July 25, 2024 • 58 mins
James Millner, Director of VA Pride, explores inclusivity, opportunity, and fostering positive sociopolitical conversations during an election year with host Sean Murphy.
Episode two’s guest is James Millner, Director of VA Pride at Diversity Richmond and LGBTQ advocate, whom Sean has known—and been inspired by—for several decades. This discussion covers the special urgency of messaging and awareness during an election year, and more broadly covers the evolving discourse about maleness, with a special focus on how far America has come (and how much work still needs to be done) in terms of inclusivity and opportunity. If we look at the ways “wokeness” has been attacked by cynical opportunists, are there effective ways to engage and initiate conversations (instead of simply accepting that our sociopolitical discourse is a zero sum game)? James has years of experience and is ideally positioned to articulate that while many of these matters play out in the political and cultural arena, they are, of course, human issues, and require all of us to find more positive and peaceful ways to work and prosper.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Welcome to Some Things Considered, the podcastwhere we are obsessed with story. We celebrate
creativity and we talk to cool people to findout what makes them tick. I'm your host, Sean
Murphy. I'm an author. I direct the Center forStory at Shenandoah University and I run the
non-profit 1455 Lit Arts. For more about meand what I do, check out seanmurphy.net.
(00:35):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Some Things Considered.This is the podcast where we are obsessed with
creativity. We love to talk to cool people andfind out what makes them tick. I'm your host,
Sean Murphy. I'm an author, I direct the Centerfor Story at Shenandoah University, and I run
(00:56):
the nonprofit 1455 Lit Arts. For more aboutme and what I do, you can check that out at
seanmurphy.net. But what I like to say and whatI savor about these various roles that kind
of interact and carry over is that they enableme to meet and talk to and at times like today
reconnect with amazing human beings. One ofthem is with me now. I've known him and we
(01:20):
will talk about this for decades, even thoughwe both look like we're in our 20s. So just
deal with that. My good friend and a constantsource of inspiration to me, James Milner,
let me read his bio. and you'll see why I'mso excited to talk to him. James is the director
of VA Pride at Diversity Richmond and an LGBTQadvocate out of Central Virginia, i.e. Richmond.
(01:47):
He has an extensive and successful backgroundin nonprofit management, corporate and healthcare
communications, fundraising and event planning.His superpowers include being a connector of
people, organizations and ideas. And folks,trust me, that barely scratches the surface.
But James, great to see you, and thanks so muchfor being here. This is such a pleasure, Sean.
(02:11):
Thank you so much. So look, I'll try not todo the old thing that we always fall back into
and tell old stories because we're trying totalk about some current events, but I'm sure
folks listening will get a flavor of our friendshipbecause we just can't help but go there. But.
As I told you a few weeks ago, when you weregracious enough to accept my invitation, there's
(02:32):
never an inopportune time to talk to you, especiallyconsidering what you do, its relevance to like
our day to day, and shining a light on how inspiredpeople can tell their stories, that's always
valuable. But for me right now, especially inan election year, I do feel a sense of urgency
(02:55):
to start taking some deeper dives on the, verybroad topic of maleness, like with a capital
M. And to me, without wanting to either oversimplifyor over-complicate it, I think this notion
of maleness and especially toxic masculinity,which I think you have to kind of toxic masculinity,
it's at once totally discussed, and yet I don'tthink it's discussed in ways that are positive
(03:20):
enough or go deep enough into what is goingon behind these pathologies. So, I'd love to
start there if it's okay. And just ask you rightout of the gate, if I were to say to you, James,
how do you define maleness? And how has it differedin the decades we've known each other? Oh,
wow. How would I define maleness? Well, I mean,there's certainly the biological definitions
(03:49):
of it, correct? Right. And, but, you know, Ithink... And I think you can look at it a number
of different ways. At least I think you canlook at it from the perspective of societal
roles of men and the roles of men in societyand sort of those historical traditional roles
that men are expected to play, the protector,the provider, the sort of dominant figure in
(04:18):
society. But it's really interesting you know,as a gay man, you know, my definition, a gay
man with blue fingernails at the moment. I'mnot gonna talk about masculinity. Hell yeah.
But, you know, I think, you know, I had to redefinewhat, when I came out and when, and as through
(04:45):
my journey as a gay man, what maleness meantto me was a very different thing than I think
it might be for, cisgender heterosexual men,especially experiencing the same sex attraction
to other men. So the role of men in my lifeis vastly different than it might be for people
(05:10):
who are not gay. There is, you know, but therehas, you know, when I look back, on my life
and the role of men in my life, whether it bemy father, my brother, my fraternity brothers,
all of whom were sort of in that traditionalmale role for me, you know, of heterosexual
(05:36):
cisgender straight men. And then coming outand realizing that there's a whole other definition
of maleness within the gay community, wherethese people became my partners, my sexual
partners, You know, my friends in differentways, and with a tie that bound us in a way
(05:57):
that I was not connected to other men priorto me coming out. I don't know if that really
answers your question, but that's kind of arambling answer, but that's- No, no, it's perfect
and appreciated. I kind of wanted to set thetone with, and I think you hit on the key thing.
I didn't have any expectations from your answerother than I think the key notion to me is,
(06:20):
How do we define maleness? It's like you gotall day. It can't be, and it shouldn't be reduced
to how big your muscles are, or any other numberof ridiculous stereotypes. But I think one
of the things that makes your personal storyand your journey so interesting and applicable
is that you not only have kind of navigateda 20th century old school reality, navigated
(06:46):
that successfully, come through. stronger, happier,healthier, but then you made it a point, you
were drawn to advocacy and have now dedicatedyears to working nonprofit, raising awareness.
Talk a little bit about the intersection, right,between your personal journey and your professional
journey and how you kind of see your malenessor your individuality through these roles.
(07:14):
Well, so... the intersectionality of my malenessin these roles. So,
so one of the things that I think, you know,where this truly intersects is the definition
of male privilege and what that means. And Idon't think that, I think that is universal
(07:36):
across sexual orientation lines one way or theother, especially being a white man. And so
privilege exists within the sort of heteronormativedefinition of maleness, but it also definitely
exists within the gay community as well. Andthe more that I delved into the advocacy work,
(08:06):
the more I recognized that, and frankly, itwasn't even, well, so the more I delved into
the advocacy work, the more I realized thatthere comes tremendous power with being a white
man. But also, this notion that it just insulatesyou from so much, and even within the straight
(08:32):
community, even as a gay man, the fact thatI'm white and male also makes a difference
in that, when I show up in places, um wherethat are that are more heterosexual um and
so I think that there is you know there's youknow society views men as you know in very
(08:57):
different white you know views men um you knowin a very powerful as very powerful figures
and um you know I think that translates acrosseverything that I do. Yeah, and I think you
hit the nail on the head, I think, as it relatesto what I kind of teed up at the beginning.
(09:17):
In an election year, you can't open a newspaperor a news site or really any cultural online
source without at least seeing a reference towoke, to masculinity, to the notion of these
angry men in cells, the whole thing. So I'mcurious. How do you deal with advocacy, but
(09:43):
also kind of grappling with, even as a whitemale, people that somehow seem to think that
their historical privilege is being taken away?I think that's at the root of some of this
disconnect and anger. And some of us see itvery clearly, but on the other hand, the fact
(10:03):
that it's such an issue, clearly a lot of peoplearen't seeing it clearly. Yeah, I mean, I think,
to think about it, when you said the end cells,and I think about some of it, especially some
of the images from January 6th of these men,this rage that existed among them. And where
(10:26):
does that come from? And what is it that's drivingthat? I mean, it is... And you're right. I
mean, the fact, I mean, still, I mean, evenas much progress as we have made of, I think
becoming more inclusive and aware of the roleand the importance of women in our society
(10:47):
and our politics and everything else, that isstill very much dominated by men. And, you
know, it's, but it's, and I think, you know,some of that, is it's interesting because you
see the power that women have when they vote.It's not white men that are winning elections
(11:11):
for people. It is women that are driving ourelectorate right now. And I think men feel
that sort of power that they've always had,that grip that they've always had in politics
on social issues and everything else. slippingaway and they are, you know, you can just see
(11:35):
the desperation that they have in trying tohold on to it. And, you know, this concept
of wokeness that, you know, somehow that impliesa weakness. But those terms are coming from,
you know, from mostly men that are just horriblyIt's ironic in the sense that I think this
(12:02):
attack on quote unquote, woke-ness is emanatingfrom a place of weakness, from a place of fear.
To me, the concept of being woke is they wannadefine it actually requires a whole lot more
strength, a whole lot more intelligence, a wholelot more effort than it does to not be woke.
(12:27):
Yeah, and once again, I think you've nailed,you know, the crux of the matter, which is,
yes, it's coming from a place of insecurity,fear, how narrative is used in defining these
stereotypes of gender and how we view ourselvesor how traditional roles have been established
by media and movies in the entertainment industry.And, you know, I think looking at it from a
(12:52):
political lens, it's always easier to get peopleriled up. and make them feel like they're special.
