July 19, 2024 • 18 mins
Tragedies in the communities of Flint, Michigan, and East Palestine, Ohio, continue to affect residents 10 years and 1 year on, respectively, from the initial events. Residents of both cities continue to rebound and rebuild despite ongoing issues revolving around the toxic chemicals that were introduced to their towns through human decisions.
C&EN physical sciences reporter Priyanka Runwal traveled to both Flint and East Palestine to speak with residents about how they are recovering, how the actions of their representatives have fallen short, and their hopes to return to something of a “normal” existence in the future.
C&EN Uncovered, a project from C&EN’s podcast, Stereo Chemistry, offers a deeper look at subjects from recent stories. Check out Priyanka’s cover story on Flint after 10 years at cenm.ag/flint; Check out Priyanka’s cover story on East Palestine at cenm.ag/eastpalestine
Cover photo: Residents of Flint, Michigan, march arm in arm as they demand justice and accountability for their community 10 years from the beginning of the water crisis.
Subscribe to Stereo Chemistry now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
A transcript of this episode will be available soon at cen.acs.org.
Credits
Executive producer: Gina Vitale
C&EN Uncovered host: Craig Bettenhausen
Reporter: Priyanka Runwal
Audio editor: Ted Woods
Copyeditor: Bran Vickers
Story editor: Laura Howes
Episode artwork: Brittany Greeson
Music: “Hot Chocolate,” by Aves
Contact Stereo Chemistry: Contact us on social media at @cenmag or email cenfeedback@acs.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Craig Bettenhausen (00:00):
Craig, welcome to CNN uncovered. I'm
(00:07):
Craig Bettenhausen. CNNuncovered is a podcast series
from stereo chemistry. In eachepisode, we'll take another look
at a recent cover story inchemical and Engineering News
and hear from CNN reportersabout striking moments from the
reporting, their biggesttakeaways and what got left on
the cutting room floor. In thisepisode, we're talking about two
recent cover stories on thelasting effects of human made
(00:28):
disasters on the people of EastPalestine, Ohio and Flint,
Michigan, two communitiesseparated by less than 300 miles
that have faced continuedhardships after tragedy struck.
Our story of 2020 three'sNorfolk Southern freight train
derailment in the Ohio town ofEast Palestine appeared in the
February 26 issue of CNN. Ourpiece on Flint appeared in the
(00:49):
May 6 issue. We'll put links toeach story in today's show
notes. I'm here with CNNphysical sciences reporter
Priyanka runewal, who wrote botharticles. Hi Priyanka.
Priyanka Runwal (00:58):
Hi Craig. Thanks for having me.
Craig Bettenhausen (01:00):
So for anyone that hasn't had a chance
to read these stories yet, canyou give a brief recap of what's
in each article?
Priyanka Runwal (01:07):
So the two stories like you mentioned are
about the two environmentaldisasters that have deeply
impacted communities living intowns where these disasters
unfolded now in East Palestine,Ohio, a freight train carrying a
whole bunch of things, includinghazardous chemicals, derailed
from its tracks in February 2023and offended the lives of many
(01:28):
people. And in a verycontroversial move, authorities
released and burned vinylchloride. This is a chemical
that's flammable, carcinogenic,used for making PVC plastics,
and this chemical, vinylchloride, was present in five
train cars. Now, while the EPAhas maintained that the air, the
drinking water and the soil issafe, local people have reported
(01:48):
feeling sick, and they've beenworried about lingering
contamination and adverse healtheffects. Now, the second story
is about Flint, Michigan, wherebad decisions were made
involving the city's drinkingwater and that caused lead and
other metals to leach from thecity's aging pipes that 10s of
1000s of residents were exposedto dangerous levels of lead, a
known neurotoxin, along withpotentially carcinogenic
(02:12):
compounds like trihalomethanesand a waterborne bacterium that
caused outbreaks of lifethreatening Legionnaire's
Disease. 10 years on, thecommunity is still grappling
with physical and mental healthproblems that was unleashed by
this environmental disaster. Soearlier this year, I traveled to
East Palestine, and then inMarch to Flint to meet people
who've been living through thesecrises. Talk to scientists
(02:34):
who've been doing independentenvironmental and health
monitoring in the areas, andgovernment officials who are in
charge of protected people inthese situations.
