Spill the Wine Episode 9: Why can wine seem so pretentious? We did it to ourselves! A visit to Cave Spring Tasting Room

Episode Transcript
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Andrea Morris [00:00:00]: Hello, friends. I'm Andrea Morris, and welcome to another episode of Spill the Wine, a podcast which, duh, is all about wine. And today, we're gonna have a really fun journey because we're actually not at a small lot winery today. We're at one of the larger wineries in the, Bench area. And again, a place that I've been to very often, Cave Springs, where, full disclosure, I am a wine club member here. (00:00):
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Len [00:00:24]: Mhmm. (00:01):
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Andrea Morris [00:00:25]: So now you know how much I like their wines. We're sitting with Len today and thank you very much for being here. (00:02):
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Len [00:00:30]: Oh, welcome. Good to have you here. (00:03):
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Andrea Morris [00:00:32]: Yes. And good to be in the tasting room. Now you're one of the few wineries in the area that actually has multiple locations. You have two wineries. (00:04):
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Len [00:00:38]: Two locations. Two tasting rooms. Yeah. Yeah. This one here in Jordan, which is where we make the wine. So the winemaking is occurring at the other end of the building right now as we speak. We have Riesling coming in today. And, so the wine is made here, but, we like to say that you don't make wine, you grow it. (00:05):
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Len [00:00:56]: We grow our wine on Cave Spring Road in Beamsville, not far from where you live. And that is, in in that location, we also have a tasting room. So vineyard in one location, winemaking in another location, tasting room in each location. (00:06):
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Andrea Morris [00:01:10]: And what made you decide to actually open up the vineyard as another tasting room? (00:07):
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Len [00:01:16]: Well, I'm glad you asked that because our our problem for many, many for decades literally, because we've been here since 1987 in Jordan. We've always been associated with Jordan. It was kind of like an urban setting or, you know, village setting. But we have 70 acres of vineyards in in Beamsville all in one place on the bench there. And, nobody knew it because they always came here. They're they're our identity was associated more with this place than with that that site up there where we make we like to say we we grow we grow our wine, and that's where we grow it. Our name is Cave Spring because our vineyards are located on that road. So so, I mean, the point is that our our vineyards are located there. (00:08):
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Len [00:01:56]: And for us, that's Cave Spring. That is that is our heart and soul where we grow the grapes. Here, we make the wine. It's a lovely spot. It's got a great facility for making wine. This is an old building that was a winery has been a winery for literally close to two hundred years, and so it's an appropriate place to be making wine. But we grow it up there. (00:09):
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Andrea Morris [00:02:17]: But it's also nice to have the option to come to a place to to to the tasting room here in Jordan Mhmm. Where you make the wine, but then to also have the ability to go and just sit and look at the beautiful surroundings of the vineyards. Yeah. And it's it's nice that you have that choice. (00:10):
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Len [00:02:32]: Well, we never had it before. Now we do. It's only been a few years since we've had that facility up there, and we we we're so thrilled finally to be able to showcase that beautiful spot because it's it's it's always been where our wines came from, but not very many people knew that until until we finally had a place up there to showcase. (00:11):
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Andrea Morris [00:02:51]: That's great. And I really enjoy it there because I can actually walk there. Mhmm. Which is a bonus for me. But, but listener, if you've gotta come out here and visit it and see it and many many weddings take place (00:12):
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Len [00:03:03]: Mhmm. (00:13):
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Andrea Morris [00:03:03]: In that area as well. Now one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today too, Lynn, is because one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is because so many people come out to visit me and when I say let's go to a winery, they go, I don't know anything about wine. And what are your thoughts on the fact that people seem to think that wine is one of the few beverages that you can't enjoy unless you know something about? (00:14):
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Len [00:03:25]: Yeah. That's I I as I said earlier, we did it to ourselves as an industry. I mean, you mentioned beer. People people aren't intimidated by beer, happy to go to a craft brewery and and just figure out what what's on tap and and enjoy it. Our the history of our industry has really been an aristocratic history in Europe, especially, where, you know, these famous vineyards owned by aristocrats, the the whole, formality associated with wine. And and the and the idea that you had to know, in order just to try the beverage, you had to know about places, you know, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Chianti, wherever. And Champagne. Champagne. (00:15):
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Len [00:04:06]: All of those places, were considered very high class aristocratic type, places and therefore therefore not accessible to the ordinary consumer. And and that legacy has lived on in in our industry. And we tend to to, you know, talk about so many really, really, arcane and and and, you know, unusual topics, that people don't relate to. They don't they don't understand about grape growing or, you know, vine trellising or or all the things that go into making a wine. But as as winery people, that that that's what we do. We start talking about very technical stuff that that ordinary consumers just don't understand, and that that's they find that intimidating. We we should really stop doing it that way. We should be just making wine accessible and and inviting and and allow people to enjoy it the way they do any other beverage. (00:16):
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Len [00:05:03]: But I (00:17):
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Andrea Morris [00:05:03]: think that that also comes with the with turf with any industry that you're in because when I first started working in the music industry years ago Mhmm. Were throwing around terminology that I had no idea what they were talking about. So I think that that you just when you're in an industry for a long time, all of that lingo just becomes like second nature and you forget that it's intimidating Right. To someone that's walked into a winery for the first time. (00:18):
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Len [00:05:27]: Exactly. And so we need to remind ourselves every day that, you know, ordinary people don't, understand the language, and all of the, technicalities that we take for granted. And so, I I think that's something we need to do, more more of. And and we've we've gotten better. We have tasting rooms like this, and and we we we we learned the hospitality aspect of our business. I think we do a far better job than we used to. I mean, there was a time when you couldn't even visit a tasting room anywhere in Niagara. There were wineries, but but the idea that tourists would come in and actually be able to taste the product is foreign. (00:19):
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Len [00:06:09]: Really? Yeah. And that was true also in Europe. Places like Bordeaux and Burgundy, only the only the invited were allowed to come in and taste because these were these were hallowed places, chateau, and, like, as I said, aristocratic. Not everybody in the world could just drop in and and taste, you know, chateau petrous or whatever in in in in any of these famous wine regions. And that that became the norm that was the norm for many, many, literally centuries, I would say. (00:20):
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Andrea Morris [00:06:40]: And now we've evolved to bus tours and bachelorette parties at wineries and Exactly. And and people making it much more accessible. (00:21):
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Len [00:06:47]: So we're getting there, but but we still have we also celebrate, you know, sommeliers. I mean, have you have you heard of a beer sommelier or a spirit sommelier? You don't really hear about the idea that you're a sommelier. You're someone who's studied wine. You've gone through various levels of expertise. That's your calling card, that's that's a kind of badge of honor in the wine business. That is also a barrier for ordinary consumers. Right? Because if you're because because you sort of signal that, there are experts and then there's everybody else. And that's not a good way to to invite people into the category. (00:22):
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Andrea Morris [00:07:27]: Like, yeah, like, you you're top tier if you're a smallier. (00:23):
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Len [00:07:29]: Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't if you don't and then in Psalms, of course, they have all the language and and they the technical stuff like you were saying about the music business. They when they start talking that way, of course, they lose ordinary people because they just don't understand. And then they get intimidated. They worry that, do I how do I hold a glass? Should I be putting my nose right in the glass? Or, you know, they're just they need to be told. Very simple things. And then suddenly it's no longer, you know, some some way that they're gonna be embarrassed that they they realize that they can just be themselves. (00:24):
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Andrea Morris [00:08:03]: Instead of being self conscious about, oh, this is wine and I don't know what I'm doing. (00:25):
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Len [00:08:07]: Exactly. Yeah. (00:26):
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Andrea Morris [00:08:08]: Exactly. When was the first when did you first open the tasting room here in Jordan? (00:27):
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Len [00:08:13]: Here in Jordan was was, the year we opened our winery, which was 1987. I guess we made our first wine in '86, and we opened the tasting room in '87. (00:28):
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Andrea Morris [00:08:22]: Now is Cave Springs a family run business? (00:29):
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Len [00:08:24]: Oh, yes. Of course. It has been from the beginning. Yeah. Started at well, the winery started in that year in '86, that that first vintage. But we were growing grapes prior to that, always at the Cavespring site, and and that started in the early seventies. So our our vineyard there was one of the very first plantings of vidus vinifera in in Niagara. That was a period when the industry was very different, based on native North American grape varieties like Concord, Niagara, Fredonia, terrible wines. (00:30):
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Len [00:08:59]: And and so, you know, we were really in the vanguard of that first generation of of wineries that elevated the the, the grape growing aspect of the business. And so for about ten or fifteen years prior to opening the winery, I was I was a grape grower. I was figuring out how to grow the grapes that we now take for granted here (00:31):
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Andrea Morris [00:09:21]: in Niagara. And how many wines did they first release on on the first, when you guys first opened as a winery for tastings? (00:32):