And I think the one thing that I struggle withwhen I look at the side that is promoting inclusivity
and fighting against or pushing back againstwhite straight men trying to exert their control
(13:14):
and their dominance is rather than necessarilyshaming people, might we try... re-engaging
with more positive. So re-evaluating and redefiningwhat a man is and showing how things like wokeness
and DEI are very integral to the whole Americanexperiment as we define it as a melting pot,
(13:40):
e pluribus unum, all of that. I don't know ifwe've all done a good enough job actually recreating
the story to our advantage. Am I being too harshon? Cause I know it's a lot harder to clean
up messes than it is to create them, but I thinkwe could all do a better job of owning that
narrative. Oh, for sure. I mean, I think Sean,one of the things that is driving that, this
(14:10):
sort of rage and this desperation from thatone particular part of society and that...
the one part of our political spectrum is thefact that we are actually trying to redefine
what maleness is. And it's the idea that mencan't be sensitive, that men, and this is something,
(14:38):
I mean, it's very easy for people to sort ofsay that, oh, gay men aren't real men because
they're feminine or they're sissies. I mean,like, but even before you- even little kids
before they grow up and before they even understandthe word gay or the word queer, you were called
a sissy when you were little. If you exhibitedany sort of feminine traits or you were emotional
(15:01):
or you got caught crying on the playground orsomething like that. And in popular culture
and in the media, we're starting to see moreof I think we're starting to see more, you
(15:21):
know, a broader spectrum of what it means tobe a man. And that's what's really driving
this, you know, this really, really fierce oppositionto anything that challenges the notion of the
man is ahead of a family, the man is the breadwinner,the man is the strong person, the man is the
(15:44):
hunter, the man is the provider. You know, allof those types of things. I mean, I grew up,
you know, in a relatively rural area with adad that was all of those things. I mean, he
was the quintessential man. He was a gentleman.He was a hunter. He was a provider. He was
all of the things. You know, if you looked upthe definition of what the perfect man would
(16:10):
be, you know, you can kind of envision someonelike my father in that.
And I could tell as I was growing up, the disappointmentand I think the fear that he had when he realized
that I was not going to be that same definitionof man. Yeah, and I think that opens up kind
(16:36):
of this dual pathology which is we've got people.whether it's cynically or myopically, it's
a bit of both, and cynically wanting us to getback to when America was great. And what we've
seen is that even in the quote unquote goodold days, these men were not taught to express
(16:58):
feelings, were not taught to communicate inan honest and open way. So there was a lot
of this desperation and anger that has alwaysbeen located. with the head of the household,
the traditional male role. So A, why would wewant to ever go back to that? But B, I think
that opens up this weird place we're in nowwhere I feel like generally speaking, the younger
(17:21):
generation, there's an empathy that we completelylacked and there's an awareness and a kind
of a general acceptance of others. And that'sprogress. But where in our childhood, there
wasn't a lot of media noise or really politicalnoise other than like the far right of worrying
(17:44):
about this stuff. And now there's one politicalparty that that's all they seem to be obsessed
with. So, I mean, it's like we were making stridesand yet the battle gets more difficult every
day. And I think that's what I'm personallytrying to wrap my head around. I know it's
gonna be, you know, all progress is gradual.Small victories add up to big victories, but...
(18:07):
How do you view that from your purview? I mean,you just articulated your upbringing and that
disconnect, but what are you seeing, especiallyin your work with like the younger generation
and how they're dealing with this? I mean, it's180 degrees from how it was when I grew up.
(18:28):
I mean, even with the folks that I know thatare conservative, and I... definitely have
a clear delineation between people that areconservative and people that are, right-wing
nut jobs, sorry. But I mean, there are peoplethat are conservative and people that,
(18:53):
the acceptance of
a non-traditional gender role across the board,whether it be for men or women is, much more
is much greater than it ever used to be. Andeven in the 30 years that I've been doing this
(19:15):
work, seeing that evolve, I mean, and the wholeconcept that is such this hot topic, which
is at least you would think it was the mostimportant thing in the world, this concept
of gender and gender identity and everythingelse. I mean, you would think that you know,
it was, we were on the verge of nuclear warand what the world was gonna end tomorrow,
(19:37):
the way that it, that issue keeps coming tothe surface is the thing that people are most
worried about. And what I know about young peopleis that they don't care. They simply don't
care. You know, like I, you know, one of thethings that I do and like, and I, it's really
interesting. I went to a recovery meeting atVCU the other day where you know, I was by
(20:04):
far the oldest person in the room and I wentto it just largely because it was convenient
and at a time that I could do it. And, you know,I walked in and it was like, I realized that
A, there was no, it seemed like there was nodefined gender within that room. I mean, there
were people of all different gender identities,gender expressions, and certainly no, you know,
(20:31):
no really, and, no real defined like, you know,manly men or girly girls or whatever happened
to be there. It was, so, and that's, those wereall younger people, 20 somethings, early 30
somethings. And everybody just, you know, itdidn't matter to people. Yeah. It just, it's
just becoming a non-issue for folks, I think.Yeah, I mean, I think just looking at, you
(20:58):
know, my stepkids, my niece and nephew, thekids I teach, the undergrad level, I think
it's relatively safe to say, at least in moreurban and diverse areas, that battle has been
won, the inclusivity, the fluidity of identity,the embracing of, I don't have to wear, I mean,
(21:20):
we grew up, right, at a time where you worea polo or a eyes on, these things were critical
to fit in. One of the reasons I think the BreakfastClub was so- it captured the zeitgeist because
it was these different types all put together.I think that that's kind of the new normal
where in our day, conformity was the way tokind of blend in and succeed. So I guess on
(21:44):
one hand, and I think we've been circling aroundthis, I want to unequivocally celebrate the
progress that's been made. But I'm curious,so when you go to work every day or looking
at it on a year-to-year basis, what are thebig struggles in the work you do, what are
the biggest challenges as it relates to either,you know, equipping the younger folks to feel
(22:08):
and find their voice, or is the issue more,we got to deal with the old people who still
vote and are totally resisting any kind of change?You know, so I think that there is reason to
celebrate progress, but I think that the progressthat we have... achieved is remarkably fragile.
(22:31):
I do not think that the progress that we havemade into a more welcoming and inclusive society
is by any means a settled issue. And I thinkthat there is a real danger that it is gonna
go backwards. And the reason that it is so perilousis because of the fear that has now been instilled
(22:52):
in people. So it's not a matter of you know,a like, you know, one state having certain
laws that are more discriminatory towards acertain group of people than others. It is
now this constant and unending barrage of attack,and the distortion of the truth about what
(23:16):
it means to be an other, you know, whether that'sa black person, a gay person, a trans person,
whatever it happens to be is you know, and thecruelty and the absolute unrelenting attack
is driving people backwards. It is exhaustingfor people like me that have been doing this
(23:39):
work for 30 years. So those of us, it's like,you know, it's like you can only get knocked
down and get up so many times and we keep doingit, but like the scars are there. And then
when you try to get young people to be engaged,they see what they're up against. And they're
basically like, just leave me alone. I justwant to exist. And one of the things that I
(24:09):
think that we are also kind of experiencingis that there are, and this is part of, and
I can only talk, I will talk about it from theLGBTQ. sort of civil rights and social progress
movement of the fact that we continue to fightthese battles with the weapons that we've had
for 30 years. We don't, I will go out on a limband say, we don't really know how to deal with
(24:31):
this kind of stuff. Because at least we weredealing with opponents that while they did
and said awful things, were had at least somemodicum of, you know, of, um, of humanity about
it, but they don't even know. And the licensethat people have been given across social media
(24:57):
to say and do these awful things.
You look at Twitter and it's just become thecesspool of hate and everything. Who's gonna
identify themselves and say, I'm gonna try tofight back? How do you fight that? I mean,
it's like shooting bullets into a blob of, youknow, silly putty. It, you know, it doesn't
(25:20):
do anything. It just gets absorbed. Yeah, thankyou for all of that. It's really illuminating.
And I'll say, you made me think, and frankly,this is never really far from my mind, but
I remember maybe 2012 or thereabouts, therewere some feathers ruffled, if I remember.
I think it was the Clay Aiken, but it doesn'tmatter. But the guy that was like, you know,
(25:43):
women can resist the rape. And there was a tremendouspushback and the Republicans really suffered
for that. And I just remember thinking, I don'tthink I would, why I definitely wasn't intentionally
being smug. I was probably very naive, but Iremember kind of celebrating and saying, this
is the last gasp of these old, bitter whitemen and progress is just gonna render them,
(26:05):
you know, they're gonna be swept away in theirown, you know, tide pool of misery. And I think
what we saw in 2016 and what we've seen since,abetted in great part by social media was,
I think speaking only for myself, really underestimatedthe number of people out there that were disaffected
(26:27):
and angry and vulnerable to this kind of hate.And I feel like before social media, there
was the proverbial angry guy in his basement.And what social media did, I think as a former
tech analyst, I wrote a lot about The technologyand social media is gonna help democratize
content. We're gonna be able to rally. There'struth in that. What it's also done is it's
(26:50):
enabled these outcasts and miserable peopleto find their folks. And so there's this bravery
with this bizarre online anonymity. But to yourpoint, whether it's Twitter or comment sections,
op-eds, like, you know, letters to the editor,there's this vitriol that I wonder, has it
always been there? or is this being stoked byTrump, et cetera, Fox News and social media
(27:16):
is just gasoline for all of this? Yeah, I mean,I think that there's, so yeah, I fully agree.
For years, I kind of thought, just get throughthis, get through this, this new generation
of people are coming up and they have a verydifferent worldview than their parents did.
And while I think that is true, I think oneof the other things that, you know, sort of
(27:41):
opponents of social change and of progress,you know, of humanity in general have done
very well is they have still, they have beenable to fragment that group of people. And
you know, I think it's, I think some of it'sintentional. I think some of it, it just happens
by accident. But one of the things that keepspeople from engaging in the political process,
(28:06):
for example, is that they look at a politicalcandidate and let's just take Joe Biden, for
example, who arguably is the most pro LGBTQpresident that we've ever had. But because
of some of his other policies that are lessprogressive than others, you have this progressive
(28:30):
group of young people that are like, screw that.And so it's like, They don't under, I mean,
I don't want to be critical of that becauseI always want people to be firm in their beliefs
and to never compromise their integrity. Butyou have to realize sometimes that you, that
there are battles that you can fight today andthere are battles that you can fight tomorrow.
