Elite, Not Elitist: Reimagining Public Higher Education with Pradeep Khosla

Episode Transcript
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Crystal Page (00:04):
Hi, Grant.

Grant Oliphant (00:11):
Hey, Crystal.

How are you today?

I am really good. How about you?

I am good. I'm excited for today's
conversation.

We're gonna be talking with Pradeep Khosla,
who's the chancellor of UCSD anda real powerhouse in our region
and in American highereducation. I think of him as,
and I and I say thisacknowledging that he's a friend
as well, but I I I think of himas one of the real change makers

(00:42):
in our region who isdemonstrating the power of a
great vision applied over time.

Right. And I think as the chancellor or the head of
UC San Diego, he's reallybrought out brought about the
next iteration of what thatuniversity is to the city and
the county.

Yeah. And he's very clear that he inherited a
solid foundation, a goodinstitution, but it was
interesting because he inheritedan institution that was very new
and had to figure out how tobuild it into its next iteration
of what it could be. I thinkthis is a really important

(01:20):
conversation in light of what'shappening nationally with
medical research and and with,research universities and the
role of higher ed in oursociety. We touch on a lot of
things that are on people'sminds at the moment, and
hopefully, they'll find this asworthwhile as I did.

Yeah. Shall we dive in?

Let's do it.

Alright.

Alright. Chancellor Pradeep Khosla, so
good to have you here with us.Thank you for being here.

Pradeep Khosla (01:49):
Thank you, Grant. Really good to see you
again.

It is always good to see you. I I think we
need to start for our listenersby acknowledging that your real
claim to fame, although you arechancellor of UCSD, is that you
came from Pittsburgh.

That's right. It is one of my real claims to
fame.

Yes. And you and you and you own it, and you're
married to a Pittsburgher, andyou

I spent the first thirty years of my life
when I came to The US, 1982 to2012, in Pittsburgh at Carnegie
Mellon, Working a lot with youand many other philanthropy
folks out there. So yep.

Yes. You did.

Great learning experience. That's where I grew
up, as I say.

Well, a lot of us grew up during that time,
and, you know, it was one of thegreat surprises for me when I
moved to San Diego to discoverbecause you were one of the very
first people who reached outto me
That you were here. And not onlywere you here leading UC San
Diego, but you had built it intoquite a behemoth at that point.

(02:57):
And I'd love for you just totalk for a little bit about the
change agenda that you came into your role as chancellor with
and and what you were focused onin that initial decade.

Right. So, you know, there's multiple ways to
look at what happened here. Sowhen I first came here, people
asked me, like, what did you seeat UC San Diego that that you
wanted to come here? So thefirst thing I saw was a very
public institution that was justbigger and public compared to

(03:34):
Carnegie Mellon. Great sciences,great life sciences, great
engineering, and also great artsthat were not well recognized.
Right? So I could see my thirtyyears as having impacted on a
small private scale to coming toa public institution and really
broadening the impact andrethinking, or at least in my

(03:56):
mind, defining public education.The way I also explain to people
is I saw like a diamond in therough.
I saw a place that was like 55years old or 52 years old.

A very new institution.

Very new institution with great capacity,
with great, inherent talent,inherent, accomplishments, but
not many people knew about it.Even within the UC system,
people thought of UC Berkeleyand UCLA as a flagship.
So I just made that irritationmy goal, to remove that

(04:33):
irritation in my head. Right.And the way I was gonna do that
was making sure that peoplerecognize UC San Diego in the
same breath as UCLA and UCBerkeley. Now that's the
Chancellor's Complex, but whatcan I say?

Well, and it and it has served you well. I I I
think people, including itcertainly was true of me when I
came here. You were in themiddle of a of a building boom.
You were transforming the campusto become really kind of the
center of a a city.

Right.

And to have it be on the national radar for
multiple areas of expertise. Wasthat your goal coming in? Did
you know that's what you wantedto do, or did you figure out
that was the the goal?

My goal after I came in. So after I came here, I
spent the first eighteen monthsbuilding a strategic plan, but
part of the goal was to reallygo out there and talk to people.
So the more I went out andtalked to the local communities
out here, the more I realizedthat they did not recognize UC
San Diego as one of theirinstitutions. They saw us as,

(05:43):
hey, you're up in La Jolla,you're up on the mesa, you're a
very elitist place, you don'tlike the common folks, you kind
of bring people

Oh, that was all the reputation.

