October 13, 2025 • 30 mins
True “job security” as guaranteed lifetime employment was never a reality, though the perception of it was stronger in previous generations.
In this episode, Kendall Berg sits down with career strategist Renata Bernarde to talk about what it really takes to stay relevant when the rules of work keep changing. From quiet layoffs to invisible promotion ceilings, they dig into why waiting to be “discovered” is no longer a strategy but a trap.
Renata shares how thinking like the CEO of your own career changes everything: the way you network, the way you show up online, and the way you plan for the future version of you.
Together, she and Kendall dive into the power of self-agency, the networking realities behind senior-level hiring, and how to plan your career with your 70-year-old self in mind.
Whether you’re feeling stuck, restless, or ready to pivot, this conversation will help you build the kind of career that lasts no matter what the market does next.
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About Your Host: That Career Coach, Kendall Berg
Kendall Berg is a career coach and creator, helping ambitious professionals master the unspoken rules of corporate life. Through Secrets of the Career Game, she shares honest conversations and practical tools to help you communicate clearly, lead confidently, and navigate work with strategy — not stress.
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Follow her on Instagram: @thatcareercoach_
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Build out the tools you need to navigate the corporate game: — Self Driven Mastermind
About Renata Bernarde
Renata Bernarde is a career coach and job-hunting expert who helps experienced and senior professionals design successful career strategies, secure new roles, and navigate career transitions with confidence. She is the host of The Job Hunting Podcast and the founder of a coaching practice supporting corporate, nonprofit, and government professionals worldwide. She also lectures on career planning and design at Monash University and is an Enterprise Fellow at the University of Melbourne. With a background as a former CEO and executive leader, Renata brings practical insight, empathy, and strategic thinking to job search and career planning for experienced professionals.
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kendall Berg (00:00):
I'm not in the job search, but I feel bored.
Maybe I feel burnt out.
Maybe I feel stuck.
There's no upward progression in my current role.
What kind of questions should they be asking themselves before they decide to enter the job market?
How do they even evaluate if that's the right next step for them?
Renata Bernarde (00:18):
Yes, it's a privilege to be in that situation where you still have a job and an income and you can think about your career in a way that's more creative.
Right?
Kendall Berg (00:28):
Right.
Renata Bernarde (00:28):
When you go.
When you become unemployed, when you're laid off, you go into fight and flight mode and your brain acts differently.
You present yourself differently, even your tone of voice, your body language.
And recruiters and HR professionals, they.
They see people like you all the time.
So even though you may not think that you're presenting differently, they will know.
Kendall Berg (00:49):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game.
So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets cleverly hidden to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing.
On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster.
(01:14):
Hello and welcome back to the pod.
Today we have a fabulous guest for you.
Renata Bernarde is joining us.
She is a career coach and a job hunting expert who helps experienced and senior professionals design successful career strategies, secure new roles, and navigate career transitions with confidence, which could not be more appropriate given the state of today's job market.
(01:37):
So thank you so much for Renata for coming on the episode.
Renata Bernarde (01:40):
Oh, thank you for having me.
It's wonderful to be here.
Kendall Berg (01:43):
So you talk a lot about, like, the hidden rules of job hunting.
How did you end up a job hunting coach?
Right.
What was your journey kind of to the point that you're at now?
Renata Bernarde (01:55):
Oh, yeah, no, my journey is awesome.
I did a lot of the wrong things for a long time.
I started working really young and I was.
I have a WhatsApp group with some childhood friends and we talk every day and they were just mentioning yesterday.
Remember when Renata had a job at an architectural firm and she was 14 and everybody was like, what?
(02:20):
Yes, I forgot about that.
So I started working really young and I always have the.
I always had the ambition to earn my own money.
That's.
That's the honest truth.
But I made so many mistakes, you know, trying to do too much too soon and trying to achieve too much without having the experience.
(02:40):
And I definitely never Understood the recruitment part of things up until, I don't know, 10 years ago.
I'm 53 now, so it took me a long time.
And I started taking notes, Kendall.
Literally I started taking notes and writing things down because I knew that eventually I wanted to share them with others.
Kendall Berg (02:59):
I love that.
And you and I have chatted before.
I've come on your pod as well.
And there's so many similarities in our story of making the wrong decisions, figuring out how to navigate it, and then being like, would anyone else, like, help?
Because it's it is so challenging.
And especially as times change, as the job market evolves, it feels like it gets harder, you know, in the.
(03:24):
If you go back to my first job, I think I walked in and handed someone a paper resume and said I'd really like a job.
And they called me and I interviewed and it was great.
Then we moved towards job boards.
Right.
The indeeds of the world posting jobs for us.
And now we say that job boards aren't the main way to land the role.
(03:44):
So what should ambitious professionals, what should they be doing instead?
Now, given that the job market climate has kind of shifted and changed, if they want to land those ideal roles.
Renata Bernarde (03:55):
Yes, I think that you're right.
Things keep changing and they have changed.
I think to ensure that we understand the need to take control.
If you do not have self agency these days, you're stuffed.
Real literally, you have to put yourself out there.
(04:17):
And we are probably the last group of professionals.
By we, I mean white collar workers, people that work behind a desk in front of a computer.
We're the last people to have to embrace that.
If you have people in your family that are plumbers, carpenters, brickworkers, artists, they know how to sell themselves because if they don't do proposals and do quotes for clients and go after, even dentists and doctors have to sell themselves, right?
(04:48):
Otherwise they don't get that surgery.
People will shop around and find somebody else.
I don't know what happened to us.
We just became so complacent and we just think that once we have a job that's it, the employer will take care of us.
Nope, they will not.
My husband was made redundant a couple of years ago and his manager didn't know that he had been made redundant.
(05:10):
Right.
Decisions are not done at that level anymore.
They are higher up.
So you have to take control of your career.
That's the key message.
Kendall Berg (05:20):
It's so great that you bring this up because, you know, we've talked before and I've talked about this on the pod before as well, that you have to have this CEO mindset.
And I was actually talking to a client earlier this week.
You'll appreciate it.
She was like, I hate sales.
I feel like I should have taken a sales role in college, but I hate it.
And now I feel like I'm in sales.
(05:41):
And I'm like, you are.
But what you're selling is you and your job and your relevance and why you should be promoted and why your work is important.
Like, we all end up in sales at some point because you're selling to your leadership, your value, frankly.
And I love the way that you titled it self agency.