(28:54):
But that if you don't show up for the battlethat is being waged at the moment, then you
might not be around to fight the other battleslater. And so. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, calling
out my own naivete, I remember after Bush Gorein 2000, I came away from that licking my wounds
(29:16):
like so many of us and thinking, well, at leastnow the whole, both sides are equally bad.
At least we've put that to bed. Wrong. And onceagain, I mean, I wanna like high five you because
I think you've gotten really to the crux ofsomething that I really obsess about. And I
don't think that there are, I know there areanswers. I know there's no easy answers, but
(29:38):
I think what you're talking about is also kindof this notion of what stories are we telling?
And I think if your story is that from one sideof the political fence, you should be angry.
You know, the world's trying to take away yourprivilege and take away your rights. And then
the other side is we're trying to be inclusiveand we are trying to be sensitive to... issues
(30:02):
that cover a myriad of class, race, gender,it is harder to keep that big tent on the same
page. And I guess I recognize we shouldn't beon the same page, but to your point about progress
and, you know, having a sense of let's win thebattles that are right in front of our face
(30:22):
and continue to work. I think you just threadedthe needle about having hope in our younger
generation. for all the reasons we've mentioned,but also some frustration with people that
are a little bit newer to politics that arelike, if you can't make me happy, I'm not voting
at all. And it's, how do we, how do we dealwith that? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I
(30:44):
see, you know, a lot of, you know, which, whichactually really, you know, really scares me
is that, you know, you're seeing, you know,people that would normal that are engaged in
the political process, but they are desperatelylooking for a different candidate, you know,
and not recognizing that if you're not votingfor the, you know, one of the two top, you
(31:06):
know, either, either or Republican or Democrat,if you vote for somebody else, you were, you're
helping the cause that you, whichever causeit is that, that you oppose. So, you know,
I think, and you know, this is one of the thingsthat I struggle with, which is that, you know,
at my age and having done this for years andit's So bizarre for me to think about. I was
(31:31):
thinking about, what is it, it's 35 years agothat we were in college? I mean, holy crap.
But I think about how long I've been doing thiswork and I try to think about, well, who comes
after me? And I also think about, am I eventhe right person to be doing this work anymore?
(31:56):
Because- You know, maybe because I, my experienceshave been shaped by those 35 years and maybe,
you know, when I, and you know, I, I will maybecontradict myself a little bit but you know,
maybe when I sit here and I talk about the battlesthat we're fighting, maybe I shouldn't be on
the front lines anymore. You know, maybe there'sa new generation of people that need to fight
(32:19):
the battle in their own way. And maybe my wayisn't the best way to be doing this anymore.
I don't know the answer to that. But I needone of the things that I am coming to realize
and it is criticism that I hear both covertlyand overtly of people of my generation in the
(32:40):
LGBTQ movement is that we are out of touch withwhat folks need, what younger folks need and
what they want. And that we do need to... youknow, step aside or get out of their way so
that they can, you know, move forward. And,you know, part of that is, you know, I resist
(33:02):
that because I think that what I have to offerstill is valid and makes sense, and, you know,
that I bring something to the table. But I alsorecognize that, you know, that there's some
truth to that. And there could be some truthto that. I think the fact that you're capable
of recognizing that and articulating it so kindof honestly, you know, gently is the reason
(33:25):
you absolutely should be in the position you'rein. And I would say from my perspective, you
know, if this was the issue that we see, whetherit's the Supreme Court or older politicians
that no one ever wants to leave the throne,that's one issue. And I think that's always
going to be a struggle between the new generationand the older. But what I think we're both
(33:47):
talking about is, are there, you know, peoplethat are both willing and able? to fill the
shoes that you wear and assume the leadershipwith that kind of a vision and do it in an
effective way. I think that's really what isa horrifying prospect that out of all the things
you've said today, the thing that I have a tremendousempathy hearing, but also a tremendous concern
(34:12):
is this notion of exhaustion. Because I thinkthat's also part of, that's part of the strategy,
right? From the people that are, whether we'retalking about the news media, writ large, a
certain political party, those like Elon Muskand the Joe Rogans, the people that are feeding
this anger, there's a very calculated effortto just render people apathetic because when
(34:35):
people aren't paying attention or aren't engaged,that's when it's easy to move in and reclaim
these large swaths of whatever it is they want.Yeah, I will fully say that the exhaustion
thing is real. And I'm... by far not the onlyperson in this type of role across the country
(34:56):
that feels that way. And it is, I think it isa real danger,
but I think that's also kind of the point. Imean, you look at what's being thrown at us
and it's no longer like. one big rock, it'slike somebody picked up a whole bunch of pebbles
(35:20):
and threw them, you know, and so you're, youknow, you're dealing with this scattershot
thing of, okay, I've got to deal with that,I've got to deal with that, I've got to fight
back against this, I've got to fight back againstthat, and, you know, it just completely overwhelms
you, you know, whereas before, you know, inthe, you know, in the, you know, 90s, you know,
(35:43):
our big goal was marriage, right? You know,like we had this one thing and there were people
that were fighting back against that or likein the healthcare, you know, in sort of the,
in healthcare, you know, needle exchange orthings like that, that like you could, you
know, there were these goals that you had ofmaking things happen. They were kind of these
progressive, you know, if we can get these thingsto happen, we will have succeeded kind of thing.
(36:07):
And now it's like, there's, you're fightingagainst, you know, transphobia, homophobia,
all of these things that come up every singleday. And it's like following a very rapidly
bouncing ball and you can't, and it's hard tohave a huge impact on any one thing because
(36:29):
you are chasing so many different challenges.Yeah, so let me put you on the spot and say,
if you could give advice, whether it's to me,any wannabe advocate, anyone in a position
of power, what are you not seeing that you'dlike to see more of, or what advice would you
offer? And if the answer is, I don't know, becauseI kind of fall on that, but I'm just curious.
(36:52):
I want people that are listening right now thatare like, I'd like to help, or I want to get
involved. Like, what are some of the thingsthat you'd identify as? Here's how we'd make
a big difference, starting, say, with this election.Um So one of the things that I will tell you
is that frustrates me from a, and I think thisis true in the LGBTQ advocacy world and I think
(37:19):
it is true sort of in the political world ingeneral is a sense of,
what's the word I'm looking for? Apathy, butnot necessarily apathy, but
this sort of Pollyanna viewpoint that thingsare gonna go our way, that things can't be,
(37:43):
that surely people are not going to follow thisor vote for that because it is so insidious.
There's no way that can happen or that you seethese things where it's like, oh, just wait,
the blue wave is coming. And it's like, do youhave any idea how close we are to utter disaster?
(38:06):
And this unwilling, not unwillingness, thisagain, I took not to repeat myself, but this
idea that I don't think that we have fully acceptedhow awful those that oppose us can be. So like,
I mean, you look at things like when, anti-transpolicies in schools and in municipalities and
(38:35):
states, you see how twisted this next Benedictmurder came out or death came out. And how,
what originally, what, you know, and you justcan't imagine how inhumane people can be around
something like that to use it and leverage itas a political cudgel. you know, and to use
(39:02):
it and not just as a way of dividing people,but to mentally and emotionally hurt people.
You know, it's no longer just to say, we differon this. Or I think that, you know, I oppose
the fact that trans kids should be able to usethe bathroom according to their gender identity
in schools. The whole point is to dehumanizethose people and to dehumanize the people that
(39:26):
support them. or that have an open mind aboutthese things. And I don't, and as many times
as that continues to happen, I don't think thatpeople fully understand, like have grasped
that that's what we're dealing with here. Imean, I think we're using, you know, the wrong
tools to deal with, you know, to deal with thiskind of problem. So, you know, one of the things
(39:50):
that I would say to people is wake up. And Imean, that sounds kind of, you know, basic,
but it's like, I mean, occasionally I'll commenton some sort of liberal news outlet thing on
social media about, please don't get complacentabout this. Don't think that this sort of blue
(40:13):
cavalry is going to come and save us here. AndI get all this pushback, oh, you're just being
negative. You're just being, I'm like, no, I'mbeing truthful. Because I've been around long
enough to see how quickly all of this can goaway. And I know how hard it was fought for.
And I think this notion that the American peopleand the American electorate is going to somehow
(40:40):
magically wake up and be like, oh, yeah, weneed to be more accepting. We need to be more
inclusive. We need to be all of these things.And we're going to vote for people that express
that. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Again,that's a mic drop. moment from you. I think
the two things that I take away from that are,you know, spreading this sense of purposeful
(41:02):
urgency, being complacent is how we lose. WhenI talk to people that are like, you know, don't
be such a naysayer. It's like, be a naysayernow so you don't have to be for the next four
years, because we already went through this.Like, how short is your attention span? Do
you really want to spend the next four yearsreally fighting battles that are life and death
(41:24):
for so many of us? I think that's part of it.And, you know, it's been written about quite
a bit. I think what's changed, James, from whenwe were, you know, coming up and what we've
seen in our kind of decades of engagement isthat the concept of the cruelty is the point.
I think that's become this weird unifying impulse.And if, I guess if I were asked, you know,
(41:47):
someone were to turn it back on me and go, allright, Sean, you're asking all these questions.
What are you going to use as a rallying cry?And I'd say knowing that, for many of these
people who live in different states, they mightvote a certain way, but these are all even
different people. If they're unified by thecruelty is the point, then what more do we
(42:07):
need to know than to at least agree we all needto rally and make sure that doesn't become
acceptable in American society? Well, I thinkone of the things, and you and I, I want to
be careful in how I say this because I don'twant to hurt people's feelings. But you know,
(42:28):
I think that there are people that I know thatare, you know, that are, that identify themselves
as conservative, who are also not living upto, living up to their best, that to their
best selves in the sense that they will overlookthis cruelty in supporting people that align
(42:50):
with, you know, their economic policies andtheir and their sort of, you know, worldview
policies, you know, for the sake of the powerthat exists there. And that's really frustrating
to me. I mean, it's really frustrating to me.I mean, economies come and go, but human rights
do not. And, you know, and it's, you know, it'sone of those things where I'm just like, how
(43:17):
can you overlook? Like, how can you not, like,I don't, like, I just, I don't really understand
it. I mean, I try to be as respectful of itas possible because, you know, I, I know, um,
you know, I, you know, I have lots of friendsthat are sort of in that position. I have family
members that are in, you know, that are partof that group. And I'm like, you know, I don't,
(43:39):
I just, I just don't understand it. Um, and,you know, and I think, um, that getting folks
to realize. that the cruelty is the point. Andthat you've got, if you do not put a stop to
the cruelty, then we become a country and asociety that is gonna be really miserable.