Craig Bettenhausen (02:43):
Central to the lasting problems in East
Palestine is this decision thatthe company made to drain the
chemicals into a pit and thenset the pit on fire. What was
the point of setting the pit onfire? Why not just drain it and
haul it away?
Priyanka Runwal (02:57):
Well, that was certainly one option, but
Norfolk southernized contractorsproposed to the decision makers
that the release and burning ofthe vinyl chloride was the only
viable option. An on ground teamhad noted an increase in the
temperature of one of the railcar shell and they concluded
that the stabilized vinylchloride in the tank had started
to polymerize. Now another worrywas that the pressure relief
(03:20):
devices on these railcars hadmalfunctioned. So if the
polymerization was occurring,pressure buildup could lead to
an explosion, which would sendtoxic gasses and sharpened in
all directions. Now, experts saythat such polymerization cannot
happen without an initiation ofcompound that would trigger such
a reaction. Also the temperaturethe ground crew noted wasn't
(03:41):
high enough to indicate thatexothermic reaction was
occurring. But there is anotherimportant aspect. The
temperature did continue torise, as one would expect to see
when polymerization occurs, butthe temperature had started to
decline before the wendenburgdecision was made. Now in recent
hearings where the NationalTransportation Safety Board
presented the findings of theirinvestigation into this
(04:04):
derailment. They concluded thatthis vent and burn was
unnecessary and that NorfolkSouthern provided incomplete
information to decision makerswho had few minutes to make that
call. Now the theory goes thatthe train company did this to
clear the tracks as soon aspossible so they could start
moving stuff again. But NorfolkSouthern defends its actions by
(04:25):
saying that other options toremove vinyl chloride weren't
feasible because the derailedcars had sustained damage, and
that the conditions on theground were pretty dangerous. So
let's
Craig Bettenhausen (04:38):
turn to Flint. Flint is about a big
story that's an internationalnews. When the lead level spiked
in Flint, how has the watercontamination affected the
community there?
Priyanka Runwal (04:49):
The interesting thing in Flint is that several
people initially, and especiallychildren, got their blood lead
levels tested when that.Happened, there was indication
that their lead levels are wellabove their dangerous lead
levels. They're well above, youknow, what is considered okay or
(05:10):
not less problematic. One of thethings that has been documented,
to a very large extent is mentalhealth issues now living through
a water crisis like this, whereyou have people in power that
are essentially supposed toprotect people and be
transparent about environmentalissues at play, why people may
(05:32):
be experiencing certain symptomsthat they do the initial years
of the water crisis, or theinitial months of the water
crisis, people in power werereally not being transparent
with folks living in thosecommunities. People were on the
ground protesting, and you hadpeople in power tell them, you
know it's all fine and it'ssafe. And then you had
independent researchers comingin and testing their water and
(05:55):
telling them you know otherwise.And so people have lived through
a lot of trauma. Parentsextremely worried that the high
levels of lead that physiciansin their town were testing the
blood lead levels of thechildren, the high levels that
they were detecting, what wouldthat mean for their children's
health? Parents, having livedthrough a lot of this, have
(06:17):
experienced mental healthissues. Initially, some studies
had also documented reproductionrelated issues in Flint women
that they've linked to the watercrises. So you have a whole
range of things that thecommunity has experienced
initially, and issues likehypertension in adults that
people are still continuing todocument.
Craig Bettenhausen (06:40):
So in both articles, especially the flint
one, but both of them, you hadthese frank and honest
discussions about the impact ofrace and class on what's
happening. Tell me about how youapproach writing about some of
these culturally fraught topics.
Priyanka Runwal (06:55):
In the case of Flint, I mean, I spoke to a
community member who had beenimpacted by the Flint water
crisis, who has been an activistin the community ever since the
crisis unfolded, and one of thefirst things he told me was
that, you know, this is both arace as well as a class issue.