It's not just self advocacy, it's not just a willingness to do the job.
(06:07):
It's that true ownership of self, of like, I'm gonna make it happen and if I don't go make it happen, nobody's gonna make it happen for me.
Renata Bernarde (06:15):
Yes.
And look, even if you're listening to us and you are employed and you're thinking, oh, you know, that's really not my case, sometimes a shift happens and your manager goes somewhere else, is promoted or leaves the organization and that's enough for everything else to crumble.
So you need to really think about your future in a different way.
(06:37):
And our brains are wired for a different world.
Our brain is not wired for 20, 25 and beyond.
It's wired for us living in a cave and being afraid of cybertruck tigers.
And we don't have built into us, most of us, this thing about thinking about 20 years from now.
(06:59):
We have trouble thinking about climate change.
We have trouble thinking about how to, you know, do some end poverty, end hunger.
We don't invest in the right things because we're very short term wired.
Right.
And career planning and design falls under that.
It's not as, I mean, you may think it's not as important as climate change, but you know what I mean?
(07:21):
Like we don't think about how are we going to live when we are 70 years old.
And what I tell people is to think about it from this perspective.
Think about that 70 year old as being your grandmother.
It will be you one day.
You know, how is she going to live?
What sort of life do you want her to have become her best friend and take care of her from your health all the way to your career, what you eat, what you drink, how you sleep, take care of her.
Kendall Berg (07:52):
Yes.
And it's easy to think.
It's so far away and there's so many studies on this and we're not going to get too far off on the financial topic, but there's so many studies that show, you know, the average individual isn't saving for retirement.
The average individual isn't saving full stop.
The average individual doesn't have a plan when they're done working.
And you have to think ahead with these things, with the decisions that you're making now to strategically set yourself up for that.
(08:17):
And one of the things I tell a lot of my younger clients is I'm like, you should be trying all sorts of jobs when you're younger and figuring out what you like.
You don't have to be in a vertical.
I hate the phrase climb the ladder because it implies you only move straight up.
And I feel like that's not the path for most people.
(08:39):
So if people are trying to do this, if they're trying to look at how to make strategies, like what mistakes are they making now that are keeping them from making grandmother me or grandfather me happy at age 70?
Renata Bernarde (08:54):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
I've heard you say that thing about the ladder, and you're absolutely right.
And I remember many years ago having a little ladder in my PowerPoint presentation.
When I heard you say that, I'm like, I shouldn't have that letter.
You know, if you've been a client for a long time, you've seen it, like in one of my job hunting webinars, that leather.
Oh, gosh, I heard it from you.
(09:16):
Not to use it again.
Okay.
So the things that really people don't think about, and it's our fault, because we as corporate professionals, we don't talk about is the amount of time things take to happen, especially when you're unemployed.
Right?
So when you're unemployed and you're not looking for a clerical job or a job at McDonald's, it will take weeks, if not months, will take months for you to find a job.
(09:46):
The higher up you are and the more experienced you are.
It's a pyramid in an organization.
There are less people at the top.
And I work with clients that are very experienced.
So we don't talk about that.
We just go on LinkedIn and see people posting that they just got a new job.
And we think, why didn't we get this job?
Well, you didn't get this job because you haven't been on LinkedIn, you haven't posted, you haven't connected with people.
(10:12):
Where is your network?
And that nurturing takes time.
So when you find yourself without a job is the hardest time for you to do the network?
If you haven't done the network for years or you just, you know, have been too busy with your day to day job and now you found yourself in a situation that's way more transactional than it should have been because then you're reaching out without a job.
(10:37):
You know, it's tough out there.
Kendall Berg (10:40):
Would you say that networking is the number one way that people are landing jobs now?
Renata Bernarde (10:44):
It's not just me saying it.
All of my guests and I, when I say this, it's quite bizarre because I'm interviewing CEOs of ATS Systems.
I'm interviewing headhunters, like senior guys that hire senior people.
And they're telling me that if you don't have a tap on the shoulder, you're not going to go through the systems that they have designed.
(11:09):
Right.
So I'm thinking, but you're telling me that you've designed an ATS system and people still have to have a network in order to get the job that's advertised using your ATS system.
Isn't that a little bit weird?
But that's the reality.
The reality is that referrals matter.
There are financial incentives for people to refer you into a job if they are employed in that organization.
(11:35):
They will get a little bonus if you get employed.
So there's a whole bunch of things that have been built into the system that require you to have advocates and champions, not just a referral.
I was talking to a client and she said, oh no, he will be a referral for me when the time comes.
And I said, yes, but he is also part of the decision making team.
(11:57):
So if your resume doesn't reach the short list, will he stand up and say, where is, let's say her name is Maria.
Where is Maria's resume?
Will he say that?
Right?
We want him to be an advocate for you, not just a passive referral at the end of the process.
Kendall Berg (12:15):
Yes.
And it's, I see this all the time.
I can't remember if we talked about this when I was on your episode or not, but I've hired six new headcount in my current corporate role and five of them were referrals.
And five of them were not just referrals, but people who'd worked with me before, worked for me before, worked on my team before.
They were people that reached out to me and said, hey, I saw you posted this role.
(12:39):
I think I could be great at it.
I already knew them, I had a relationship with them and I brought them into my team.
Now I have One person who was a true cold hire, true, like absolute blessing and accident.
But for the most of it, there are people that I knew or that got recommended to me or that somebody I worked with knew and sent me their resume.
And I think there's a lot of feelings about the system working that way.
(13:05):
Right.
We're like, but I should just be able to apply.
You can absolutely just apply.
But most of the time if I can look here and Joe was referred to me and the person that referred Joe I really trust versus Sally, who I don't know, odds are I'm going to make the offer to Joe and that's just because I have a higher level of confidence that's going to work out.
(13:28):
Right.
So building that network is so key.
Building those relationships.
I love what you mentioned at the start of like don't wait till you need the job and then be like, hey Steve, kind of a job.
Right.
That never seems to go well.
It happens every once in a while, but for the most part you want pre existing relationships where you know them and you know what inspires them and you know what they look for before you have to tap them.
(13:54):
Once you have to tap, it's a lot harder.
Renata Bernarde (13:58):
Yeah.
I think that there is a misunderstanding in some of my episodes about the fact that is it's not anecdotal anymore.
I'm pretty certain about this because so many recruiters said that on my show.
And what they say said is the candidates that we shortlist are the candidates that we tapped on the shoulder to apply.
