April 14, 2025 • 29 mins
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MEET TRACEY NEWELL
Specializing in accelerating go-to-market teams and top line revenue growth, Tracey Newell serves on the board of five high growth software companies, Sailpoint, Druva, Highspot, DataRobot, and Deepwatch. Tracey also serves as an advisor for Blackrock Long Term Private Capital and Spring Coast Capital Partners.
Book: Hers For The Taking: Your Path to the C-Suite and Beyond:
Website: https://www.tracey-newell.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracey-newell/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tracy Newell (00:00):
If you look at the Russell 3000, which is 3,000 companies in the United States, as of 2023, 16% of the named executive officers were women. So that means 84 out of 100 were not women. And so thus my opening comments. I think we need more pipeline. And to me, the way we get more pipeline is encouraging more women like you to say, hey, I can do this. I can lead companies someday. And perhaps just as importantly, I want to. Is it worth it? Because early in your career, as I've said a few times, for me, life was a little chaotic and it could be a little overwhelming. I'm just trying to get through the day as I'm learning at the fastest pace I can run to while dealing, you know, juggling many balls outside of my career.
(00:44):
And yet it won't always be that way. It's a point in time. So 10 or 15 years from now, there will be an opportunity for you. And the goal is to get more people like you to think bigger and broader and then to surround them with the people and the experiences and skills to help you set yourself apart from the pack.
Kendall Berg (01:03):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing. On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster. Hello. Hello. I am super excited about our podcast episode today. We have Tracy Newell with us. She is going to be such a wealth of knowledge. We're going to be talking about the path to C suite for her new book, which is hers for the taking your path to the C suite and beyond, which we're really jazzed about.
(01:44):
She has specialized in accelerating go to market teams and top line revenue growth. She has sat on the board for five huge companies. SailPoint, Druva, HighSpot, DataRobot, and Deepwatch. She's the former president of Informatica. Like she has so much amazing experience. So Tracy, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
Tracy Newell (02:02):
Well, Kendall, you are super kind and I'm thrilled to be here.
Kendall Berg (02:05):
Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell listeners a little bit about your background, what that journey looked like for you for how you got to where you are today.
Tracy Newell (02:13):
Yeah, I grew up at really big companies and I just kept going to smaller companies. I started at&T and Cisco and was running billion dollar businesses for Cisco and took over sales for WebEx back when there were two SaaS companies, WebEx and Salesforce.com and that kind of changed my career forever. So I just started going to smaller organizations and ended up being an officer for a couple of public companies, Polycom and Proofpoint. And from there I decided I wanted to do board work. I've been on several boards since then and I just love, love technology. I love leading and I like, I love helping others to succeed.
Kendall Berg (02:48):
I absolutely love that. It's so interesting. I started my career at&T as well a million years ago. And we won't go quite so far back in like the Southwestern Bell days and all of those things. So. But I'd love to chat. You've had a really successful career. You've progressed very quickly. Large companies and small companies. What do you think is the leading reason why women aren't getting to that C suite level or getting there enough? And what are some of the things that they can do and we can do to start changing some of that?
Tracy Newell (03:18):
Well, Kendyl, that was really the inspiration as to why I decided to write a book. I've spent 30 years helping women and leading diversity efforts to get more women into technology. And yet, as you know, it's a really tough problem because engineering companies don't have a lot of women in them. And what I've come to appreciate is that, and that's really what the book is about is I really think to get more women into the C suite and into the boardroom, we have to increase the pipeline, which means we need more people like you to start thinking about doing those executive level jobs when you're still early on in your career. And I recognize that's asking a lot because when I was early on in my career, I had two little kids under 6 years old.
(03:59):
I was just trying to make it through the day. And yet it was someone who asked me when I was 35, would you run a company sales organization for a company like Cisco? And I looked at them like 35, like, I couldn't do that. I can't travel, I can't. You know, I had so many reasons. And my mentor at the time said, well, would you do it 10 or 15 years from now? And I kind of paused and I gulped and I said, well, maybe thinking I don't know how I would be ready for that. And she said, well, plan your career now as if you're going to do that in 10 or 15 years.
(04:38):
So give yourself Permission to dream and to think really big and then get the experiences over the next decade so that when, you know, in my case when my kids were grown, I was willing and able to take that big job.
Kendall Berg (04:51):
If you have been eagerly awaiting the Secrets of the Career Game book, it is officially available for pre order. This book will go over 36 strategies for building success in your career and honestly is some of my best lessons, best templates, best and best ways for you to start to get the success and the progression in your career that you deserve. If you do pre order the book, make sure that you email a screenshot of your Pre order to thatcareercoachmail.com in order to be added to our top secret community. In that community, you'll have access to me as well as 2 live Q& A sessions. When the book launches, you'll also get an extra early copy with the first chapter of the book. For you. To read ahead, go to Amazon, Find Secrets of the career game 36 Strategies for your career.
(05:37):
Go ahead, place your pre order and send us an email job. I love that and I love the way that you phrased it. Increasing the pipeline because that's an area where I see a lot of struggle is getting enough women in the pipeline and then enough women thinking about that long term path, right? Because I, I, were talking before we started recording. I've worked in financial services a long time in tech, not a ton of female peerage in this space, right? And I remember this is a long time ago and this was a very well intentioned executive, but he was like would you come on recruiting trips with us? And I was like why? Why would you want me on recruiting trips? I was a data scientist at the time, very heads down type of role.
(06:18):
And he's like, well because you're a girl and we don't have any of those. And he was very well intentioned of like we want more women, we want them to come into the pipeline, we want to get this opportunity going. But like they see a bunch of dudes lined up and they don't want to talk to us. So like come with us and like help lure some women into like going into technology. And so I love phrasing of like increasing the pipeline because you're so right. I think whether it's a differentiation of skill type or industry type or desire to be that executive level, I definitely see that pipeline seems small in a lot of ways.
Tracy Newell (06:57):
It is small for a number of reasons and women are dropping out at all different levels along the way and so what helped me is exactly what you just said, Kendall. So I got involved in diversity for exactly the same reason. They didn't call me a. They said, we need more women in tech. But I was a second line manager at Cisco and started participating in leading a lot of diversity efforts because women, when they see people like them in those roles, are more likely to say, well, maybe me too. So for anyone listening to this podcast, I would highly encourage you if your company does anything around women's diversity, join, go there. Because the people I feature, I do a bunch of tributes to these amazing women that I've been fortunate enough to work alongside of throughout the last couple of decades.