Completely. And especially, you know, in San
Diego, we call it South Of 8,which is where a lot of the
underserved communities is.Right?
So the first question for mewas, what is the role of a
public institution? I will talkabout that in a second. The next
question for me was, why are weso small, and why is scarcity

(06:13):
our claim to fame? So the UCsystem, like all institutions of
higher education, they takepride in how selective they are.
So in my mind, they're takingpride in making their assets,
and we're making theircapabilities scarce, scarcely
available. And that does notmake sense to me. Right?

(06:34):
So my goal was to look at, can Ithink of abundance, and can I
think of quality simultaneously?Because people see the bigger,
the lower the quality. So can Ithink of the two in the same
breath and be excellent on bothaxis? And that's where we are
right now.

That's such a great reframing. Well, let's
let's dive into this question ofwhat a public research
university is for. And so youyou realize that one of the ways
that it you needed you wanted tochange the institution was to
make it more available, as itwere, to the community. But
let's step back from that for amoment and talk about why why

(07:12):
are public research universitiesimportant, number one, and why
do they matter to a region likeSan Diego?

Right.

Why was it important?

One can look at it multiple ways. Right? So I
think one reason they'reimportant is because they are
available to a large segment ofthe public in the state where
they are or the state thatthey're serving. Right?
And they do this in a moreegalitarian manner than by

(07:41):
looking at them taking only top2% or top 5% of the people who
apply. So we are like we get60,000 applications. We are the
number two most applied to placein the country.

Wow.

Number two in the country.

Who's number one?

UCLA. 70,000, like 10,000 more.
So I guarantee we'll be numberone in a couple of years.

Mhmm. Okay. Here we go.

So so I think it's providing broad access.
That's why they're important.Yeah. Secondly, it's providing
capabilities to the localeconomy where you bring the
money in, you spend the moneylocally, you build a research
program, you bring PhD students,you bring faculty.

(08:24):
So you build a little economyaround who you are. But that is
necessary, but it's not what youreally need is to be more than
that, really build an economyfor the region, to create jobs
for the region. And I think thisis where UC San Diego, in my
mind, is a great exemplarbecause this is a little bit out
there, but I think San Diegowithout UC San Diego is not the

(08:45):
biotech hub. San Diego withoutUC San Diego is more like a navy
place, more like a vacationplace. But with UC San Diego,
becomes like one of the tophigh-tech cities in the country.

So, yeah, what we have come to think about is
the future economy of San Diego,and in many respects, the future
economy of a significant part ofthe country Comes from its
association with the university.

Right. So we are like a $10,000,000,000 top line
institution Yeah. And oureconomic impact is north of
25,000,000,000. So we have avery big economic impact.
And I think this is where theuniversities have to play an
important role. But the otherimportant role the universities
have to play is be a member ofthe community. Universities
exist in a community, and manytimes, they're not a member of

(09:34):
the community.

Right.

They're there, but they are not owned by the
community. Right. And I want usto be owned by the community.

I I wanted to get to this later, but since you
brought it up now, let's justlet's just go with it and talk
about how do you do that?

So multiple ways. Right? So in the UC
system, for example, because ofour admissions policies, I
cannot say the admissions arelocalized to San Diego or a
hundred mile radius. Theadmissions are open for all of
California.
But if I look at the role of apublic institution, it's more
than a four year education.Education can take the form of

(10:11):
cultural awareness. It can takethe form of using art and
artistic representation tocreate more awareness and
educate people. So it can takemultiple forms. And given that
we have such a great capacity inour visual arts, in music, in
theater, and dance, one of thethings I was able to do is
articulate our strategy to be adestination for art and culture

(10:35):
in addition to education andhealth care. And art and culture
is open to everybody. Right? Andso is health care, but not for
your education.
So that way, we become more ofthe community for the community,
rather than in the community foreverybody else except the
community.