So either they already knew these candidates or they found the candidates on LinkedIn.
(14:22):
So you have to have an optimized profile and a good activity that validates that profile for people to say, okay, I'm sending you a DM about this role, you should apply or let's have a conversation.
But you have to apply for the roles anyway even if you don't know anybody in the organization.
And you have to make your application stand out because that's what gets the ball rolling.
(14:47):
Even if you're applying knowing that your chances for that role that you applied for is small, that's how you get in front of people and start building the network with recruiters, with the talent acquisition professionals.
So you want them to know about you, include you, have a bit of a call and then even if they don't put you forward for that opportunity, you will be now top of mind for them and they will contact you.
(15:10):
If they are excited about you, they will contact you again for other opportunities.
So you have to put yourself out there.
There's no way.
Yeah.
Kendall Berg (15:19):
Building on that, one of the things I often tell my clients do is, you know, if the hiring manager or the recruiter's listed in the job posting, send them a note.
And I'll often hear like, yeah, but nobody ever responds.
You don't need them to respond.
You just need them to see your name and remember it before they see your application.
Like, that's what we're trying to build is name association and recognition.
(15:43):
Because to your point, am I more likely to shortlist it if I'm like, renata sounds so familiar.
What was in her resume?
I'm going to give it a second look.
Forbes published an article, I want to say, in 2022, maybe 2023, where they said the average recruiter looks at a resume for six seconds.
All we want is for them to look at Renata's for seven seconds or eight seconds, because they had that.
Renata Bernarde (16:05):
Huh?
Kendall Berg (16:05):
Why does that name sound familiar?
It's just that, to your point, maybe you're not the right fit for the role, but now they're thinking about you.
Now they're top of mind.
Now they may have a different position.
And so I love all of that.
With the way the job market is today is not easy.
It's slower.
Right.
You know, we're no longer living in 2020, where $400,000 job offers on a Tuesday was a standard occurrence.
(16:29):
If someone's listening to this and they're like, hey, I'm not in the job search, but I feel bored.
Maybe I feel burned out, Maybe I feel stuck.
There's no upward progression in my current role.
What kind of questions should they be asking themselves before they decide to enter the job market?
How do they even evaluate if that's the right next step for them?
Renata Bernarde (16:49):
Yes, it's a privilege to be in that situation where you still have a job and an income and you can think about your career in a way that's more creative, Right?
When you go.
When you become unemployed, when you're laid off, you go into fight and flight mode.
And your brain.
Brain acts differently.
You present yourself differently.
Even your tone of voice, your body language.
(17:11):
And recruiters and HR professionals, they.
They see people like you all the time.
So even though you may not think that you're presenting differently, they will know.
So if you are employed, you have to think about it from the perspective of what are you trying to achieve in life?
Do you want to carry on working in this line of work, or do you want to start pivoting to something else.
(17:36):
What is the end of the tunnel for you in terms of your career progression?
Let's re engineer the steps to get there.
Because if you're bored, if you hate your boss or whatever it is, sometimes it's better the devil you know.
Right.
Sometimes there's a culture within the industry and you're going to change jobs, sometimes earn less money.
(17:56):
I see a lot of people coming to me feeling disenchanted with corporate and they want a nonprofit role.
They want a role with a purpose.
I get it.
But do you realize your pay will be cut in half?
You know?
And do you realize that being in an organization that is fighting for a cause doesn't mean you're going to have a great boss and you're going to have a great working environment?
(18:20):
That's not it.
So you need to sort of identify what it is that you really want to do so that the pros are more sanctuated than the cons.
Because every job will have pros and cons.
Kendall Berg (18:35):
Yeah.
And something I just want to add to this because it is important to evaluate if more of the same is actually going to change for the better.
Right.
I have my clients all the time.
I'm like, is the grass greener?
Like what we're looking for?
Is the grass actually greener at this other company, at this higher seniority level, at this xyz fill in the blank position?
(18:57):
And when you have a job, you have the opportunity, you have flexibility.
Right.
We're not in a rush.
We're not under duress.
We're not stressed out yet.
Renata Bernarde (19:08):
Maybe.
Kendall Berg (19:11):
But there may also be internal opportunities that are different and better.
Right.
Something I talk about a lot with my clients is ghost cultures, which is we have this fundamental belief that cultures exist at a company level.
A company has a bad culture, and.
Renata Bernarde (19:27):
Likely.
Kendall Berg (19:29):
A company with a not so great culture has it in multiple places.
But there are always going to be teams that have different cultures.
Right.
I've worked for companies where I loved my team and I had such a positive experience and had a co worker at a different part of the business whose experience was terrible.
Right.
Because the culture is really determined by the manager.
It's determined by the leadership, it's determined by the people on the team.
(19:53):
And so if you take this step back and you think about it and you go, okay, maybe I don't want to do this, maybe I do want to pivot, or maybe I still love what I do, but I'm stressed by the people around me.
Are there internal opportunities where building relationships are Easier.
It's easier for me to walk to somebody's desk or send somebody an internal email and be like, hey, do you have time to chat?
Than it is to jump ship?
(20:14):
And so can you carve out a new role for yourself?
Is there another team that.
Especially for people who want to make a pivot, I always tell them, start internally first if you can.
If you want to move from data science to creative advertising, I would consider those pretty opposing types of jobs.
You should go meet with everybody in creative advertising.
(20:37):
What does their day look like?
What does their job look like?
What do they love about their job?
What do they hate about their job?
Learn all those things first.
Make sure it's the right fit, and then work with them to set yourself up for success and that opportunity.
It doesn't always have to mean that leaving the company is your only solution.
Sometimes it can mean I just need a change of environment, change of team, change of culture.
(20:58):
So I love that you brought that up, because I hear the grass greener all the time, and I'm like.
Renata Bernarde (21:05):
I love that.
Yeah, No, I saw a clip from one of your episodes about the ghost culture.
I really like that name that you gave it.
I had never heard it before.
I'm gonna tell you a story.
It's kind of a little business case from a former client of mine.
She was unhappy in her workplace.
Really unhappy, you know, really struggling.
(21:26):
It was a new boss.
It's one of those times when everything goes to shit because there's a new boss and you just don't click well.
And she had already.
When she reached out to me, she had already applied for two jobs, and she was going for interviews, and she just wanted some help with the interviews.
And both of them were, like, way below her salary range that she was at the time.
(21:47):
And.
