killer would break, like come into your house and kill your roommates?

(31:24):
Like it defies any kind of sense of reason.
Like that sounds crazy.
m
honest though, we would definitely think it was a serial killer.
Of course.
Right.
But I used to a healthy diet of true crime and horror movies.
I'd like immediately, of course.
um But yeah, Austin, um I'm sorry, Hunter, what did I call him?

(31:49):
Austin Hunter Johnson met them outside the house.
They said, you know, we don't know what's going on.
They're not answering their phones at this point.
It was like almost it was close to noon, which again, some some of the.
um
social media armchair detectives found that incredibly suspicious that it was so late.

(32:09):
It's like they do they've been up fucking drinking.
Yeah, they didn't go to bed till like 4.35.
Yeah.
Hunter goes into the house and goes up to the second floor and sees Zana Cronodal dead, uhlaying on the floor with her head kind of pointed in towards part way out, part way in.

(32:31):
think her feet were slightly out of her room, clearly bleeding out, stabbed to death.
And that Ethan was on the bed facing the wall stabbed.
Bleeding, like blood everywhere, blood everywhere.
And Hunter started to go down the stairs.

(32:51):
Emily was on her way up, his girlfriend, their friend.
And he said, hey, just go downstairs.
They're unconscious.
And so she turns, goes, they all go outside again.
He gets on the phone to 911.
And to spare the girls, he just says they're unconscious on the phone.

(33:13):
And that's why some people are like, why did, why did, do you think that they'reunconscious?
You all the early report, you when you remember this, when the case happened, you know, Iwere talking about it.
Yeah, I know.
Why would he say they're unconscious when they were stabbed to death?
It's like, he's trying to spare them.
Can we talk about the 911 operator?

(33:34):
Sure.
Do you remember this person?
God, I love the 911 calls.
She's like, what's your emergency?
And she's like, is she breathing?
She's like, is she breathing?
Just so you could hear the disdain in her voice.
just like, yeah.

(33:55):
But once they said that they weren't breathing, she perked up a bit and was a little morehelpful.
But you could tell.
She was really annoyed that they were passing the phone around to different people duringthe call.
Yeah, granted, that's got to be frustrating.
We are just trying to get to get information.
But yeah, once that happens.
So, oh, and and Hunter Johnson also had grabbed a knife out of the kitchen after seeingZanna and Ethan.

(34:21):
He did not go up to see about Kayleigh and Madison, because I think, of course, he's he'safraid.
Moving forward.
Hunter couldn't barely talk after.
Like by the end, by the time that Kaylee, but that hunters, that Ethan Chapin's family,you know, made the drive, they immediately started driving.

(34:45):
Alerts were going out from University of Idaho to the students to shelter in place to likelock their doors, all this kind of thing.
And the school also opened up rooms at the local Best Western for the students living atthe King's Roadhouse and then other ones as well.
to stay at the hotel and for the families as well.

(35:08):
And one thing that stood out to me in the book was how Stacey Chapin, Ethan's mother, justwith this family, I looked into a little more about how they're coping and what their, I
guess, attitude was about the plea agreement that, of course, is a source of conflict for

(35:32):
folks following the case and of course for the Gonzalves family and all that.
But Stacey Chapin just despite her loss, despite losing one of her beloved children, tookit upon herself to make sure that everyone else was okay.
Made sure they had enough to eat, that they had enough blankets, that they were beingcomforted.

(35:57):
This woman who lost her...
her child was doing this.
just was like, if I could have had, just, that family you want, that's a family to beproud of.
That's a family that just, you just would want for yourself or for others.
Like just they're good people, You can tell she raised, she and her husband, like theyraised good kids.

(36:22):
And that was the other heartbreaking thing is when they dropped their kids off, all threeof them went to University of Idaho, because they're all triplets.
all the same age.
She was driving home with her husband and they were like, hey, we did it.
Like we raised, we raised good kids.
Like we did it.
Like they were so happy, so proud of their children, their children were so close to eachother, doing well in life.

(36:45):
Like all of that, Ethan was just a good dude, you know?
And he was so good to Zana, like such a good balance for her and her life.
that they were robbed of this in the most brutal,
way possible and despite that this mom is just making sure that everyone has a mother thatnight.

(37:07):
Yeah, that's what Hunter said.
said he was surprised they were taking care of them that night.
And she even said, she goes, well, what else?
What else was that?
mean, like, like it just, it, sort of for her, it, it, it only made sense that she didthis.
Like, like, of course I did that.
Of course I did.
You know, she's a mother.

(37:28):
It, like it, every kind of sense of the word, she was a mother.
What people needed a mom.
Maisie was also, did you remember the part how Ethan went to a function with Maisie thatnight as like, and as her like date or something?
then they to a party afterward and he was texting her, but she was asleep and he was like,come out, come with us, come hang out with us.

(37:50):
She missed all the texts and then he signed off with, love you.
And she said, and when she said it, she was, she's like, you know, and, we don't say thatto each other.
Yes.
ah
Yeah, dude, I'm telling you, was reading again, the book is absolutely worth reading.
really get to know, we lose sight with these cases when they happen.

(38:15):
We lose sight of the humanity of the people involved because they become, we're a culturethat really looks at everything as entertainment, unfortunately, and as a story.
And we lose sight of the fact that these
you know, these were people and there still are people living, Dylan and Bethany andMaisie and these guys and Hunter Johnson and Hunter Chapin, there's two hunters, Chapin is

(38:47):
one of the triplets and then there's Hunter Johnson.
I would get their names mixed up sometimes, yeah, I like reading the book and I was like,yeah.
So we know that, you know, without getting too far into the,
minutia of the case.
uh Sheath was found, Brian Coburger was the suspect, he was apprehended.