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Len [00:09:28]: Here at Cave Spring, we we in our first vintage, we made 500 cases of Riesling and a smattering like a demijohns literally, like home winemakers would of Chardonnay and Gamay. That was it. So we probably not under a thousand cases in the in the first vintage. Wow. (00:33):
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Andrea Morris [00:09:46]: Yeah. And then it grew from there. (00:34):
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Len [00:09:47]: Right. But we we had more vineyards, more capacity in our vineyards than we had in the winery. So we started small, and we I I continued to sell grapes right right through to, I think the early nineties because we had more grapes in our vineyards than we had we had sales in the winery for for all those grapes. So I used to sell grapes in Cleveland, if you can believe that. Yay. There's a crazy doctor who loved to to make wine. He had a little bistro. Tom Wyckoff was his name. (00:35):
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Len [00:10:22]: Anyway, so I I I was selling grapes. Because they were so novel in those days, there were a lot of there was demand on the other side of the border. A lot of new small wineries opening up, but they couldn't get their hands on Chardonnay, Riesling, and so on. And so they I ended up selling quite a bit over there. (00:36):
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Andrea Morris [00:10:40]: There's a winery my my family lives in Vermillion, Ohio, and there's a winery there that's actually they'd they'd spent years planting and had been bringing grapes in from everywhere else. And now they decided that they they pulled apparently, they pulled all their vines because the deer kept eating them. (00:37):
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Len [00:10:54]: Oh, really? Is Vermillion along the Lake Erie shoreline? Yeah. Yeah. That's where the most of the industry is. (00:38):
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Andrea Morris [00:11:00]: Yeah. There's a there's quite a few wineries out in that area. (00:39):
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Len [00:11:02]: I know. (00:40):
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Andrea Morris [00:11:03]: Yeah. We'll have to eventually move the podcast to Ohio and do some Ohio wineries. But first we'll concentrate on (00:41):
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Len [00:11:09]: Sure. (00:42):
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Andrea Morris [00:11:10]: On the home on the home turf here. And you talked about Riesling as one of the first grapes and the first the first wines that you made. Is the the first thing we're gonna start tasting today is a bubbly. Is this a sparkling Riesling? (00:43):
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Len [00:11:21]: No. This one is, sparkling Chardonnay. (00:44):
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Andrea Morris [00:11:24]: Well, that's okay. (00:45):
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Len [00:11:26]: We do make a Riesling, but we, most of our our sparkling wine is is, is char is made is Chardonnay is the base. Chardonnay, of course, is also the base of most champagne. The the the grapes that are used in champagne are Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and a little bit of Pinot Meunier. Those are the three main varieties in in champagne. So we we experimented with many different varieties, but we've settled on Chardonnay for our for our primary, production of of sparkling wine because it just is is a real natural. Mhmm. And it give it gives the kind of complexity that you that people just love in champagne. And so that it's our go to grape for sparkling, but we do do a riesling. (00:46):
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Len [00:12:09]: We're now doing a rose made from Gamay as well. (00:47):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:12]: Oh, that's Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. Wow. (00:48):
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Len [00:12:15]: Mhmm. (00:49):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:16]: We were, we did an earlier podcast episode where we were at Bio Romano and had their Lambrusco. Oh, yeah. Which was which they can't call that (00:50):
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Len [00:12:26]: Right. (00:51):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:26]: Because of the region. But, it's that was the first time I'd had that in ages. (00:52):
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Len [00:12:31]: Mhmm. It (00:53):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:31]: was just really refreshing. (00:54):
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Len [00:12:33]: It's coming back Yeah. As a category in Italy. That the little bit of spritz and red. So that's the nice thing about wine. It's so there's so many diverse regions and products and, always something interesting to explore or try here, for example. (00:55):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:52]: Yeah. Yeah. I really am am enjoying this. It's very easy drinking. (00:56):
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Len [00:12:55]: Mhmm. (00:57):
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Andrea Morris [00:12:56]: The bubbles are very delicate. (00:58):
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Len [00:12:58]: That's the key with, bottle fermented. So the the that's the classic method. So the wine is is fermented in the bottle, as opposed to in a tank, which is the Prosecco, method. And, it it really shows in the in the size of the bubbles for sure. And just the the the great, texture the mouth feel and the and the ageability of it. I mean, this wine will will improve with with bottle age. I mean, we we we leave it for roughly three years on the leaves. That adds that layer of of complexity, a sort of texture that that you you feel on your tongue. (00:59):
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Len [00:13:38]: And and, you know, the the descriptors that are often used are things things like toast and and nuttiness, yeastiness. Those are all characters that come through in a bottle of fermented wine like this. (01:00):
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Andrea Morris [00:13:53]: And is it because it's the is it the traditional method where you're turning it? (01:01):
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Len [00:13:57]: Yeah. Well, that that turning of of the of the bottle is now done in a in a mechanical system that gradually tilts a cage of of a whole bunch of bottles all at the same time. Most most of that, occurs mechanically today. I mean, although you that rack behind you is is the traditional way of doing or this rack right here, these bottles are upside down, and so the idea in the old days was every every so often, you make a quarter turn to try to get the lees. Because remember, we we inoculate each bottle with with some some yeast. The the yeast begins the fermentation. Fermentation creates creates the the c o two or the or the spritz in the wine, and and then that gets captured inside each bottle. But because of all that occurring in the bottle, you get you get all this this turbidity and and all the the sediment that is generated by that process. (01:02):
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Len [00:14:56]: So you have to get it out of the bottle, and that's done in the old days, it was done by these (01:03):
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Andrea Morris [00:15:01]: A turn? (01:04):
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Len [00:15:02]: Occasional quarter turns, having the bottle upside down until all the sediment ends up in the neck of the bottle. And when you get it to that location, then then what you do is you you put it, you, immerse it in a in a fluid that will that will freeze it. So that that little bit of of sediment, we call it a plug, in the neck of the bottle, after that long process of of, you know, riddling, it's called. You it's frozen, and then the the the the bottle itself is the closure is a is what we call a crown cap, which is like a beer cap. And so the the the bottling line that that does all this begins by freezing it freezing the leaving the bottle upside down, freezing the neck so that the all of that sediment that's now in the neck, is congealed in the form of ice. So and the cap is removed. The pressure from the from the, fermentation pressure of the of the the, c o two in the bottle pops that (01:05):
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Andrea Morris [00:16:08]: Oh. (01:06):
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Len [00:16:09]: That thing out automatically. And then the the machine immediately puts cork in so that you don't lose the liquid. You just you just eject the plug of sediment and immediately put the cork in, and you have a finished product. (01:07):
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Andrea Morris [00:16:23]: That's really cool. This is the first time I've heard that story. So that's really, really interesting. (01:08):
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Len [00:16:27]: That's how it's made. That's how and and that was the method of of Dom Perignon. The French claim it was Dom Perignon. The Italians have their own monk who they say, you know, was ahead of Dom Perignon by whatever number of years. But that that method was discovered in effect probably by happenstance. Wow. They realized that that, if they that that that the trick was to capture the fermentation in a in a single bottle and then and then, obviously, get rid of the sediment that's created by fermentation in in the way I just described. (01:09):
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Andrea Morris [00:17:02]: Yeah. (01:10):
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Len [00:17:02]: And then the finished product is this glorious product because it's it's been because that liquid has been sitting on those leaves for all that time. The process of riddling only occurs at the very end of the process. For three years, the wine just sits on its side with all that sediment in the bottle. That's adding complexity to the flavor of the of the finished product. And then at the end, you you riddle it, and you get you, cork it, get rid of the crown cap, and put a cork in. And now you have the finished product. (01:11):
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Andrea Morris [00:17:34]: So how long do you riddle it for? Like (01:12):
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Len [00:17:37]: Riddling can occur in the old days, it would be for probably weeks or months as they they put bottles into the rack and then just do that quarter turn thing. These days with with what's called a giro pallet, the French invented it, of course. It's a big cage with bottles all oriented the same way, and it gradually over time turns ever so slowly so that all the sediment ends up in the necks of of all these bottles collected in one big cage. And then once they're upside down completely, it it's a matter of, I I think, maybe a week or two. Wow. And then you get all that sediment in the neck, and then you're ready to do put it on the bottom line. And it's it's fascinating thing to see. If you get a chance, go and have a look at at sparkling wine being bottled. (01:13):
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Len [00:18:27]: You see you see that plug getting ejected. You see the it all happens so fast. It has to. Right? Otherwise, you'll lose the liquid. And and so it all happens so fast that suddenly you go from a crown cap to a to a cork with with the the the wire that that holds the cork in place. All done almost instantaneously. (01:14):
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Andrea Morris [00:18:47]: And the result is (01:15):
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Len [00:18:48]: The result is this, which which is so much so much more complex and interesting than the the the tank version of the same thing. (01:16):
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Andrea Morris [00:18:57]: I think I'll actually enjoy it more now knowing so much more about the process because Exactly. I find it really fascinating. (01:17):