(07:45):
And I met them in women's diversity events and we kind of grew up together. And then, you know, now they're all paying it forward, trying to help other women to do the same thing.
Kendall Berg (07:56):
Yeah. And that's such a great call out that you should be involved in DEI and engagement. This is a big passion of mine and I think sometimes it gets. Sometimes we discount our own work because we think, oh, well, it's just. It's just an ERG engagement, or I'm just helping with the EI project, or I just planned an event. But the reality is that not just what it does for your company, but what it does for you from a connectivity perspective is so key. And you really touched on something there with, like, having female mentors and female peers to lean on. And I'll share a quick anecdote. When I had my daughter or when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was panicked because I'm a career woman. I knew that I was going to be corporate executive till I died.
(08:37):
Like, that was always the path. And I was like, but my career is going to end. I'm gonna have a baby, and I'm not gonna be able to work late anymore. I'm not gonna be able to do these things. I remember a friend of mine who was an executive. She was like, one you're not gonna care about any of that once the baby's born. She's like, I know that's like, kind of rude to say, but, like, you'll feel very different in, like, two months. So take a breath. She's like, but also, if you want your career to be that way, then plan what it looks like. You can make it happen. You just have to be intentional with your time. We were talking about that before the episode.
(09:06):
So what are some of the ways that people who are listening, who are feeling like, man, but I don't know If I see that path for myself or I don't know if I could do that, what does building your path forward, that intentionality really look?
Tracy Newell (09:18):
So you touched on mentors. And I do think if you don't have a mentor inside of your organization or outside, because mentors can be outside of your too, you should get one you shouldn't be intentional about. And I get asked all the time, how do I do that? Well, it starts by thinking through what are a couple of things you want to work on. It could be, I don't know what my career path is. If someone knows you well, they can help coach you through that by asking open ended questions and giving yourself permission to dream a little bit. I think that's really important. Once you have a person in mind that you think would be a good mentor for you, usually one or two levels above where you are now, you know, just think about reaching out.
(09:58):
You don't have to, you know, saying will you be my mentor? Could be intimidating to people. It could be a lot less, less formal than that. So perhaps you just send them an email, a text to Slack that says, hey, I really look up to you and I would love some career advice. Can I get 15 or 20 minutes with you? Most people are going to say yes to 15 or 20 minutes and then once you've got that meeting scheduled, you own the agenda. Nobody else owns it because you've asked for the time. So think about one or two open ended questions. You know, I'd like to get promoted in the next 12 to 18 months. What are some of the things that are holding me back that I should work on? Best practices on how you got promoted.
(10:35):
So think about what that agenda looks like and then leverage that time. Take notes, send a follow up and ask for a follow up meeting when you do. And pretty soon if you do that once or twice, then you'll learn a lot. It can change your career. Some of the mentors I've had have changed my career. I would also add women tend to want women mentors, which is great for what you brought up, which is work, life, balance, family. I have two kids that are no longer kids. They're now 27 and 30 year olds. And there was many times in my life where I ruined that. I was making terrible choices, you know, how could I have this big career and still be a good mom and a good wife?
(11:14):
I'm happy to say if I don't talk to my girls every day, something's wrong. So you know, I, you can have both and we could spend more time on that, but definitely get a mentor. Definitely think about, ask questions that are open ended about. And thinking about five to ten years from now, what would be that big giant job or goal that you might have and use the mentor to help you start building steps today to get to that next role.
Kendall Berg (11:43):
That's great advice. And whether you have a female mentor or a male mentor. I've had male mentors who've shaped my career in a million different ways. And I had a female mentor at that time where I was feeling a little overwhelmed from the family side. That helps. And so definitely something that I recommend as well. I think one of the things you and I had been chatting about before we started recording is I used to have a mentor at a conference company that I worked at who did a lot of speaking on behalf of the company, lots of leadership advice.
(12:08):
And I remember I sat through a session with her once where she talked about how she had an accidental career and she talked about how she just showed up, she did a great job, and then she ended up in the C suite because she just accidentally kind of stumbled upon it. And I remember thinking at the time, like, that's such bad advice to give a bunch of junior people, like, hey, don't plan anything out. Just show up every day, work really hard and like, maybe you'll get lucky and end up in the C suite. And I just, I don't think that's feasible. Right. Most of my content and my platform is spent saying like, that's definitely not how it works.
(12:42):
I'd love to hear your perspective when it comes to long term trying to break into the C suite, which is not an easy jump to make. What are some of the tips to do that and how much intentionality does it really take? Like, do you accidentally stumble into it or do you have to have that kind of forethought and that plan to get prepared for it?
Tracy Newell (13:01):
Well, so I agree with you. There's been countless studies that have been done showing that women actually do fall into this trap of lack of intentionality. I will just work really hard, put my head down, not create a lot of noise, and everyone's going to notice that I'm the hardest worker and I'll get promoted. And I do think to move forward in your career, you actually have to be intentional. I remember one time I had been told several times in my fees, hey, I put you up for a promotion. And I to a vice president at Cisco and I replied, no, that's okay, I'm good, I Don't need to be promoted. Because in my mind, I had this idea that if I took a big job, I would never see my children again. I'd have to travel 80% of the time.
(13:44):
And I've looked at a lot of job requisitions and I've never seen one that says, you will never see your family again and you will travel 80% of your time like this. We make up these crazy stories. And then I finally did tell my boss, hey, there's a VP job and I want that. And he said, well, it doesn't work that way. You have to actually like, let me know, give me 12 months. Glideway. And I have to work across the company to share. Hey, she really wants to do more. She can go up a level or two. So give me some time and that job, I'll help you get that job. And that's where mentors can really come into play in a very big way, advocating for you. So for those of you that aspire to do more, I would really encourage you.
(14:27):
One, you've got to spend time thinking about it being intentional. In 10 years, would you consider being a GM for a company or would you consider running a business unit? Would you consider running sales or being a cfo? And if there's even a small possibility of answering yes, well, then you can use the mentors and your friends, your peers, your manager's manager to say, hey, I want to do this down the road. What's a project I could take on that would give me additional visibility? Who could I shadow to see what that job is really like? You know, how can I get to the next level working for you? I want to be you someday in the next 12 to 24 months. What would I need to work on? Give me three things.