(39:10):
a PhD student in criminology at Washington State, Pennsylvania native, and was from theget when information came out about him.
He was very, very, very odd fellow, very strange.
It's funny because in the book,

(39:31):
If you, if we were doing a drinking game and reading the James Patterson book I read andyou said, take a shot.
Dana, every time James Patterson describes Brian Coburger's bulging eyes, I would be inthe hospital getting my stomach pumped.
It was like bulging eyes, bulging eyes, bulging.

(39:52):
I'm like, James, bro, you're a writer.
Number one, his eyes don't actually bulge.
They're just wide open.
But also
menacing eyes, staring eyes, uh zanpaku eyes, frightening eyes, large eyes.
I don't know, it was like bulging eyes, bulging.
I'm like, he's not a frog.
Like that just makes it sound like he's like got Marty Feldman eyes.

(40:14):
know, he's all, I'm like, he's just, his eyes are menacing.
Bulging just sort of like makes it sound like you're like choking him and he's like, butso that was just minor, minor detail there.
But, um
We know he pled guilty and he is spending the rest of his life behind bars.

(40:35):
But the things that stood out to me, Shannon, because I remember when this broke.
And one of the things you and I described is there is like this Wes Craven slasher movieelement to it.
There is a...

(40:56):
component that stands out.
have good looking college students, sorority girls, uh one fraternity brother.
ah You have this safe, small, idyllic town.
You have very normal, well-adjusted, popular kids.

(41:19):
And this really graphic, horrible, violent crime happens seemingly out of nowhere.
And so it captured the imagination, I think, of the people.
Because when folks are like, what is it?
What's the phenomenon around this case?
Why do people care so much?
It's like, well, one, we're a generation raised on uh movies with this as a plot point.

(41:44):
There's also something that I think resonates when bad things happen to people like that.
How safe am I?
Right?
Yeah, this wasn't supposed to happen.
know, they weren't in a, a, a,
when
in Oakland, exactly, they weren't in New York.

(42:06):
They weren't hitchhiking.
They weren't doing drugs late at night in uh a questionable part of town, like a warehouserave situation.
They were in a place where you were supposed to be able to just safely wander from houseto house, doors unlocked, parents feeling good about their kids going to college in a

(42:29):
safe, small town.
Nothing happened there.
think that's part of it as well.
with that, there is also this aspect where I feel like when something like this breaks ina period of time we're in, where we're so oversaturated, we talk about it all the time,
like media oversaturation, is we kind of take possession of these very true events and weco-opt them and we make stories out of them to amuse ourselves.

(42:59):
Like the folks that decided that they should dox
Hunter Johnson because they were sure that he was up to something because he didn't havethe type of reaction they felt was normal.
Yeah, guy that, as it turned out, was kind of friendly with the girls.

(43:21):
Yeah, they're trying to find him.
They're convinced that he must be at fault.
And then, of course, Dylan and Bethany living in the house.
They're still getting it.
You people are still critiquing them and yeah, judging their choices and...
it reminds me of, you know, those people that are like, well, you know, here's what Iwould have done in that situation if my friends were being murdered.

(43:46):
I wouldn't have done that.
I would have done X, Y, and Z.
It's like the people watching the UFC.
We'll see what he did wrong.
Yeah, what he did wrong there is this, what I would have done, dude fucking eating chickenwings, can't walk to the fridge without.
being out of breath.
What I would have done is this.

(44:08):
Please tell me.
Yeah, you're you're you're you've got it figured out.
Roman Coliseum.
mean, it's all very like, right, like watching a public hanging.
There's that element of like, you know, excitement around getting the getting theinformation, em you know, like, I'm thinking now just not even about the general public,

(44:33):
but about like the amateur journalists on social media, who would go out to the sites andwho would, you know,
point fingers at different people and all for clicks and likes and exposure for them.
Maybe some genuine curiosity, maybe some, you know, whatever reporters have when they'rekind of going after the story, that sort of like, maybe there's some of that in there, but

(44:58):
it does seem, it seemed like opportunistic for a lot of these people who were, right,making this a way to have a platform and
ruining people's lives in the process.
Hunter and, what, Emily?
Is it Emily?
Emily, his girlfriend.
Yeah, Emily and Hunter, their whole relationship with social media sounds like it'schanged.

(45:24):
they're very private.
Their lives were totally derailed for a while.
Yeah, don't think people really think about the human cost of that kind of reporting.
No.
It reminds me, we always go back to this.
mean, I brought this up a few times with some of our episodes, but it brings to mind SusanSontag's both her books on photography and regarding the pain of others and the way that

(45:50):
we view images and information and how the question is, it, does it
create compassion and empathy in us or is it, uh you've used this expression before whereit's compassion fatigue.
You get so burnt out on seeing tragedy after tragedy that it just stops affecting you.

(46:14):
Yeah, this goes into our amygdala conversation about how the news and that kind ofreporting is designed to poke your amygdala to make you angry or scared.
Right.
And then it is exhausting.
Right, so it's like that is because that's where we get our clicks.
We're either gonna piss you off, which is why I sometimes get just frustrated and angry,just seeing other people frustrated and angry online or scare you, which is what happens

(46:40):
whenever anyone says, uh you know, we're due for another earthquake.
And I'm like, and we're coming.
Yeah, it's like, ah so we're either frightened or we're enraged.
And it's interesting because that is essentially when you look at it like a sociopath or apsychopath, they can really only ever feel either frightened for their own safety or

(47:10):
angry.
There's no compassion, there is no empathy, there's no love.
And it's almost like it's stirring that in us.
And so we do things like observe
someone else's tragedy as entertainment, amusement, or how can I benefit from this?
How can I get something out of this?

