August 7, 2025 • 29 mins
Transitioning from K to R grant funding demands more than just technical knowledge—it requires a fundamental shift in scientific identity and leadership. K to R Essentials graduate Haixia Zheng, PhD shares her journey from K Award success to preparing for her R grant submission.
In our conversation we discuss:
• Comparing grant writing to "playing chess without knowing the rules"
• Developing "inner mentorship" skills to evaluate advice critically
• Learning to decline mentor suggestions that didn't align with research vision
• Using prioritization to overcome productivity challenges
• Overcoming tendencies to avoid difficult but important work
• Gaining clarity on research vision and leadership approach
Her story reminds us that creating a sustainable research career requires not just technical expertise, but the courage to define your own path and prioritize what truly matters.
Ready to transform your approach to research leadership? Visit https://sarahdobson.co/k2r to join the waitlist for the next K to R Essentials cohort.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
If you aren't already on the wait list for the next
cohort of K-R Essentials, headto our website to sign up so
that you can be the first tohear all the details about the
program and to get yourquestions answered.
You can do that atsarahdobsonco slash k2r that's
S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O.
Slash K, number 2 R.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
(00:22):
Essentials graduate.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
Essentials graduate.
These episodes are reallyspecial.
They're a little longer than atypical episode.
You'll hear from me and, ofcourse, you get to hear directly
from a former student abouttheir experience in the program.
The reason I love theseconversations so much, aside
from getting to chat with agraduate is because it's one
(00:51):
thing to hear me talk about theperspectives and tools that I
teach inside K-R Essentials, butit's another thing entirely to
hear someone who's applied thosetools and perspectives in their
own career and to hear whathappened when they did.
Here's our conversation,welcome.
So can you introduce yourselfand tell us your pronouns and a
bit about your research?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Hi, my name is Hai-Sha Zeng and I'm currently
an associate investigator workfor a place called Laurier
Institute for Brain Research,which is located in Tulsa,
oklahoma.
So I got my PhD from Japan andmoved to Oklahoma in 2019 as a
postdoc and then I was prettylucky to get promoted as
(01:34):
associate investigator likeassistant research assistant
professor level in just two anda half years and I wrote my K01
a year into my after.
After I got promoted, I I wrotemy K01 and got funded on my
first try, which I have to thankfor your what's that K award
(01:59):
formula yeah, it's the grantfunding formula.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's the K award class.
Yeah, yeah, I remember youmentioning that.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, it helped me a lot and my research is about.
I've been studying how viralinfection and immune activation
affect brain structure andfunction in the context of
depression, and so that's mywork and my case about bringing
this line of research to apopulation level using
(02:27):
longitudinal data and integrateall the genetic biomarker,
behavior neural imaging alltogether to really dive deeper
into whether this link betweenviral infection can lead to
brain change and increased riskfor depression and other mental
health and, if so, then usingall this data and statistical
(02:52):
method to see if we canunderstand some mechanistic
understanding in terms of theneurobiological pathways.
So my overarching researchprogram is about viral infection
, brain change and how thatincreased the risk of mental
health, particularly depression.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And can you tell me a little bit about what drew you
to that work in the first place?
What was it about that workthat was fascinating to you?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well.
So my background was clinicalpsychology and cognitive
neuroscience.
I was not intended to enter thefield called immunopsychiatry,
like bringing the immunologycomponent.
At the time I actually needed ajob and for my personal reason
(03:51):
I have to move to Tulsa, veryspecific, and there's only one
place I can work for.
So I bring my skill to this lab, immunopsychiatry.
The PI happy to hire me becauseI have the skill he needs and
he doesn't have.
So that worked out pretty well.
I published and then I usedthose publications as a stepping
(04:14):
stone to get my K.
So it's a little bit accidental, just by chance bump into this,
this field, um.
However, I think that's a um.
I was lucky that it worked out.
You know, I get to, I get tohave my k, but I don't think
(04:37):
it's the best strategy to.
You know, do things like thatyeah, I mean fair enough.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I I will say that I had, uh, I mean, similar
experiences, just wanting to, orneeding to to move to a new
place and and find work, and, Iwould say, allowing the work
that I was doing to open up newinterests and new possibilities
(05:05):
for things that I did genuinelyfind interesting but never would
have encountered had it notbeen for this sort of
serendipitous job.
And so, yeah, I agree, like Idon't know that it's a great
strategy necessarily, but Ithink it's important to.
Yeah, I think it's important tostay open to those opportunities
(05:28):
and let your curiosity take youto new places and let yourself
be sort of influenced by theenvironment that you're in.
I mean, yeah, like I said, I'vedefinitely had those
experiences myself, so I get it.
Yeah, I really do.
But yeah, I really do.
So, haisha, can you cast yourmind back to the fall of 2024
(05:55):
and remember what you wereexperiencing back then as you
were working on your K Award,and some of the challenges that
you were encountering that ledyou to seek out K to R
Essentials?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Challenges.