(15:10):
And when people know you aspire to do more, then they start watching you differently, they start thinking about you differently, and they start advocating for you.
Kendall Berg (15:18):
Yeah. And giving notice is really important there. Right? To your point, nothing happens overnight. Somebody comes to me and says, hey, I want to get promoted this cycle. And this cycle was technically three months ago because it's going to be announced this month. We're too late, right? We've missed a boat. So it's definitely true that you need to set that up, that 12 months notice. And it's funny that you mentioned, like, tell your boss, like, hey, I want to be you someday. And like, how do I get there? When I was very early on in my career, I was interviewed by a CFO and I was fresh out of college, had never had a quote, unquote, big girl job. And I remember he asked, like, what's your plan? Like, what do you want to be when you grow up?
(15:55):
And I said, I want to sit in your seat. And I look back, and I was like, that was not the time or place. So, like, make sure you're. You're catering your communication at the right time. You're advocating in the right way. But I remember he did. He hired me to work as his right hand as basically an internal consultant for my first job ever out of college. And I had never worked in corporate. And all of a sudden I have the CFO walking to my desk 10 times a day like, hey, I need you to go fix this problem, or, hey. And so you're right that I think it. It starts with, you have to know yourself. You have to know your vision. You have to know where you're going.
(16:27):
And then you have to get a big group of people who are all willing to fight for you to go in that same direction. So when that does happen and you get offered. You said you were offered multiple VP roles. You're like, no, thanks, I'm good. How does imposter syndrome play into that? Right. Because it's a very hot topic right now. Imposter syndrome seems to be a very significant factor holding women back. How do you kind of guide people to work through this fear of feeling like maybe they're not good enough or they haven't done that before, they don't have that experience so that they can go in confidently into those new roles.
Tracy Newell (16:59):
So I would bet, Kendall, if you went to ask your former cfo, how did he feel when you said, I want to be you someday? I bet he loved that. Because we love to hire people that want to do. Be exceptional in their current job so they can get to the next job? And I do want to underscore, you have to be really good at your current job. Like, you have to. You have to be able to differentiate there, too, to get that next job. No, imposter syndrome is very real. It's amazing to me. I work with women at all different levels. You know, executives leading Fortune 500 companies. And when you ask them, hey, do you want to go do this next? Whatever this is? They'll say, gosh, I don't, you know, inside, am I good enough?
(17:39):
And I'm thinking, gosh, if you don't think you're good enough. So it's quite real. And I think the easiest way to combat that is, again, to get Clear on your vision and then to start just methodically working backwards to what would I have to do? What are the skills to get to that big giant goal? So if I wanted to be a cfo, what are the skills that are required for a cfo? And then how does that map to the skills I currently have and where are their gaps? And I don't have to solve those. I don't have to solve those in a minute. There's not too many CEOs that got out of bed at 18 years old and said, okay, I'm ready to start my own company. There's a few, but not very many.
(18:20):
Most of them learned one job at a time and they learned through experience. And so as you start to think through where you want to end up, then you can start backing in along the way. Even when life is a little busy and a little messy, sometimes you can still work on adding one new skill set over the course of six to 12 months. That gets you a little bit closer to that bigger job.
Kendall Berg (18:45):
I always tell my high performing female clients that imposter syndrome is not necessarily that you're not good enough. It's that you're afraid you can't learn the new thing for sure. You free frame it that way in your head. Could you learn that thing? Very rarely do any of my female counterparts say, well, no, I'm incapable of learning how to do that. And I love your point about like CFO didn't wake up one day and go, okay, it's time I have been born. I reference in my book, you know, coming out of the womb in a three piece suit, ready to sit at the boardroom. Like nobody does that. Right. This is like a learned skill over many years and lots of time. And so if you are intentional, you can close those skill gaps and those experience gaps. Right.
(19:26):
CEOs most commonly come from some combination of marketing and sales. Most commonly. Not to say all the time. But if you want to be a CEO, should probably spend some time in marketing, probably spend some time in the sales side. If you want to be a CEO, should probably spend time in different spaces of operations. Probably a little time in finance. Right. And getting that cross training too, so that you're ready for those executive.
Tracy Newell (19:49):
Yeah, for sure. We all have that inner voice which is all imposter syndrome is. And imposter syndrome is just trying to protect us from failure. You know, what if I try to do this big thing and it doesn't work out? Gosh, I'll feel dumb. People will look at me differently. And the reality is none of that's true, you know, so most successful people have had lots more failures than they've had wins. And yet the key is they tried. And as you build your skills along the way, that little voice will get quieter and you can continue on in your journey. So, yeah, the best way to deal through imposter syndrome is just to ignore it and then get focused on the facts and things that you can control. And gathering those experiences really chunk it.
Kendall Berg (20:29):
Into, like those micro goals, right. That like, build up over time. I love that. So despite the fact that we've made lots of progress as a society, I still want more women sitting in boardroom seats and in C suite. I'm sure you do as well. So how do we help accelerate that change? How do we help create more opportunities for women in these leadership roles or as women? How do we start to create those opportunities for ourselves?
Tracy Newell (20:54):
Yeah, so it's pretty incredible. If you look at the Russell 3000, which is 3,000 companies in the United States, as of 2023, 16% of the named executive officers were women. So that means 84 out of 100 were not women. And so thus my opening comments. I think we need more pipeline. And to me, the way we get more pipeline is encouraging more women like you to say, hey, I can do this. I can lead companies someday. And perhaps just as importantly, I want to. Is it worth it? Because early in your career, as I've said a few times, for me, life was a little chaotic and it could be a little overwhelming. I'm just trying to get through the day as I'm learning at the fastest pace I can run to while dealing, you know, juggling many balls outside of my career.
(21:40):
And yet it won't always be that way. It's a point in time. So 10 or 15 years from now, there will be an opportunity for you. And the goal is to get more people like you to think bigger and broader and then to surround them with the people and the experiences, the skills to help you set yourself apart from the pack. I said earlier, you have to be great at what you do in terms of being a leader to get to that next job. And so I spend a lot of time like you do, coaching people on things like, how do you set a North Star in your current role? How do you set an objective and a goal that is big enough that when you achieve that, you're going to be proud, Your team is going to be proud.