(47:33):
And also it brings that out in the viewer.
And then they do things like, you know, write mean comments on posts or threaten people orharass poor Kayleigh Gonzalves' mother.
I know, I heard about that.
Yeah, they won't let it, it's funny to them.
It's amusing.
And usually the reason for like when someone is just mean, you know, this goes back to uson and on because it's so relevant to everything now with social media.

(48:02):
When uh I'll look at the comments, like someone is putting on like a pretty dress or hasdone her hair and there's a comment, you're ugly.
Ugh.
oh
It's what's that for, right?
It's to see how she reacts.
It's also like, yeah, it's funny because we talked about the parallel process.
There's a psychopathic event, and then you have all the psychopaths coming out of thewoodwork.

(48:27):
Their inner psychopath shows up because there's no, we have anonymity, right?
We don't have to be responsible for what we say.
It doesn't have any consequences socially to say what we want to.
And right, I think some people, there is a sadistic glee in harming someone with yourwords online.
Right.
You feel powerful.
You feel.

(48:47):
I don't know.
I feel like in some ways people feel divorced from themselves, like their usual socialselves.
They're kind of like in that context, that context creates, it pulls for bad behaviorbecause there aren't really that many contingencies on your behavior, right?
Like, what's the punishment for that?

(49:09):
The reward is people laugh, they like, they, right?
You get lots of reinforcement for being a
dick online, but what are the consequences?
Especially if you have an anonymous account.
So yeah, like, oof, it is psychopathic, the way people behave.
Yeah, it's it's uh I think about how you know when a killer you know, like a Ted Bundy islike, you know torturing a woman and See seeing her reaction it is it is to to gauge her

(49:47):
reaction a lot of times when when when when people torture and they talk about it with youknow early early signs of a uh
of the serial killers, like torture of animals.
And it's to see the reaction, to see pain and fear.
And I think about that, you know, like when they tell you like, don't feed the trolls,don't give them what they want, which is to see you hurting, to see you angry, to see you

(50:12):
upset, and this kind of arousal that they get from it.
And of course, you you and I were talking about like, there are these online accounts thatare, you know, praising.
Brian Coburger, like thinking that he is the bee's knees for doing this.
They deserved it.
These girls deserved it.
know, all hail the king, Brian Coburger.

(50:34):
And then of course you got some of these women that think he's hot and they want to bewith him.
And so this reaction coming out and it's frightening to see, although I was wondering, Iwas going to ask you, we see these reactions.
These guys that are holding him up is somehow like he's a martyr now, right?

(50:57):
For the cause.
This goes to the question of what makes someone a Brian Coburger?
What made Brian Coburger the way that he is?
And is going into, let's say a Reddit thread or a forum and worshiping him.

(51:19):
Can that make a killer or not?
Is it that easy to kill someone if you're not prone to that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Like is there a legitimate threat that other people will become like him or would theyalready have to have those components in place to do that?

(51:42):
That's a question.
Because I'd like to think it's not that easy, right?
Yeah, I think uh there's a lot of nerd rage out there.
And I think that's the in-cell archetype thing that people sometimes talk about with him.
I do think that social media is a radicalizing component that's very, like if it didn'texist, then there are people who wouldn't be radicalized potentially, right?

(52:16):
Should we get into a little bit about his psychology and talk a little bit about whatleads a person to do this and then prevention stuff?
Sure.
Yeah, let's do that.
So we talked about this a lot because it's interesting, right?
It's a lot of speculation in true crime.

(52:37):
And we do speculate a lot, which is fine, right?
I think it's about trying to understand.
and trying to see if there's a way that we could intervene earlier and have less of this.
Because I mean, you know, I have clients who are, I have lot of clients my age and someolder, and I don't have a lot of people in their 20s and early 30s.

(53:03):
But the people I have who are in their 20s are afraid to go to movie theaters because theygrew up during a time where
people got shot up in movie theaters, and people got shot up in schools, and people got,so that is there, we didn't grow up with that.
There are a lot of more mass killings these days than it seems like there were in thepast.

(53:26):
And a lot of them are committed by young men.
So Brian Koberger, arguably, we don't know if he set out to do a mass killing.
He might've just wanted to target one person, but.
I do wonder about the influence of, because we talk about political radicalization, youtalk about like maybe religious radicalization that happens in these communities.

(53:50):
And I think people can be radicalized to adopt a mindset of entitlement and of especiallypeople who are vulnerable like Brian Koberger.
And I'll say more about that, but you know.
He's kind of like a socially awkward person, a socially isolated person, can't make itwork with his peers in terms.

(54:13):
I think he had some friends, but I don't think he had any super close long-termrelationships.
um He is diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder,developmental coordination disorder, which I have no idea what that is.
But you can imagine, if you think about mirroring, right?
We go through the world, and we see ourselves through other people's eyes.

(54:33):
If people look at you with contempt and disdain and confusion and disgust or they'recreeped out by you, you know that.
You get that.
And you start to form this image of yourself.
He was chubby, overweight kid.

(54:54):
Pretty significantly.
um Apparently he, if the book is accurate with this, he was a good like 100 poundsoverweight, which is significant.
Had to have been hard.
Totally.
So you have this person who is terribly isolated, feels like a weirdo probably, and goesonline and meets a bunch of other people who...