Another way in which I've seen you attempt to
build this bond with communityis at the very same time as
you're building this presence inLa Jolla on the Mesa, and
expanding your footprint there,not geographically, but in terms
of the buildings, you've alsolocated downtown. You've you you

(11:16):
created a facility called Parkand Market.
You just recently, purchased abuilding that you've rebranded
The Depot That for which we'reproviding funding to help turn
it into an arts center. Well, Imean, it's I think thank you on
behalf of the community forpreserving that asset and and
wanting to turn it into an artsincubator. So actually, thank

(11:38):
you.
But why would a universitythat's that is really really has
this status of being a top tierresearch university also be
focused on trying to reach outto the community in the way that
you are?

Because remember, research is not the
only goal we have. Our goal iseducation. And in my mind,
education takes a broad range ofdefinitions from a four year
program, a master's program, aPhD program, to as simple as
managing the birch aquarium andhaving a sixth grader sixth

(12:18):
grade class come to the aquariumand tell them more about climate
change and ocean acidificationRight. And the marine life. So I
see our role as much broaderthan just a typical four year
institution.

Yeah. Which I so appreciate about your leadership
in the of the university. I'mgonna bring us back to the
research university role again,though Let's do it. For a
moment. And I I think it'simportant in the context of what
we see happening in Americaright now and and the challenges
facing research universities.

(12:51):
And at the moment, as a resultof a series of unexpected
federal actions You're lookingat an environment where you're
having to respond fairlyconstantly to budget cuts and
revocations of student visas,and what do you what is it like

(13:11):
to lead in this environment atthe moment?

Actually, it is really challenging to lead in
this environment, not because ofwhat is happening, but because
we don't know what will happentomorrow. So there's whole whole
range of uncertainties. So if Iknew with certainty I was only
gonna get thousand visas a year,for example, and no more, then I

(13:35):
know how to manage, how to growthe place, how to manage the
place within but if I don't knowhow many visas I'll get, who
will get it, who will not getit, when would they be revoked,
would personal liberties beviolated, It creates a very
challenging situation as aleader to really articulate a

(13:55):
mission and a vision based on,equity and justice, while what
we are seeing out there is notquite, supporting the vision we
have.

Right. How do you manage as well the the
budget uncertainty that you'reseeing? And you've been you've
been fairly outspoken aboutthis. The concerns that you have
and your colleagues aroundCalifornia and the country have
spoken about it as well, thatmedical research, various types

(14:28):
of scientific research are arebeing threatened. What are you
actually looking at in terms ofthe threats to to budgets?

I think, clearly, the federal government
has a role in supportingresearch. And in my mind, when
they support research, they arebasically reducing the risk of
discovering the unknown and thenusing the risk reduction to then
go further and commercialize it.Right? I mean, that's how it's

(14:58):
that's the pipeline how itworks. If the federal government
decides, not to supportresearch, I think it'll be
extremely unfortunate becausethis country, the economy is
100% or 80% or 90% technologydriven.
Without technology, there ishardly much economy or the
growth, right, that we areseeing. Right?

Right.

So in my mind, it's important that we keep on
investing in technology. And soI see my job as being a strong
advocate both for theinstitution and for technology
in the country to create thesupport, create the advocacy so
that we in The US continue to beat the cutting edge. Of not just

(15:40):
being a leading economy, butleading the world in
technological innovation, andtherefore, our capability to
bring more people out ofpoverty.

Yeah. I'm curious how how you think about
making that case in in an anenvironment like this. And
there's there are multiplelevels of this. Because you head
head a university, you have todeal with them all. Lucky you.
. But they but the you know, atone level, it's stating the

(16:09):
institutional case for whyfunding a scientific research
matters to the future of thecountry. That's one argument.
Then there's the argument aboutcivil liberties and the and the
and the rights of students, andand faculty to do things that
you do or don't agree with, butthat are still enshrined in the

(16:30):
constitution or protected. Andthen there's the the importance
of of not sending the wrongsignals about this being a
welcoming environment forintellectual inquiry and for,
all in an environment where allof these issues are hotly
politically contested

(16:51):
Right. And you're trying not toget into the politics. So what
does advocacy look like on thosevarious issues at a time like
this?