Okay, because I never write.
I have never written any grantBecause my PhD was from Japan.
I didn't even have the conceptthat I need to write a grant to
support myself, my career, myresearch and stuff.
So it's this thing that I'venever done before.
(06:34):
I have no idea how to do it.
I was desperately needed somebasic guideline.
It's very much like you wereforced to play a chess game and
people tell you all the rates ofwinning this game is really low
and then you don't even knowthe rule of the game.
(06:55):
That's terrifying, yeah, that'sterrifying.
So you know I try to writespecific aim.
And the mentor?
You know they try to besupportive and help, but they
don't know how to teach you orthey don't have.
You know they don't.
They might know you made amistake here or there.
They give you comments, but youknow I just keep revising,
(07:18):
revising and never get them tosay, yes, this is a great, to
that level of saying this is agreat aim, and they will give
you feedback, say, oh, nobodyever gets it right.
You just try your best, butthat's not good enough, because
now I know specific aim.
Actually, every single, everysingle sentence have its own
purpose.
(07:38):
There's a why to write, there'sa way you need to structure
every single sentence, everysingle paragraph, so so that
kind of comments or edits frommentor is not enough.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so what was it that you were hoping to
accomplish inside of K to REssentials?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
K to R Essentials.
So after you get the K, thewhole point of K is get to next
R.
So it's not really aboutcompleting your K, it's about
how to transition into R.
And now that's a similarsituation as I described before.
This is a different task thanwriting the K and analyzing data
(08:27):
published in your paper.
This is now a brand newchallenge and I don't have skill
and training and I don't knowthe rule you know.
So I was at the same position.
I desperately need to know moreabout what is this all about
and how do I plan myself andprepare myself for that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, and I think what's different in my view
about you know, securing a Kaward and then making that
transition from K to R, is thatit's not just about learning how
to write a new grant, it'sabout so many other things that
surround the getting of majorresearch project funding, and
(09:13):
it's about understanding thatyou need to kind of create your
own path and your own roadmap.
And so the rules some of thoserules that worked to get your
K-Word just don't apply anymore,and that in itself is
terrifying.
If you're accustomed tofiguring out what the rules are,
(09:34):
following the rules and justchecking those boxes, now you're
in a whole new world wherethere are no check boxes.
You have to kind of make yourown.
And yeah, I mean that to me iswhy the program exists is to
help everybody figure out whatthose checkboxes are for
themselves and create the typeof career that works for them.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
After I went through this K2 Archon essential cohort,
I'm still not comfortable.
I feel like there's so manythings I need to continue to
learn and digest and, you know,work on figure it out.
(10:19):
But at least I got some general.
I would say it pointed me inthe right direction, because no
course would be like a magicalgive you or get you ready for
your own transition.
Like you said, it's about yourown path.
You create your own map.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
So, yeah, there's a lot of things I still need to
figure out and, little by little, create that path for myself
exactly, yeah, and, and like wetalk about at the very in our
very first call, is the, thesort of stages of learning a new
skill.
There's learning, and thenthere's integrating, and then
(11:03):
there's mastering.
And what I tell everybody is Idon't expect you to master any
of these skills in four months.
That is too high a bar for anyof you to set for yourselves.
If you're coming in fresh with,you know, having never, never,
learned this skill before, to gofrom learning something new to
mastering it in four months isunrealistic, right.
(11:25):
But to recognize that it is askill that you could implement
and begin to integrate into yourlife, like that's the piece
that I really want to make surethat everybody has.
When we're talking aboutfoundational skills, right, if
you're learning something new,it's just understand what the
skill is and how it might beuseful to you and then, over
(11:46):
time, with practice, that's whenyou can move towards real
integration and, ultimately,mastery.
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah, so you're right ontrack.
So can you tell us somethingthat you did learn inside the
course that has helped you?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
um, I think I, I think every mod module, so we
got four different modules right, every module.
I learned a lot of again, a lotof clarity, because I was, I
was, I was, I wasn't sure aboutmy scientific program, the
vision vision, like where mynose start, using the language,
(12:31):
and so I think I get more clearon that than before.
That's helpful.
And the leadership part we talkabout in a mentor, that's the
piece that really really helpedme and I think it's very
important thing for me to learn,because I have always been
(12:55):
relying on people give me advice, like my mentor, my boss, my
director, I have.
I just grew up this way peoplekind of give me advice, tell me
what to do, and I just followed.
But we're at the position PI,you're running your own lab, and
some people are really good atthat because they grew up in a
(13:16):
way that you know, have theirown mind and they go after their
dream or whatever.
But for me I definitely neededthat part and you know, just
like when I talk about okay, youknow advice, just like the when
I talk about K, and you knowspecific and the comments and or
advice from other people.
(13:37):
It's from their standing point,based on their experience and
you are not them, you not beable to implement that in a way
they, they, you know implied andit may not work for you.