(55:23):
So you think about holding the problem as me.
I'm the problem.
I have shame about who I am.
I know that people are creeped out by me.
I can tell by how they respond to me.
I've had...
clients come into my practice saying this stuff to me, you know, like, and it's sad, youknow, because nobody wants to feel that way.

(55:44):
So they go to these communities online, like the sort of incel communities or whatevercommunities he was part of.
And it's a bunch of angry, socially isolated, feeling the blackpilled, that black pillideology of like, you know,

(56:04):
giving up, like nature is what it is and I'm on the losing end of this stick because ofthe equation because I live in this culture.
And so they flip it from there's something wrong with me to the problem is outside of me.
It's women.
And anger feels good, right?
You're no longer in that like I'm a piece of crap place.

(56:27):
You're like, no, actually.
I'm entitled to sex.
I'm entitled to relationships.
I'm entitled to these things.
And women are the problem.
And then there's this glorification.
They even do body count stuff, where they're like, yeah, Elliot Rodger had this many.
And I want to go out and kill.
And they share their fantasies about going out and killing a bunch of women.

(56:50):
And
It's camaraderie.
It reinforces things.
It changes your perspective.
So you start to see the world in a different way.
And suddenly, it's a relief to sort of like, the problem's not me.
It's the world.
And so I think without that, if there was no landing place with a toxic, distortedideology that was being promoted by a bunch of other people who share your experience

(57:18):
emotionally, and I think that would
we wouldn't have such a big problem, which is why I think the intervention has to come bearound some of the intervention for kids who have, are maybe vulnerable to this kind of
thing, has to really center around human connection and getting real human connection andhaving real relationships in the real world versus going online to these communities to

(57:48):
get that.
But that's hard for parents.
I mean, I can't, you know?
oh
well that and that's the thing.
so with with Brian Coburger, I mean, if you want to look at there being warning signs, thewarning signs with him look like a lot of other warning signs, right?

(58:09):
Like when he was little, he was weird.
He had friends, but he was doing things like breaking into houses and he was doing a lotof that kind of like anti-social personality disorder early stuff like like
breaking into homes, burglaring homes at a young age.
Which is, yeah, it's huge.

(58:30):
And then later on, he, you his dad, you see his parents kind of, his parents are stillkind of mysterious.
I wonder if we'll ever learn anything about them because I mean, his childhood stuff, theonly information I could find was in the book.
you know, the dad took him to a boxing gym.

(58:54):
saying like, hey, you my son needs to, you know, he needs to learn some self-defense.
He gets bullied, but also, you know, he wants to lose some weight and get in shape andstuff.
And Brian, you know, was going every day and he committed to it, working hard.
He was losing weight.
He eventually got really thin, but he was committed to that.

(59:16):
He would show up and, you know, and do his thing.
And I guess some of the people at the gym were like, hey, Brian, like they got, they were,
supportive of him.
And then he had a bad influence friend that he started doing heroin with.
So he had a heroin problem.
And then he was stealing to kind of feed his habit.

(59:37):
Do you remember how old he was when he was doing the heroin and stealing to feed thehabit?
don't remember.
Teenage.
Okay.
That's like big stuff.
That's like part of the diagnostic criteria for...
He was shooting it up too.
Like I didn't know that's wild when you're, when you're shooting.
don't know if he started out shooting it, but it points to this very nihilistic bent thatI mean, you, you, you're going to see, I don't think there's a single serial killer that

(01:00:02):
doesn't have that, that kind of that nihilistic bent to them where that it's sort of likethey, know, they don't value life clearly, but that also means they don't really value
their own.
Right.
Yeah.
I just assumed he was like snorting it or smoking it or something.
Um, don't know if you could smoke heroin.
Can you smoke heroin?
Yeah, you can.
You can't, Yeah, I just assumed that was a thing, but he wore long sleeves to hide histrack marks.

(01:00:27):
So like they had signs, right?
Big signs.
Because they knew he had a heroin addiction.
They put him in rehab.
He did well.
He got off heroin.
clearly did well enough to be in a PhD program at the end, you know, when all is said anddone.
But no, but that's the thing where it's like, maybe, just maybe, you know, the parentsare, you know, they're wringing their hands about their child who is, you know, uh very,

(01:00:52):
very odd, but like what came first, right?
Was he odd because he was bullied?
Or was he bullied because he was odd?
Was he bullied because he was an overweight kid?
Did he turn to heroin and a bad influence friend because of the fact that he had a toughtime, tough go of it as like a little kid?

(01:01:13):
And then suddenly, okay, he's still a little odd, but now he's in a master's program.
Now he got a uh letter of recommendation to a really solid PhD program from this likeworld renowned professor and author, the one that wrote the book on.

(01:01:34):
BTK.
Ramslyn, yeah.
uh She writes him a shining glowing letter of recommendation to this PhD program.
Now as his parents, I'd be like, oh, wow, so glad he's doing well now.
Yeah, you'd know.
You'd probably, you'd know.
You'd know your kids suffering.

(01:01:55):
Because I mean, honestly, the first thing I learned when I was working with kids as atherapist in my internship, I had this kid, we had kids who had a really hard time.
m And the first thing my supervisor said was she's like, let's get this kid some friends.
And I think they must have known.

(01:02:16):
You know, he's not going on dates.
He's not.
He's odd.
He's probably having anger with them.
He said that in one of his little things he wrote online when he was like a teen, that hehad no remorse with his family and he was mean to them.
So they must have seen his angry outbursts at some point in the family.

(01:02:36):
so like behavioral issues were probably obvious, but not enough.
They were probably relieved to see that he was functioning in one sphere of his life, likeschool.
But he was not functioning well and the others.
oh Anything but school, seems like.
But yeah, I mean, of course, you cling to anything, right?
You're like, OK, thank God.