(22:21):
Perhaps your team might be surprised because they didn't know that they could achieve what they, what you just did. But also everyone around you is going to be setting, going to be watching, saying, look what this person just did. You know, hiring strategies are really important. We touched on mentoring is really important. Setting up a board of advisors, which is a little broader than mentoring, can also make a big difference. I think learning from people around you that you admire could be peers. It could be your boss, you know, or their boss. But picking up these executive skills along the way will really help you to step on the fast track of your journey.
Kendall Berg (22:59):
So what would you say are some of those most important executive skills? Right, because I, I'm kind of a believer that the skills that are most important to do your job kind of evolve as you progress and as you become more senior, the skills that are going to make you really successful kind of change with seniority. So what does that kind of look like to you? If somebody's listening to this and they're like, okay, I'm middle management right now. I've decided I want to go pursue that executive level. Like, what are some of those skills that you believe outside of their core job, they should focus on developing if they want to open that path for themselves.
Tracy Newell (23:32):
Yeah. So I had just joined a new company and I was asking, I was doing a call to action, but I'd literally just joined. I was talking to my CEO at the time and I was reviewing just to make sure I was on point. And the call to action said, you know, have a stretch plan, you know, have like a big goal. And he said, can I just ask people to have a plan? And I started laughing. I go, what are you talking about? He said, most people don't have a plan. Like, if it's not in writing, it's not a plan. So I think first and foremost, if you think about, you know, say your CEO or the person at the head of your function that you work with, they have a plan, they have a big goal. And so that's what executives do.
(24:08):
They are paid to help change the trajectory of their company within their responsibility level. And so what is your big goal? And that could be for an individual contributor, for a manager, for a senior manager, or for a senior vice president. But what is your big goal and is it in writing? What are the three initiatives that will support that big goal? Is your team bought into that? Were they involved as you created your plan? That's in writing. Was your boss or their boss involved in the plan? Because they should because you need their buy in and then cross functionally Great leaders work through influence really well. You know, for instance, I grew up in sales, but I never built a plan that didn't involve marketing, that didn't involve customer service, that didn't involve product management, engineering.
(24:53):
Because I needed the whole company to agree with my plan and then help me help my team to build success around that plan. So setting big goals, great collaboration and influence management skills, really strong communication skills. Once you have a plan, it's in writing, communicating progress along the way and having metrics to track progress along the way. And then I've created a new job title for people that I like a lot. If you want to do more inside of your company, your new job title should be cps. I really want you to be the chief problem solver within your organization because you all see it every day. There's people raising their hand going, kendall, I need help with this, or Kendall, this is broken.
(25:34):
What I always looked for is someone who would come to me and say, you know, I've noticed this is broken and can I work on this for the team? Because it'll help me and it'll help everyone else. And, you know, I really think I need marketing and I need product management. I need all these other groups. So I'm going to pick one or two and can I come back to you in a month or three months and we'll all tell you the progress we've made? When you show up with those kinds of skills, there's no stopping you. Everybody's going to be trying to get you on their team. Yes.
Kendall Berg (26:02):
I don't know that I've ever heard it articulated quite that clearly, but a thousand percent agree with you. Right. A lot of people come to me and they're like, well, I don't manage people. I'm an individual contributor director, an individual contributor VP and never manage people. How do I show that I'm ready to take on more executive leadership? You have great influence and great communication skills. Management is just influence communication skills with people who have to listen to you as opposed to as an ICN collaboration. It's a lot about influencing people who don't have to listen to you and trying to get them aligned with your idea. And I love this CPS acronym because there's so many.
(26:36):
The big shift that I think happens that differentiates high performers from everybody else is high performers identify problems and proactively solve them, whether they're in their scope or not. And everybody else waits to be asked. And that alone really starts to set that shift. Because to your point of I'VE worked in jobs where I started. I said, why do we do it this way? Oh, we've always done it that way. Like, well, it doesn't seem really efficient. We should fix it. And they're like, oh, well, nobody's going to fix that. And I'm like, well, I could fix it. Would we do it a different way if it got fixed? And people are like, well, yes. I'm like, great, let's do that then. Right? So I love that.
(27:12):
I think that is definitely a clear stare step to how do you really start to build that? I think a lot of people get stuck on executive presence, but I was actually kind of happy to hear you not mention that because to me, executive presence is like this weird, nebulous term we made up for having good influence, communication and problem solving skills. And like, when you have all three of those, you tend to have better executive presence. And when you don't, you tend to struggle. So I loved hearing that. So if people are listening to this and they're like, okay, you've convinced me, CEO is my future title, what is something that they could go do tomorrow to really jumpstart this journey towards breaking into the C suite? What's one tactical thing you would have them go do?
Tracy Newell (27:53):
Well, I love that you use the word tactical because I was going to use the same word. So I believe in being strategically practical and tactical. So once you've got your big giant goal, start breaking that down into what could you do this year? What skills can you add to your portfolio this year? Who can you communicate to this year to say, this is my bigger goal? And the obvious next step is in 12 to 18 months from now, I'd like to take on some more responsibility. So what is a project that is strategic to you, whom you're talking to, that you could take on to go show what you're capable of achieving and just make progress towards adding those skills to your repertoire while also holding people accountable. That if I do these three things, I want to get to that next level.
(28:43):
And when you communicate your long term goal, people will absolutely look at you differently and advocate for you behind closed doors, which is important too.
Kendall Berg (28:53):
That's awesome. Yes, totally agree. Well, Tracy, this was an amazing chat. I feel like we covered a lot of topics that were all great. So if people are listening and they're like, yes, I want to learn more about Tracy. I want to get a copy of her book. Here's for hers for the taking. Where do they go? Where do you want them? And how can they get in touch with you.
Tracy Newell (29:11):
Yeah. So hers for the Taking is on Amazon under Tracy Newell. You can also go to my website, which is tracy-newell.com to learn more. And I just want to thank you for your time today, Kendall. And Kendall, thank you for everything that you're doing to help others along the way.
