July 24, 2025 • 30 mins
K to R Essentials graduate Caitlin Rancher, PhD shares her journey navigating the K99-R00 transition while developing essential skills for independent faculty success. She discusses how applying a scientific mindset to career challenges transformed uncertainty into opportunity.
In this conversation we discuss:
• The challenge of "going off the written map" when transitioning from structured training to independent faculty
• Creating and protecting boundaries around time commitments, especially for deep work
• Establishing routines that balance productivity with necessary rest
• Recognizing that you already possess core capabilities for success—the "ruby slippers" realization
• Applying scientific thinking to career development to reduce the fear of failure
• Maintaining focus during times of uncertainty by concentrating on what you can control
• The importance of celebrating wins, both large and small, to sustain motivation
If you aren't already on the wait list for the next cohort of K-R Essentials, head to our website to sign up at https://sarahdobson.co/k2r so that you can be the first to hear all the details about the program.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
If you aren't already on the wait list for the next
cohort of K-R Essentials, headto our website to sign up so
that you can be the first tohear all the details about the
program and to get yourquestions answered.
You can do that atsarahdobsonco slash k2r that's
S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O.
Slash K, number 2 R.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
(00:22):
Essentials graduate.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
Essentials graduate.
These episodes are reallyspecial.
They're a little longer than atypical episode.
You'll hear from me and, ofcourse, you get to hear directly
from a former student abouttheir experience in the program.
The reason I love theseconversations so much, aside
from getting to chat with agraduate, is because it's one
(00:51):
thing to hear me talk about theperspectives and tools that I
teach inside K-R Essentials, butit's another thing entirely to
hear someone who's applied thosetools and perspectives in their
own career and to hear whathappened when they did.
Here's our conversation.
Welcome, welcome.
The first thing, of course, isto introduce yourself and share
your pronouns.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Sure, my name is Caitlin Rancher and my pronouns
are she, her.
So I'm a clinical psychologistby training and my work is
really focused on studying theconsequences of children's
exposure to violence and traumaand testing parenting-based
interventions to help familiesand victims exposed to trauma.
And I was really drawn to thiswork early on with a clinical
(01:30):
experience where I was workingwith children in this
after-school program who wereexperiencing really significant
levels of behavior problems anddistress and trauma is super
ubiquitous across thispopulation, really common.
But what we found was there'sreally big differences in child
adjustment.
Some kids were doing reallywell and some were really
struggling.
So I was drawn to this questionof risk and resiliency and who
(01:53):
does well and how can we buildthat resilience in kids who
aren't doing so well.
And caregivers support.
This importance of havingsomeone in your corner, someone
who's going to show up for you,help protect you, listen to you,
help you access all thesereally helpful resources emerge
as a really important factor.
So large focus my current workis trying to continue to
(02:13):
understand those risk resiliencefactors who does well after
child trauma and how can wesupport those helpers who are
getting them in the door?
How can we build up caregivers.
How can we increase theirabilities, their self-efficacy
to provide that really pivotalprotection and care for these
kids who've experienced trauma?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And that's the work that you're currently doing in
your K.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It is.
So the K99-ROO that I have wasspecifically designed to
recognize not only arecaregivers important and really
in need of our help and servicesand how to improve their
abilities to provide thatemotional support and showing up
for their children, but we havereally good programs that do
that already.
We have like trauma-focused CBT, parent-child interaction
(02:56):
therapy, pcit.
We have all these really goodprograms, but they're lengthy
they take eight to 20 sessionslong to deliver.
They take extensive resourcesin terms of training time,
personnel power to learn how todo them with fidelity and then
to actually deliver them.
And so families on our traumatreatment waitlist spend months
(03:17):
waiting to get those reallyeffective, helpful treatments.
And so what we're doing withthis K99 and onto this next
phase of the research is whatcan we do while they're waiting?
Can we offer something like abrief parenting program to
caregivers and their families onthe waitlist for trauma-focused
treatment to give themsomething to help teach some of
these foundational skills tobetter prepare them for later
(03:39):
trauma-focused treatment, forlater trauma-focused treatment?
But there's a couple nuances andchallenges, of course,
recognizing that they're on thewait list for a reason, because
the provider is not available.
So how do we leverage ourparaprofessional workforce.
How do we get folks in the doorwho might be able to do this
even if they're not licensed?
What can we teach them todeliver these services and how
do we pay for this?
(03:59):
How do we implement it inexisting systems of care?
So that's the broad scope ofwhat we're trying to do and
seeing some really positivethings.
So now we're on to the pilottest of let's do it, let's try
it on, let's see if we canactually deliver this with
paraprofessionals, two familieson the wait list and early
signals.
Look like it's going to work.
It's going to be helpful.
We don't anticipate this willreplace treatment, but more of a
(04:20):
stepped care model.
Can this will replace treatment, but more of a stepped care
model?
Can we get folks engaged sothey can get to the good stuff?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, that sounds like really meaningful,
rewarding work to be doing, yeah, good.
So, caitlin, when you cast yourmind back to the fall of 2024
and what was going on in yourK99-R00 way back then, what is
it that you were challenged by,struggling with, and what was it
(04:52):
that led you to seek out thesupport of K to R Essentials?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, that was this really critical time where I was
trying to figure out how do Itransition my K99 to the ROO and
this really neat kangaroomechanism but brings with it a
lot of challenges.
There's a big career transitionpoint from your early career,
your advanced postdoc, butgetting into faculty and needing
to find and secure a facultyposition and wanting to seek
(05:22):
some external mentorship on whatwas the best way to do that, to
navigate that transition.
Probably some internet searcheson legitimate what does K to R
look like and a different kindof K to R was what I was
thinking.
But that's how I stumbledacross this Essentials course
and I think for me too there's alot of mentorship.
I was getting on my K, but in avery specific focus on the
(05:43):
project or on my professionaldevelopment in that space, and
so I wanted to think about morebroadly how do I transition from
trainee to independent facultyand to be really thoughtful
about what do I want to set upup front, what guardrails do I
want in place?