(07:15):
Flint is a community where it'smajority black, it's also a
community that's heavily poor.So I sort of approached the
flint story keeping in mind thatthis is a larger community that
is dealing with the water crisisin the East Palestine case,
again, it's a poor community.The socioeconomic dynamics in
this community are verydifferent. And so the way I sort
(07:39):
of reported the story wastalking to several people and
really understanding who wasimpacted most by the disaster in
whatever way that they were, andjust really trying to write it
from that lens. So
Craig Bettenhausen (07:52):
in Flint, the effects are clearly about
the water. But in EastPalestine, where did the
chemicals end up? Is it in thedirt, the air, the water. So
Priyanka Runwal (08:01):
the EPA has been monitoring the air, the
water and the soil. I mean, thetesting sort of indicates that
the pollutants definitely wentinto the soil and into the water
along the railway track. So whenI was there, you could see this
large area that's cordoned offalong the railway tracks that
is, you know, sort of calledGround Zero, where the train
derailed, where the train carswere sort of lying to rail for a
(08:21):
long time before the authoritiessort of cleaned up that space.
There are two important localwaterways, sulfur run and Leslie
run. These are creeks that runthrough East Palestine, and they
were especially heavilycontaminated by chemicals that
were spilled from the traincars. Now, over time, the amount
of contaminants in the water hadgone down, but the sediments at
(08:44):
the bottom of these creeks arestill potentially contaminated.
The sediment has been a hugesource of tension between the
community and the authoritiesthat are overseeing these
cleanup efforts. Often,community members would see a
rainbow colored sheen on thewater potentially indicating the
presence of blue boil that leakfrom one of the train cars and
potentially other stuff, but alot of the focus currently is to
(09:06):
clean up and continue testingthe area that's sort of around
that ground zero location.
Craig Bettenhausen (09:11):
So what are the biggest discrepancies
between what the agency reportsare showing and what the
residents are reporting andexperiencing?
Priyanka Runwal (09:20):
I think especially in the initial few
weeks after the train derailed,you had the EPA sort of saying,
it's all fine. The air is safe,based on what we're testing. The
drinking water is fine. And theyhad cordoned off around the
Ground Zero area that they knewwas contaminated, and they were
taking care of that. But on theother hand, you had people who
(09:41):
had come back to their homes,and they were experiencing
several symptoms, skin rashes,nosebleeds, tingling of the
lips, irritation of the nose,eyes, throat, and that was, I
guess, one of the biggestdiscrepancies. You know. You
have people with these symptoms,and they. Don't really
understand why suddenly they'reexperiencing all these health
(10:04):
symptoms that they hadn't seenbefore. You know, you had people
experiencing all of this. Well,on the other side, you're
hearing things are okay, it'sfine. And yes, you can have some
short term symptoms, but evenwhen chemicals are present at
lower levels, and especiallywhen there are several chemicals
present at lower levels, wedon't really understand, or
(10:27):
science doesn't reallyunderstand so well, how exposure
to chemicals at low levels andmultiple such chemicals at low
levels, their presence together,could be problematic for
people's health. We just don'thave very good answers to those
questions. A toxicologist Ispoke with said that, you know,
testing for single chemicals initself is not enough. So
Craig Bettenhausen (10:50):
you and I have moved around and live in a
lot of places in our lives, butboth East Palestine and Flint
are more multi generationalcommunities. A lot of the
people, if not most of thepeople, live in the same houses,
even that their grandparents andgreat grandparents lived in. How
is the recovery going for thatcommunity, that culture in these
(11:11):
two towns? You know, one year onand 10 years on, you know,
Priyanka Runwal (11:15):
in Flint, there are people who have left because
of the water crisis, there arepeople who have stayed despite
the water crisis. So JamieDavis, who is the lead in my
story, one of the things thatshe told me was that, you know,
often she'll have people tellthem, you know things are bad.
(11:36):
You can see things are bad.You're worried for your
children. Why don't you leave?She said that, you know, it's
not really easy for people tojust leave. They've lived in
that town for years. You know,multi generations have lived in
that town for years. That placehas been home for them. But it's
the economics of it also thatshe explained to me, for us, I
(11:58):
think it was a two or threebedroom apartment that your
house that she had in Flint, shepaid $600 a month for rent, but
asked her to move somewhere elseoutside of Flint, she was going
to pay a lot more, and she justdoesn't make that kind of money.