And there was, you know, she did not know these organizations, so there was no guarantee that the culture, you know, the real culture or the group, the department culture, would better.
And what I think you're absolutely right about those sort of different cultures happening in different teams, but I also, you know, see happening is your traits clashing with the traits of your manager or your team.
(22:13):
And I think we touched on that in our previous discussion when you came on my podcast.
And I think that is so bizarre because I have once worked with six senior executives that were all reporting to the same senior guy, the top guy.
And some of them were super happy, and the others weren't, like, I would say, 50.
(22:34):
And I think it had to do with them not gelling well with their boss, but also some of them not being quite the right personality for a bureaucratic organization.
This was a government department, and some of them were too entrepr scenario.
So people say, oh, nobody knows me better than I do.
I'm like, I don't know that you know yourself that well.
(22:56):
Let's do a strengths assessment test, right?
Because we normalize our talents.
We just think that they're normal.
Oh, isn't everybody like, this?
Doesn't everybody wants this out of life?
And I'm like, not really.
This is something that you feel that's very important.
So, for example, you mentioned before sales, like, I should have been in sales.
(23:19):
There are some traits of personality and behaviors.
You know, Martin Seligman and the people in positive psychology did a lot of research around this.
Like, if you are an optimist and if you have that resiliency, you will thrive in sales.
But if you don't, if that's not your trait, if your trait is having precision, organization, or, I don't know, critical thinking, you should be somewhere else, and you will thrive there.
(23:45):
So.
So sort of understanding that is important in terms of how you gel with the rest of the team is great.
So with that client going back to her, we did a strengths assessment test for her, and we identified what her top talents were, and we kind of guessed what her new boss's talents were.
And then she felt more comfortable working with him, knowing that it wasn't something personal attacking her.
(24:10):
It was just the sort of his leadership style and his style of working.
And she still there.
She hasn't left.
Kendall Berg (24:19):
This is such a great example because I talk a lot with my clients about projected expectations.
Right.
We tend to expect from others the things we expect from ourselves.
Right.
If I'm a timely communicator, I expect you to be a timely communicator.
If I'm organized, I expect you to be organized.
If I'm good at managing projects and deadlines, I expect you to be good at managing projects and deadlines.
(24:41):
And the reality is that we all have different strengths and weaknesses.
And so what happens is Kendall ends up in a disagreement with Renata not over the work itself, but over an unspoken expectation that wasn't met.
And neither of them know why.
They just think like, oh, this person's so difficult to work with.
They don't like me.
We don't gel.
(25:01):
I love that phrase.
And the reality is, like, do they have different expectations and different strengths?
And you just are having a hard time articulating what you Need.
And so often it comes down to that is I didn't articulate what I needed in this relationship and we had a mismatch and then we created tension and we never talked about it.
And then now I hate you and I want to go work for somebody else.
(25:24):
And I love that you brought that back around and we're like, do you or do you just need to adjust to their expectations and your style of working in a way that you guys can work together effectively?
So, so it's so true.
And just to repeat it, if you're listening, nobody knows themselves well, just be super clear, right?
I've done this thousands of times and everybody I talk to, they're like, I'm super organized and the next five emails I get from them are all over the place and I'm like, are we, is that our strength?
(25:54):
Right?
So there's always space to learn ourselves more and to step out of ourselves to learn others more.
So I love that you brought that around.
So for anybody who's listening to this episode who's like, this has been great, definitely need to invest in networking, definitely need to invest in relationships, definitely need to focus on getting to know myself.
(26:15):
But they want to have a successful career, they want to plan for that 70 year old version of themselves.
What's one thing you would tell them to go do tactically tomorrow to really start to jumpstart that process in a positive direction?
Renata Bernarde (26:29):
Oh my gosh, they're going to hate what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway.
Okay, everyone listen up.
You have to start doing content.
And that is LinkedIn, you know, most of it.
You know, if go to TikTok, if you get laid off and spill out the beans, that's fine.
(26:50):
LinkedIn activity is the best thing for validation of your expertise, right?
People think, oh, I just want to have this great LinkedIn profile and have everything there and can you help me?
And I'm like, yes, I can help you.
It's not going to get you the job.
What will get you the job is people knowing that you know what you're talking about and you learning how to speak with your own words, not ChatGPT or Claude or other AI tools and creating your own content, you know, explaining, let's say you are a product manager and you're excited about, you know, pharma and you are releasing, you know, go to market ideas about new medication and you're going to conferences and you're attending events and meeting people and you're learning it's not like you're an expert yet.
(27:48):
I get it.
You're learning.
Why aren't we learning with you?
What are the 10 best things you've done in 2025 to learn more about this area that you're, you know, passionate about?
What conferences are you attending?
What books have you read?
(28:10):
What podcasts should people read if they want to learn more about cybersecurity or machine learning or whatever it is like esg.
Share with others.
I have a friend, he's not a colleague, who was very keen a few years ago and learning more about cyber security.
(28:30):
He's a techie guy.
And he said, and he compared on a video on LinkedIn, three courses.
He done a Microsoft course, another course, and this other course, and he compared the prices.
He explained what you would learn from each one of them.
And he said, look, I started off doing the Microsoft.
If I had to do it again, I would start off doing this other one.
(28:51):
So I'm.
That.
That was so great.
I sent that video to I don't know how many clients.
Right.
Because it's lived experience and it's shared, and I think it's great.
So, yeah, LinkedIn activity.
Kendall Berg (29:04):
I agree.
Renata Bernarde (29:05):
That's what you need to.
Kendall Berg (29:07):
It makes you sad because I think there's, you know, there's a running joke at my company, like, Kendall posts so much content on LinkedIn.
Like, you'll.
If you follow her, you have to mute her, which is fair.
I do post multiple times a day, but I will also say that it's built so many good relationships for me.
Renata Bernarde (29:24):
Right.
Kendall Berg (29:25):
I had the CEO of Informatica on my podcast not long ago, and she and I connected through LinkedIn, like, really does open doors.
And building that shared experience, I think is a great way to do it.
You know, commenting on articles you find interesting, sharing your experience, learning a new tool.
I mean, AI is everywhere right now.
What can you tell us about AI in your space?
(29:47):
And especially as you start to get towards the executive level, that becomes increasingly important for recruiting and for bringing people into a company is like, oh, well, what's their brand?
Their public brand?
Not even just personal.
And so it's.