Um so, and different peoplewill give you completely
opposite advice sometimes.
(13:58):
Then how do you make thatdecision for yourself?
So you, you the best person toguide yourself to you and and I
learned that from that courseand I think it is super helpful-
and so can you say a little bitmore about how that has changed
, how you act in your career orthe decisions you make?
(14:33):
Yeah, so there's two pieces ofit.
Oh, I can give you an example.
The other day I had a meetingwith my director and my director
is also my primary mentor, my K, and he suggests oh, why don't
you use the electronic healthrecord data?
In these days, you know, toanswer some of your research
(14:55):
questions, I can give you highimpact paper because we have
this, that that you know In thepast.
I will be, I will jump in orthink, yes, we have a resource
to do that and that sounds likea great idea.
My boss and my mentor want meto do that.
I'm happy to do it.
(15:16):
However, after I get moreclarity on my vision, I would
notice my research program isnot about clinical trial
programs, not about clinicaltrial, and that you know.
He wanted me to study, so Istudied viral infection and
(15:37):
depression.
He's asked, he's basicallyasked question does the
depressed people have this viralinfection response differently
to certain treatment?
And that's not my hypothesisbehind my research program and
also, it's not a researchdirection I want to go.
(15:58):
I would never want to knowwhether it's just not a research
question that I care about andI would never run a clinical
trial to even test it out.
I don't see my R next grant,next project coming out from
that project if I undertake.
So.
I explained to him in a logicalway.
(16:21):
I told him this is not myhypothesis and I have my plan
one, two, three and stuff.
And he was very pleased.
The whole time he was smilingat me.
He was happy that I have my ownmind.
I know, you know, I'm kind ofthink things through these
things, not just jump right in.
(16:41):
And he's a good mentor.
He, I think he acknowledgedthere's some maturity in terms
of being a junior faculty to beable to say no to you know, he's
coming from a good intention.
He thought that could help me.
He thought that could help myresearch program.
(17:03):
But I explained to him that no,this is going to waste my time,
not not for my purpose yeah,yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think that is such a good illustration of what you
said before about how you, howyou interpret advice and
recommendations and feedbackfrom other people.
Right, because it's coming fromtheir own opinions and their
own perspectives and and that'sprobably what what he would have
done if he were in yourposition, because that is a
(17:33):
question that's interesting tohim.
But because, yeah, and becauseyou got really clear on your
vision and the types ofquestions that were interesting
to you, you were able toarticulate that to him and say,
look, no, this is not adirection that I want to move
into.
This is what my hypothesis is,this is where my program of
(17:55):
research is headed and I'm notgoing to let that distract me
and.
I, I mean I could not be happierto hear that that is exactly
what we want our students to see.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
On top of that, I also very clear about my own
skills.
So he's a clinician, he caresabout treatment, treatment
response and he runs tons ofclinical trials.
So for him that's a logicalnext step to do.
But for me I told him I haven'tbuilt up any clinical trial
experience, so this type ofresearch question will never be
(18:33):
the type of grant I will bewriting.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, and it's not only that you haven't built up
that type of experience, but youhave no desire to.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, yeah, right, so it's.
I mean, it's both of thosethings.
And yeah, if I, you know, if Iput my research grant consultant
hat on, it would be verydifficult to make a case, if you
don't have experience runningclinical trials, that this is
what you're going to do.
(18:57):
So that's, you know, that's oneside of things, but the other
side is that's not what you wantto do.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That's not where your research is headed, that's not
what you're interested in, andthat, to me, is far, far more
important.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, I actually told him I can do something I don't
believe Incredible.
I love it.
I mean, this is what I want forall of the graduates.
I think that's outstanding.
And he actually happy to hearthat.
(19:35):
He was happy to assume thatpushing back and saying no is
going to result in some sort ofnegative consequence or that
you'll upset somebody and itwill go very badly, and so for
that reason, we tend to avoidthose kinds of conversations or
just it.
You know it.
It sometimes feels easier justto say yes, yes, I'll do that,
(19:57):
because you don't want to havethat difficult conversation.
But, as you've discovered,those conversations can actually
be really positive.
And, as you pointed out, he sawgrowth in you and your own
leadership in you knowscientific leadership in where
you're going, and yeah, that's,you know that leadership in
(20:19):
where you're going, and yeah,that's you know that's a
positive outcome rather than anegative one, right?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think what a great example.
Thank you for sharing that.
So, haisha, is there somethingyou learned in the program that
you were not expecting to learn,or that maybe that you didn't
know that you needed to learn?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
that the inner mental thing was one I didn't know I
needed to learn, because I toldyou in a, I grew up in a way.
I see I seek this advice andyou know, and I followed their,
the authorities advice, and Ijust never had the habit of
doing the think about what Iwant.
(21:09):
So that's something I neverknow I need to do.