And just asking that question,you know, why don't you just
leave? Is not something that alot of people can do. In the
(12:20):
case of East Palestine, ChrissyHilton, for instance, who is the
lead character in my story,Chrissy has lived in the house
ever since she was born, and herfamily has owned it, I think
since the 1970s It pains her tonot be able to live in that
house again, but she's soworried about the contamination,
(12:42):
it pains her to not be able togo back to that home again. But
at the same time, just movingout of East Palestine to another
place where she can buy a home,she worries that she may not be
able to afford it, or sheprobably cannot afford it. So
for a lot of people, when youthink about recovery, one thing
(13:03):
that we have to understandpeople despite knowing that
there are many environmentalchallenges that they're
concerned about, worried about,people can't just move.
Craig Bettenhausen (13:13):
So between these two cities, the root cause
of the contamination is verydifferent, but a lot of the
dynamics around trying to getresponse from the agency and the
responsible companies aresimilar. Flint's been about 10
years. East Palestine has beenabout one year. Are there
lessons for East Palestine inwhat Flint has accomplished and
where they've struggled, andwhat are those lessons?
Priyanka Runwal (13:35):
I think, like you said, you know, the sort of
situations or the sources ofcontamination are different. How
the situation played out aredifferent, but the commonality
here is the loss of trustbetween people in power who
residents in these areasexpected will protect them
against anything that would gowrong and would harm their
(13:56):
health. That lack of trust, it'ssort of central to how things
have unfolded, in both cases, 10years on in Flint, that lack of
trust still doesn't feelrestored. Having talked to a lot
of people there, the city has,in many places, replaced the
lead service lines thegalvanized iron service lines.
(14:17):
But even though the levels oflead are below what are called,
quote, unquote, actionablelevels. You have scientists on
one hand that say that you knowany amount of lead exposure is
not good, especially forchildren. At the same time, you
have people who whose trust wasbetrayed. You have lawsuits that
unfolded, and people in powerwho were potentially considered
(14:42):
guilty, were let off the hook.And I suspect that even as
things change, that lack oftrust, which we now see in East
Palestine, or we have seen inEast Palestine, may continue to
stay because again, you have a.Are people in power who probably
(15:02):
did not acknowledge some of thevery real symptoms that people
were describing or reporting,and people talking about this
unpleasant odor in their house,and all of that stuff not being
taken seriously or notacknowledged properly has sort
of really led to this lack oftrust. And so I don't know if
(15:23):
there are clear lessons to belearned, but there are
commonalities that I've seenplay out in both places. 10
years down. If I go to EastPalestine and you still see
people talking about lack oftrust in agencies that supposed
to protect people. I would notbe surprised.
Craig Bettenhausen (15:43):
So as you walk the streets in these towns,
do you feel like these arecommunities that are going to
return to their pre crisisvibrancy? Are they on the death
what is the feeling likeactually on the streets of these
towns
Priyanka Runwal (15:59):
in East Palestine, for instance, if I
knew nothing about the factthat, you know, there was a
train that had derailed, therewas an environmental disaster
that unfolded, I might notnecessarily be able to say that
there's something strange orsomething eerie about the place,
but you know, you spent a day ortwo and you start seeing certain
(16:20):
things that serve as very clearreminders of you know what
happened. You have boards orplacards that say East Palestine
strong in several places intown. You walk into the grocery
store, or you walk into thelocal diner, and you have the
pin up board with informationabout health studies one can
(16:41):
participate in. You see trucksgoing in and out of East
Palestine that are carrying, youknow, either contaminated soil
or contaminated water. It sortof becomes obvious in Flint. On
the other hand, it has been 10years, but, you know, people
still talk about the watercrisis like it was yesterday.
(17:05):
Again, just walking throughtown, you see certain reminders
of the water crisis. I rememberseeing a mural which has a robot
in it on it, and it says, freshproduce. And one of the things
during the water crisis publichealth officials Doctors told
parents was to feed the childrenand their families fresh food,
(17:26):
fresh fruit, fresh greens, andthat sort of reduces the
absorption of lead into thebody, into the blood. You know,
those little things sort ofserve as reminders of that time.
But again, for some people, theevents are so traumatic that
talking to them feels likeyesterday, that this happened.
Craig Bettenhausen (17:46):
Priyanka, thanks for diving deep on this
with us.
Priyanka Runwal (17:48):
Thank you so much for having me, Craig.
Craig Bettenhausen (17:51):
So for listeners, you can find me on
social media as at Craig ofwaffles. Where can they find
you? You
Priyanka Runwal (17:57):
can find me on Twitter. I'm at Priyanka. P, R,
i, y, a, n, k, a, underscore,runwal, r, u, n, w, a, l, and
sorry, that's x. Now that's notbetter anymore.