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Len [00:19:04]: Oh, remember where we started? In this in this case, it is interesting. Right? I mean, so people don't know. And why would you? I mean, it's a pretty technical thing. How many people have been to a bottling room where they're bottling champagne or or sparkling wine? So but it does it it it what what I like to talk about it because it it it it underscores just how complicated just how you like, this is one unique product. Each bottle fermented on its own is is, you know, subtly different from the next bottle. They're all made at the same time. They all come from the same place. But each individual bottle has its own fermentation, and that's what you're tasting. (01:18):
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Len [00:19:43]: You're tasting that individual fermentation. (01:19):
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Andrea Morris [00:19:46]: It's that it makes me so much more appreciative of the work that goes into it. Right. And it also explains when when people sometimes, you know, bitch about the prices of wine. Mhmm. Yeah. Just hearing all of the effort that goes into that. (01:20):
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Len [00:20:02]: Exactly. (01:21):
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Andrea Morris [00:20:03]: It to me, it makes it justify. Yes. (01:22):
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Len [00:20:06]: Yeah. Exactly. So what's called the Charmont method or the Prosecco method, which where that same thing happens in a tank, but you don't get that long period of sitting on the leaves and absorbing all those flavors from the dead yeast and all the rest. But it's still at least fermentation in the vessel and then bottled. That's that's sort of second best. And then the least desirable, of course, is just literally a liquid like a wine say a a still wine that is just injected with c o two. That's also possible. (01:23):
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Andrea Morris [00:20:40]: Mhmm. (01:24):
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Len [00:20:40]: Very industrial. I mean, that's that's wine made like Coke. So, you know, it's not really that interesting. (01:25):
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Andrea Morris [00:20:47]: Right. Like, just carbonated wine. (01:26):
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Len [00:20:49]: Yeah. Exactly. (01:27):
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Andrea Morris [00:20:51]: This is well (01:28):
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Len [00:20:52]: worth it. Natural carbonation. (01:29):
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Andrea Morris [00:20:54]: And this is the and what year is this? (01:30):
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Len [00:20:58]: It's a non vintage. Oh, non vintage? We always because we'll we'll we'll tend to make batches every every year. (01:31):
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Len [00:21:09]: And then we we because of the aging process, they all we we have an average age of three years, on the lease. So we lay the we make the wine. We've already made this year's, for example. You know, it's October, and we've made we've made in September, we made our base wine for for the for the sparkling wine. We'll when we bottle that wine, we'll add the yeast. When that wine is finished as a dry it'll be a dry wine. It'll be it'll be quite high in acid because because you pick the grapes, early. If you wanna preserve that acidity, that's part of the character of of the finished wine. (01:33):
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Len [00:21:46]: And then and then we'll we'll inoculate each bottle. So, we'll we'll add yeast to each individual bottle when we bottle it, and then we'll put a crown cap on, which is like a a beer cap, and and then we'll just put it away. We'll put it in the the same cages for three years. And then so it just sits but as it sits there and the and the yeast is in now in the in the wine, it'll start to ferment. And that fermentation creates the pressure. That's why the bottles are so heavy. The glass is much heavier. It has to withstand the pressure. (01:34):
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Andrea Morris [00:22:21]: It It made me wonder about the shape of the cork as well because the cork for champagne bottles is always different than (01:35):
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Len [00:22:26]: the cork (01:36):
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Andrea Morris [00:22:27]: of a regular wine bottle. (01:37):
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Len [00:22:28]: Yeah. That mushroom shape is I I, you know, I'm not sure whether it's tradition or whether there I'm sure there's a practical reason. Mushroom, is is in, make facilitates the the that wire that wire shroud that holds it in place. Right? Because, really, that cork would fly off the bottle if you didn't have that wire wrapped around it. Right. It's the wire that holds cork in place. And and the, the mushroom top, I think, gives makes that grip that that much easier, I think, for the wire. (01:38):
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Andrea Morris [00:23:02]: That makes a lot of sense. (01:39):
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Len [00:23:04]: Well, (01:40):
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Andrea Morris [00:23:05]: I hope that everyone got as much out of that as I did because I'm like, I can't wait to drink more bubbly. Yeah. But we're gonna talk move on and, talk about the Chardonnay, which is the wine that this came from. (01:41):
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Len [00:23:17]: Alright. The Chardonnay, I'm guessing, is is it the first, second wine in the flight? Second wine in the flight. Yeah. Because normally, we would start with Riesling, but that's (01:42):
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Andrea Morris [00:23:28]: We can start with Riesling. (01:43):
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Len [00:23:29]: Oh, let's do it. Let's Okay. We're we're on the subject of Chardonnay. So so this is the still version of of the sparkling wine we just tried. And and this this is the '21 vintage of Chardonnay, and this is our CSV, so it's our our our top wine. It's it's the best the best, of the best. Let's put it that way. In in both cases, the Riesling and the Chardonnay. (01:44):
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Len [00:23:54]: So Chardonnay, we've been growing as long as as any grape in in Niagara. And and, you know, it's the grape of burgundy, of champagne. And, you know, so it it's a natural for us because we have very similar growing conditions to that part of France north Northeast for in the case of Chardonnay, in both cases, really, of the North Northeast part of France. So it's a northern latitude. We're actually further south here in Niagara than they are in in either Champaign or Burgundy, believe it or not. Really? Yeah. We are we are on the forty third parallel, which in Europe lines up with Rioja and Tuscany, believe it or not. (01:45):
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Andrea Morris [00:24:35]: Oh. (01:46):
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Len [00:24:36]: Yeah. So that's a little fact that people don't appreciate and which which is why we, you know, we, early on realized there's no reason why we can't grow these grapes. So so that's where Chardonnay comes from. (01:47):
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Andrea Morris [00:24:48]: Kind of buttery on the nose, I find. (01:48):
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Len [00:24:50]: Yeah. That's that's what you expect from a Chardonnay, and and oak is really what you're getting, I would say more than butter. But there's probably butteriness comes from malolactic fermentation, which is a a a a secondary form of fermentation. The primary fermentation that I've been talking about in the case of the sparkling wine is a conversion of sugar to alcohol. It's a pretty straightforward process. The, secondary form form of fermentation I'm talking about here is malolactic. So that that's that's a process that converts malic acid into lactic acid. So two forms of acid go from one to the other. (01:49):
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Len [00:25:30]: Think, malic is is the acid associated with green apples. Lactic Milk. Milk. Right? So that lactic character, you said butter, that sort of range of flavors comes from that. And and and and the the, what I call the sort of nuttiness or you can call it, sometimes, caramel or or the various descriptors for for oak. Coconut is another one that's you hear a lot. Those are all flavor components that come from the oak, but the butteriness comes from Malawi. (01:50):
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Andrea Morris [00:26:09]: That makes sense. (01:51):
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Len [00:26:12]: Now this wine Really lovely. Soft. Again, kind of a, I call it caramel on the finish. (01:52):
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Andrea Morris [00:26:22]: Very well so. Yeah. (01:53):
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Len [00:26:23]: Coming from that. Remember, this this wine was born in oak. It was fermented in a barrel. Now we don't use a a lot of new oak. We try to dial back the amount of oak that we that we put, our wines through, but it's very much in evidence here. The the goal is to create a style of wine that that, is very much like people, love in in the case of white burgundy. White burgundy is kind of the gold standard for Chardonnay. And we can we can approach that level of of of of of of complexity and and subtlety and and just overall flavor that that they get there. (01:54):
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Andrea Morris [00:27:06]: It doesn't to me, this is a very complex Chardonnay. Because sometimes they're they just seem somewhat flat to me. Mhmm. But this has I keep tasting more every time I have (01:55):
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Len [00:27:19]: a sip. That's the sign of a of a wine you you wanna drink because it you keep going back to it. It keeps and it'll evolve in the glass too. (01:56):
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Andrea Morris [00:27:30]: Lucas is contemplating Chardonnay. (01:57):
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Len [00:27:33]: Yeah. So it's a it it's a contemplative like, all great wines should be contemplative. The wines you wanna go back to and, you know, a new flavor suddenly appears and you you think about it and you you have another sip and confirm that that's what you what you just tasted. And that's all that that that's what I I've I keep using the word complex. That's why. Because because when you when when there's just one experience after another flooding your palate, you know you're dealing with something serious. (01:58):
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Andrea Morris [00:28:05]: Because I've had some Chardonnays that have that really, like, that really have that that this one I had butter on the nose, but not so much butter when I was tasting it. But the caramel aspect I found on the second sip really came through. (01:59):
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Len [00:28:17]: Yeah. (02:00):
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Andrea Morris [00:28:18]: And then there's a little bit of the green apple (02:01):
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Len [00:28:20]: Mhmm. (02:02):
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Andrea Morris [00:28:21]: And I'm like really every sip I was tasting something just slightly different. (02:03):
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Len [00:28:26]: And that's what wine writers try to capture when you read those flowery descriptions. Right? And they go go on and on. They not just flowers, but they talk about individual types of flowers or individual types of fruit, you know, whether whether it's, citric or tropical or and then they have all the and so you try to imagine, you know, you mostly, you read a review like that. You don't even maybe you haven't even tasted half the things they're talking about. But these experts are pulling all those those, you know, hints out of out of the glass and and writing them down. (02:04):