(44:05):
Yeah, and to a large extent by design. Yes.And that, yeah, it's going to ultimately be,
are we, it's one of these, touchstone moments,I think for American civilization where we
have to decide, are there more of us than thereare of them as it relates to airing on the
(44:26):
side of being compassionate instead of cruel,owning that narrative and explaining like what
part of melting pot and immigrants help buildthis country and give us economic prosperity.
What part of us all being in this as a teamdo you not understand? But I think what I take
(44:48):
away from what you said, James, and it resonatesand kind of mirrors my own engagement is rather
than get overwhelmed, because winning the microbattle, I mean, that's what the election is
for, but I'm just trying to take it one conversationat a time and set modest goals, have those
handful of people that are reachable and tryto have some positive conversations and reduce
(45:11):
it. to basic things like, are you okay? I thinkit's Tom Nichols writes for the Atlantic. I
follow him on Twitter too, but he wrote somethingthe other day that was along these lines. He
was basically like asking, he's a former Republican,I guess. I don't know where he is politically
at this juncture, but he's definitely not votingfor Trump. But his concluding thought was like,
(45:33):
is this who you are? And I think maybe that'sthe question, right? Both literally and figuratively,
like that we ask our potential fellow countrymen,is this who you are? Right. Well, I think I
also try to offer folks like that within reason,some grace and to sort of tie this back to
(45:56):
the concept of maleness and masculinity is Ithink that, and this exists even within the
gay community specifically, it doesn't affectme, right? as a man, as a white man, those
things don't really impact me. And so the urgencythat they may feel around that are the priority
(46:22):
that they may place on some of those issuesand how they impact more vulnerable people
because they exist. This is something that cutsacross even socioeconomic.
lines and you see this in sort of the more economicallydisadvantaged white men that vote for Trump,
(46:50):
that they don't, the issues and the being kindto people is just not something that affects
them. It just doesn't, the anger and the crueltyis the point. And so So I try to offer some
grace in recognizing that I'm asking those peopleto care about people that they're not exposed
(47:15):
to, to people that may not be part of theirfamily, and it's certainly not part of their
own personal experience. I mean, part of whatdrives me to do this is my own personal experience,
my own identity. And so asking people to alignwith that is a lot. And I know it's a lot to
ask of folks. Yeah, I mean, I'll let you saythat. I guess I would just say, no, it isn't.
(47:42):
But I hear you. And I guess my take would be,and I try to apply this to myself first and
foremost is, voting and showing up is a personalendeavor. These conversations that we're talking
about, I think another kind of dead end we haveis, the kind of virtual signaling on social
(48:03):
media. And it's like having some personal conversationswith reachable voters or reachable human beings
is a way to advance the cause one person ata time, but you're probably not gonna win hearts
and minds by talking about how cool and collectedand admirably hip you are. I think that shuts
(48:25):
down potential dialogue instead of opening upthose doors. Yeah, but I will, and this doesn't
tie necessarily to maleness, but it does tieto, you see what has happened around the abortion
issue with women and you've seen that, you know,even conservative women who might've voted
for Republicans, you know, across the boardare now, when they realize that one thing,
(48:51):
that it now deeply impacts them, they're like,oh shit, you know, like. And so that motivation
to engage in a process or to vote or to showup to vote or to vote differently, all of a
sudden becomes very personal. So it does, thatis one of those things that does deeply impact
(49:13):
them. And it is the thing that motivates themto vote differently, to think differently,
to look around and say, oh my God, I wasn'treally paying attention to what was happening
until it was too late. Yeah, I mean, that'sit. And I think bringing it back to story and
(49:33):
how we're framing these issues is ultimately,I think the art of politics is making people
understand in a way that isn't cynical thatkindness and inclusivity are a net positive
and that usually yields everything from a betterenvironment to a better workplace to better
laws. So sometimes maybe the most simple answeris preferable and getting people to better
(49:58):
understand how their own lives will probablybe improved with some of these scenarios as
opposed to the opposite is a winning strategy.Yeah. Well, and I think for a host of reasons,
I think, so you asked me a minute ago sort of,again, what is my advice to people? I think
(50:18):
it is tell your story too. And it's sometimesas vulnerable as that can make you feel. And
I have reset personal experience with that.I think it's really, I think it's vitally important
because by doing that, I think it enables peopleto connect, to find things that they have in
(50:42):
common with you. And it's much, so while itmay, while your instinct may be to curl up
into a ball and retreat to your safe spaces,I think the more that you can be out there
to tell your story, to be visible, to talk aboutthe things that matter to you and not just
(51:07):
related to your identity, your sexual orientation,your family life, your whatever, but all the
things that make you who you are. Because eventuallyif people are gonna find things,
that they can connect to you on a human level.You know, I've been, over the last couple of
months, I've been in situations where, well,I mean, I'll just talk about that. I just went
(51:32):
into treatment for alcohol addiction. And, youknow, I was thrown into it, not thrown into,
I'm sorry, that's totally not how it happened.I was not put in a street jacket and thrown
into a rehab facility. I voluntarily went, justfor the record, not that it matters how you
got there. But I went into a place, into a situationwhere, you know, I had no idea how LGBTQ welcoming
(52:02):
this place might be or whatever. Turned outI was one, well, at one point, I was the only
out gay person there, you know, in this placewith a hundred other people. you know, and
I was myself, I was out, I told my story, Ireferred to people, you know, my, you know,
to my spouse and my same sex spouse and allof these other things and treated it just as
(52:24):
the, the most normal thing. And there were peoplethere from all walks of life. I mean, literally
it is, you've got, you know, people who arephysicians down to people who, you know, are
in there because if they get out, they go backto jail for, you know, whatever. And all races,
all backgrounds, all... you know, everything.And the reason that we all got along is because
(52:50):
we had one thing in common, which was addiction.And we had, and remarkably across all of those
lines, and I don't mean to use addiction asthe thing that ties you, but I'm getting to
the point, which is that there was a commonalityin all of our experiences there that didn't
matter how you identify and that bound us togetherand enabled us to have open and honest conversations
(53:16):
with each other. And so, you know, I think thatthere's real truth, real value in telling your
truth and to being, and to sharing your storywith people. Amen. You know, James, I'll just
say that, you know, I obviously am familiarwith your story. I am both aware of and inspired
(53:38):
by, and I think you're- you're really droppingsome huge truths on this whole notion. I couldn't
agree more about how telling stories is everything.It can break down barriers, it can invite conversation,
and it's the opposite of shutting down and lackingengagement. And I think you also get at a big
(54:00):
thing, which is when we find ourselves fightinga similar battle, of course we can see... commonality
and common goals and find solidarity. I thinkthe bigger issue that we all have, the bigger
battle is that we all need to recognize as humanbeings, we all are in the same fight. And it
(54:22):
is to leave the world better than we found itand to make it a little more kind instead of
a little less kind. But boy, certainly I wantto say your story, right? We talked about this
before we came on the air. Your stories continueto evolve. like all of ours do. But I think
what I've always admired about you, James, ispartly by inevitable, the reality of who you
(54:46):
are, but circumstance and a combination of factors.Your story has tended to organize and inspire
and motivate people. So you can't be definedby one act or one thing, but the common theme,
as I've known you through the decades is, thisinspiring positive change. So it's incredibly
(55:10):
worthwhile for me. It's a great opportunitythat I welcome to be able to share this knowledge
and wisdom and compassion with anyone that'slistening. I don't know what else to say other
than we should check back in maybe as the electionwinds down and check each other, measure progress
and certainly a post-mortem after hopefullygood things happen in November. But... Um,
(55:35):
more to come, but I will certainly be happyto leave you with some final words of, of advice
or, or anything you want to leave us with. Oh,wow. Um, that's kind of putting me in a spot
here. Um, no, I mean, I, I just, I, you know,I just, well, first of all, so thank you for
(55:55):
this opportunity. It's, it's great to have thisconversation with you. It's not unlike the
conversations that we used to have in collegeat all. And I always really appreciated that
you brought that to my college experience ofbeing able to have these kind of intellectual,
very thought-provoking conversations. And you'vemade me think about a lot of things, but yeah,
(56:21):
I just, I mean, it sounds seriously stupid,but just be good people, just be kind, be open-minded.
this concept that, and don't be afraid of thingsyou don't understand. Look at it as an opportunity
to learn something. Whether that be about maleness,gender identity, sexual orientation, whatever
(56:44):
it happens to be, don't be afraid of the other.And it's because it's not, there's a lot of
beauty in having experiences with and, withpeople and with people and concepts that you
are not familiar with. I mean, what a greatnote to end on. Wise words, beautiful words
(57:07):
from a very wise and beautiful man. James, tobe continued as always, but again, thank you
for coming. There's so much here for peopleto absorb and be inspired by. You have my enduring
gratitude. Folks, thanks for checking out SomeThings Considered. To find out more, including
(57:28):
how to be a guest, you can go to SeanMurphy.net.And remember, we are obsessed with story and
celebrating creativity. We want to advocatefor the arts and creativity and compassion
by any means necessary. Drop us a line, getinvolved, be a good person, and support our
creatives and people who are doing the goodwork in the trenches, who make our lives much
(57:51):
more worth living. We'll see you next time.