Craig Bettenhausen (18:11):
You can find Priyanka cover stories about
revisiting East Palestine andFlint on CNN website, or in the
February 26 and may 6 printeditions of CNE, we put links in
the show notes along with theepisode credits. We'd love to
know what you think of Cenuncovered. You can share your
feedback with us by emailingcenfeedback@acs.org This has
(18:32):
been CNE and uncovered a seriesfrom Cen en stereo chemistry.
Stereo chemistry is the officialpodcast of chemical and
Engineering News. ChemicalEngineering News is an
independent news outletpublished by the American
Chemical Society. Thanks forlistening. You.
Craig, welcome to CNN uncovered. I'm
(00:07):
Craig Bettenhausen. CNNuncovered is a podcast series
from stereo chemistry. In eachepisode, we'll take another look
at a recent cover story inchemical and Engineering News
and hear from CNN reportersabout striking moments from the
reporting, their biggesttakeaways and what got left on
the cutting room floor. In thisepisode, we're talking about two
recent cover stories on thelasting effects of human made
(00:28):
disasters on the people of EastPalestine, Ohio and Flint,
Michigan, two communitiesseparated by less than 300 miles
that have faced continuedhardships after tragedy struck.
Our story of 2020 three'sNorfolk Southern freight train
derailment in the Ohio town ofEast Palestine appeared in the
February 26 issue of CNN. Ourpiece on Flint appeared in the
(00:49):
May 6 issue. We'll put links toeach story in today's show
notes. I'm here with CNNphysical sciences reporter
Priyanka runewal, who wrote botharticles. Hi Priyanka.
Priyanka Runwal (00:58):
Hi Craig. Thanks for having me.
Craig Bettenhausen (01:00):
So for anyone that hasn't had a chance
to read these stories yet, canyou give a brief recap of what's
in each article?
Priyanka Runwal (01:07):
So the two stories like you mentioned are
about the two environmentaldisasters that have deeply
impacted communities living intowns where these disasters
unfolded now in East Palestine,Ohio, a freight train carrying a
whole bunch of things, includinghazardous chemicals, derailed
from its tracks in February 2023and offended the lives of many
(01:28):
people. And in a verycontroversial move, authorities
released and burned vinylchloride. This is a chemical
that's flammable, carcinogenic,used for making PVC plastics,
and this chemical, vinylchloride, was present in five
train cars. Now, while the EPAhas maintained that the air, the
drinking water and the soil issafe, local people have reported
(01:48):
feeling sick, and they've beenworried about lingering
contamination and adverse healtheffects. Now, the second story
is about Flint, Michigan, wherebad decisions were made
involving the city's drinkingwater and that caused lead and
other metals to leach from thecity's aging pipes that 10s of
1000s of residents were exposedto dangerous levels of lead, a
known neurotoxin, along withpotentially carcinogenic
(02:12):
compounds like trihalomethanesand a waterborne bacterium that
caused outbreaks of lifethreatening Legionnaire's
Disease. 10 years on, thecommunity is still grappling
with physical and mental healthproblems that was unleashed by
this environmental disaster. Soearlier this year, I traveled to
East Palestine, and then inMarch to Flint to meet people
who've been living through thesecrises. Talk to scientists
(02:34):
who've been doing independentenvironmental and health
monitoring in the areas, andgovernment officials who are in
charge of protected people inthese situations.
Craig Bettenhausen (02:43):
Central to the lasting problems in East
Palestine is this decision thatthe company made to drain the
chemicals into a pit and thenset the pit on fire. What was
the point of setting the pit onfire? Why not just drain it and
haul it away?
