June 2, 2025 • 38 mins
Kendall Berg pulls no punches in this conversation with certified life coach and communication expert Amy Green Smith. From the outside, high achievers seem like they have it all together—but beneath the promotions and packed calendars is a brewing identity crisis. Amy unpacks why burnout hits the most accomplished professionals the hardest—and how tying your self-worth to your performance is the fastest way to lose yourself.
People-pleasing isn’t just a “nice girl” habit. According to Amy, it’s a survival strategy many of us learned as kids—and it’s still running the show in the boardroom. Together, Kendall and Amy break down how to recognize those self-sabotaging behaviors, communicate assertively without coming off like a jerk, and set boundaries that actually stick. Plus, Amy offers her go-to scripts and practical tips to help listeners reclaim their bandwidth and emotional space.
In this episode, we discuss:
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How do I stop tying my identity to my job?
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What are signs that I’m a people-pleaser at work?
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How can I be assertive without being aggressive?
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What’s the right way to set boundaries in the workplace?
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How can high performers avoid burnout?
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That Career Coach
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Build out the tools you need to navigate the corporate game: — Self Driven Mastermind
Amy Green Smith is a certified and credentialed life coach and hypnotherapist, masterful speaker, and personal empowerment expert. Amy uses her roles as coach, writer, podcaster, and speaker to move individuals to a place of radical personal empowerment and self-worth.
With acute focus on helping people “find their voice”, she is highly sought after for her uncommon style of irreverence, wisdom, and humor and has been a featured expert in Inspired Coach Magazine and on Fox 5 San Diego.
website: https://amygreensmith.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heyamygreensmith
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Green Smith (00:00):
One of them is to avoid the word you if at all possible. And this is kind of antithetical to what a lot of therapists have taught in the past of like when you do this, here's how I feel. For example, if were in a meeting and like the anecdote you just shared, maybe tensions were getting heightened. Instead of saying it seems like you are really upset to say something like, it seems like tensions are a bit heightened at the moment. What do you say we take a little break and let's circle back and maybe 30 minutes or next week or whatever is applicable.
(00:32):
But I think one of the most important things what when you're dealing with difficult conversations where you may have opposing views than somebody else in the organization or you are petitioning for a raise or you even want to draw attention to what you have changed within the organization, get conversation consent at the beginning. None of us like being caught off guard.
Kendall Berg (00:59):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing. On this podcast we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster. Welcome back lovelies, to another fabulous episode. Today we have Amy Green Smith joining us. She is a certified and credentialed life coach and hypnotherapist. She's a masterful speaker and courageous communication expert. She is also founder of the Speak up for Yourself without being a Dick, which I feel like is going to resonate really well. On this podcast.
(01:47):
She has helped individuals move beyond limiting beliefs and sabotaging mindsets to a place of radical personal empowerment and self worth and ultimately really helps people find their voice. How to say no, how to set boundaries, how to step into that future self that they want to be. So welcome, Amy, we're so excited to have you.
Amy Green Smith (02:04):
Aw, thanks for having me, Kendall. It's always interesting hearing somebody read that back to you, but yeah, that's what I do.
Kendall Berg (02:10):
That's awesome. Well, why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself so they can get up to speed. So you started as more in the training space in the corporate world. You've now transition into this dynamic life coaching, standing up for yourself, anti people pleasing individual. What did that transition look like? And and how can people get excited about what we're going to talk about here?
Amy Green Smith (02:30):
Today, sure. So I kind of hit a quarter life crisis. That was sort of the impetus behind me getting involved in the personal development space. But, yeah, so in the early aughts, I was killing it as a corporate trainer for a prestige makeup brand. And I had, you know, kind of all the trappings of. Of big girl job and success, and had an assistant and a company car and was flying all over the world doing really incredible things, working backstage at fashion shows, and really kind of living into a dream that I had for a very long time. But as many of you know who are listening, a lot of times, as you begin to kind of climb that corporate ladder, the things that you once were so passionate about gets a little bit usurped by.
(03:19):
By the red tape and by the bureaucracy and about. And. And just how corporate works. And that really was this the same way for me. And I was in the company car, traveling around, commuting. It had become sort of like some golden handcuffs. This was, again, the. I feel like such a boomer. It was back in. During the time when, like, we. You could even to talk on your phone while you were driving. I know that's not, like, a thing anymore, but I would just be on my little Bluetooth, and we had a very intricate voicemail system where I would be calling all of my different managers in my store locations. So I had gotten very much into the habit of doing work on my commute, which was often quite lengthy.
(04:08):
And this one particular day, I was getting to a point where I was so burnt out, and I'd be up in the middle of the night working on lipstick spreadsheets and just really feeling like I was working my ass off for somebody else's dream, not really for my own. And I'm driving home one day, and I decide, you know what? I'm gonna listen to music. Because it had been literally years since I had even afforded myself that basic pleasure of listening to music in my car, because I had gotten so accustomed to using any available time, including my free time at home, as being available work time, right? So I'm in the car, and all of a sudden, Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway comes on. There's. I'm actually listening to the radio. I'm that old.
(04:55):
And Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway comes on, and I just start kind of like scream, Singing at the top of my lungs, like, I'll spread my wings, break, you know, and just all of a sudden, false lashes sliding down my face. I'm looking like the joker, just mess. And it dawned on me that was the first time I had done something just like the basic pleasure of enjoying music in a couple of years. So I get home and my sweet partner looks at me and he's like, oh my God, what happened to you? Because I look like, you know, total joker style. And, and I kind of held my fingers up like this, like I'm making a little for those who are listening, like I'm pinching something. And I said, I'm this close to completely losing myself.
(05:42):
And that really began the trajectory of, okay, I started taking stock of all the things that I loved about my work. Like, I love that I'm imparting wisdom, that I'm teaching and educating. So I want that to be a part of what I do in this next chapter. I need a creative element, of course, and I need to create some sort of massive impact. And it was a while till I really found what that looked like and kind of dabbled and a handful of things until I kind of landed in the lap of personal development. And that was in, I think I officially started my business in nine and then left everything, any other side job where I was sustaining myself completely on coaching in 2011. And there's been different niches in and out of that.
(06:26):
But now I, I really work with Gen X women leaders who are kind of on that precipice of burnout and how to avoid that by accessing your self worth and establishing really powerful boundaries. Love it.
Kendall Berg (06:40):
You're. You're such a fantastic storyteller because as you're saying this, I'm imagining my lashes just ripping down my face because I've been there usually at like 2am After a night out. But I'm a huge fan of this journey that you've been on because I think it is so relatable and it's so relevant because we become this cog in the machine, right? We become this high achieving version of ourselves whose identity exists in this title, right? And then we lose all sense of who we are, our boundaries, our self worth. We start to really spiral. And so knowing that you've experienced it, you've been there and now you've come out the other side and you're like, please let me help you. For the love of God, do not be that person. Like, listen to some music, it'll be fine. Your work can wait till tomorrow.
(07:30):
I love hearing that journey because I do think, you know, we talk a lot on the podcast about emotional distance to your job so that you're not too connected, you're not working too often and so this is kind of the other side of that, which I always say it's easy to create boundaries. It's really hard to maintain them.
Amy Green Smith (07:47):
Yes.
Kendall Berg (07:49):
And so it's one thing to sit in your car and be like, I'm gonna better and listen to music more. It's another thing to really redefine yourself and find a space to do that. So what did that, prior to that? What did that people pleasing look like for you? What does people pleasing look like for your clients? Because I'm sure there are people listening who are like, oh my God, I'm there. I'm like on the verge of losing it. Like, how do they identify that they're in that space and that they're doing that People pleasing over exertion that they don't need to do.
