Episode #3 with Jeannine Ouellette: The Intersection of Artistry & Advocacy

Sean Murphy hosts Jeannine Ouellette to discuss behind the scenes on building a thriving literary community and transforming lives with her newsletter Writing in the Dark!

 

Today’s guest is the one and only Jeannine Ouellette, who is not only a gifted and celebrated writer, teacher, and editor, but creator of the beloved Substack newsletter Writing in the Dark. In addition, she’s author of the memoir The Part That Burns (2021), and is the quintessential creative advocate and enthusiast. Our discussion gets behind the scenes of how literary community works: how one gets involved, how one involves others, and how artistic momentum can be sustained over time. Jeaninne describes how she’s built her incredibly popular and important newsletter community, literally one subscriber at a time, and how the combination of showing up and caring is what builds genuine relationships. All of this might sound either obvious or even banal, but for those of us who have spent time in an industry filled with solitude, rejection, and very transactional relationships, to defy cynicism and actually counter it with positivity is nothing short of miraculous. Jeannine, as you’ll see and hear, is a miracle: she brings her gifts to the world, but is equally interested in helping others locate, refine, and share their gifts. The sum total of her life’s work (in progress!) is a capacity to enlarge hearts, minds, and stories. This conversation is certain to be continued.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Welcome to Some Things Considered, the podcastwhere we are obsessed with story. We celebrate
creativity and we talk to cool people to findout what makes them tick. I'm your host, Sean
Murphy. I'm an author. I direct the Center forStory at Shenandoah University and I run the
non-profit 1455 Lit Arts. For more about meand what I do, check out seanmurphy.net.

(00:36):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Some Things Considered.This is the podcast where we are obsessed with
story. We celebrate creativity and we talk tocool people to find out what makes them tick.
I'm Sean Murphy. I am your host. I'm an author.I am the founder of 1455 Literary Arts and

(00:56):
I direct the Center for Story at ShenandoahUniversity. So story is part and parcel to
what I do and I'm obsessed with it. And whatI love to explore on this podcast is how story
infiltrates so many different areas of lifethat we may not realize or think about, but
there's always a special something when we actuallyare talking to creatives. And the best part

(01:20):
of my job is I'm constantly having an opportunityto engage with unbelievably inspiring people.
I am delighted to welcome back my friend, JanineLett, who I have talked to before. And I asked
her to come back on so we could get an updateon what she's doing. I think you're going to
find her insights particularly inspiring andempowering. And you'll see why I consider her

(01:45):
a real force in both the literary and artisticand spiritual environment. But let me give
her a proper introduction. She is the authorof the amazing memoir, The Part That Burns,
which was part of the 1455 author series. andI'll make sure there's a link to that interview
from 2021. She's also the author of the children'sbook, Mama Moon and several educational titles.

(02:11):
Her stories and essays have appeared widelyand her work has been supported by fellowships
from the Malay Colony for the Arts and BrushCreek Foundation. She's the recipient of several
awards and her work has been praised by JoyceCarol Oates as simply powerful or simply beautiful.
precisely imagined, poetically structured, compellingand vivid. Here, here, I agree completely,

(02:37):
a big fan of her memoir. She teaches creativewriting. She's the founder and director of
Elephant Rock, an independent creative writingprogram in Minneapolis. She earned her MFA
in fiction from the Vermont College of FineArts and is working on her first novel, which
I wanna hear more about. Janine, welcome. It'sgreat to see you again. And thank you so much
for. taking time out of your very busy scheduleto be with us today. It's great. I love the

(03:03):
name of your podcast. I love that. It's great.Some things that's super smart and apt. So
yeah, thanks for having me here. It's really,yeah, it's great to be back. Well, great. And
you know, I think your bio, you know, tellsthe story but I think what is already clear
and what will become clear as we talk. is asI said at the outset, I just consider you a

(03:26):
very important person because you have suchan obvious passion for advocacy and the teaching
of writing. So you illustrate by doing, andfor most of us, for most mere mortals, that's
a full-time occupation that takes a lot of dedication.But to be a real genuine encourager of the

(03:50):
artistic field, is something that we are inshort supply of. And I think we can probably
get right into, I mean, so everyone can understandwhat you've been up to lately. Let's talk about
writing in the dark. I'll just tee it up bysaying, I know that, and I think it's important

(04:11):
for people to understand because you're probablygonna be a little on the modest side. Endeavors
like this seldom, if ever, just kind of cropup and say, I had this idea and I executed
it and everything worked. There's a lot of workthat goes into it. There's a lot of thought.
And in your case, I think it's fair to say awhole lifetime of doing a lot of different

(04:32):
things very well. And suddenly there was somereal symmetry, but talk about this kind of
new adventure you're on. Well, all right, thanks.Yeah, it's funny because you mentioned in my
bio, which it's fun sometimes to hear a bio,you know, we're always having to send me a
bio, send me a bio. And I've been here before,so you had a bio, it's a couple years old from

(04:55):
when my book came out. And you mentioned ElephantRock, which is the creative writing program
I founded back in 2012. It's really small, youknow, for most of those years, it was mostly
me. Or as we say, in my family now, we haveMy youngest adult child is adopting a little

(05:15):
boy out of foster care. We, his name, we callhim Z. And he, we have an inside joke. We say,
oh, only me, only me, or only you, only you,you know, because that comes from Z. So it's
a Z-ism. And so for a long time, you know, ElephantRock was only me, only me. And then a couple

(05:35):
of years ago, we started bringing in teachingartists. you know, under our umbrella and,
you know, or the platform and, which has beenreally cool and really a marvelous way to get
to know other writers and teaching artists.And I'm gonna get to your question in a minute.

