September 16, 2024 • 39 mins
Is your boss difficult, or are you dealing with something more? In this episode of Secrets of the Corporate Game, career strategist Tiffany Uman reveals how to spot the subtle yet damaging traits of toxic bosses and offers clear strategies to navigate challenging workplace dynamics. From handling narcissistic micromanagers to reclaiming credit from coworkers, this conversation digs deep into mastering the art of difficult conversations with empathy and assertiveness. Discover practical steps to protect your career, engage leadership, and build resilience in even the toughest work environments. Tune in for actionable insights that will empower you to take control and thrive.
About Tiffany Uman
Tiffany Uman is a globally recognized Career Strategy Coach, Workplace Expert and 7-figure business owner. She's also a Forbes Coaches Council member and a LinkedIn Learning Instructor with 850,000+ learners. Prior to starting her business, she grew to be a Senior Director at L'Oreal, where she achieved 7 promotions in under 10 years. She now empowers high-achievers to become the top 1% in their own careers so they fast track their dream jobs, growth and income without compromising their well-being.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When it comes to difficult communication, this does not include abrasive communication. If you have an abrasive boss who is yelling at you, who is cursing at you, who calls you names, they are toxic.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Okay, I would be really clear.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I had a few people come to me lately and be like, my boss is just really hard to work with. He's not a bad guy. And then they'll give me examples like this where I'm like, oh, no, they are a bad guy. We have, like, legitimate HR concerns here. So I think that is one distinction that I would add to that communication piece is if at any point you feel unsafe in your work, your boss is meaning toxic, whether that's the language component or that's just man. If I don't miss make this, maybe he'll threaten to fire me, or maybe he will fire me. Or if I don't do a fire drill every single Friday at 05:00 p.m. She's going to be upset.
(00:54):
This kind of goes back to that difficult boss who doesn't know how to manage time and, like, assigned work Friday at 03:00 p.m. Every week. But I definitely think that what you're honing in on, Tiffany, of this, like, difficult versus toxic, sometimes we need to have more resiliency with the difficult and learn to navigate that effectively. But with toxic, we also need to understand, like, what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, and how do we separate ourselves from it. Welcome back to secrets of a corporate game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden, and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know they're playing.
(01:32):
On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtain and unveil some of those secrets with tips and tricks that you can apply today to start taking control of your career and progress up the ladder faster. Welcome back, lovelies. Today we're going to be talking about something you guys have requested a lot, which is toxic. Bosses love them or hate them, probably hate them and navigating conflict. And we're going to do it with my good friend Tiffany Yuman. And she is amazing. She's a globally recognized career strategy coach. She's a workplace expert. She's a seven figure business owner, and she's also a Forbes coach and council member. So she's rocking and rolling. She also has LinkedIn learning courses that you can check out with over 850,000 learners. We're gonna hit a million by the end of the year. I have faith.
(02:17):
And she was one of the youngest directors at L'Oreal Fortune 500 company. She knows what she's talking about. She received seven promotions in ten years, and she helps clients achieve the top 1% in their careers. And you may also remember her as one of the very first guests I ever had on the podcast. So welcome back, Tiffany. I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, Kendall, thank you so much for having me. I know it feels like a full circle moment, but I'm excited to dive into today's topic. It's one that comes up so much on my end as well, so I think it's really needed.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to have you back because when we met a year ago, your business was really scaling. You were at that hockey stick moment of, like, crazy growth and crazy expansion, and I had just started a podcast and was pretending I knew what I was doing in true Kendall facts. And now we're here with so much more accolade on your side, but also just that opportunity to cover some of these topics that I feel like people are really honing in on.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh, yeah. And I'm so proud of you too, Kendall. I mean, we've become very good friends over the year, and I love how your podcast has grown, and the episodes are so dynamic and fun and really value packed. So I'm sure we're going to have a really good time with this one as well.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It's going to be great. I highly recommend listening to this whole thing because I know Tiffany, she's going to drop some bombs. So first off, we'll start with the top of your about toxic bosses. You talk with a lot of individuals who are struggling with this. What would you say are some of, like, the typical situations that people find themselves in where they start to identify, like, the toxic leadership aspect?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah. So there's a few things. I would say that there are certain types of bosses that will typically qualify, you know, as toxic. I think classic ones like micromanagement, narcissistic, you know, ones that will easily throw you under the bus or take credit for your work. A lot of these behaviors that are clearly, like, sabotaging your growth or getting in the way of what you're capable of achieving. That's kind of the bucket. I qualify when it comes toxic bosses that do not have your best interest in mind and also don't really want to have your best interest in mind. And so there's a real clash that's forming between the manager and employee relation. Also, a lot of the time, Kendall, like, these managers shouldn't even be managers to begin with. We'll probably talk about that. But, you know, they shouldn't even be leading people.
(04:38):
They're not equipped to lead people properly. They're not equipped to inspire and empower their people. In fact, they're doing the complete opposite. So it creates this really negative ripple effect where oftentimes amazing talent ends up leaving companies way too early because they don't really know how to navigate these kinds of bosses and think, okay, maybe just leaving is the answer, but it's so unfortunate because it creates this vicious cycle that continues to happen when leadership is also not really taking action where they should. So that's definitely one kind of big bucket that I see often. I'd say one of the other things that's kind of talked about a little bit less and actually something I'm putting together a course on because there are these really important nuances, is this distinction between toxic bosses and difficult bosses. Right.
(05:22):
The way I kind of qualify that is all toxic bosses are difficult, but not all difficult bosses are toxic. And this is really an important distinguishing factor where I've helped many of my clients navigate very difficult bosses, but not ones that were inherently toxic. A lot of the time, they don't have the proper training, they don't have the proper background, they don't have the proper skill sets in, like, time management and planning and communication. So it just spills over negatively on their team, which doesn't make it okay, but it's not coming from a place of mal intent like it often is when we're dealing with a really, like, toxic boss at their core.
(06:03):
So those are just a few of the things that I'm definitely seeing more of and why I'm really passionate about this topic, because I never want anyone standing in the way of what you're capable of achieving. And, you know, toxic bosses could definitely be that wrench in your side that try to sabotage your rope.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's so many good things that I want to spend more time on. We've got, like, a whole episode laid out in like, four minutes. I love it. But I think especially honing in on what you said about difficult bosses versus toxic bosses, you know, I always joke that I run, like, a rescue shelter team where, like, come work for me. It won't be like those other teams you worked on before. Like, it'll be safe, I promise. And Forbes published a study that said that the average manager gets training on how to manage people eleven years after they get their first team. Great. So you're talking over a decade of gap between being responsible for an individual's growth, progression, opportunity and then ultimately having the training on how to do that thing.
(06:59):
And so I think what you're drawing on with this difficult boss is like, I see a lot of micromanagers fall in this category. It's not that they're mal intent, it's that they don't know how to manage effectively and so they micromanage out of what they think is like a natural escalation. But I love to hear in the difficult bosses, how are some ways we can identify, like, this is a difficult boss versus a toxic boss for anybody who's listening, who's like, I hate my boss, I've got to get out of here. How do we distinguish between the two?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely. So obviously with the toxic boss, you can tell that there is a lot of mal intent in how they're going about it and that they really don't have your best interest in mind. Right. Like, they are often going out of their way to make things harder for you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
They are playing the politics. They are making themselves look good at your own expense. They are purposely not communicating things to you that you need to know to do your job well. Right. Like there is limiting of information, there's tampering of information, there's manipulation. And then baked into that could be a lot of just negative tendencies like gossip and favoritism and narcissism. So those are some kind of like, clear signs that it's probably skewing more towards, like, this toxic element, which absolutely is still navigatable. I want to be clear about that. But it's likely not the boss that's going to champion you in the way that you need.