Amy Green Smith (08:21):
So this is interesting because I find that there's a very strong division between folks who identify as a people pleaser and people who do not. And I think it is sort of a disservice to how we describe that or what that really is about. And if we think about the trope of the people pleaser, we kind of think of that person as being maybe having a repressed posture, being, of course, introverted, very quiet, kind of blends in with the scenery. Certainly not an overachiever, certainly not in the C suite. And I think that's a really myopic view of what we're talking about. Because if you are someone who identifies as a perfectionist or really highly values control, it is highly likely that you have some detrimental people pleasing behaviors at play. But even my very best friend is like, you always talk about that.
(09:11):
And I, I don't think I'm a people pleaser. And I'm like, really? Are you highly invested in the opinions of other people? And she's like, oh, yeah. I'm like, welcome to people pleasing. But I think we also have to give ourselves a massive dose of compassion because it's quite literally how we're wired. So even if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for example, one of our primitive human needs is one of belonging. And that stems from our ancestors who had to belong to a group in order to survive. So if we didn't have social good, social standing or approval amongst our peers, that literally meant we would die. And so now, of course, we don't think that if Susan in accounting doesn't approve of us, we're actually going to die. But on a subconscious level, we register threat.
(09:59):
So there's a very real reason why we choose to put other people ahead of ourselves. And it's also something that keeps us safe. And we don't talk about that a lot when we discuss the people pleasing concept of how much it actually does come to our rescue. I mean, I'll just say as a blanket statement, I think most women out there know what it's like to appease or placate man so we don't get murdered. That's a perfect example of people pleasing right in order to stay safe. Many of us have those types of scenarios. If you're queer, you know, you might not want to wave your rainbow flag around a bunch of people who are ready to kill you. So there's tons of ways in which people pleasing actually is helpful for us.
(10:49):
But I would say that a large swath of us are bumping up against not clear and imminent danger, but rather a perceived fear of what might happen if somebody doesn't approve of us or doesn't like us. And that's the fear that we are responding to most frequently.
Kendall Berg (11:08):
Yeah, I love your definition here because I agree with you. I think the public opinion of a people pleaser is not somebody who's bold at executive level. But I work with so many high achieving people pleasers at the executive level. Right. And being willing to take enough space so that somebody doesn't like you is actually okay. I do think as an individual, if Susie from accounting hates me, I think I'm gonna die. I do. I feel that, like I register that deep in my bones. And I have a very good friend who she's like, well, why do you care? Like they don't have any relevance. And I'm like it because I care. Because that's a normal response to say like this person hates me and I don't understand why and I want to fix it. So I think your definition is spot on.
(11:52):
It's definitely something that I see all the time at the executive level as well, is people pleasing does help you in your career to an extent because you're solving other people's problems, you're helping make their lives easier and people appreciate that. But then there's definitely a threshold where we start to cross from, hey, people pleasing, mentai performing. And now people pleasing is holding me back from hitting that next level in my career, from maintaining work life balance, from going to my kids soccer game on Friday or whatever. The thing is, because we do get stuck and that happens. So how do people start to shift out of that? How do they start to find the right words to say to have the tough conversations to start to say no in a way that's not going to make them crash and burn.
(12:38):
Like, I love my good friend who's like why do you care? Just don't care. I'm like, that's so nice that your brain works that way of like I've just decided not to care. But for those of us whose brains don't work that way, how do we start to transition towards less of that people pleasing and really starting to set and maintain those boundaries.
Amy Green Smith (12:56):
Well, I think there's a couple of different directions we could go here. First off, I want to give you full permission to continue to care about what people think and I want you to be hyper vigilant about how that informs your behavior because those are two totally different things. I will all I want it to always sting if somebody says some rude comment about me because then I'm still feeling, I'm still able to be in touch with my emotional self. However, I don't want to be destroyed by it and I do not want that sort of commentary to make me perseverate for days upon days about what I should have done. I don't want it to be a referendum on my behavior. I want me to be the referendum on my behavior. So I the barometer is with me.
(13:44):
Am I proud of how I conducted myself? Of how I showed up? Yes or no? Not do they like me? Do they not like me if they don't like me? If they don't approve of me, I'm allowed to care. I'm allowed for that to hurt. However, that doesn't mean I go over there and force it into existence. Right? So it's about monitoring what do In the face of that. Caring what somebody thinks. Because I agree with you. I think it is. First of all, it's counterintuitive to how we are stay safe as humans. Many people listening can probably think back to possibly childhood years where making sure that you were perfect or making sure that you were the kid who took care of everybody else made it so that you didn't get physically hurt by a parent or a caregiver.
(14:33):
So we don't adopt these behaviors for the fuck of it so that we're like, oh, I'm just going to get in my own career advancement way for the rest of my no, we don't do that. We do it so that we can get ahead of our situation. But I think one piece that we need to start with is to figure out where do we need to speak up in what category or what area? I've had plenty of clients who are in high leadership positions where they have no problem speaking up at work, but in their partnership or with their mom or with their adult children, forget about it. So it can be very common that we feel like we have an acumen around communication in one category of our life.
(15:16):
So one of the easiest places to figure out where do I need to speak up, or where do I need a boundary? Or to say no is if you take a little inventory of what are the things or with whom do I constantly complain. And I'm not talking about just venting because you had a tough day. I'm talking about something that is cyclical and habitual. So let's say, Kendall, you get home every day and your partner just bitches and bitches about this one coworker that he works with, right? And you know, you support him, whatever. But he comes back every day saying, so it's not just a one off venting session. We all need that, for sure. But if you are habitually complaining about someone or something and it would be a surprise to them, then that's on you.
(16:10):
So, so often we are speaking up, but we're speaking up to the wrong parties. We're not speaking up to the person who can actually do something about the grievance. So in that scenario, your partner is speaking up, but not to the person who can do a damn thing about it. So if it would be a surprise to that other party, either A, how you feel, or B, the intensity of how you feel, then that's on you. We need to at least give people the opportunity to be what we need. Sometimes they're going to show us real quickly they don't give a shit about being what we need. And then we have a different decision to be made. But if we've never given them the opportunity, then what we're doing is relegating ourselves to victimhood.
(16:54):
We're just saying, I can never be happy unless this person magically becomes awesome, understands everything that I need. And I know you've talked about that a lot too. I call it being the assertive wheel. You don't have to be squeaky and shrill like all the ridiculous monikers we give to women. But let's be the assertive wheel. Let's, like, honk our own horn. That's not the word. That's not the saying.
Kendall Berg (17:17):
I like it, though. I'm cool with it.
Amy Green Smith (17:25):
But. But people are so absorbed with what their task list is and what their KPIs are that they're not thinking about, like, oh, let me go gas up Kendall, because she just killed it on that presentation. So part of it is learning how to take up space. But I think the first item of business is looking at, where am I the most emotionally uncomfortable? Where am I bitching and moaning? Where am I frustrated? Where am I feeling resentful? Because our emotions are powerful messengers, and that will usually give you an indication of where and with whom I need to start being vocal.
Kendall Berg (18:04):
Amy, there's so many things that you just said that I love, especially honk your own horn, probably my favorite. We'll get T shirts made after this episode. No. So I think when this is something I talk about a lot when it comes to navigating a workplace is I'm going to use the company as an example first and the individual second. But a company that's not promoting you or that's not giving you a raise or that's not taking care of you, if you have not asked that company for those things, you're not giving the company the opportunity to be what you need. And to your point, you may ask, and they laugh in your face and they're like, yeah, you're not getting promoted anytime soon. You better tuck that dream away. In which case they're never going to be what you need.