Priyanka Runwal (02:57):
Well, that was certainly one option, but
Norfolk southernized contractorsproposed to the decision makers
that the release and burning ofthe vinyl chloride was the only
viable option. An on ground teamhad noted an increase in the
temperature of one of the railcar shell and they concluded
that the stabilized vinylchloride in the tank had started
to polymerize. Now another worrywas that the pressure relief
(03:20):
devices on these railcars hadmalfunctioned. So if the
polymerization was occurring,pressure buildup could lead to
an explosion, which would sendtoxic gasses and sharpened in
all directions. Now, experts saythat such polymerization cannot
happen without an initiation ofcompound that would trigger such
a reaction. Also the temperaturethe ground crew noted wasn't
(03:41):
high enough to indicate thatexothermic reaction was
occurring. But there is anotherimportant aspect. The
temperature did continue torise, as one would expect to see
when polymerization occurs, butthe temperature had started to
decline before the wendenburgdecision was made. Now in recent
hearings where the NationalTransportation Safety Board
presented the findings of theirinvestigation into this
(04:04):
derailment. They concluded thatthis vent and burn was
unnecessary and that NorfolkSouthern provided incomplete
information to decision makerswho had few minutes to make that
call. Now the theory goes thatthe train company did this to
clear the tracks as soon aspossible so they could start
moving stuff again. But NorfolkSouthern defends its actions by
(04:25):
saying that other options toremove vinyl chloride weren't
feasible because the derailedcars had sustained damage, and
that the conditions on theground were pretty dangerous. So
let's
Craig Bettenhausen (04:38):
turn to Flint. Flint is about a big
story that's an internationalnews. When the lead level spiked
in Flint, how has the watercontamination affected the
community there?
Priyanka Runwal (04:49):
The interesting thing in Flint is that several
people initially, and especiallychildren, got their blood lead
levels tested when that.Happened, there was indication
that their lead levels are wellabove their dangerous lead
levels. They're well above, youknow, what is considered okay or
(05:10):
not less problematic. One of thethings that has been documented,
to a very large extent is mentalhealth issues now living through
a water crisis like this, whereyou have people in power that
are essentially supposed toprotect people and be
transparent about environmentalissues at play, why people may
(05:32):
be experiencing certain symptomsthat they do the initial years
of the water crisis, or theinitial months of the water
crisis, people in power werereally not being transparent
with folks living in thosecommunities. People were on the
ground protesting, and you hadpeople in power tell them, you
know it's all fine and it'ssafe. And then you had
independent researchers comingin and testing their water and
(05:55):
telling them you know otherwise.And so people have lived through
a lot of trauma. Parentsextremely worried that the high
levels of lead that physiciansin their town were testing the
blood lead levels of thechildren, the high levels that
they were detecting, what wouldthat mean for their children's
health? Parents, having livedthrough a lot of this, have
(06:17):
experienced mental healthissues. Initially, some studies
had also documented reproductionrelated issues in Flint women
that they've linked to the watercrises. So you have a whole
range of things that thecommunity has experienced
initially, and issues likehypertension in adults that
people are still continuing todocument.
Craig Bettenhausen (06:40):
So in both articles, especially the flint
one, but both of them, you hadthese frank and honest
discussions about the impact ofrace and class on what's
happening. Tell me about how youapproach writing about some of
these culturally fraught topics.
Priyanka Runwal (06:55):
In the case of Flint, I mean, I spoke to a
community member who had beenimpacted by the Flint water
crisis, who has been an activistin the community ever since the
crisis unfolded, and one of thefirst things he told me was
that, you know, this is both arace as well as a class issue.
(07:15):
Flint is a community where it'smajority black, it's also a
community that's heavily poor.So I sort of approached the
flint story keeping in mind thatthis is a larger community that
is dealing with the water crisisin the East Palestine case,
again, it's a poor community.The socioeconomic dynamics in
this community are verydifferent. And so the way I sort
(07:39):
of reported the story wastalking to several people and
really understanding who wasimpacted most by the disaster in
whatever way that they were, andjust really trying to write it
from that lens. So
Craig Bettenhausen (07:52):
in Flint, the effects are clearly about
the water. But in EastPalestine, where did the
chemicals end up? Is it in thedirt, the air, the water. So
Priyanka Runwal (08:01):
the EPA has been monitoring the air, the
water and the soil. I mean, thetesting sort of indicates that
the pollutants definitely wentinto the soil and into the water
along the railway track. So whenI was there, you could see this
large area that's cordoned offalong the railway tracks that
is, you know, sort of calledGround Zero, where the train
derailed, where the train carswere sort of lying to rail for a
(08:21):
long time before the authoritiessort of cleaned up that space.