(05:57):
The reason I- Thank you, Todd. Well, the reasonI bring that up is that, so this like teaching
arm, this sort of, you know, tiny writing school,which was- mostly in person pre-pandemic, and
then of course became all virtual, and now isa little bit of both again, is going to become,
as of tomorrow, I think the new websites willgo live, but I'm changing the name to Writing

(06:20):
in the Dark. Yeah, because it's like, it didn't,Writing in the Dark, which you brought up,
which for anybody who wants to know what itis, it's my, it started, it's a newsletter,
it's on Substack. And, but it's more than anewsletter. It was started as a newsletter.
That's what I thought it was going to be asa newsletter. And it is ultimately, you know,

(06:45):
I mean, at its heart center, I guess it is anewsletter because it comes out to your email
inbox, but really it's a creative community.And so in writing in the dark, which started
as a as a virtual workshop in April of 2020.That was sort of the, you know, that's the

(07:08):
genesis of all this. When the pandemic camedown and Minnesota locked down and the rest
of the country was locking down and all of ourthings were wiped off the books. You know,
this happened to a lot of us. It was like, whoa,everything that I was going to do in 2020 just
got canceled. Right. And so, you know, I quicklythought, oh gosh, how am I gonna get through

(07:29):
this? How is everyone else gonna get throughthis? And I... together a writing workshop
called it writing in the dark, taught it onzoom and have taught it ever since. But you
know, about a year and a couple of months ago,started the Substack newsletter by the same
name, thinking it was going to come out a coupletimes a week, maybe once a week, and talk a

(07:50):
little bit about writing and a little bit about,you know, maybe some writing exercises. I had
a vision for it, but it very quickly just grewto be so much more than I was expecting. People
are coming together through the, what the biggestsurprise is that you can actually teach writing

(08:17):
through this virtual in this digital way, eventhough we do come together sometimes on Zoom
and things, there are some special events, butmostly it's in the newsletter, you know, forming
community. And yeah, that's all step there,but it's been really amazing. Our most recent

(08:38):
writing intensive, I call them that we're doing,and this is for subscribers. So, you know,
there's a paid subscription option where youhave access to all of the content. And so the
intensives are for paid subscribers and it'son embodied writing. It's called the visceral
self. And last week's, we launched it with afirst post came out of a 12 week series that

(09:01):
we'll have on this. And there's more than 500responses in the comments and people talking
to each other and sharing their work and reallytaking up the task of this creative endeavor.

(09:22):
Well, congratulations. And I wanna, we'll unpacka little bit more because as I predicted, you're
being modest. I mean, you're certainly answeringthe question but we need to talk about the
unbelievable success and why I'm personallyconvinced none of this is by accident. It's
the result of tremendous hard work. But I thinkwhat's really particularly relevant right now

(09:45):
about your semi recent trajectory is that youepitomize so many of the things that I've talked
about and people in our sphere talk about whenwe talk about adapting to circumstance, building
and being part of a community, paying it forward,initiating discourse, being encouraging, putting

(10:09):
yourself out there, being authentic. It's likeall of these things that I think many authors
or teachers struggle to maybe check a coupleof those boxes. what writing in the dark has
achieved, and it's because of the person involvedin it, is it's an adaptation, which is just
again, underlines, like we had pandemic, well,in that chaos for any creative, is there opportunity,

(10:33):
unless I start to sound like a big entrepreneurialbusiness guy, which is the last thing I am.
But there is a truth, I think, to the notionof when uncertainty looms and there's chaos
that's not expected, we need to make sure thatwe're healthy and safe. but there is usually
opportunity in that. And what I think you'vetapped into in your very organic way is that

(10:55):
before, during and after the pandemic, peopleare starving for community, especially creatives,
because it's often a very solitary endeavor.It's filled with rejection. And we don't, unless
we're in an MFA, and even in those environments,it's fleeting. We don't have an engaged audience
where we can give and take and support. andhave kind of a meaningful critique and support

(11:20):
and all of these things that come with whatwe mean when we say community. So all of these
elements are being addressed. And so I thinkwhat you've had is you're the right person
at the right time with the right platform. Butin an era where we hear writers maybe cynically
saying, you gotta put it on sub stack, everyone'sgotta have a sub stack. And what I tell people

(11:41):
that bring that up is why? What are you doing?What are you writing? and would that not be
best served as a blog? I think Substack is forwriters that have content that is worth paying
a premium for or is worth subscribing to. Youhave that plus the teaching aspect. So let's
talk a little bit about how you did build organically,obviously, through all of these endeavors.

(12:06):
And the reason I'm belaboring that is becauseI just, both to celebrate you, but also for
anyone that thinks like, well, she got luckyor that would never happen to me. I'm not saying
you've got to work for 20 years to build yourplatform, but just writing a novel, having
any kind of publication breakthrough, havinga substack usually is the result of having

(12:27):
put in a lot of time and having built trustwith your audience. But talk about what surprised
you as you started kind of evolving your substack.What happened right away that you were like,
wow, this is working? Well, I mean, first ofall, thank you. You're gonna have me leaving
here feeling great, so thank you. And with regardto, I like what you said about that usually

(12:52):
these things are a lot of hard work. And I likethat you said usually, cause not always. I
mean, sometimes people have really lucky breaksand other times people work really, really
hard and they don't break through and it doesn'twork. And I think that's the difficult and
the vulnerable and the heartbreaking truth pathis that, you know, there are the usualies and

(13:14):
I like to, I, when I teach it, I'm the samewith craft. I'm like, okay, these are the things
that are conventions. And I like to know whatthey are. And I like to know if I'm breaking
them, why, you know, because I know I'm makingit harder for myself. And I think, you know,
you've read my books, so you know that I certainlyam willing to break conventions, but I want
to do it with my eyes wide open, you know, and,and say, I'm taking this risk for a good reason

(13:36):
and maybe it will stick, you know, or maybeit won't. But anyway, so all that said, I'm
glad you acknowledged, yeah, that generalismthat usually it takes a lot of hard work and
then there can be this like thing that can happenwhere you have the right idea and the right
moment at the right time. I'm pretty easy toplease. So I'm really happy, like with how