What do I want to be lookingfor as I pursue a new position
and think about this R phase andthe next R phase beyond this
(06:06):
R00.
Yeah, so those are like justlooking for that outside
guidance really.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, can you remember anything specific about
that transition that you wereespecially uncertain about?
Or like, what was itspecifically about the
transition from mentee to PIthat you were like how do I do
this?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think there's something about going off the
written map.
The rules of engagement are veryclear and I think we talked
about this in your course andthat spoke to me too.
But I think in my experiencethere is a going through
graduate school, there'scriteria on how to succeed and
what that looks like, benchmarks, and same for even the K99
postdoctoral training, thatthere are explicit external
(06:52):
guidance on how to do that, andsuddenly that kind of falls away
and there, of course, there'sstill some rules that you have
to follow to do the bare corecomponents of your faculty
position and job.
But what that looks like, whatkind of faculty position that
looks like?
Suddenly there wasn't a rulebook, and I think that's good,
that's exciting, but that was achallenge and I think that was
(07:13):
part of the maybe looking foranother rule book, like, well,
what is that transition Like?
How do one succeed at that?
But I think, trying to get somemore understanding of if there
isn't a specific list ofcriteria on faculty success,
then what is going to be guidingmy actions, my decisions, how I
engage in the workplace andwhere I'm spending my energy and
(07:35):
time.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, I think that's such a really well.
It's such a good point that youbring up we do talk a lot about
that in the course right such agood point that you bring up we
do talk a lot about that in thecourse right About not having a
roadmap anymore and that you'vegotten this far in your career
by checking off all those boxesand exceeding a lot of those
expectations that are laid outfor you.
But as soon as you get to theedge of that cliff and there are
(07:59):
no more expectations, what doyou do and how do you set that
up for yourself?
And so that's really the workof the program and a lot of the
work that you engaged in duringyour time in the program
different ways, but, as I'm sureyou recognized in the course,
(08:28):
in my view, a lot of theseskills and habits that we're
building up are relevant nomatter where you are in your
career.
They are useful to either learnfor the first time or revisit
and refine just to make surethat you're creating your own
map and that you are figuringthings out for yourself.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Definitely, and I think there's some points even
from this course that aredesigned for the specific career
stage and for this particulargroup of learners that I have
pulled out and talked about.
In some of a really nicely time.
We're doing some facultystrategic planning and able to
say, hey, have we thought aboutdoing something like there's
this idea of a skills matrix andkind of adapting the?
Have we thought about toimprove, like, enhance
(09:13):
collaboration across faculty?
What would this look like if weknew what each other's
strengths are, where we neededto shore up or who we needed to
consult with?
And it's been really interestingto see how these skills and
some of the thinking that wework on this course does
translate across the facultyspectrum and probably other
areas too.
It just has been this immediateapplication for even senior
(09:34):
faculty thinking.
Oh yeah, I don't even know if Iknow myself Like I am an expert
in all these things and I'm notbeing asked to collaborate on
grants or opportunities thatcould be research projects,
because people don't know thatabout me.
So just really interesting,that level of introspection and
insight and sharing how tocommunicate that effectively is
kind of universally helpful, notjust for Earth.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So do you.
We talked a little bit aboutwhat you were seeking out, what
you found challenging, kind of.
At that particular career point, do you remember what it is
that you hoped that you wouldaccomplish in the program?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And I think I wonder if there was explicit learning
objectives.
I came in with Probably nothingso formal, I do think, trying
to engage.
What would it look like to takeon the mindset of I am ready to
write the R01, that I am asuccessful, whatever that might
mean, that definition, thatembodiment of I have the mindset
(10:34):
to be prepared to take on thisnext career stage with
confidence and as well as Ithink even that I was really
hoping to, I think, learn someof the day-to-day like how do I
want to be spending my time?
What does this look like?
Transitioning from postdoc wherethere's a lot of flexibility, a
(10:54):
lot fewer responsibilities, alot of freedom to set final
meetings, pursue different typesof research agendas and write
manuscripts and grants and lotsof protected time that goes away
when you become faculty.
Suddenly there's a lot ofexciting opportunities to
participate in a lot of meetings, a lot of new committees and
(11:16):
things that I could be doing andI know in myself that that's
exciting and I want to say yesto things.
And so, trying to figure out,come in with a strategic plan
for myself of what is going tobe most serving, what do I want
to be spending my time on so Ican approach that thoughtfully
Again.
So I think, just morethoughtfulness if that's the big
takeaway I was hoping to getwas the have the mindset to take
(11:38):
on this new challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, I think that's, you know, being thoughtful and
being intentional about how youspend your time is something
that we really focus on insidethe program, and so where did
you end up with that?
How did that go?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It's ironic and, of course, the things that we know
are helpful, like when you planyour time, like when you
actually block your calendar,when you actually think about
what am I doing that thatactually is super helpful.
And it's the same kind offrustration, the irony of like,
well, yeah, if I actually sleepand I exercise and I eat, right,
I feel better.
It's the same kind of thinglike that.
What we know works works.
(12:15):
It is the oh right, we have toactually do it and engage.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, isn't that so annoying.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
The worst, but it's true and super helpful.
And I think what I foundparticularly compelling from
some of that because I knew someof that like yeah, if I
scheduled writing time and if Icommit to things, I knew that.
But some of I think the nuancethat I got from the course, in
particular with that, wasprotecting the no and setting
boundaries with myself, thingsthat, oh gosh, this person
(12:43):
really is asking can I respondto this email right away?
Or they're asking for help, orthis is these crises that come
up that don't need to beaddressed during the writing
time.
But I was eager to be helpfulor to respond to those
immediately.
So the really recognizing that,holding that as space, that is
a firm commitment.
I wouldn't do that if I waslike in an interview with Sarah
(13:05):
Dobson, I went, oh, let merespond to this email real quick
, someone needs me.
But I was definitely protectingspace for other people or other
types of meetings and I you knowself-disclosure too.
I have a three-yearold and wehold boundaries with him all the
time.
I'm really good at that.