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Andrea Morris [00:28:59]: Sometimes I think those reviews can be somewhat intimidating though because you're like, I especially if you're if you like like they're like, oh, I find this on the nose and then you smell it and you're like, I don't smell any of that. But it's because everyone's palate and everyone's (02:05):
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Len [00:29:13]: Yeah. (02:06):
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Andrea Morris [00:29:13]: Everyone has a whole different setup and (02:07):
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Len [00:29:17]: You also it it also is a discipline and I and we've all been humbled by this, in in the in the business because years ago, when when we, opened the restaurant and and we had we had our chef had a great idea. He put together a whole bunch of spices, put them in a a white styrofoam cup covered in in, tinfoil with and poked holes in it. And so the the challenge was, okay. What what do you smell? And you just pick up that cup. You smell through the holes in the in in the foil. And, you know, is it oregano? Is it is it, all these different spices? Tarragon or Tarragon. Right? Like rosemary. It's so hard to isolate which is which. (02:08):
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Len [00:30:05]: Coconut I mean, things that you think you know, when you when you're blind and you're just smelling, very often you get it wrong. And that's to get it right, you have to repeat it, and it's like building a muscle. You need to you need to really focus and and train yourself to identify those individual flavors. (02:09):
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Andrea Morris [00:30:25]: I have a friend that often comes comes out here to do wine tastings, and she's she'll know if she likes a wine immediately from the smell. (02:10):
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Len [00:30:33]: That's the understand that most of our of our, sense of taste is olfactory. It comes from our nose, not from our palate. And the way to understand that is, number one, if you have a cold, forget it. I mean, as a winemaker, you are useless if you have a cold. But just plug your nose and and and taste the wine, and then and and then taste it without plugging your nose, and you'll see the difference. Because your nose is is absorbing all of these volatile, elements that are in the wine. You don't even that's happening unconsciously almost, but but that is where most of the the flavor that you perceive, is delivered. (02:11):
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Andrea Morris [00:31:17]: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. (02:12):
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Len [00:31:18]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, (02:13):
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Andrea Morris [00:31:20]: now we're gonna move on to (02:14):
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Len [00:31:21]: the Riesling. Yeah. So Riesling is our is our it it's the wine that that most people associate our winery with, partly because we we just it it sort of evolved that way. I mean, we our site is really beautiful for Riesling, so that that's a big part of it. And, you know, it's a as you know, it right right in the shadow of the escarpment with all of that minerality coming out of the the that wall of rock behind us, it's also in our soil. So limestone, sandstone, shale, all of those sedimentary rocks that are in the escarpment, they were also they they've been eroded over the millennia, and they end up also in our soil. And that minerality that comes from all those rocks that are mixed in our soil shows through especially in Riesling. (02:15):
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Andrea Morris [00:32:11]: And you have several vineyards of Rieslings. Right? (02:16):
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Len [00:32:14]: Oh, yeah. Lots. This is the CSG, which is our top Riesling. So we we make this wine by selecting there's only two or three spots on the farm that are our go to places. Usually, they're among the oldest finds. And then and then we also we're over the years, we've identified certain sites that just seem to be naturals for certain varieties, and and so we're doing that. We've done that with Riesling for decades. So we've kind of narrowed it down to two or three blocks of Riesling that we know every year are gonna deliver what we're looking for. (02:17):
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Len [00:32:50]: And so we start the in the spring, we start with those same spots, those same vines, and we'll prune them accordingly. So we'll we'll dial back the amount of fruit that we're gonna get. We don't want to over crop, especially this wine. We want because we wanna get a maximum flavor. So that means making sure that the the yield is is reasonable to low so that we get we get full flavor development in the fruit. And then we farm them all through the season. We give them extra TLC that we wouldn't give to all the other Rieslings. This is the one at the top top of the heap, so to speak. (02:18):
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Len [00:33:26]: So it gets the most TLC throughout the season. And then in the end, we between the two or three, blocks that we're kind of targeting to make this wine, we'll take we'll pick the best of the best, and that becomes the CSV. (02:19):
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Andrea Morris [00:33:41]: That and I've got I've got a citrus nose on this one. (02:20):
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Len [00:33:44]: Yeah. I mean, the the the the trademark descriptor for reasoning from especially from the beansill benches is grapefruit, but with citric generally, lemon lime (02:21):
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Andrea Morris [00:33:54]: Lemon definitely. Grapefruit. First first lemon on the tongue. (02:22):
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Len [00:33:58]: And that's the thing about riesling. Now the this is the total opposite of the wine we just had. It's unadorned. No oak. No there if there's malolactic, it's a tiny amount. Understand that all all of our wines are are naturally fermented. We're not we're not adding commercial yeast to to start the fermentation. We're allowing the natural yeast that occurs on the grapes, or even ambient here in the winery. (02:23):
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Len [00:34:24]: That's what gets the fermentation started, and and and we we just allow it to occur. So that's quite a different thing from most commercial wineries. Yeah. But, the the, the thing with riesling is it's stainless steel fermented. We'll do a little bit of oak, in this wine especially, but it's it's very old oak. So we're we're not looking for the the (02:24):
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Andrea Morris [00:34:47]: Punch of a new oak? No. (02:25):
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Len [00:34:48]: We're not or that that caramel and and nuttiness and all those those characters you get out of of newer oak. The the the old oak barrels are really just there to give us a more oxidative like, allow a little bit of air, into the into the vessel during from during and after fermentation. And that changes the character of the of the wine a little bit, but it it doesn't impede that fruitiness that you're picking up coming out of the glass right away. (02:26):
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Andrea Morris [00:35:18]: And it's interesting when you talk about this was as the CSB, because I've had your Adam's step Riesling, which is slightly sweeter (02:27):
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Len [00:35:27]: Right. (02:28):
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Andrea Morris [00:35:27]: And less citrusy. Yeah. Does that have to do with the terrain? (02:29):
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Len [00:35:31]: Well, it's a it's a specific site, the Adam Steppe, but it's also it was the first wine that we started experimenting with natural fermentation. But the residual sugar, has to be complemented by higher acidity because if you're gonna because if you don't have if you don't have a nice crisp acidity and you leave residual sugar in the wine, then then, you'll if you don't have acidity, then it comes across as as sort of flabby or or, cloying on the palate. You don't want that. So the the the adiab step might have higher acid than this wine. That might be one characteristic that makes it different. But generally speaking, we're talking about a family of wines here. We're talking about you know, if I if to use this metaphor, these are all my children. They they look similar, but they're different, and you can appreciate both. (02:30):
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Len [00:36:30]: Yeah. These imagine these are, like, they're all the same age, though. Right? They're they're all from the same vintage. So it, it's like, you know, you I've got quintuplets of rieslings. And so they're all they they they look like they belong together, but each one of them is an individual. I guess that's what I'm saying about about the difference between the CSV and the, Adam Steppes. (02:31):
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Andrea Morris [00:36:52]: And when you here at at the winery, do you have specific winemakers for specific types of wine? Or is it (02:32):
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Len [00:37:00]: I mean, from for decades, when we started, it was Angelo Van. He just retired a few years ago, and he took on Gabe DeMarco as really as a as a student first and then and then as a, really, an acolyte. And then and then we decided that Gabe was the guy that was gonna succeed Ange. So he had about a ten year apprenticeship, going to the vineyard every day with Ange, making the wine with him every day. And so now but it's always one winemaker. Whether whether it's Riesling, Chardonnay, Rose, the reds, whatever, they're all making making the one person, I mean, charge. I mean, obviously, it's a whole team. Right. (02:33):
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Len [00:37:41]: But but, yeah, one winemaker for all the different wines. We don't we're not we're not that specialized. (02:34):
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Andrea Morris [00:37:48]: Gotcha. Well, that reasoning was very, very enjoyable. Mhmm. What would you pair that with? (02:35):
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Len [00:37:55]: Well, it's a sipper for starters for sure. You can you can do that. For me, I (02:36):
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Andrea Morris [00:38:01]: would pair it with a sunny day. But (02:37):
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Len [00:38:04]: Well, I mean, for reasonably, any white meat, for sure, the classic, match with Riesling in places like Germany or Alsace would be, sausage, like a German white white meat German sausage with sauerkraut. It's a match made in heaven. The the, the the French and the Germans both make that lovely onion tart. It's a flatbread, in in in, in France, it's called, what's the French word for it? A tart flambe. And in Germany, it's, what is it? I forget. No. No. Not. (02:38):
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Len [00:38:46]: The Germans have make the same thing. That's another it it has a little bit of ham. Like, it could be, like, a prosciutto in in Italy would be called prosciutto. And that that's another great match with Riesling. But pork, any pork served any way is my go to, choice is Riesling. And then and then Fish. Asian, any like, whether it's it's Chinese, Vietnamese, any any Asian cuisine with high spice, it's it's the best choice always. Better than and certainly, a red wine doesn't really work well with that cuisine, but Riesling is really the best choice. (02:39):
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Len [00:39:30]: Maybe Gewurztraminer is (02:40):
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Andrea Morris [00:39:31]: I was just gonna say Gewurztraminer (02:41):