And after I learned this, Ifeel like, yeah, it makes
totally sense, because I'm theone running my lab, I'm the one
running my lab, I'm the oneresponsible for the ground I
need to write, you know.
So I had to develop that skilland habits.
And that's one thing.
(21:29):
And oh yeah, and another thingwhen we talk about setting
priority, we talk about stone,sand and water metaphor and to
determine the importance of yourday-to-day task.
(21:51):
I think that really helped me alot because sometimes, when I'm
not productive and also thosemost important tasks writing,
paper writing grant it's hard,and sometimes I sit there whole
day, couldn't come up with muchstuff I feel bad about myself.
So I will try to find somesmall task and fill my day and
(22:16):
do those things and then at theend of the day, you feel like
you accomplished, you feel likeyou're not unproductive.
You get false sense ofproductivity but at the end of
the day, that's not really whatyou need to spend your time and
energy to do.
So it's again getting theclarity of what's aligned my
North Star, what's what'saligned my north star, what's
(22:38):
what's important, and help meset the priority right now.
I can overcome even thoughtoday I haven't write much, but
I still need to set three hours.
Sit there right.
Instead of spending spendingthe three hours, do something
else.
That doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah yeah, I think that is so common Well, I know
that that is so common that weavoid the important but not
urgent work because it requiresa lot more of us emotionally,
cognitively, and so we push itaside as much as we can in favor
(23:19):
of doing the quick wins, the,the little sort of dopamine hits
of, you know, answering emailsand checking things off and and,
with exactly that result ofjust not feeling like we've
accomplished much of anything,because it's just these tiny,
little you know steps that we'vetaken versus the, the important
(23:40):
, meaningful work that we arenot doing because it feels too
hard.
But in the same way like wewere talking about earlier, in
the same way that we avoiddifficult conversations with
people because we think thatthey're going to go badly and we
are trying to avoid thosenegative feelings, we avoid the
negative feelings of I'm notgood at this, I don't know what
(24:01):
I'm doing, I don't know how toget started, in favor of the, of
the easier thing and that justwe sabotage ourselves because we
are avoiding.
We're avoiding emotionaldiscomfort.
But if we just can find a way,yeah, if we can just find a way
to move towards the emotionaldiscomfort just a little bit, I
(24:26):
mean, as you shared in thatbeautiful example, it usually
goes way better than we imagineit's going to.
And another, I will alwaysremember this One of our
graduates from a while agodescribed it in her mind, the
way that she got over.
This was saying nobody dies fromdiscomfort.
(24:47):
So just this idea of likenothing bad is going to happen
if I let myself feeluncomfortable.
And that's how she finally gotherself to sit down and do the
writing that she needed to doand she was like, yeah, sure
enough, I didn't die.
It didn't feel great, but Ididn't die, and so, and then
every time after that it got alittle bit easier because she
(25:08):
was kind of building that muscle.
And so, yeah, I think so muchof what we do is just avoiding
emotional discomfort and it'sjust very, it's very human of us
to to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I think that's so true.
Well summarized, well put.
I think that applied to so manyother area in life as well.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, it's true yeah, so what advice would you give
somebody who is consideringjoining k to r essentials about
how to make the most of theirtime in the program?
What would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
They are considering.
I think they need to first askthemselves what they want to get
out of this program.
If they want to learn how towrite grammar, this is not a
place for them.
If they are, someone like medon't have clarity on I don't
(26:10):
know how to basically be anindependent investigator, and so
it really is trying to lay somefoundation, increase the
awareness about what this careeris about and what it takes, and
there's some tools likestrategy and planning.
Those are the tools that we canuse to make it happen.
So I think this program from myown experience, it's great for
(26:33):
those people like similar to me,don't have a clear vision.
I know there are people thatare great, they're awesome, they
know what they want and theyknow how to get it.
They might still benefit fromthis program because there's
still a lot of practical toolsthey can use.
(26:55):
I think the people need it themost is the people like me that
just not knowing, not knowingwhere we want to go, and then
have some people pleasingtenders tendency, afraid of
saying no, um, you know thatthat that would benefit the most
(27:18):
from this program.
That's my experience.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Is there anything else you'd like to add before we
wrap up today?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I can't think of anything from the top of my head
, yeah, but I really appreciateyour program.
I think, yeah just in many wayshelped me improve the awareness
and clarity that I really seek,I really wanted, from the
(27:57):
program and those practicaltools.
Actually, to be honest, there'sa lot of things I haven't.
I go through the course.
I haven't really implementedthat yet.
I do the time tracking.
I haven't done that but luckilywe will have access to the
material.
I will be able to, on my ownpace, be able to implement those
(28:21):
things in the coming weeks, Ihope.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, thank you for your time today.
It was great to see you againand it was a joy to have you in
the program and to witness yourtransformation.
And I know I say this to uhthat comes on the show for an
interview, but I really do hopethat you stay in touch and let
(28:47):
me know about your successes andyour progress.