(08:28):
When we compare more to, like, a difficult boss, this could be ones that are more behavioral, driven, to your point, Kendall, of like, things that they just didn't necessarily get the training on to do properly. So that's where I see a lot around, like the disorganized boss, the overwhelmed boss, right. The one who is maybe changing their mind frequently because they just don't have confidence in their own decision making. That could be super difficult to navigate as an employee where you're like, my boss just does not know what they're doing. They're constantly changing their mind. Like, change their underwear. You know, I never keep up with them. But again, it's probably because they're also kind of discovering themselves. Or maybe they've gone through negative experiences that have led them to question their own decision.
(09:13):
So I'm a big believer that when you kind of understand why they are the way they are and really try to come from a place of empathy, which I know we'll talk about a little bit today. When we talk about conflict and navigating these kinds of things, it actually can help you bridge a much stronger relationship with this boss than fuel the fire. And so these are just a few things that are coming to mind. You know, I'd say even the poor communicator, this kind of difficult boss, often not something they're trying to be bad at, but they probably just have not refined their leadership communication skills that they need. Or maybe they're not communicating frequently enough or openly enough. Now, that doesn't necessarily need to be a toxic trait.
(09:56):
It could just be that they're pretty difficult to communicate with and you can actually help them in allowing them to understand what you need to better supported under their leadership. So those are a few things, Kendall, I'd say, that are definitely coming top of mind as you ask that.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I want to also clarify. I wouldn't think that this has to be said, but I've had some interesting clientele come through lately where I'm going to add this caveat. When it comes to difficult communication, this does not include abrasive communication. If you have an abrasive boss who is yelling at you, who is cursing at you, who calls you names, they are toxic. Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Would it be really clear?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I had a few people come to me lately and be like, my boss is just really hard to work with. You know, he's not a bad guy. And then he'll get. They'll give me examples like this where I'm like, oh, no, they are a bad guy. We have, like, legitimate HR concerns here. So I think that is one distinction that I would add to that communication piece is if at any point you feel unsafe in your work, your boss is meaning toxic, whether that's the language component or that's just, man, if I don't miss make this, maybe he'll threaten to fire me or maybe he will fire me. Or if I don't do a fire drill every single Friday at 05:00 p.m. She's going to be upset.
(11:15):
This kind of goes back to that difficult boss who doesn't know how to manage time and, like, assigns work Friday at 03:00 p.m. Every week. But I definitely think that what you're honing in on Tiffany of this, like, difficult versus toxic sometimes we need to have more resiliency with the difficult and learn to navigate that effectively. But with toxic, we also need to understand, like, what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, and how do we separate ourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
From that totally and even building on what you're sharing, Hindu. Because it's such a good point. You know, obviously, the language piece, the abrasiveness is like a no go in my books, that's for sure. But I think also, even beyond that, to kind of distinguish between more of this toxic versus difficult component is what is the kind of communication that's happening? Like, is it something that's attacking your actual character as a person, or is it talking about the work? And those are two really important distinguishing factors as well. Right. If you feel like your conversation is attacking you as a person, your personality, how you look, how you come across, like, those are things that cross the line that really should have no bearing in a work setting. Whereas if it's getting really harsh feedback or criticism, but it's.
(12:25):
It's ultimately with the goal of elevating your work to help you be a better version of yourself, then finding the silver lining in that maybe they're not delivering the feedback in the best way, and that's another conversation we can have. But, you know, at least at the heart of it's coming somewhat from a good place where maybe they just don't know how to deliver it, but they want you to be able to do your job even better because they know you're capable of it. Right. So there's some tough love, but it's not about you as a person. It's not demeaning your character. It's not, like, lowering yourself or making you feel small. That is definitely falling into the bucket of, like, a toxic boss who can have just a terrible toll on your confidence as a result.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah. Tiffany and I would even say that deep, constructive conversation, well timed. That could be a very good boss.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Too often we start to get into difficult boss, and then way too often, we get into toxic. But I've had conversations with my team members where I'm like, I think you're amazing, but amazing is not coming across in your work right now. And, like, if we can't get there, it won't matter that I know how capable you are, it's going to be a problem. Right. And sometimes you have to have these direct conversations, and I think too many bosses shy away from that and do their people disservice. They don't give feedback, and then you get to your end reviews and you're not rated where you want. You're like, what happened? They're like, oh, well, here's, like, the laundry list of feedback I didn't give you during the year, and you're like, that's so great. Thanks for saving that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Don't get me started on that feedback that should have been delivered in a timely manner and was just totally forgotten about until the strategic timing of performance reviews. Exactly. That's just one sort of side note. But if you're learning feedback from your boss that's constructive for the first time in a performance review, it's way too late. You can absolutely call them out on that and ask for specificity around what they're talking about and also really demand that they share that feedback more proactively moving forward. Because otherwise, being officially documented and you never had a chance to action it properly, and that's not fair for you, right. That's going on your record and that can implicate future career growth decisions that are being made about you. So, yeah, that's it. That's a.
(14:37):
That's a hard pass on my part to, like, push back and make sure that doesn't get logged in officially into your performance review.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Absolutely. So let's talk about how we navigate some of these situations. So you gave some really great, like, what I would consider archetypes of the toxic boss at the start of the call. If you're finding yourselves in these situations, how do you respond in a way that is conflict management but is productive rather than destructive of reaction? Right. We can all get really reactionary in these times where your boss does still credit for your work, or they don't give you the context of what you deliver, ends up being wrong because you didn't know this missing piece. So how can people start to handle these things?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I know it might sound a little bit counterintuitive, but I'm a big believer of integrating empathy in these conversations, because as much as we might feel like our toxic boss is a nightmare and, like, we don't want to even think of understanding why they are the way they are, if you really do try to take some time to understand what their motivations are, what's fueling their decisions, often it's not very complicated, by the way. Like, they just want to be seen in a good light, or they want to be positioned a certain way with their leadership team, or they want to protect their ego, or, you know, they want to make sure that their reputation isn't tarnished. Like it's normally, like, a facet of a few things.
(15:56):
And so when you really try to take the time to understand, like, why they might behaving in this way, you can actually bring a more empathic lens of how you approach difficult conversations to help them understand, like, how it's also benefiting them. So I'll just give, like, a quick example. I had a pretty toxic boss along the way who gave me, you know, knots in my throat when I was going into work. And this lasted for, like. Like, I worked with her for about two years, but the second year was much better because I had these types of conversations and built up that confidence to say what needed to be said. But she was the type that was very much favoring internal politics.
(16:33):
She would throw me under the bus to protect her ego, even though it was things we actively talked about that she was completely in the know of. And then, of course, in front of our leadership team, she would act like it never even happened or that I didn't know what I was talking about. And so I knew it got to a point where I had to have this conversation. But if I would have gone in Kendall to that conversation, just kind of attacking by being like, you know, how could you do that? We talked about this. You know, I reviewed it with you yesterday. I don't understand why you completely forgot. Like, that would have just been a disaster conversation because she would have immediately gotten into defense mode with me. Instead, I chose to use empathy to connect with what's important for her.
(17:13):
And I realized through just a lot of observation and a lot of meetings with her that looking good in front of the eyes of our leadership team was most important. And so I took that lens in how I frame the conversation. So I came from a place of empathy, of acknowledging that, you know, she puts a lot of pride in her work and wants things to come off really well in front of our leadership team. And it's important reflection on her and us as her team members. So, like, that was immediately receptive on her part because she was like, yeah, that's. That's true. And then I, and I went in with what the issue was, right, and I lead it.
(17:50):
I led into more of an explanation around what happened in that meeting that could actually go against that perception or that didn't come off in the way that was likely the most appropriate. And it also made me feel a certain way. It made me feel discounted. It made me feel devalued, having already had a very in depth conversation with her about it. So because I came from a place of empathy rather than defensiveness. She was actually a lot more receptive to the challenge I was sharing as a next step. And then I ended with kind of a moving forward recommendation that we can build on together. So I said, look, you know, moving forward, I want to make sure that I'm accounting for anything that I might have missed, that you believe we should cover more in these types of conversations.