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Len [00:39:33]: for I would the Thai food. Yeah. But Riesling is is is really what I want with any anything Asian. (02:42):
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Andrea Morris [00:39:40]: That's good to know. Mhmm. I'll keep that in mind. And now, we're moving on to something a little more colorful, which would be the Rose. (02:43):
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Len [00:39:49]: Yeah. And you're a fan of this wine. (02:44):
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Andrea Morris [00:39:51]: I am a fan of your Rose. (02:45):
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Len [00:39:53]: We're now into, another grape, Cabernet Franc. So our all of our roses are made from Cabernet Franc only. We've over the years, we've experimented with Gamay, with Pinot Noir. We've sort of settled on Cab Franc. It's also our our choice for big reds, but but it it makes a lovely rose. (02:46):
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Andrea Morris [00:40:15]: So is there a preference as to why you would pick Cabernet as opposed to a Gamay for your for the for the rose? (02:47):
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Len [00:40:26]: I can remember years ago. My my read on a Gamay rose was always the same. I I I'd sit my nose in the glass, and I'd say baloney. And I tell Angela, I said, I I don't know. That's what I get every time. I I smell Gamay Rose. So, like, I I don't think the grape no. That may have been some quirk of how we were making it. (02:48):
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Len [00:40:49]: Who knows? But the thing about about Cab Franc is it has this sort of beautiful you have to think about it in the in the various ways you make Cab Franc. Like, if it's made as a but but I think that when you think of the classic Cab Franc as a table wine, you think of strawberry, you think of of red fruits, (02:49):
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Andrea Morris [00:41:12]: Cherries. (02:50):
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Len [00:41:12]: Cherries. And and so it it really does have a fruitiness to it. And I think it's that that we're trying to capture in in the in the rose, but it makes makes, makes it easy to make. Because in in rose, you want you want fresh fruit (02:51):
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Andrea Morris [00:41:29]: Crisp, I think. (02:52):
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Len [00:41:30]: And crisp too. Yeah. So acidity is important. And so we pick it a little bit, obviously, less ripe than we would the the full bodied bread that we make. So that's one thing. I mean, if you think of I don't know if have you ever smelled, Cabernet Franc ice wine or late harvest? (02:53):
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Andrea Morris [00:41:46]: Yes. (02:54):
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Len [00:41:47]: Strawberries. I mean, for me, that's the descriptor beyond all others that that it that it evokes, and that's a really concentrated version of that grape when you when you freeze it on the vine or partially freeze it. So I would say that, that that's what we're trying to capture. We're trying to capture that fruitiness in the rose because that's what it's about. It's about, you know, a summer sipper that's that's got great, appeal as a because of because of the way it smells. It's crisp on on the palate. It's refreshing. I mean, I I I go I even even, with red meat, whatever, in the summertime, when it's hot, I find red wine tiring on the palate. (02:55):
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Len [00:42:31]: So I go I go to rose all the time. It's With a burger. Exactly. Yeah. But in my house, it's a problem because my wife doesn't like rose when when the meal calls for a full bodied red. So we sometimes open two bottles. But in for me, it's a question of temperature. When when it's warm out, even now in the fall, it's still lovely. (02:56):
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Len [00:42:52]: And, we did it just the other day. You know, I opened the rose rose and and and I opened a Cab Franc red you know, full bodied red wine for her or or Pinot Noir. I forget which it was. But, anyway, so that that I think that's that's the reason that Cab Franc works so well as a rose here here in Niagara. And, we settled on it. Remember, so much trial and error in our business. I mean, we've been at it for almost forty years, and you learn over it but we only get to make wine once a year. So our our our learning curve is very long because, you know, you you make it this year. (02:57):
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Len [00:43:31]: If you if you wanna explore something different, it'll wait another year before you can even try it. So that sort of thing, makes it, difficult to get to the place where you say, okay. This is the way it should be. And and we've we got there over over a course of many years with with with Cabernet Franc as as the base for rose. (02:58):
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Andrea Morris [00:43:55]: Because I know a lot of people mix Gamay with Cabernet as well. Or some people (02:59):
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Len [00:44:00]: or some people make make rose by by, adding white wine to to to to bring the color down. I mean, there's lots of ways to make rose. Skin contact makes it this color, though. (03:00):
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Andrea Morris [00:44:12]: Yes. So we Just a little darker than a traditional French rose. (03:01):
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Len [00:44:16]: Yeah. And we're we're that's that's one of the things so much so much of it is in the appearance. And and and the the fashion today is a very light color, so we're we're, mindful of that. And it's not it doesn't change the flavor a lot. So we're we're aiming for that that very that sort of blush color (03:02):
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Len [00:44:43]: Because that that's what the the the customer wants today. They they're they're not they don't they're they're not a in fact fact, I I was in the discussion with a French winemaker, last spring. We were visiting a winery in France. We have an import agency. I was visiting with the winemaker, and he told me a story about his brother who was selling rose in in New York. And his brother opened up or had the newest vintage and showed showed the guy, his his importer, the the he said, here. Try some. And the guy said, no. (03:04):
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Len [00:45:15]: I don't wanna try it. He said, what do you mean? You haven't tasted it. He said, I don't have to taste it. I said, what are you talking about? He said, too dark. I can't sell it at that color. Really? So this is a guy who's in the business selling this particular producer's wine, and he's telling him, I don't even wanna taste it because I know I can't sell it because the color's too dark. (03:05):
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Andrea Morris [00:45:37]: That's interesting because I have had roses in this region (03:06):
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Len [00:45:41]: Mhmm. (03:07):
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Andrea Morris [00:45:42]: That are darker and that have much more of a raspberry kind of flavor to them. And, and it's interesting because they're also on the sweeter side. (03:08):
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Len [00:45:52]: Well, that can't have them. That that but they don't necessarily go together. Right. Because because it's dark doesn't mean it has to be sweet. Right. But but so those could be winemaking preferences. Or it's (03:09):
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Andrea Morris [00:46:02]: kind of like the snobbiness that we were talking about earlier about wine? (03:10):
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Len [00:46:05]: Yes. So but it this is fashion too. I mean, you know, is your shirt buttoned down or or is is it a loose all these things come and go, bell bottoms, tight pants. It changes over time. (03:11):
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Andrea Morris [00:46:18]: Our business Skinny ties. (03:12):
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Len [00:46:19]: Yeah. All of that. All of that. And and our business has that component of that. Some of us like to try to stick to classic style or or or a house style that that that we our customers associate us with. But there's there's always the pull of fashion in in wine like anything else. And today, that fashion is for lighter colored roses. (03:13):
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Andrea Morris [00:46:42]: And this isn't the lightest rose I've ever seen. No. But you had a rose one year it was many years ago, and it kind of had like a cotton candy Mhmm. Kind of smell to it. Mhmm. Like, I I remember Didi actually told me, she's like smells like cotton candy and I like I really got that from it. And it wasn't, but it wasn't really overly sweet to the taste. Yeah. (03:14):
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Andrea Morris [00:47:05]: But it just had that that Yeah. Aroma of sweetness that just hit you. (03:15):
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Len [00:47:08]: But if you it was probably Angelo that made that wine. If you told him it smelled like cotton candy, he would be mortally offended. Because because that that is not a Rose. Or a wine. Like, that that is not a flavor A jolly rancher. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want your cotton candy is one of the descriptors, for example, for Beaujolais Nouveau. (03:16):
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Len [00:47:31]: It's as a disparaging descriptor. (03:17):
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Andrea Morris [00:47:33]: I've never had that with the Beaujolais. (03:18):
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Len [00:47:35]: Yeah. Well, the the the process they use, which is carbonic maceration, tends to emphasize that sort of candied character. But but, but serious, quote, unquote, winemakers scorn terms like or or flavors like cotton candy. (03:19):
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Andrea Morris [00:47:54]: Well, this rose has that that nice touch of strawberry. (03:20):
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Len [00:47:58]: Yeah. And that's what we're aiming for. (03:21):
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Andrea Morris [00:48:00]: But without being sweet, it's just (03:22):
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Len [00:48:03]: Right. (03:23):
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Andrea Morris [00:48:03]: It I can just sit there in in a backyard on a hot summer day, chill this a little bit. (03:24):
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Len [00:48:10]: Right. (03:25):
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Andrea Morris [00:48:10]: Drink this, enjoy it with even with the charcuterie board. (03:26):
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Len [00:48:13]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, no question. Or burger, you mentioned. Burger. (03:27):
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Andrea Morris [00:48:17]: Yeah. Yeah. Very versatile. There's never a wrong time for rose. (03:28):
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Len [00:48:21]: No. And it's become a big, big category. And when we started making it way back in the nineties, a dry rose because in that day, fashion was white Zinfandel, if you remember, which was really sweet, and cloying, but a kind of introductory wine for people who weren't wine drinkers. Fair enough. But we made a we made a dry right from the start, and and, now it's become very fashionable around the world. And and, so but it but it it can be made, seriously as a wine that you take very seriously, and they they don't even age in the bottle. And most most roses are really made to enjoy in their youth, released early in the spring of the following year after they're made, and enjoy them for that season, and then move on the next year to the newest rose. That that's kind of a formula for rose consumption because it's it's not a generally a wine for aging. (03:29):