It's definitely great advice, and I appreciate hearing it from someone who's not me, because I'm sure my listeners are sick of hearing it.
(30:12):
If they listen to this and they loved hearing from you, Renata, and they want to connect with you, they want to learn more about you.
Where can listeners go to get more information?
Renata Bernarde (30:21):
Go to LinkedIn.
I'm there.
You know, connect with me.
Send me a connection request.
You can also listen to my podcast, the Job Hunting Podcast.
And yeah, those are the two easiest ways to find me.
Kendall Berg (30:34):
Awesome.
Well, we'll tag both of those in the show notes.
It's been so great getting to chat with you, Renata.
We appreciate it.
If you listen to this episode and you loved it, go ahead and give us five stars.
Otherwise, if you have any questions for Renata or myself, please put them below so that we can get back to you.
Otherwise, thanks again for coming on the episode.
We'll have to have you back.
Renata Bernarde (30:51):
Bye everyone.
Bye.
I'm not in the job search, but I feel bored.
Maybe I feel burnt out.
Maybe I feel stuck.
There's no upward progression in my current role.
What kind of questions should they be asking themselves before they decide to enter the job market?
How do they even evaluate if that's the right next step for them?
Renata Bernarde (00:18):
Yes, it's a privilege to be in that situation where you still have a job and an income and you can think about your career in a way that's more creative.
Right?
Kendall Berg (00:28):
Right.
Renata Bernarde (00:28):
When you go.
When you become unemployed, when you're laid off, you go into fight and flight mode and your brain acts differently.
You present yourself differently, even your tone of voice, your body language.
And recruiters and HR professionals, they.
They see people like you all the time.
So even though you may not think that you're presenting differently, they will know.
Kendall Berg (00:49):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game.
So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets cleverly hidden to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing.
On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster.
(01:14):
Hello and welcome back to the pod.
Today we have a fabulous guest for you.
Renata Bernarde is joining us.
She is a career coach and a job hunting expert who helps experienced and senior professionals design successful career strategies, secure new roles, and navigate career transitions with confidence, which could not be more appropriate given the state of today's job market.
(01:37):
So thank you so much for Renata for coming on the episode.
Renata Bernarde (01:40):
Oh, thank you for having me.
It's wonderful to be here.
Kendall Berg (01:43):
So you talk a lot about, like, the hidden rules of job hunting.
How did you end up a job hunting coach?
Right.
What was your journey kind of to the point that you're at now?
Renata Bernarde (01:55):
Oh, yeah, no, my journey is awesome.
I did a lot of the wrong things for a long time.
I started working really young and I was.
I have a WhatsApp group with some childhood friends and we talk every day and they were just mentioning yesterday.
Remember when Renata had a job at an architectural firm and she was 14 and everybody was like, what?
(02:20):
Yes, I forgot about that.
So I started working really young and I always have the.
I always had the ambition to earn my own money.
That's.
That's the honest truth.
But I made so many mistakes, you know, trying to do too much too soon and trying to achieve too much without having the experience.
(02:40):
And I definitely never Understood the recruitment part of things up until, I don't know, 10 years ago.
I'm 53 now, so it took me a long time.
And I started taking notes, Kendall.
Literally I started taking notes and writing things down because I knew that eventually I wanted to share them with others.
Kendall Berg (02:59):
I love that.
And you and I have chatted before.
I've come on your pod as well.
And there's so many similarities in our story of making the wrong decisions, figuring out how to navigate it, and then being like, would anyone else, like, help?
Because it's it is so challenging.
And especially as times change, as the job market evolves, it feels like it gets harder, you know, in the.
(03:24):
If you go back to my first job, I think I walked in and handed someone a paper resume and said I'd really like a job.
And they called me and I interviewed and it was great.
Then we moved towards job boards.
Right.
The indeeds of the world posting jobs for us.
And now we say that job boards aren't the main way to land the role.
(03:44):
So what should ambitious professionals, what should they be doing instead?
Now, given that the job market climate has kind of shifted and changed, if they want to land those ideal roles.
Renata Bernarde (03:55):
Yes, I think that you're right.
Things keep changing and they have changed.
I think to ensure that we understand the need to take control.
If you do not have self agency these days, you're stuffed.
Real literally, you have to put yourself out there.
(04:17):
And we are probably the last group of professionals.
By we, I mean white collar workers, people that work behind a desk in front of a computer.
We're the last people to have to embrace that.
If you have people in your family that are plumbers, carpenters, brickworkers, artists, they know how to sell themselves because if they don't do proposals and do quotes for clients and go after, even dentists and doctors have to sell themselves, right?
(04:48):
Otherwise they don't get that surgery.
People will shop around and find somebody else.
I don't know what happened to us.
We just became so complacent and we just think that once we have a job that's it, the employer will take care of us.
Nope, they will not.
My husband was made redundant a couple of years ago and his manager didn't know that he had been made redundant.
(05:10):
Right.
Decisions are not done at that level anymore.
They are higher up.
So you have to take control of your career.
That's the key message.
Kendall Berg (05:20):
It's so great that you bring this up because, you know, we've talked before and I've talked about this on the pod before as well, that you have to have this CEO mindset.
And I was actually talking to a client earlier this week.
You'll appreciate it.
She was like, I hate sales.
I feel like I should have taken a sales role in college, but I hate it.
And now I feel like I'm in sales.
(05:41):
And I'm like, you are.
But what you're selling is you and your job and your relevance and why you should be promoted and why your work is important.
Like, we all end up in sales at some point because you're selling to your leadership, your value, frankly.
And I love the way that you titled it self agency.
It's not just self advocacy, it's not just a willingness to do the job.
(06:07):
It's that true ownership of self, of like, I'm gonna make it happen and if I don't go make it happen, nobody's gonna make it happen for me.
Renata Bernarde (06:15):
Yes.
And look, even if you're listening to us and you are employed and you're thinking, oh, you know, that's really not my case, sometimes a shift happens and your manager goes somewhere else, is promoted or leaves the organization and that's enough for everything else to crumble.
So you need to really think about your future in a different way.
(06:37):
And our brains are wired for a different world.
Our brain is not wired for 20, 25 and beyond.
It's wired for us living in a cave and being afraid of cybertruck tigers.
And we don't have built into us, most of us, this thing about thinking about 20 years from now.
(06:59):
We have trouble thinking about climate change.
We have trouble thinking about how to, you know, do some end poverty, end hunger.
We don't invest in the right things because we're very short term wired.