And, yeah, thank you for beinghere today thank you for your
program and the space you createfor us, step closer to a smooth
(29:16):
K-R transition.
Visit sarahdobsonco slash podand check out all the free stuff
we have to help you do justthat.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show to make sure you hear
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about it.
Tune in next time and thanksagain for listening.
(29:37):
Thank you.
If you aren't already on the wait list for the next
cohort of K-R Essentials, headto our website to sign up so
that you can be the first tohear all the details about the
program and to get yourquestions answered.
You can do that atsarahdobsonco slash k2r that's
S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O.
Slash K, number 2 R.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
(00:22):
Essentials graduate.
Today's episode is aconversation with a recent K-R
Essentials graduate.
These episodes are reallyspecial.
They're a little longer than atypical episode.
You'll hear from me and, ofcourse, you get to hear directly
from a former student abouttheir experience in the program.
The reason I love theseconversations so much, aside
from getting to chat with agraduate is because it's one
(00:51):
thing to hear me talk about theperspectives and tools that I
teach inside K-R Essentials, butit's another thing entirely to
hear someone who's applied thosetools and perspectives in their
own career and to hear whathappened when they did.
Here's our conversation,welcome.
So can you introduce yourselfand tell us your pronouns and a
bit about your research?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Hi, my name is Hai-Sha Zeng and I'm currently
an associate investigator workfor a place called Laurier
Institute for Brain Research,which is located in Tulsa,
oklahoma.
So I got my PhD from Japan andmoved to Oklahoma in 2019 as a
postdoc and then I was prettylucky to get promoted as
(01:34):
associate investigator likeassistant research assistant
professor level in just two anda half years and I wrote my K01
a year into my after.
After I got promoted, I I wrotemy K01 and got funded on my
first try, which I have to thankfor your what's that K award
(01:59):
formula yeah, it's the grantfunding formula.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's the K award class.
Yeah, yeah, I remember youmentioning that.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, it helped me a lot and my research is about.
I've been studying how viralinfection and immune activation
affect brain structure andfunction in the context of
depression, and so that's mywork and my case about bringing
this line of research to apopulation level using
(02:27):
longitudinal data and integrateall the genetic biomarker,
behavior neural imaging alltogether to really dive deeper
into whether this link betweenviral infection can lead to
brain change and increased riskfor depression and other mental
health and, if so, then usingall this data and statistical
(02:52):
method to see if we canunderstand some mechanistic
understanding in terms of theneurobiological pathways.
So my overarching researchprogram is about viral infection
, brain change and how thatincreased the risk of mental
health, particularly depression.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And can you tell me a little bit about what drew you
to that work in the first place?
What was it about that workthat was fascinating to you?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well.
So my background was clinicalpsychology and cognitive
neuroscience.
I was not intended to enter thefield called immunopsychiatry,
like bringing the immunologycomponent.
At the time I actually needed ajob and for my personal reason
(03:51):
I have to move to Tulsa, veryspecific, and there's only one
place I can work for.
So I bring my skill to this lab, immunopsychiatry.
The PI happy to hire me becauseI have the skill he needs and
he doesn't have.
So that worked out pretty well.
I published and then I usedthose publications as a stepping
(04:14):
stone to get my K.
So it's a little bit accidental, just by chance bump into this,
this field, um.
However, I think that's a um.
I was lucky that it worked out.
You know, I get to, I get tohave my k, but I don't think
(04:37):
it's the best strategy to.
You know, do things like thatyeah, I mean fair enough.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I I will say that I had, uh, I mean, similar
experiences, just wanting to, orneeding to to move to a new
place and and find work, and, Iwould say, allowing the work
that I was doing to open up newinterests and new possibilities
(05:05):
for things that I did genuinelyfind interesting but never would
have encountered had it notbeen for this sort of
serendipitous job.
And so, yeah, I agree, like Idon't know that it's a great
strategy necessarily, but Ithink it's important to.
Yeah, I think it's important tostay open to those opportunities
(05:28):
and let your curiosity take youto new places and let yourself
be sort of influenced by theenvironment that you're in.
I mean, yeah, like I said, I'vedefinitely had those
experiences myself, so I get it.
Yeah, I really do.
But yeah, I really do.
So, haisha, can you cast yourmind back to the fall of 2024
(05:55):
and remember what you wereexperiencing back then as you
were working on your K Award,and some of the challenges that
you were encountering that ledyou to seek out K to R
Essentials?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Challenges.
Okay, because I never write.
I have never written any grantBecause my PhD was from Japan.
I didn't even have the conceptthat I need to write a grant to
support myself, my career, myresearch and stuff.
So it's this thing that I'venever done before.
(06:34):
I have no idea how to do it.
I was desperately needed somebasic guideline.
It's very much like you wereforced to play a chess game and
people tell you all the rates ofwinning this game is really low
and then you don't even knowthe rule of the game.
