April 9, 2024 • 47 mins
Let's kick things off with a bit of unexpected whimsy as Tsunami Jake sends us down a rabbit hole of prison reform, sports, and the colorful world of mascots. It's 'The Longest Yard' meets real life, and you won't want to miss the laughs and insights. But it's not all jest; we segue into the significant topic of plummeting birth rates, picking apart Ezra Klein's take and offering our own solutions from a previous episode that champions accelerated education and women's empowerment. And for those craving some cuteness overload, our live bunny cat cam promises fuzzy feels and spontaneous chuckles.
As we peel back the layers of society, we ask ourselves – could the concept of Zootopia be more than just an animated fantasy? We explore the potential of a society designed to satisfy the diverse needs of its citizens and discuss the phenomenon of "zookosis," where environments fail to cater to natural behaviors, drawing parallels with the human condition. We even ponder Pixar's 'Elemental' and its poignant commentary on community coexistence. This deep dive into the societal fabric is interspersed with musings on the American multicultural experience, proving that thought-provoking content and entertainment can coexist.
Wrapping up this dynamic episode, we ponder the ramifications of industrialization on our youth, society, and even the ethics of zoos, pulling wisdom from psychologist Jonathan Haidt. Can we align societal norms with human nature, referencing attachment theory and Dunbar's number? It's a rich conversation that ultimately lands us in the heartwarming realm of Stone Soup, a metaphor for community and cooperation. So, join us as we cook up a broth of ideas, laughter, and community spirit that'll leave you nourished in more ways than one.
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Comments? Feedback? Questions? Solutions? Message us! We will do a mailbag episode.
Email: solutionsfromthemultiverse@gmail.com
Adam: @ajbraus - braus@hey.com
Scot: @scotmaupin
adambraus.com (Link to Adam's projects and books)
The Perfect Show (Scot's solo podcast)
The Numey (inflation-free currency)
Thanks to Jonah Burns for the SFM music.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
so we were given a solution by uh someone on
discord what but I don't reallyI don't.
I'll just say what it is.
So.
So tsunami jake shout out totsunami jake on discord.
He said that maybe prisonsshould have mascots and colors
and sports prisons havingmascots, colors and sports.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, like like the longest yard.
The movie where they playedfootball, yeah there you go
right.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
So thank you to tsunami jake for that solution.
It's very cool.
I'd like I don't want todiscuss the whole thing, but
that's cool.
So people should send in theirsolutions and you'll get a shout
out, or just send in anything,and when you'll get a shout out
on the podcast also a little Iwas I was listening to Ezra
(00:57):
Klein on his podcast is doing atwo part episode on the birth
rate and like, yeah, the birthrate is too high or too little.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, you sent me a link to the, to one of those.
Yeah, and it's good.
And too high or too little?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
yeah, you sent me a link to the to one of those yeah
, and it's good, and and I justwanted to tell everyone, we
solved it.
They, they don't have asolution, but we already solved
it.
If you go back, uh, to episode,uh, episode 448, the title is a
woman's issue.
We're going to change the title, but basically the idea is like
what they talk about in in theepisode but then they get
(01:25):
totally wrong, is they say,every society that implements
higher education for women, thebirth rate plummets.
And then they don't come to theconclusion that we already came
to, or I came to, which is likewe just need to accelerate the
pace that we do education sothat everybody can get a
master's degree by the age oflike 21.
(01:47):
And if you did that, then women,the whole birth rate issue
would become a non-issue,because women would have the
freedom to have both a greateducation and start families in
their 20s or whatever, when theyare most sort of capable of
doing that.
So, anyways, they, for somereason uh, I think it's because
these, they they're just, youknow, ezra Klein and his guests
are just like way overeducated,and so they can't think about
(02:11):
like changing education to bebetter, like shorter, anyways.
So we have a solution to thattoo.
So there you go.
There's two solutions in thewild, two in the wild, nice
kickoff yeah, how are you doing,scott?
(02:32):
I see this bunny cat cam you'vejust added to the screen I'm
learning to put graphics andthings on is that the actual?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
cat live.
Yeah, it's right here if Ireach over.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
He wasn't moving at all, he was, so still no, he's
sleeping, but let's see if I canoh, you're a cutie kitty, yeah
that's a live camera.
It's a great, the great cat cam, and it's got such a nice
little graphic around it yellowframe.
It's hilarious.
Well, that's great, that'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
We're trying to do one with minimal edits, because
we're going to put it out thesame day.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We record it, we don't normally do this, we just
do no edits.
What do we call that?
No fill Hashtag.
No edits.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Hashtag it's all in the can.
We're all hanging out everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Everything that goes in comes out the other end.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
All right.
Well, this is not our usual.
I say no edits and then I wouldgo and cough off the side.
No edits.
Okay, Let me chew into themicrophone.
What are all those?
Wait, let's just do another.
Take here the cardinal sins ofbroadcasting.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Are those given?
What are they?
What are those?
What are the cardinal sins ofbroadcasting?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Eating on mic, chewing into the mic, yeah,
coughing.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We do all these things Right All the things that
make us oh God, we're bad, thatmake us great.
Well, I've got a solution.
Should I just go straight in?
Should we go straight into thesolution?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Let Should I just go straight in?
Should we go straight into thesolution?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Let's go straight in, since there's no edits.
We got no edits, we got to doit Okay.
So today I'm proposing Zootopia.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No, I think that's already.
I've already.
I saw that actually years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So it's a it's a movie idea that no one's ever
come up with before.
It's about a rabbit, but that'swhat I'm saying rabbit turn,
decide no hold on one second therabbit decides to become a
police officer actually nofirefighter and then she decides
she's gonna move from thelittle bumpkin country village
she lives in with the rabbitfarmers who are farming celery
not carrots, but celery and thenshe decides to go to the big
(04:38):
city where she becomes afirefighter.
All right, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
now just stick with me here.
This might sound crazy.
What would you think if Isuggested the names of jennifer
goodwin and jason?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
bateman good choices those be uh well, well, well,
choices for your idea.
I I think that would be wouldbe good.
I think jason would be a goodchoice.
There's not a good.
That was my jason, justinbateman oh, that's the jason
bateman.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think I have one.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I don't know, I don't know enough.
He just goes up real high.
The more awkward the situation,the higher, and then he puts
pauses where they don't belong.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
See everybody.
This is a perfect thing that Inormally would maybe not make it
all the way to the end.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, this would not get in, dang it.
Okay, let's talk about Zootopia.
So what I'm?
Yeah, zootopia is in my, so itis kind of from the movie.
But I think it's the deepermeaning of the movie, which is a
longing that we have in apost-capitalist industrial
society to live in a societywhere we can enjoy the benefits
(05:46):
of technology and trade andscience and commerce, but also
are not alienated from our ownnatures.
Okay, and I call that conceptzootopia, and I think that's
what the movie illustrates right.
So they go in and they havethis whole city, they have all
the benefits of technology, buteverything's perfectly aligned
(06:08):
for each animal's nature.
You know, so the right food.
You know the bunnies are eatingcarrots and the camels are
eating whatever.
And the you know the everyone'sat the doors are the right size
, the houses are there.
Everything's aligned perfectly.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So everyone's nature is catered to in our society.
We don't do that.
You've got the mass transitwith all the different sizes of
doors for the different sizes ofcreatures.
I'm sure you enjoy that and itwas multimodal.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
There was cars too.
There was different sized carsand different roads for
different sized cars, and right,it was all multimodal.
There was also trains and bikesand stuff too.
It it was great.
It was a great city.
So I propose that Zootopiabecome a primary guiding
ideology for policy andgovernment and commerce and
(06:58):
everything Perfect that weshould adopt Zootopia, okay and
the alternative is oh, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Oh, I was going to say step one.
We got to get rid of all thehumans because I've seen the
movie no humans.
Step two we've got to you know,Planet of the Apes, all the
different species of animals,and make them all talk and walk
Up, evolve them a little bit.
I'm on board, we can do this.
(07:26):
I know a guy, Dr Moreau.
He has an island we can usewhere he's been really working
on this sort of things.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sign me up, I'm in it , I'm in.
So the problem when you don'thave Zootopia, you have zookosis
.
Have you heard that term?
No, zookosis.
I think that's a lot, and notjust I think this, but lots of
people believe that we'resuffering from zookosis.
Is that a real word?
(07:50):
Yeah, it's a real word.
What it means is the animals,the disease, the sort of
syndrome of symptoms thatanimals get when they're in zoos
and they're not in anenvironment that matches their
nature, that's in accord withtheir nature.
They get zucosis.
It's like the.
You know, when you add kosisonto something, it's like a
(08:11):
disease well, yeah, is that likejust called?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
is that like mixing zoo and psychosis?
Yeah, exactly, exactly zootopiais just zoo plus utopia, which
is the perfect city, right andso sure?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
or just topia means place, so zootopia means a place
of life.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You don't think they were going for utopia like the,
the perfect city they were.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
They were going yeah, you maybe yeah zootope utopia
is right there in the word, butit also is just zootopia.
Zone is life and then topos isplace so you could yeah, it
could be, but I think you'reprobably right.
It is kind of a utopic,although it's not totally utopic
.
They have like police and crimeand you know so it's still a
(08:54):
whole conspiracy.
It's not like it's not likeeverything's perfect, you know,
sure, yeah but that's what theywant it to be.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's what they're shooting for.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I mean, they have it pretty well dialed in, yeah,
pretty good.
I mean they've got it prettygood, but I mean we also have
things pretty good.
I mean, look at holland.
Holland is already basically ahuman utopia.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
There's virtually nothing wrong with it so pixar
did it, one that's kind ofsimilar.
Or recently, have you seenelemental, where the not yet
fire people have?
To live with the water peopleand the air, people and the
earth people.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
You know, yeah, is it the same thing where they?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
it's similar where it's a society, supposedly,
where all four things aresupposed to coexist and travel
around together, and and thatcauses friction and tensions.
It's not.
It's not, excuse me no edits noI gotta edit those out, okay.
Okay, we'll edit the top soit's not meant to be a utopia.
(09:56):
That's why they call itelemental.
It's just meant to be like abunch of things smushed together
.
I don't know I some peoplereally hated it.