(18:44):
You need to decide whether you stay or you leave. That's in your control. But you have to give them a chance, right? Most people wait until they're at their breaking point, and then they go, give this to me or I quit. And companies are like, okay, quit, enjoy, right? You got to give them time, and you got to give them an opportunity to be what you need. So I love that example. I think doing that with the individual is really powerful as well, but also somewhere where people need to be careful. And so I'd love to get your take on this. This is like the Kendall Berg opinion of. I am all for sharing your opinion. Things you need from people that they're not giving you how to effectively work together.
(19:25):
But I feel like a lot of the time that becomes very confrontational thinking, like, toxic boyfriend breakup of, like, you never give me what I need. And we're not speaking the same language. Like, I don't feel that is super constructive in the workplace, but I do feel like there's a way of, hey, in this meeting, I had an expectation that you would do this. Do you feel that's a reasonable expectation, or is this something that we need to talk about so that we can both move forward effectively together or, hey, I've noticed following this meeting, you and I have a lot of tension. Is there some expectation you had for me that I didn't fulfill that I need to fix in order for us to work together more effectively?
(20:04):
And so I'd love to hear your take on how to approach this assertiveness and taking up space, because this is an area where I see both sides get very slippery slope, where we're either silent or we're like, crying and shouting in a conference room, and there's very little in between. And I think in between is kind of where we need to live. So once we identify where we need to establish boundaries, where we need to say no, where we need to take up more space, how do we do that in, like, an effective, constructive way?
Amy Green Smith (20:34):
Oh, my gosh. I love this so much that you asked this, because I agree. And our lady Brene of House Brown would call that being a boundary bully. And I call it where self help goes wrong. Where. And there's a handful of ways it does, but one of them is where it's like, well, that's just my boundary and that's just what I need. And I'm just taking up space. And it's like, well, no, you're actually being an asshole and you're not creating enough collaborative space. And so there's a handful of ways to go about that. But first I need to say, speaking up for yourself does not equal being a dick. It does not equal being an asshole. It does not mean hurling insults. It does not mean screaming and yelling and throwing your weight around.
(21:18):
That has been a historically patriarchal way to live in authority. But there is so much more to be said for a confident assertiveness that is grounded and unswayed. And I think there are a couple of hacks that could be helpful in doing so. One of them is to avoid the word you if at all possible. And this is kind of antithetical to what a lot of therapists have. Have taught in the past of, like, when you do this, here's how I feel. If you can remove the you. And this is not a hard and fast rule, like, you have to do it. But for example, if were in a meeting and like, the anecdote you just shared, maybe tensions were getting heightened.
(22:00):
Instead of saying, it seems like you are really upset to say something like, it seems like tensions are a bit heightened at the moment. What do you say we take a little break and let's circle back in maybe 30 minutes or next week or whatever is applicable. But I think one of the most important things when you're dealing with difficult conversations where you may have opposing views than somebody else in the organization, or you are petitioning for a raise or you even want to draw attention to what you have changed within the organization. Get conversation consent at the beginning. None of us like being caught off guard. So if we're walking through the hallway and I'm like, Kendall, oh my gosh, I need to run something by you right real quick.
(22:49):
The other day when this happened, like, you're going to be like, we're already immediately go into our fight, flight, freeze, fawn response. We go into a stress response. And so that means that we usually are evasive, we flee, we're combative, we fight or we fawn, which is placating and people pleasing, or we just freeze and don't know what to do and we're just like, okay, yeah, sure. So if we get conversation consent, it might sound something like this, hey, Kendall, I don't feel fully settled about how things went down in the meeting a little earlier. And I don't know if that's happening for you as well.
(23:25):
Would you be up for having, I don't know, maybe a 30 minute chat just to kind of clear the air and make sure we're on the same page or we're still supporting the same team, not just saying we need to talk, demanding time, but actually prefacing the conversation on respect. And if the other person asks you what it's regarding, for the love of all things holy, just fucking tell them. Because we've all been on that. On the other side, when someone's like, oh, we need to talk and we're going to do it on Tuesday. And then all leading up until Tuesday, you're like ruminating, what would I do? What did I do? Just tell them. Just say, you know, it's just regarding the conversation we had in the sales meeting the other day and I'm just not feeling fully settled.
(24:11):
And then you can always saying things like that, like fully settled or not completely at peace or still feeling a little rocky. Those types of phrases share that you there's a problem without it being a aggressive attack, you're still saying what's true for you. And there's a lot of ways to do that. So dissenting in the middle of a meeting, if you don't share someone's opinion, you can simply say, you know, I don't share that perspective, but I appreciate that's yours or I respect that. That's yours. That is still a very diplomatic, kind way to say I don' Share that. And that works really well in your non work related life as well.
(24:54):
When your in laws want to bring up shit that you don't want to talk about or that is inappropriate in your family structure to say, you know what, that's actually something that we don't engage with here in our household, but I respect that you do. My request going forward is that you don't bring that up here when we're in this space or that topic doesn't come up when you're in this space. And you can also always just say you're not willing to engage in that conversation too. If something starts going off the rails, you can very clearly say, I don't share that perspective or I don't share that. That point of view. But we certainly don't need to get into that right now.
(25:31):
So depending on if it's an appropriate time for you to air it all out between the two of you, it might not be. But to say we can certainly discuss it, but I don't think right now is the most appropriate time. So there's a handful of hacks amongst that. That conversation there.
Kendall Berg (25:49):
Yeah. And it's so great what you're touching at because you're almost hinting at, you know, being assertive does not mean being argumentative. Being assertive does not necessarily mean being aggressive. Being assertive means being willing to represent your perspective in an environment and in a way that is going to be received positively. Because if somebody came at you and was like, hey, in that meeting, you really pissed me off, you're probably going to go pretty defensive.
Amy Green Smith (26:16):
Right.
Kendall Berg (26:16):
And so if we do that to other people, we're going to get a similar response. And so coming in with this like collaborative mindset, hey, I just need to get some clarity here. I need to work with you. Can, can we set some time apart? I just, I want to deep dive that meeting a little bit more, understand exactly what's going on so that we can work together effectively. So much more constructive. And I'll share a quick anecdote. I, I work a corporate job as well. I've talked about this on the POD before. An individual work with where I crafted an email talking about a problem. It somehow gets forwarded to one person and the blame gets put on this individual. Like, hey, in this email Kendall wrote, you're the problem. And this individual and I have a really good working relationship.
(26:55):
He Comes to me, he's like, hey, can we up on a phone? I got a really weird email. I need to chat with you about it. I'm like, yes, absolutely. Gives me a heads up. I know what's coming. I know what we're going to talk about. I have advanced notice.
Amy Green Smith (27:04):
Yes.
Kendall Berg (27:04):
We get on the call and he's like, I was really surprised to see this review. And I was like, hey, so there's a reason your name is not in this email. It's not about you. I was like, so I don't know how this got through the grapevine to be a you problem, but it's definitely not a you problem. It's related to this other issue. I will send a follow up email to your boss. My boss, I want it to be really clear that this was not a me versus you issue. I think you and I can work together to fix it, prevent it from happening again. But I'm really glad you brought this to my attention because we have to be able to work together. Right. And that repaired what could have been years of really high tensions in a working relationship. Right.
(27:48):
And it was because he brought it to me, asked for buy in ahead of time, was really open. I was also willing to receive that feedback, realize where I had gone wrong, correct the situation quickly. And so I think there is a place for this and there's a way to do it in a positive, constructive way. But it doesn't happen with the wrong language. Like you come in too hot to trot, that's gonna, it's gonna spiral that person up, it's gonna spiral you up. And then we're stuck in this cycle of now we hate each other more and a relationship is becoming increasingly damaged.