(06:55):
That's terrifying, yeah, that'sterrifying.
So you know I try to writespecific aim.
And the mentor?
You know they try to besupportive and help, but they
don't know how to teach you orthey don't have.
You know they don't.
They might know you made amistake here or there.
They give you comments, but youknow I just keep revising,
(07:18):
revising and never get them tosay, yes, this is a great, to
that level of saying this is agreat aim, and they will give
you feedback, say, oh, nobodyever gets it right.
You just try your best, butthat's not good enough, because
now I know specific aim.
Actually, every single, everysingle sentence have its own
purpose.
(07:38):
There's a why to write, there'sa way you need to structure
every single sentence, everysingle paragraph, so so that
kind of comments or edits frommentor is not enough.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And so what was it that you were hoping to
accomplish inside of K to REssentials?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
K to R Essentials.
So after you get the K, thewhole point of K is get to next
R.
So it's not really aboutcompleting your K, it's about
how to transition into R.
And now that's a similarsituation as I described before.
This is a different task thanwriting the K and analyzing data
(08:27):
published in your paper.
This is now a brand newchallenge and I don't have skill
and training and I don't knowthe rule you know.
So I was at the same position.
I desperately need to know moreabout what is this all about
and how do I plan myself andprepare myself for that.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, and I think what's different in my view
about you know, securing a Kaward and then making that
transition from K to R, is thatit's not just about learning how
to write a new grant, it'sabout so many other things that
surround the getting of majorresearch project funding, and
(09:13):
it's about understanding thatyou need to kind of create your
own path and your own roadmap.
And so the rules some of thoserules that worked to get your
K-Word just don't apply anymore,and that in itself is
terrifying.
If you're accustomed tofiguring out what the rules are,
(09:34):
following the rules and justchecking those boxes, now you're
in a whole new world wherethere are no check boxes.
You have to kind of make yourown.
And yeah, I mean that to me iswhy the program exists is to
help everybody figure out whatthose checkboxes are for
themselves and create the typeof career that works for them.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
After I went through this K2 Archon essential cohort,
I'm still not comfortable.
I feel like there's so manythings I need to continue to
learn and digest and, you know,work on figure it out.
(10:19):
But at least I got some general.
I would say it pointed me inthe right direction, because no
course would be like a magicalgive you or get you ready for
your own transition.
Like you said, it's about yourown path.
You create your own map.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
So, yeah, there's a lot of things I still need to
figure out and, little by little, create that path for myself
exactly, yeah, and, and like wetalk about at the very in our
very first call, is the, thesort of stages of learning a new
skill.
There's learning, and thenthere's integrating, and then
(11:03):
there's mastering.
And what I tell everybody is Idon't expect you to master any
of these skills in four months.
That is too high a bar for anyof you to set for yourselves.
If you're coming in fresh with,you know, having never, never,
learned this skill before, to gofrom learning something new to
mastering it in four months isunrealistic, right.
(11:25):
But to recognize that it is askill that you could implement
and begin to integrate into yourlife, like that's the piece
that I really want to make surethat everybody has.
When we're talking aboutfoundational skills, right, if
you're learning something new,it's just understand what the
skill is and how it might beuseful to you and then, over
(11:46):
time, with practice, that's whenyou can move towards real
integration and, ultimately,mastery.
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah, so you're right ontrack.
So can you tell us somethingthat you did learn inside the
course that has helped you?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
um, I think I, I think every mod module, so we
got four different modules right, every module.
I learned a lot of again, a lotof clarity, because I was, I
was, I was, I wasn't sure aboutmy scientific program, the
vision vision, like where mynose start, using the language,
(12:31):
and so I think I get more clearon that than before.
That's helpful.
And the leadership part we talkabout in a mentor, that's the
piece that really really helpedme and I think it's very
important thing for me to learn,because I have always been
(12:55):
relying on people give me advice, like my mentor, my boss, my
director, I have.
I just grew up this way peoplekind of give me advice, tell me
what to do, and I just followed.
But we're at the position PI,you're running your own lab, and
some people are really good atthat because they grew up in a
(13:16):
way that you know, have theirown mind and they go after their
dream or whatever.
But for me I definitely neededthat part and you know, just
like when I talk about okay, youknow advice, just like the when
I talk about K, and you knowspecific and the comments and or
advice from other people.
(13:37):
It's from their standing point,based on their experience and
you are not them, you not beable to implement that in a way
they, they, you know implied andit may not work for you.
Um so, and different peoplewill give you completely
opposite advice sometimes.
(13:58):
Then how do you make thatdecision for yourself?
So you, you the best person toguide yourself to you and and I
learned that from that courseand I think it is super helpful-
and so can you say a little bitmore about how that has changed
, how you act in your career orthe decisions you make?
(14:33):
Yeah, so there's two pieces ofit.
Oh, I can give you an example.