(18:35):
And I also asked that, you know, it's respectful of me as well, that we cover things in a certain way in these more leadership oriented settings. And it was a little bit more in depth than that, but it was overall, that kind of recommendation that actually got through to her. And I was shocked. Kendall, like, I didn't think this was even going to work, but that was my first use of, like, empathy in handling pretty severe conflict at work with my superior. And I was pretty junior at that time in my career, and it worked. And I've just, like, leveraged this time and time again. And it's. It's worked with very difficult personalities, very challenging personalities.
(19:13):
And I've also coached my clients on leveraging these types of techniques and their own communication to break through really toxic bosses and difficult bosses that they've had to navigate.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And, Tiffany, I would highlight something that you said that I want to just really ensure everybody listening heard was that when sharing this feedback, there was also a part of personal accountability. Here's what I will do to help this situation in the future, and I'd appreciate it if you would do this. And I think the mistake that a lot of people make is even if you go in with empathy, then they say, so, please stop doing that. And they get very defensive in that recommendation piece, is it becomes a you problem. You need to solve this. You're causing issues. And I find exactly what you're describing, which is when we can take personal accountability. Hey, here's what I can do to ensure you're as informed as possible, and I'll be open to feedback when I do miss things.
(20:13):
And I would hope that you would also represent that well in these leadership calls where we're going together to provide a united front, and that appears better to the leadership team, and we can collaborate on creating a great story to tell that I think decreases a lot of defensiveness on leaders. Right. Because as much as we all say we want constructive feedback, nobody really loves it in the moment. Nobody's like, oh, goody, my favorite. Telling me that, especially if you're type a, you're a high performer, you do a good job. We don't really want it. So even for your boss, if you put yourself in their shoes, that same logic applies. So when we approach it from a, hey, I can support you in this. If you can support me in this perspective, it becomes more of a partnership and less of that confrontation.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Exactly, exactly. I love that you shared that, Kendall, because it really is more about us versus the challenge as opposed to me versus you. If you go into these conversations as it's me versus you, it's going to be an explosion. It's never going to work out well. But when you come from this place of more of a collaborative type of approach, where the what's in it for them is still clear, like they can get it because it's fueling the things that actually motivate them, even if you don't agree with those motivations. Look, if you're going to be working with this boss for the somewhat foreseeable future, let's make sure it's a little bit more tolerable. Right. And I can tell you, when I had that conversation, it was a turning point for us. Like, it got to be a much stronger relationship.
(21:44):
She saw me more as an ally because I was really helping her in the things that motivated her. And in turn, she helped me, and it became much more positive overall. So there are ways of navigating through these situations. And the beauty of it is that it does build that grit and resilience because it's very hard to avoid these situations in a workplace. Right. I wish I could promise everyone we work with is always amazing and very supportive and collaborative, but we always control who our boss is. We can't always control when leadership changes. We can't always control when our boss, you know, shifts into a different dynamic because of something going on in their life or whatnot. And so we need to be ready.
(22:25):
And there's a lot of power and communication in how to handle these situations rather than avoiding it or hoping that things are just going to get better on their own.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes. And backing up to Tiffany, what you had said earlier about everybody just wants to quit it, there will be times where we try these things and they don't work great. I'm going to focus. Narcissistic boss, great example of it. Doesn't matter how you phrase it, odds are they're not going to be super receptive and there will be times where, strategically, for your career, it makes sense to leave. Right. Tiffany and I are not saying that at any point. Just, like, stick it out and the boomer mentality, there is an end yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
There is an expiration date in a lot of these cases.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yes, absolutely. But we can try to do these things to have these honest conversations, to push for this more collaborative work environment, and we can be open to what that looks like, because I've also seen on the flip side, we have this hard conversation, they do change, but now we're still upset because we feel retroactively wronged and we can't let it go. And then it becomes an US issue, like an individual employee issue, as opposed to leadership issues. So I think being open to these changes, trying to do the best that you can to make your work situation better, and then evaluating opportunities to leave, if that's what needs to happen, becomes really key. And I think this also applies to coworkers. Right.
(23:54):
With conflict management, I'd love to kind of shift slightly towards, we've talked about when your manager is doing these things, have those open conversations, have these dialogues. What about a co worker who's stealing credit for your work, who's gossiping, who's delegating everything they're supposed to be doing to you? Like, how do we respond to some of those situations?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I love that point. Kendall, I'm getting to it in a second. There's one thing you made me think of I wanted to add real quick, is also think about building out your support system internally, because I know it can feel really hard when you're dealing with a toxic boss or a difficult boss, and you're like, my gosh, my days just feel like such torture. And as you're navigating through that, we're giving you tools to help you with that, but also build out your support system. There's other people in the company who will vouch for you, who will know your work ethic regardless of what's happening with this boss. So try to lean into those positive relationships that can also help balance out some of the negativity.
(24:55):
Those might be relationships that open up other doors, that get you onto a different team that is much more positive than the one that you're on. So it goes kind of hand in hand with what we're talking about. But please know that is 100%, like, in your control to do. Right. If you're feeling trapped in a situation, seek out that support. Obviously, if it's something that's being very much enabled by your overall leadership team, maybe switching to another team is not going to be the right answer. But sometimes it could be, and you owe it to yourself to see that through, if that's a viable option. Coming to your point, Kendall, around, you know, coworkers that are maybe taking credit for your work, gossiping, all of that, there's.
(25:33):
There's sort of kind of three rules of thumb that I normally recommend in addressing conflict with coworkers. The first is you'll need to address it if it's someone you're working directly with in your immediate team who you cannot avoid. Like, it's not a co worker that you talk to from time to time, like they are in your space and directly affecting or impeding the work that you do that measures your success. So if that's the case, then, and I'm sorry to break it, but, like, you can't just avoid this person. We have to address it. The second thing is if this situation with this coworker runs the risk of negatively impacting the perception that others have of you in your work, because perception really matters.
(26:14):
You said it kind of earlier, Kendall, with the feedback that you gave to one of your own clients, right. That if they're doing a certain work and they're just not showing up in a certain way, like that can actually negatively affect them. So we want to make sure that we're keeping that perception factor in check even vis a vis our coworkers. So if they're doing something, if they're gossiping about you, right, if they're spreading rumors, if they're throwing you under the bus, and especially in front of key decision makers in the company, well, guess what? Like, that's definitely going to negatively impact your perception unless you stand up for yourself. So that's another thing. And then the third factor of really needing to address a conflict with a coworker is if the conflict keeps happening, right?
(26:55):
We kind of gave the example earlier around how to communicate this with a boss. Same thing goes with co workers. And when you have these conversations, they serve as accountability now. Right. You know, shame on them for doing it once, but if they do it again after having had a pretty in depth conversation about it, now you have a foundation to go off of and really further call them out on them repeating the same conflict. So these are just a few different instances of when you're going to want to address that conflict, but you could easily approach it in a similar fashion from a place of empathy. And again, I know it sounds a little counterintuitive because you just want to wring their neck and be like, I hate you right now.
(27:33):
Like, why are you know, taking my credit or, you know, making this seem like it's your project. There's sort of a time and place. I'm a big believer, Kendall, of having these conversations one one. There is going to be the moment where you build up enough confidence to actually call them out in a group setting should this happen in a group meeting. But let's walk before we run. And so probably having that one to one conversation, this coworker is going to be step one of calling them out on what's happened. Right. And let's say they are a coworker who's taken credit for your work. Right. They, you've worked so hard on this project, and here you are in a team meeting and they've just come on and, like, steamrolled you and made it seem like it was all about that. Right.