(01:02:57):
Yeah.
Because I don't think that your next thought is what if he, you know, slaughters fouruniversity students with a fucking K-Bar knife.
And that's the thing, like that's the thing we're talking about is like the pathway togetting there.
It's, I guess the question is like, well, even born psychopaths don't end up doing thiskind of stuff all the time.

(01:03:21):
And that's a huge, but he had deficits in his social functioning and rather than teach himhow to function better socially, or whether they be motivated to learn how to function
better socially, he went on these communities and
made the problem someone else.

(01:03:41):
But I think, yeah, early intervention, not just for like, because you think your kid'sgoing to be a psychopath, but because if your kid is not functioning well socially, it's
really important to intervene there.
It's really, right?
No, and that's the thing, know, I understand with the best of intentions, I'm sure his dadlike walked him into that boxing gym and, you know, but like in addition to helping him

(01:04:08):
feel better about himself as far as like his physical body and to be able to protecthimself from bullies, he needed therapy bad.
Like he needed counseling.
He needed to be able to open up to somebody that.
you know, has no skin in the game, right?
Isn't a parent, isn't a friend, isn't a peer or even a teacher, but someone who is thereto talk to him about, confidentially, about whatever it is he wants to talk about.

(01:04:37):
Yeah, there's a therapist I know who is on the autism spectrum.
And he did a training once in one of my internships.
And he came in and I was struck by something he said.
He's like, the best thing you can do for a kid who has autism or is on the autism spectrumis introduce them to an adult on the autism spectrum.
And I wonder if maybe he wasn't diagnosed for a long time.

(01:05:00):
was about to ask, did you find any information about when he was diagnosed with it?
Cause it's very possible that they never even, because he was, it's that, well, he was 28.
I uh mean, now he's 28, I believe.

(01:05:21):
I'm not sure.
He's in his twenties.
He's in his twenties, but it could be that they just, they didn't know that he was.
They never saw anything that indicated to them that he might need it.
But a therapist might be able to figure it out.
And he clearly needed a therapist being bullied and having a tough go of it to the pointthat his father wanted him to learn self-defense.

(01:05:49):
So yeah, it's a tough one because also
I saw someone post about how the red flags were there and how he was treating the women inthe program that he was a teaching assistant for at Washington State, that he was really

(01:06:15):
dismissive to the point where it disturbed the female students enough that they werereporting him for being incredibly, uh just clearly misogynistic towards them.
uh
This one woman is like, well, that's a red flag right there.
And I'm like, that he's gonna be a killer?
I mean, he's a pig.

(01:06:35):
Yeah, he's an asshole.
But if there's plenty of misogynistic assholes I've encountered that I'm sure didn't go onto murder people.
So I don't know that that would be the red flag.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Yeah, because people are going back in reviewing and write.
It's interesting.

(01:06:58):
think about some people I've met in my life em who I've spent time with them andimmediately been like, holy shit.
the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Like this person is a psychopath.
And I don't know that we can always tell.

(01:07:19):
I don't know that we can always tell what someone's going to do.
But it's interesting because as soon as the cops got his car,
They got the car and they went through the list of people who had the car, his car.
And then they found him based on that.
And they looked at him.
They looked at his profile.

(01:07:39):
And they kind of thought, this is our guy.
Because I think he presents as that.
Right?
Because some people were skeeved out by him and found him generally to be really creepy,argumentative.
He's not just a sad, isolated guy.
He's not a Jeffrey Dahmer.
Yeah, he had anger.

(01:08:00):
He had all this stuff, the haughty attitude, the power trips he had with his studentswriting those like paragraphs long critiques of their work.
he couldn't keep his, he could keep it together for school, but he couldn't keep ittogether as a teacher, you know, in a.
Exactly.
And yeah, it's like your slip is showing, buddy.

(01:08:22):
But.
Yeah, so, but right, there are a lot of people going back and being like, I should have,but I think he could easily have gone under the radar and he did for a long time in a lot
of contexts.
So that's a good point.
Yeah, that's the thing.
It's like, if you're going to make that a red flag, it's a red flag about him being adouche.
But I don't necessarily think that that was the clue that he was going to kill people.

(01:08:48):
like save for, I mean, the only solution it seems to hoping to prevent future.
murderers like this.
It's honestly advice for anyone who is going through a hard time, which is, you know,getting help for your kid, right?

(01:09:10):
Getting help for your kid that is struggling if that's the thing that's going to lead themto do this.
But then we're also assuming that his, his, this murderous rampage he went on was becausehe never had.
female attention from the types of girls that he wanted.

(01:09:31):
We don't know that.
Like, do you know what I'm saying?
Imagine he ends up with a girlfriend.
Is that gonna stop him?
It might've.
I really think that these kinds of...
I think the social isolation piece and the lack of intimate relationships.

(01:09:52):
I think about BTK, who was harboring all these sexual fantasies.
it just feels different.
I don't know for sure, but it feels different to me.
It feels like an Elliot Rodger versus a BTK.
Or like the original Night Stalker.

(01:10:14):
Ramirez.
or the original Night Stalker, the Calif, what's his name?
The Golden Stake Yeah, the Golden Stake Killer.
So like where they're fitting in and they've got a family and they're like whatever, butthey've got these fantasies that they want to act out and they're split in that way they
can go out and do.
His more feels like,

(01:10:35):
pointed, like just one direction, like a narrower focus.
Well, yeah, and also about nerd rage, basically.
Also about entitlement, grandiosity, power.
And he's an archetype, and they're an archetype, the girls.
And everybody in that house who was, Kayleigh was stabbed 34 times, and Xana was stabbed50 times.