The other day I had a meetingwith my director and my director
is also my primary mentor, my K, and he suggests oh, why don't
you use the electronic healthrecord data?
In these days, you know, toanswer some of your research
(14:55):
questions, I can give you highimpact paper because we have
this, that that you know In thepast.
I will be, I will jump in orthink, yes, we have a resource
to do that and that sounds likea great idea.
My boss and my mentor want meto do that.
I'm happy to do it.
(15:16):
However, after I get moreclarity on my vision, I would
notice my research program isnot about clinical trial
programs, not about clinicaltrial, and that you know.
He wanted me to study, so Istudied viral infection and
(15:37):
depression.
He's asked, he's basicallyasked question does the
depressed people have this viralinfection response differently
to certain treatment?
And that's not my hypothesisbehind my research program and
also, it's not a researchdirection I want to go.
(15:58):
I would never want to knowwhether it's just not a research
question that I care about andI would never run a clinical
trial to even test it out.
I don't see my R next grant,next project coming out from
that project if I undertake.
So.
I explained to him in a logicalway.
(16:21):
I told him this is not myhypothesis and I have my plan
one, two, three and stuff.
And he was very pleased.
The whole time he was smilingat me.
He was happy that I have my ownmind.
I know, you know, I'm kind ofthink things through these
things, not just jump right in.
(16:41):
And he's a good mentor.
He, I think he acknowledgedthere's some maturity in terms
of being a junior faculty to beable to say no to you know, he's
coming from a good intention.
He thought that could help me.
He thought that could help myresearch program.
(17:03):
But I explained to him that no,this is going to waste my time,
not not for my purpose yeah,yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think that is such a good illustration of what you
said before about how you, howyou interpret advice and
recommendations and feedbackfrom other people.
Right, because it's coming fromtheir own opinions and their
own perspectives and and that'sprobably what what he would have
done if he were in yourposition, because that is a
(17:33):
question that's interesting tohim.
But because, yeah, and becauseyou got really clear on your
vision and the types ofquestions that were interesting
to you, you were able toarticulate that to him and say,
look, no, this is not adirection that I want to move
into.
This is what my hypothesis is,this is where my program of
(17:55):
research is headed and I'm notgoing to let that distract me
and.
I, I mean I could not be happierto hear that that is exactly
what we want our students to see.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
On top of that, I also very clear about my own
skills.
So he's a clinician, he caresabout treatment, treatment
response and he runs tons ofclinical trials.
So for him that's a logicalnext step to do.
But for me I told him I haven'tbuilt up any clinical trial
experience, so this type ofresearch question will never be
(18:33):
the type of grant I will bewriting.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, and it's not only that you haven't built up
that type of experience, but youhave no desire to.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, yeah, right, so it's.
I mean, it's both of thosethings.
And yeah, if I, you know, if Iput my research grant consultant
hat on, it would be verydifficult to make a case, if you
don't have experience runningclinical trials, that this is
what you're going to do.
(18:57):
So that's, you know, that's oneside of things, but the other
side is that's not what you wantto do.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That's not where your research is headed, that's not
what you're interested in, andthat, to me, is far, far more
important.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, I actually told him I can do something I don't
believe Incredible.
I love it.
I mean, this is what I want forall of the graduates.
I think that's outstanding.
And he actually happy to hearthat.
(19:35):
He was happy to assume thatpushing back and saying no is
going to result in some sort ofnegative consequence or that
you'll upset somebody and itwill go very badly, and so for
that reason, we tend to avoidthose kinds of conversations or
just it.
You know it.
It sometimes feels easier justto say yes, yes, I'll do that,
(19:57):
because you don't want to havethat difficult conversation.
But, as you've discovered,those conversations can actually
be really positive.
And, as you pointed out, he sawgrowth in you and your own
leadership in you knowscientific leadership in where
you're going, and yeah, that's,you know that leadership in
(20:19):
where you're going, and yeah,that's you know that's a
positive outcome rather than anegative one, right?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think what a great example.
Thank you for sharing that.
So, haisha, is there somethingyou learned in the program that
you were not expecting to learn,or that maybe that you didn't
know that you needed to learn?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
that the inner mental thing was one I didn't know I
needed to learn, because I toldyou in a, I grew up in a way.
I see I seek this advice andyou know, and I followed their,
the authorities advice, and Ijust never had the habit of
doing the think about what Iwant.
(21:09):
So that's something I neverknow I need to do.
And after I learned this, Ifeel like, yeah, it makes
totally sense, because I'm theone running my lab, I'm the one
running my lab, I'm the oneresponsible for the ground I
need to write, you know.
So I had to develop that skilland habits.
And that's one thing.
(21:29):
And oh yeah, and another thingwhen we talk about setting
priority, we talk about stone,sand and water metaphor and to
determine the importance of yourday-to-day task.