(28:15):
You know, in that meeting setting. I'll share that in a second of how you can handle that if you want to address it in the group. But at least after that meeting, you would definitely want to pull them aside and come from a place of empathy, of understanding, you know, that they want to be able to show up well in their work and have their work highlighted in front of, you know, your vp or whoever it was that you're presenting to. And you get that. Like, you really get that and then you're going to want to shift into the issue. Right. It's kind of calling them out, you know, that said, this was work that I specifically led.
(28:48):
It's a project that was my ownership, and I do not appreciate that it came through in this meeting, that it was actually you who had led it from a to z. I wasn't even given the opportunity to really jump in and clarify that. And that was something that really did not leave a good feeling, you know, in my, in our relationship, when I've always been there for you, I've always supported you or something like that. Right.
(29:12):
So you're kind of coming from somewhat caring, but also, like, matter of fact place where you're giving a specific example that they can't just ignore and you're really diving into that and then once again, you're going to share a type of solution moving forward of how to avoid being in this situation again or what you would appreciate seeing more of from them to not have that happen. And then that's what you're going to use to hold them accountable moving forward.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I love this. And so many people say, well, I don't want to. I don't want to have the one one. I don't want to have the hard conversation. And I think especially with peer to peer, it's going to have to be handled that way. Just from experience, they're not going to change. But to your point of calling them out in the meeting, I have a client going through something similar and the approach that we took, and this is not the approach for every situation, but I'm going to say it because I think it's funny. So individual keeps stealing credit in these meetings and so the way we chose to handle it, given this person's personality and a lot of background that goes into making this decision, she said, I'm so glad that you brought this up.
(30:12):
After I sent you these slides yesterday, I realized that weren't necessarily touching on this component and then finished the thought. So it was not necessarily saying, hey, you're taking credit for my work, but it was, hey, after I sent you the materials that you're presenting, my thoughts led me in this direction. I'd love to get the group's thought on that. Or hey, I realized that after I sent this to you, we could also be discussing this in tandem, something like that shows that you did contribute. It doesn't directly call them out, but odds are for that type of personality, it is going to cause a little bit of a negative pull for them and it's going to get you the credit in that meeting.
(30:52):
So then if you have that one one and you say, hey, listen, I understand you want to look really good in front of the group. I want you to have that success as someone who's trying to partner with you and wants to contribute as well. I love for us to work together so that the meetings run in a partnership and so that we both get the credit that we deserve for the hard work we're doing now. There's also that little bit of knowledge of like, oh, if I don't do this, she's not afraid to speak up in that meeting and make sure people know her contribution. And like I said, that would not be the right for every solution. But I've definitely worked with personalities where if you don't give that small push back, they'll keep running that way.
(31:35):
Think those situations are fun, especially when I have somebody bold enough to do it. I'm like, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You know, I actually recommend doing it in the group setting. I think to your point, you know, for some clients employees, it takes time to build up that confidence. But I can tell you I've done that time and time again. And yeah, I've helped my clients hold their own in these meetings when those are happening and it's been one of those repeated incidences where similar. We took a little bit of a different approach where they find their opening when someone's sharing something and they're kind of taking that crap. They'll say, you know, respectfully, I would like to jump in here because this was a part of the project that I really led with full ownership. So and so did play a key role in x, and I'd like to actually take it from here to walk through the rest of the results. Right.
(32:22):
And so they kind of just, like, take the control back, and it kind of puts the other person in their place. It still definitely warrants a one one conversation, but they're trying to sabotage you. So, you know, you could just play the same game back, but obviously do it in a way that is using proper language, that is not bashing them, but coming from a place of clarification, I like that angle of, like, you know, respectfully, to clarify, you know, so and so did play a role in this. I actually, though, took the majority of this project from this point to this point, and so I'd like to kind of walk through more of those details as a next step. Right.
(32:58):
So it's just a few different strategies that I think our listeners can use and please, you know, feel confident in doing that because this is your career, you know, this is your effort, these are your results. And probably these coworkers are coming from a place of ego protection or insecurity where they feel like they need to hog the spotlight or make you feel small or look bad so that they can look better. Obviously, those are not the best types of co workers to have, but sometimes we have them. And moving forward, I would try to minimize contact with them as much as possible. Yeah, there might be the things you have to work with them more regularly. Fine. Limit to that loop in your boss if you need.
(33:41):
If they are seeing the same things that you are and you both report into the same manager, your boss has a role to play here as well. So don't be shy to let your boss know that what you've already done to address the situation, that you're not just depending on your boss to fix your problems, but that, look, I've already done this. Things aren't really improving. What other recommendations would you have to speak to? You know, Michelle, about what's been happening? Because it really is starting to affect the way I show up in my work, and I would not want that to compromise the results that I'm getting. Right. And so it's coming from the place of, like, I'm controlling my career. I'm not going to let these coworkers try to get the best of me. I'm going to rise above that. Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And add one last thing on this. I think there's a little bit of CyA at play here, too. Right. What you were just touching on, which is informing your leadership that a difficulty exists and what you're doing to remedy the situation. So that if that individual were to go to their boss and say, well, Tiffany cut me off in this meeting and it was so rude, and I didn't like the way she handled it, and it gets to your boss. Your boss already knows what's going on. Your boss is already informed, your boss has been looped in, and so their immediate reaction is to defend you rather than them being in the dark and feeling like they have to question you.
(34:56):
So we also want to empower our leaders so that they can step up for you in the right way, especially if you have a healthy relationship with your boss. And, you know, they'll go to bat for you, giving them the information that they need to show up on your side rather than somebody goes to them, they're blindsided. They're like, oh, my gosh, I'll talk to Tiffany about it. They go to talk to you and you're like, that's not what happened at all. So we want to. We want to be proactive with that. So as we're coming to the close of the episode, I always like to ask, what is one parting piece of advice that you would give our listeners today? If there was one thing they could go do tomorrow, what is it that you'd send them out into the world with?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Well, I'll definitely keep it focused on today's theme. You know that there's more in your control than you realize. I totally get, having lived through this, having helped many clients navigate these very challenging situations, there is hope. Okay? There is hope. Even if you don't feel it in the moment, there's more that's in your control than what's out of your control. You have to be able to take that proactive stance, self assessment, audit your environment, and see really what is important for you. What do you need to thrive in your workplace and get a little bit more granular around those action steps that you can take. Communication is definitely going to be at the heart of it.
(36:12):
And to Kendall's point earlier, at least you will have known you've done what you could to make a more informed decision on how you choose to move forward it. I would much rather you take that path and have peace of mind than wondering what if? Because you didn't have that sense of control in the actions that you could have taken in those moments. So this is your career to take control of. These bosses are going to try to get in the way. Let them try. Let them try. Send them my way if they need a talking to. All jokes aside, you know, this is your career and I never want anyone to stand in the way of that. I don't want any boss sabotaging your confidence. I don't want any boss dictating your future. This is your career.
(36:53):
You are absolutely in the driver's seat. And just having that sense of empowerment, that you can make those changes, that you can take those actions, that you can be the improvement you want to see for yourself, it's going to make you stronger. I always say, you know, when it comes to resilience, which is a really important thing when navigating toxic boss, toxic co worker, toxic workplace, we grow through what we go through. And this is maybe the phase of career you're at right now, where you are in this process of growing through what you go through. But I guarantee you're going to be coming out as stronger person on the other end.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Wonderful, wonderful takeaway for everybody listening. I absolutely love that. So, Tiffany, if people listen today's episode, and of course they loved you because you're Tiffany and you're amazing, where can they go to find you if they want to learn more information?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, absolutely. You could follow me over on social media. Send me a DM. Let me know that you tuned into our episode today with Kendall. You could follow me at Instagram. Tiffany Human on LinkedIn. Tiffany Human. Whatever is easier. TikTok as well. Of course, you can always email me directly. I respond quite regularly. Tiffanyumannifanieuman.com. Or you could even go ahead over on my website. I also offer free clarity. Call if you want to chat more. It's www.tiffanyuman.com. So there's always ways to get in touch. And please do if you're going through this, because there is hope. And sometimes having that person in your corner who can really help you see through the other side can be extremely beneficial. Shall absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
So wonderful having you on the podcast today. So if you guys listened and you love today's podcast, which I know that you did, make sure you give us five stars in the reviews. Leave your comments or your questions below. Otherwise, Tiffany, as always, it's a pleasure. We'll definitely have to have you back again.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Thanks so much, Kendall. Have a great one. Bye.