Amy Green Smith (28:20):
And this is why emotional intelligence is so unbelievably important. Because what you just described is about the body language and the tone of voice. It's not about exactly what is said as much as it is your intonation and how you're holding your body. So we know that scientifically, 93% of the impact of how we communicate comes through body and tone of voice. It doesn't mean people only retain 7% of what you hear. It just means the impact is created through our delivery. So sometimes I'll talk to clients and I'll say, well, they'll say, I did speak up. And I said, okay, but how? Well, I yelled and screamed, or I was really passive aggressive and I'm like, okay, well, how would you respond to you. What would you hear on the other end of that? Especially if you're passive aggressive.
(29:15):
So I'll tell you, I had a client who really was like, many folks who are incredible high achievers, they get penalized for being excellent where it's. If you don't speak up, they think either, A, that it's stupid, super easy for you to take all the work on, or B, you like it, you want to do it, you're that controlling that you need to do it your specific way. So they go, oh, give it to Kendall. Give it to Kendall. Give it to Kendall. Give it to Amy, give it to Amy. So this client was very much this way, and she would speak up, and she's very loud and very gregarious, and she's given me the permission to share. But she would say, like, oh, sure, just give it to her. I'll take it. Just give it. Let's say her name is Sarah.
(29:54):
Just give it to Sarah. So Sarah will do it all. And so she was being vocal, but she was presenting it as a joke. So expect it to be taken as a joke. Because the natural logical perspective on the other side is I'm sure if it was that big of a deal to Sarah, she would say something that makes total logical sense. But we're over here expecting people to interpret our behavior as I'm approaching burnout, or I'm at my wit's end. They're not going to know that unless you quite literally spell that out. So we talked about it, and she had tried a different couple of different tactics. She goes in and she has a really vulnerable conversation, which is exactly what you illustrated with your coworker. And she says, hey, listen, I'd like to think that I make this look really easy.
(30:47):
The truth is that the amount of work that I'm carrying is really untenable. And I want to give you a little perspective about what it is like on my end, the implications of taking care of da, da, da. And she also came with solutions, right, which is what you need to do. But there were a couple of things here that she was really clear and she was vulnerable. A lot of times we want to come in and we want to only talk about the tactical strategy when we know that as humans, the every single decision we make is based off of how we want to feel. We would like to think that it's all logic, reason, and it's not that limbic system is going off about feelings, feelings. But we try to pretend that it's not.
(31:32):
So going in there and just soft I'm not talking about saying, oh, I stole from a convenience store when I was 4, and, you know, not that type of vulnerability. I'm talking about just stating what's real for you and using vulnerability as a tool as long as it's safe and it's not weaponized by the person that you are engaging with. But to say, hey, listen, I don't think that I've been as vocal about how difficult this has been. Truth be told, I want you to see me as somebody who's highly competent and capable, and I think I've proven that. However, I need to express that this level of workload and this amount of labor is untenable and unsustainable for me and I will eventually need to look for alternative options. However, that's not my ideal.
(32:25):
My ideal situation would be for us to partner and to figure out exactly how we can all thrive and increase. The bottom line, right? So there's tons of ways to say it, but none of that is combative. And it's also so much safer when you know you can trust what somebody is saying. When you are not just blowing smoke up someone's ass, like, no, it's great. I love it. No, I can handle all of it. When you are really a true vulnerable person, in a safe way of saying, I don't know if that's going to be possible at that deadline. I would love to think that it can be, but that's going to mean probably a few sleepless nights. And I'm not being hyperbolic, and I don't know if that's a fair request of our team. Right. Like, that's vulnerable. And it's true.
(33:15):
And it's saying, we need to find an alternative solution. So, yeah, lots to be said for vulnerability. This.
Kendall Berg (33:23):
This is so great. I feel like, Amy, you and I could talk for like three days because there's so many things that you're saying that I'm like, yes, I want to spend more time on this because it is. Is so important to be willing to share. And one of the things I talk about in my book is I have a secret in the Secrets of the Career Game that says your boss has no idea what you're working on. And that's part of also what you're alluding to, which is high performers. When you do your work so easily and you deliver so much and your stress management level is so much higher than the average employee, your boss doesn't know that you're nearing burnout.
(33:55):
They don't know that you're carrying a ton of workload and then honestly, they probably forgot that they asked you to do one or two of those things. And you're still doing it because that's your personality type. And this is where you have to be able to say, hey, I'd love to do that for you, but my capacity is absolutely full. I either need to deprioritize something, delegate something, hire more people, but we're hitting max capacity here. And so I love that you're bringing these up because it's definitely true where there's this trade off of information and people think, well, I have to lie, I have to be inauthentic in order to be a good employee. But the reality is you have to be honest in a constructive way.
(34:33):
You can't be honest in an abrasive way, but you can be honest in a constructive way and that will help you progress. So I love everything that we talked about today. So I always like to end episodes with one piece of advice. If someone listening to this episode is like, oh my gosh, this is me. I am the high performing people pleasing, no boundary setting, individual. What's one thing they could start to do tomorrow that would help them take back some of that power, get some of that space, start to manage their bandwidth a little bit better. What's like one piece of advice that you would give to them?
Amy Green Smith (35:03):
Well, I think one that we talked about a little bit earlier is just to take an inventory of what am I chronically complaining about and am I actually complaining about it with the appropriate party or am I bringing something productive to that person so they can do something about the grievance? And all that looks like is for, I don't know, I would say anywhere between two to five days. Just keep a little notes file of how aggro you get about people you're working with and then checking in those things and saying, do they have any idea how I feel about it A or how big of a deal it is to me? B. I'll tell you a little story. Ages ago I had a dear friend of mine who eventually ended up going through a divorce.
(35:51):
And throughout the entirety of her marriage, she spoke up, spoke up. She said what she needed, she said what she wanted. However, she didn't express the depth of the importance to her meaning if I don't see these changes within the next five years, I don't know if I can stay in this relationship. She didn't express the gravity of what she was carrying. Not just that it was something she Wanted, rectified. And I think this really applies in the corporate space as well. When you're looking at those things, have you expressed a. The problem to the appropriate party who can do something about it in a way in which you can be heard? And have you expressed the gravity of that issue to that person so they understand how. How big the stakes are for you?
(36:37):
That we haven't glossed over it, like, yeah, if you get. If you get to it, or any way we diminish ourselves and actually say, this is a really intense issue. The other thing that I would say, whenever we are flexing a new muscle, like speaking up, asking for the time to talk, let's say getting conversational consent, we will have the alarm bells go off like we are in danger. That alarm bell, followed quite quickly with inner critic chatter, is going to show up whether we are actually in danger or if something is just new. If it is the first time you've asked for a meeting with this person, if it's the first time you've led a meeting, if it is the first time you actually decided that your opinions matter, it will register as an impending threat.
(37:27):
So one of the best questions you can ask yourself when you're bumping up against fear is, am I actually in danger? Or is this just new? And a lot of times it's just new. So that gives you a little bit of a barometer of do I need to take action here or do I need to sit back a little bit because I actually might be in danger? But most of the time that fear is kicking up just because it's.
Kendall Berg (37:52):
These are such great tips and wonderful takeaways for the listeners. Amy, I so appreciate you coming on today's podcast episode. If people want to learn more about you, if they want to work with you, where should people go to find you?