I I uh, some people didn't likeit very much.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I did, I enjoyed myself quite a bit, but I
definitely will watch it.
I need to watch that onebecause I do like pixar, even if
sometimes they miss.
I think they missed with luca,although my life, my wife loves
luca, so I don't know.
It's great.
Yeah, it's great.
You like luca, okay?
I do but yeah, I mean, I guessin some ways it's all just like
metaphors for a multiracialdemocracy which, you know, we're
(10:26):
very early on in America tohave a multiracial democracy.
It's only been like 70 yearssince, or not even 60 years
since, civil rights.
So I mean, we're only twogenerations or two and a half
generations into a multiracialdemocracy.
We're still trying to figureout how to do it.
Yeah but there's a bigger issue, though, which is zookosis, I
(10:48):
think, or and I mean not maybe-so tell me more about zookosis.
So zookosis is like you know.
Have you ever gone?
You ever seen like in sea world, like the, the killer whales,
uh uh fin.
On the top dorsal fin flumpsover.
That's like part of zookosis.
It's like a sign that theanimal has been living in
captivity they can't figure out.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I've heard that they can't figure out like yeah, how
there's no, there's no physical,physiological reason why it's
happening, other than just theydon't they're not swimming they
lost their mojo, right yeahthey're not like swimming in the
open ocean.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
and there's some, there's some.
And then, you know, for humanbeings you see it in animals,
tigers who are kept in too smallof a cage will just pace back
and forth.
That's a sign of them being inlike pretty extreme mental
distress from being just likelocked up when they're supposed
to be ranging across you knowhundreds of acres of of land and
hunting and stuff.
They get zookosis and humanbeings might be suffering from
(11:47):
zookosis as well, because we arewild animals that sort of
domesticated ourselves, like 400years ago or 400 years ago,
400,000 years ago, we sort ofdomesticated each other in a
wild context.
So we're still a wild animal.
(12:17):
That was that, that selfdomesticated, Right, a wild
animal, just the human beings.
We're kind of putting humansinto these sort of zoos and the
question is, are we buildingzoos, zootopias, or are we
building sort of zookosis wards,you know, like these sort of
zookosis environments?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, well, I mean, we are primates, we are, you
know, a member of the apesfamily.
You know, like that there issomething very primal and you
can see that sometimes, when orfeel that, when, like you have
rage surge up or you feel strongemotions of like, uh, love or
happiness or any of the strongemotions don't think I get to
(12:57):
pretty much any other time andthat feels very tied to like DNA
(13:18):
and primal stuff and it doesn'tfeel like it's something that
sitting and typing on thekeyboard or walking around in
clothes and driving cars, itdoesn't come anywhere close to
touching.
I think there are parts of whatwe've engineered as a human
society that very much cut offthings from our just natural
(13:39):
animal self and I do think thataffects us in some ways.
I bet yeah, you know, there'snot a lot of.
When you get the ability tokind of consider existence and
your own existence and like zoomout and think about meta things
, that comes with a lot of likeanxiety and different issues
(14:00):
that are going to come alongthat, like, my cat is not
dealing with because my cat isnot pondering those, those
issues yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I totally agree.
I think there's, there's somewe see glimpses of it right of
like our nature, of feeling moreat ease and feeling more in our
, in, you know our, environment.
I forget, I forget whereexactly, but I was, I was, I was
learning about um, some it'sgonna sound trite, but some
(14:32):
tribe in africa, right, that wasun unindustrialized and and un
technological, technological,but they had interactions with
um, you know, uh, moreindustrialized africans from
travelers from other parts ofthe world, and one of their
impressions was when they wereasked would you ever like to go
to, like New York, would youever like to go to, you know, to
(14:55):
like an industrialized place?
One of their interesting thingsthey would say this one tribe
would say was they'd say no, I'dnever want to go there.
That's where people jump off ofbuildings to kill themselves,
and that's the crazy, like.
That was like the craziestthing they could possibly
imagine, and that anyone woulddo that to them was a sign that
the whole society was just likesick, beyond um, beyond
(15:19):
recognition.
You know something they wouldwant to be a part of.
You know, sure, yeah, um, now,granted, that's I mean.
I'm sure there's a lot of otherconcerns and they're just
anchoring on something.
But the fact that they anchoron something that I think even
we would say is reallydistressing, which is like a
suicide rate which you know ispretty consistent across
(15:39):
industrialized countries.
Country suicide rates are likefour and four and a thousand, or
four and a thousand or four andten thousand people commit
suicide is very consistent, evenif society is different.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Uh, it's very consistent I mean, they may not
like the idea of possiblyjumping off of buildings, but
have they tried candy crush,because maybe that would change
their mind.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
That's true.
Or driving like 100 miles anhour on a highway.
Yeah, with the windows down.
Well, maybe not the windowsdown going 100, but radio on.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Maybe riding in an AI thing that's driving for them.
I feel like going from anon-car lifestyle to driving
that's a pretty big ask.
I don't think.
If you don't grow up in a carculture, I feel like the idea of
having to drive somewhere seemsmore like why would you do that
to me?
Have someone else do that forme?
(16:37):
Why do I have to make decisionsat 100 miles an hour in the
midst of doing this?
That makes no sense at 100miles an hour in the midst of
doing this.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That makes no sense, right?
So we could build a societythat was a Zootopia.
So it's just an interestingproposal.
I think it's different fromother proposals for better
societies, right?
So people would say let's makesociety more just, right, like
more fair, you know, moreegalitarian, like that's one,
(17:07):
that's one like intent, you knowone kind of guiding principle
for how to make society better.
Um, another another that'smaybe a more kind of progressive
sort of left-wing one, uh,another.
Another one might be like amore of a right-wing one, like
let's more fully live up to theideals of tradition, um, and,
(17:30):
and, and, and that's that's goodsociety, right, a society that
more fully lives up to thesesort of virtue, virtuous
traditions, which seems to bekind of a conservative right.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It feels like one side is sort of like let's clamp
down on people and that willsort of create the shape of
society we want, and the otherside's like kind of let's let
loose on people and that willproduce the shape of the society
we want yeah, and that's that'slike from the the first stage
of like, what do you do topeople?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
but the other one's the outcomes right.
So one want one in egalitariansociety, wants that outcome
where where, whatever you do, itleads to greater, greater
equality, fairness and equalityand justice across not just race
and gender and stuff, but alsoeconomic stuff.
And then the other one says,well, let's not worry maybe so
much about the only outcome.
(18:20):
We really want is that we getto these sort of ideals of
tradition strong men, beautifulwomen, you know, healthy
children, you know these are thetraditional sort of things.
We need to hit these.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
We need to hit these sort of aesthetic those weird
traditional people with theirdesires for healthy children.
Yeah, not like us modern smartpeople.
We are like we don't care ifour children are healthy or not.
We're just indifferent to thatwhole right, right you know.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Well, I mean, to some extent, is you know it's more
about the equality, right, ifyou, or healthy or not, we're
just indifferent to that wholeidea, right, right, you know
Well, I mean, to some extentit's more about the equality
right if you think about it.
But anyways, this is sort ofproposing another alternative to
either of those right.
Okay, so if, instead of sayingwell, we want greater equality
and justice or we want greatersort of living up to these sort
of traditional ideals, if yousay no, we just want a society
(19:07):
that lives up to our nature andeliminates zookosis from
humanity.
And signs of zookosis would belike malaise, uh, mental illness
, uh, drug addiction, um, um,you know, low satisfaction rates
with work, low satisfactionrates, you know, uh, high levels
(19:30):
of neuroticism, high levels ofanxiety.
Honestly, I think I would justsay I think women are more
susceptible to zookosis than men, I think maybe because of the
patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
No, it's because men have those big, strong muscles.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So we're too, strong the zookosis yeah, we just punch
zookosis when it gets to us.
You're the Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You put them in like a clamp lock, a double leg clamp
lock.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Take that.
Well, I was going to saybecause of patriarchy.
Men have basically builtsociety and I think we've built
it wrong even for men.
But we made it made it evenworse, I think, for women than
for men.
Um, just because, like, forexample, if we've made a society
that's kind of lonely, which Ithink is universally believed,
if we built a society that'skind of lonely, women are more
(20:23):
social than men, so theloneliness is even worse for
them, right, right.
And if we've built a societythat's sort of disjointed
socially, by kind of havingpeople move away from their
nuclear families and havingpeople, you know, moving all
over the country and world allthe time and kind of totally
disjointed, you know, for menwe're, you know, evolutionarily,
we would have been able, wewould have like wandered off
(20:45):
from the tribe and like joinedother tribes, whereas women
would have like been kind ofcloser into their tribe, you
know their band.
That's just.
I think that's a well-knownthing about human beings, you
know.
Just like you see with chimpschimps, the males just wander
off and spend time separate fromany band and then join other
bands, whereas the women chimpsstay more close into the band
(21:07):
that they're in.
So our society that letseverybody move, the men.
That kind of is an analog tolike, maybe, a male experience,
or you know, the average male,maybe you know, it's just all
statements of trends, right,women can have all kinds of
lives and desires and things,but I'm just saying it's a
statement of a trend maybe evenin guerrilla cultures, like guys
through go through this, um,this phase of just being like
(21:30):
insufferable and terrible, andthey're just like they wanted to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
They're like you know what?
I have some ideas for, uh, fora, for a jungle startup that we
could like.
Actually, if you want to hear,if you want to hear my new ideas
for how we can really climbthese trees, what, what look, if
you climb a tree 1% moreefficiently every day, then by
the end of the year you're likeyou need to go and walk around
(21:54):
another.
Get out of here, please leaveLike just male apes, get to a
certain age and they're justlike okay you need some time.
Like you might go find someother people who aren't already
tired of you and didn't see yougrow up, and maybe they'll find
you interesting, but not here myguy Not here.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
We've seen where all this has come from.
It's boring, it's tiresome.
Please get out of here.
I think that probably is whatwas it Two?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
years ago you were taking your poop and throwing it
against that thing over there.
Yeah, Don't try and convince us.
You're some sort of supergenius now.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I guess it is right that's a young, young males.