(01:11:02):
All the girls had facial wounds and lacerations, and Ethan didn't.
No, he was in the way.
Like I think that the one thing we can say, cause we don't know if it's still, we maynever know if Coburger was, went in there with the aim of killing one specific person or
all of them.
And my theory is that he went in there to kill girls and Ethan happened to be.

(01:11:33):
Yeah, was a symbolic and it did feel very sexual with the stabbing.
yeah, I will die on that hill.
People are arguing that it's not sexual, but.
My question, honestly, this is so gross and forgive me viewers and listeners for sayingthis.
I can't help but wonder.

(01:11:56):
I'm thinking the same thing I yes.
ah
if he derived that kind of sexual gratification from doing that.
But it's so interesting what you say.
And again, I think that's what speaks to this almost, the kind of cinematic narrative ofthis, which is he was an archetype, murdering archetypes.

(01:12:23):
Like this symbol, I mean, look at them.
beautiful girls and young and sorority like.
Exactly.
You you have Ethan the Chad, you know, he's this big, strong, strapping, athletic,handsome dude.
He's got his girlfriend, probably never, ever struggled in the dating department.

(01:12:44):
And then you've got Brian, who's an outsider, who was probably picked on by peopleresembling this kind of like popular, it's a popular house, popular girls.
Yeah, girls were bullying him.
They were the ones that mostly bullied him in elementary school, I think.
That's what someone said.
Yeah, it makes so much sense.

(01:13:04):
But yeah, it is a thing with, at the point that he was on his way to college, it was toolate, I think.
I think that any kind of possibility of intervention, I mean, who knows?
But at that point, it was too late.
At that point, what you do, think, because it has to do with the architecture of thebrain, developmentally, it's just better when you intervene early.

(01:13:32):
The earlier you can get in there before they're fully formed in terms of their braindevelopment and their life, their habits and whatever, you can really do a lot more.
But when you get in there with someone like him, where the dye is cast, you're basicallyworking with them around
changing behaviors because they don't work for them.

(01:13:54):
Don't kill people because you'll end up in prison.
That kind of work versus work that could really shape them in a different direction.
Which is why I think social isolation and bullying and that kind of thing is like, if youcan't get your kid to go to therapy as a parent, then you should go to therapy.
And you should learn strategies to work with your kid around those issues.

(01:14:18):
Because
It's an incre- I mean, it stays with people forever, right?
It's like when you're forming your sense of self, there are people, you know, you werebullied.
I mean, it's just awful.
I still have nightmares about stuff.
And sometimes I will have fantasies of going back in time and being myself with my brainnow in my 12-year-old body and just standing up for myself.

(01:14:48):
It doesn't fucking go away.
And I don't think I probably got it as bad as Brian Co- Well, who knows?
He also was operating with a...
on the spectrum and who knows what else, obsessive compulsive disorder, all these thingsthat like his brain was probably never quieted.
then add to that this.

(01:15:10):
What's the, for everybody, describe what visual snow is.
So visual snow would drive me crazy.
It's like tinnitus.
I know people say tinnitus, but I refuse.
Tinnitus, yes.
So I'm like, OK, good.
I also say turmeric and February.
I do too.

(01:15:31):
Yes.
Tim makes fun of me.
So right.
So he had visual snow, which is freaking infuriating.
And he wrote on this forum about it.
And it's you see snow in your vision all the time.
Like TV static almost.
Yeah, like TV static.
OK.
Like, and I don't know if it comes and I mean, I know it comes and goes.

(01:15:52):
know people can have it sometimes and not other times, but it was maddening for him.
And he had some people just accept it and can deal with it.
But he really was disturbed by this.
So you have that irritant going constantly.
Right.
You already have his high, strong, rigid OCD kinds of uh behaviors, obsessive, obsessivethinking.

(01:16:15):
He was tormented, it seems like, just absolutely tormented from the inside and the outsideand did not learn that he could do, there was something that he could be doing that could
make his life better, I think.
I don't think he ever, or maybe he's a psychopath, maybe he's a born psychopath and hejust like had that too going for him.

(01:16:37):
I wonder, you like you had pointed out and stuff, which a lot of you listeners, viewersmay already know this, but not all psycho killers are murderers.
Like not all sociopaths are killers, not all psychopaths are killers.
And we've talked about this before.

(01:16:57):
You find a lot of psychopaths, lot of psychopaths are CEOs, surgeons, pilots.
It's essentially
just in absence, know, that you don't, you don't, and a lot of them are parents that don'tgo on and murder their kids or wives or abuse them.
Like, so it could be that even being a born psychopath, had there been some sort of earlyintervention, not again, because his parents didn't have a crystal ball and could

(01:17:25):
anticipate what would happen, but just some sort of early intervention for the shit he wasdealing with at an early age.
Perhaps, maybe it wouldn't have got him away from being a psychopath, but it could havehelped him find a coping mechanism that would allow him to at least have some kind of a uh

(01:17:52):
relief of whatever it was that was constantly churning on in his head, giving him uh toolsto manage and eventually to have a friend group.
maybe be able to date, find a way in the world.
to do more pro-social kinds of behaviors.
And it's funny, as you're talking, I'm like, we all have this.

(01:18:17):
We all have a mind that is insane, that produces thoughts all the time that we have nocontrol of, and memories.
And fear is like our default mode, I think, as humans.
And that's evolutionary.
And to live in a different way requires a lot of skill and effort and practice.