Kendall Berg (29:27):
I so appreciate that. We will link all of this in the show notes so that anybody listening can go check it out. I have loved having you on the podcast. We are definitely going to have to stay in touch and have you back in the future as well. But if you guys like today's episode, go ahead and rate us 5 stars. Leave any questions you have for Tracy or I below in the comments. Otherwise, we'll see you back next week for another great episode. Thanks again, Tracy.
Tracy Newell (29:47):
Thank you.
If you look at the Russell 3000, which is 3,000 companies in the United States, as of 2023, 16% of the named executive officers were women. So that means 84 out of 100 were not women. And so thus my opening comments. I think we need more pipeline. And to me, the way we get more pipeline is encouraging more women like you to say, hey, I can do this. I can lead companies someday. And perhaps just as importantly, I want to. Is it worth it? Because early in your career, as I've said a few times, for me, life was a little chaotic and it could be a little overwhelming. I'm just trying to get through the day as I'm learning at the fastest pace I can run to while dealing, you know, juggling many balls outside of my career.
(00:44):
And yet it won't always be that way. It's a point in time. So 10 or 15 years from now, there will be an opportunity for you. And the goal is to get more people like you to think bigger and broader and then to surround them with the people and the experiences and skills to help you set yourself apart from the pack.
Kendall Berg (01:03):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing. On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster. Hello. Hello. I am super excited about our podcast episode today. We have Tracy Newell with us. She is going to be such a wealth of knowledge. We're going to be talking about the path to C suite for her new book, which is hers for the taking your path to the C suite and beyond, which we're really jazzed about.
(01:44):
She has specialized in accelerating go to market teams and top line revenue growth. She has sat on the board for five huge companies. SailPoint, Druva, HighSpot, DataRobot, and Deepwatch. She's the former president of Informatica. Like she has so much amazing experience. So Tracy, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
Tracy Newell (02:02):
Well, Kendall, you are super kind and I'm thrilled to be here.
Kendall Berg (02:05):
Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell listeners a little bit about your background, what that journey looked like for you for how you got to where you are today.
Tracy Newell (02:13):
Yeah, I grew up at really big companies and I just kept going to smaller companies. I started at&T and Cisco and was running billion dollar businesses for Cisco and took over sales for WebEx back when there were two SaaS companies, WebEx and Salesforce.com and that kind of changed my career forever. So I just started going to smaller organizations and ended up being an officer for a couple of public companies, Polycom and Proofpoint. And from there I decided I wanted to do board work. I've been on several boards since then and I just love, love technology. I love leading and I like, I love helping others to succeed.
Kendall Berg (02:48):
I absolutely love that. It's so interesting. I started my career at&T as well a million years ago. And we won't go quite so far back in like the Southwestern Bell days and all of those things. So. But I'd love to chat. You've had a really successful career. You've progressed very quickly. Large companies and small companies. What do you think is the leading reason why women aren't getting to that C suite level or getting there enough? And what are some of the things that they can do and we can do to start changing some of that?
Tracy Newell (03:18):
Well, Kendyl, that was really the inspiration as to why I decided to write a book. I've spent 30 years helping women and leading diversity efforts to get more women into technology. And yet, as you know, it's a really tough problem because engineering companies don't have a lot of women in them. And what I've come to appreciate is that, and that's really what the book is about is I really think to get more women into the C suite and into the boardroom, we have to increase the pipeline, which means we need more people like you to start thinking about doing those executive level jobs when you're still early on in your career. And I recognize that's asking a lot because when I was early on in my career, I had two little kids under 6 years old.
(03:59):
I was just trying to make it through the day. And yet it was someone who asked me when I was 35, would you run a company sales organization for a company like Cisco? And I looked at them like 35, like, I couldn't do that. I can't travel, I can't. You know, I had so many reasons. And my mentor at the time said, well, would you do it 10 or 15 years from now? And I kind of paused and I gulped and I said, well, maybe thinking I don't know how I would be ready for that. And she said, well, plan your career now as if you're going to do that in 10 or 15 years.
(04:38):
So give yourself Permission to dream and to think really big and then get the experiences over the next decade so that when, you know, in my case when my kids were grown, I was willing and able to take that big job.
Kendall Berg (04:51):
If you have been eagerly awaiting the Secrets of the Career Game book, it is officially available for pre order. This book will go over 36 strategies for building success in your career and honestly is some of my best lessons, best templates, best and best ways for you to start to get the success and the progression in your career that you deserve. If you do pre order the book, make sure that you email a screenshot of your Pre order to thatcareercoachmail.com in order to be added to our top secret community. In that community, you'll have access to me as well as 2 live Q& A sessions. When the book launches, you'll also get an extra early copy with the first chapter of the book. For you. To read ahead, go to Amazon, Find Secrets of the career game 36 Strategies for your career.
(05:37):
Go ahead, place your pre order and send us an email job. I love that and I love the way that you phrased it. Increasing the pipeline because that's an area where I see a lot of struggle is getting enough women in the pipeline and then enough women thinking about that long term path, right? Because I, I, were talking before we started recording. I've worked in financial services a long time in tech, not a ton of female peerage in this space, right? And I remember this is a long time ago and this was a very well intentioned executive, but he was like would you come on recruiting trips with us? And I was like why? Why would you want me on recruiting trips? I was a data scientist at the time, very heads down type of role.
(06:18):
And he's like, well because you're a girl and we don't have any of those. And he was very well intentioned of like we want more women, we want them to come into the pipeline, we want to get this opportunity going. But like they see a bunch of dudes lined up and they don't want to talk to us. So like come with us and like help lure some women into like going into technology. And so I love phrasing of like increasing the pipeline because you're so right. I think whether it's a differentiation of skill type or industry type or desire to be that executive level, I definitely see that pipeline seems small in a lot of ways.
Tracy Newell (06:57):
It is small for a number of reasons and women are dropping out at all different levels along the way and so what helped me is exactly what you just said, Kendall. So I got involved in diversity for exactly the same reason. They didn't call me a. They said, we need more women in tech. But I was a second line manager at Cisco and started participating in leading a lot of diversity efforts because women, when they see people like them in those roles, are more likely to say, well, maybe me too. So for anyone listening to this podcast, I would highly encourage you if your company does anything around women's diversity, join, go there. Because the people I feature, I do a bunch of tributes to these amazing women that I've been fortunate enough to work alongside of throughout the last couple of decades.