Right.
And career planning and design falls under that.
It's not as, I mean, you may think it's not as important as climate change, but you know what I mean?
(07:21):
Like we don't think about how are we going to live when we are 70 years old.
And what I tell people is to think about it from this perspective.
Think about that 70 year old as being your grandmother.
It will be you one day.
You know, how is she going to live?
What sort of life do you want her to have become her best friend and take care of her from your health all the way to your career, what you eat, what you drink, how you sleep, take care of her.
Kendall Berg (07:52):
Yes.
And it's easy to think.
It's so far away and there's so many studies on this and we're not going to get too far off on the financial topic, but there's so many studies that show, you know, the average individual isn't saving for retirement.
The average individual isn't saving full stop.
The average individual doesn't have a plan when they're done working.
And you have to think ahead with these things, with the decisions that you're making now to strategically set yourself up for that.
(08:17):
And one of the things I tell a lot of my younger clients is I'm like, you should be trying all sorts of jobs when you're younger and figuring out what you like.
You don't have to be in a vertical.
I hate the phrase climb the ladder because it implies you only move straight up.
And I feel like that's not the path for most people.
(08:39):
So if people are trying to do this, if they're trying to look at how to make strategies, like what mistakes are they making now that are keeping them from making grandmother me or grandfather me happy at age 70?
Renata Bernarde (08:54):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
I've heard you say that thing about the ladder, and you're absolutely right.
And I remember many years ago having a little ladder in my PowerPoint presentation.
When I heard you say that, I'm like, I shouldn't have that letter.
You know, if you've been a client for a long time, you've seen it, like in one of my job hunting webinars, that leather.
Oh, gosh, I heard it from you.
(09:16):
Not to use it again.
Okay.
So the things that really people don't think about, and it's our fault, because we as corporate professionals, we don't talk about is the amount of time things take to happen, especially when you're unemployed.
Right?
So when you're unemployed and you're not looking for a clerical job or a job at McDonald's, it will take weeks, if not months, will take months for you to find a job.
(09:46):
The higher up you are and the more experienced you are.
It's a pyramid in an organization.
There are less people at the top.
And I work with clients that are very experienced.
So we don't talk about that.
We just go on LinkedIn and see people posting that they just got a new job.
And we think, why didn't we get this job?
Well, you didn't get this job because you haven't been on LinkedIn, you haven't posted, you haven't connected with people.
(10:12):
Where is your network?
And that nurturing takes time.
So when you find yourself without a job is the hardest time for you to do the network?
If you haven't done the network for years or you just, you know, have been too busy with your day to day job and now you found yourself in a situation that's way more transactional than it should have been because then you're reaching out without a job.
(10:37):
You know, it's tough out there.
Kendall Berg (10:40):
Would you say that networking is the number one way that people are landing jobs now?
Renata Bernarde (10:44):
It's not just me saying it.
All of my guests and I, when I say this, it's quite bizarre because I'm interviewing CEOs of ATS Systems.
I'm interviewing headhunters, like senior guys that hire senior people.
And they're telling me that if you don't have a tap on the shoulder, you're not going to go through the systems that they have designed.
(11:09):
Right.
So I'm thinking, but you're telling me that you've designed an ATS system and people still have to have a network in order to get the job that's advertised using your ATS system.
Isn't that a little bit weird?
But that's the reality.
The reality is that referrals matter.
There are financial incentives for people to refer you into a job if they are employed in that organization.
(11:35):
They will get a little bonus if you get employed.
So there's a whole bunch of things that have been built into the system that require you to have advocates and champions, not just a referral.
I was talking to a client and she said, oh no, he will be a referral for me when the time comes.
And I said, yes, but he is also part of the decision making team.
(11:57):
So if your resume doesn't reach the short list, will he stand up and say, where is, let's say her name is Maria.
Where is Maria's resume?
Will he say that?
Right?
We want him to be an advocate for you, not just a passive referral at the end of the process.
Kendall Berg (12:15):
Yes.
And it's, I see this all the time.
I can't remember if we talked about this when I was on your episode or not, but I've hired six new headcount in my current corporate role and five of them were referrals.
And five of them were not just referrals, but people who'd worked with me before, worked for me before, worked on my team before.
They were people that reached out to me and said, hey, I saw you posted this role.
(12:39):
I think I could be great at it.
I already knew them, I had a relationship with them and I brought them into my team.
Now I have One person who was a true cold hire, true, like absolute blessing and accident.
But for the most of it, there are people that I knew or that got recommended to me or that somebody I worked with knew and sent me their resume.
And I think there's a lot of feelings about the system working that way.
(13:05):
Right.
We're like, but I should just be able to apply.
You can absolutely just apply.
But most of the time if I can look here and Joe was referred to me and the person that referred Joe I really trust versus Sally, who I don't know, odds are I'm going to make the offer to Joe and that's just because I have a higher level of confidence that's going to work out.
(13:28):
Right.
So building that network is so key.
Building those relationships.
I love what you mentioned at the start of like don't wait till you need the job and then be like, hey Steve, kind of a job.
Right.
That never seems to go well.
It happens every once in a while, but for the most part you want pre existing relationships where you know them and you know what inspires them and you know what they look for before you have to tap them.
(13:54):
Once you have to tap, it's a lot harder.
Renata Bernarde (13:58):
Yeah.
I think that there is a misunderstanding in some of my episodes about the fact that is it's not anecdotal anymore.
I'm pretty certain about this because so many recruiters said that on my show.
And what they say said is the candidates that we shortlist are the candidates that we tapped on the shoulder to apply.
So either they already knew these candidates or they found the candidates on LinkedIn.
(14:22):
So you have to have an optimized profile and a good activity that validates that profile for people to say, okay, I'm sending you a DM about this role, you should apply or let's have a conversation.
But you have to apply for the roles anyway even if you don't know anybody in the organization.
And you have to make your application stand out because that's what gets the ball rolling.
(14:47):
Even if you're applying knowing that your chances for that role that you applied for is small, that's how you get in front of people and start building the network with recruiters, with the talent acquisition professionals.
So you want them to know about you, include you, have a bit of a call and then even if they don't put you forward for that opportunity, you will be now top of mind for them and they will contact you.
(15:10):
If they are excited about you, they will contact you again for other opportunities.
So you have to put yourself out there.
There's no way.
Yeah.
Kendall Berg (15:19):
Building on that, one of the things I often tell my clients do is, you know, if the hiring manager or the recruiter's listed in the job posting, send them a note.