Thanks for tuning in to Some Things Considered.Find out more, including how to be a guest
at SeanMurphy.net. Reminder, we are obsessedwith story and celebrating creativity. Also,
we're here to advocate for the arts by any meansnecessary. Drop us a line, get involved, and
(58:17):
support our creatives who are the lifebloodof our culture. I'm Sean Murphy, see you on
the next episode of Some Things Considered.
Welcome to Some Things Considered, the podcastwhere we are obsessed with story. We celebrate
creativity and we talk to cool people to findout what makes them tick. I'm your host, Sean
Murphy. I'm an author. I direct the Center forStory at Shenandoah University and I run the
non-profit 1455 Lit Arts. For more about meand what I do, check out seanmurphy.net.
(00:35):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Some Things Considered.This is the podcast where we are obsessed with
creativity. We love to talk to cool people andfind out what makes them tick. I'm your host,
Sean Murphy. I'm an author, I direct the Centerfor Story at Shenandoah University, and I run
(00:56):
the nonprofit 1455 Lit Arts. For more aboutme and what I do, you can check that out at
seanmurphy.net. But what I like to say and whatI savor about these various roles that kind
of interact and carry over is that they enableme to meet and talk to and at times like today
reconnect with amazing human beings. One ofthem is with me now. I've known him and we
(01:20):
will talk about this for decades, even thoughwe both look like we're in our 20s. So just
deal with that. My good friend and a constantsource of inspiration to me, James Milner,
let me read his bio. and you'll see why I'mso excited to talk to him. James is the director
of VA Pride at Diversity Richmond and an LGBTQadvocate out of Central Virginia, i.e. Richmond.
(01:47):
He has an extensive and successful backgroundin nonprofit management, corporate and healthcare
communications, fundraising and event planning.His superpowers include being a connector of
people, organizations and ideas. And folks,trust me, that barely scratches the surface.
But James, great to see you, and thanks so muchfor being here. This is such a pleasure, Sean.
(02:11):
Thank you so much. So look, I'll try not todo the old thing that we always fall back into
and tell old stories because we're trying totalk about some current events, but I'm sure
folks listening will get a flavor of our friendshipbecause we just can't help but go there. But.
As I told you a few weeks ago, when you weregracious enough to accept my invitation, there's
(02:32):
never an inopportune time to talk to you, especiallyconsidering what you do, its relevance to like
our day to day, and shining a light on how inspiredpeople can tell their stories, that's always
valuable. But for me right now, especially inan election year, I do feel a sense of urgency
(02:55):
to start taking some deeper dives on the, verybroad topic of maleness, like with a capital
M. And to me, without wanting to either oversimplifyor over-complicate it, I think this notion
of maleness and especially toxic masculinity,which I think you have to kind of toxic masculinity,
it's at once totally discussed, and yet I don'tthink it's discussed in ways that are positive
(03:20):
enough or go deep enough into what is goingon behind these pathologies. So, I'd love to
start there if it's okay. And just ask you rightout of the gate, if I were to say to you, James,
how do you define maleness? And how has it differedin the decades we've known each other? Oh,
wow. How would I define maleness? Well, I mean,there's certainly the biological definitions
(03:49):
of it, correct? Right. And, but, you know, Ithink... And I think you can look at it a number
of different ways. At least I think you canlook at it from the perspective of societal
roles of men and the roles of men in societyand sort of those historical traditional roles
that men are expected to play, the protector,the provider, the sort of dominant figure in
(04:18):
society. But it's really interesting you know,as a gay man, you know, my definition, a gay
man with blue fingernails at the moment. I'mnot gonna talk about masculinity. Hell yeah.
But, you know, I think, you know, I had to redefinewhat, when I came out and when, and as through
(04:45):
my journey as a gay man, what maleness meantto me was a very different thing than I think
it might be for, cisgender heterosexual men,especially experiencing the same sex attraction
to other men. So the role of men in my lifeis vastly different than it might be for people
(05:10):
who are not gay. There is, you know, but therehas, you know, when I look back, on my life
and the role of men in my life, whether it bemy father, my brother, my fraternity brothers,
all of whom were sort of in that traditionalmale role for me, you know, of heterosexual
(05:36):
cisgender straight men. And then coming outand realizing that there's a whole other definition
of maleness within the gay community, wherethese people became my partners, my sexual
partners, You know, my friends in differentways, and with a tie that bound us in a way
(05:57):
that I was not connected to other men priorto me coming out. I don't know if that really
answers your question, but that's kind of arambling answer, but that's- No, no, it's perfect
and appreciated. I kind of wanted to set thetone with, and I think you hit on the key thing.
I didn't have any expectations from your answerother than I think the key notion to me is,
(06:20):
How do we define maleness? It's like you gotall day. It can't be, and it shouldn't be reduced
to how big your muscles are, or any other numberof ridiculous stereotypes. But I think one
of the things that makes your personal storyand your journey so interesting and applicable
is that you not only have kind of navigateda 20th century old school reality, navigated
(06:46):
that successfully, come through. stronger, happier,healthier, but then you made it a point, you
were drawn to advocacy and have now dedicatedyears to working nonprofit, raising awareness.
Talk a little bit about the intersection, right,between your personal journey and your professional
journey and how you kind of see your malenessor your individuality through these roles.
(07:14):
Well, so... the intersectionality of my malenessin these roles. So,
so one of the things that I think, you know,where this truly intersects is the definition
of male privilege and what that means. And Idon't think that, I think that is universal
(07:36):
across sexual orientation lines one way or theother, especially being a white man. And so
privilege exists within the sort of heteronormativedefinition of maleness, but it also definitely
exists within the gay community as well. Andthe more that I delved into the advocacy work,
(08:06):
the more I recognized that, and frankly, itwasn't even, well, so the more I delved into
the advocacy work, the more I realized thatthere comes tremendous power with being a white
man. But also, this notion that it just insulatesyou from so much, and even within the straight
(08:32):
community, even as a gay man, the fact thatI'm white and male also makes a difference
in that, when I show up in places, um wherethat are that are more heterosexual um and
so I think that there is you know there's youknow society views men as you know in very
(08:57):
different white you know views men um you knowin a very powerful as very powerful figures
and um you know I think that translates acrosseverything that I do. Yeah, and I think you
hit the nail on the head, I think, as it relatesto what I kind of teed up at the beginning.
(09:17):
In an election year, you can't open a newspaperor a news site or really any cultural online
source without at least seeing a reference towoke, to masculinity, to the notion of these
angry men in cells, the whole thing. So I'mcurious. How do you deal with advocacy, but
(09:43):
also kind of grappling with, even as a whitemale, people that somehow seem to think that
their historical privilege is being taken away?I think that's at the root of some of this
disconnect and anger. And some of us see itvery clearly, but on the other hand, the fact
(10:03):
that it's such an issue, clearly a lot of peoplearen't seeing it clearly. Yeah, I mean, I think,
to think about it, when you said the end cells,and I think about some of it, especially some
of the images from January 6th of these men,this rage that existed among them. And where
(10:26):
does that come from? And what is it that's drivingthat? I mean, it is... And you're right. I
mean, the fact, I mean, still, I mean, evenas much progress as we have made of, I think
becoming more inclusive and aware of the roleand the importance of women in our society
(10:47):
and our politics and everything else, that isstill very much dominated by men. And, you
know, it's, but it's, and I think, you know,some of that, is it's interesting because you
see the power that women have when they vote.It's not white men that are winning elections
(11:11):
for people. It is women that are driving ourelectorate right now. And I think men feel
that sort of power that they've always had,that grip that they've always had in politics
on social issues and everything else. slippingaway and they are, you know, you can just see
(11:35):
the desperation that they have in trying tohold on to it. And, you know, this concept
of wokeness that, you know, somehow that impliesa weakness. But those terms are coming from,
you know, from mostly men that are just horriblyIt's ironic in the sense that I think this
(12:02):
attack on quote unquote, woke-ness is emanatingfrom a place of weakness, from a place of fear.
To me, the concept of being woke is they wannadefine it actually requires a whole lot more
strength, a whole lot more intelligence, a wholelot more effort than it does to not be woke.
(12:27):
Yeah, and once again, I think you've nailed,you know, the crux of the matter, which is,
yes, it's coming from a place of insecurity,fear, how narrative is used in defining these
stereotypes of gender and how we view ourselvesor how traditional roles have been established
by media and movies in the entertainment industry.And, you know, I think looking at it from a
(12:52):
political lens, it's always easier to get peopleriled up. and make them feel like they're special.
And I think the one thing that I struggle withwhen I look at the side that is promoting inclusivity
and fighting against or pushing back againstwhite straight men trying to exert their control
(13:14):
and their dominance is rather than necessarilyshaming people, might we try... re-engaging
with more positive. So re-evaluating and redefiningwhat a man is and showing how things like wokeness
and DEI are very integral to the whole Americanexperiment as we define it as a melting pot,
(13:40):
e pluribus unum, all of that. I don't know ifwe've all done a good enough job actually recreating
the story to our advantage. Am I being too harshon? Cause I know it's a lot harder to clean
up messes than it is to create them, but I thinkwe could all do a better job of owning that
narrative. Oh, for sure. I mean, I think Sean,one of the things that is driving that, this
(14:10):
sort of rage and this desperation from thatone particular part of society and that...
the one part of our political spectrum is thefact that we are actually trying to redefine
what maleness is. And it's the idea that mencan't be sensitive, that men, and this is something,
(14:38):
I mean, it's very easy for people to sort ofsay that, oh, gay men aren't real men because
they're feminine or they're sissies. I mean,like, but even before you- even little kids
before they grow up and before they even understandthe word gay or the word queer, you were called
a sissy when you were little. If you exhibitedany sort of feminine traits or you were emotional
(15:01):
or you got caught crying on the playground orsomething like that. And in popular culture
and in the media, we're starting to see moreof I think we're starting to see more, you
(15:21):
know, a broader spectrum of what it means tobe a man. And that's what's really driving
this, you know, this really, really fierce oppositionto anything that challenges the notion of the
man is ahead of a family, the man is the breadwinner,the man is the strong person, the man is the
(15:44):
hunter, the man is the provider. You know, allof those types of things. I mean, I grew up,
you know, in a relatively rural area with adad that was all of those things. I mean, he
was the quintessential man. He was a gentleman.He was a hunter. He was a provider. He was
all of the things. You know, if you looked upthe definition of what the perfect man would
(16:10):
be, you know, you can kind of envision someonelike my father in that.