In other areas we would talkabout the importance of firm
boundaries, that our word isgood as gold.
We mean what we say we're goingto follow through.
(13:25):
So that was really, I think,eye-opening.
To apply that same level ofthis is good for you.
We're setting consistentboundaries to be helpful to
apply that to that writing time.
I think it's something I hadn'treally put together and was
super helpful to be protectingnose on that meeting.
I can't cancel, I can't writeover and when I'm in that
meeting time it needs to be whatI'm working on, like setting
those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, and just really honoring the commitment that
you're making to yourself, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is there anything in theprogram that you learned that
you didn't realize that youneeded to learn?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I think I didn't realize that I needed to learn.
I'm already doing the thingsthat I was worried about not
knowing how to do.
How am I going to step intothis role?
Well, you're doing that.
So I don't know if I knew thatI needed to have that check in,
that there isn't going to besome big checkout of like you're
ready, you're doing it, likethere's no external validation
(14:22):
of that.
It has to be like.
I think I didn't know.
I needed to recognize in myselfthat, yes, you are well
equipped with all the strategies.
Of course, different things wecould be doing to do, but
specific strategies orconversations I want to have
with super advisors as a mentor,always new skills we can be
(14:43):
learning in this space, but Ithink, coming in, you already
have all the skills you need tofrom the core, who you are, what
you're doing, your ability tosucceed in this Definitely was
eye-opening and I don't know ifI knew I needed that.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Definitely was eye-opening and I don't know if
I knew I needed thatno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So if you don't know how to do something, you know
how to find ways to do that.
And I hadn't applied that samelogic, thinking to myself I like
that that you had like the rubyslippers the whole time.
You didn't know you werewearing them.
Oh right, that does mean youknow how to do this.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, and one of the things that we sort of try on at
the very beginning of thecourse right, is those different
identities and the ways, like,if you're in a problem area, to
sort of put yourself in theposition of being a scientist in
your own professional life, inthe way that you're navigating
your career, so gatheringinformation, maybe doing a
(16:25):
little bit of trial and error,that kind of thing, and just
kind of taking on an identity inthe way that you might not
think about as a way to help yousolve those kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Think about as a way to help you solve those kinds of
problems.
Yeah, me phrasing it as that,this is a research question.
This is a scientific questionthat we're going to explore.
We're going to try on andhypothesize this could be
helpful, reduces that risk offear of failure, because we do
research and we test things allthe time, and that's comfortable
.
But the I'm going to try on adifferent identity can carry
more weight to it.
So the idea we're going toexplore and test this and if it
(16:58):
doesn't work, that's information.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Exactly, exactly and like we talk about all the time
in the course and on thispodcast, is all you can ever do
is take action and gather moreinformation and make a new
decision.
There is no right answer.
If you wait around for theright answer, it's never going
to come.
You just have to decide, takeaction and learn from it, and I
(17:25):
think a lot of that is taking onthat identity of the scientist
in your life and in your career.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what advice would you givesomebody who's considering
joining K to R Essentials abouthow to maximize their time in
the program, how to make themost of their time in the
program?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I think it goes back to that obvious advice of the
well, the more you engage withit, the more helpful it is, and
that seems like, the more youput in, the more you get out
right, right.
But I do think there's somethingabout like the willing to try
on things, especially if they'reoutside of comfort zone or
outside of things you mightalready be doing or things
you've already checked off, likeI know that doesn't work.
(18:08):
For me, that's not helpful tobe the willingness to try and
experience them anyway, becauseeven if that is that particular
action isn't what you need,maybe it's going to teach you
something insightful, eitherabout yourself or about the
process or what.
That why isn't that helpful?
That can be informative, Ithink too, and for our cohort,
(18:29):
when I went through this inparticular, this essentials
course, there's lots of externalthings going on and that
matters to like be verytransparent.
I don't think that we can ignorecontext, and I found it helpful
to continue to carve out spacewhere we do this anyway.
So part of this is alreadytrying on the commitment to the
work by making sure you're forme it was the committing to I'm
(18:49):
going to still do the course,I'm still going to do the
lessons, I'm still going to tryon the exercises, even though it
can be really chaotic to thinkabout what is this going to mean
?
More big picture.
So that's, I think tryingthings on any like the
commitment starts when you startthe course, and that could mean
engaging in the content Evenwhen there's distractions.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, well, I mean, let's let's talk about those
distractions.
That was.
My next question was was to toreally I mean contextualize the
ability to focus while all ofthe chaos swirled around you.
So can you tell us a little bitabout what that was like for
(19:45):
you?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, and it felt particularly interesting to be
stepping into a soft moneyfaculty position that January,
having accepted a position andstarting submitting documents to
launch into that and puttingaside some things that might
have been safer or differentkind of other faculty positions
that could have meant adifferent route.
And so lots of uncertainty andlots of questions like is this
(20:22):
the right choice?
Is this the best time for thiswork?
There can be highs and lowsthroughout that period.
I wouldn't say that there wasone feeling I had, I think, lots
of responding to the daily newswe were getting of conflicting
news and changes and what doesthis mean?
And really a lot of uncertainty.
And my decision on how tonavigate some of that
(20:43):
uncertainty was to keep doingthe work until we get told
otherwise.
Work until we get toldotherwise.
I'm not going to assume my workis not going to be funded or
that this isn't going to swingaround and be a priority for a
different administration or thatthere aren't other funders that
are going to want to look atthis.
We're trying to really focus onwhat could I control?
(21:04):
What are we being directly toldand balancing that?
My situation was reallydifferent from others who were
actively told we can't fund yourwork.
So there is this difficulty ofhow do you stay the course when
you know that's not an optionfor others around you and other
people that we were in ourcourse together or colleagues I
have outside of who are alsonavigating similar early career
(21:26):
faculty steps.
So I don't want to say thatbecause it is.
There were moments of where thisis this feel really hopeless,
like the futility of how do wedo this work.
But for me, staying in thatwasn't helpful, like the
activity proactively thinkingthat okay.
So how do we get creative?
When are we going to do that?