(01:18:38):
He's dealing with what we were dealing with, what we all are dealing with on a different,maybe a different level with different, know, amygdala, different amygdala.
Maybe they have feelings psychopaths, but they're just don't have the same degree offeelings.
eh You know, they can feel lonely.
They can feel angry and they might, you know, there might be some rigidity, but yeah, it'sexactly what you're saying.

(01:19:00):
It's like, how do we, so if you can take a kid and you can connect them with what'simportant to them, like I,
that mentioned before, you know, my consultant hat once worked with a client who was asociopath, but they knew that and they knew they wanted a normal life, quote unquote
normal life.
They wanted a family, they wanted kids, and what they were doing in their life was notgetting that for them.

(01:19:23):
And they had to learn the skill of empathy and they had to practice empathy and they hadto learn what that was.
And it's a cognitive emotional process, but they can have cognitive empathy.
and
Right, awareness of what empathy is.
Even if it doesn't come naturally to them, they can recognize this.
It reminds me a little bit of Dexter.

(01:19:45):
Yes, exactly.
could have shaped him not to be a killer, I think.
But then we wouldn't have had an amazing fucking series.
But like you see him being like, ooh, what does a person do in a situation like this?
And then he models the behavior.
And this isn't to say that who knows, right?

(01:20:07):
We'll never know.
If Brian, if there had been early intervention.
Again, this isn't a thing where parents need to go like, I need to do something so that Idon't eventually have a serial killer child or whatever, but it's just, okay, there's
these clearly these issues, which there were clear issues and they were helping him, buthe needed to fucking counseling.

(01:20:31):
He needed a therapist.
He needed a therapist who could maybe have sussed out some things.
you know what?
I think your kid should be screened for autism.
to see if he's on the spectrum and then go from there.
Again, I don't wanna feel like, I'm not saying that we're know-it-alls and that this wouldhave fixed him or that his parents didn't care.

(01:20:52):
I think they cared.
I mean, it seems that they did, also his sisters seem to be functioning just fine, butit's when we talk about how, and the compelling thing about cases like this is like
understanding it, also how,
What are things we could do if there was a way to prevent something like this?

(01:21:13):
And I think about along these lines, I don't know if you've ever seen the Ted Talk fromSue Klebold, who was Dylan Klebold's mom, one of the Columbine kids.
I just, have an enormous amount of...

(01:21:34):
compassion for this woman, man.
Like, I think about this with Brian Coburger's parents too, which is that the victims,holy fucking shit.
I think it goes without saying, but imagine you're the parent of the person who destroyedlives.
yeah, like I think when I, there's that picture, Brian Coburger's mom sobbing at his, umat his sentencing.

(01:21:56):
And I'm like, I don't know why she's crying.
I mean, I do.
Right?
But like, she lost her, she lost her son.
She lost her son probably a long time ago.
But in that moment, like, what do you do?
I raised a murderer.
And Sue Klebold, you know, she's doing her Ted talk.

(01:22:18):
I think it's a Ted talk that every parent should see, you know, because, you know, thebottom line is that she missed the signs and she's absolutely,
you know, aware of that.
missed the signs.
And no one taught them to her.
That's the thing.
It's like, if you don't know what they are, then how can you get them?

(01:22:40):
How can you find them?
Does she say that?
Does she know that too?
I mean, does she forgive herself?
I hope.
I think it's a journey for her.
think that, you know, because obviously the Columbine killer's parents, of course, wereattacked.
And I get it.
I get it.
You know, I absolutely understand how something like that happens, for sure.

(01:23:03):
But it's a thing where, beyond the fact that I'm sure she wishes she could have donethings differently to prevent that.
fucking tragedy from happening.
eh I think the bigger thing is, I think probably she wishes that she could have done whatshe needed to do to help her kid not, like whatever was happening that brought that on, if

(01:23:33):
there was a way.
But although I wanna say, I'd have to go back and refresh my memory, but I wanna say that,well, first of all, Dylan Klebold was,
Usually in something like that, there's a leader and there's a follower, and Dylan was afollower.
Eric Harris was the leader of that.

(01:23:53):
I don't want to get on that topic, but that's just an example of when you're a parent of afucking murderer.
And you can do everything, you can also do everything you possibly can and it can notchange things.
But, but yeah.
There's no way to know.
We'll never know if actually, or this kind of early intervention would have prevented thisfrom happening ah in Idaho or prevented Brian from doing, if not the crime in Idaho,

(01:24:20):
something else.
But it's something.
It's something.
This is, what a fucking, I wish for nothing but the best for the victims' families.
they find it.
friends.
And it's a thing, it's, you and I have both talked quite a bit about like the plea dealand how the Gonsalves are very unhappy with that.

(01:24:49):
They did not want it to be a plea deal.
They're very, very angry.
I get it.
It's justifiable anger.
And I also understand how the Chapens accept it.
the dad was like, look, he can't hurt anybody ever again.
And we're satisfied with that.

(01:25:10):
He can't hurt anyone ever again.
now that it's done, maybe the students and everyone can just go on with their lives, whichis what the Chapin's want.
then for...
The Consolvas is for the father, especially the way, you know, his with his his reaction.

(01:25:30):
He's he's he's furious.
But also, you know, his his daughter's face was bashed in.
I mean, his daughter, like.
I don't know how you come back from that.
And that is some of the discussion that you and I have had around true crime, like justthe kind of phenomenon of true crime and people's interest in it, that it feels

(01:26:00):
exploitative.
Sure, I think sometimes it is, like the way that TMZ treated this is there's such, I don'thave a high opinion of fucking TMZ, but.
you know, just getting into like the sensational aspects, I suppose.
But I'm really...
taken with how victims' families find their way through a tragedy and how they moveforward.