There are two important localwaterways, sulfur run and Leslie
run. These are creeks that runthrough East Palestine, and they
were especially heavilycontaminated by chemicals that
were spilled from the traincars. Now, over time, the amount
of contaminants in the water hadgone down, but the sediments at
(08:44):
the bottom of these creeks arestill potentially contaminated.
The sediment has been a hugesource of tension between the
community and the authoritiesthat are overseeing these
cleanup efforts. Often,community members would see a
rainbow colored sheen on thewater potentially indicating the
presence of blue boil that leakfrom one of the train cars and
potentially other stuff, but alot of the focus currently is to
(09:06):
clean up and continue testingthe area that's sort of around
that ground zero location.
Craig Bettenhausen (09:11):
So what are the biggest discrepancies
between what the agency reportsare showing and what the
residents are reporting andexperiencing?
Priyanka Runwal (09:20):
I think especially in the initial few
weeks after the train derailed,you had the EPA sort of saying,
it's all fine. The air is safe,based on what we're testing. The
drinking water is fine. And theyhad cordoned off around the
Ground Zero area that they knewwas contaminated, and they were
taking care of that. But on theother hand, you had people who
(09:41):
had come back to their homes,and they were experiencing
several symptoms, skin rashes,nosebleeds, tingling of the
lips, irritation of the nose,eyes, throat, and that was, I
guess, one of the biggestdiscrepancies. You know. You
have people with these symptoms,and they. Don't really
understand why suddenly they'reexperiencing all these health
(10:04):
symptoms that they hadn't seenbefore. You know, you had people
experiencing all of this. Well,on the other side, you're
hearing things are okay, it'sfine. And yes, you can have some
short term symptoms, but evenwhen chemicals are present at
lower levels, and especiallywhen there are several chemicals
present at lower levels, wedon't really understand, or
(10:27):
science doesn't reallyunderstand so well, how exposure
to chemicals at low levels andmultiple such chemicals at low
levels, their presence together,could be problematic for
people's health. We just don'thave very good answers to those
questions. A toxicologist Ispoke with said that, you know,
testing for single chemicals initself is not enough. So
Craig Bettenhausen (10:50):
you and I have moved around and live in a
lot of places in our lives, butboth East Palestine and Flint
are more multi generationalcommunities. A lot of the
people, if not most of thepeople, live in the same houses,
even that their grandparents andgreat grandparents lived in. How
is the recovery going for thatcommunity, that culture in these
(11:11):
two towns? You know, one year onand 10 years on, you know,
Priyanka Runwal (11:15):
in Flint, there are people who have left because
of the water crisis, there arepeople who have stayed despite
the water crisis. So JamieDavis, who is the lead in my
story, one of the things thatshe told me was that, you know,
often she'll have people tellthem, you know things are bad.
(11:36):
You can see things are bad.You're worried for your
children. Why don't you leave?She said that, you know, it's
not really easy for people tojust leave. They've lived in
that town for years. You know,multi generations have lived in
that town for years. That placehas been home for them. But it's
the economics of it also thatshe explained to me, for us, I
(11:58):
think it was a two or threebedroom apartment that your
house that she had in Flint, shepaid $600 a month for rent, but
asked her to move somewhere elseoutside of Flint, she was going
to pay a lot more, and she justdoesn't make that kind of money.
And just asking that question,you know, why don't you just
leave? Is not something that alot of people can do. In the
(12:20):
case of East Palestine, ChrissyHilton, for instance, who is the
lead character in my story,Chrissy has lived in the house
ever since she was born, and herfamily has owned it, I think
since the 1970s It pains her tonot be able to live in that
house again, but she's soworried about the contamination,
(12:42):
it pains her to not be able togo back to that home again. But
at the same time, just movingout of East Palestine to another
place where she can buy a home,she worries that she may not be
able to afford it, or sheprobably cannot afford it. So
for a lot of people, when youthink about recovery, one thing
(13:03):
that we have to understandpeople despite knowing that
there are many environmentalchallenges that they're
concerned about, worried about,people can't just move.
Craig Bettenhausen (13:13):
So between these two cities, the root cause
of the contamination is verydifferent, but a lot of the
dynamics around trying to getresponse from the agency and the
responsible companies aresimilar. Flint's been about 10
years. East Palestine has beenabout one year. Are there
lessons for East Palestine inwhat Flint has accomplished and
where they've struggled, andwhat are those lessons?