It's helpful.
(21:47):
Who else can we put on thisgrant?
Who maybe is going to be havingsome funding lapse because they
have a valuable skill set andwe want to make sure we can
continue to work with them.
So trying to think that way,creatively and strategically,
about our work is fundable.
Violence prevention is alwaysgoing to be an important issue.
People care about victims andtrauma and hearing that from our
leadership helps too.
So how do we pivot?
(22:08):
How do we get creative?
How do we stay in the work?
Because it matters if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, and were there any specific tools or resources
or skills that you picked up inthe program that you found
especially helpful to navigatethe moment?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
in the program that you found especially helpful to
navigate.
The moment, I'm going to goback to some of the allowing
there to be time for doomscrolling, for being concerned,
allowing space for that, andthen, when it comes this is the
time I was going to spendwriting this manuscript I'm
going to lock in, I'm not goingto allow that distress to be all
consuming and I can no longerbe productive for the day, like
kind of that.
And it's a probably a therapytechnique too that I had this
(22:54):
framework for like oh, like, soscheduled worrying.
I'm going to have scheduledwork time and then I'm going to
have scheduled time where I'mnot as productive, and so, if
I'm finding those intrusive ohgosh, the NIH just put out
something I really need to readthat news blast and that can
wait to the end of this halfhour when I'm done with this
test.
So I'm going to return to, Ithink, some of those skills in
the course about settingboundaries and about following
(23:18):
to the work.
That I think is going to beimportant is driving why did I
choose this money, this offmoney career in the first place?
Like, why did I choose thisfaculty position?
Going back to, why did I makethis choice Because I could have
done something else.
I thought this work wasimportant.
I think this work needs to bedone and that's still true
regardless of what's happeningoutside of the rooms where we're
(23:39):
seeing trauma patients and thatwork that's in front of you.
It needs to be done, so,remembering why we're doing the
work.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I just want to touch on what you
said earlier about scheduledworrying and sort of bringing
that therapeutic concept into it.
I think that's so important asa way to remind ourselves that
we are human and that we, yeah,put some constraints around it
so that it's not all-consuming,but just recognize, like, of
(24:06):
course, we're going to feelworried or fearful or whatever
sort of doom feelings that wehave.
It's completely understandablein the circumstances to feel
(24:28):
that way and we need to makespace for that, but we also need
to constrain it and make surethat we are continuing with the
things that we can control andthe work that we can do and the
work that's meaningful to us.
To, yeah, to, to keep movingforward yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think that having that balance is helpful, but not
at all to recognize there aredays when that balance isn't
your we think work-life balanceit isn't that perfect, equally
balanced that there are sometimes where that something's
going to take more of ourattention and I think that is
very legitimate and fair to me.
I want to just lift up thatthat experience is valid as well
(25:07):
.
The I was going to write todayand I can't is also important to
recognize.
The pushing through and saying,well, I'm going to do it anyway
is how we lead to burnout, andthat is you're not your best
self and can't continue the work, so pouring from an empty cup
all the so.
I think that is rest, beingsacred and productive as well.
Things, themes we discussed,certainly in the course, if not
(25:28):
outright tenets of lessons wepracticed, I think are important
to keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and that, to me , is a different facet of the
way that we talk about workingduring your best hours and
knowing when you're at your bestand when you can be most
efficient with your writing.
But a different facet of thatis just recognizing like some
days, even your best laid plansjust don't work out and you just
(25:55):
don't require that same levelof intense focus or deep
thinking.
You can still move the ballforward on other areas that
(26:18):
don't require that of you, ifyou just don't have the capacity
for it, and that is completelyunderstandable and something to
try to, you know, build intothose schedules.
Definitely, yeah, caitlin, isthere anything else you want to
talk about before we wrap uptoday?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I was thinking.
The only other thing that hasreally continued to stick with
me from this course is theimportance of, uh, recognizing
our wins and especially whenthings are, it's really easy to
focus on the negative.
Contextually, globally, there'sa lot like that and we need to
again the duality of holdingspace for that.
We should focus on that andtalk about it, and I think that
(27:00):
can mean, I mean, sometimes,that we really downplay the wins
we have if we do this all thetime, and even more so when well
gosh, is this really when thatimportant, given all everything
else that's going on?
And it is and this was broughtup to me, I think, not only
thinking about it resonating onthis.
How do I continue to do this?
(27:22):
And I have a new team memberwho's working with us and got
his very first publication everand it was easy, oh yeah, great.
So we got that accepted, let'sgo ahead and move on.
I'm already thinking and therewas this pause, we had this
meeting.
He's like isn't that so great?
I just was so excited to seethat email come through.
And did you go out andcelebrate?
I got dinner with my parents.
(27:42):
Just this very clearrecognition of that is worth
celebrating.
Yes is worth celebrating.
Yes, and I think justcontinuing to like yes, we
should celebrate these wins theydo matter, and that is hard to
do, and a good reminder likewhether it takes external
reminders and continuing tosurround ourselves with people
who will also celebrate thosewins with us, um, and allow
(28:04):
space for sharing those wins ishuge.
So I think trying to continueto do that practice because it's
easy to fall back into what'sthe next thing or what's more
important but I thinkcelebration of our even big wins
, small wins, is huge, and soI'm glad that we did as a group
together in this course.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, that's such a great insight it is.
You know, it's the plight ofall high achievers to just
quickly move on to the nextthing you know, outside of the
context of our community, and tobuild in ways, either
individually or collectivelywith your lab or your colleagues
, to celebrate those wins.
And, of course, also that twothings can be true that there's
(29:02):
a lot of upheaval, a lot ofterrible things happening in the
world, and also it's importantto celebrate and acknowledge
when good things happen, becausethat's what allows us to keep
going Good.
Well, what a great way to wrapup.
Thank you so much, caitlin, forbeing here today, for sharing
(29:24):
your experience inside theprogram and, of course, please
keep in touch.
Let us know how you're doing,how the work is progressing, and
thank you again.
Yeah, absolutely Thank you forhaving me.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Significant Impact
from K Award to your first bigR01.