(07:45):
And I met them in women's diversity events and we kind of grew up together. And then, you know, now they're all paying it forward, trying to help other women to do the same thing.
Kendall Berg (07:56):
Yeah. And that's such a great call out that you should be involved in DEI and engagement. This is a big passion of mine and I think sometimes it gets. Sometimes we discount our own work because we think, oh, well, it's just. It's just an ERG engagement, or I'm just helping with the EI project, or I just planned an event. But the reality is that not just what it does for your company, but what it does for you from a connectivity perspective is so key. And you really touched on something there with, like, having female mentors and female peers to lean on. And I'll share a quick anecdote. When I had my daughter or when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was panicked because I'm a career woman. I knew that I was going to be corporate executive till I died.
(08:37):
Like, that was always the path. And I was like, but my career is going to end. I'm gonna have a baby, and I'm not gonna be able to work late anymore. I'm not gonna be able to do these things. I remember a friend of mine who was an executive. She was like, one you're not gonna care about any of that once the baby's born. She's like, I know that's like, kind of rude to say, but, like, you'll feel very different in, like, two months. So take a breath. She's like, but also, if you want your career to be that way, then plan what it looks like. You can make it happen. You just have to be intentional with your time. We were talking about that before the episode.
(09:06):
So what are some of the ways that people who are listening, who are feeling like, man, but I don't know If I see that path for myself or I don't know if I could do that, what does building your path forward, that intentionality really look?
Tracy Newell (09:18):
So you touched on mentors. And I do think if you don't have a mentor inside of your organization or outside, because mentors can be outside of your too, you should get one you shouldn't be intentional about. And I get asked all the time, how do I do that? Well, it starts by thinking through what are a couple of things you want to work on. It could be, I don't know what my career path is. If someone knows you well, they can help coach you through that by asking open ended questions and giving yourself permission to dream a little bit. I think that's really important. Once you have a person in mind that you think would be a good mentor for you, usually one or two levels above where you are now, you know, just think about reaching out.
(09:58):
You don't have to, you know, saying will you be my mentor? Could be intimidating to people. It could be a lot less, less formal than that. So perhaps you just send them an email, a text to Slack that says, hey, I really look up to you and I would love some career advice. Can I get 15 or 20 minutes with you? Most people are going to say yes to 15 or 20 minutes and then once you've got that meeting scheduled, you own the agenda. Nobody else owns it because you've asked for the time. So think about one or two open ended questions. You know, I'd like to get promoted in the next 12 to 18 months. What are some of the things that are holding me back that I should work on? Best practices on how you got promoted.
(10:35):
So think about what that agenda looks like and then leverage that time. Take notes, send a follow up and ask for a follow up meeting when you do. And pretty soon if you do that once or twice, then you'll learn a lot. It can change your career. Some of the mentors I've had have changed my career. I would also add women tend to want women mentors, which is great for what you brought up, which is work, life, balance, family. I have two kids that are no longer kids. They're now 27 and 30 year olds. And there was many times in my life where I ruined that. I was making terrible choices, you know, how could I have this big career and still be a good mom and a good wife?
(11:14):
I'm happy to say if I don't talk to my girls every day, something's wrong. So you know, I, you can have both and we could spend more time on that, but definitely get a mentor. Definitely think about, ask questions that are open ended about. And thinking about five to ten years from now, what would be that big giant job or goal that you might have and use the mentor to help you start building steps today to get to that next role.
Kendall Berg (11:43):
That's great advice. And whether you have a female mentor or a male mentor. I've had male mentors who've shaped my career in a million different ways. And I had a female mentor at that time where I was feeling a little overwhelmed from the family side. That helps. And so definitely something that I recommend as well. I think one of the things you and I had been chatting about before we started recording is I used to have a mentor at a conference company that I worked at who did a lot of speaking on behalf of the company, lots of leadership advice.
(12:08):
And I remember I sat through a session with her once where she talked about how she had an accidental career and she talked about how she just showed up, she did a great job, and then she ended up in the C suite because she just accidentally kind of stumbled upon it. And I remember thinking at the time, like, that's such bad advice to give a bunch of junior people, like, hey, don't plan anything out. Just show up every day, work really hard and like, maybe you'll get lucky and end up in the C suite. And I just, I don't think that's feasible. Right. Most of my content and my platform is spent saying like, that's definitely not how it works.
(12:42):
I'd love to hear your perspective when it comes to long term trying to break into the C suite, which is not an easy jump to make. What are some of the tips to do that and how much intentionality does it really take? Like, do you accidentally stumble into it or do you have to have that kind of forethought and that plan to get prepared for it?
Tracy Newell (13:01):
Well, so I agree with you. There's been countless studies that have been done showing that women actually do fall into this trap of lack of intentionality. I will just work really hard, put my head down, not create a lot of noise, and everyone's going to notice that I'm the hardest worker and I'll get promoted. And I do think to move forward in your career, you actually have to be intentional. I remember one time I had been told several times in my fees, hey, I put you up for a promotion. And I to a vice president at Cisco and I replied, no, that's okay, I'm good, I Don't need to be promoted. Because in my mind, I had this idea that if I took a big job, I would never see my children again. I'd have to travel 80% of the time.
(13:44):
And I've looked at a lot of job requisitions and I've never seen one that says, you will never see your family again and you will travel 80% of your time like this. We make up these crazy stories. And then I finally did tell my boss, hey, there's a VP job and I want that. And he said, well, it doesn't work that way. You have to actually like, let me know, give me 12 months. Glideway. And I have to work across the company to share. Hey, she really wants to do more. She can go up a level or two. So give me some time and that job, I'll help you get that job. And that's where mentors can really come into play in a very big way, advocating for you. So for those of you that aspire to do more, I would really encourage you.
(14:27):
One, you've got to spend time thinking about it being intentional. In 10 years, would you consider being a GM for a company or would you consider running a business unit? Would you consider running sales or being a cfo? And if there's even a small possibility of answering yes, well, then you can use the mentors and your friends, your peers, your manager's manager to say, hey, I want to do this down the road. What's a project I could take on that would give me additional visibility? Who could I shadow to see what that job is really like? You know, how can I get to the next level working for you? I want to be you someday in the next 12 to 24 months. What would I need to work on? Give me three things.
(15:10):
And when people know you aspire to do more, then they start watching you differently, they start thinking about you differently, and they start advocating for you.