Priyanka Runwal (13:35):
I think, like you said, you know, the sort of
situations or the sources ofcontamination are different. How
the situation played out aredifferent, but the commonality
here is the loss of trustbetween people in power who
residents in these areasexpected will protect them
against anything that would gowrong and would harm their
(13:56):
health. That lack of trust, it'ssort of central to how things
have unfolded, in both cases, 10years on in Flint, that lack of
trust still doesn't feelrestored. Having talked to a lot
of people there, the city has,in many places, replaced the
lead service lines thegalvanized iron service lines.
(14:17):
But even though the levels oflead are below what are called,
quote, unquote, actionablelevels. You have scientists on
one hand that say that you knowany amount of lead exposure is
not good, especially forchildren. At the same time, you
have people who whose trust wasbetrayed. You have lawsuits that
unfolded, and people in powerwho were potentially considered
(14:42):
guilty, were let off the hook.And I suspect that even as
things change, that lack oftrust, which we now see in East
Palestine, or we have seen inEast Palestine, may continue to
stay because again, you have a.Are people in power who probably
(15:02):
did not acknowledge some of thevery real symptoms that people
were describing or reporting,and people talking about this
unpleasant odor in their house,and all of that stuff not being
taken seriously or notacknowledged properly has sort
of really led to this lack oftrust. And so I don't know if
(15:23):
there are clear lessons to belearned, but there are
commonalities that I've seenplay out in both places. 10
years down. If I go to EastPalestine and you still see
people talking about lack oftrust in agencies that supposed
to protect people. I would notbe surprised.
Craig Bettenhausen (15:43):
So as you walk the streets in these towns,
do you feel like these arecommunities that are going to
return to their pre crisisvibrancy? Are they on the death
what is the feeling likeactually on the streets of these
towns
Priyanka Runwal (15:59):
in East Palestine, for instance, if I
knew nothing about the factthat, you know, there was a
train that had derailed, therewas an environmental disaster
that unfolded, I might notnecessarily be able to say that
there's something strange orsomething eerie about the place,
but you know, you spent a day ortwo and you start seeing certain
(16:20):
things that serve as very clearreminders of you know what
happened. You have boards orplacards that say East Palestine
strong in several places intown. You walk into the grocery
store, or you walk into thelocal diner, and you have the
pin up board with informationabout health studies one can
(16:41):
participate in. You see trucksgoing in and out of East
Palestine that are carrying, youknow, either contaminated soil
or contaminated water. It sortof becomes obvious in Flint. On
the other hand, it has been 10years, but, you know, people
still talk about the watercrisis like it was yesterday.
(17:05):
Again, just walking throughtown, you see certain reminders
of the water crisis. I rememberseeing a mural which has a robot
in it on it, and it says, freshproduce. And one of the things
during the water crisis publichealth officials Doctors told
parents was to feed the childrenand their families fresh food,
(17:26):
fresh fruit, fresh greens, andthat sort of reduces the
absorption of lead into thebody, into the blood. You know,
those little things sort ofserve as reminders of that time.
But again, for some people, theevents are so traumatic that
talking to them feels likeyesterday, that this happened.
Craig Bettenhausen (17:46):
Priyanka, thanks for diving deep on this
with us.
Priyanka Runwal (17:48):
Thank you so much for having me, Craig.
Craig Bettenhausen (17:51):
So for listeners, you can find me on
social media as at Craig ofwaffles. Where can they find
you? You
Priyanka Runwal (17:57):
can find me on Twitter. I'm at Priyanka. P, R,
i, y, a, n, k, a, underscore,runwal, r, u, n, w, a, l, and
sorry, that's x. Now that's notbetter anymore.
Craig Bettenhausen (18:11):
You can find Priyanka cover stories about
revisiting East Palestine andFlint on CNN website, or in the
February 26 and may 6 printeditions of CNE, we put links in
the show notes along with theepisode credits. We'd love to
know what you think of Cenuncovered. You can share your
feedback with us by emailingcenfeedback@acs.org This has
(18:32):
been CNE and uncovered a seriesfrom Cen en stereo chemistry.
Stereo chemistry is the officialpodcast of chemical and
Engineering News. ChemicalEngineering News is an
independent news outletpublished by the American
Chemical Society. Thanks forlistening. You.
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