(29:46):
If you want to dig deeper intowhat we learned today and move a
significant step closer to asmooth K-to-R transition, visit
sarahdobsonco slash pod andcheck out all the free stuff we
have to help you do just that.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show to make sure you hear
new episodes as soon as they'rereleased, and if today's episode
made you think of a colleagueor a friend, please tell them
(30:08):
about it.
Tune in next time and thanksagain for listening.
Thank you.
If you aren't already on the wait list for the next
cohort of K-R Essentials, headto our website to sign up so
that you can be the first tohear all the details about the
program and to get yourquestions answered.
You can do that atsarahdobsonco slash k2r that's
S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O.
Slash K, number 2 R.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
(00:22):
Essentials graduate.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
Essentials graduate.
These episodes are reallyspecial.
They're a little longer than atypical episode.
You'll hear from me and, ofcourse, you get to hear directly
from a former student abouttheir experience in the program.
The reason I love theseconversations so much, aside
from getting to chat with agraduate, is because it's one
(00:51):
thing to hear me talk about theperspectives and tools that I
teach inside K-R Essentials, butit's another thing entirely to
hear someone who's applied thosetools and perspectives in their
own career and to hear whathappened when they did.
Here's our conversation.
Welcome, welcome.
The first thing, of course, isto introduce yourself and share
your pronouns.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Sure, my name is Caitlin Rancher and my pronouns
are she, her.
So I'm a clinical psychologistby training and my work is
really focused on studying theconsequences of children's
exposure to violence and traumaand testing parenting-based
interventions to help familiesand victims exposed to trauma.
And I was really drawn to thiswork early on with a clinical
(01:30):
experience where I was workingwith children in this
after-school program who wereexperiencing really significant
levels of behavior problems anddistress and trauma is super
ubiquitous across thispopulation, really common.
But what we found was there'sreally big differences in child
adjustment.
Some kids were doing reallywell and some were really
struggling.
So I was drawn to this questionof risk and resiliency and who
(01:53):
does well and how can we buildthat resilience in kids who
aren't doing so well.
And caregivers support.
This importance of havingsomeone in your corner, someone
who's going to show up for you,help protect you, listen to you,
help you access all thesereally helpful resources emerge
as a really important factor.
So large focus my current workis trying to continue to
(02:13):
understand those risk resiliencefactors who does well after
child trauma and how can wesupport those helpers who are
getting them in the door?
How can we build up caregivers.
How can we increase theirabilities, their self-efficacy
to provide that really pivotalprotection and care for these
kids who've experienced trauma?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And that's the work that you're currently doing in
your K.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
It is.
So the K99-ROO that I have wasspecifically designed to
recognize not only arecaregivers important and really
in need of our help and servicesand how to improve their
abilities to provide thatemotional support and showing up
for their children, but we havereally good programs that do
that already.
We have like trauma-focused CBT, parent-child interaction
(02:56):
therapy, pcit.
We have all these really goodprograms, but they're lengthy
they take eight to 20 sessionslong to deliver.
They take extensive resourcesin terms of training time,
personnel power to learn how todo them with fidelity and then
to actually deliver them.
And so families on our traumatreatment waitlist spend months
(03:17):
waiting to get those reallyeffective, helpful treatments.
And so what we're doing withthis K99 and onto this next
phase of the research is whatcan we do while they're waiting?
Can we offer something like abrief parenting program to
caregivers and their families onthe waitlist for trauma-focused
treatment to give themsomething to help teach some of
these foundational skills tobetter prepare them for later
(03:39):
trauma-focused treatment, forlater trauma-focused treatment?
But there's a couple nuances andchallenges, of course,
recognizing that they're on thewait list for a reason, because
the provider is not available.
So how do we leverage ourparaprofessional workforce.
How do we get folks in the doorwho might be able to do this
even if they're not licensed?
What can we teach them todeliver these services and how
do we pay for this?
(03:59):
How do we implement it inexisting systems of care?
So that's the broad scope ofwhat we're trying to do and
seeing some really positivethings.
So now we're on to the pilottest of let's do it, let's try
it on, let's see if we canactually deliver this with
paraprofessionals, two familieson the wait list and early
signals.
Look like it's going to work.
It's going to be helpful.
We don't anticipate this willreplace treatment, but more of a
(04:20):
stepped care model.
Can this will replace treatment, but more of a stepped care
model?
Can we get folks engaged sothey can get to the good stuff?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, that sounds like really meaningful,
rewarding work to be doing, yeah, good.
So, caitlin, when you cast yourmind back to the fall of 2024
and what was going on in yourK99-R00 way back then, what is
it that you were challenged by,struggling with, and what was it
(04:52):
that led you to seek out thesupport of K to R Essentials?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, that was this really critical time where I was
trying to figure out how do Itransition my K99 to the ROO and
this really neat kangaroomechanism but brings with it a
lot of challenges.
There's a big career transitionpoint from your early career,
your advanced postdoc, butgetting into faculty and needing
to find and secure a facultyposition and wanting to seek
(05:22):
some external mentorship on whatwas the best way to do that, to
navigate that transition.
Probably some internet searcheson legitimate what does K to R
look like and a different kindof K to R was what I was
thinking.
But that's how I stumbledacross this Essentials course
and I think for me too there's alot of mentorship.
I was getting on my K, but in avery specific focus on the
(05:43):
project or on my professionaldevelopment in that space, and
so I wanted to think about morebroadly how do I transition from
trainee to independent facultyand to be really thoughtful
about what do I want to set upup front, what guardrails do I
want in place?
What do I want to be lookingfor as I pursue a new position
and think about this R phase andthe next R phase beyond this
(06:06):
R00.
Yeah, so those are like justlooking for that outside
guidance really.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, can you remember anything specific about
that transition that you wereespecially uncertain about?
Or like, what was itspecifically about the
transition from mentee to PIthat you were like how do I do
this?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think there's something about going off the
written map.
The rules of engagement are veryclear and I think we talked
about this in your course andthat spoke to me too.