And I could tell as I was growing up, the disappointmentand I think the fear that he had when he realized
that I was not going to be that same definitionof man. Yeah, and I think that opens up kind
(16:36):
of this dual pathology which is we've got people.whether it's cynically or myopically, it's
a bit of both, and cynically wanting us to getback to when America was great. And what we've
seen is that even in the quote unquote goodold days, these men were not taught to express
(16:58):
feelings, were not taught to communicate inan honest and open way. So there was a lot
of this desperation and anger that has alwaysbeen located. with the head of the household,
the traditional male role. So A, why would wewant to ever go back to that? But B, I think
that opens up this weird place we're in nowwhere I feel like generally speaking, the younger
(17:21):
generation, there's an empathy that we completelylacked and there's an awareness and a kind
of a general acceptance of others. And that'sprogress. But where in our childhood, there
wasn't a lot of media noise or really politicalnoise other than like the far right of worrying
(17:44):
about this stuff. And now there's one politicalparty that that's all they seem to be obsessed
with. So, I mean, it's like we were making stridesand yet the battle gets more difficult every
day. And I think that's what I'm personallytrying to wrap my head around. I know it's
gonna be, you know, all progress is gradual.Small victories add up to big victories, but...
(18:07):
How do you view that from your purview? I mean,you just articulated your upbringing and that
disconnect, but what are you seeing, especiallyin your work with like the younger generation
and how they're dealing with this? I mean, it's180 degrees from how it was when I grew up.
(18:28):
I mean, even with the folks that I know thatare conservative, and I... definitely have
a clear delineation between people that areconservative and people that are, right-wing
nut jobs, sorry. But I mean, there are peoplethat are conservative and people that,
(18:53):
the acceptance of
a non-traditional gender role across the board,whether it be for men or women is, much more
is much greater than it ever used to be. Andeven in the 30 years that I've been doing this
(19:15):
work, seeing that evolve, I mean, and the wholeconcept that is such this hot topic, which
is at least you would think it was the mostimportant thing in the world, this concept
of gender and gender identity and everythingelse. I mean, you would think that you know,
it was, we were on the verge of nuclear warand what the world was gonna end tomorrow,
(19:37):
the way that it, that issue keeps coming tothe surface is the thing that people are most
worried about. And what I know about young peopleis that they don't care. They simply don't
care. You know, like I, you know, one of thethings that I do and like, and I, it's really
interesting. I went to a recovery meeting atVCU the other day where you know, I was by
(20:04):
far the oldest person in the room and I wentto it just largely because it was convenient
and at a time that I could do it. And, you know,I walked in and it was like, I realized that
A, there was no, it seemed like there was nodefined gender within that room. I mean, there
were people of all different gender identities,gender expressions, and certainly no, you know,
(20:31):
no really, and, no real defined like, you know,manly men or girly girls or whatever happened
to be there. It was, so, and that's, those wereall younger people, 20 somethings, early 30
somethings. And everybody just, you know, itdidn't matter to people. Yeah. It just, it's
just becoming a non-issue for folks, I think.Yeah, I mean, I think just looking at, you
(20:58):
know, my stepkids, my niece and nephew, thekids I teach, the undergrad level, I think
it's relatively safe to say, at least in moreurban and diverse areas, that battle has been
won, the inclusivity, the fluidity of identity,the embracing of, I don't have to wear, I mean,
(21:20):
we grew up, right, at a time where you worea polo or a eyes on, these things were critical
to fit in. One of the reasons I think the BreakfastClub was so- it captured the zeitgeist because
it was these different types all put together.I think that that's kind of the new normal
where in our day, conformity was the way tokind of blend in and succeed. So I guess on
(21:44):
one hand, and I think we've been circling aroundthis, I want to unequivocally celebrate the
progress that's been made. But I'm curious,so when you go to work every day or looking
at it on a year-to-year basis, what are thebig struggles in the work you do, what are
the biggest challenges as it relates to either,you know, equipping the younger folks to feel
(22:08):
and find their voice, or is the issue more,we got to deal with the old people who still
vote and are totally resisting any kind of change?You know, so I think that there is reason to
celebrate progress, but I think that the progressthat we have... achieved is remarkably fragile.
(22:31):
I do not think that the progress that we havemade into a more welcoming and inclusive society
is by any means a settled issue. And I thinkthat there is a real danger that it is gonna
go backwards. And the reason that it is so perilousis because of the fear that has now been instilled
(22:52):
in people. So it's not a matter of you know,a like, you know, one state having certain
laws that are more discriminatory towards acertain group of people than others. It is
now this constant and unending barrage of attack,and the distortion of the truth about what
(23:16):
it means to be an other, you know, whether that'sa black person, a gay person, a trans person,
whatever it happens to be is you know, and thecruelty and the absolute unrelenting attack
is driving people backwards. It is exhaustingfor people like me that have been doing this
(23:39):
work for 30 years. So those of us, it's like,you know, it's like you can only get knocked
down and get up so many times and we keep doingit, but like the scars are there. And then
when you try to get young people to be engaged,they see what they're up against. And they're
basically like, just leave me alone. I justwant to exist. And one of the things that I
(24:09):
think that we are also kind of experiencingis that there are, and this is part of, and
I can only talk, I will talk about it from theLGBTQ. sort of civil rights and social progress
movement of the fact that we continue to fightthese battles with the weapons that we've had
for 30 years. We don't, I will go out on a limband say, we don't really know how to deal with
(24:31):
this kind of stuff. Because at least we weredealing with opponents that while they did
and said awful things, were had at least somemodicum of, you know, of, um, of humanity about
it, but they don't even know. And the licensethat people have been given across social media
(24:57):
to say and do these awful things.
You look at Twitter and it's just become thecesspool of hate and everything. Who's gonna
identify themselves and say, I'm gonna try tofight back? How do you fight that? I mean,
it's like shooting bullets into a blob of, youknow, silly putty. It, you know, it doesn't
(25:20):
do anything. It just gets absorbed. Yeah, thankyou for all of that. It's really illuminating.
And I'll say, you made me think, and frankly,this is never really far from my mind, but
I remember maybe 2012 or thereabouts, therewere some feathers ruffled, if I remember.
I think it was the Clay Aiken, but it doesn'tmatter. But the guy that was like, you know,
(25:43):
women can resist the rape. And there was a tremendouspushback and the Republicans really suffered
for that. And I just remember thinking, I don'tthink I would, why I definitely wasn't intentionally
being smug. I was probably very naive, but Iremember kind of celebrating and saying, this
is the last gasp of these old, bitter whitemen and progress is just gonna render them,
(26:05):
you know, they're gonna be swept away in theirown, you know, tide pool of misery. And I think
what we saw in 2016 and what we've seen since,abetted in great part by social media was,
I think speaking only for myself, really underestimatedthe number of people out there that were disaffected
(26:27):
and angry and vulnerable to this kind of hate.And I feel like before social media, there
was the proverbial angry guy in his basement.And what social media did, I think as a former
tech analyst, I wrote a lot about The technologyand social media is gonna help democratize
content. We're gonna be able to rally. There'struth in that. What it's also done is it's
(26:50):
enabled these outcasts and miserable peopleto find their folks. And so there's this bravery
with this bizarre online anonymity. But to yourpoint, whether it's Twitter or comment sections,
op-eds, like, you know, letters to the editor,there's this vitriol that I wonder, has it
always been there? or is this being stoked byTrump, et cetera, Fox News and social media
(27:16):
is just gasoline for all of this? Yeah, I mean,I think that there's, so yeah, I fully agree.
For years, I kind of thought, just get throughthis, get through this, this new generation
of people are coming up and they have a verydifferent worldview than their parents did.
And while I think that is true, I think oneof the other things that, you know, sort of
(27:41):
opponents of social change and of progress,you know, of humanity in general have done
very well is they have still, they have beenable to fragment that group of people. And
you know, I think it's, I think some of it'sintentional. I think some of it, it just happens
by accident. But one of the things that keepspeople from engaging in the political process,
(28:06):
for example, is that they look at a politicalcandidate and let's just take Joe Biden, for
example, who arguably is the most pro LGBTQpresident that we've ever had. But because
of some of his other policies that are lessprogressive than others, you have this progressive
(28:30):
group of young people that are like, screw that.And so it's like, They don't under, I mean,
I don't want to be critical of that becauseI always want people to be firm in their beliefs
and to never compromise their integrity. Butyou have to realize sometimes that you, that
there are battles that you can fight today andthere are battles that you can fight tomorrow.
(28:54):
But that if you don't show up for the battlethat is being waged at the moment, then you
might not be around to fight the other battleslater. And so. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, calling
out my own naivete, I remember after Bush Gorein 2000, I came away from that licking my wounds
(29:16):
like so many of us and thinking, well, at leastnow the whole, both sides are equally bad.
At least we've put that to bed. Wrong. And onceagain, I mean, I wanna like high five you because
I think you've gotten really to the crux ofsomething that I really obsess about. And I
don't think that there are, I know there areanswers. I know there's no easy answers, but
(29:38):
I think what you're talking about is also kindof this notion of what stories are we telling?