And I'll often hear like, yeah, but nobody ever responds.
You don't need them to respond.
You just need them to see your name and remember it before they see your application.
Like, that's what we're trying to build is name association and recognition.
(15:43):
Because to your point, am I more likely to shortlist it if I'm like, renata sounds so familiar.
What was in her resume?
I'm going to give it a second look.
Forbes published an article, I want to say, in 2022, maybe 2023, where they said the average recruiter looks at a resume for six seconds.
All we want is for them to look at Renata's for seven seconds or eight seconds, because they had that.
Renata Bernarde (16:05):
Huh?
Kendall Berg (16:05):
Why does that name sound familiar?
It's just that, to your point, maybe you're not the right fit for the role, but now they're thinking about you.
Now they're top of mind.
Now they may have a different position.
And so I love all of that.
With the way the job market is today is not easy.
It's slower.
Right.
You know, we're no longer living in 2020, where $400,000 job offers on a Tuesday was a standard occurrence.
(16:29):
If someone's listening to this and they're like, hey, I'm not in the job search, but I feel bored.
Maybe I feel burned out, Maybe I feel stuck.
There's no upward progression in my current role.
What kind of questions should they be asking themselves before they decide to enter the job market?
How do they even evaluate if that's the right next step for them?
Renata Bernarde (16:49):
Yes, it's a privilege to be in that situation where you still have a job and an income and you can think about your career in a way that's more creative, Right?
When you go.
When you become unemployed, when you're laid off, you go into fight and flight mode.
And your brain.
Brain acts differently.
You present yourself differently.
Even your tone of voice, your body language.
(17:11):
And recruiters and HR professionals, they.
They see people like you all the time.
So even though you may not think that you're presenting differently, they will know.
So if you are employed, you have to think about it from the perspective of what are you trying to achieve in life?
Do you want to carry on working in this line of work, or do you want to start pivoting to something else.
(17:36):
What is the end of the tunnel for you in terms of your career progression?
Let's re engineer the steps to get there.
Because if you're bored, if you hate your boss or whatever it is, sometimes it's better the devil you know.
Right.
Sometimes there's a culture within the industry and you're going to change jobs, sometimes earn less money.
(17:56):
I see a lot of people coming to me feeling disenchanted with corporate and they want a nonprofit role.
They want a role with a purpose.
I get it.
But do you realize your pay will be cut in half?
You know?
And do you realize that being in an organization that is fighting for a cause doesn't mean you're going to have a great boss and you're going to have a great working environment?
(18:20):
That's not it.
So you need to sort of identify what it is that you really want to do so that the pros are more sanctuated than the cons.
Because every job will have pros and cons.
Kendall Berg (18:35):
Yeah.
And something I just want to add to this because it is important to evaluate if more of the same is actually going to change for the better.
Right.
I have my clients all the time.
I'm like, is the grass greener?
Like what we're looking for?
Is the grass actually greener at this other company, at this higher seniority level, at this xyz fill in the blank position?
(18:57):
And when you have a job, you have the opportunity, you have flexibility.
Right.
We're not in a rush.
We're not under duress.
We're not stressed out yet.
Renata Bernarde (19:08):
Maybe.
Kendall Berg (19:11):
But there may also be internal opportunities that are different and better.
Right.
Something I talk about a lot with my clients is ghost cultures, which is we have this fundamental belief that cultures exist at a company level.
A company has a bad culture, and.
Renata Bernarde (19:27):
Likely.
Kendall Berg (19:29):
A company with a not so great culture has it in multiple places.
But there are always going to be teams that have different cultures.
Right.
I've worked for companies where I loved my team and I had such a positive experience and had a co worker at a different part of the business whose experience was terrible.
Right.
Because the culture is really determined by the manager.
It's determined by the leadership, it's determined by the people on the team.
(19:53):
And so if you take this step back and you think about it and you go, okay, maybe I don't want to do this, maybe I do want to pivot, or maybe I still love what I do, but I'm stressed by the people around me.
Are there internal opportunities where building relationships are Easier.
It's easier for me to walk to somebody's desk or send somebody an internal email and be like, hey, do you have time to chat?
Than it is to jump ship?
(20:14):
And so can you carve out a new role for yourself?
Is there another team that.
Especially for people who want to make a pivot, I always tell them, start internally first if you can.
If you want to move from data science to creative advertising, I would consider those pretty opposing types of jobs.
You should go meet with everybody in creative advertising.
(20:37):
What does their day look like?
What does their job look like?
What do they love about their job?
What do they hate about their job?
Learn all those things first.
Make sure it's the right fit, and then work with them to set yourself up for success and that opportunity.
It doesn't always have to mean that leaving the company is your only solution.
Sometimes it can mean I just need a change of environment, change of team, change of culture.
(20:58):
So I love that you brought that up, because I hear the grass greener all the time, and I'm like.
Renata Bernarde (21:05):
I love that.
Yeah, No, I saw a clip from one of your episodes about the ghost culture.
I really like that name that you gave it.
I had never heard it before.
I'm gonna tell you a story.
It's kind of a little business case from a former client of mine.
She was unhappy in her workplace.
Really unhappy, you know, really struggling.
(21:26):
It was a new boss.
It's one of those times when everything goes to shit because there's a new boss and you just don't click well.
And she had already.
When she reached out to me, she had already applied for two jobs, and she was going for interviews, and she just wanted some help with the interviews.
And both of them were, like, way below her salary range that she was at the time.
(21:47):
And.
And there was, you know, she did not know these organizations, so there was no guarantee that the culture, you know, the real culture or the group, the department culture, would better.
And what I think you're absolutely right about those sort of different cultures happening in different teams, but I also, you know, see happening is your traits clashing with the traits of your manager or your team.
(22:13):
And I think we touched on that in our previous discussion when you came on my podcast.
And I think that is so bizarre because I have once worked with six senior executives that were all reporting to the same senior guy, the top guy.
And some of them were super happy, and the others weren't, like, I would say, 50.
(22:34):
And I think it had to do with them not gelling well with their boss, but also some of them not being quite the right personality for a bureaucratic organization.
This was a government department, and some of them were too entrepr scenario.
So people say, oh, nobody knows me better than I do.
I'm like, I don't know that you know yourself that well.
(22:56):
Let's do a strengths assessment test, right?
Because we normalize our talents.
We just think that they're normal.