But I think in my experiencethere is a going through
graduate school, there'scriteria on how to succeed and
what that looks like, benchmarks, and same for even the K99
postdoctoral training, thatthere are explicit external
(06:52):
guidance on how to do that, andsuddenly that kind of falls away
and there, of course, there'sstill some rules that you have
to follow to do the bare corecomponents of your faculty
position and job.
But what that looks like, whatkind of faculty position that
looks like?
Suddenly there wasn't a rulebook, and I think that's good,
that's exciting, but that was achallenge and I think that was
(07:13):
part of the maybe looking foranother rule book, like, well,
what is that transition Like?
How do one succeed at that?
But I think, trying to get somemore understanding of if there
isn't a specific list ofcriteria on faculty success,
then what is going to be guidingmy actions, my decisions, how I
engage in the workplace andwhere I'm spending my energy and
(07:35):
time.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, I think that's such a really well.
It's such a good point that youbring up we do talk a lot about
that in the course right such agood point that you bring up we
do talk a lot about that in thecourse right About not having a
roadmap anymore and that you'vegotten this far in your career
by checking off all those boxesand exceeding a lot of those
expectations that are laid outfor you.
But as soon as you get to theedge of that cliff and there are
(07:59):
no more expectations, what doyou do and how do you set that
up for yourself?
And so that's really the workof the program and a lot of the
work that you engaged in duringyour time in the program
different ways, but, as I'm sureyou recognized in the course,
(08:28):
in my view, a lot of theseskills and habits that we're
building up are relevant nomatter where you are in your
career.
They are useful to either learnfor the first time or revisit
and refine just to make surethat you're creating your own
map and that you are figuringthings out for yourself.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Definitely, and I think there's some points even
from this course that aredesigned for the specific career
stage and for this particulargroup of learners that I have
pulled out and talked about.
In some of a really nicely time.
We're doing some facultystrategic planning and able to
say, hey, have we thought aboutdoing something like there's
this idea of a skills matrix andkind of adapting the?
Have we thought about toimprove, like, enhance
(09:13):
collaboration across faculty?
What would this look like if weknew what each other's
strengths are, where we neededto shore up or who we needed to
consult with?
And it's been really interestingto see how these skills and
some of the thinking that wework on this course does
translate across the facultyspectrum and probably other
areas too.
It just has been this immediateapplication for even senior
(09:34):
faculty thinking.
Oh yeah, I don't even know if Iknow myself Like I am an expert
in all these things and I'm notbeing asked to collaborate on
grants or opportunities thatcould be research projects,
because people don't know thatabout me.
So just really interesting,that level of introspection and
insight and sharing how tocommunicate that effectively is
kind of universally helpful, notjust for Earth.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So do you.
We talked a little bit aboutwhat you were seeking out, what
you found challenging, kind of.
At that particular career point, do you remember what it is
that you hoped that you wouldaccomplish in the program?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And I think I wonder if there was explicit learning
objectives.
I came in with Probably nothingso formal, I do think, trying
to engage.
What would it look like to takeon the mindset of I am ready to
write the R01, that I am asuccessful, whatever that might
mean, that definition, thatembodiment of I have the mindset
(10:34):
to be prepared to take on thisnext career stage with
confidence and as well as Ithink even that I was really
hoping to, I think, learn someof the day-to-day like how do I
want to be spending my time?
What does this look like?
Transitioning from postdoc wherethere's a lot of flexibility, a
(10:54):
lot fewer responsibilities, alot of freedom to set final
meetings, pursue different typesof research agendas and write
manuscripts and grants and lotsof protected time that goes away
when you become faculty.
Suddenly there's a lot ofexciting opportunities to
participate in a lot of meetings, a lot of new committees and
(11:16):
things that I could be doing andI know in myself that that's
exciting and I want to say yesto things.
And so, trying to figure out,come in with a strategic plan
for myself of what is going tobe most serving, what do I want
to be spending my time on so Ican approach that thoughtfully
Again.
So I think, just morethoughtfulness if that's the big
takeaway I was hoping to getwas the have the mindset to take
(11:38):
on this new challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, I think that's, you know, being thoughtful and
being intentional about how youspend your time is something
that we really focus on insidethe program, and so where did
you end up with that?
How did that go?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It's ironic and, of course, the things that we know
are helpful, like when you planyour time, like when you
actually block your calendar,when you actually think about
what am I doing that thatactually is super helpful.
And it's the same kind offrustration, the irony of like,
well, yeah, if I actually sleepand I exercise and I eat, right,
I feel better.
It's the same kind of thinglike that.
What we know works works.
(12:15):
It is the oh right, we have toactually do it and engage.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, isn't that so annoying.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
The worst, but it's true and super helpful.
And I think what I foundparticularly compelling from
some of that because I knew someof that like yeah, if I
scheduled writing time and if Icommit to things, I knew that.
But some of I think the nuancethat I got from the course, in
particular with that, wasprotecting the no and setting
boundaries with myself, thingsthat, oh gosh, this person
(12:43):
really is asking can I respondto this email right away?
Or they're asking for help, orthis is these crises that come
up that don't need to beaddressed during the writing
time.
But I was eager to be helpfulor to respond to those
immediately.
So the really recognizing that,holding that as space, that is
a firm commitment.
I wouldn't do that if I waslike in an interview with Sarah
(13:05):
Dobson, I went, oh, let merespond to this email real quick
, someone needs me.
But I was definitely protectingspace for other people or other
types of meetings and I you knowself-disclosure too.
I have a three-yearold and wehold boundaries with him all the
time.
I'm really good at that.
In other areas we would talkabout the importance of firm
boundaries, that our word isgood as gold.
We mean what we say we're goingto follow through.
(13:25):
So that was really, I think,eye-opening.
To apply that same level ofthis is good for you.
We're setting consistentboundaries to be helpful to
apply that to that writing time.
I think it's something I hadn'treally put together and was
super helpful to be protectingnose on that meeting.