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Len [00:49:21]: But there are some wine. We make our state rose will benefit from bottle age. Has a little bit more weight on the palate, more complexity. So that for the person who's looking for that, we we have that too. Too. (03:30):
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Andrea Morris [00:49:32]: What's the longest that you would age a rose? (03:31):
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Len [00:49:34]: Good question. I really don't know the answer because we haven't really, we've only been making the state. That would be the wine that we would age. Now that's under under cork. This wine is is under screw cap because it's intended to be consumed early. Right. But, so to age your wine, you need to have it under cork to get the proper evolution. But we've only been making the estate rose for a few years. (03:32):
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Len [00:50:01]: I I it's a good question. I I'll I'll try to get that answer for you, but you have to give me a few more years. (03:33):
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Andrea Morris [00:50:07]: Okay. I wouldn't know because my roses don't tend to last that long. So I, you know Yeah. (03:34):
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Len [00:50:13]: Well, you need to line them up and and and and go do a vertical tasting and see what the evolution is from bottle age. Because that's really what you're trying to understand. (03:35):
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Andrea Morris [00:50:22]: Well, yours rose is really one of my favorites in the region. It's got it's it's never let me down. (03:36):
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Len [00:50:28]: Mhmm. Oh, that's nice to meet you. (03:37):
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Andrea Morris [00:50:29]: I've always found it very welcoming and Yeah. Very drinkable and really pairs with so many different things. (03:38):
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Len [00:50:35]: It's exactly what we're trying to do. So that's that's high praise. Thank you. (03:39):
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Andrea Morris [00:50:38]: Well done, man. And now we're gonna move along to reds. (03:40):
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Len [00:50:42]: Yeah. So the first one I guess is the Pinot Noir oh, he's got list here for me. The Pinot Noir Estate 2021. By the way, that rose was the '23, so young. (03:41):
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Andrea Morris [00:50:53]: Oh, very young. Yeah. But it you know what? It didn't taste lots a lot of times I find that young roses are very thin, but that wasn't that the case at all. It was still very fruit forward (03:42):
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Len [00:51:05]: Yeah. (03:43):
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Andrea Morris [00:51:05]: But without being cloying or without being sweet. It was just Yeah. (03:44):
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Len [00:51:08]: I just realized I misspoke. It is the estate that we we were tasting. Oh. So it's The one (03:45):
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Andrea Morris [00:51:12]: that we could age. (03:46):
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Len [00:51:13]: Yes. Exactly. So that's a wine. If you if you wanna put it down and and see what happens, that that would be the one to choose. (03:47):
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Andrea Morris [00:51:21]: I'd have to have it in an ember room of my house, but I don't know how to add that access. (03:48):
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Len [00:51:26]: Yeah. (03:49):
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Andrea Morris [00:51:27]: No. That was a really, really great rose. So now we're on to Pinot. (03:50):
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Len [00:51:32]: So this next wine is 21 Pinot Estate. So the Estate wines, the ones that we call Estate are generally the the top tier of that grape variety, with the exception of the CSVs, which we of which we make only the Riesling and the Chardonnay, and that that's a a notch above the estate. So here we have we we we haven't ever made a CSV Pinot Noir because we're still learning grape. But, this is the the highest expression of our Pinot currently, and and it's from a vintage, which was, shall we say, challenging. You remember this the the fall of twenty one? (03:51):
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Andrea Morris [00:52:12]: Rain. Rain. Rain. (03:52):
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Len [00:52:13]: Yes. Yes. Now the good thing the good news with Pinot is that it's the earliest ripener. So we were actually able to get Pinot picked before the skies opened up. So so these both of these wines really surprised me, coming from that vintage because as winemakers, all we remember is what you said, rain, rain. (03:53):
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Andrea Morris [00:52:32]: Rain, rain. Yeah. (03:54):
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Len [00:52:33]: We literally could not even drive tractors in the vineyard. It was it's the it was the wettest harvest I have ever experienced in forty years as a grape grower. (03:55):
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Andrea Morris [00:52:43]: And people lost a lot of grapes that year. (03:56):
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Len [00:52:45]: They did. Yeah. So that that comes back to how you start the season. I mean, what we do is we plan for the worst, and we hope for the best. That means we reduce crop. We do all the things necessary, assuming that's the worst is gonna happen during the season. And then if if that doesn't happen, we're gonna make glorious wine. If it does happen, we're ready for it. (03:57):
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Len [00:53:06]: And in this case, we were able to make this wine, which I I find astonishing. (03:58):
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Andrea Morris [00:53:11]: It's a really deep color for a rose. (03:59):
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Len [00:53:14]: Oh, it's not a rose. (04:00):
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Andrea Morris [00:53:15]: I mean, I'm sorry. Not a rose. For a pinot. Yeah. (04:01):
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Len [00:53:17]: I was gonna say, but it's a pinot. So It is (04:02):
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Andrea Morris [00:53:19]: a it is a deep color for a pinot. Yeah. (04:03):
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Len [00:53:21]: If you if we looked at at at our entry level pinot, which you can buy in the LCBO, it wouldn't have this deeper color. The reason for that is that remember, it's just like I was saying about the Riesling in the shark. We pick the block that's gonna be the Pinot Pinot Noir Estate. I can tell if you if we were at the vineyard, I could point out the the two spots where that this wine comes from. And then we we prune them more severely. We we we, thin the crop more. We we completely take all the leaves off in the fruiting zone so they're getting maximum sun exposure. They're getting maximum, aeration so that there's less likelihood of of, mold and mildew, taking hold in the fruiting zone. (04:04):
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Len [00:54:02]: We do all all the things that lead to this, which is this the color you're looking at. (04:05):
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Andrea Morris [00:54:08]: It's got kind of a plum (04:06):
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Len [00:54:09]: Yeah. That's a sort of Classic descriptor for, you know (04:07):
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Andrea Morris [00:54:13]: The plum? Yep. And the plum on the nose for sure. (04:08):
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Len [00:54:17]: And, it's it's more concentrated. You're you're the the the color is repeated in in the nose. Right? You you it's it's not as as as sort of fresh and delicate as you would expect from a a a Pinot. It's, is more in there. You wanna go back to it again and again because you're exploring flavors that are just sort of emerging. (04:09):
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Andrea Morris [00:54:41]: They're coming like bubbling. (04:10):
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Len [00:54:42]: Yeah. Yeah. They're they're there. You know they're there, but you have to go back to it and figure out what it is they're telling you because because there's there's there's just more stuffing in this wine. Yeah. And it it's because of the way we farm the grapes, and we choose the vines. (04:11):
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Andrea Morris [00:54:57]: Because I don't taste plum at all. More of like I I hesitate to say cranberry, but it's kind of because it's a little on the tart. Mhmm. There's a little tartness coming in. Yep. So it could be cranberry ish, but it's nice fruit forward, but without being like that punch in your face that I get from a Cabernet. (04:12):
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Len [00:55:16]: Right. Now it's not that that punch is probably tannin you're talking about, which is really, you know, it coats your tongue. It's like sandpaper on your tongue. Yeah. There's a little bit of that here, though. You don't expect tannin so much in In opinion. You know, and yet it's here. So this wine the other thing about it, it's a baby. (04:13):
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Len [00:55:35]: 21. It's been in the bottle for a few years, but, you know, for a wine of of this caliber, it really needs bottle age. If you could come back to this wine in, say, five or ten years It's I'm just saying. I said if. If. If. It'll evolve in the bottle, and it'll have there'll be whole new layers of flavor that come from that process that you're not getting here. Here, you're getting forward fruit. (04:14):
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Len [00:56:09]: You're getting a little bit of tannin. (04:15):
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Len [00:56:11]: Those tannins will soften. The fruit will evolve. You'll get more more complex, not aromatics, but but sort of bouquet characteristics. So then then you're gonna be into the realm of things like like, sweaty saddle and barnyard is for for Pinot, that's the that's the descriptor that they always use. (04:17):
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Andrea Morris [00:56:33]: Barnyard. Barnyard? (04:18):
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Len [00:56:34]: Yeah. Literally. Literally. Barnyard. And I see the thought going above your head there, and I know what you're thinking. And so so let me tell you this story because I remember being at a tasting of Pinot, and there was a a, the fellow leading the tasting was reading from an old old English wine critic who was had this this beautiful description of what Pinot Noir tasted and smelled like. And it went on for a whole paragraph and all every floral image you can imagine. And at the end of it all, this long poem to Di Pinot, he ended up by saying, in a word, to be truly a Pinot Noir, a wine must taste and smell like shit. (04:19):
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Len [00:57:23]: So it's that earthiness. Barnyard means earthy. It mean it means a little bit of that sort of (04:20):
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Andrea Morris [00:57:31]: I kinda feel like hay. Like, that like the smell of (04:21):
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Len [00:57:34]: hay and smell Like in the spring when the farmers are spreading manure, it's yes. It's it's not a it's an off putting smell, but it's also sweet there's a sweetness to it. (04:22):
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Andrea Morris [00:57:43]: There is a sweetness to it. (04:23):
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Len [00:57:44]: To it. Because yeah. So that's I think what Barnyard what they're trying to capture or or connote when they say barnyard with, (04:24):