(13:58):
this is all gone. And in some ways, for somepeople, it might be kind of a small thing,
but for me it's a big thing. So that's anotherthing I just will be transparent about. It's
been a really big deal. the writing in the dark.And you also talked about entrepreneurism and
you didn't want it to be like, and this is,you know, spot your opportunity and make a
bunch of money, get rich quick or whatever.And I know that that's not what we're talking

(14:21):
about. And yet when Minnesota locked down, Ihad a retreat on the books, Sean, where I had
like a bunch of people's money in my bank accountfor an in-person retreat, my first ever international
retreat in Mexico. And it was terrifying. youknow, I was like, what is gonna happen? I've
already paid all this money to this retreatcenter. I'm gonna have to give everyone else

(14:43):
their money back. What am I gonna do? It's gonna,we're gonna, you know, all your fears. I'm
sure a lot of people felt this way. It got reallybig. Like we're gonna go bankrupt, you know,
we're both gonna lose our jobs. My husband andI like, what is gonna happen here? And coming
from like my childhood background, lot of likefinancial precarity and fear of, you know,
financial. devastation, watching my mom loseher house and all that kind of stuff. So that's

(15:10):
where I was at in March of 2020. And I was like,yeah, I'm gonna look for the opportunity. And
it was also very genuine. It was like, I'm scared,how will I keep writing? How will I maintain
creative community? But I also was aware oflike, I don't want to throw out
on social media, hey, I'm doing this workshop.it's 500 bucks, it was like $490 for six weeks

(15:36):
was the original pricing on the writing in thedark Zoom work virtual workshop at a time when
everyone else is super scared too, like it feltreally tone deaf and like a shitty thing to
do. So I was like, okay, well, what I'll dois I'll say, I'm gonna teach this workshop
and there's a sliding fee scale and it goesdown to zero. So you just tell me what you

(15:58):
can pay. And also by the way, I don't wannahear why you need the Siding fee scale, not
important. Just let me know what you can pay.And it's an honor system. So if you can afford
to pay full price, please do, because this islike how I'm supporting myself right now. And
it was perfect. It worked perfect. If only everythingwere so easy. There were people who paid zero.

(16:25):
Almost no people paid zero. There were a fewpeople over the years who paid zero. Most people...
I would say probably actually the majority ofpeople in the writing workshop had paid full
price and then maybe somewhere between 25% anda third of people use the sliding fee scale.
And so it has worked out perfectly well whereI made, always felt like I was making enough

(16:50):
money that it was fair and it was accessibleand I didn't have to do any extra work to make
it accessible. Yeah, listen, I'm trying to containmy exuberance because what you're in addition
to telling your story, which is so worth peoplehearing and kind of being informed by, you
are obliterating what breeds cynicism, I think,in the literary field or the artistic, you

(17:16):
know, the arts in general, which is so manypeople view this as either a transactional
enterprise or a zero sum game, you know, wherewhether it's financial or scratch my back and
I'll scratch yours. And so many of these relationshipsare built on kind of these very non-genuine
interactions. And what you're embodying andepitomizing is this notion of authenticity,

(17:43):
honesty, and just this open exchange of that'swhat community is. I mean, I think some of
us can try to build community with certain conditionsand that's fine. You know, every community
isn't for everyone else, but what you clearlyhave done is you're in my humble estimation,
you're personifying the buzzwords. You are,your model is inclusive. Your model lacks pretension.

(18:09):
Your model wants it to work. Your model is investedin every person having their best possible
experience. So while I do wanna celebrate howthe hard work and your vision has paid off,
I have to emphasize that this is really theresult how good people have good things happen.

(18:30):
As you pointed out earlier, of course that'snot always the case. You know, good guys don't
always finish last. Bad gals finish first. Butin your case, there's so many of these things
that are clicking. And to me, I think that'sthe, in an environment where we're just so
taught, it's inculcated at like, what's thehack? You know, what's the code I need to break

(18:54):
to get a best seller? or to get a sub stackthat actually pays me some money. There's no
code. There may be our codes, but there's noshortcut or as you pointed out, very seldom.
And if you're gonna bank on that shortcut, you'reprobably gonna be disappointed. You probably
are gonna be disappointed. It's frustratingto try to hack things. I'm sure there are hacks

(19:17):
that work, but I'm almost like, Like I havea way, I'm very passionate and I have a kind
of a core set of beliefs about teaching andabout what works with teaching writing. And
one of the things that your listeners may wannaknow is I've been teaching for a really long

(19:39):
time because I was an elementary and middleschool teacher before I left that field in
2010. So I was doing that for a decade and thenI left that field and I'm at the university
now where I also teach. But something aboutteaching elementary and middle school, it's
different. It's like you're teacher first, writersecond, for sure. I was still moonlighting

(20:02):
and freelancing as a writer, but no matter whatthe subject is when you're teaching children
like that, you're a generalist and it's reallyabout the teaching. It's not subject matter,
it's teaching. And I think that that... formedme. It really gave me, when you are in a classroom,
at least for me, it was really important, justiceand ethics and how everyone felt and how I

(20:25):
could hold myself, kind of check myself andhold myself to certain standards in terms of
the social fabric of the classroom and wheredifferent people's needs getting met and so
forth. And it formed, I do think it was veryformative in terms of how I approach community.
when I'm teaching in a literary context. Andso, and what I've found back to the newsletter,

(20:50):
so launching the sub stack is that, you know,we are in a loneliness epidemic, as you know,
you didn't use that term, but we are like thesurgeon general, what is it six, eight months
ago now, or more made that official. Peopleof all ages across all, demographics and all

(21:14):
income levels and also socioeconomic and educationalbackgrounds, you know, are really craving meaningful
human connection. And so what I found, I wasn'texpecting it because it wasn't like what I
had intentionally set out to do, but that it'sjust if I, if whatever I do, this is going
to be a part of it. And so there I was on Substack,you know, sort of like being just doing, this

(21:37):
is what I do. It's like, we're going to havecommunity and interact in a certain way and
people really responded. And so, and what Imean by that, so I'm gonna break it down because
I have had a few experiences where people werereally generous and honest about like the things
we don't usually talk about and like money andearning a living, you know, in the arts. Yep.