Like making a rational case. Looks like
telling, for example, thelawmakers either in Sacramento
or in DC or wherever you mightbe getting your funding from,
explaining to them how withoutbasic understanding of cellular
and molecular medicine, we wouldnot make have a better

(17:22):
understanding of how cancerdevelops, for example. So if you
wanna conquer a disease, we needto understand the biological
principles of the human body andwhat leads to that disease. And
that's what research is allabout. Research is not about
just randomly thinking thoughtsand writing something up.
It's actually methodicallyinvestigating phenomena that we

(17:43):
think will help us understandthe implications of that
phenomena as it relates I'mtalking about medicine. The same
is true about engineering. Imean, if you wanna build a
bridge that spans like onekilometer or a thousand meters,
we need to understand, like, howdoes one measure the strength of
materials? How does onecharacterize it? What materials

(18:05):
are strong?
What makes sense? So if you lookat the history of technology,
it's not recent. The history oftechnology is, I don't know, at
least 70 some years old, wherewe have been building from the
steam engine on. We're buildingmore and more technology,
becoming better and better atextracting more and more value
out of the materials we have Andmaking our livelihood or our

(18:29):
living more efficient and moreproductive. Right? So with the
same land, we are now, I don'tknow, feeding like close to
8,000,000,000 people And we'd befeeding 10,000,000,000 people.
So we need to understand how doyou improve the productivity of
the land.
We need to see how the diseaseis not gonna take your crop
production down. Right? We needto understand how the rainfall

(18:51):
patterns are changing and howthe crop product you see what
I'm saying? So I can just godown the list. I mean, research
is everywhere.

So to the to the skeptic or the person who who
who maybe is even receptive tothat argument, but who says,
yeah. Great. We should we shouldsupport scientific research,
but, isn't it also appropriateto to cut the expenses

(19:18):
associated with that? And so,you know, if the if the
administration decides theywanna, cut, the reimbursement
rates back to 10% or whateverthe number is, why is that a bad
thing? And and how does it causeharm?
Your answer would be what?

So my answer would be that long time ago, the
reimbursement rate, or what'snow called the facilities and
administration. Okay. So whenyou do research Yeah. Lay this
out for me.
Okay. Let me just explain it.When when you do research, there
are what we call direct costs.There is the cost of the faculty

(19:59):
member and her compensation.
There is a cost of the testtubes. There's a cost of some
microscopes or some facility orsome instruments that we need to
understand the phenomena we arelooking at. Then there are
indirect costs, like thebuilding you need to be in, like
the janitorial services, likethe light, like air
conditioning. So the buildingyou're in probably has research

(20:23):
from 10 different agencies,hundred different principal
investigators, and you cannotsay that this part of
electricity is used for thatproject. So there's this cost
that is smeared over this wholebusiness of doing research, and
that cost, which cannot beallocated to a single project
directly, is an indirect cost.The federal government has ways

(20:46):
to measure that. The auditorscome to your campus. They tell
you what is included, what isnot included.
They audit it every three tofive years. And based on that,
they come up with a rate. Andinvariably, the rate we would
have is more than what theylet's say What they would allow.
Yeah. So let's say our rate islike 62%.

(21:06):
They say, no, we're only gonnagive you 58. Right? Because the
facilities part and theadministration part, the
administration part is cappedat, like, 26%, if I'm not
mistaken. So there is amethodology behind this. This is
not a random thing Yeah.
That me or the PI or my CFO getsup and says, oh, the answer is
29. This is not the McLaughlinshow.

So there's actually a method to it.

Yes. Completely. Audited method.

Yeah. And that system has been set aside, and
now you're be you're having cutsimposed on you in kind of a
random way. And if I understandthe stakes that you've laid out,
the stakes are pretty stark inthat the role a university like
yours plays, at least on theresearch front, is that you're

(21:55):
helping discover cures todisease. Right. You are helping
move forward the realm ofscientific inquiry inquiry.
Even something like AI, whichthe whole country is talking
about, we're in the middle of anAI race. Much of the original
thinking around that andresearch has been done at
universities like yours. Right.So all of that leadership is, in

(22:19):
theory, in peril. Is thatcorrect?
If we if we don't figure out away to adequately fund it?