And I think if your story is that from one sideof the political fence, you should be angry.
You know, the world's trying to take away yourprivilege and take away your rights. And then
the other side is we're trying to be inclusiveand we are trying to be sensitive to... issues
(30:02):
that cover a myriad of class, race, gender,it is harder to keep that big tent on the same
page. And I guess I recognize we shouldn't beon the same page, but to your point about progress
and, you know, having a sense of let's win thebattles that are right in front of our face
(30:22):
and continue to work. I think you just threadedthe needle about having hope in our younger
generation. for all the reasons we've mentioned,but also some frustration with people that
are a little bit newer to politics that arelike, if you can't make me happy, I'm not voting
at all. And it's, how do we, how do we dealwith that? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I
(30:44):
see, you know, a lot of, you know, which, whichactually really, you know, really scares me
is that, you know, you're seeing, you know,people that would normal that are engaged in
the political process, but they are desperatelylooking for a different candidate, you know,
and not recognizing that if you're not votingfor the, you know, one of the two top, you
(31:06):
know, either, either or Republican or Democrat,if you vote for somebody else, you were, you're
helping the cause that you, whichever causeit is that, that you oppose. So, you know,
I think, and you know, this is one of the thingsthat I struggle with, which is that, you know,
at my age and having done this for years andit's So bizarre for me to think about. I was
(31:31):
thinking about, what is it, it's 35 years agothat we were in college? I mean, holy crap.
But I think about how long I've been doing thiswork and I try to think about, well, who comes
after me? And I also think about, am I eventhe right person to be doing this work anymore?
(31:56):
Because- You know, maybe because I, my experienceshave been shaped by those 35 years and maybe,
you know, when I, and you know, I, I will maybecontradict myself a little bit but you know,
maybe when I sit here and I talk about the battlesthat we're fighting, maybe I shouldn't be on
the front lines anymore. You know, maybe there'sa new generation of people that need to fight
(32:19):
the battle in their own way. And maybe my wayisn't the best way to be doing this anymore.
I don't know the answer to that. But I needone of the things that I am coming to realize
and it is criticism that I hear both covertlyand overtly of people of my generation in the
(32:40):
LGBTQ movement is that we are out of touch withwhat folks need, what younger folks need and
what they want. And that we do need to... youknow, step aside or get out of their way so
that they can, you know, move forward. And,you know, part of that is, you know, I resist
(33:02):
that because I think that what I have to offerstill is valid and makes sense, and, you know,
that I bring something to the table. But I alsorecognize that, you know, that there's some
truth to that. And there could be some truthto that. I think the fact that you're capable
of recognizing that and articulating it so kindof honestly, you know, gently is the reason
(33:25):
you absolutely should be in the position you'rein. And I would say from my perspective, you
know, if this was the issue that we see, whetherit's the Supreme Court or older politicians
that no one ever wants to leave the throne,that's one issue. And I think that's always
going to be a struggle between the new generationand the older. But what I think we're both
(33:47):
talking about is, are there, you know, peoplethat are both willing and able? to fill the
shoes that you wear and assume the leadershipwith that kind of a vision and do it in an
effective way. I think that's really what isa horrifying prospect that out of all the things
you've said today, the thing that I have a tremendousempathy hearing, but also a tremendous concern
(34:12):
is this notion of exhaustion. Because I thinkthat's also part of, that's part of the strategy,
right? From the people that are, whether we'retalking about the news media, writ large, a
certain political party, those like Elon Muskand the Joe Rogans, the people that are feeding
this anger, there's a very calculated effortto just render people apathetic because when
(34:35):
people aren't paying attention or aren't engaged,that's when it's easy to move in and reclaim
these large swaths of whatever it is they want.Yeah, I will fully say that the exhaustion
thing is real. And I'm... by far not the onlyperson in this type of role across the country
(34:56):
that feels that way. And it is, I think it isa real danger,
but I think that's also kind of the point. Imean, you look at what's being thrown at us
and it's no longer like. one big rock, it'slike somebody picked up a whole bunch of pebbles
(35:20):
and threw them, you know, and so you're, youknow, you're dealing with this scattershot
thing of, okay, I've got to deal with that,I've got to deal with that, I've got to fight
back against this, I've got to fight back againstthat, and, you know, it just completely overwhelms
you, you know, whereas before, you know, inthe, you know, in the, you know, 90s, you know,
(35:43):
our big goal was marriage, right? You know,like we had this one thing and there were people
that were fighting back against that or likein the healthcare, you know, in sort of the,
in healthcare, you know, needle exchange orthings like that, that like you could, you
know, there were these goals that you had ofmaking things happen. They were kind of these
progressive, you know, if we can get these thingsto happen, we will have succeeded kind of thing.
(36:07):
And now it's like, there's, you're fightingagainst, you know, transphobia, homophobia,
all of these things that come up every singleday. And it's like following a very rapidly
bouncing ball and you can't, and it's hard tohave a huge impact on any one thing because
(36:29):
you are chasing so many different challenges.Yeah, so let me put you on the spot and say,
if you could give advice, whether it's to me,any wannabe advocate, anyone in a position
of power, what are you not seeing that you'dlike to see more of, or what advice would you
offer? And if the answer is, I don't know, becauseI kind of fall on that, but I'm just curious.
(36:52):
I want people that are listening right now thatare like, I'd like to help, or I want to get
involved. Like, what are some of the thingsthat you'd identify as? Here's how we'd make
a big difference, starting, say, with this election.Um So one of the things that I will tell you
is that frustrates me from a, and I think thisis true in the LGBTQ advocacy world and I think
(37:19):
it is true sort of in the political world ingeneral is a sense of,
what's the word I'm looking for? Apathy, butnot necessarily apathy, but
this sort of Pollyanna viewpoint that thingsare gonna go our way, that things can't be,
(37:43):
that surely people are not going to follow thisor vote for that because it is so insidious.
There's no way that can happen or that you seethese things where it's like, oh, just wait,
the blue wave is coming. And it's like, do youhave any idea how close we are to utter disaster?
(38:06):
And this unwilling, not unwillingness, thisagain, I took not to repeat myself, but this
idea that I don't think that we have fully acceptedhow awful those that oppose us can be. So like,
I mean, you look at things like when, anti-transpolicies in schools and in municipalities and
(38:35):
states, you see how twisted this next Benedictmurder came out or death came out. And how,
what originally, what, you know, and you justcan't imagine how inhumane people can be around
something like that to use it and leverage itas a political cudgel. you know, and to use
(39:02):
it and not just as a way of dividing people,but to mentally and emotionally hurt people.
You know, it's no longer just to say, we differon this. Or I think that, you know, I oppose
the fact that trans kids should be able to usethe bathroom according to their gender identity
in schools. The whole point is to dehumanizethose people and to dehumanize the people that
(39:26):
support them. or that have an open mind aboutthese things. And I don't, and as many times
as that continues to happen, I don't think thatpeople fully understand, like have grasped
that that's what we're dealing with here. Imean, I think we're using, you know, the wrong
tools to deal with, you know, to deal with thiskind of problem. So, you know, one of the things
(39:50):
that I would say to people is wake up. And Imean, that sounds kind of, you know, basic,
but it's like, I mean, occasionally I'll commenton some sort of liberal news outlet thing on
social media about, please don't get complacentabout this. Don't think that this sort of blue
(40:13):
cavalry is going to come and save us here. AndI get all this pushback, oh, you're just being
negative. You're just being, I'm like, no, I'mbeing truthful. Because I've been around long
enough to see how quickly all of this can goaway. And I know how hard it was fought for.
And I think this notion that the American peopleand the American electorate is going to somehow
(40:40):
magically wake up and be like, oh, yeah, weneed to be more accepting. We need to be more
inclusive. We need to be all of these things.And we're going to vote for people that express
that. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Again,that's a mic drop. moment from you. I think
the two things that I take away from that are,you know, spreading this sense of purposeful
(41:02):
urgency, being complacent is how we lose. WhenI talk to people that are like, you know, don't
be such a naysayer. It's like, be a naysayernow so you don't have to be for the next four
years, because we already went through this.Like, how short is your attention span? Do
you really want to spend the next four yearsreally fighting battles that are life and death
(41:24):
for so many of us? I think that's part of it.And, you know, it's been written about quite
a bit. I think what's changed, James, from whenwe were, you know, coming up and what we've
seen in our kind of decades of engagement isthat the concept of the cruelty is the point.
I think that's become this weird unifying impulse.And if, I guess if I were asked, you know,
(41:47):
someone were to turn it back on me and go, allright, Sean, you're asking all these questions.
What are you going to use as a rallying cry?And I'd say knowing that, for many of these
people who live in different states, they mightvote a certain way, but these are all even
different people. If they're unified by thecruelty is the point, then what more do we
(42:07):
need to know than to at least agree we all needto rally and make sure that doesn't become
acceptable in American society? Well, I thinkone of the things, and you and I, I want to
be careful in how I say this because I don'twant to hurt people's feelings. But you know,
(42:28):
I think that there are people that I know thatare, you know, that are, that identify themselves
as conservative, who are also not living upto, living up to their best, that to their
best selves in the sense that they will overlookthis cruelty in supporting people that align
(42:50):
with, you know, their economic policies andtheir and their sort of, you know, worldview
policies, you know, for the sake of the powerthat exists there. And that's really frustrating
to me. I mean, it's really frustrating to me.I mean, economies come and go, but human rights
do not. And, you know, and it's, you know, it'sone of those things where I'm just like, how
(43:17):
can you overlook? Like, how can you not, like,I don't, like, I just, I don't really understand
it. I mean, I try to be as respectful of itas possible because, you know, I, I know, um,
you know, I, you know, I have lots of friendsthat are sort of in that position. I have family
members that are in, you know, that are partof that group. And I'm like, you know, I don't,
(43:39):
I just, I just don't understand it. Um, and,you know, and I think, um, that getting folks
to realize. that the cruelty is the point. Andthat you've got, if you do not put a stop to
the cruelty, then we become a country and asociety that is gonna be really miserable.