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Andrea Morris [00:57:52]: you know Earthiness with sweetness. (04:25):
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Len [00:57:53]: Earthiness with sweetness. Kind of (04:26):
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Andrea Morris [00:57:55]: peaty, like the peatiness of (04:27):
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Len [00:57:57]: Yes. Well, yeah. Yeah. But that sounds a little (04:28):
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Andrea Morris [00:57:59]: more like Scotch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I know because where I live, there's vineyards all around me. And I get that smell in the spring (04:29):
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Len [00:58:08]: Right. (04:30):
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Andrea Morris [00:58:08]: And and the end of the fall as well. (04:31):
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Len [00:58:10]: I remember having a conversation with a farmer years ago who taught was it was can you believe this? Only farmers would have a conversation like that. Where we were making distinctions between chicken shit, cow shit, pig shit. And the manure, when it's spread in the field, you you you know which is which. Right. And we had this whole it was like we were talking about wine. So so that's a a long digression on barnyard. But Pinot, the classic descriptor for Pinot is barnyard, which means earthiness, a complexity that's almost impossible to capture in words. And that's why it's this is the go to grape for all winemakers worldwide. (04:32):
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Len [00:58:56]: Every winemaker wants to make a grape Pinot. Burgundy is the holy grail. Red Burgundy is the holy grail. (04:33):
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Andrea Morris [00:59:01]: Well, I feel like the bench area is so great for Pinot (04:34):
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Len [00:59:04]: as well. Yeah. I (04:35):
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Andrea Morris [00:59:05]: We have some spectacular Pinot in this area. Yeah. (04:36):
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Len [00:59:08]: So so that barnyard but the point I wanna make is that it comes with bottle age because because you you we're getting this is a baby. It's 20 one vintage, so that's three years ago. It's still a baby. This wine will not come into its own for another five or ten years, unfortunately. So you're just gonna have to buy a case and lock it in your cellar and leave it there, come back to it in five or ten years. (04:37):
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Andrea Morris [00:59:34]: To lock it in your cellar. Because if it was in mine, I know I'm gonna I know I'm gonna drink it. (04:38):
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Len [00:59:39]: That's the unfortunately, wines of this caliber, they need they need that extra in a bottle age. And and if you give it give them that, it's it's it really does reward. (04:39):
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Andrea Morris [00:59:52]: It's really it though I will say it tastes beautiful right now. (04:40):
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Len [00:59:57]: It's true. True. Yes. (04:41):
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Andrea Morris [00:59:59]: But I could have this at Thanksgiving with turkey and be very happy. (04:42):
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Len [01:00:02]: Yes. Agreed. We're and we're selling it for that reason. Yeah. But if you want to, understand what it can become, then then you need to give it bottle age. (04:43):
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Andrea Morris [01:00:16]: Then I'll come see you in five years. (04:44):
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Len [01:00:19]: Yeah. While while we're on that subject, I'm I know I'm probably over overstaying my walk (04:45):
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Andrea Morris [01:00:24]: Oh, no. It's fine. We have another bottle to get. We have another Okay. (04:46):
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Len [01:00:26]: Well, we can it'll be the same subject with the next one. Do you wanna go to that one next? Or Yeah. So the next one is Cabernet Franc, same vintage, '21. And it's, I've been talking about it with in in the case No. (04:47):
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Andrea Morris [01:00:40]: This one has a very peppery nose. Yeah. (04:48):
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Len [01:00:42]: This is yeah. That that's a characteristic we're looking for. This is the dolomite. I didn't pour the estate because it's available, but it is so tight right now. By tight, I mean, it's tannic. It's closed a bit. It it it we would probably be best to to decant it and leave it for an hour or even overnight before we taste it. So I I just wanted to have something that was more approachable, right now, and that's this wine. (04:49):
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Len [01:01:10]: So this is the dolomite, which is the the second level below the the estate. (04:50):
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Andrea Morris [01:01:17]: What does the dolomite mean? Is that the soil? (04:51):
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Len [01:01:19]: The the word is is really derived from the dolomitic limestone. So the limestone that we that that that forms the escarpment, at least the cap cap rock of the escarpment is dolomitic limestone. And and, so we just chose that as as as the the, descriptor for this line of wines that we make. We just wanted to connote the fact that, our wines are grown in soils that are full of of Minerals. Minerals and lime specifically limestone. And around the world, limestone is much prized as as a site for for, grape growing. And so, we just we do we we we're celebrating the fact that our site is is full of limestone. So Cabernet Franc, I mentioned earlier. (04:52):
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Len [01:02:09]: It of course, this is one of the three great reds of Bordeaux. The other other has been Cab Sauv and Merlot. And, we have tried all three in our vineyard, and we ended up settling on this because we just found it much more, adaptable to our site. And, there are reasons for the other two not quite make making the grade. Cabso isn't a reliable ripener every year, and and Merlot, although we can ripen it, is very susceptible to our harsh winters. So so, for for those two reasons, we decided to move away from those varieties and focus entirely on Understood in your Cab Franc. And Cab Franc, also just makes great wine. We we discovered when we finally had the right clones in the right site, it was obvious. (04:53):
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Len [01:03:02]: I mean, what I what I found over the years as a grape grower is that you know you're gonna make great wine even before you've made it because you've got a vine that's producing the perfect crop without a lot of intervention. It doesn't need a lot of, the things that, you would otherwise do to achieve quality because it's Like the cropping and Yeah. It it it just it it puts out just exactly the amount of crop that it can ripen. The clusters are loose. The skins are are, fairly thick, not like Pinot. So, it just was a beautiful vine to grow. And so sure enough, the wines, were were were also beautiful when we finally (04:54):
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Andrea Morris [01:03:45]: very beautiful color to this wine as well. (04:55):
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Len [01:03:47]: Yeah. Such a dark (04:56):
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Andrea Morris [01:03:49]: shade of burgundy almost. (04:57):
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Len [01:03:51]: In the case of all of these big reds, they need we typically they need more time on the vine. So the the they need an extended season. We we don't always have that. And so we we needed to find a grape that that we could count on ripening every year. And and that again, that's a that's Cab Franc. And on our site, we don't get frost usually until at least the November. So in a cool year like, this was a cool year. And I'm I'm frankly shocked how great the Cab Francs are from '21 because there was that long period where we were just in despair. (04:58):
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Len [01:04:29]: Rain. Rain. And they were just hanging out there in the rain, in the mud, and the water standing between the between the rows, and we wondered if we'd ever get out there to pick them. But they just hung in there. And then as things dried up and we got into November, we were able to make this wine. And and I'm truly shocked, but but also I feel vindicated that we chose Cab Franc because it we knew that it it could it could hang It's a hearty blade into the season. (04:59):
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Andrea Morris [01:04:58]: Hearty grape? (05:00):
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Len [01:04:59]: Yeah. And and it it delivered. So if it can deliver in a year like this, it it delivers all the more in a in a better growing season. When's the typical time (05:01):
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Andrea Morris [01:05:09]: you would harvest a Cab Franc Lake? October? (05:02):
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Len [01:05:11]: Well, late October probably. But but if we need to stretch the season into November, we can because the leaves are still green. Once the once we get a frost and the leaves turn brown, there's no more photosynthetic activity. The vine won't there's no the only ripening incremental ripening ripening you get would be from desiccation. In other words, if the if the berries, if the water evaporates out of the berries and they they and they raisin, you're gonna get more concentration, but not more ripening. So there's no point leaving leaving grapes on the vine beyond the first frost. So the the the challenge is to to have a an extended growing season. Have a site which will allow you, if you need it, to extend the growing season into November, and and and we can do that every year. (05:03):
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Andrea Morris [01:06:02]: But it's getting warmer all the time too. So Yeah. It's becoming easier. (05:04):
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Len [01:06:05]: Right. Right. (05:05):
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Andrea Morris [01:06:06]: But this has a nice peppery I find it has a very peppery aroma, but it doesn't taste peppery at all. (05:06):
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Len [01:06:14]: So why don't you use that descriptor? That's a descriptor I use for Gamay more than Cab Franc, but I I see what you're saying. (05:07):
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Andrea Morris [01:06:21]: Well, we have different palates. (05:08):
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Len [01:06:26]: One of the things with with this like, the Pinot is that and Niagara, Bordeaux reds generally age surprisingly well. (05:09):
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Andrea Morris [01:06:36]: I get a lot of black cherry on the Yeah. I do too. The back of my tongue on this. (05:10):
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Len [01:06:39]: You you you pick up the tannin there too. Right? Like, it it's the most tannic of all the wines we've we've tasted, today. And that's no surprises. It's the darkest color, more skin contact. Those are thick skins. We we wanna extract that that flavor and that color, and and and the price you pay is that you're also extracting tannins, which is not a bad thing, because it gives the wine longevity. So this wine, again, will go for for ten, even twenty years. Nope. (05:11):