(22:00):
And so I launched my newsletter in Decemberof 2022 with a pretty defunct email list that,
you know, when you have a website, you can collectemail addresses. You know, it'll be like, sign
up for my newsletter that I didn't have. Andthen that would be like, I could push out a

(22:23):
blog through Squarespace if I had a retreatcoming up or something, you know, to let people
know about. So that was the function of that.And so I did import that list of about 600
email addresses. but otherwise, you know, had,I didn't have any pay. That was it. And just
kind of hit the ground. And, but something happenedright away that was super helpful, which is

(22:49):
that I wrote a post called 11 Things. That'slike a, the title of the post is like, 11 Urgent
and Possibly Helpful Things I've Learned fromReading Thousands of Manuscripts. Cause I've
been a developmental editor and also an acquiringeditor at doing business in journals for a
long time. And I had just come back from thatMexico retreat, which finally happened after

(23:12):
being postponed for a couple of years for COVID.And I had read, I think there were 13, this
was a revision retreat and there were 13 manuscripts.So I came back just sort of like on fire with
these patterns that I had seen all week, youknow, from being immersed in these manuscripts
and really for a couple of months, reading themin advance and preparing for the. for the week

(23:35):
with the writers and I had, I was, my brainwas exploding. So I thought I need to write
this down. So I wrote a post of the 11 thingsand Brevity picked it up. And then there was
something in Lit Hub. And so that kind of helpedto kind of get a little bit of, you know, small
time literary buzz around the sub stack. Butnow today, so what are we like? um, December

(23:59):
to December, then January, February, March.So, you know, about 15 months or so in, and
this is coming from a pretty, I'm not, I don't,I don't have a big platform. I'm just a writer,
you know, doing my thing over in the corner.I joke with my husband. I'm just sitting on
the couch with my laptop, you know? But we have7,000 subscribers, which isn't like a huge

(24:25):
number on Substack at all. But what's extraordinaryis that more than 1300 of those are paid subscribers.
And so, you know, that's like a gross annualizedincome of almost $80,000. And so I'm actually
just gonna say that out loud, thanks. BecauseI mean, that's before Substactix, they're cut.

(24:47):
That's before Stripe, that's before, you know,the people I have, a couple of young people
I pay to help me with some stuff. But I do thinkit's important when we can tell each other,
like this is what I'm doing and this is what'shappening and this is how long it took and
this is what, because without specifics, anyway,I just wanted to say that because people have

(25:09):
done that for me and it's been really, reallyhelpful. So first of all, again, congratulations,
but also I'm very glad. I'm not necessarilygonna bring up the specifics, but. One of the
things I was gonna be at pains to point outtoday is, of course, there are so many aspects
of our conversation that are relevant to maybemore inexperienced or aspiring writers and

(25:35):
creatives. But I think the other side, and Icome at this certainly from my own kind of
purview as a writer and nonprofit director,but as someone that is on campus now and teaching
students, I've... been nurturing what I wouldcall a radical ambivalence about MFAs. I've

(25:56):
never been anti-MFA. I'm not anti-MFA now atall. But what I have been ambivalent and troubled
about is that as college gets more and moreexpensive, nevermind an MFA, just an undergrad
at a community college, but as these pricesskyrocket and for a variety of horrible reasons,

(26:17):
the options are exceedingly limited and increasinglylimited, whether that's to teach, to make a
living as a writer, you know, ha ha, or to evenget an entry level job, you know, with technology
doing what it's doing and media consolidation.I think what you just brought up is completely
important for mid-career author, professor,artsy types, because we are in this weird place

(26:42):
right now that is still shaking out. post pandemic,but with AI and technology in general, where
does one go as even what we would call successfulauthors a generation ago are demonstrably making
less? Yeah. You know, the pie is shrinking.Yes. So when we talk about adapting, we talk

(27:02):
about being creative in every sense of the word.What you're talking about, again, is not necessarily
a prescription for anyone to follow, but it'sproof that the world's changing. So we need
to change and there is opportunity out there.It's gonna require a lot of effort, but there
are opportunities that we can carve out thatdon't necessarily reside in a classroom or

(27:25):
on the bestseller list. Yeah, I love that yousaid that because, and it is like, so one of
the things that I talk about in December ofthis past year, so December 23, when it was
my newsletter's one year anniversary, I did.I wrote up essentially, it was in part for
myself, but I shared it publicly and those postswent like what I always say, like a little

(27:46):
bit viral. But I wrote up sort of like, whathave I learned from this? And this was when
I guess we were about a halfway because it'sgrowing faster now than it was before. It's
got a little bit exponential. So that was whereI was at about half of where I am right now
back in December of 23. And I wanted to say,okay, so what's working? What have I done?

(28:06):
Like I really wrote it up. how did it, wheredid I start? What have I done? And one of the
things that I realized when I came away fromwriting what became a pretty big mess of, I
don't know, like, I don't know, I had to breakit into two posts because it was like more
than 10 or 15 single space word document, youknow, pages. And I, but what I learned is that

(28:32):
I know exactly what it is, like, you know, there'sthis thing that you can know, what is your,
what do you have to give? You know, what isit that you really have to bring to the conversation
and what do you have to offer to others thatthey, that's a value. And then that's not to
say that it's gonna be for everyone. We canjust put that disclaimer out there right now.