When it comes to difficult communication, this does not include abrasive communication. If you have an abrasive boss who is yelling at you, who is cursing at you, who calls you names, they are toxic.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Okay, I would be really clear.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I had a few people come to me lately and be like, my boss is just really hard to work with. He's not a bad guy. And then they'll give me examples like this where I'm like, oh, no, they are a bad guy. We have, like, legitimate HR concerns here. So I think that is one distinction that I would add to that communication piece is if at any point you feel unsafe in your work, your boss is meaning toxic, whether that's the language component or that's just man. If I don't miss make this, maybe he'll threaten to fire me, or maybe he will fire me. Or if I don't do a fire drill every single Friday at 05:00 p.m. She's going to be upset.
(00:54):
This kind of goes back to that difficult boss who doesn't know how to manage time and, like, assigned work Friday at 03:00 p.m. Every week. But I definitely think that what you're honing in on, Tiffany, of this, like, difficult versus toxic, sometimes we need to have more resiliency with the difficult and learn to navigate that effectively. But with toxic, we also need to understand, like, what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, and how do we separate ourselves from it. Welcome back to secrets of a corporate game. So many people are trying to navigate a corporate world that is laden with secrets, cleverly hidden, and unspoken rules to a game that most employees don't even know they're playing.
(01:32):
On this podcast, we try to give you a peek behind the curtain and unveil some of those secrets with tips and tricks that you can apply today to start taking control of your career and progress up the ladder faster. Welcome back, lovelies. Today we're going to be talking about something you guys have requested a lot, which is toxic. Bosses love them or hate them, probably hate them and navigating conflict. And we're going to do it with my good friend Tiffany Yuman. And she is amazing. She's a globally recognized career strategy coach. She's a workplace expert. She's a seven figure business owner, and she's also a Forbes coach and council member. So she's rocking and rolling. She also has LinkedIn learning courses that you can check out with over 850,000 learners. We're gonna hit a million by the end of the year. I have faith.
(02:17):
And she was one of the youngest directors at L'Oreal Fortune 500 company. She knows what she's talking about. She received seven promotions in ten years, and she helps clients achieve the top 1% in their careers. And you may also remember her as one of the very first guests I ever had on the podcast. So welcome back, Tiffany. I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, Kendall, thank you so much for having me. I know it feels like a full circle moment, but I'm excited to dive into today's topic. It's one that comes up so much on my end as well, so I think it's really needed.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to have you back because when we met a year ago, your business was really scaling. You were at that hockey stick moment of, like, crazy growth and crazy expansion, and I had just started a podcast and was pretending I knew what I was doing in true Kendall facts. And now we're here with so much more accolade on your side, but also just that opportunity to cover some of these topics that I feel like people are really honing in on.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh, yeah. And I'm so proud of you too, Kendall. I mean, we've become very good friends over the year, and I love how your podcast has grown, and the episodes are so dynamic and fun and really value packed. So I'm sure we're going to have a really good time with this one as well.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It's going to be great. I highly recommend listening to this whole thing because I know Tiffany, she's going to drop some bombs. So first off, we'll start with the top of your about toxic bosses. You talk with a lot of individuals who are struggling with this. What would you say are some of, like, the typical situations that people find themselves in where they start to identify, like, the toxic leadership aspect?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah. So there's a few things. I would say that there are certain types of bosses that will typically qualify, you know, as toxic. I think classic ones like micromanagement, narcissistic, you know, ones that will easily throw you under the bus or take credit for your work. A lot of these behaviors that are clearly, like, sabotaging your growth or getting in the way of what you're capable of achieving. That's kind of the bucket. I qualify when it comes toxic bosses that do not have your best interest in mind and also don't really want to have your best interest in mind. And so there's a real clash that's forming between the manager and employee relation. Also, a lot of the time, Kendall, like, these managers shouldn't even be managers to begin with. We'll probably talk about that. But, you know, they shouldn't even be leading people.
(04:38):
They're not equipped to lead people properly. They're not equipped to inspire and empower their people. In fact, they're doing the complete opposite. So it creates this really negative ripple effect where oftentimes amazing talent ends up leaving companies way too early because they don't really know how to navigate these kinds of bosses and think, okay, maybe just leaving is the answer, but it's so unfortunate because it creates this vicious cycle that continues to happen when leadership is also not really taking action where they should. So that's definitely one kind of big bucket that I see often. I'd say one of the other things that's kind of talked about a little bit less and actually something I'm putting together a course on because there are these really important nuances, is this distinction between toxic bosses and difficult bosses. Right.
(05:22):
The way I kind of qualify that is all toxic bosses are difficult, but not all difficult bosses are toxic. And this is really an important distinguishing factor where I've helped many of my clients navigate very difficult bosses, but not ones that were inherently toxic. A lot of the time, they don't have the proper training, they don't have the proper background, they don't have the proper skill sets in, like, time management and planning and communication. So it just spills over negatively on their team, which doesn't make it okay, but it's not coming from a place of mal intent like it often is when we're dealing with a really, like, toxic boss at their core.
(06:03):
So those are just a few of the things that I'm definitely seeing more of and why I'm really passionate about this topic, because I never want anyone standing in the way of what you're capable of achieving. And, you know, toxic bosses could definitely be that wrench in your side that try to sabotage your rope.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's so many good things that I want to spend more time on. We've got, like, a whole episode laid out in like, four minutes. I love it. But I think especially honing in on what you said about difficult bosses versus toxic bosses, you know, I always joke that I run, like, a rescue shelter team where, like, come work for me. It won't be like those other teams you worked on before. Like, it'll be safe, I promise. And Forbes published a study that said that the average manager gets training on how to manage people eleven years after they get their first team. Great. So you're talking over a decade of gap between being responsible for an individual's growth, progression, opportunity and then ultimately having the training on how to do that thing.
(06:59):
And so I think what you're drawing on with this difficult boss is like, I see a lot of micromanagers fall in this category. It's not that they're mal intent, it's that they don't know how to manage effectively and so they micromanage out of what they think is like a natural escalation. But I love to hear in the difficult bosses, how are some ways we can identify, like, this is a difficult boss versus a toxic boss for anybody who's listening, who's like, I hate my boss, I've got to get out of here. How do we distinguish between the two?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely. So obviously with the toxic boss, you can tell that there is a lot of mal intent in how they're going about it and that they really don't have your best interest in mind. Right. Like, they are often going out of their way to make things harder for you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
They are playing the politics. They are making themselves look good at your own expense. They are purposely not communicating things to you that you need to know to do your job well. Right. Like there is limiting of information, there's tampering of information, there's manipulation. And then baked into that could be a lot of just negative tendencies like gossip and favoritism and narcissism. So those are some kind of like, clear signs that it's probably skewing more towards, like, this toxic element, which absolutely is still navigatable. I want to be clear about that. But it's likely not the boss that's going to champion you in the way that you need.
(08:28):
When we compare more to, like, a difficult boss, this could be ones that are more behavioral, driven, to your point, Kendall, of like, things that they just didn't necessarily get the training on to do properly. So that's where I see a lot around, like the disorganized boss, the overwhelmed boss, right. The one who is maybe changing their mind frequently because they just don't have confidence in their own decision making. That could be super difficult to navigate as an employee where you're like, my boss just does not know what they're doing. They're constantly changing their mind. Like, change their underwear. You know, I never keep up with them. But again, it's probably because they're also kind of discovering themselves. Or maybe they've gone through negative experiences that have led them to question their own decision.