(44:05):
Yeah, and to a large extent by design. Yes.And that, yeah, it's going to ultimately be,
are we, it's one of these, touchstone moments,I think for American civilization where we
have to decide, are there more of us than thereare of them as it relates to airing on the
(44:26):
side of being compassionate instead of cruel,owning that narrative and explaining like what
part of melting pot and immigrants help buildthis country and give us economic prosperity.
What part of us all being in this as a teamdo you not understand? But I think what I take
(44:48):
away from what you said, James, and it resonatesand kind of mirrors my own engagement is rather
than get overwhelmed, because winning the microbattle, I mean, that's what the election is
for, but I'm just trying to take it one conversationat a time and set modest goals, have those
handful of people that are reachable and tryto have some positive conversations and reduce
(45:11):
it. to basic things like, are you okay? I thinkit's Tom Nichols writes for the Atlantic. I
follow him on Twitter too, but he wrote somethingthe other day that was along these lines. He
was basically like asking, he's a former Republican,I guess. I don't know where he is politically
at this juncture, but he's definitely not votingfor Trump. But his concluding thought was like,
(45:33):
is this who you are? And I think maybe that'sthe question, right? Both literally and figuratively,
like that we ask our potential fellow countrymen,is this who you are? Right. Well, I think I
also try to offer folks like that within reason,some grace and to sort of tie this back to
(45:56):
the concept of maleness and masculinity is Ithink that, and this exists even within the
gay community specifically, it doesn't affectme, right? as a man, as a white man, those
things don't really impact me. And so the urgencythat they may feel around that are the priority
(46:22):
that they may place on some of those issuesand how they impact more vulnerable people
because they exist. This is something that cutsacross even socioeconomic.
lines and you see this in sort of the more economicallydisadvantaged white men that vote for Trump,
(46:50):
that they don't, the issues and the being kindto people is just not something that affects
them. It just doesn't, the anger and the crueltyis the point. And so So I try to offer some
grace in recognizing that I'm asking those peopleto care about people that they're not exposed
(47:15):
to, to people that may not be part of theirfamily, and it's certainly not part of their
own personal experience. I mean, part of whatdrives me to do this is my own personal experience,
my own identity. And so asking people to alignwith that is a lot. And I know it's a lot to
ask of folks. Yeah, I mean, I'll let you saythat. I guess I would just say, no, it isn't.
(47:42):
But I hear you. And I guess my take would be,and I try to apply this to myself first and
foremost is, voting and showing up is a personalendeavor. These conversations that we're talking
about, I think another kind of dead end we haveis, the kind of virtual signaling on social
(48:03):
media. And it's like having some personal conversationswith reachable voters or reachable human beings
is a way to advance the cause one person ata time, but you're probably not gonna win hearts
and minds by talking about how cool and collectedand admirably hip you are. I think that shuts
(48:25):
down potential dialogue instead of opening upthose doors. Yeah, but I will, and this doesn't
tie necessarily to maleness, but it does tieto, you see what has happened around the abortion
issue with women and you've seen that, you know,even conservative women who might've voted
for Republicans, you know, across the boardare now, when they realize that one thing,
(48:51):
that it now deeply impacts them, they're like,oh shit, you know, like. And so that motivation
to engage in a process or to vote or to showup to vote or to vote differently, all of a
sudden becomes very personal. So it does, thatis one of those things that does deeply impact
(49:13):
them. And it is the thing that motivates themto vote differently, to think differently,
to look around and say, oh my God, I wasn'treally paying attention to what was happening
until it was too late. Yeah, I mean, that'sit. And I think bringing it back to story and
(49:33):
how we're framing these issues is ultimately,I think the art of politics is making people
understand in a way that isn't cynical thatkindness and inclusivity are a net positive
and that usually yields everything from a betterenvironment to a better workplace to better
laws. So sometimes maybe the most simple answeris preferable and getting people to better
(49:58):
understand how their own lives will probablybe improved with some of these scenarios as
opposed to the opposite is a winning strategy.Yeah. Well, and I think for a host of reasons,
I think, so you asked me a minute ago sort of,again, what is my advice to people? I think
(50:18):
it is tell your story too. And it's sometimesas vulnerable as that can make you feel. And
I have reset personal experience with that.I think it's really, I think it's vitally important
because by doing that, I think it enables peopleto connect, to find things that they have in
(50:42):
common with you. And it's much, so while itmay, while your instinct may be to curl up
into a ball and retreat to your safe spaces,I think the more that you can be out there
to tell your story, to be visible, to talk aboutthe things that matter to you and not just
(51:07):
related to your identity, your sexual orientation,your family life, your whatever, but all the
things that make you who you are. Because eventuallyif people are gonna find things,
that they can connect to you on a human level.You know, I've been, over the last couple of
months, I've been in situations where, well,I mean, I'll just talk about that. I just went
(51:32):
into treatment for alcohol addiction. And, youknow, I was thrown into it, not thrown into,
I'm sorry, that's totally not how it happened.I was not put in a street jacket and thrown
into a rehab facility. I voluntarily went, justfor the record, not that it matters how you
got there. But I went into a place, into a situationwhere, you know, I had no idea how LGBTQ welcoming
(52:02):
this place might be or whatever. Turned outI was one, well, at one point, I was the only
out gay person there, you know, in this placewith a hundred other people. you know, and
I was myself, I was out, I told my story, Ireferred to people, you know, my, you know,
to my spouse and my same sex spouse and allof these other things and treated it just as
(52:24):
the, the most normal thing. And there were peoplethere from all walks of life. I mean, literally
it is, you've got, you know, people who arephysicians down to people who, you know, are
in there because if they get out, they go backto jail for, you know, whatever. And all races,
all backgrounds, all... you know, everything.And the reason that we all got along is because
(52:50):
we had one thing in common, which was addiction.And we had, and remarkably across all of those
lines, and I don't mean to use addiction asthe thing that ties you, but I'm getting to
the point, which is that there was a commonalityin all of our experiences there that didn't
matter how you identify and that bound us togetherand enabled us to have open and honest conversations
(53:16):
with each other. And so, you know, I think thatthere's real truth, real value in telling your
truth and to being, and to sharing your storywith people. Amen. You know, James, I'll just
say that, you know, I obviously am familiarwith your story. I am both aware of and inspired
(53:38):
by, and I think you're- you're really droppingsome huge truths on this whole notion. I couldn't
agree more about how telling stories is everything.It can break down barriers, it can invite conversation,
and it's the opposite of shutting down and lackingengagement. And I think you also get at a big
(54:00):
thing, which is when we find ourselves fightinga similar battle, of course we can see... commonality
and common goals and find solidarity. I thinkthe bigger issue that we all have, the bigger
battle is that we all need to recognize as humanbeings, we all are in the same fight. And it
(54:22):
is to leave the world better than we found itand to make it a little more kind instead of
a little less kind. But boy, certainly I wantto say your story, right? We talked about this
before we came on the air. Your stories continueto evolve. like all of ours do. But I think
what I've always admired about you, James, ispartly by inevitable, the reality of who you
(54:46):
are, but circumstance and a combination of factors.Your story has tended to organize and inspire
and motivate people. So you can't be definedby one act or one thing, but the common theme,
as I've known you through the decades is, thisinspiring positive change. So it's incredibly
(55:10):
worthwhile for me. It's a great opportunitythat I welcome to be able to share this knowledge
and wisdom and compassion with anyone that'slistening. I don't know what else to say other
than we should check back in maybe as the electionwinds down and check each other, measure progress
and certainly a post-mortem after hopefullygood things happen in November. But... Um,
(55:35):
more to come, but I will certainly be happyto leave you with some final words of, of advice
or, or anything you want to leave us with. Oh,wow. Um, that's kind of putting me in a spot
here. Um, no, I mean, I, I just, I, you know,I just, well, first of all, so thank you for
(55:55):
this opportunity. It's, it's great to have thisconversation with you. It's not unlike the
conversations that we used to have in collegeat all. And I always really appreciated that
you brought that to my college experience ofbeing able to have these kind of intellectual,
very thought-provoking conversations. And you'vemade me think about a lot of things, but yeah,
(56:21):
I just, I mean, it sounds seriously stupid,but just be good people, just be kind, be open-minded.
this concept that, and don't be afraid of thingsyou don't understand. Look at it as an opportunity
to learn something. Whether that be about maleness,gender identity, sexual orientation, whatever
(56:44):
it happens to be, don't be afraid of the other.And it's because it's not, there's a lot of
beauty in having experiences with and, withpeople and with people and concepts that you
are not familiar with. I mean, what a greatnote to end on. Wise words, beautiful words
(57:07):
from a very wise and beautiful man. James, tobe continued as always, but again, thank you
for coming. There's so much here for peopleto absorb and be inspired by. You have my enduring
gratitude. Folks, thanks for checking out SomeThings Considered. To find out more, including
(57:28):
how to be a guest, you can go to SeanMurphy.net.And remember, we are obsessed with story and
celebrating creativity. We want to advocatefor the arts and creativity and compassion
by any means necessary. Drop us a line, getinvolved, be a good person, and support our
creatives and people who are doing the goodwork in the trenches, who make our lives much
(57:51):
more worth living. We'll see you next time.
Thanks for tuning in to Some Things Considered.Find out more, including how to be a guest
at SeanMurphy.net. Reminder, we are obsessedwith story and celebrating creativity. Also,
we're here to advocate for the arts by any meansnecessary. Drop us a line, get involved, and
(58:17):
support our creatives who are the lifebloodof our culture. I'm Sean Murphy, see you on
the next episode of Some Things Considered.
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