Amy Green Smith (38:05):
Absolutely. So I would Cruise over to AmyGreenSmith.com and all of those names are spelled the basic bitch way. Nothing exciting. Love it. Just real basic. Exactly what you would think. That's it. And you will see an opportunity to get your hands on a free private podcast series that's not available to the public. And it is called Boundaries Over Burnout. So if you resonate with a lot of the stuff that we've talked about today, get your hands on that series. I think it'll be incredibly helpful for you. And you will see that right when you cruise over to my site, amygreensmith.com.
Kendall Berg (38:40):
Yeah, we will put that in the show notes below as well, so you can head on over there. If you guys like today's episode, go ahead, give us five stars. If you have any questions for Amy or myself, leave them in the comments below. Otherwise, Amy, thank you so much for coming on today's podcast. It was awesome.
Amy Green Smith (38:53):
I had a blast. Thanks, Kendall.
One of them is to avoid the word you if at all possible. And this is kind of antithetical to what a lot of therapists have taught in the past of like when you do this, here's how I feel. For example, if were in a meeting and like the anecdote you just shared, maybe tensions were getting heightened. Instead of saying it seems like you are really upset to say something like, it seems like tensions are a bit heightened at the moment. What do you say we take a little break and let's circle back and maybe 30 minutes or next week or whatever is applicable.
(00:32):
But I think one of the most important things what when you're dealing with difficult conversations where you may have opposing views than somebody else in the organization or you are petitioning for a raise or you even want to draw attention to what you have changed within the organization, get conversation consent at the beginning. None of us like being caught off guard.
Kendall Berg (00:59):
Welcome back to this episode of Secrets of the Career Game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know that they're playing. On this podcast we try to give you a peek behind the curtains and some tips and tricks to ultimately make you successful in your career and help you progress a little bit faster. Welcome back lovelies, to another fabulous episode. Today we have Amy Green Smith joining us. She is a certified and credentialed life coach and hypnotherapist. She's a masterful speaker and courageous communication expert. She is also founder of the Speak up for Yourself without being a Dick, which I feel like is going to resonate really well. On this podcast.
(01:47):
She has helped individuals move beyond limiting beliefs and sabotaging mindsets to a place of radical personal empowerment and self worth and ultimately really helps people find their voice. How to say no, how to set boundaries, how to step into that future self that they want to be. So welcome, Amy, we're so excited to have you.
Amy Green Smith (02:04):
Aw, thanks for having me, Kendall. It's always interesting hearing somebody read that back to you, but yeah, that's what I do.
Kendall Berg (02:10):
That's awesome. Well, why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself so they can get up to speed. So you started as more in the training space in the corporate world. You've now transition into this dynamic life coaching, standing up for yourself, anti people pleasing individual. What did that transition look like? And and how can people get excited about what we're going to talk about here?
Amy Green Smith (02:30):
Today, sure. So I kind of hit a quarter life crisis. That was sort of the impetus behind me getting involved in the personal development space. But, yeah, so in the early aughts, I was killing it as a corporate trainer for a prestige makeup brand. And I had, you know, kind of all the trappings of. Of big girl job and success, and had an assistant and a company car and was flying all over the world doing really incredible things, working backstage at fashion shows, and really kind of living into a dream that I had for a very long time. But as many of you know who are listening, a lot of times, as you begin to kind of climb that corporate ladder, the things that you once were so passionate about gets a little bit usurped by.
(03:19):
By the red tape and by the bureaucracy and about. And. And just how corporate works. And that really was this the same way for me. And I was in the company car, traveling around, commuting. It had become sort of like some golden handcuffs. This was, again, the. I feel like such a boomer. It was back in. During the time when, like, we. You could even to talk on your phone while you were driving. I know that's not, like, a thing anymore, but I would just be on my little Bluetooth, and we had a very intricate voicemail system where I would be calling all of my different managers in my store locations. So I had gotten very much into the habit of doing work on my commute, which was often quite lengthy.
(04:08):
And this one particular day, I was getting to a point where I was so burnt out, and I'd be up in the middle of the night working on lipstick spreadsheets and just really feeling like I was working my ass off for somebody else's dream, not really for my own. And I'm driving home one day, and I decide, you know what? I'm gonna listen to music. Because it had been literally years since I had even afforded myself that basic pleasure of listening to music in my car, because I had gotten so accustomed to using any available time, including my free time at home, as being available work time, right? So I'm in the car, and all of a sudden, Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway comes on. There's. I'm actually listening to the radio. I'm that old.
(04:55):
And Kelly Clarkson's Breakaway comes on, and I just start kind of like scream, Singing at the top of my lungs, like, I'll spread my wings, break, you know, and just all of a sudden, false lashes sliding down my face. I'm looking like the joker, just mess. And it dawned on me that was the first time I had done something just like the basic pleasure of enjoying music in a couple of years. So I get home and my sweet partner looks at me and he's like, oh my God, what happened to you? Because I look like, you know, total joker style. And, and I kind of held my fingers up like this, like I'm making a little for those who are listening, like I'm pinching something. And I said, I'm this close to completely losing myself.
(05:42):
And that really began the trajectory of, okay, I started taking stock of all the things that I loved about my work. Like, I love that I'm imparting wisdom, that I'm teaching and educating. So I want that to be a part of what I do in this next chapter. I need a creative element, of course, and I need to create some sort of massive impact. And it was a while till I really found what that looked like and kind of dabbled and a handful of things until I kind of landed in the lap of personal development. And that was in, I think I officially started my business in nine and then left everything, any other side job where I was sustaining myself completely on coaching in 2011. And there's been different niches in and out of that.
(06:26):
But now I, I really work with Gen X women leaders who are kind of on that precipice of burnout and how to avoid that by accessing your self worth and establishing really powerful boundaries. Love it.
Kendall Berg (06:40):
You're. You're such a fantastic storyteller because as you're saying this, I'm imagining my lashes just ripping down my face because I've been there usually at like 2am After a night out. But I'm a huge fan of this journey that you've been on because I think it is so relatable and it's so relevant because we become this cog in the machine, right? We become this high achieving version of ourselves whose identity exists in this title, right? And then we lose all sense of who we are, our boundaries, our self worth. We start to really spiral. And so knowing that you've experienced it, you've been there and now you've come out the other side and you're like, please let me help you. For the love of God, do not be that person. Like, listen to some music, it'll be fine. Your work can wait till tomorrow.
(07:30):
I love hearing that journey because I do think, you know, we talk a lot on the podcast about emotional distance to your job so that you're not too connected, you're not working too often and so this is kind of the other side of that, which I always say it's easy to create boundaries. It's really hard to maintain them.
Amy Green Smith (07:47):
Yes.
Kendall Berg (07:49):
And so it's one thing to sit in your car and be like, I'm gonna better and listen to music more. It's another thing to really redefine yourself and find a space to do that. So what did that, prior to that? What did that people pleasing look like for you? What does people pleasing look like for your clients? Because I'm sure there are people listening who are like, oh my God, I'm there. I'm like on the verge of losing it. Like, how do they identify that they're in that space and that they're doing that People pleasing over exertion that they don't need to do.
Amy Green Smith (08:21):
So this is interesting because I find that there's a very strong division between folks who identify as a people pleaser and people who do not. And I think it is sort of a disservice to how we describe that or what that really is about. And if we think about the trope of the people pleaser, we kind of think of that person as being maybe having a repressed posture, being, of course, introverted, very quiet, kind of blends in with the scenery. Certainly not an overachiever, certainly not in the C suite. And I think that's a really myopic view of what we're talking about. Because if you are someone who identifies as a perfectionist or really highly values control, it is highly likely that you have some detrimental people pleasing behaviors at play. But even my very best friend is like, you always talk about that.