(09:13):
So I'm a big believer that when you kind of understand why they are the way they are and really try to come from a place of empathy, which I know we'll talk about a little bit today. When we talk about conflict and navigating these kinds of things, it actually can help you bridge a much stronger relationship with this boss than fuel the fire. And so these are just a few things that are coming to mind. You know, I'd say even the poor communicator, this kind of difficult boss, often not something they're trying to be bad at, but they probably just have not refined their leadership communication skills that they need. Or maybe they're not communicating frequently enough or openly enough. Now, that doesn't necessarily need to be a toxic trait.
(09:56):
It could just be that they're pretty difficult to communicate with and you can actually help them in allowing them to understand what you need to better supported under their leadership. So those are a few things, Kendall, I'd say, that are definitely coming top of mind as you ask that.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I want to also clarify. I wouldn't think that this has to be said, but I've had some interesting clientele come through lately where I'm going to add this caveat. When it comes to difficult communication, this does not include abrasive communication. If you have an abrasive boss who is yelling at you, who is cursing at you, who calls you names, they are toxic. Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Would it be really clear?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I had a few people come to me lately and be like, my boss is just really hard to work with. You know, he's not a bad guy. And then he'll get. They'll give me examples like this where I'm like, oh, no, they are a bad guy. We have, like, legitimate HR concerns here. So I think that is one distinction that I would add to that communication piece is if at any point you feel unsafe in your work, your boss is meaning toxic, whether that's the language component or that's just, man, if I don't miss make this, maybe he'll threaten to fire me or maybe he will fire me. Or if I don't do a fire drill every single Friday at 05:00 p.m. She's going to be upset.
(11:15):
This kind of goes back to that difficult boss who doesn't know how to manage time and, like, assigns work Friday at 03:00 p.m. Every week. But I definitely think that what you're honing in on Tiffany of this, like, difficult versus toxic sometimes we need to have more resiliency with the difficult and learn to navigate that effectively. But with toxic, we also need to understand, like, what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, and how do we separate ourselves.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
From that totally and even building on what you're sharing, Hindu. Because it's such a good point. You know, obviously, the language piece, the abrasiveness is like a no go in my books, that's for sure. But I think also, even beyond that, to kind of distinguish between more of this toxic versus difficult component is what is the kind of communication that's happening? Like, is it something that's attacking your actual character as a person, or is it talking about the work? And those are two really important distinguishing factors as well. Right. If you feel like your conversation is attacking you as a person, your personality, how you look, how you come across, like, those are things that cross the line that really should have no bearing in a work setting. Whereas if it's getting really harsh feedback or criticism, but it's.
(12:25):
It's ultimately with the goal of elevating your work to help you be a better version of yourself, then finding the silver lining in that maybe they're not delivering the feedback in the best way, and that's another conversation we can have. But, you know, at least at the heart of it's coming somewhat from a good place where maybe they just don't know how to deliver it, but they want you to be able to do your job even better because they know you're capable of it. Right. So there's some tough love, but it's not about you as a person. It's not demeaning your character. It's not, like, lowering yourself or making you feel small. That is definitely falling into the bucket of, like, a toxic boss who can have just a terrible toll on your confidence as a result.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah. Tiffany and I would even say that deep, constructive conversation, well timed. That could be a very good boss.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Too often we start to get into difficult boss, and then way too often, we get into toxic. But I've had conversations with my team members where I'm like, I think you're amazing, but amazing is not coming across in your work right now. And, like, if we can't get there, it won't matter that I know how capable you are, it's going to be a problem. Right. And sometimes you have to have these direct conversations, and I think too many bosses shy away from that and do their people disservice. They don't give feedback, and then you get to your end reviews and you're not rated where you want. You're like, what happened? They're like, oh, well, here's, like, the laundry list of feedback I didn't give you during the year, and you're like, that's so great. Thanks for saving that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Don't get me started on that feedback that should have been delivered in a timely manner and was just totally forgotten about until the strategic timing of performance reviews. Exactly. That's just one sort of side note. But if you're learning feedback from your boss that's constructive for the first time in a performance review, it's way too late. You can absolutely call them out on that and ask for specificity around what they're talking about and also really demand that they share that feedback more proactively moving forward. Because otherwise, being officially documented and you never had a chance to action it properly, and that's not fair for you, right. That's going on your record and that can implicate future career growth decisions that are being made about you. So, yeah, that's it. That's a.
(14:37):
That's a hard pass on my part to, like, push back and make sure that doesn't get logged in officially into your performance review.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Absolutely. So let's talk about how we navigate some of these situations. So you gave some really great, like, what I would consider archetypes of the toxic boss at the start of the call. If you're finding yourselves in these situations, how do you respond in a way that is conflict management but is productive rather than destructive of reaction? Right. We can all get really reactionary in these times where your boss does still credit for your work, or they don't give you the context of what you deliver, ends up being wrong because you didn't know this missing piece. So how can people start to handle these things?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, I know it might sound a little bit counterintuitive, but I'm a big believer of integrating empathy in these conversations, because as much as we might feel like our toxic boss is a nightmare and, like, we don't want to even think of understanding why they are the way they are, if you really do try to take some time to understand what their motivations are, what's fueling their decisions, often it's not very complicated, by the way. Like, they just want to be seen in a good light, or they want to be positioned a certain way with their leadership team, or they want to protect their ego, or, you know, they want to make sure that their reputation isn't tarnished. Like it's normally, like, a facet of a few things.
(15:56):
And so when you really try to take the time to understand, like, why they might behaving in this way, you can actually bring a more empathic lens of how you approach difficult conversations to help them understand, like, how it's also benefiting them. So I'll just give, like, a quick example. I had a pretty toxic boss along the way who gave me, you know, knots in my throat when I was going into work. And this lasted for, like. Like, I worked with her for about two years, but the second year was much better because I had these types of conversations and built up that confidence to say what needed to be said. But she was the type that was very much favoring internal politics.
(16:33):
She would throw me under the bus to protect her ego, even though it was things we actively talked about that she was completely in the know of. And then, of course, in front of our leadership team, she would act like it never even happened or that I didn't know what I was talking about. And so I knew it got to a point where I had to have this conversation. But if I would have gone in Kendall to that conversation, just kind of attacking by being like, you know, how could you do that? We talked about this. You know, I reviewed it with you yesterday. I don't understand why you completely forgot. Like, that would have just been a disaster conversation because she would have immediately gotten into defense mode with me. Instead, I chose to use empathy to connect with what's important for her.
(17:13):
And I realized through just a lot of observation and a lot of meetings with her that looking good in front of the eyes of our leadership team was most important. And so I took that lens in how I frame the conversation. So I came from a place of empathy, of acknowledging that, you know, she puts a lot of pride in her work and wants things to come off really well in front of our leadership team. And it's important reflection on her and us as her team members. So, like, that was immediately receptive on her part because she was like, yeah, that's. That's true. And then I, and I went in with what the issue was, right, and I lead it.
(17:50):
I led into more of an explanation around what happened in that meeting that could actually go against that perception or that didn't come off in the way that was likely the most appropriate. And it also made me feel a certain way. It made me feel discounted. It made me feel devalued, having already had a very in depth conversation with her about it. So because I came from a place of empathy rather than defensiveness. She was actually a lot more receptive to the challenge I was sharing as a next step. And then I ended with kind of a moving forward recommendation that we can build on together. So I said, look, you know, moving forward, I want to make sure that I'm accounting for anything that I might have missed, that you believe we should cover more in these types of conversations.
(18:35):
And I also asked that, you know, it's respectful of me as well, that we cover things in a certain way in these more leadership oriented settings. And it was a little bit more in depth than that, but it was overall, that kind of recommendation that actually got through to her. And I was shocked. Kendall, like, I didn't think this was even going to work, but that was my first use of, like, empathy in handling pretty severe conflict at work with my superior. And I was pretty junior at that time in my career, and it worked. And I've just, like, leveraged this time and time again. And it's. It's worked with very difficult personalities, very challenging personalities.