They probably get sort ofannoying, they get a little
aggressive, they get a littlebit like kind of sticking their
fingers that they don't belongcertainly get the hell out of
here you know, and then theykind of wander off and it serves
an evolutionary purpose, right?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
because it serves this sort of widespread right
and yeah, sort of spread, we arethe Right and yeah, sort of
spreads the genes, right, we arethe dandelion, the floating
dandelion, things trying to finda new spot Right, and so we're
more comfortable with a littlebit more loneliness.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
We're a little more comfortable.
I think it's even too lonelyfor men, I think you know it's
just too much.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I want to make it clear I don't think there are
necessarily these differencesbetween men and women.
I'm just playing into the jokeof it, but yeah, you don't think
there's a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You don't think women are more social.
Look at how they.
Look at how they behave.
How could it not?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I don't know.
I think they seem more social.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Some of it is like that's not a that's not a diss.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I actually think it's probably better to be more
social than to be like more of aloner my, my brain is thinking
like is it that they it thatwomen are naturally more social,
or because of the patriarchysociety we've set up?
They have to become more social.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
But chimps behave.
That way is the thing.
It makes me think we're likechimps, even baboons the same
thing.
Baboons, chimps, all of them.
The men will wander off and thewomen will stay closer.
But don't chimps also eat otherchimps?
Yeah, so do baboon.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So I mean so not everything we've stopped the
eating what if zookosisscientists find out that
zookosis is caused by us notfully experiencing like the
eating?
Cannibalism yeah right, likethey're like you need to be like
full animals, which meanseating other.
(24:12):
Like you need to fight eachother in the streets and then
eat each other so there's also.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It turns out there's a game, there's a video game
called zookosis that lookshorrifying.
It's like a horror game whereanimals are being killed by like
an alien monster and you haveto like kill the alien monster.
This is not what I mean byzookosis, no people shouldn't go
by the the video game.
Video game, no version of it sothe idea of zookosis in humans
(24:40):
is a mental health theory.
That is I don't know how well,how well documented I I can look
it up on Google Scholar quick.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Remember you got to go quick, no edits.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So if I say zookosis humans, then you can see there's
a few.
Yeah, this is not a lot ofcitations.
This is very much like awackadoo.
I'm talking about a wackadoothing here, just so you know so
just so I understand thepractical version of how we
would.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You're like we got to get to a Zootopia, but what are
the steps to?
Where do you start?
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I guess I'm more just proposing what do you
think?
What if people thought about itthat way instead of saying
egalitarianism or socialism orcapitalism or conservatism, and
instead they were like Zootopia?
Let's try to make a societythat is in a line as closely as
(25:39):
possible with our natures.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
But then it becomes a question of what is our?
That's a question.
What's our nature?
That's a question that they'vebeen trying to answer forever,
right?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And I think you're right, and I think part of it,
the dangerous part would be totry to define positively Our
nature is this way, thereforeconstrain people to that.
I think that's not good, right.
I think the better idea wouldbe to say what is it not in our
nature to do and try to avoidbad things, rather than try to
constrain people to a certainsort of mold.
(26:11):
Right, but it's the samequestion what is our nature?
It's just the response ofwhether do we eliminate things
that are not in our nature or dowe constrain people to a sort
of positive impression of whatour nature is.
The second one is bad, isdangerous because of people,
especially humans.
There's a lot of humans who arejust wacky and they go way
outside, drive way outside thelines, and I think that's fine
(26:32):
and good for them to do, youknow, as long as they don't like
hurt other people.
But there's a lot of things inour society that are just
against our nature and we justpersist, we just keep them, and
they're clearly like causingpeople well, I was gonna say the
first one, where you just starteliminating things you see as
problems.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I feel like, isn't that, isn't that how we got to
here?
Like, isn't that?
Yeah right, like you would justbe out of food.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Let's make agriculture.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
It's a problem to steal things, so let's make
stealing illegal.
It's a problem to kill people.
Let's make killing, let'soutlaw these things so that we
can build our society to thenext level of.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Maybe one theory that would help us is this guy named
Ivan Illich, who is a sort ofsocial theorist, who was
Austrian but he worked in Mexicoin the 60s.
Actually my dad met him a fewtimes when he was down there.
But he's a well-known socialtheorist guy.
He's kind of like a little bitof a marxian, but he's not
(27:30):
explicitly like marxist, andanyways he wrote he had this
whole theory that he called uh,he called conviviality or or
hyper industrialization thoseare those are opposites.
So hyper industrialization iswhen you industrialize too far
and you start to eliminate whathe called conviviality, which is
kind of what I'm describing asutopia, but I'm using a more of
(27:53):
like a biological framework forit and he's using more of a kind
of I don't know common sense.
He's just saying what'sconvivial, what is a nice way
for humans to live?
I'm saying no, let's look atthe actual biology of human
nature and then use that as amodel for Zootopia, whereas he
(28:13):
was just saying let's be Anyway.
So Ivanilich describes thisidea of hyper-industrialization.
I think we can use that as amodel for what's going on in our
society.
We've, we've, we've.
Industrialization was good.
Like you said, solve theseproblems, let's solve this
problem, solve that problem isall this problem.
But then what it led to is liketoo much and we started to get
(28:35):
diminishing returns and then weeven started to get inverted
negative returns because wesurpassed.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
They're like oh, pumping all this coal dust into
the air makes everyone's healthgo way down.
Pumping all this carbon dioxideinto the atmosphere makes the
global warming go way up.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
The seeking for profits over all other goods has
caused mental illness andcaused all kinds of anxieties
and depressions.
Yeah, exactly, Separated motherfrom child.
At this point we're in aposition where most
technologically advancedchildren, at least in America,
(29:17):
don't have a childhood.
That doesn't seem like a goodidea.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like they just are exposed right away to don't have
a childhood.
That doesn't seem like a goodidea.
You know, Like they just areexposed right away to.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
They just immediately are put on phones and they just
spend hours every day onscreens and they don't go
outside.
They don't play and when theydo play, it's completely
observed by their parents andmoderated by their parents,
which is not play.
We all know that when adultswere around, we didn't really
play and then, when adults weregone, we actually did some like
(29:47):
serious play you know, we likeactually we could do some fun
stuff.
Um, so like, basically and thisis not me saying this this is
jonathan height.
One of the leadingpsychologists today, is going on
tv right now.
He's selling his whole booksomething anxiety generation
where he talks all about this.
And he I just saw him on he'sin, he's on the New York times,
(30:09):
he's on Joe Rogan, he's oneverything saying this and I
don't think he's wrong.
I think he's wrong about otherthings, about his psychology
stuff that he does, but he's notwrong about this.
He's really saying like this isa big problem.
Children saying like this is abig problem.
Children are not having achildhood anymore.
That's the opposite of zootopia, that's the opposite of
conviviality.
Yeah, that's gonna, there'sgonna be some.
That's not good yeah, I don'tknow I mean I.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
We have a generation of people that grew up with a
certain set of issues, but Ithink there's another.
Not not being able to go outand really experience the world
until you're a certain age isgonna cause a whole nother set
of issues with people who arejust, like you know, like
letting, letting people lose.
Some people will handle it,some people.
(30:52):
It's just going to be way toomuch like all at once.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It's, I guess, not good the trade anyways, it's
just all these things that we Ihear I'm kind of synthesizing
all of this into this.
Maybe we're doing a theoriesfrom the multiverse today, kind
of synthesizing everything intothis term, this idea of Zootopia
.
And then it's opposite Zookosis.
So when you don't have Zookopia, you'll see increases in
(31:17):
Zookosis, which will be anxiety,depression, low level, low
level mental illness will go up.
And we've talked about thisbefore with the attachment issue
, right.
So if we, if we force women andmen to go to work right after
they've had a kid and they don'twe don't give them the first,
you know, year to three years ofa child's life to form proper
(31:39):
attachments, um, then, and if wereckon yeah, reckon, yeah, then
, then then we'll have, we'llhave major zookosis.
It's just like if you said, hey, we, we have the baby, we have
the baby seal is born, and thenwe keep the mother seal in a
different cage from the babyseal, it's like, well, you're
(31:59):
gonna, meant, you're gonna harmthe baby seal that way, like
it's so obvious, like the motherright need to stay together and
the dad should probably bethere too, unless, like I don't
know, dad seals like eat thebabies or something like I don't
know what the nature of sealsare.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
But in the nature of humans, like you know, everybody
should be like around the baby,forming connections and bonds
right, or they should be allowedto form whatever connections
and bonds that they would do inthe wild.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Right like right, there are some, I think, polar
bears, it's like the dads youhave to be out of the picture,
but, like dads, just need to go,yeah, but some, some species.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
They're like yeah, we do this as a group, and some
people, some species, do it notjust as like a, a parent child
group, but as like a group ofparents and a group of children.
You know, it's like.
I think we, when we pull people,zoos are.
Zoos are this whole thing whereit's like it's good to be able
to see animals up close and kindof get the safe kind of a safe
(32:56):
experience, that close to a realanimal.
But it's also terrible toremove an animal from its
natural spot just so we can likeGoogle at it and point at it
and take pictures, so it's.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, I'm going to the San Diego Zoo next weekend.
Great, so we'll see.
I'll report back what animals Ithought had zookosis and what
animals didn't.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I didn't.
I mean, I feel very conflictedabout American zoos anyway, but
going to zoos in Japan I waslike, oh, american zoos actually
take a lot more care for itthan some places in the world
where they're just like no,these are animals.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
They're animals, put them on display.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There was like a rhino.
There was like a rhino.
So in Asahikawa, which is inHokkaido, is one of the most
famous zoos in Japan and I wentto the zoo there and they have
like a rhino just standing onlike a small concrete pillar,
basically like rhino-sizedpillar, and they're like, look,
(33:58):
there's a rhino.
And you're like, yeah, ofcourse there's the rhino, it
can't go anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
It just has to kind rhino.
And you're like, yeah, ofcourse there's the rhino.
It can't go anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
It like it just has to, kind of like you're saying
pace back and forth and that'sall I can do, but it's uh like
on a plinth.
Yeah right, american zoos havebeen better than that, but still
, you know, now we're in the ageof high, high, uh high frame
rate, 4k, you know, 8k film anddocumentarians who can go out
and get it.