(28:55):
No one is for everyone. You know, everyone isa different flavor, but I know what I have
to offer. And it is a very, You know, it ismy kids, like my daughter said right away,
oh, mom, it's because it's you. You know, andit's because I'm very devoted, very, my, or
Billy says, oh, mom, you will always hold someone'shand. You know, so I'm very devoted and I'm

(29:21):
very warm, but I'm also very rigorous. And sothis is sort of like, was my claim to fame
as a- elementary and middle school teacher too.Like my classroom was orderly and we had a
way of doing things, but also I was really warmand devoted. And I have just kind of remained
in that space. And so the feedback from my subscribersis that the craft is extremely rigorous, that

(29:48):
they're bringing in a, and I don't wanna soundlike whatever boastful right now. I'm just
really actually just describing how I know thatI teach, which is high rigor, high expectation.
Like I really believe everyone can improve theirwriting. 100%. I am, I absolutely believe writing

(30:08):
can be taught, you know? And so I'm gonna, youknow, bring my 30 years of writing experience
and craft to the table and share it without,with no holds barred. Like I'm gonna give you
everything I've got, but it's also a very warmspace. It's a super emotionally safe space.
I have very strong passionate ideas about critique,most of which regard how unhelpful I think

(30:33):
it is. So I have a very specific way that Iapproach any kind of feedback for people. And
I do think feedback is necessary, but I thinkthat the way that critique has been handled
by and large in literary circles is really unhelpful.And so... And so those beliefs create a very

(30:54):
rigorous safe space where people can take risks,they can experiment, they can try and try again,
and they can do that. Because like for me, theworst thing for any creative is to be trapped
in a cycle where you're on rinse and repeat,where you're doing the same thing that you
already know how to do because it's safe andyou know that you can pull off that trick.

(31:16):
And I'm not saying of course we're gonna dothe things we're good at, of course we're gonna
do the things that we've practiced and studied,but if we're not growing, we're not taking
risks, then we're not actually creating, that'snot creative. We're not actually, we're going
to burn out, we're gonna get dead inside. AndI think that to wrap this thought, that also

(31:39):
makes it a really safe space for beginners becauseI believe that if the teaching in this school
of thought that I live in is such that eventhe most experienced writer is really being
constantly asked and encouraged to push outof their comfort zone and be at risk, be vulnerable
when I say that, I mean, just be vulnerablein that you're trying something new and you

(32:04):
should be taking a chance that it's gonna bea mess. And if even the most experienced writer
is doing that, then the brand new writer feelsa lot more comfortable and at home to say,
really? Oh, well, then I guess it's this wayfor everyone. So I am in the right place. Like
I'm not, when I used to teach in person retreats,people would email me and they would say, do

(32:26):
you think I'm okay for this? Like, I don't wannahold anyone back, people would say. And it's
so tender and thoughtful, but also so revelatoryof like how we, you know, like how scared we
can be inside of putting ourself in a. creativeenvironment and being like the worst one. So

(32:48):
my way of teaching is like, nobody's gonna bethe worst one. I felt like that doesn't exist.
Right. So once again, I wanna thank you notonly for all of that period, but I think what
you're really conveying, why it works for you,it's not a mystery, why it's difficult, why
it has to suit the individual. And it's like,bless you for creating that very safe space.

(33:13):
for people to be open and vulnerable, whichis where so much of the good art comes from
anyway. But I also have to kind of somewhatsardonically note that if you want to hear
critiques of the MFA system and that maybe thingsthat are changing, but kind of the outmoded,
very patriarchal system, talk to an MFA graduateand hear them talk about the environment that

(33:37):
takes place in the workshop with the critiquesand the... the unbelievable clicks that exist
and the favoritism and so forth. Again, notto say that any of that is not valuable, but
I think what you're reminding us of is that,I think it's like teaching in general. Of course
you wanna teach the subject, you want the peopleto gain some proficiency. I mean, that's the

(34:01):
ostensible purpose, but so much other importantstuff goes into being in a teaching environment
where you're riffing with other people, you'relearning by hearing how other people approach
their problems. This communal act is liftingup boats. And that's the stuff that I don't
think gets articulated often enough when wetalk about what's good teaching, what's a good

(34:25):
workshop environment, how can people learn?And I also wanna note, I love that you said,
I believe writing can be taught because that'sanother zero sum game. Like, hey kid, you're
either born with it or not. First of all, howridiculous that is. And the other thing you
touched on that I've talked about a bunch andI'm always happy to invoke, there's nothing
that I've found both inspiring and depressingis when I read authors I admire who have been

(34:50):
in the game for a long time and you read themand they'll say things almost always sound
the same. And they'll say, I started on a newproject. It's terrible. I don't know how to
do this. I have to figure out how to write allover again. And I'm like, if somebody like
Philip Roth or Joyce Carol Oates or whomever,John Updike, is saying that, what hope is there
for us mortals? But then I find inspirationin that because it's a reminder that we're

(35:14):
all human, art is weird. And if it was a formulathat you could just follow, more people could
do it. So it's empowering and it's terrifying,but in that middle space, I think is where
real creativity can occur. And it wouldn't beart. You know, like it wouldn't be art if you
could just know for sure you could do it again.It's like you can use all of the same like

(35:37):
craft and everything you've ever learned andthen write another story and it doesn't work.
It didn't work, you know? And it's that openness.And I just wanted to say that with regard to,
yeah, the whole MFA thing, I have an MFA, butthe idea of a safe creative space, there's
one distinction that I wanna draw because Ihave mentioned rigor a couple of times and

(36:01):
I have also said I do believe in feedback, but-I am honest, you know, and if I say I have
a writing exercise and I'm asking people todo a certain thing, you know, and there's an
end point in mind and that's going to look reallydifferent for every writer, but there is something
we're practicing is how I like to look at it.We're practicing a certain thing. We're trying
to get at something. And I, you know, I am veryhonest if someone shares something and it's