I I think look, the pendulum swings back and
forth. I mean, the birth of theresearch university is a post
World War two phenomenon, youknow, and Because of a lot of
technology that was developedduring that time, we won the
war. And then

Right.

A lot of migration happened, great
scientists came to The US, andthen we kept on supporting more
and more research. So theresearch the federal government
has been very generous insupporting research. Right?
Mhmm. So I think what we asrecipients of that money, and we
as scientists and technologists,need to show that we are using

(23:09):
the money responsibly and thatit's making an impact that is
expected from us.
So I think this is aconversation that needs to just
keep on happening. I mean,there is no answer, there's no
single answer which is gonna betrue forever.

Yeah. You really are I mean, I I I've known this
about you for a long time.You're a believer in dialogue.
You you mentioned a moment agorational conversation and
rational thought. Right.
And in the meantime, whileyou're trying to have that
conversation, what adjustmentsdo you make as an institutional
leader? And how are you how areyou planning for this period of

(23:46):
uncertainty?

Institutionally so if, for example, an expense
is not needed today for our toaccomplish our mission. I
basically put a stop to it. Sowould I like to have more new
buildings? Absolutely. But arethey, like, absolutely necessary
for what we're doing today? No.So we're gonna stop the
construction of buildings. So wejust have to be more thoughtful

(24:09):
about how we are using our cash,how we're using our resources.
And we just have to keep onfocus, keep on being focused on
our mission. Our mission is toeducate and to discover
knowledge, to create knowledge,and to disseminate knowledge.
And I think that's what, weshould be focused on doing.

Yeah. I appreciate the the the calm way
in which you think about the setof challenges and that you're
you're sort of resolute ontrying to navigate your way
through it as best you can. Isthere anything else you'd like
to add on that subject before webefore we move on?

Yeah. I I think, look, these are transients. Even
in your personal life, there aresetbacks that people have. It
doesn't make you stop living.
Mhmm. I mean, that's exactly thelesson we learned. And an
institution is just a very bigversion of every individual. And
we wanna make sure that whateverthe impediments are, whatever

(25:09):
the setbacks are, whatever thechallenges are Does not kill the
institution.
It allows the institution tokeep on functioning with a
vision and a mission so that itcan keep on serving society. So
that's how I think about thewhole thing.

Great. So let's come back to the institution
then and the you know, where wewhere we started in talking
about the the long term visionthat you developed after you
came here and then talked to thecommunity and heard about what
it what the community'sinterests were. You really did
invest heavily in buildingbuildings and creating more

(25:48):
student housing than I think anyother is it is it what is this
the the number again or the thestatistic that you use that you
will eventually have morestudent housing?

So we are the second largest housing program
on any campus in the country.

Amazing.

And in a couple of more years

Driven by what?

So driven by a very simple observation. So
remember what we're trying todo. We're trying to expand
access.

Right.

The demand for higher education, and especially
UC education in California, isunbelievable.

Right.

Okay? So even when much of the country's
dealing with reductions ininterest in higher education,
reductions in applications, weat UC San Diego, and I think we
in the UC, are only seeingincreases in our application
rates in interest in education.And UC San Diego being one of

(26:42):
the top UCs, everybody wants tocome to UC San Diego, UC
Berkeley, UCLA. You know whatI'm saying?

Right.

I mean, we're all great institutions. I mean,
like, all of our UCs are reallyspectacular institutions. So my
goal, number one, is to expandaccess, and number two is to
make it affordable. So if youjust look at the cost of
education so right now, ourtuition would be, let's say,
ballpark, $15,000. But to liveon campus or to live outside

(27:13):
campus for a nine month periodcould easily exceed $20,000 to
live outside campus.
$20,000. So already, the cost wepeople complain about the
tuition But the real cost is inliving Which people forget. And
we don't control the cost.
Right? The u c u c I don'tcontrol the cost of living. But

(27:36):
what do I what can I control? Ican control housing.
I can build housing on campusand make it below market. So my
promise to the regents was thatI will build housing on campus,
and I'll make it at least 20%below market. Right? And the 20%
number, there's multipleexplanations, but for me, the

(27:57):
reason to be below market wasthe land was given to me by the
feds, by the city
By the citizens of the state andof this country. And not having
to pay for the land and buildinghousing, I think I have saved
some money that I can give backto the families of the students

(28:17):
who are coming to UC San Diego.