So I'm like almost at the pointwhere I'm like I don't know, I
(34:28):
think I'm good just seeing it onon screens and stuff or make
the zoos like you know, like thesan diego zoo.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I've never been to san diego zoo but I've heard
it's like an experience, like asafari.
The animals are like in a hugeenvironment.
That that is.
You know.
They're not going to beexperiencing zookosis and I
think they do it the best.
Yeah, and and, but you couldjust say the laws are, you have
to meet that standard, and thenthe zoos would just have fewer
animals, right?
I mean, that's the only thingthe zoo could still operate.
(34:55):
It just has to have feweranimals give them more space you
know yeah yeah, but that, yeah,it's just.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's probably low on the list of people's priorities
because they're like we gottawell, I'd like the human zoo to
be better first.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, I'd like the human zoo to be better.
That's what that is.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
If you're like, hey, we need to take care of.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
They're like we got people problems we need to take
care of yeah, you could alwaysdivert someone to somewhere else
although the japanese could doit, they don't have as many
people.
I mean, they have peopleproblems, but like there are a
bunch of people problems there,yeah, but they definitely are.
I think they are havingzookosis.
This this also comes back towhat we said, what I was talking
about a little bit at thebeginning, which is the birth
(35:35):
rate thing.
You know, in some ways nothaving babies.
That's what animals do whenthey have zookosis, right, when
animals are like, oh, they're inthe wild, they would have this
many children, but we can't getthem to breed in captivity.
We don't know why.
It's like that's zookosis, right?
That's a sign that you've taken.
You've put them in anenvironment that's not natural,
(35:57):
that's not fitting with theirnature.
And one of those signs ofzookosis is no reproduction,
whether it's not having sex ornot being fertile or or whatever
it is.
And if you look at Korea, theyhyper-industrialized very
rapidly.
If you go to Korea, it is gray,it is like cement everywhere
and it is like a gray.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I'm sure there's some neon and yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Neon.
Oh great yes.
But they hyper-industrialized,and now their birth rate's 0.7.
0.7?
That's 2.2 is just steady state, right?
Because the 0.2 counts forpeople who die.
And then 2 is replacement.
So 2.2 is replacement, 0.7 isless than 50 percent replacement
(36:44):
, which means that in onegeneration their population will
get done by half more than half.
Wow, so right now there's 50million koreans.
If they keep this up for for 40years, they'll only be 25
korean.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
25 million koreans, so half as many koreans it's
going to be twice as easy to getinto a Korean girl band or boy
band.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
You're looking at the upside.
Oh my goodness, there's somemajor upsides Right now.
The competition to get into oneof those is just incredible.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
But you're telling me that in a mere 50, just
naturally, I'm going to have atwice.
My shots are going to double.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I like I like you'll be old but, I'll be the.
No, I'll be.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'll be the old member.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Like you know how they all every member of the
group has a thing like there'sthe bad boy.
And there's, I'll be the likesuper old guy that's always what
people are looking for in boybands, yeah for for my verse in
the song.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I'll just be like hello.
I remember when there'll belike a really weird group of
fans that are just like that,are super into you, way into me
they're really into you, but youknow about scott.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Oh yeah, scott, he's great.
I like him it really went outon a limb to get Scott in there,
but I think they did a goodchoice.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I think he's really great.
You've done a bad job.
Now you have me all the way offof your idea, because now I
want yes.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Well, I mean, all this birth rate stuff is kind of
interesting because it's like,well, people can do whatever
they want.
If women want to have fewerchildren, it's up to them.
You can kind of see it as likea personal choice thing.
But then you look at it andyou're like but this is clearly
a sign that things have gone offthe rail.
This is a sign that something'sbad, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
but the statement if women want to have more children
, that's up to them and thenbeing like, well, maybe that's
not so you could see anyalternative to that is if women
want to have, if women don'twant to have children, that's
not up to them and that feelslike no part of that is no, it
is no, it is exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, that's the danger.
The danger is right-wing powerswho are not faint of heart
about reducing people's rights.
They can come in and say well,I've got an explanation, I've
got a solution, we'll just liketake these women and have them
not go to school anymore.
Look at that.
All of a sudden, we got moms inthe kitchen.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
You know exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So what I'm trying to propose is, I think if we, as
utopian approach, could be aleft wing or a not even
left-wing, just a sort of notfascist, not gender patriarchal
approach to, to to solving,among other things, I mean, I
think it would solve lots ofthings.
All.
I think a lot of these issuesthat we're facing in the
(39:34):
developed countries are zookosis.
I think that that's a that's akind of fringe idea, but I
wonder if it shouldn't be sofringe, but I, I guess I don't
understand that.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
If you're trying to say, hey, everyone be more
zootopian, or what?
Yeah, let's make everyonefollow your nature.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, let's use zootopian policies.
So, for instance, attachmentscientists will tell you that,
with evidence and proof, thathuman beings form attachments in
the first years of life andthat those attachments are
deeply, deeply important for thewell-functioning of our psyche
for the rest of our lives.
Sure, sure that's not like,that's not like a religion that
(40:15):
some guy made up a thousandyears ago.
That's science.
We figured out the last 50years and so that'd be zootopian
.
Okay, let's make a raft ofpolicies that support human
attachment boom, and it wouldprobably be the obvious things
parental leave, and.
But there's other things abouthuman, human nature, like, like
(40:36):
these questions about lonelinessand and community.
You know which?
We'd have to find the actualscience to really show it.
There is that, that number youtalked about it to me the other
day the, the 150 dunbar's number?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
yeah, dunbar's number tell.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Do you want to tell people because you just had in a
brunch a brush with dunbarhimself or something right,
didn't you?
I was editing?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
yeah, I was editing a podcast that he was a guest on,
so I heard a long interview ofhis and.
Dunbar's number is he's talkingabout.
Like historically, there's anumber of people that you can
kind of group and have a strongconnection with.
Or you know, you're not goingto have strong connections with
thousands and thousands ofpeople, like just across time
(41:21):
and across cultures.
It seems to be about 150.
They were saying 150 is likethe number of human connections
before you really just can'tmanage it anymore.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So so there you go so that's, there's science behind
that, so that's some kind ofstarts to in sit in, propose
this idea that we need to havelike support for human
communities, human connection,right, and you might think, well
, people just do that without ushaving to support it.
It's like, well, clearly not.
People are saying they'relonely and people are saying
(41:53):
they don't have any friends.
Like, right, we might actuallyneed to make policies and and
actually structures in society,maybe even the built environment
needs to be made in such a waythat, just like in zootopia,
they had like the little doorsfor like the little mice and
then the doors for the rabbitsand the doors for the giraffes,
like we might actually have tobuild the environment in such a
way that it suits our natures.
(42:15):
I don't know.
Piazzas, uh, or, or publictransit, or just getting cars,
because cars are dangerous anddivide, cut up and cut up
neighborhoods so people can'tconnect.
Maybe just getting cars out ofa third of all streets, so 30 of
streets have no cars, just asan example of like sure what you
could do well.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
And they say it's way more successful to to change
the environment than to try toalter people's bit, you know
like right, right to change theenvironment so that it naturally
creates the behavior you'rewanting to incentivize, instead
of trying to just scold peopleinto doing the right thing.
Right, yeah, no, you don't wantto do anything like that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
No, and you certainly don't want to take rights away
from people and you certainlydon't want to, you know, make
them conform to some mold oflike nature that you're supposed
to be.
That's all bullshit, becausepart of human nature is like
choice and controlled randomness, where we like go off and try
new things and do.
That's part of human nature.
So you don't want to constrainthat.
But, yeah, I wonder if this isa way to approach where it's not
(43:15):
left, it's not right, it's notconservative, it's not socialist
, it's Zootopian.
And people can ask you, youwhat's your politics?
And you can say zootopian.
I think we should live in aworld where society suits and
upholds our nature as humanbeings.
Okay, and, and you couldn't saythat 50 years ago, because we
didn't have the science, wedidn't know about attachment
(43:36):
theory, we didn't know dunbar'snumber, we didn't know, you know
, uh, about the effects ofloneliness on people.
We didn't know about thesethings.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
We didn't have the movie Zootopia.
People wouldn't understand thereference at all.
No one would have gotten it.
It would have been 1974.
You would have had to been likehey man, what do you think man?
Speaker 1 (43:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It wouldn't have worked out.
You're right, we had to wait 50years, jesus 50 years ago was
only 1974.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, sorry, 70 years ago, that's how math works.
70 years ago we didn't have it.
God, we're old.
Well, cool, I don't know.
This was sort of about movies,which is part of solutions.
I feel like we're alwaystalking about movies, but it
took Zootopia to a deep, deep,profound philosophical level.
So next profound philosophicallevel.
(44:24):
So next time you're watchingthose little, that little you
know, bunny bounce around on thescreen with her fox friend, you
can be like whoa this is deep.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
You're like this is about more than just what
they're saying.
Oh, wait a minute.
All cartoon wait movies havelike themes and meanings and oh
my gosh, this is blowing my minddo?
Speaker 1 (44:39):
I sound like an insufferable adolescent gorilla
right now.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Get out of our troop of gorillas.
But when you rear back and bangon your chest real big, then I
do.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Is that what you guys do at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?
Is that a common move, that's?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
the most common move.
You're not allowed to finish amatch without doing that At
least once.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Thanks everybody for listening to this.
No edit, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
This is the closest we're going to get to a live
stream, because I'll basicallyend this, go back and upload it
and it'll be out today.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
All right, we'll see everybody in the soup.
Please message us See you inthe soup.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
We can start a bit of a dialogue.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, see you in the dialogue.
Yeah, see you in the soup.
You've never heard that.
What kind of soup?
I'm thinking like a little bitof a broccoli, maybe broccoli
floating by maybe some mushrooms.
Are you thinking like a chili?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
you're thinking like beans I was going tomato, tomato
.
You know what I like to make isa wild rice soup, so good.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I make it with cashew instead of milk, so it's like
dairy-free.
It's's so good.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Okay, thanks for inviting me over.
I'll come over for some wildrice soup.
Wild rice soup.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Just bring some celery and some carrots.
I got everything else we need.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I make it mean stone soup.