(36:27):
not that thing, you know, I'm going to say,oh, okay, this is cool. So it's not exactly
what we were doing. you know, what we're, whatwe were, what I was, what we're doing was this.
And I point that out just by way of saying thatI think there is also a difference between
a rigorous teaching space that is safe. We'rejust gonna start with that, that it should
be a critically safe space where people aretreated with respect and regard and care for

(36:52):
their humanity and their creativity. But itcan also be honest because otherwise how can
people learn? Yes. And that's, that differentiatesdifferentiates it from just like just for fun,
you know, or just for like, yeah, I guess justfor fun is the easiest way to say it. There

(37:16):
are cool things we can do creatively just forfun and we can and should in fact, you know,
and some things should be just for fun, butI'm very, I feel very strongly that things
should be honest, things should be what theysay they are. And so if we describe something
as a learning experience, like if we describethat this is what we're doing, say just for

(37:41):
example, teaching, then it should be that. Sojust name things and be clear about what they
are and then adhere to that and then peoplewill trust you. And I am aware that if I don't
do that, and this is from a lot of in-personand live teaching, that when something happens

(38:01):
in the room, some people may or may not be awareof it, but I am, and I know that if I don't
rise up and address this, that people will,I will erode the sacred trust that I have with
people, and that's not okay with me. Yeah, thankyou. And I appreciate you underscoring the

(38:25):
real disparity between a safe, happy place youknow, everything is off limits. And, you know,
I think it's no mystery that in an environmentwhere there's honesty and genuine feedback,
I think, you know, you are gonna lose the pretenders,which is fine. It's the reason that you've

(38:46):
built and engaged with this growing audienceis because I think on balance, most people
want constructive feedback. Most people wantto improve, wanna see how they can do better.
Obviously, and you've, I think we've both, agreedon the way that criticism and feedback is offered
is critical. But I think most people are seriousabout the endeavor and appreciate having spent

(39:12):
their time constructively. The people that arethere to hopefully have their egos flattered,
it's going to be a fleeting experience and they'llprobably drift away. So I'm really glad that
you brought that up because that's what buildsthe trust. And that's what makes it not a waste
of everyone's time. And also I'm going to belabor,this is one of the many reasons I really admire

(39:35):
you, Janine, because I do think there are someprofessionals that would say, hey, look, I'm
doing the best I can, here are the rules, youpaid, get out of it, what you're gonna get
out of it. Like it's so obvious that you'revery invested in everyone having their best
experience and it's not one size fits all. AndI'll say that people just like writing can

(39:55):
be taught teaching. can be you get better, butI do think it's a testament to you. I don't
think there are many teachers that really walkthe walk and genuinely feel if I'm not doing
my job at a high level, how can I expect toget high level results? That's a real credit
to you and what you've built. Well, thank you.I appreciate that. And yeah, I've often described

(40:19):
myself as much teacher as writer. So sometimes,a lot of us as writers teach because that's
how you support yourself. You know, it's hardfor most of us for solely, if at all, the books
and the writing to support us. But I actually,I am also just by identity a teacher, but I

(40:41):
will say that, you know, we talk about likethese words, constructive criticism or feedback.
And like for me, what I've come to now, lowthese many years down the pike is that it's
just really not even about criticism. It's justlike, what is it? Just like, and this is how
I've come to this very pure approach to writingtoo, is just like everything is just, it is
just being very precise. Precision is key. Sobeing precise about, you know, what I've now

(41:07):
seen a number of, the more I read, the moreI see, oh, this phrase just keeps coming up,
but the thing itself, you know, what is thething itself? And so if somebody is doing an
exercise I've given and they've just done somethingelse, you know, it's like, oh, okay, well,
you did this. It's just naming it. here's whatyou did, that's cool. Here's what we were doing.
And so it actually takes the subjectivity outof it. And it's not, is it good, is it bad?

(41:34):
It's just, was it on purpose? Is that what youmeant to do? Was that what you set out to do?
Because for me too, there's like this, we canhave our happy accidents and then we can have
the things like, I set out to create this effect.And that was my intention. Did I do it? Did
I do what I set out to do? And I think whenyou can, and this isn't like, this isn't a

(41:56):
shtick or something. It's not like, well, ifI say it this way, it will be less like, you
know, harsh or something. It's not like thatat all. It's like, that's actually how I'm
trying to be in the world with my own crafttoo. It's like, what is it? You know, and just,
so it's genuine. You know, it is like, I'm reallylooking at it saying, oh, okay, so that's something

(42:18):
else. That's something, you know, maybe we wouldcall this that. It came up, something came
up in the comments the other day where someonewas saying something about something that I
said about plain language. And they were saying,I think I get it now. I get, we were talking
about like writerly cartwheels the whole ElmoreLeonard quote, if it sounds like writing, I

(42:39):
rewrite it. And someone who's been kind of inthe intensives for a while was like, oh, I
get that now. I get it. And I think that's gonnabe so helpful to me. And I was like, that's
great. I'm really glad to hear that. And alsobear in mind that maximalism can be really
cool. Like maximalism when it's on purpose canbe just this delightful exotic experience on

(43:03):
the page that for the reader and the writer.And then I sent that writer a link to Brian
Doyle's Joyous Valladorus. Do you know that?Oh, well, I'll send it to you after. Yeah,
definitely. It's this ecstatic piece that'sabout so-called the hummingbird, but really

(43:26):
it's about what it means to be a human beingand love and your heart, to live with a heart
and have it break and yet go on loving. It'sa beautiful piece. And I consider it ecstatic
and maximalist. And so, So in other words, I'malways wanting to undermine my own authority

(43:48):
to, you know, it's like to say, yeah, this isthe thing that I'm looking at right now. This
is the thing that we were aspiring to in thismoment, but never think that that's the only
way. It's just, did you do it on purpose? Isthis what you meant to do? Yeah. I think one
of the things you're articulating so beautifullyis you're helping creatives find and celebrate

(44:13):
their own voice, which is part and parcel. Imean, successful writing, that's always gonna
be subjective. If it gets published, if it sellsa certain amount, if it satisfies the writer,
and I think we, again, live in an environment,we probably always have in America, but like,
you know, what is hot now? Who do I imitate?How do I make this palatable? And the notion

(44:35):
of finding one's own voice, I think we wouldprobably both agree, is if you're looking to
do this, first of all, and I don't like to usethe word pretender, because that sounds a little
pompous, but like, The people that aren't init for the right reasons, they're gonna take
care of themselves because as we talked about,it's so fraught with rejection and solitude.
Like you're not gonna stay in it without successfor decades just because you wanna punish yourself.