(21:51):
I think that really helped me alot because sometimes, when I'm
not productive and also thosemost important tasks writing,
paper writing grant it's hard,and sometimes I sit there whole
day, couldn't come up with muchstuff I feel bad about myself.
So I will try to find somesmall task and fill my day and
(22:16):
do those things and then at theend of the day, you feel like
you accomplished, you feel likeyou're not unproductive.
You get false sense ofproductivity but at the end of
the day, that's not really whatyou need to spend your time and
energy to do.
So it's again getting theclarity of what's aligned my
North Star, what's what'saligned my north star, what's
(22:38):
what's important, and help meset the priority right now.
I can overcome even thoughtoday I haven't write much, but
I still need to set three hours.
Sit there right.
Instead of spending spendingthe three hours, do something
else.
That doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah yeah, I think that is so common Well, I know
that that is so common that weavoid the important but not
urgent work because it requiresa lot more of us emotionally,
cognitively, and so we push itaside as much as we can in favor
(23:19):
of doing the quick wins, the,the little sort of dopamine hits
of, you know, answering emailsand checking things off and and,
with exactly that result ofjust not feeling like we've
accomplished much of anything,because it's just these tiny,
little you know steps that we'vetaken versus the, the important
(23:40):
, meaningful work that we arenot doing because it feels too
hard.
But in the same way like wewere talking about earlier, in
the same way that we avoiddifficult conversations with
people because we think thatthey're going to go badly and we
are trying to avoid thosenegative feelings, we avoid the
negative feelings of I'm notgood at this, I don't know what
(24:01):
I'm doing, I don't know how toget started, in favor of the, of
the easier thing and that justwe sabotage ourselves because we
are avoiding.
We're avoiding emotionaldiscomfort.
But if we just can find a way,yeah, if we can just find a way
to move towards the emotionaldiscomfort just a little bit, I
(24:26):
mean, as you shared in thatbeautiful example, it usually
goes way better than we imagineit's going to.
And another, I will alwaysremember this One of our
graduates from a while agodescribed it in her mind, the
way that she got over.
This was saying nobody dies fromdiscomfort.
(24:47):
So just this idea of likenothing bad is going to happen
if I let myself feeluncomfortable.
And that's how she finally gotherself to sit down and do the
writing that she needed to doand she was like, yeah, sure
enough, I didn't die.
It didn't feel great, but Ididn't die, and so, and then
every time after that it got alittle bit easier because she
(25:08):
was kind of building that muscle.
And so, yeah, I think so muchof what we do is just avoiding
emotional discomfort and it'sjust very, it's very human of us
to to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I think that's so true.
Well summarized, well put.
I think that applied to so manyother area in life as well.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, it's true yeah, so what advice would you give
somebody who is consideringjoining k to r essentials about
how to make the most of theirtime in the program?
What would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
They are considering.
I think they need to first askthemselves what they want to get
out of this program.
If they want to learn how towrite grammar, this is not a
place for them.
If they are, someone like medon't have clarity on I don't
(26:10):
know how to basically be anindependent investigator, and so
it really is trying to lay somefoundation, increase the
awareness about what this careeris about and what it takes, and
there's some tools likestrategy and planning.
Those are the tools that we canuse to make it happen.
So I think this program from myown experience, it's great for
(26:33):
those people like similar to me,don't have a clear vision.
I know there are people thatare great, they're awesome, they
know what they want and theyknow how to get it.
They might still benefit fromthis program because there's
still a lot of practical toolsthey can use.
(26:55):
I think the people need it themost is the people like me that
just not knowing, not knowingwhere we want to go, and then
have some people pleasingtenders tendency, afraid of
saying no, um, you know thatthat that would benefit the most
(27:18):
from this program.
That's my experience.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Is there anything else you'd like to add before we
wrap up today?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I can't think of anything from the top of my head
, yeah, but I really appreciateyour program.
I think, yeah just in many wayshelped me improve the awareness
and clarity that I really seek,I really wanted, from the
(27:57):
program and those practicaltools.
Actually, to be honest, there'sa lot of things I haven't.
I go through the course.
I haven't really implementedthat yet.
I do the time tracking.
I haven't done that but luckilywe will have access to the
material.
I will be able to, on my ownpace, be able to implement those
(28:21):
things in the coming weeks, Ihope.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, thank you for your time today.
It was great to see you againand it was a joy to have you in
the program and to witness yourtransformation.
And I know I say this to uhthat comes on the show for an
interview, but I really do hopethat you stay in touch and let
(28:47):
me know about your successes andyour progress.
And, yeah, thank you for beinghere today thank you for your
program and the space you createfor us, step closer to a smooth
(29:16):
K-R transition.
Visit sarahdobsonco slash podand check out all the free stuff
we have to help you do justthat.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show to make sure you hear
new episodes as soon as they'rereleased, and if today's episode
made you think of a colleagueor a friend, please tell them
about it.
Tune in next time and thanksagain for listening.
(29:37):
Thank you.
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