(19:13):
And I've also coached my clients on leveraging these types of techniques and their own communication to break through really toxic bosses and difficult bosses that they've had to navigate.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And, Tiffany, I would highlight something that you said that I want to just really ensure everybody listening heard was that when sharing this feedback, there was also a part of personal accountability. Here's what I will do to help this situation in the future, and I'd appreciate it if you would do this. And I think the mistake that a lot of people make is even if you go in with empathy, then they say, so, please stop doing that. And they get very defensive in that recommendation piece, is it becomes a you problem. You need to solve this. You're causing issues. And I find exactly what you're describing, which is when we can take personal accountability. Hey, here's what I can do to ensure you're as informed as possible, and I'll be open to feedback when I do miss things.
(20:13):
And I would hope that you would also represent that well in these leadership calls where we're going together to provide a united front, and that appears better to the leadership team, and we can collaborate on creating a great story to tell that I think decreases a lot of defensiveness on leaders. Right. Because as much as we all say we want constructive feedback, nobody really loves it in the moment. Nobody's like, oh, goody, my favorite. Telling me that, especially if you're type a, you're a high performer, you do a good job. We don't really want it. So even for your boss, if you put yourself in their shoes, that same logic applies. So when we approach it from a, hey, I can support you in this. If you can support me in this perspective, it becomes more of a partnership and less of that confrontation.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Exactly, exactly. I love that you shared that, Kendall, because it really is more about us versus the challenge as opposed to me versus you. If you go into these conversations as it's me versus you, it's going to be an explosion. It's never going to work out well. But when you come from this place of more of a collaborative type of approach, where the what's in it for them is still clear, like they can get it because it's fueling the things that actually motivate them, even if you don't agree with those motivations. Look, if you're going to be working with this boss for the somewhat foreseeable future, let's make sure it's a little bit more tolerable. Right. And I can tell you, when I had that conversation, it was a turning point for us. Like, it got to be a much stronger relationship.
(21:44):
She saw me more as an ally because I was really helping her in the things that motivated her. And in turn, she helped me, and it became much more positive overall. So there are ways of navigating through these situations. And the beauty of it is that it does build that grit and resilience because it's very hard to avoid these situations in a workplace. Right. I wish I could promise everyone we work with is always amazing and very supportive and collaborative, but we always control who our boss is. We can't always control when leadership changes. We can't always control when our boss, you know, shifts into a different dynamic because of something going on in their life or whatnot. And so we need to be ready.
(22:25):
And there's a lot of power and communication in how to handle these situations rather than avoiding it or hoping that things are just going to get better on their own.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes. And backing up to Tiffany, what you had said earlier about everybody just wants to quit it, there will be times where we try these things and they don't work great. I'm going to focus. Narcissistic boss, great example of it. Doesn't matter how you phrase it, odds are they're not going to be super receptive and there will be times where, strategically, for your career, it makes sense to leave. Right. Tiffany and I are not saying that at any point. Just, like, stick it out and the boomer mentality, there is an end yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
There is an expiration date in a lot of these cases.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yes, absolutely. But we can try to do these things to have these honest conversations, to push for this more collaborative work environment, and we can be open to what that looks like, because I've also seen on the flip side, we have this hard conversation, they do change, but now we're still upset because we feel retroactively wronged and we can't let it go. And then it becomes an US issue, like an individual employee issue, as opposed to leadership issues. So I think being open to these changes, trying to do the best that you can to make your work situation better, and then evaluating opportunities to leave, if that's what needs to happen, becomes really key. And I think this also applies to coworkers. Right.
(23:54):
With conflict management, I'd love to kind of shift slightly towards, we've talked about when your manager is doing these things, have those open conversations, have these dialogues. What about a co worker who's stealing credit for your work, who's gossiping, who's delegating everything they're supposed to be doing to you? Like, how do we respond to some of those situations?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I love that point. Kendall, I'm getting to it in a second. There's one thing you made me think of I wanted to add real quick, is also think about building out your support system internally, because I know it can feel really hard when you're dealing with a toxic boss or a difficult boss, and you're like, my gosh, my days just feel like such torture. And as you're navigating through that, we're giving you tools to help you with that, but also build out your support system. There's other people in the company who will vouch for you, who will know your work ethic regardless of what's happening with this boss. So try to lean into those positive relationships that can also help balance out some of the negativity.
(24:55):
Those might be relationships that open up other doors, that get you onto a different team that is much more positive than the one that you're on. So it goes kind of hand in hand with what we're talking about. But please know that is 100%, like, in your control to do. Right. If you're feeling trapped in a situation, seek out that support. Obviously, if it's something that's being very much enabled by your overall leadership team, maybe switching to another team is not going to be the right answer. But sometimes it could be, and you owe it to yourself to see that through, if that's a viable option. Coming to your point, Kendall, around, you know, coworkers that are maybe taking credit for your work, gossiping, all of that, there's.
(25:33):
There's sort of kind of three rules of thumb that I normally recommend in addressing conflict with coworkers. The first is you'll need to address it if it's someone you're working directly with in your immediate team who you cannot avoid. Like, it's not a co worker that you talk to from time to time, like they are in your space and directly affecting or impeding the work that you do that measures your success. So if that's the case, then, and I'm sorry to break it, but, like, you can't just avoid this person. We have to address it. The second thing is if this situation with this coworker runs the risk of negatively impacting the perception that others have of you in your work, because perception really matters.
(26:14):
You said it kind of earlier, Kendall, with the feedback that you gave to one of your own clients, right. That if they're doing a certain work and they're just not showing up in a certain way, like that can actually negatively affect them. So we want to make sure that we're keeping that perception factor in check even vis a vis our coworkers. So if they're doing something, if they're gossiping about you, right, if they're spreading rumors, if they're throwing you under the bus, and especially in front of key decision makers in the company, well, guess what? Like, that's definitely going to negatively impact your perception unless you stand up for yourself. So that's another thing. And then the third factor of really needing to address a conflict with a coworker is if the conflict keeps happening, right?
(26:55):
We kind of gave the example earlier around how to communicate this with a boss. Same thing goes with co workers. And when you have these conversations, they serve as accountability now. Right. You know, shame on them for doing it once, but if they do it again after having had a pretty in depth conversation about it, now you have a foundation to go off of and really further call them out on them repeating the same conflict. So these are just a few different instances of when you're going to want to address that conflict, but you could easily approach it in a similar fashion from a place of empathy. And again, I know it sounds a little counterintuitive because you just want to wring their neck and be like, I hate you right now.
(27:33):
Like, why are you know, taking my credit or, you know, making this seem like it's your project. There's sort of a time and place. I'm a big believer, Kendall, of having these conversations one one. There is going to be the moment where you build up enough confidence to actually call them out in a group setting should this happen in a group meeting. But let's walk before we run. And so probably having that one to one conversation, this coworker is going to be step one of calling them out on what's happened. Right. And let's say they are a coworker who's taken credit for your work. Right. They, you've worked so hard on this project, and here you are in a team meeting and they've just come on and, like, steamrolled you and made it seem like it was all about that. Right.
(28:15):
You know, in that meeting setting. I'll share that in a second of how you can handle that if you want to address it in the group. But at least after that meeting, you would definitely want to pull them aside and come from a place of empathy, of understanding, you know, that they want to be able to show up well in their work and have their work highlighted in front of, you know, your vp or whoever it was that you're presenting to. And you get that. Like, you really get that and then you're going to want to shift into the issue. Right. It's kind of calling them out, you know, that said, this was work that I specifically led.
(28:48):
It's a project that was my ownership, and I do not appreciate that it came through in this meeting, that it was actually you who had led it from a to z. I wasn't even given the opportunity to really jump in and clarify that. And that was something that really did not leave a good feeling, you know, in my, in our relationship, when I've always been there for you, I've always supported you or something like that. Right.