(09:11):
And I, I don't think I'm a people pleaser. And I'm like, really? Are you highly invested in the opinions of other people? And she's like, oh, yeah. I'm like, welcome to people pleasing. But I think we also have to give ourselves a massive dose of compassion because it's quite literally how we're wired. So even if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for example, one of our primitive human needs is one of belonging. And that stems from our ancestors who had to belong to a group in order to survive. So if we didn't have social good, social standing or approval amongst our peers, that literally meant we would die. And so now, of course, we don't think that if Susan in accounting doesn't approve of us, we're actually going to die. But on a subconscious level, we register threat.
(09:59):
So there's a very real reason why we choose to put other people ahead of ourselves. And it's also something that keeps us safe. And we don't talk about that a lot when we discuss the people pleasing concept of how much it actually does come to our rescue. I mean, I'll just say as a blanket statement, I think most women out there know what it's like to appease or placate man so we don't get murdered. That's a perfect example of people pleasing right in order to stay safe. Many of us have those types of scenarios. If you're queer, you know, you might not want to wave your rainbow flag around a bunch of people who are ready to kill you. So there's tons of ways in which people pleasing actually is helpful for us.
(10:49):
But I would say that a large swath of us are bumping up against not clear and imminent danger, but rather a perceived fear of what might happen if somebody doesn't approve of us or doesn't like us. And that's the fear that we are responding to most frequently.
Kendall Berg (11:08):
Yeah, I love your definition here because I agree with you. I think the public opinion of a people pleaser is not somebody who's bold at executive level. But I work with so many high achieving people pleasers at the executive level. Right. And being willing to take enough space so that somebody doesn't like you is actually okay. I do think as an individual, if Susie from accounting hates me, I think I'm gonna die. I do. I feel that, like I register that deep in my bones. And I have a very good friend who she's like, well, why do you care? Like they don't have any relevance. And I'm like it because I care. Because that's a normal response to say like this person hates me and I don't understand why and I want to fix it. So I think your definition is spot on.
(11:52):
It's definitely something that I see all the time at the executive level as well, is people pleasing does help you in your career to an extent because you're solving other people's problems, you're helping make their lives easier and people appreciate that. But then there's definitely a threshold where we start to cross from, hey, people pleasing, mentai performing. And now people pleasing is holding me back from hitting that next level in my career, from maintaining work life balance, from going to my kids soccer game on Friday or whatever. The thing is, because we do get stuck and that happens. So how do people start to shift out of that? How do they start to find the right words to say to have the tough conversations to start to say no in a way that's not going to make them crash and burn.
(12:38):
Like, I love my good friend who's like why do you care? Just don't care. I'm like, that's so nice that your brain works that way of like I've just decided not to care. But for those of us whose brains don't work that way, how do we start to transition towards less of that people pleasing and really starting to set and maintain those boundaries.
Amy Green Smith (12:56):
Well, I think there's a couple of different directions we could go here. First off, I want to give you full permission to continue to care about what people think and I want you to be hyper vigilant about how that informs your behavior because those are two totally different things. I will all I want it to always sting if somebody says some rude comment about me because then I'm still feeling, I'm still able to be in touch with my emotional self. However, I don't want to be destroyed by it and I do not want that sort of commentary to make me perseverate for days upon days about what I should have done. I don't want it to be a referendum on my behavior. I want me to be the referendum on my behavior. So I the barometer is with me.
(13:44):
Am I proud of how I conducted myself? Of how I showed up? Yes or no? Not do they like me? Do they not like me if they don't like me? If they don't approve of me, I'm allowed to care. I'm allowed for that to hurt. However, that doesn't mean I go over there and force it into existence. Right? So it's about monitoring what do In the face of that. Caring what somebody thinks. Because I agree with you. I think it is. First of all, it's counterintuitive to how we are stay safe as humans. Many people listening can probably think back to possibly childhood years where making sure that you were perfect or making sure that you were the kid who took care of everybody else made it so that you didn't get physically hurt by a parent or a caregiver.
(14:33):
So we don't adopt these behaviors for the fuck of it so that we're like, oh, I'm just going to get in my own career advancement way for the rest of my no, we don't do that. We do it so that we can get ahead of our situation. But I think one piece that we need to start with is to figure out where do we need to speak up in what category or what area? I've had plenty of clients who are in high leadership positions where they have no problem speaking up at work, but in their partnership or with their mom or with their adult children, forget about it. So it can be very common that we feel like we have an acumen around communication in one category of our life.
(15:16):
So one of the easiest places to figure out where do I need to speak up, or where do I need a boundary? Or to say no is if you take a little inventory of what are the things or with whom do I constantly complain. And I'm not talking about just venting because you had a tough day. I'm talking about something that is cyclical and habitual. So let's say, Kendall, you get home every day and your partner just bitches and bitches about this one coworker that he works with, right? And you know, you support him, whatever. But he comes back every day saying, so it's not just a one off venting session. We all need that, for sure. But if you are habitually complaining about someone or something and it would be a surprise to them, then that's on you.
(16:10):
So, so often we are speaking up, but we're speaking up to the wrong parties. We're not speaking up to the person who can actually do something about the grievance. So in that scenario, your partner is speaking up, but not to the person who can do a damn thing about it. So if it would be a surprise to that other party, either A, how you feel, or B, the intensity of how you feel, then that's on you. We need to at least give people the opportunity to be what we need. Sometimes they're going to show us real quickly they don't give a shit about being what we need. And then we have a different decision to be made. But if we've never given them the opportunity, then what we're doing is relegating ourselves to victimhood.
(16:54):
We're just saying, I can never be happy unless this person magically becomes awesome, understands everything that I need. And I know you've talked about that a lot too. I call it being the assertive wheel. You don't have to be squeaky and shrill like all the ridiculous monikers we give to women. But let's be the assertive wheel. Let's, like, honk our own horn. That's not the word. That's not the saying.
Kendall Berg (17:17):
I like it, though. I'm cool with it.
Amy Green Smith (17:25):
But. But people are so absorbed with what their task list is and what their KPIs are that they're not thinking about, like, oh, let me go gas up Kendall, because she just killed it on that presentation. So part of it is learning how to take up space. But I think the first item of business is looking at, where am I the most emotionally uncomfortable? Where am I bitching and moaning? Where am I frustrated? Where am I feeling resentful? Because our emotions are powerful messengers, and that will usually give you an indication of where and with whom I need to start being vocal.
Kendall Berg (18:04):
Amy, there's so many things that you just said that I love, especially honk your own horn, probably my favorite. We'll get T shirts made after this episode. No. So I think when this is something I talk about a lot when it comes to navigating a workplace is I'm going to use the company as an example first and the individual second. But a company that's not promoting you or that's not giving you a raise or that's not taking care of you, if you have not asked that company for those things, you're not giving the company the opportunity to be what you need. And to your point, you may ask, and they laugh in your face and they're like, yeah, you're not getting promoted anytime soon. You better tuck that dream away. In which case they're never going to be what you need.
(18:44):
You need to decide whether you stay or you leave. That's in your control. But you have to give them a chance, right? Most people wait until they're at their breaking point, and then they go, give this to me or I quit. And companies are like, okay, quit, enjoy, right? You got to give them time, and you got to give them an opportunity to be what you need. So I love that example. I think doing that with the individual is really powerful as well, but also somewhere where people need to be careful. And so I'd love to get your take on this. This is like the Kendall Berg opinion of. I am all for sharing your opinion. Things you need from people that they're not giving you how to effectively work together.