Yeah. And bravo to you.

So we are at least 20%. We're more like 30%
below market. Right? So thatway, we are controlling the cost
of education, and we arecreating more access.
And I do believe thatresidential learning is the best
form of learning. It's the bestform of student experience.

And I cut you off. You you were about to say
that in a couple of years, youwill be the the biggest?

The largest housing program in the country.
Amazing.
Right. So my goal is toguarantee four year housing at
at least 20% below market toeverybody at UC San Diego.

You know, I wanna tie that back to what you
said earlier in in ourconversation about leaning into
an abundance philosophy asopposed to scarcity. Because it
does seem as though higher ed,especially at the more exclusive
levels, sort of did lean intothis notion that to be

(29:17):
considered the best, they had toturn away people and make it
more expensive. And I think someof the unfortunate backlash
we're seeing in the countrydirected towards higher ed may
be because of that. How did yousee your way around that when
you came into this role?

I don't know how to answer that because I do
think that education makes animpact only when more people are
educated, not when fewer peopleare educated. So to me,
abundance has

We gotta write that one down. Yeah.

Has to be the way To think about it. It cannot
be that by controlling access,I'm making myself better. So at
so you see, when I got here, wewere, I don't know, 24,000
students, something like that.And today, we are 46,000.

So you've doubled.

So people's view was and again, look, I took a
lot of flack from a lot of myown people saying you're growing
too much. And in fact, there's anewspaper You're cheating the
product. Like yesterday, youknow, saying how we have become
ugly because we have grown somuch. So and I'll give you
another example of why it's awrong way to think about this.

(30:35):
So we not only grew, but ourfour year graduation rate, when
we were 24,000, was fifty fivepercent.

Fifty five percent.

Fifty five percent, which is very low, by
the way. Yeah. When we are46,000, our four year graduation
rate is seventy seven percent.So we not only grew, but we also
improved the educationaloutcomes, performance of the
institution and of theindividuals. So there are ways
to think about this that peopledon't quite see, somehow people

(31:06):
think by controlling access, youcreate I want us to be an elite
institution.
I don't want us to be an elitistinstitution. In controlling
access, you make yourselfelitist. I want to be approached
by everybody, and everybodyshould feel see themselves at UC
San Diego.

Yeah. You you mentioned that you wanted to
provide another example of why

So the when about five years ago, when we
were thinking about when thelight rail was supposed to be
coming to town. So many, manyyears ago, they were gonna come
to UC San Diego, but somehow thecampus said no, and it went to
San Diego State. Okay.
So when this opportunity came upone more time, this time I said,

(31:48):
yeah, we want the light rail tobe coming to UC San Diego.
Right. So we will carve out apiece of our property, and we
will give you the rights to goon that so we had a conversation
with the city and the county. Alot of people who said, hey,
you're gonna create easy accessto campus. We're gonna get
people who may who who we maynot want here.

(32:10):
And in my mind, I don't think ofpeople I don't want in my
neighborhood.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

I mean, if there's some such person, then I
wanna be able to find a way togive that person an opportunity
to change and not cut offaccess.

Yeah.

We are a public institution, so I wanted to be
connected to the neighborhood.So the way I positioned this was
the light rail will allow us togo into the community and for
the community to come in. Soit's a two way movement of
people back and forth, which iswhat we are trying to do, build
deeper connections.

So it's so interesting. I mean, I'm
immediately reminded of themetro system in DC and how

Didn't go to Georgetown.

It didn't go to Georgetown for precisely the
same reason that people decidedthat they didn't want subway
riders in their Right. Arrivingin their neighborhood.

So when the light rail when we said we're
gonna bring it to campus, that'swhen I bought the building in
Park And Market because that isalso a light rail stop. Alright.
So there are two stops, one onmy campus and one here, both
reflecting each other in aphilosophical way, who we are
into the community and who thecommunity is into us.