I can't cancel, I can't writeover and when I'm in that
meeting time it needs to be whatI'm working on, like setting
those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, and just really honoring the commitment that
you're making to yourself, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is there anything in theprogram that you learned that
you didn't realize that youneeded to learn?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I think I didn't realize that I needed to learn.
I'm already doing the thingsthat I was worried about not
knowing how to do.
How am I going to step intothis role?
Well, you're doing that.
So I don't know if I knew thatI needed to have that check in,
that there isn't going to besome big checkout of like you're
ready, you're doing it, likethere's no external validation
(14:22):
of that.
It has to be like.
I think I didn't know.
I needed to recognize in myselfthat, yes, you are well
equipped with all the strategies.
Of course, different things wecould be doing to do, but
specific strategies orconversations I want to have
with super advisors as a mentor,always new skills we can be
(14:43):
learning in this space, but Ithink, coming in, you already
have all the skills you need tofrom the core, who you are, what
you're doing, your ability tosucceed in this Definitely was
eye-opening and I don't know ifI knew I needed that.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Definitely was eye-opening and I don't know if
I knew I needed thatno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So if you don't know how to do something, you know
how to find ways to do that.
And I hadn't applied that samelogic, thinking to myself I like
that that you had like the rubyslippers the whole time.
You didn't know you werewearing them.
Oh right, that does mean youknow how to do this.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, and one of the things that we sort of try on at
the very beginning of thecourse right, is those different
identities and the ways, like,if you're in a problem area, to
sort of put yourself in theposition of being a scientist in
your own professional life, inthe way that you're navigating
your career, so gatheringinformation, maybe doing a
(16:25):
little bit of trial and error,that kind of thing, and just
kind of taking on an identity inthe way that you might not
think about as a way to help yousolve those kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Think about as a way to help you solve those kinds of
problems.
Yeah, me phrasing it as that,this is a research question.
This is a scientific questionthat we're going to explore.
We're going to try on andhypothesize this could be
helpful, reduces that risk offear of failure, because we do
research and we test things allthe time, and that's comfortable
.
But the I'm going to try on adifferent identity can carry
more weight to it.
So the idea we're going toexplore and test this and if it
(16:58):
doesn't work, that's information.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Exactly, exactly and like we talk about all the time
in the course and on thispodcast, is all you can ever do
is take action and gather moreinformation and make a new
decision.
There is no right answer.
If you wait around for theright answer, it's never going
to come.
You just have to decide, takeaction and learn from it, and I
(17:25):
think a lot of that is taking onthat identity of the scientist
in your life and in your career.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what advice would you givesomebody who's considering
joining K to R Essentials abouthow to maximize their time in
the program, how to make themost of their time in the
program?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I think it goes back to that obvious advice of the
well, the more you engage withit, the more helpful it is, and
that seems like, the more youput in, the more you get out
right, right.
But I do think there's somethingabout like the willing to try
on things, especially if they'reoutside of comfort zone or
outside of things you mightalready be doing or things
you've already checked off, likeI know that doesn't work.
(18:08):
For me, that's not helpful tobe the willingness to try and
experience them anyway, becauseeven if that is that particular
action isn't what you need,maybe it's going to teach you
something insightful, eitherabout yourself or about the
process or what.
That why isn't that helpful?
That can be informative, Ithink too, and for our cohort,
(18:29):
when I went through this inparticular, this essentials
course, there's lots of externalthings going on and that
matters to like be verytransparent.
I don't think that we can ignorecontext, and I found it helpful
to continue to carve out spacewhere we do this anyway.
So part of this is alreadytrying on the commitment to the
work by making sure you're forme it was the committing to I'm
(18:49):
going to still do the course,I'm still going to do the
lessons, I'm still going to tryon the exercises, even though it
can be really chaotic to thinkabout what is this going to mean
?
More big picture.
So that's, I think tryingthings on any like the
commitment starts when you startthe course, and that could mean
engaging in the content Evenwhen there's distractions.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, well, I mean, let's let's talk about those
distractions.
That was.
My next question was was to toreally I mean contextualize the
ability to focus while all ofthe chaos swirled around you.
So can you tell us a little bitabout what that was like for
(19:45):
you?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, and it felt particularly interesting to be
stepping into a soft moneyfaculty position that January,
having accepted a position andstarting submitting documents to
launch into that and puttingaside some things that might
have been safer or differentkind of other faculty positions
that could have meant adifferent route.
And so lots of uncertainty andlots of questions like is this
(20:22):
the right choice?
Is this the best time for thiswork?
There can be highs and lowsthroughout that period.
I wouldn't say that there wasone feeling I had, I think, lots
of responding to the daily newswe were getting of conflicting
news and changes and what doesthis mean?
And really a lot of uncertainty.
And my decision on how tonavigate some of that
(20:43):
uncertainty was to keep doingthe work until we get told
otherwise.
Work until we get toldotherwise.
I'm not going to assume my workis not going to be funded or
that this isn't going to swingaround and be a priority for a
different administration or thatthere aren't other funders that
are going to want to look atthis.
We're trying to really focus onwhat could I control?
(21:04):
What are we being directly toldand balancing that?
My situation was reallydifferent from others who were
actively told we can't fund yourwork.
So there is this difficulty ofhow do you stay the course when
you know that's not an optionfor others around you and other
people that we were in ourcourse together or colleagues I
have outside of who are alsonavigating similar early career
(21:26):
faculty steps.
So I don't want to say thatbecause it is.
There were moments of where thisis this feel really hopeless,
like the futility of how do wedo this work.
But for me, staying in thatwasn't helpful, like the
activity proactively thinkingthat okay.
So how do we get creative?
When are we going to do that?
It's helpful.
(21:47):
Who else can we put on thisgrant?
Who maybe is going to be havingsome funding lapse because they
have a valuable skill set andwe want to make sure we can
continue to work with them.
So trying to think that way,creatively and strategically,
about our work is fundable.
Violence prevention is alwaysgoing to be an important issue.
People care about victims andtrauma and hearing that from our
leadership helps too.
So how do we pivot?
(22:08):
How do we get creative?
How do we stay in the work?