(44:57):
So I do feel confident that the people thataren't meant to be writing probably won't stick
with it. But the people that really want toand want to get better, I think what we teach
them is when you're scratching that internalcreative itch and you're writing in your own
voice, Whatever the end result is, if you'resatisfying that motivation that made you wanna

(45:18):
pick up a pen in the first place, that's everything.A lot of the other stuff you'll find is gravy.
It can be wonderful gravy. It can be sustainingand nourishing gravy. But if you're not day
in and day out feeling like you're doing whatyou were uniquely put on this earth to do,
it's probably gonna feel a little hollow andit's always gonna feel like a hustle. Mm, yeah.

(45:41):
And I think that, you know, when you talk about,when I listen to you, I think about a subset
of writers who are on the path or wanting tobe on the path to publication, you know, and
that is, you know, that's you and that's me,and you know, and that's a lot of the writers

(46:04):
that study with me. And it's, but it's not allof them. Like it's also, there's this other,
you know, group of creative people who maybethey eventually will want to be on that path
or maybe they won't even, but they just wantto learn a craft. Nobody is going to want to
study with me for long if they're only interested,I will say the disclaimer like that they're

(46:28):
only interested in writing for self-expression.I would say that's probably like a subgroup
of people who would feel, you know, like frustrated.with my approach because it definitely, I'm
100% recognize that what I'm doing is aboutmaking the writing better. But the reason for

(46:51):
that is not necessarily so you can publish it,although if that's what you're trying to do,
I'm all about it. That's what I'm trying todo. I like art to be an interaction and exchange,
a human, this collective experience. That'swhat But it could also be this idea that, you

(47:15):
know, like as Toni Morrison said in the taglinefor writing in the dark is for people who do
language. And it comes from her 1993 Nobel Prizeacceptance speech where she said that, you
know, we die, that may be the meaning of ourlives, but we do language. And that may be
the measure of our lives. And it's just a beautifulquote. And Wendell Berry said that it is our

(47:41):
job as writers to make language capable of tellingthe truth again. And he said that like, I think
10 years before Trump was elected, which I thinkthat, you know, that election only amplified
exponentially the poignancy of what Berry saidabout language. And I think that also really

(48:08):
for me spotlighted this thing I've always beeninterested in for a long time now, but this
idea of like the precision of using languageto look really closely at the world as it is
and to be able to express that with enough precisionthat it means more, that it means more than

(48:32):
the sum of its parts. Because the older I get,I swear, the longer I do this. the more it
becomes evident to me that it's all alreadythere. The metaphors are right in front of
us. We don't need any tricks of language. Wejust need to look more closely, say it more
precisely, and it will just burst open on thepage, but it will also burst open in our lives.

(48:58):
Our lives are better. Our humanity is deepenedand made richer. our human experience is made
richer by a practice of being able to, you know,language, we make meaning with language. That's
what we got. That's what we were given. That'swhat makes us different. And so if we can actually

(49:21):
use that tool to be more curious, more precise,more observant, more attentive, and more, you
know, more connected to the world that we'reliving in and each other, you know, that's
gonna change our lives. So, somebody can followmy work and teaching and maybe not ever be
looking to like, do the hustle, do the thing,get unsubmittable, be sending their workout,

(49:48):
be dealing with all the rejections, et cetera,et cetera, looking for an agent, all that kind
of stuff. A lot of people are, want that. Theywant to be in conversation as a writer with
their workout in the world. And I think that'sreally beautiful. And I think there is... there's
benefit to that even in this pretty challengingliterary landscape that we're in right now.

(50:13):
But we can also benefit from the study of craftjust for the sake of being a better writer
because it makes us, it makes our lives better.I'm a firm believer. Here, here, I am too,
again, beautifully said. I think, I think Ifeel like I had a pretty good handle on what

(50:35):
you're all about, and I can articulate why Iadore you, but I think what comes through this
conversation so clearly and eloquently is thatyou care very deeply about words and language
and craft. But you also care very deeply abouthuman beings on a fundamental level, which
obviously informs your teaching, but the confluenceof those two genuinely held passions. make

(51:01):
a very potent combination. And in my estimation,a very rare combination. And again, you just
dropped a whole lot of wisdom. But I think oneof the things that kind of lodged in my head
as you were talking was this kind of, I thinka reaffirmation that we can and should, of
course, look to examples and guideposts, humanand written to figure out ways to learn and

(51:28):
evolve. But the reality, I think, especiallyfor writers is we need to constantly be insatiably
curious. And it's often a combination of a lotof different sources. I think for some people
that's overwhelming and maybe there's just toomuch work that goes into that. But to successfully
navigate the creative path, learning from thedifferent people and seeing what's worked for

(51:51):
them and test driving it and seeing, you know,is this the type of work I wanna do? Well,
maybe I wanna read more closely. in this genre,or I want to do more of that or less of this.
But again, I just think that also brings homethat for most of us, unfortunately, there are
no shortcuts. And there really is no kind ofsecret that some of us get to a fork in the

(52:12):
road and we turn the key and it's all there.It's this constant process of learning. And
again, I don't think I'm flattering you by sayingyou kind of epitomize that your personal journey
has informed the creative and educational journeythat you're on and There's just this beautiful
symbiosis between how you're growing and howyour engagement with your audiences are growing.