Oh, isn't everybody like, this?
Doesn't everybody wants this out of life?
And I'm like, not really.
This is something that you feel that's very important.
So, for example, you mentioned before sales, like, I should have been in sales.
(23:19):
There are some traits of personality and behaviors.
You know, Martin Seligman and the people in positive psychology did a lot of research around this.
Like, if you are an optimist and if you have that resiliency, you will thrive in sales.
But if you don't, if that's not your trait, if your trait is having precision, organization, or, I don't know, critical thinking, you should be somewhere else, and you will thrive there.
(23:45):
So.
So sort of understanding that is important in terms of how you gel with the rest of the team is great.
So with that client going back to her, we did a strengths assessment test for her, and we identified what her top talents were, and we kind of guessed what her new boss's talents were.
And then she felt more comfortable working with him, knowing that it wasn't something personal attacking her.
(24:10):
It was just the sort of his leadership style and his style of working.
And she still there.
She hasn't left.
Kendall Berg (24:19):
This is such a great example because I talk a lot with my clients about projected expectations.
Right.
We tend to expect from others the things we expect from ourselves.
Right.
If I'm a timely communicator, I expect you to be a timely communicator.
If I'm organized, I expect you to be organized.
If I'm good at managing projects and deadlines, I expect you to be good at managing projects and deadlines.
(24:41):
And the reality is that we all have different strengths and weaknesses.
And so what happens is Kendall ends up in a disagreement with Renata not over the work itself, but over an unspoken expectation that wasn't met.
And neither of them know why.
They just think like, oh, this person's so difficult to work with.
They don't like me.
We don't gel.
(25:01):
I love that phrase.
And the reality is, like, do they have different expectations and different strengths?
And you just are having a hard time articulating what you Need.
And so often it comes down to that is I didn't articulate what I needed in this relationship and we had a mismatch and then we created tension and we never talked about it.
And then now I hate you and I want to go work for somebody else.
(25:24):
And I love that you brought that back around and we're like, do you or do you just need to adjust to their expectations and your style of working in a way that you guys can work together effectively?
So, so it's so true.
And just to repeat it, if you're listening, nobody knows themselves well, just be super clear, right?
I've done this thousands of times and everybody I talk to, they're like, I'm super organized and the next five emails I get from them are all over the place and I'm like, are we, is that our strength?
(25:54):
Right?
So there's always space to learn ourselves more and to step out of ourselves to learn others more.
So I love that you brought that around.
So for anybody who's listening to this episode who's like, this has been great, definitely need to invest in networking, definitely need to invest in relationships, definitely need to focus on getting to know myself.
(26:15):
But they want to have a successful career, they want to plan for that 70 year old version of themselves.
What's one thing you would tell them to go do tactically tomorrow to really start to jumpstart that process in a positive direction?
Renata Bernarde (26:29):
Oh my gosh, they're going to hate what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway.
Okay, everyone listen up.
You have to start doing content.
And that is LinkedIn, you know, most of it.
You know, if go to TikTok, if you get laid off and spill out the beans, that's fine.
(26:50):
LinkedIn activity is the best thing for validation of your expertise, right?
People think, oh, I just want to have this great LinkedIn profile and have everything there and can you help me?
And I'm like, yes, I can help you.
It's not going to get you the job.
What will get you the job is people knowing that you know what you're talking about and you learning how to speak with your own words, not ChatGPT or Claude or other AI tools and creating your own content, you know, explaining, let's say you are a product manager and you're excited about, you know, pharma and you are releasing, you know, go to market ideas about new medication and you're going to conferences and you're attending events and meeting people and you're learning it's not like you're an expert yet.
(27:48):
I get it.
You're learning.
Why aren't we learning with you?
What are the 10 best things you've done in 2025 to learn more about this area that you're, you know, passionate about?
What conferences are you attending?
What books have you read?
(28:10):
What podcasts should people read if they want to learn more about cybersecurity or machine learning or whatever it is like esg.
Share with others.
I have a friend, he's not a colleague, who was very keen a few years ago and learning more about cyber security.
(28:30):
He's a techie guy.
And he said, and he compared on a video on LinkedIn, three courses.
He done a Microsoft course, another course, and this other course, and he compared the prices.
He explained what you would learn from each one of them.
And he said, look, I started off doing the Microsoft.
If I had to do it again, I would start off doing this other one.
(28:51):
So I'm.
That.
That was so great.
I sent that video to I don't know how many clients.
Right.
Because it's lived experience and it's shared, and I think it's great.
So, yeah, LinkedIn activity.
Kendall Berg (29:04):
I agree.
Renata Bernarde (29:05):
That's what you need to.
Kendall Berg (29:07):
It makes you sad because I think there's, you know, there's a running joke at my company, like, Kendall posts so much content on LinkedIn.
Like, you'll.
If you follow her, you have to mute her, which is fair.
I do post multiple times a day, but I will also say that it's built so many good relationships for me.
Renata Bernarde (29:24):
Right.
Kendall Berg (29:25):
I had the CEO of Informatica on my podcast not long ago, and she and I connected through LinkedIn, like, really does open doors.
And building that shared experience, I think is a great way to do it.
You know, commenting on articles you find interesting, sharing your experience, learning a new tool.
I mean, AI is everywhere right now.
What can you tell us about AI in your space?
(29:47):
And especially as you start to get towards the executive level, that becomes increasingly important for recruiting and for bringing people into a company is like, oh, well, what's their brand?
Their public brand?
Not even just personal.
And so it's.
It's definitely great advice, and I appreciate hearing it from someone who's not me, because I'm sure my listeners are sick of hearing it.
(30:12):
If they listen to this and they loved hearing from you, Renata, and they want to connect with you, they want to learn more about you.
Where can listeners go to get more information?
Renata Bernarde (30:21):
Go to LinkedIn.
I'm there.
You know, connect with me.
Send me a connection request.
You can also listen to my podcast, the Job Hunting Podcast.
And yeah, those are the two easiest ways to find me.
Kendall Berg (30:34):
Awesome.
Well, we'll tag both of those in the show notes.
It's been so great getting to chat with you, Renata.
We appreciate it.
If you listen to this episode and you loved it, go ahead and give us five stars.
Otherwise, if you have any questions for Renata or myself, please put them below so that we can get back to you.
Otherwise, thanks again for coming on the episode.
We'll have to have you back.
Renata Bernarde (30:51):
Bye everyone.
Bye.
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