Kendall Berg (15:18):
Yeah. And giving notice is really important there. Right? To your point, nothing happens overnight. Somebody comes to me and says, hey, I want to get promoted this cycle. And this cycle was technically three months ago because it's going to be announced this month. We're too late, right? We've missed a boat. So it's definitely true that you need to set that up, that 12 months notice. And it's funny that you mentioned, like, tell your boss, like, hey, I want to be you someday. And like, how do I get there? When I was very early on in my career, I was interviewed by a CFO and I was fresh out of college, had never had a quote, unquote, big girl job. And I remember he asked, like, what's your plan? Like, what do you want to be when you grow up?
(15:55):
And I said, I want to sit in your seat. And I look back, and I was like, that was not the time or place. So, like, make sure you're. You're catering your communication at the right time. You're advocating in the right way. But I remember he did. He hired me to work as his right hand as basically an internal consultant for my first job ever out of college. And I had never worked in corporate. And all of a sudden I have the CFO walking to my desk 10 times a day like, hey, I need you to go fix this problem, or, hey. And so you're right that I think it. It starts with, you have to know yourself. You have to know your vision. You have to know where you're going.
(16:27):
And then you have to get a big group of people who are all willing to fight for you to go in that same direction. So when that does happen and you get offered. You said you were offered multiple VP roles. You're like, no, thanks, I'm good. How does imposter syndrome play into that? Right. Because it's a very hot topic right now. Imposter syndrome seems to be a very significant factor holding women back. How do you kind of guide people to work through this fear of feeling like maybe they're not good enough or they haven't done that before, they don't have that experience so that they can go in confidently into those new roles.
Tracy Newell (16:59):
So I would bet, Kendall, if you went to ask your former cfo, how did he feel when you said, I want to be you someday? I bet he loved that. Because we love to hire people that want to do. Be exceptional in their current job so they can get to the next job? And I do want to underscore, you have to be really good at your current job. Like, you have to. You have to be able to differentiate there, too, to get that next job. No, imposter syndrome is very real. It's amazing to me. I work with women at all different levels. You know, executives leading Fortune 500 companies. And when you ask them, hey, do you want to go do this next? Whatever this is? They'll say, gosh, I don't, you know, inside, am I good enough?
(17:39):
And I'm thinking, gosh, if you don't think you're good enough. So it's quite real. And I think the easiest way to combat that is, again, to get Clear on your vision and then to start just methodically working backwards to what would I have to do? What are the skills to get to that big giant goal? So if I wanted to be a cfo, what are the skills that are required for a cfo? And then how does that map to the skills I currently have and where are their gaps? And I don't have to solve those. I don't have to solve those in a minute. There's not too many CEOs that got out of bed at 18 years old and said, okay, I'm ready to start my own company. There's a few, but not very many.
(18:20):
Most of them learned one job at a time and they learned through experience. And so as you start to think through where you want to end up, then you can start backing in along the way. Even when life is a little busy and a little messy, sometimes you can still work on adding one new skill set over the course of six to 12 months. That gets you a little bit closer to that bigger job.
Kendall Berg (18:45):
I always tell my high performing female clients that imposter syndrome is not necessarily that you're not good enough. It's that you're afraid you can't learn the new thing for sure. You free frame it that way in your head. Could you learn that thing? Very rarely do any of my female counterparts say, well, no, I'm incapable of learning how to do that. And I love your point about like CFO didn't wake up one day and go, okay, it's time I have been born. I reference in my book, you know, coming out of the womb in a three piece suit, ready to sit at the boardroom. Like nobody does that. Right. This is like a learned skill over many years and lots of time. And so if you are intentional, you can close those skill gaps and those experience gaps. Right.
(19:26):
CEOs most commonly come from some combination of marketing and sales. Most commonly. Not to say all the time. But if you want to be a CEO, should probably spend some time in marketing, probably spend some time in the sales side. If you want to be a CEO, should probably spend time in different spaces of operations. Probably a little time in finance. Right. And getting that cross training too, so that you're ready for those executive.
Tracy Newell (19:49):
Yeah, for sure. We all have that inner voice which is all imposter syndrome is. And imposter syndrome is just trying to protect us from failure. You know, what if I try to do this big thing and it doesn't work out? Gosh, I'll feel dumb. People will look at me differently. And the reality is none of that's true, you know, so most successful people have had lots more failures than they've had wins. And yet the key is they tried. And as you build your skills along the way, that little voice will get quieter and you can continue on in your journey. So, yeah, the best way to deal through imposter syndrome is just to ignore it and then get focused on the facts and things that you can control. And gathering those experiences really chunk it.
Kendall Berg (20:29):
Into, like those micro goals, right. That like, build up over time. I love that. So despite the fact that we've made lots of progress as a society, I still want more women sitting in boardroom seats and in C suite. I'm sure you do as well. So how do we help accelerate that change? How do we help create more opportunities for women in these leadership roles or as women? How do we start to create those opportunities for ourselves?
Tracy Newell (20:54):
Yeah, so it's pretty incredible. If you look at the Russell 3000, which is 3,000 companies in the United States, as of 2023, 16% of the named executive officers were women. So that means 84 out of 100 were not women. And so thus my opening comments. I think we need more pipeline. And to me, the way we get more pipeline is encouraging more women like you to say, hey, I can do this. I can lead companies someday. And perhaps just as importantly, I want to. Is it worth it? Because early in your career, as I've said a few times, for me, life was a little chaotic and it could be a little overwhelming. I'm just trying to get through the day as I'm learning at the fastest pace I can run to while dealing, you know, juggling many balls outside of my career.
(21:40):
And yet it won't always be that way. It's a point in time. So 10 or 15 years from now, there will be an opportunity for you. And the goal is to get more people like you to think bigger and broader and then to surround them with the people and the experiences, the skills to help you set yourself apart from the pack. I said earlier, you have to be great at what you do in terms of being a leader to get to that next job. And so I spend a lot of time like you do, coaching people on things like, how do you set a North Star in your current role? How do you set an objective and a goal that is big enough that when you achieve that, you're going to be proud, Your team is going to be proud.