(01:26:32):
And I think that there's a lot to learn in watching them navigate their journey.
Just, mean, watching, feel bad saying that they want privacy, but just when they speak,when they share.
their experience when they share their lives and just seeing them handle it with dignityand grace.

(01:26:53):
I think there's a lot to learn and a lot to be inspired by being able to move forward whenyou've lost, when it feels like you've lost absolutely everything.
Yeah, I mean, all of us will lose everything and everyone we love at some point too.
And I always, feel like that's part of it too, is that it's just a very human experienceto lose people and things that we love.

(01:27:16):
yeah, and seeing them sort of survive and thrive, you know, like when they do.
positive things as a result, people do positive things as a result of a major tragedy.
There's something so like, I don't know, reparative about that or something.

(01:27:36):
There's some, there's, it's like hopeful and.
Yeah.
mean, look at Katie Meyer's law.
We did that episode on Katie Meyer, you know, hopefully we will never have anothersituation where a student athlete or a student is faced with something terrifying and
feels like they have no one to turn to or there's nothing for them.

(01:27:58):
We've got, you know, the Madison Holleran foundation that came after Madison Holleran'sdeath.
Yes.
So sweet.
my God.
Yeah.
So dude, how do you even end an episode like it's so hard guys.

(01:28:19):
Yeah, know it's like on what note.
Well, we wanted to, you know, it's a thing where we're always interested in hearing whatyou guys think, how you guys respond to tragedies such as this, what your attitudes are

(01:28:40):
about things like the ways in which we report on true crime, the ways in which we consumestuff.
And so please always, you know, we want this to be a community where you tell us things.
one listener, um, coach stuff who's so awesome, who always fight, like, I love it when sheweighs in on stuff because she has such a great perspective and experience as well.

(01:29:08):
Yes.
Thank you.
But, but yeah, it's, it, this is, it feels weird to not talk about the Idaho four casebecause it has been just in, in all our media for so long now.
And it finally has, has come to an end.
And so.
We're just always interested in the how and the why of things and um in all aspects, thehow and the why we consume this information, the how and the why these things happen.

(01:29:38):
And if there's a way to mitigate it, prevent it um moving forward if there is a way.
And we're obviously big proponents of mental health, especially Shannon.
and I've benefited from it.
I don't think I'd be here if I didn't have early intervention uh when I was younger.

(01:30:00):
You're the person who um basically got me to go to therapy for the first time.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I was like, therapy?
I played a small role in you becoming a therapist.
I'm to blame.
the one to blame.

(01:30:22):
No, I love it.
and you're an awesome therapist too.
Thank you.
I mean, I'm biased because you're like my friend.
That means a lot to me.
No, I always go to you.
I'm like, what about this?
And you're like, well, there's this philosophy.
Pucci, come on up.
I think you could be a therapist, but I, you know.

(01:30:44):
I feel like I would just always be anxious about my clients.
Let's tell people about.
Let's end on our nonprofit note.
Yes.
I'll, I'm, yeah, you take it away.
Me?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, Shannon, if it isn't completely obvious that we are animal lovers.
uh We love our animals.

(01:31:05):
Shannon rescued Ginger.
uh I rescued, or I got uh Bruno who's exposing himself to you guys right now here.
Show them his balls.
I'm just kidding.
that he's from a rescue and we love animals and we were trying to think of what we coulddo with our love of animals and the fact that the gentleman that was fostering Bruno, I

(01:31:37):
talk to him pretty regularly and he'll send me pictures of different, mean, it's mostlyFrenchies that he works with because there is such a crisis with French bulldogs being
overbred and then dumped, but really any dog.
but he'll reach out to me and I was saying like, man, if there was only something we coulddo.
so Shannon and I realized that what if we started a nonprofit where we help supportfosters?

(01:32:01):
know, obviously we encourage people to adopt, don't shop, but we also support fostersbecause a lot of times folks will want to foster, but they don't have the means.
They think, well, I'd love to, but like that's, it's expensive.
know, there's, dog food, there's bedding, there's toys, there's all kinds of stuff.
And a lot of times the rescues are overwhelmed just with their immediate needs.

(01:32:24):
so we decided to start a nonprofit where we support fosters financially and help them withsupplies.
em At present, I usually will pull together supplies and take them to this guy, Mike,who's amazing.
He's such a loving dude.
And he at any given time has like seven dogs that he's taking care of.

(01:32:46):
So that's really hard to manage.
m
And so, you know, we're hoping to be able to get support, grants, donations, et cetera, tomake it possible to encourage people to foster and to help them with vet bills, you know,
because also sometimes there's special needs animals that, you know, people are reluctantto help them or to foster because of the bills associated with rescues.

(01:33:16):
that is what...
we have done and we will update you.
We are waiting for approval now, right?
That's kind of what we're doing.
But yeah, that is the positive note that we'll end on.
We'll have more information, of course, as it comes.
So.
uh
Follow us on Instagram at uh secret passage podcast on X at secret pass pod and.

(01:33:47):
Tick tock.
Yes.
Is what are we secret passage podcast?
Yes.
And, yeah, we finally got a tick tock and, we also have our Patreon, which we would loveit if you would subscribe.
Um, if you, if you pay to subscribe.
If you do the paid subscription, get bonus episodes and videos, et cetera.

(01:34:07):
Yes, we have some free content.
Yeah, there's some free content too if you guys just want to join but not pay, whatever.
Yeah, but thank you guys as always for listening.
listening.
We'll see you next time.
Bye.