Have you had stone?
Speaker 1 (45:51):
soup before.
Yeah, stone soup, that's likeeverything right, that's like
whatever you got in the kitchen.
Well, no, Like my neighbor putsin.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
I just need some onions.
He puts in, and then anotherneighbor brings in some carrots.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Have you seen this.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Do you know this story?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I just know what Stone Soup is.
Stone Soup is whatever you gotin the fridge, whatever you got
in the house.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
It's an old kid's story where, like, a guy tricks
a bunch of people who are mad ateach other and not wanting to
cooperate into making souptogether, and then, by the end
of it they're all.
They're all friends.
So oh, shout out to stone soup.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
The kids book oh, get your stones ready, everybody
all right, all right.
Thanks everybody for listeninggo live your zootopia enjoy be
in the soup.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
What is that?
Be in the sea in the soup.
See you in the soup, everybodybe in the soup.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Bye, bye-bye, thank you.
so we were given a solution by uh someone on
discord what but I don't reallyI don't.
I'll just say what it is.
So.
So tsunami jake shout out totsunami jake on discord.
He said that maybe prisonsshould have mascots and colors
and sports prisons havingmascots, colors and sports.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah, like like the longest yard.
The movie where they playedfootball, yeah there you go
right.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
So thank you to tsunami jake for that solution.
It's very cool.
I'd like I don't want todiscuss the whole thing, but
that's cool.
So people should send in theirsolutions and you'll get a shout
out, or just send in anything,and when you'll get a shout out
on the podcast also a little Iwas I was listening to Ezra
(00:57):
Klein on his podcast is doing atwo part episode on the birth
rate and like, yeah, the birthrate is too high or too little.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, you sent me a link to the, to one of those.
Yeah, and it's good.
And too high or too little?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
yeah, you sent me a link to the to one of those yeah
, and it's good, and and I justwanted to tell everyone, we
solved it.
They, they don't have asolution, but we already solved
it.
If you go back, uh, to episode,uh, episode 448, the title is a
woman's issue.
We're going to change the title, but basically the idea is like
what they talk about in in theepisode but then they get
(01:25):
totally wrong, is they say,every society that implements
higher education for women, thebirth rate plummets.
And then they don't come to theconclusion that we already came
to, or I came to, which is likewe just need to accelerate the
pace that we do education sothat everybody can get a
master's degree by the age oflike 21.
(01:47):
And if you did that, then women,the whole birth rate issue
would become a non-issue,because women would have the
freedom to have both a greateducation and start families in
their 20s or whatever, when theyare most sort of capable of
doing that.
So, anyways, they, for somereason uh, I think it's because
these, they they're just, youknow, ezra Klein and his guests
are just like way overeducated,and so they can't think about
(02:11):
like changing education to bebetter, like shorter, anyways.
So we have a solution to thattoo.
So there you go.
There's two solutions in thewild, two in the wild, nice
kickoff yeah, how are you doing,scott?
(02:32):
I see this bunny cat cam you'vejust added to the screen I'm
learning to put graphics andthings on is that the actual?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
cat live.
Yeah, it's right here if Ireach over.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
He wasn't moving at all, he was, so still no, he's
sleeping, but let's see if I canoh, you're a cutie kitty, yeah
that's a live camera.
It's a great, the great cat cam, and it's got such a nice
little graphic around it yellowframe.
It's hilarious.
Well, that's great, that'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
We're trying to do one with minimal edits, because
we're going to put it out thesame day.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We record it, we don't normally do this, we just
do no edits.
What do we call that?
No fill Hashtag.
No edits.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Hashtag it's all in the can.
We're all hanging out everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Everything that goes in comes out the other end.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
All right.
Well, this is not our usual.
I say no edits and then I wouldgo and cough off the side.
No edits.
Okay, Let me chew into themicrophone.
What are all those?
Wait, let's just do another.
Take here the cardinal sins ofbroadcasting.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Are those given?
What are they?
What are those?
What are the cardinal sins ofbroadcasting?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Eating on mic, chewing into the mic, yeah,
coughing.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
We do all these things Right All the things that
make us oh God, we're bad, thatmake us great.
Well, I've got a solution.
Should I just go straight in?
Should we go straight into thesolution?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Let Should I just go straight in?
Should we go straight into thesolution?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Let's go straight in, since there's no edits.
We got no edits, we got to doit Okay.
So today I'm proposing Zootopia.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
No, I think that's already.
I've already.
I saw that actually years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So it's a it's a movie idea that no one's ever
come up with before.
It's about a rabbit, but that'swhat I'm saying rabbit turn,
decide no hold on one second therabbit decides to become a
police officer actually nofirefighter and then she decides
she's gonna move from thelittle bumpkin country village
she lives in with the rabbitfarmers who are farming celery
not carrots, but celery and thenshe decides to go to the big
(04:38):
city where she becomes afirefighter.
All right, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
now just stick with me here.
This might sound crazy.
What would you think if Isuggested the names of jennifer
goodwin and jason?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
bateman good choices those be uh well, well, well,
choices for your idea.
I I think that would be wouldbe good.
I think jason would be a goodchoice.
There's not a good.
That was my jason, justinbateman oh, that's the jason
bateman.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think I have one.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I don't know, I don't know enough.
He just goes up real high.
The more awkward the situation,the higher, and then he puts
pauses where they don't belong.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
See everybody.
This is a perfect thing that Inormally would maybe not make it
all the way to the end.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, this would not get in, dang it.
Okay, let's talk about Zootopia.
So what I'm?
Yeah, zootopia is in my, so itis kind of from the movie.
But I think it's the deepermeaning of the movie, which is a
longing that we have in apost-capitalist industrial
society to live in a societywhere we can enjoy the benefits
(05:46):
of technology and trade andscience and commerce, but also
are not alienated from our ownnatures.
Okay, and I call that conceptzootopia, and I think that's
what the movie illustrates right.
So they go in and they havethis whole city, they have all
the benefits of technology, buteverything's perfectly aligned
(06:08):
for each animal's nature.
You know, so the right food.
You know the bunnies are eatingcarrots and the camels are
eating whatever.
And the you know the everyone'sat the doors are the right size
, the houses are there.
Everything's aligned perfectly.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So everyone's nature is catered to in our society.
We don't do that.
You've got the mass transitwith all the different sizes of
doors for the different sizes ofcreatures.
I'm sure you enjoy that and itwas multimodal.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
There was cars too.
There was different sized carsand different roads for
different sized cars, and right,it was all multimodal.
There was also trains and bikesand stuff too.
It it was great.
It was a great city.
So I propose that Zootopiabecome a primary guiding
ideology for policy andgovernment and commerce and
(06:58):
everything Perfect that weshould adopt Zootopia, okay and
the alternative is oh, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Oh, I was going to say step one.
We got to get rid of all thehumans because I've seen the
movie no humans.
Step two we've got to you know,Planet of the Apes, all the
different species of animals,and make them all talk and walk
Up, evolve them a little bit.
I'm on board, we can do this.
(07:26):
I know a guy, Dr Moreau.
He has an island we can usewhere he's been really working
on this sort of things.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sign me up, I'm in it , I'm in.
So the problem when you don'thave Zootopia, you have zookosis
.
Have you heard that term?
No, zookosis.
I think that's a lot, and notjust I think this, but lots of
people believe that we'resuffering from zookosis.
Is that a real word?
(07:50):
Yeah, it's a real word.
What it means is the animals,the disease, the sort of
syndrome of symptoms thatanimals get when they're in zoos
and they're not in anenvironment that matches their
nature, that's in accord withtheir nature.
They get zucosis.
It's like the.
You know, when you add kosisonto something, it's like a
(08:11):
disease well, yeah, is that likejust called?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
is that like mixing zoo and psychosis?
Yeah, exactly, exactly zootopiais just zoo plus utopia, which
is the perfect city, right andso sure?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
or just topia means place, so zootopia means a place
of life.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You don't think they were going for utopia like the,
the perfect city they were.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
They were going yeah, you maybe yeah zootope utopia
is right there in the word, butit also is just zootopia.
Zone is life and then topos isplace so you could yeah, it
could be, but I think you'reprobably right.
It is kind of a utopic,although it's not totally utopic
.
They have like police and crimeand you know so it's still a
(08:54):
whole conspiracy.
It's not like it's not likeeverything's perfect, you know,
sure, yeah but that's what theywant it to be.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's what they're shooting for.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I mean, they have it pretty well dialed in, yeah,
pretty good.
I mean they've got it prettygood, but I mean we also have
things pretty good.
I mean, look at holland.
Holland is already basically ahuman utopia.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
There's virtually nothing wrong with it so pixar
did it, one that's kind ofsimilar.
Or recently, have you seenelemental, where the not yet
fire people have?
To live with the water peopleand the air, people and the
earth people.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
You know, yeah, is it the same thing where they?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
it's similar where it's a society, supposedly,
where all four things aresupposed to coexist and travel
around together, and and thatcauses friction and tensions.
It's not.
It's not, excuse me no edits noI gotta edit those out, okay.
Okay, we'll edit the top soit's not meant to be a utopia.
(09:56):
That's why they call itelemental.
It's just meant to be like abunch of things smushed together
.
I don't know I some peoplereally hated it.
I I uh, some people didn't likeit very much.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I did, I enjoyed myself quite a bit, but I
definitely will watch it.
I need to watch that onebecause I do like pixar, even if
sometimes they miss.
I think they missed with luca,although my life, my wife loves
luca, so I don't know.
It's great.
Yeah, it's great.
You like luca, okay?
I do but yeah, I mean, I guessin some ways it's all just like
metaphors for a multiracialdemocracy which, you know, we're
(10:26):
very early on in America tohave a multiracial democracy.
It's only been like 70 yearssince, or not even 60 years
since, civil rights.
So I mean, we're only twogenerations or two and a half
generations into a multiracialdemocracy.
We're still trying to figureout how to do it.
Yeah but there's a bigger issue, though, which is zookosis, I
(10:48):
think, or and I mean not maybe-so tell me more about zookosis.
So zookosis is like you know.
Have you ever gone?
You ever seen like in sea world, like the, the killer whales,
uh uh fin.