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Len [01:07:10]: But it'll change. The the evolution, is is quite different, and that's what happens in Bordeaux. I mean, the great Chateau Bordeaux really express themselves with that much bottle age. That and that's why they're so prized because they they can they they can be enjoyed young as we can in this wine right now or the Pinot. But the what what connoisseurs, look for is the is the the the the change in flavor that occurs with bottle age that that that is quite different. (05:12):
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Andrea Morris [01:07:43]: Is there a point that it's been too long? (05:13):
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Len [01:07:47]: Oh, yeah. I mean, wine is think about it. If you think about it as a curve on a graph, these wines are all on the on the upside. They're they're they're they're going up toward the peak quality. And then and then they'll there can be a long plateau or or the the graph might sort of, flatten out for a long period of time. But at some point, it'll go the other way. Yeah. So you you wanna avoid that. (05:14):
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Len [01:08:14]: But usually, if it's a wine that that you know will will age a long time, like twenty years, for example, the Riesling's for sure, both reds, Absolutely. Chardonnay less so because it's just not the nature of Chardonnay that lasts that long. And obviously, Rose, no. We didn't I didn't answer that question. (05:15):
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Andrea Morris [01:08:34]: You did not. So I'm just trying to (05:16):
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Len [01:08:36]: It might it it may well. I don't know. But the thing about, bottle age, if I can just digress for a minute, is that it's, Matt Kramer is a is a is a famous wine writer, and he wrote a book called Making Sense of Wine years ago. And I had the good fortune of meeting him decades ago here, and and he had has this concept of of transformation. His the point he makes in that book and that he's made over the years is great wines don't age, they transform. And he when he said that to me, I said, Matt, what do you mean? I don't I don't understand. I hadn't read his book. And so we were doing a flight of Riesling's. (05:17):
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Len [01:09:19]: It it it happened at that time. And there was a, I don't know, five, six, seven, and they were we were it was in in the nineties, so we were going I I remember when I think the first wine or the last wine in the flight was the '88. So we went to say from '94 to '88 or something like that. And we were talking about this concept of transformation, and I didn't I didn't understand what he was saying. A very philosophical kind of a of a theory. And so we were going through the flight. We got to the last wine, and and and he was still trying to explain to me, and then he said, bingo. This wine has transformed. (05:18):
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Len [01:09:59]: That was the 88. Let's say it was seven, eight years old by then. Said all of these wines, they were all made by the same winemaker from the same site, same vines. Said all these wines are on their way to becoming this wine. This is the wine they truly are. So that if you really wanna understand the essence of a wine, then you need to wait the moment when it becomes what it was intended to be. And and that's what happens with bottle age. But it's not just aging. (05:19):
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Len [01:10:32]: It's trans it it there's a there's a point at which it's like somebody throws a switch and says, okay. Now you truly are getting what it was what it was on its way to becoming, and now it has become that thing. (05:20):
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Andrea Morris [01:10:47]: So patience truly is a virtue when (05:21):
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Len [01:10:49]: it comes to wine. Yes. Unfortunately, I can't help that. And if you if you taste a a great wine that has been given that opportunity to become itself like that, you know you know, as soon as you as soon as you smell it and taste it, it's just it's magical. (05:22):
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Andrea Morris [01:11:06]: I've had some wines from places in this area that didn't age well, though. (05:23):
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Len [01:11:10]: Oh, yeah. That of course. Yeah. You need it takes a lot of care to build a wine for that for for that, journey. (05:24):
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Andrea Morris [01:11:20]: Because I was at a friend's house, and she opened up a bottle of the twenty seventeen (05:25):
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Len [01:11:24]: from a vineyard that I won't name, (05:26):
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Andrea Morris [01:11:26]: and it tasted like vinegar. (05:27):
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Len [01:11:28]: Well, that's just a flawed wine then. I mean, vinegar is is a volatile acidity. (05:28):
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Andrea Morris [01:11:33]: Is that because of the maybe, like, there was something when the like, I I had talked to Vadim at Casaba once about it, and he said something sometimes it's the cork. (05:29):
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Len [01:11:42]: Could be the cork too. Yeah. I mean, cork taint is very not common, but it it happens. I mean, I I took a bottle of this one the Cab Franc Estate. We we were down in in Massachusetts a few weeks ago. We were there for a week. I thought I'll bring some nice wine. And and one of the nicest wines I brought was the Cab Franc Estate, and I pulled a cork, and it was corked. (05:30):
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Len [01:12:05]: It was spoiled by the cork. The wine the wine otherwise would have been fine, but cork, it's called TCA, the the compound that that occurs naturally in in remember, cork is a is the is the bark of a tree. So you're dealing with something that that, can be spoiled. Like a (05:31):
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Andrea Morris [01:12:27]: barnyard thing. (05:32):
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Len [01:12:28]: Yeah. Yeah. So that but that's a scourge of the wine business and and the way to avoid it, But it it's only under cork that bind the wine ages the way I'm talking about. We've done experiments, and we've done Riesling under screw cap and under cork, and gone back six, seven, eight years later. And the and the riesling under cork evolved, had the kind of transformation I talked about, and the riesling under screw cap was in freeze frame. It was the same as it was when when we bottle it, and that's not what what great wines are about. Great great wines are about evolving. Evolving. (05:33):
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Len [01:13:10]: Right. Yeah. Right. (05:34):
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Andrea Morris [01:13:11]: Yeah. So note to any listener, if you buy a screw cap, don't think that you can you can age it, but it's not gonna change the flavor of the wine. (05:35):
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Len [01:13:22]: That's a that no. That's a controversial statement that that that I that I would make. There are winemakers who believe that that, screw caps do do permit evolution. (05:36):
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Andrea Morris [01:13:34]: But how if they don't have the if they don't have the cork that actually adds to that, (05:37):
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Len [01:13:39]: how would you It's yeah. It's this minute amount of of air transfer that occurs through the cork that that contributes to that evolution. Whereas if you have a perfect seal, a hermetically sealed vessel, you don't get that, and and that's the difference. Now there are winemakers who would who would dispute what I'm saying. So I'm I'm just just to be fair to them. On my experience and I was a skeptic. I every time I have this a corked wine, I bring it back to the winery and slam it on the on the counter in the lab, and I tell the guys, what are we doing? We're we're we're selling lemons to our customers. Like, this is wrong. (05:38):
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Len [01:14:17]: We we got then so because there was a time when we thought two caps were the answer. But when we after we did that those experiments, it became clear that we won't get the evolution that we're we're all trying to achieve. (05:39):
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Andrea Morris [01:14:31]: And why did screw caps come about? Because I heard that there was a cork shortage at one point, or was it just that (05:40):
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Len [01:14:37]: They've been around when I started in the business a long time ago, they were when we when we started VQA, I was I was, you know, involved at the very beginning of VQA. We we actually had a rule that you could not if if you were if it was a VQA one, it had to be under Quark because we were trying to elevate the industry, elevate our image, and corks had to do with that. We now permit screw caps. Because in those days, screw caps were associated with jug wine. You know? Boones Farm. Gallo, Hardy Burgundy, whatever. Right. This is Richard's Wild what is it? Kinda the Constellation brand. (05:41):
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Len [01:15:15]: I forget I forget what it was called, but named after that. (05:42):
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Andrea Morris [01:15:18]: That you drank when you were in high school. (05:43):
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Len [01:15:19]: Richard's Richard's Wild Irish Rose. Oh my god. That is a wine that made made the the Sands family, wealthy, and and now they own Robert Mondavi winery among many others. So, you know (05:44):
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Andrea Morris [01:15:32]: Wow. (05:45):
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Len [01:15:32]: Humble beginnings. But the point is those wines were were were kept in screw caps. So the image was down market. So for many years, nobody touched the like, serious wine drinkers would never buy a screw cap wine because that was what it connoted. Today, that's not the case anymore. And we have the Aussies and the Kiwis to thank for that. They were the ones who said, you know, enough with cork tank. We're there's no reason why we can't use this closure, and then the rest of the world, followed. (05:46):
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Andrea Morris [01:16:01]: That's really cool. Mhmm. You've been, like, such a, like, such a wealth of now is today, (05:47):
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Len [01:16:07]: Len. Oh, thank you. (05:48):
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Andrea Morris [01:16:08]: Like I really I really like have enjoyed the wine tasting. (05:49):
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Len [01:16:11]: Mhmm. I've (05:50):
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Andrea Morris [01:16:12]: enjoyed hearing so many stories. I will appreciate champagne in a completely different way now, and I have you to thank for that. And I'm sure our listeners do as well. So (05:51):
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Len [01:16:20]: I'm glad to share it. (05:52):
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Andrea Morris [01:16:21]: Thank you so much for being a guest on Spill the Wine and for, like, allowing us to visit you at Cave Springs. It's been an absolutely fantastic experience. And listener, if you're ever in this area, you've got two different locations you can visit them at. You can the the tasting room here in Jordan or the vineyards which are in Beamsville. Both spectacular locations. So be sure to visit the show notes for more information on Cape Springs. And also, don't forget to like and follow Spill the Wine as well. And if you have any topics or suggestions or more questions for Len, you can definitely send us an email at podcastspillthewine@gmail.com. (05:53):
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Andrea Morris [01:17:03]: That's spot podcast spill the wine at gmail dot com. So now we will say cheers and enjoy your next glass of Cape Springs. (05:54):
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