(52:36):
It's just a wonderful thing to behold. Well,I appreciate all of that. And I feel too that
one of the wonderful things about writing isthat, you know, if you can read, you know,
and therefore write, you don't need anythingelse to do it. My husband and I took an outing

(53:00):
on Saturday, my birthday is coming up and wewent over to, we have in Minneapolis, this
warehouse arts district where artists have theirstudios, and they have open Saturdays. So I
thought, oh, well, maybe we'll find somethingto put on the wall. Anyway, it's super fun
looking through all the studios and all thethings people are making. And just, it's very

(53:21):
inspiring to me, human beings making art. ButI also said to my husband, gosh, It's just
so like, this is so, it takes so much, likeall the materials and supplies and the canvases
and the paints and the metals and the loomsand like everything and renting studio space
and everything. And writing is really accessible,as an art, it is available. You do have to

(53:51):
be able to read, to write, but otherwise, butthere's storytelling, stories are available
to all of us. And I feel like this idea, thething that's great about that is the accessibility.
The thing that's challenging about it is thatlanguage, it's deceiving. And this is, I think

(54:14):
why Wendell Berry says, our job is to make itcapable of telling the truth again. It's deceiving
because look at us, like we've probably usedthousands and thousands of words just to talk
to each other, you know, in this conversation.Words are, they're too easy. And that ease,
like it's almost like it's too easy and thatease can make us feel like we've made something

(54:40):
that we've used our creativity to make somethingwhen we have not. You know what I'm trying
to say? When we've not used our creativity,said some version of a thing that we've said
a million times before in different ways, orwe've just put words together, we've spilled
them out, which is there's a place for that.I'm all about the shitty first draft and et
cetera, et cetera. But there is a differentthing that's happening when we're making art

(55:07):
with words. And it's, you know, we don't havetime, right, in this conversation to drill
all the way down into what that means and whatit feels like. But a big part of what I love
to teach is what it feels like when you're doingthat. And someone will come back and say, I
have to tell you what happened when I was doingthat. And here's what I felt. And I'm like

(55:30):
that. Make a note, put a pin in that, as thebusiness people say. Remember that feeling.
That's creativity. That's what it feels liketo be in the unknown. That's what it feels
like to have let down the guard. and have enteredinto a state of uncertainty and be in a state

(55:50):
of discovery. And now you were being creative.Now you were making something new and we can't
recreate, we can't do it again unless we canremember what it feels like. And then we'll
know, oh, I'm in it, I'm doing it. I'm beingcreative. And it's like a feeling in the body
and people know it when they have it. And thatcan be taught too. It actually can be taught,

(56:17):
but people will tell me, oh, now I get it. That'swhat I haven't felt before. Like that's it.
Because yeah, language can be very deceptive.It's too familiar to us. It's too easy. It's
too ready. It's too at the ready, which is whatI love about it. If it hadn't been for that,

(56:37):
I didn't have access to any other arts as akid. You know, like I wouldn't, you know, I
thank, you know, the stars for the fact thatwords were free. You know, no paints, no paint
brushes, no dance classes, you know, words werethere and they were free to me. So like most
things, there's the gift and the challenge ofthat. Yeah, yeah. So we come to the end of

(57:03):
an hour and I feel like this was an excellentintroduction. I feel like there's more wisdom
to be dispensed. We didn't really get to...talk about your craft and your writing. So
with great enthusiasm and gratitude, I willsimply say, I always enjoy talking to you.

(57:26):
I wanna welcome you back anytime and we cancontinue, especially as things heat up, speaking
of truth and the value of words and communication,things are only gonna get more intense. I think
it would be wonderful to check in with you ina little bit. and see where we both are as
it relates to, you know, using our words andour communities to battle words used poorly

(57:51):
and with ill intent versus with good intent.But for today, you certainly have, you know,
reinvigorated as always this sense of possibilityand reminder that, you know, the stakes are
high, it's our lives, but doing it with joyand finding your own way Formulation is its

(58:15):
own reward. So I'm just so grateful, Janine,for you for kind of sharing your wisdom and
your generosity. And I hope that people thatare tuning in are super inspired. Final words
from you and please remind everyone how theycan find you online. Well, you can find me
at janinolette.com and at writ And...

(58:42):
on Substack at Writing in the Dark. So, andthen I'm on social media too, but I think those
are the best places to find me because theyhave all the other links. And just wanna thank
you again, what a treat to get to come and talkabout, yeah, these big ideas and thanks for
emphasizing the joy because I think that itis really important. Why would we do this if

(59:05):
we can't have some pleasure and joy in it, right?Why would we come back? Why are we gonna come
back to the page? And especially for those ofus who are facing the challenges of the hustle
and submittable and the rejections and the disappointments,there has to be some joy in it. That's the
sustaining part. So I'm glad you mentioned that,thank you. My pleasure. And again, I'll just,

(59:29):
I'll conclude by saying, Janine, as a teacher,as a writer, as an advocate, as a human being,
you just fill me with inspiration. So... Thankyou so much and let's talk again, you know,
soon. Awesome, thanks, Sean. All right, heyeverybody, thanks for checking out Some Things
Considered. This is the podcast where we areobsessed with creativity. We celebrate storytelling.

(59:54):
To find out more, you can check it out at seanmurphy.net,1455litarts.org. If you wanna be a guest or
spread the word, do so. Enjoy, go out, be safe,be creative, be kind, and we will see you soon.

(01:00:15):
Thanks for tuning in to Some Things Considered.Find out more, including how to be a guest
at SeanMurphy.net. Reminder, we are obsessedwith story and celebrating creativity. Also,
we're here to advocate for the arts by any meansnecessary. Drop us a line, get involved, and
support our creatives who are the lifebloodof our culture. I'm Sean Murphy, see you on

(01:00:37):
the next episode of Some Things Considered.