(19:25):
But I feel like a lot of the time that becomes very confrontational thinking, like, toxic boyfriend breakup of, like, you never give me what I need. And we're not speaking the same language. Like, I don't feel that is super constructive in the workplace, but I do feel like there's a way of, hey, in this meeting, I had an expectation that you would do this. Do you feel that's a reasonable expectation, or is this something that we need to talk about so that we can both move forward effectively together or, hey, I've noticed following this meeting, you and I have a lot of tension. Is there some expectation you had for me that I didn't fulfill that I need to fix in order for us to work together more effectively?
(20:04):
And so I'd love to hear your take on how to approach this assertiveness and taking up space, because this is an area where I see both sides get very slippery slope, where we're either silent or we're like, crying and shouting in a conference room, and there's very little in between. And I think in between is kind of where we need to live. So once we identify where we need to establish boundaries, where we need to say no, where we need to take up more space, how do we do that in, like, an effective, constructive way?
Amy Green Smith (20:34):
Oh, my gosh. I love this so much that you asked this, because I agree. And our lady Brene of House Brown would call that being a boundary bully. And I call it where self help goes wrong. Where. And there's a handful of ways it does, but one of them is where it's like, well, that's just my boundary and that's just what I need. And I'm just taking up space. And it's like, well, no, you're actually being an asshole and you're not creating enough collaborative space. And so there's a handful of ways to go about that. But first I need to say, speaking up for yourself does not equal being a dick. It does not equal being an asshole. It does not mean hurling insults. It does not mean screaming and yelling and throwing your weight around.
(21:18):
That has been a historically patriarchal way to live in authority. But there is so much more to be said for a confident assertiveness that is grounded and unswayed. And I think there are a couple of hacks that could be helpful in doing so. One of them is to avoid the word you if at all possible. And this is kind of antithetical to what a lot of therapists have. Have taught in the past of, like, when you do this, here's how I feel. If you can remove the you. And this is not a hard and fast rule, like, you have to do it. But for example, if were in a meeting and like, the anecdote you just shared, maybe tensions were getting heightened.
(22:00):
Instead of saying, it seems like you are really upset to say something like, it seems like tensions are a bit heightened at the moment. What do you say we take a little break and let's circle back in maybe 30 minutes or next week or whatever is applicable. But I think one of the most important things when you're dealing with difficult conversations where you may have opposing views than somebody else in the organization, or you are petitioning for a raise or you even want to draw attention to what you have changed within the organization. Get conversation consent at the beginning. None of us like being caught off guard. So if we're walking through the hallway and I'm like, Kendall, oh my gosh, I need to run something by you right real quick.
(22:49):
The other day when this happened, like, you're going to be like, we're already immediately go into our fight, flight, freeze, fawn response. We go into a stress response. And so that means that we usually are evasive, we flee, we're combative, we fight or we fawn, which is placating and people pleasing, or we just freeze and don't know what to do and we're just like, okay, yeah, sure. So if we get conversation consent, it might sound something like this, hey, Kendall, I don't feel fully settled about how things went down in the meeting a little earlier. And I don't know if that's happening for you as well.
(23:25):
Would you be up for having, I don't know, maybe a 30 minute chat just to kind of clear the air and make sure we're on the same page or we're still supporting the same team, not just saying we need to talk, demanding time, but actually prefacing the conversation on respect. And if the other person asks you what it's regarding, for the love of all things holy, just fucking tell them. Because we've all been on that. On the other side, when someone's like, oh, we need to talk and we're going to do it on Tuesday. And then all leading up until Tuesday, you're like ruminating, what would I do? What did I do? Just tell them. Just say, you know, it's just regarding the conversation we had in the sales meeting the other day and I'm just not feeling fully settled.
(24:11):
And then you can always saying things like that, like fully settled or not completely at peace or still feeling a little rocky. Those types of phrases share that you there's a problem without it being a aggressive attack, you're still saying what's true for you. And there's a lot of ways to do that. So dissenting in the middle of a meeting, if you don't share someone's opinion, you can simply say, you know, I don't share that perspective, but I appreciate that's yours or I respect that. That's yours. That is still a very diplomatic, kind way to say I don' Share that. And that works really well in your non work related life as well.
(24:54):
When your in laws want to bring up shit that you don't want to talk about or that is inappropriate in your family structure to say, you know what, that's actually something that we don't engage with here in our household, but I respect that you do. My request going forward is that you don't bring that up here when we're in this space or that topic doesn't come up when you're in this space. And you can also always just say you're not willing to engage in that conversation too. If something starts going off the rails, you can very clearly say, I don't share that perspective or I don't share that. That point of view. But we certainly don't need to get into that right now.
(25:31):
So depending on if it's an appropriate time for you to air it all out between the two of you, it might not be. But to say we can certainly discuss it, but I don't think right now is the most appropriate time. So there's a handful of hacks amongst that. That conversation there.
Kendall Berg (25:49):
Yeah. And it's so great what you're touching at because you're almost hinting at, you know, being assertive does not mean being argumentative. Being assertive does not necessarily mean being aggressive. Being assertive means being willing to represent your perspective in an environment and in a way that is going to be received positively. Because if somebody came at you and was like, hey, in that meeting, you really pissed me off, you're probably going to go pretty defensive.
Amy Green Smith (26:16):
Right.
Kendall Berg (26:16):
And so if we do that to other people, we're going to get a similar response. And so coming in with this like collaborative mindset, hey, I just need to get some clarity here. I need to work with you. Can, can we set some time apart? I just, I want to deep dive that meeting a little bit more, understand exactly what's going on so that we can work together effectively. So much more constructive. And I'll share a quick anecdote. I, I work a corporate job as well. I've talked about this on the POD before. An individual work with where I crafted an email talking about a problem. It somehow gets forwarded to one person and the blame gets put on this individual. Like, hey, in this email Kendall wrote, you're the problem. And this individual and I have a really good working relationship.
(26:55):
He Comes to me, he's like, hey, can we up on a phone? I got a really weird email. I need to chat with you about it. I'm like, yes, absolutely. Gives me a heads up. I know what's coming. I know what we're going to talk about. I have advanced notice.
Amy Green Smith (27:04):
Yes.
Kendall Berg (27:04):
We get on the call and he's like, I was really surprised to see this review. And I was like, hey, so there's a reason your name is not in this email. It's not about you. I was like, so I don't know how this got through the grapevine to be a you problem, but it's definitely not a you problem. It's related to this other issue. I will send a follow up email to your boss. My boss, I want it to be really clear that this was not a me versus you issue. I think you and I can work together to fix it, prevent it from happening again. But I'm really glad you brought this to my attention because we have to be able to work together. Right. And that repaired what could have been years of really high tensions in a working relationship. Right.
(27:48):
And it was because he brought it to me, asked for buy in ahead of time, was really open. I was also willing to receive that feedback, realize where I had gone wrong, correct the situation quickly. And so I think there is a place for this and there's a way to do it in a positive, constructive way. But it doesn't happen with the wrong language. Like you come in too hot to trot, that's gonna, it's gonna spiral that person up, it's gonna spiral you up. And then we're stuck in this cycle of now we hate each other more and a relationship is becoming increasingly damaged.
Amy Green Smith (28:20):
And this is why emotional intelligence is so unbelievably important. Because what you just described is about the body language and the tone of voice. It's not about exactly what is said as much as it is your intonation and how you're holding your body. So we know that scientifically, 93% of the impact of how we communicate comes through body and tone of voice. It doesn't mean people only retain 7% of what you hear. It just means the impact is created through our delivery. So sometimes I'll talk to clients and I'll say, well, they'll say, I did speak up. And I said, okay, but how? Well, I yelled and screamed, or I was really passive aggressive and I'm like, okay, well, how would you respond to you. What would you hear on the other end of that? Especially if you're passive aggressive.