On the top dorsal fin flumpsover.
That's like part of zookosis.
It's like a sign that theanimal has been living in
captivity they can't figure out.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I've heard that they can't figure out like yeah, how
there's no, there's no physical,physiological reason why it's
happening, other than just theydon't they're not swimming they
lost their mojo, right yeahthey're not like swimming in the
open ocean.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
and there's some, there's some.
And then, you know, for humanbeings you see it in animals,
tigers who are kept in too smallof a cage will just pace back
and forth.
That's a sign of them being inlike pretty extreme mental
distress from being just likelocked up when they're supposed
to be ranging across you knowhundreds of acres of of land and
hunting and stuff.
They get zookosis and humanbeings might be suffering from
(11:47):
zookosis as well, because we arewild animals that sort of
domesticated ourselves, like 400years ago or 400 years ago,
400,000 years ago, we sort ofdomesticated each other in a
wild context.
So we're still a wild animal.
(12:17):
That was that, that selfdomesticated, Right, a wild
animal, just the human beings.
We're kind of putting humansinto these sort of zoos and the
question is, are we buildingzoos, zootopias, or are we
building sort of zookosis wards,you know, like these sort of
zookosis environments?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, well, I mean, we are primates, we are, you
know, a member of the apesfamily.
You know, like that there issomething very primal and you
can see that sometimes, when orfeel that, when, like you have
rage surge up or you feel strongemotions of like, uh, love or
happiness or any of the strongemotions don't think I get to
(12:57):
pretty much any other time andthat feels very tied to like DNA
(13:18):
and primal stuff and it doesn'tfeel like it's something that
sitting and typing on thekeyboard or walking around in
clothes and driving cars, itdoesn't come anywhere close to
touching.
I think there are parts of whatwe've engineered as a human
society that very much cut offthings from our just natural
(13:39):
animal self and I do think thataffects us in some ways.
I bet yeah, you know, there'snot a lot of.
When you get the ability tokind of consider existence and
your own existence and like zoomout and think about meta things
, that comes with a lot of likeanxiety and different issues
(14:00):
that are going to come alongthat, like, my cat is not
dealing with because my cat isnot pondering those, those
issues yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I totally agree.
I think there's, there's somewe see glimpses of it right of
like our nature, of feeling moreat ease and feeling more in our
, in, you know our, environment.
I forget, I forget whereexactly, but I was, I was, I was
learning about um, some it'sgonna sound trite, but some
(14:32):
tribe in africa, right, that wasun unindustrialized and and un
technological, technological,but they had interactions with
um, you know, uh, moreindustrialized africans from
travelers from other parts ofthe world, and one of their
impressions was when they wereasked would you ever like to go
to, like New York, would youever like to go to, you know, to
(14:55):
like an industrialized place?
One of their interesting thingsthey would say this one tribe
would say was they'd say no, I'dnever want to go there.
That's where people jump off ofbuildings to kill themselves,
and that's the crazy, like.
That was like the craziestthing they could possibly
imagine, and that anyone woulddo that to them was a sign that
the whole society was just likesick, beyond um, beyond
(15:19):
recognition.
You know something they wouldwant to be a part of.
You know, sure, yeah, um, now,granted, that's I mean.
I'm sure there's a lot of otherconcerns and they're just
anchoring on something.
But the fact that they anchoron something that I think even
we would say is reallydistressing, which is like a
suicide rate which you know ispretty consistent across
(15:39):
industrialized countries.
Country suicide rates are likefour and four and a thousand, or
four and a thousand or four andten thousand people commit
suicide is very consistent, evenif society is different.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Uh, it's very consistent I mean, they may not
like the idea of possiblyjumping off of buildings, but
have they tried candy crush,because maybe that would change
their mind.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
That's true.
Or driving like 100 miles anhour on a highway.
Yeah, with the windows down.
Well, maybe not the windowsdown going 100, but radio on.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Maybe riding in an AI thing that's driving for them.
I feel like going from anon-car lifestyle to driving
that's a pretty big ask.
I don't think.
If you don't grow up in a carculture, I feel like the idea of
having to drive somewhere seemsmore like why would you do that
to me?
Have someone else do that forme?
(16:37):
Why do I have to make decisionsat 100 miles an hour in the
midst of doing this?
That makes no sense at 100miles an hour in the midst of
doing this.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
That makes no sense, right?
So we could build a societythat was a Zootopia.
So it's just an interestingproposal.
I think it's different fromother proposals for better
societies, right?
So people would say let's makesociety more just, right, like
more fair, you know, moreegalitarian, like that's one,
(17:07):
that's one like intent, you knowone kind of guiding principle
for how to make society better.
Um, another another that'smaybe a more kind of progressive
sort of left-wing one, uh,another.
Another one might be like amore of a right-wing one, like
let's more fully live up to theideals of tradition, um, and,
(17:30):
and, and, and that's that's goodsociety, right, a society that
more fully lives up to thesesort of virtue, virtuous
traditions, which seems to bekind of a conservative right.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It feels like one side is sort of like let's clamp
down on people and that willsort of create the shape of
society we want, and the otherside's like kind of let's let
loose on people and that willproduce the shape of the society
we want yeah, and that's that'slike from the the first stage
of like, what do you do topeople?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
but the other one's the outcomes right.
So one want one in egalitariansociety, wants that outcome
where where, whatever you do, itleads to greater, greater
equality, fairness and equalityand justice across not just race
and gender and stuff, but alsoeconomic stuff.
And then the other one says,well, let's not worry maybe so
much about the only outcome.
(18:20):
We really want is that we getto these sort of ideals of
tradition strong men, beautifulwomen, you know, healthy
children, you know these are thetraditional sort of things.
We need to hit these.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
We need to hit these sort of aesthetic those weird
traditional people with theirdesires for healthy children.
Yeah, not like us modern smartpeople.
We are like we don't care ifour children are healthy or not.
We're just indifferent to thatwhole right, right you know.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Well, I mean, to some extent, is you know it's more
about the equality, right, ifyou, or healthy or not, we're
just indifferent to that wholeidea, right, right, you know
Well, I mean, to some extentit's more about the equality
right if you think about it.
But anyways, this is sort ofproposing another alternative to
either of those right.
Okay, so if, instead of sayingwell, we want greater equality
and justice or we want greatersort of living up to these sort
of traditional ideals, if yousay no, we just want a society
(19:07):
that lives up to our nature andeliminates zookosis from
humanity.
And signs of zookosis would belike malaise, uh, mental illness
, uh, drug addiction, um, um,you know, low satisfaction rates
with work, low satisfactionrates, you know, uh, high levels
(19:30):
of neuroticism, high levels ofanxiety.
Honestly, I think I would justsay I think women are more
susceptible to zookosis than men, I think maybe because of the
patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
No, it's because men have those big, strong muscles.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So we're too, strong the zookosis yeah, we just punch
zookosis when it gets to us.
You're the Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You put them in like a clamp lock, a double leg clamp
lock.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Take that.
Well, I was going to saybecause of patriarchy.
Men have basically builtsociety and I think we've built
it wrong even for men.
But we made it made it evenworse, I think, for women than
for men.
Um, just because, like, forexample, if we've made a society
that's kind of lonely, which Ithink is universally believed,
if we built a society that'skind of lonely, women are more
(20:23):
social than men, so theloneliness is even worse for
them, right, right.
And if we've built a societythat's sort of disjointed
socially, by kind of havingpeople move away from their
nuclear families and havingpeople, you know, moving all
over the country and world allthe time and kind of totally
disjointed, you know, for menwe're, you know, evolutionarily,
we would have been able, wewould have like wandered off
(20:45):
from the tribe and like joinedother tribes, whereas women
would have like been kind ofcloser into their tribe, you
know their band.
That's just.
I think that's a well-knownthing about human beings, you
know.
Just like you see with chimpschimps, the males just wander
off and spend time separate fromany band and then join other
bands, whereas the women chimpsstay more close into the band
(21:07):
that they're in.
So our society that letseverybody move, the men.
That kind of is an analog tolike, maybe, a male experience,
or you know, the average male,maybe you know, it's just all
statements of trends, right,women can have all kinds of
lives and desires and things,but I'm just saying it's a
statement of a trend maybe evenin guerrilla cultures, like guys
through go through this, um,this phase of just being like
(21:30):
insufferable and terrible, andthey're just like they wanted to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
They're like you know what?
I have some ideas for, uh, fora, for a jungle startup that we
could like.
Actually, if you want to hear,if you want to hear my new ideas
for how we can really climbthese trees, what, what look, if
you climb a tree 1% moreefficiently every day, then by
the end of the year you're likeyou need to go and walk around
(21:54):
another.
Get out of here, please leaveLike just male apes, get to a
certain age and they're justlike okay you need some time.
Like you might go find someother people who aren't already
tired of you and didn't see yougrow up, and maybe they'll find
you interesting, but not here myguy Not here.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
We've seen where all this has come from.
It's boring, it's tiresome.
Please get out of here.
I think that probably is whatwas it Two?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
years ago you were taking your poop and throwing it
against that thing over there.
Yeah, Don't try and convince us.
You're some sort of supergenius now.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I guess it is right that's a young, young males.
They probably get sort ofannoying, they get a little
aggressive, they get a littlebit like kind of sticking their
fingers that they don't belongcertainly get the hell out of
here you know, and then theykind of wander off and it serves
an evolutionary purpose, right?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
because it serves this sort of widespread right
and yeah, sort of spread, we arethe Right and yeah, sort of
spreads the genes, right, we arethe dandelion, the floating
dandelion, things trying to finda new spot Right, and so we're
more comfortable with a littlebit more loneliness.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
We're a little more comfortable.
I think it's even too lonelyfor men, I think you know it's
just too much.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I want to make it clear I don't think there are
necessarily these differencesbetween men and women.
I'm just playing into the jokeof it, but yeah, you don't think
there's a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
You don't think women are more social.
Look at how they.
Look at how they behave.
How could it not?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I don't know.
I think they seem more social.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Some of it is like that's not a that's not a diss.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I actually think it's probably better to be more
social than to be like more of aloner my, my brain is thinking
like is it that they it thatwomen are naturally more social,
or because of the patriarchysociety we've set up?