Because it matters if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, and were there any specific tools or resources
or skills that you picked up inthe program that you found
especially helpful to navigatethe moment?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
in the program that you found especially helpful to
navigate.
The moment, I'm going to goback to some of the allowing
there to be time for doomscrolling, for being concerned,
allowing space for that, andthen, when it comes this is the
time I was going to spendwriting this manuscript I'm
going to lock in, I'm not goingto allow that distress to be all
consuming and I can no longerbe productive for the day, like
kind of that.
And it's a probably a therapytechnique too that I had this
(22:54):
framework for like oh, like, soscheduled worrying.
I'm going to have scheduledwork time and then I'm going to
have scheduled time where I'mnot as productive, and so, if
I'm finding those intrusive ohgosh, the NIH just put out
something I really need to readthat news blast and that can
wait to the end of this halfhour when I'm done with this
test.
So I'm going to return to, Ithink, some of those skills in
the course about settingboundaries and about following
(23:18):
to the work.
That I think is going to beimportant is driving why did I
choose this money, this offmoney career in the first place?
Like, why did I choose thisfaculty position?
Going back to, why did I makethis choice Because I could have
done something else.
I thought this work wasimportant.
I think this work needs to bedone and that's still true
regardless of what's happeningoutside of the rooms where we're
(23:39):
seeing trauma patients and thatwork that's in front of you.
It needs to be done, so,remembering why we're doing the
work.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I just want to touch on what you
said earlier about scheduledworrying and sort of bringing
that therapeutic concept into it.
I think that's so important asa way to remind ourselves that
we are human and that we, yeah,put some constraints around it
so that it's not all-consuming,but just recognize, like, of
(24:06):
course, we're going to feelworried or fearful or whatever
sort of doom feelings that wehave.
It's completely understandablein the circumstances to feel
(24:28):
that way and we need to makespace for that, but we also need
to constrain it and make surethat we are continuing with the
things that we can control andthe work that we can do and the
work that's meaningful to us.
To, yeah, to, to keep movingforward yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think that having that balance is helpful, but not
at all to recognize there aredays when that balance isn't
your we think work-life balanceit isn't that perfect, equally
balanced that there are sometimes where that something's
going to take more of ourattention and I think that is
very legitimate and fair to me.
I want to just lift up thatthat experience is valid as well
(25:07):
.
The I was going to write todayand I can't is also important to
recognize.
The pushing through and saying,well, I'm going to do it anyway
is how we lead to burnout, andthat is you're not your best
self and can't continue the work, so pouring from an empty cup
all the so.
I think that is rest, beingsacred and productive as well.
Things, themes we discussed,certainly in the course, if not
(25:28):
outright tenets of lessons wepracticed, I think are important
to keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and that, to me , is a different facet of the
way that we talk about workingduring your best hours and
knowing when you're at your bestand when you can be most
efficient with your writing.
But a different facet of thatis just recognizing like some
days, even your best laid plansjust don't work out and you just
(25:55):
don't require that same levelof intense focus or deep
thinking.
You can still move the ballforward on other areas that
(26:18):
don't require that of you, ifyou just don't have the capacity
for it, and that is completelyunderstandable and something to
try to, you know, build intothose schedules.
Definitely, yeah, caitlin, isthere anything else you want to
talk about before we wrap uptoday?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I was thinking.
The only other thing that hasreally continued to stick with
me from this course is theimportance of, uh, recognizing
our wins and especially whenthings are, it's really easy to
focus on the negative.
Contextually, globally, there'sa lot like that and we need to
again the duality of holdingspace for that.
We should focus on that andtalk about it, and I think that
(27:00):
can mean, I mean, sometimes,that we really downplay the wins
we have if we do this all thetime, and even more so when well
gosh, is this really when thatimportant, given all everything
else that's going on?
And it is and this was broughtup to me, I think, not only
thinking about it resonating onthis.
How do I continue to do this?
(27:22):
And I have a new team memberwho's working with us and got
his very first publication everand it was easy, oh yeah, great.
So we got that accepted, let'sgo ahead and move on.
I'm already thinking and therewas this pause, we had this
meeting.
He's like isn't that so great?
I just was so excited to seethat email come through.
And did you go out andcelebrate?
I got dinner with my parents.
(27:42):
Just this very clearrecognition of that is worth
celebrating.
Yes is worth celebrating.
Yes, and I think justcontinuing to like yes, we
should celebrate these wins theydo matter, and that is hard to
do, and a good reminder likewhether it takes external
reminders and continuing tosurround ourselves with people
who will also celebrate thosewins with us, um, and allow
(28:04):
space for sharing those wins ishuge.
So I think trying to continueto do that practice because it's
easy to fall back into what'sthe next thing or what's more
important but I thinkcelebration of our even big wins
, small wins, is huge, and soI'm glad that we did as a group
together in this course.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, that's such a great insight it is.
You know, it's the plight ofall high achievers to just
quickly move on to the nextthing you know, outside of the
context of our community, and tobuild in ways, either
individually or collectivelywith your lab or your colleagues
, to celebrate those wins.
And, of course, also that twothings can be true that there's
(29:02):
a lot of upheaval, a lot ofterrible things happening in the
world, and also it's importantto celebrate and acknowledge
when good things happen, becausethat's what allows us to keep
going Good.
Well, what a great way to wrapup.
Thank you so much, caitlin, forbeing here today, for sharing
(29:24):
your experience inside theprogram and, of course, please
keep in touch.
Let us know how you're doing,how the work is progressing, and
thank you again.
Yeah, absolutely Thank you forhaving me.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Significant Impact
from K Award to your first bigR01.
(29:46):
If you want to dig deeper intowhat we learned today and move a
significant step closer to asmooth K-to-R transition, visit
sarahdobsonco slash pod andcheck out all the free stuff we
have to help you do just that.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show to make sure you hear
new episodes as soon as they'rereleased, and if today's episode
made you think of a colleagueor a friend, please tell them
(30:08):
about it.
Tune in next time and thanksagain for listening.
Thank you.
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