(29:12):
So you're kind of coming from somewhat caring, but also, like, matter of fact place where you're giving a specific example that they can't just ignore and you're really diving into that and then once again, you're going to share a type of solution moving forward of how to avoid being in this situation again or what you would appreciate seeing more of from them to not have that happen. And then that's what you're going to use to hold them accountable moving forward.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I love this. And so many people say, well, I don't want to. I don't want to have the one one. I don't want to have the hard conversation. And I think especially with peer to peer, it's going to have to be handled that way. Just from experience, they're not going to change. But to your point of calling them out in the meeting, I have a client going through something similar and the approach that we took, and this is not the approach for every situation, but I'm going to say it because I think it's funny. So individual keeps stealing credit in these meetings and so the way we chose to handle it, given this person's personality and a lot of background that goes into making this decision, she said, I'm so glad that you brought this up.
(30:12):
After I sent you these slides yesterday, I realized that weren't necessarily touching on this component and then finished the thought. So it was not necessarily saying, hey, you're taking credit for my work, but it was, hey, after I sent you the materials that you're presenting, my thoughts led me in this direction. I'd love to get the group's thought on that. Or hey, I realized that after I sent this to you, we could also be discussing this in tandem, something like that shows that you did contribute. It doesn't directly call them out, but odds are for that type of personality, it is going to cause a little bit of a negative pull for them and it's going to get you the credit in that meeting.
(30:52):
So then if you have that one one and you say, hey, listen, I understand you want to look really good in front of the group. I want you to have that success as someone who's trying to partner with you and wants to contribute as well. I love for us to work together so that the meetings run in a partnership and so that we both get the credit that we deserve for the hard work we're doing now. There's also that little bit of knowledge of like, oh, if I don't do this, she's not afraid to speak up in that meeting and make sure people know her contribution. And like I said, that would not be the right for every solution. But I've definitely worked with personalities where if you don't give that small push back, they'll keep running that way.
(31:35):
Think those situations are fun, especially when I have somebody bold enough to do it. I'm like, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You know, I actually recommend doing it in the group setting. I think to your point, you know, for some clients employees, it takes time to build up that confidence. But I can tell you I've done that time and time again. And yeah, I've helped my clients hold their own in these meetings when those are happening and it's been one of those repeated incidences where similar. We took a little bit of a different approach where they find their opening when someone's sharing something and they're kind of taking that crap. They'll say, you know, respectfully, I would like to jump in here because this was a part of the project that I really led with full ownership. So and so did play a key role in x, and I'd like to actually take it from here to walk through the rest of the results. Right.
(32:22):
And so they kind of just, like, take the control back, and it kind of puts the other person in their place. It still definitely warrants a one one conversation, but they're trying to sabotage you. So, you know, you could just play the same game back, but obviously do it in a way that is using proper language, that is not bashing them, but coming from a place of clarification, I like that angle of, like, you know, respectfully, to clarify, you know, so and so did play a role in this. I actually, though, took the majority of this project from this point to this point, and so I'd like to kind of walk through more of those details as a next step. Right.
(32:58):
So it's just a few different strategies that I think our listeners can use and please, you know, feel confident in doing that because this is your career, you know, this is your effort, these are your results. And probably these coworkers are coming from a place of ego protection or insecurity where they feel like they need to hog the spotlight or make you feel small or look bad so that they can look better. Obviously, those are not the best types of co workers to have, but sometimes we have them. And moving forward, I would try to minimize contact with them as much as possible. Yeah, there might be the things you have to work with them more regularly. Fine. Limit to that loop in your boss if you need.
(33:41):
If they are seeing the same things that you are and you both report into the same manager, your boss has a role to play here as well. So don't be shy to let your boss know that what you've already done to address the situation, that you're not just depending on your boss to fix your problems, but that, look, I've already done this. Things aren't really improving. What other recommendations would you have to speak to? You know, Michelle, about what's been happening? Because it really is starting to affect the way I show up in my work, and I would not want that to compromise the results that I'm getting. Right. And so it's coming from the place of, like, I'm controlling my career. I'm not going to let these coworkers try to get the best of me. I'm going to rise above that. Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And add one last thing on this. I think there's a little bit of CyA at play here, too. Right. What you were just touching on, which is informing your leadership that a difficulty exists and what you're doing to remedy the situation. So that if that individual were to go to their boss and say, well, Tiffany cut me off in this meeting and it was so rude, and I didn't like the way she handled it, and it gets to your boss. Your boss already knows what's going on. Your boss is already informed, your boss has been looped in, and so their immediate reaction is to defend you rather than them being in the dark and feeling like they have to question you.
(34:56):
So we also want to empower our leaders so that they can step up for you in the right way, especially if you have a healthy relationship with your boss. And, you know, they'll go to bat for you, giving them the information that they need to show up on your side rather than somebody goes to them, they're blindsided. They're like, oh, my gosh, I'll talk to Tiffany about it. They go to talk to you and you're like, that's not what happened at all. So we want to. We want to be proactive with that. So as we're coming to the close of the episode, I always like to ask, what is one parting piece of advice that you would give our listeners today? If there was one thing they could go do tomorrow, what is it that you'd send them out into the world with?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Well, I'll definitely keep it focused on today's theme. You know that there's more in your control than you realize. I totally get, having lived through this, having helped many clients navigate these very challenging situations, there is hope. Okay? There is hope. Even if you don't feel it in the moment, there's more that's in your control than what's out of your control. You have to be able to take that proactive stance, self assessment, audit your environment, and see really what is important for you. What do you need to thrive in your workplace and get a little bit more granular around those action steps that you can take. Communication is definitely going to be at the heart of it.
(36:12):
And to Kendall's point earlier, at least you will have known you've done what you could to make a more informed decision on how you choose to move forward it. I would much rather you take that path and have peace of mind than wondering what if? Because you didn't have that sense of control in the actions that you could have taken in those moments. So this is your career to take control of. These bosses are going to try to get in the way. Let them try. Let them try. Send them my way if they need a talking to. All jokes aside, you know, this is your career and I never want anyone to stand in the way of that. I don't want any boss sabotaging your confidence. I don't want any boss dictating your future. This is your career.
(36:53):
You are absolutely in the driver's seat. And just having that sense of empowerment, that you can make those changes, that you can take those actions, that you can be the improvement you want to see for yourself, it's going to make you stronger. I always say, you know, when it comes to resilience, which is a really important thing when navigating toxic boss, toxic co worker, toxic workplace, we grow through what we go through. And this is maybe the phase of career you're at right now, where you are in this process of growing through what you go through. But I guarantee you're going to be coming out as stronger person on the other end.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Wonderful, wonderful takeaway for everybody listening. I absolutely love that. So, Tiffany, if people listen today's episode, and of course they loved you because you're Tiffany and you're amazing, where can they go to find you if they want to learn more information?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, absolutely. You could follow me over on social media. Send me a DM. Let me know that you tuned into our episode today with Kendall. You could follow me at Instagram. Tiffany Human on LinkedIn. Tiffany Human. Whatever is easier. TikTok as well. Of course, you can always email me directly. I respond quite regularly. Tiffanyumannifanieuman.com. Or you could even go ahead over on my website. I also offer free clarity. Call if you want to chat more. It's www.tiffanyuman.com. So there's always ways to get in touch. And please do if you're going through this, because there is hope. And sometimes having that person in your corner who can really help you see through the other side can be extremely beneficial. Shall absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
So wonderful having you on the podcast today. So if you guys listened and you love today's podcast, which I know that you did, make sure you give us five stars in the reviews. Leave your comments or your questions below. Otherwise, Tiffany, as always, it's a pleasure. We'll definitely have to have you back again.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Thanks so much, Kendall. Have a great one. Bye.
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