They have to become more social.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
But chimps behave.
That way is the thing.
It makes me think we're likechimps, even baboons the same
thing.
Baboons, chimps, all of them.
The men will wander off and thewomen will stay closer.
But don't chimps also eat otherchimps?
Yeah, so do baboon.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So I mean so not everything we've stopped the
eating what if zookosisscientists find out that
zookosis is caused by us notfully experiencing like the
eating?
Cannibalism yeah right, likethey're like you need to be like
full animals, which meanseating other.
(24:12):
Like you need to fight eachother in the streets and then
eat each other so there's also.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It turns out there's a game, there's a video game
called zookosis that lookshorrifying.
It's like a horror game whereanimals are being killed by like
an alien monster and you haveto like kill the alien monster.
This is not what I mean byzookosis, no people shouldn't go
by the the video game.
Video game, no version of it sothe idea of zookosis in humans
(24:40):
is a mental health theory.
That is I don't know how well,how well documented I I can look
it up on Google Scholar quick.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Remember you got to go quick, no edits.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So if I say zookosis humans, then you can see there's
a few.
Yeah, this is not a lot ofcitations.
This is very much like awackadoo.
I'm talking about a wackadoothing here, just so you know so
just so I understand thepractical version of how we
would.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You're like we got to get to a Zootopia, but what are
the steps to?
Where do you start?
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Well, I guess I'm more just proposing what do you
think?
What if people thought about itthat way instead of saying
egalitarianism or socialism orcapitalism or conservatism, and
instead they were like Zootopia?
Let's try to make a societythat is in a line as closely as
(25:39):
possible with our natures.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
But then it becomes a question of what is our?
That's a question.
What's our nature?
That's a question that they'vebeen trying to answer forever,
right?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And I think you're right, and I think part of it,
the dangerous part would be totry to define positively Our
nature is this way, thereforeconstrain people to that.
I think that's not good, right.
I think the better idea wouldbe to say what is it not in our
nature to do and try to avoidbad things, rather than try to
constrain people to a certainsort of mold.
(26:11):
Right, but it's the samequestion what is our nature?
It's just the response ofwhether do we eliminate things
that are not in our nature or dowe constrain people to a sort
of positive impression of whatour nature is.
The second one is bad, isdangerous because of people,
especially humans.
There's a lot of humans who arejust wacky and they go way
outside, drive way outside thelines, and I think that's fine
(26:32):
and good for them to do, youknow, as long as they don't like
hurt other people.
But there's a lot of things inour society that are just
against our nature and we justpersist, we just keep them, and
they're clearly like causingpeople well, I was gonna say the
first one, where you just starteliminating things you see as
problems.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I feel like, isn't that, isn't that how we got to
here?
Like, isn't that?
Yeah right, like you would justbe out of food.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Let's make agriculture.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
It's a problem to steal things, so let's make
stealing illegal.
It's a problem to kill people.
Let's make killing, let'soutlaw these things so that we
can build our society to thenext level of.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Maybe one theory that would help us is this guy named
Ivan Illich, who is a sort ofsocial theorist, who was
Austrian but he worked in Mexicoin the 60s.
Actually my dad met him a fewtimes when he was down there.
But he's a well-known socialtheorist guy.
He's kind of like a little bitof a marxian, but he's not
(27:30):
explicitly like marxist, andanyways he wrote he had this
whole theory that he called uh,he called conviviality or or
hyper industrialization thoseare those are opposites.
So hyper industrialization iswhen you industrialize too far
and you start to eliminate whathe called conviviality, which is
kind of what I'm describing asutopia, but I'm using a more of
(27:53):
like a biological framework forit and he's using more of a kind
of I don't know common sense.
He's just saying what'sconvivial, what is a nice way
for humans to live?
I'm saying no, let's look atthe actual biology of human
nature and then use that as amodel for Zootopia, whereas he
(28:13):
was just saying let's be Anyway.
So Ivanilich describes thisidea of hyper-industrialization.
I think we can use that as amodel for what's going on in our
society.
We've, we've, we've.
Industrialization was good.
Like you said, solve theseproblems, let's solve this
problem, solve that problem isall this problem.
But then what it led to is liketoo much and we started to get
(28:35):
diminishing returns and then weeven started to get inverted
negative returns because wesurpassed.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
They're like oh, pumping all this coal dust into
the air makes everyone's healthgo way down.
Pumping all this carbon dioxideinto the atmosphere makes the
global warming go way up.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
The seeking for profits over all other goods has
caused mental illness andcaused all kinds of anxieties
and depressions.
Yeah, exactly, Separated motherfrom child.
At this point we're in aposition where most
technologically advancedchildren, at least in America,
(29:17):
don't have a childhood.
That doesn't seem like a goodidea.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Like they just are exposed right away to don't have
a childhood.
That doesn't seem like a goodidea.
You know, Like they just areexposed right away to.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
They just immediately are put on phones and they just
spend hours every day onscreens and they don't go
outside.
They don't play and when theydo play, it's completely
observed by their parents andmoderated by their parents,
which is not play.
We all know that when adultswere around, we didn't really
play and then, when adults weregone, we actually did some like
(29:47):
serious play you know, we likeactually we could do some fun
stuff.
Um, so like, basically and thisis not me saying this this is
jonathan height.
One of the leadingpsychologists today, is going on
tv right now.
He's selling his whole booksomething anxiety generation
where he talks all about this.
And he I just saw him on he'sin, he's on the New York times,
(30:09):
he's on Joe Rogan, he's oneverything saying this and I
don't think he's wrong.
I think he's wrong about otherthings, about his psychology
stuff that he does, but he's notwrong about this.
He's really saying like this isa big problem.
Children saying like this is abig problem.
Children are not having achildhood anymore.
That's the opposite of zootopia, that's the opposite of
conviviality.
Yeah, that's gonna, there'sgonna be some.
That's not good yeah, I don'tknow I mean I.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
We have a generation of people that grew up with a
certain set of issues, but Ithink there's another.
Not not being able to go outand really experience the world
until you're a certain age isgonna cause a whole nother set
of issues with people who arejust, like you know, like
letting, letting people lose.
Some people will handle it,some people.
(30:52):
It's just going to be way toomuch like all at once.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It's, I guess, not good the trade anyways, it's
just all these things that we Ihear I'm kind of synthesizing
all of this into this.
Maybe we're doing a theoriesfrom the multiverse today, kind
of synthesizing everything intothis term, this idea of Zootopia
.
And then it's opposite Zookosis.
So when you don't have Zookopia, you'll see increases in
(31:17):
Zookosis, which will be anxiety,depression, low level, low
level mental illness will go up.
And we've talked about thisbefore with the attachment issue
, right.
So if we, if we force women andmen to go to work right after
they've had a kid and they don'twe don't give them the first,
you know, year to three years ofa child's life to form proper
(31:39):
attachments, um, then, and if wereckon yeah, reckon, yeah, then
, then then we'll have, we'llhave major zookosis.
It's just like if you said, hey, we, we have the baby, we have
the baby seal is born, and thenwe keep the mother seal in a
different cage from the babyseal, it's like, well, you're
(31:59):
gonna, meant, you're gonna harmthe baby seal that way, like
it's so obvious, like the motherright need to stay together and
the dad should probably bethere too, unless, like I don't
know, dad seals like eat thebabies or something like I don't
know what the nature of sealsare.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
But in the nature of humans, like you know, everybody
should be like around the baby,forming connections and bonds
right, or they should be allowedto form whatever connections
and bonds that they would do inthe wild.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Right like right, there are some, I think, polar
bears, it's like the dads youhave to be out of the picture,
but, like dads, just need to go,yeah, but some, some species.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
They're like yeah, we do this as a group, and some
people, some species, do it notjust as like a, a parent child
group, but as like a group ofparents and a group of children.
You know, it's like.
I think we, when we pull people,zoos are.
Zoos are this whole thing whereit's like it's good to be able
to see animals up close and kindof get the safe kind of a safe
(32:56):
experience, that close to a realanimal.
But it's also terrible toremove an animal from its
natural spot just so we can likeGoogle at it and point at it
and take pictures, so it's.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, I'm going to the San Diego Zoo next weekend.
Great, so we'll see.
I'll report back what animals Ithought had zookosis and what
animals didn't.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I didn't.
I mean, I feel very conflictedabout American zoos anyway, but
going to zoos in Japan I waslike, oh, american zoos actually
take a lot more care for itthan some places in the world
where they're just like no,these are animals.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
They're animals, put them on display.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There was like a rhino.
There was like a rhino.
So in Asahikawa, which is inHokkaido, is one of the most
famous zoos in Japan and I wentto the zoo there and they have
like a rhino just standing onlike a small concrete pillar,
basically like rhino-sizedpillar, and they're like, look,
(33:58):
there's a rhino.
And you're like, yeah, ofcourse there's the rhino, it
can't go anywhere else.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
It just has to kind rhino.
And you're like, yeah, ofcourse there's the rhino.
It can't go anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
It like it just has to, kind of like you're saying
pace back and forth and that'sall I can do, but it's uh like
on a plinth.
Yeah right, american zoos havebeen better than that, but still
, you know, now we're in the ageof high, high, uh high frame
rate, 4k, you know, 8k film anddocumentarians who can go out
and get it.
So I'm like almost at the pointwhere I'm like I don't know, I
(34:28):
think I'm good just seeing it onon screens and stuff or make
the zoos like you know, like thesan diego zoo.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I've never been to san diego zoo but I've heard
it's like an experience, like asafari.
The animals are like in a hugeenvironment.
That that is.
You know.
They're not going to beexperiencing zookosis and I
think they do it the best.
Yeah, and and, but you couldjust say the laws are, you have
to meet that standard, and thenthe zoos would just have fewer
animals, right?
I mean, that's the only thingthe zoo could still operate.
(34:55):
It just has to have feweranimals give them more space you
know yeah yeah, but that, yeah,it's just.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
It's probably low on the list of people's priorities
because they're like we gottawell, I'd like the human zoo to
be better first.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, I'd like the human zoo to be better.
That's what that is.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
If you're like, hey, we need to take care of.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
They're like we got people problems we need to take
care of yeah, you could alwaysdivert someone to somewhere else
although the japanese could doit, they don't have as many
people.