(29:15):
So I'll tell you, I had a client who really was like, many folks who are incredible high achievers, they get penalized for being excellent where it's. If you don't speak up, they think either, A, that it's stupid, super easy for you to take all the work on, or B, you like it, you want to do it, you're that controlling that you need to do it your specific way. So they go, oh, give it to Kendall. Give it to Kendall. Give it to Kendall. Give it to Amy, give it to Amy. So this client was very much this way, and she would speak up, and she's very loud and very gregarious, and she's given me the permission to share. But she would say, like, oh, sure, just give it to her. I'll take it. Just give it. Let's say her name is Sarah.
(29:54):
Just give it to Sarah. So Sarah will do it all. And so she was being vocal, but she was presenting it as a joke. So expect it to be taken as a joke. Because the natural logical perspective on the other side is I'm sure if it was that big of a deal to Sarah, she would say something that makes total logical sense. But we're over here expecting people to interpret our behavior as I'm approaching burnout, or I'm at my wit's end. They're not going to know that unless you quite literally spell that out. So we talked about it, and she had tried a different couple of different tactics. She goes in and she has a really vulnerable conversation, which is exactly what you illustrated with your coworker. And she says, hey, listen, I'd like to think that I make this look really easy.
(30:47):
The truth is that the amount of work that I'm carrying is really untenable. And I want to give you a little perspective about what it is like on my end, the implications of taking care of da, da, da. And she also came with solutions, right, which is what you need to do. But there were a couple of things here that she was really clear and she was vulnerable. A lot of times we want to come in and we want to only talk about the tactical strategy when we know that as humans, the every single decision we make is based off of how we want to feel. We would like to think that it's all logic, reason, and it's not that limbic system is going off about feelings, feelings. But we try to pretend that it's not.
(31:32):
So going in there and just soft I'm not talking about saying, oh, I stole from a convenience store when I was 4, and, you know, not that type of vulnerability. I'm talking about just stating what's real for you and using vulnerability as a tool as long as it's safe and it's not weaponized by the person that you are engaging with. But to say, hey, listen, I don't think that I've been as vocal about how difficult this has been. Truth be told, I want you to see me as somebody who's highly competent and capable, and I think I've proven that. However, I need to express that this level of workload and this amount of labor is untenable and unsustainable for me and I will eventually need to look for alternative options. However, that's not my ideal.
(32:25):
My ideal situation would be for us to partner and to figure out exactly how we can all thrive and increase. The bottom line, right? So there's tons of ways to say it, but none of that is combative. And it's also so much safer when you know you can trust what somebody is saying. When you are not just blowing smoke up someone's ass, like, no, it's great. I love it. No, I can handle all of it. When you are really a true vulnerable person, in a safe way of saying, I don't know if that's going to be possible at that deadline. I would love to think that it can be, but that's going to mean probably a few sleepless nights. And I'm not being hyperbolic, and I don't know if that's a fair request of our team. Right. Like, that's vulnerable. And it's true.
(33:15):
And it's saying, we need to find an alternative solution. So, yeah, lots to be said for vulnerability. This.
Kendall Berg (33:23):
This is so great. I feel like, Amy, you and I could talk for like three days because there's so many things that you're saying that I'm like, yes, I want to spend more time on this because it is. Is so important to be willing to share. And one of the things I talk about in my book is I have a secret in the Secrets of the Career Game that says your boss has no idea what you're working on. And that's part of also what you're alluding to, which is high performers. When you do your work so easily and you deliver so much and your stress management level is so much higher than the average employee, your boss doesn't know that you're nearing burnout.
(33:55):
They don't know that you're carrying a ton of workload and then honestly, they probably forgot that they asked you to do one or two of those things. And you're still doing it because that's your personality type. And this is where you have to be able to say, hey, I'd love to do that for you, but my capacity is absolutely full. I either need to deprioritize something, delegate something, hire more people, but we're hitting max capacity here. And so I love that you're bringing these up because it's definitely true where there's this trade off of information and people think, well, I have to lie, I have to be inauthentic in order to be a good employee. But the reality is you have to be honest in a constructive way.
(34:33):
You can't be honest in an abrasive way, but you can be honest in a constructive way and that will help you progress. So I love everything that we talked about today. So I always like to end episodes with one piece of advice. If someone listening to this episode is like, oh my gosh, this is me. I am the high performing people pleasing, no boundary setting, individual. What's one thing they could start to do tomorrow that would help them take back some of that power, get some of that space, start to manage their bandwidth a little bit better. What's like one piece of advice that you would give to them?
Amy Green Smith (35:03):
Well, I think one that we talked about a little bit earlier is just to take an inventory of what am I chronically complaining about and am I actually complaining about it with the appropriate party or am I bringing something productive to that person so they can do something about the grievance? And all that looks like is for, I don't know, I would say anywhere between two to five days. Just keep a little notes file of how aggro you get about people you're working with and then checking in those things and saying, do they have any idea how I feel about it A or how big of a deal it is to me? B. I'll tell you a little story. Ages ago I had a dear friend of mine who eventually ended up going through a divorce.
(35:51):
And throughout the entirety of her marriage, she spoke up, spoke up. She said what she needed, she said what she wanted. However, she didn't express the depth of the importance to her meaning if I don't see these changes within the next five years, I don't know if I can stay in this relationship. She didn't express the gravity of what she was carrying. Not just that it was something she Wanted, rectified. And I think this really applies in the corporate space as well. When you're looking at those things, have you expressed a. The problem to the appropriate party who can do something about it in a way in which you can be heard? And have you expressed the gravity of that issue to that person so they understand how. How big the stakes are for you?
(36:37):
That we haven't glossed over it, like, yeah, if you get. If you get to it, or any way we diminish ourselves and actually say, this is a really intense issue. The other thing that I would say, whenever we are flexing a new muscle, like speaking up, asking for the time to talk, let's say getting conversational consent, we will have the alarm bells go off like we are in danger. That alarm bell, followed quite quickly with inner critic chatter, is going to show up whether we are actually in danger or if something is just new. If it is the first time you've asked for a meeting with this person, if it's the first time you've led a meeting, if it is the first time you actually decided that your opinions matter, it will register as an impending threat.
(37:27):
So one of the best questions you can ask yourself when you're bumping up against fear is, am I actually in danger? Or is this just new? And a lot of times it's just new. So that gives you a little bit of a barometer of do I need to take action here or do I need to sit back a little bit because I actually might be in danger? But most of the time that fear is kicking up just because it's.
Kendall Berg (37:52):
These are such great tips and wonderful takeaways for the listeners. Amy, I so appreciate you coming on today's podcast episode. If people want to learn more about you, if they want to work with you, where should people go to find you?
Amy Green Smith (38:05):
Absolutely. So I would Cruise over to AmyGreenSmith.com and all of those names are spelled the basic bitch way. Nothing exciting. Love it. Just real basic. Exactly what you would think. That's it. And you will see an opportunity to get your hands on a free private podcast series that's not available to the public. And it is called Boundaries Over Burnout. So if you resonate with a lot of the stuff that we've talked about today, get your hands on that series. I think it'll be incredibly helpful for you. And you will see that right when you cruise over to my site, amygreensmith.com.
Kendall Berg (38:40):
Yeah, we will put that in the show notes below as well, so you can head on over there. If you guys like today's episode, go ahead, give us five stars. If you have any questions for Amy or myself, leave them in the comments below. Otherwise, Amy, thank you so much for coming on today's podcast. It was awesome.
Amy Green Smith (38:53):
I had a blast. Thanks, Kendall.
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