(22:21):
Perhaps your team might be surprised because they didn't know that they could achieve what they, what you just did. But also everyone around you is going to be setting, going to be watching, saying, look what this person just did. You know, hiring strategies are really important. We touched on mentoring is really important. Setting up a board of advisors, which is a little broader than mentoring, can also make a big difference. I think learning from people around you that you admire could be peers. It could be your boss, you know, or their boss. But picking up these executive skills along the way will really help you to step on the fast track of your journey.
Kendall Berg (22:59):
So what would you say are some of those most important executive skills? Right, because I, I'm kind of a believer that the skills that are most important to do your job kind of evolve as you progress and as you become more senior, the skills that are going to make you really successful kind of change with seniority. So what does that kind of look like to you? If somebody's listening to this and they're like, okay, I'm middle management right now. I've decided I want to go pursue that executive level. Like, what are some of those skills that you believe outside of their core job, they should focus on developing if they want to open that path for themselves.
Tracy Newell (23:32):
Yeah. So I had just joined a new company and I was asking, I was doing a call to action, but I'd literally just joined. I was talking to my CEO at the time and I was reviewing just to make sure I was on point. And the call to action said, you know, have a stretch plan, you know, have like a big goal. And he said, can I just ask people to have a plan? And I started laughing. I go, what are you talking about? He said, most people don't have a plan. Like, if it's not in writing, it's not a plan. So I think first and foremost, if you think about, you know, say your CEO or the person at the head of your function that you work with, they have a plan, they have a big goal. And so that's what executives do.
(24:08):
They are paid to help change the trajectory of their company within their responsibility level. And so what is your big goal? And that could be for an individual contributor, for a manager, for a senior manager, or for a senior vice president. But what is your big goal and is it in writing? What are the three initiatives that will support that big goal? Is your team bought into that? Were they involved as you created your plan? That's in writing. Was your boss or their boss involved in the plan? Because they should because you need their buy in and then cross functionally Great leaders work through influence really well. You know, for instance, I grew up in sales, but I never built a plan that didn't involve marketing, that didn't involve customer service, that didn't involve product management, engineering.
(24:53):
Because I needed the whole company to agree with my plan and then help me help my team to build success around that plan. So setting big goals, great collaboration and influence management skills, really strong communication skills. Once you have a plan, it's in writing, communicating progress along the way and having metrics to track progress along the way. And then I've created a new job title for people that I like a lot. If you want to do more inside of your company, your new job title should be cps. I really want you to be the chief problem solver within your organization because you all see it every day. There's people raising their hand going, kendall, I need help with this, or Kendall, this is broken.
(25:34):
What I always looked for is someone who would come to me and say, you know, I've noticed this is broken and can I work on this for the team? Because it'll help me and it'll help everyone else. And, you know, I really think I need marketing and I need product management. I need all these other groups. So I'm going to pick one or two and can I come back to you in a month or three months and we'll all tell you the progress we've made? When you show up with those kinds of skills, there's no stopping you. Everybody's going to be trying to get you on their team. Yes.
Kendall Berg (26:02):
I don't know that I've ever heard it articulated quite that clearly, but a thousand percent agree with you. Right. A lot of people come to me and they're like, well, I don't manage people. I'm an individual contributor director, an individual contributor VP and never manage people. How do I show that I'm ready to take on more executive leadership? You have great influence and great communication skills. Management is just influence communication skills with people who have to listen to you as opposed to as an ICN collaboration. It's a lot about influencing people who don't have to listen to you and trying to get them aligned with your idea. And I love this CPS acronym because there's so many.
(26:36):
The big shift that I think happens that differentiates high performers from everybody else is high performers identify problems and proactively solve them, whether they're in their scope or not. And everybody else waits to be asked. And that alone really starts to set that shift. Because to your point of I'VE worked in jobs where I started. I said, why do we do it this way? Oh, we've always done it that way. Like, well, it doesn't seem really efficient. We should fix it. And they're like, oh, well, nobody's going to fix that. And I'm like, well, I could fix it. Would we do it a different way if it got fixed? And people are like, well, yes. I'm like, great, let's do that then. Right? So I love that.
(27:12):
I think that is definitely a clear stare step to how do you really start to build that? I think a lot of people get stuck on executive presence, but I was actually kind of happy to hear you not mention that because to me, executive presence is like this weird, nebulous term we made up for having good influence, communication and problem solving skills. And like, when you have all three of those, you tend to have better executive presence. And when you don't, you tend to struggle. So I loved hearing that. So if people are listening to this and they're like, okay, you've convinced me, CEO is my future title, what is something that they could go do tomorrow to really jumpstart this journey towards breaking into the C suite? What's one tactical thing you would have them go do?
Tracy Newell (27:53):
Well, I love that you use the word tactical because I was going to use the same word. So I believe in being strategically practical and tactical. So once you've got your big giant goal, start breaking that down into what could you do this year? What skills can you add to your portfolio this year? Who can you communicate to this year to say, this is my bigger goal? And the obvious next step is in 12 to 18 months from now, I'd like to take on some more responsibility. So what is a project that is strategic to you, whom you're talking to, that you could take on to go show what you're capable of achieving and just make progress towards adding those skills to your repertoire while also holding people accountable. That if I do these three things, I want to get to that next level.
(28:43):
And when you communicate your long term goal, people will absolutely look at you differently and advocate for you behind closed doors, which is important too.
Kendall Berg (28:53):
That's awesome. Yes, totally agree. Well, Tracy, this was an amazing chat. I feel like we covered a lot of topics that were all great. So if people are listening and they're like, yes, I want to learn more about Tracy. I want to get a copy of her book. Here's for hers for the taking. Where do they go? Where do you want them? And how can they get in touch with you.
Tracy Newell (29:11):
Yeah. So hers for the Taking is on Amazon under Tracy Newell. You can also go to my website, which is tracy-newell.com to learn more. And I just want to thank you for your time today, Kendall. And Kendall, thank you for everything that you're doing to help others along the way.
Kendall Berg (29:27):
I so appreciate that. We will link all of this in the show notes so that anybody listening can go check it out. I have loved having you on the podcast. We are definitely going to have to stay in touch and have you back in the future as well. But if you guys like today's episode, go ahead and rate us 5 stars. Leave any questions you have for Tracy or I below in the comments. Otherwise, we'll see you back next week for another great episode. Thanks again, Tracy.
Tracy Newell (29:47):
Thank you.
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