I mean, they have peopleproblems, but like there are a
bunch of people problems there,yeah, but they definitely are.
I think they are havingzookosis.
This this also comes back towhat we said, what I was talking
about a little bit at thebeginning, which is the birth
(35:35):
rate thing.
You know, in some ways nothaving babies.
That's what animals do whenthey have zookosis, right, when
animals are like, oh, they're inthe wild, they would have this
many children, but we can't getthem to breed in captivity.
We don't know why.
It's like that's zookosis, right?
That's a sign that you've taken.
You've put them in anenvironment that's not natural,
(35:57):
that's not fitting with theirnature.
And one of those signs ofzookosis is no reproduction,
whether it's not having sex ornot being fertile or or whatever
it is.
And if you look at Korea, theyhyper-industrialized very
rapidly.
If you go to Korea, it is gray,it is like cement everywhere
and it is like a gray.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I'm sure there's some neon and yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Neon.
Oh great yes.
But they hyper-industrialized,and now their birth rate's 0.7.
0.7?
That's 2.2 is just steady state, right?
Because the 0.2 counts forpeople who die.
And then 2 is replacement.
So 2.2 is replacement, 0.7 isless than 50 percent replacement
(36:44):
, which means that in onegeneration their population will
get done by half more than half.
Wow, so right now there's 50million koreans.
If they keep this up for for 40years, they'll only be 25
korean.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
25 million koreans, so half as many koreans it's
going to be twice as easy to getinto a Korean girl band or boy
band.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
You're looking at the upside.
Oh my goodness, there's somemajor upsides Right now.
The competition to get into oneof those is just incredible.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
But you're telling me that in a mere 50, just
naturally, I'm going to have atwice.
My shots are going to double.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I like I like you'll be old but, I'll be the.
No, I'll be.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'll be the old member.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Like you know how they all every member of the
group has a thing like there'sthe bad boy.
And there's, I'll be the likesuper old guy that's always what
people are looking for in boybands, yeah for for my verse in
the song.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I'll just be like hello.
I remember when there'll belike a really weird group of
fans that are just like that,are super into you, way into me
they're really into you, but youknow about scott.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Oh yeah, scott, he's great.
I like him it really went outon a limb to get Scott in there,
but I think they did a goodchoice.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I think he's really great.
You've done a bad job.
Now you have me all the way offof your idea, because now I
want yes.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Well, I mean, all this birth rate stuff is kind of
interesting because it's like,well, people can do whatever
they want.
If women want to have fewerchildren, it's up to them.
You can kind of see it as likea personal choice thing.
But then you look at it andyou're like but this is clearly
a sign that things have gone offthe rail.
This is a sign that something'sbad, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
but the statement if women want to have more children
, that's up to them and thenbeing like, well, maybe that's
not so you could see anyalternative to that is if women
want to have, if women don'twant to have children, that's
not up to them and that feelslike no part of that is no, it
is no, it is exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, that's the danger.
The danger is right-wing powerswho are not faint of heart
about reducing people's rights.
They can come in and say well,I've got an explanation, I've
got a solution, we'll just liketake these women and have them
not go to school anymore.
Look at that.
All of a sudden, we got moms inthe kitchen.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
You know exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So what I'm trying to propose is, I think if we, as
utopian approach, could be aleft wing or a not even
left-wing, just a sort of notfascist, not gender patriarchal
approach to, to to solving,among other things, I mean, I
think it would solve lots ofthings.
All.
I think a lot of these issuesthat we're facing in the
(39:34):
developed countries are zookosis.
I think that that's a that's akind of fringe idea, but I
wonder if it shouldn't be sofringe, but I, I guess I don't
understand that.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
If you're trying to say, hey, everyone be more
zootopian, or what?
Yeah, let's make everyonefollow your nature.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, let's use zootopian policies.
So, for instance, attachmentscientists will tell you that,
with evidence and proof, thathuman beings form attachments in
the first years of life andthat those attachments are
deeply, deeply important for thewell-functioning of our psyche
for the rest of our lives.
Sure, sure that's not like,that's not like a religion that
(40:15):
some guy made up a thousandyears ago.
That's science.
We figured out the last 50years and so that'd be zootopian
.
Okay, let's make a raft ofpolicies that support human
attachment boom, and it wouldprobably be the obvious things
parental leave, and.
But there's other things abouthuman, human nature, like, like
(40:36):
these questions about lonelinessand and community.
You know which?
We'd have to find the actualscience to really show it.
There is that, that number youtalked about it to me the other
day the, the 150 dunbar's number?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
yeah, dunbar's number tell.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Do you want to tell people because you just had in a
brunch a brush with dunbarhimself or something right,
didn't you?
I was editing?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
yeah, I was editing a podcast that he was a guest on,
so I heard a long interview ofhis and.
Dunbar's number is he's talkingabout.
Like historically, there's anumber of people that you can
kind of group and have a strongconnection with.
Or you know, you're not goingto have strong connections with
thousands and thousands ofpeople, like just across time
(41:21):
and across cultures.
It seems to be about 150.
They were saying 150 is likethe number of human connections
before you really just can'tmanage it anymore.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So so there you go so that's, there's science behind
that, so that's some kind ofstarts to in sit in, propose
this idea that we need to havelike support for human
communities, human connection,right, and you might think, well
, people just do that without ushaving to support it.
It's like, well, clearly not.
People are saying they'relonely and people are saying
(41:53):
they don't have any friends.
Like, right, we might actuallyneed to make policies and and
actually structures in society,maybe even the built environment
needs to be made in such a waythat, just like in zootopia,
they had like the little doorsfor like the little mice and
then the doors for the rabbitsand the doors for the giraffes,
like we might actually have tobuild the environment in such a
way that it suits our natures.
(42:15):
I don't know.
Piazzas, uh, or, or publictransit, or just getting cars,
because cars are dangerous anddivide, cut up and cut up
neighborhoods so people can'tconnect.
Maybe just getting cars out ofa third of all streets, so 30 of
streets have no cars, just asan example of like sure what you
could do well.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
And they say it's way more successful to to change
the environment than to try toalter people's bit, you know
like right, right to change theenvironment so that it naturally
creates the behavior you'rewanting to incentivize, instead
of trying to just scold peopleinto doing the right thing.
Right, yeah, no, you don't wantto do anything like that.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
No, and you certainly don't want to take rights away
from people and you certainlydon't want to, you know, make
them conform to some mold oflike nature that you're supposed
to be.
That's all bullshit, becausepart of human nature is like
choice and controlled randomness, where we like go off and try
new things and do.
That's part of human nature.
So you don't want to constrainthat.
But, yeah, I wonder if this isa way to approach where it's not
(43:15):
left, it's not right, it's notconservative, it's not socialist
, it's Zootopian.
And people can ask you, youwhat's your politics?
And you can say zootopian.
I think we should live in aworld where society suits and
upholds our nature as humanbeings.
Okay, and, and you couldn't saythat 50 years ago, because we
didn't have the science, wedidn't know about attachment
(43:36):
theory, we didn't know dunbar'snumber, we didn't know, you know
, uh, about the effects ofloneliness on people.
We didn't know about thesethings.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
We didn't have the movie Zootopia.
People wouldn't understand thereference at all.
No one would have gotten it.
It would have been 1974.
You would have had to been likehey man, what do you think man?
Speaker 1 (43:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It wouldn't have worked out.
You're right, we had to wait 50years, jesus 50 years ago was
only 1974.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, sorry, 70 years ago, that's how math works.
70 years ago we didn't have it.
God, we're old.
Well, cool, I don't know.
This was sort of about movies,which is part of solutions.
I feel like we're alwaystalking about movies, but it
took Zootopia to a deep, deep,profound philosophical level.
So next profound philosophicallevel.
(44:24):
So next time you're watchingthose little, that little you
know, bunny bounce around on thescreen with her fox friend, you
can be like whoa this is deep.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
You're like this is about more than just what
they're saying.
Oh, wait a minute.
All cartoon wait movies havelike themes and meanings and oh
my gosh, this is blowing my minddo?
Speaker 1 (44:39):
I sound like an insufferable adolescent gorilla
right now.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Get out of our troop of gorillas.
But when you rear back and bangon your chest real big, then I
do.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Is that what you guys do at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?
Is that a common move, that's?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
the most common move.
You're not allowed to finish amatch without doing that At
least once.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Thanks everybody for listening to this.
No edit, I know.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
This is the closest we're going to get to a live
stream, because I'll basicallyend this, go back and upload it
and it'll be out today.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
All right, we'll see everybody in the soup.
Please message us See you inthe soup.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
We can start a bit of a dialogue.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, see you in the dialogue.
Yeah, see you in the soup.
You've never heard that.
What kind of soup?
I'm thinking like a little bitof a broccoli, maybe broccoli
floating by maybe some mushrooms.
Are you thinking like a chili?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
you're thinking like beans I was going tomato, tomato
.
You know what I like to make isa wild rice soup, so good.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I make it with cashew instead of milk, so it's like
dairy-free.
It's's so good.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Okay, thanks for inviting me over.
I'll come over for some wildrice soup.
Wild rice soup.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Just bring some celery and some carrots.
I got everything else we need.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I make it mean stone soup.
Have you had stone?
Speaker 1 (45:51):
soup before.
Yeah, stone soup, that's likeeverything right, that's like
whatever you got in the kitchen.
Well, no, Like my neighbor putsin.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
I just need some onions.
He puts in, and then anotherneighbor brings in some carrots.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Have you seen this.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Do you know this story?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I just know what Stone Soup is.
Stone Soup is whatever you gotin the fridge, whatever you got
in the house.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
It's an old kid's story where, like, a guy tricks
a bunch of people who are mad ateach other and not wanting to
cooperate into making souptogether, and then, by the end
of it they're all.
They're all friends.
So oh, shout out to stone soup.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
The kids book oh, get your stones ready, everybody
all right, all right.
Thanks everybody for listeninggo live your zootopia enjoy be
in the soup.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
What is that?
Be in the sea in the soup.
See you in the soup, everybodybe in the soup.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Bye, bye-bye, thank you.
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