And Park And Market, describe that
neighborhood so peopleunderstand

So Park And Market is a building. It's on
the edge of what one would say,the underserved part of
downtown. But in that building,you see a microcosm of UC San
Diego.
You see the arts. You see thevisual arts. You see the
performing arts. You see officesof philanthropic foundations.
You see lectures happening thereevery so often. I mean, you see

(33:48):
a little microcosm of what UCSan Diego is. And as soon as we
are done in one more year withthis thing called the Triton
Center that we're building oncampus, we're going to be able
to beam back and forth from ParkAnd Market to the Triton Center
and back. So the two will beconnected also digitally, where
we can literally experiencewhat's happening at Park And

(34:10):
Market on campus and vice versa

So you can conduct an event in two places
in real time.

Exactly. Exactly.

So the other expression of that recently has
been the Depot. And before weget into the Depot, because I do
wanna come back to to thatagain, I wanna talk about you
and your connection with thearts because what I think I
think what people in wouldtypically associate with UC San
Diego because of the lifesciences and the and the medical

(34:40):
research that's happened thereis that this is a campus that
focuses on technology. It'semblematic of California's
global leadership in terms ofreinventing all manner of
technology, but particularly inthe life sciences space. Yet you
have been somewhat quietly, butmore vocally lately known as an

(35:04):
advocate for the arts. And I'mI'm curious where that came from
for you. You you very kindlymentioned your experience at
Carnegie Mellon earlier, but butit's it it can't just be because
you you saw the convergencethere.

No. Actually, at Carnegie Mellon, I was not much
involved with the arts at all. Imean, I was kinda involved
academically, but not the wayI'm here. Right? Look.
I went to a very eliteundergraduate institution called
the IIT, the Indian Institute,
which is now premier Right?Educational institution.
It is a very elite institutionwhere my incoming class for the

(35:40):
whole campus was only 50students, and my class in
engineering electricalengineering was only about,
like, 25 students. So it was avery elite education. It was a
five year, very technicaleducation, and if we had
humanities, it was to take asingle course in, like, English
or history or something orpsychology. But we never had a

(36:04):
full service humanitiesdepartment, the sociology
department, or so it was a verytechnical education, a very
European way of being educated.So I literally spent five years
of my life being a super nerdlearning more about technology.
When I came to Shock. When Icame to Carnegie Mellon, I mean,

(36:25):
for the master's degree, I mean,the courses were so easy that I
did not even think I was doing amaster's because I knew really I
had done more than what washappening there. Right?

Right.

For me, the challenge was a different way of
learning, a different way ofbeing tested. Right. So what
that has done is I've become,like in my life, a problem
solver. So I see every issue asa problem that needs to be
solved, a problem that hasconstraints that need to be
satisfied. Some can be violated,others cannot be violated.
But somehow, we need to come atthe other end with a solution.

(36:59):
Mhmm. So I come to UC San Diegonow, and I'm looking at the
opportunities. Like, this is,like I said, a gem that needs to
be polished. Mhmm.
This is a gem that needs to findits place on the crown. Mhmm.
And I'm trying to figure out,like, what faces do I polish and
how do I structure its positionso that it really finds its
right place in this ecosystem ofSan Diego.

Mhmm.

So to me, arts was clearly an unutilized and
un, how should I say, exploitedcapacity, and you put La Jolla
Playhouse right there on ourcampus, which has sent a play to
Broadway once every year for thelast thirty seven years.

Right.

Right. So you can see we have great assets. So
I just put the whole thingtogether. I said, look, we need
to use ours. We connected toeducation.
We connected to needs of societywhere we need to understand each
other more culturally ratherthan understand only Newton's
laws of motion. Right? So so tome, it was just like a no it all
just fit in place. Right? And Iwas fortunate because of our

(38:03):
growth and because of our goodfundraising and significant
support from the localcommunity, we had raised
resources that I could startinvesting in the arts.
And this community, if you lookat it carefully, is very arts
based. I mean, a lot ofphilanthropy out here is very
arts based, including thefoundation you lead, Conrad

(38:24):
Prebys, who I knew well, was abig supporter

Big supporter.

Like our music is called the Prebys Auditorium.
Right? Exactly.

Phenomenal acoustics.

Worked out well. I mean, it's just so I don't run
around with a hammer in my handtrying to find every nail. I run
around looking for issues,problems, and trying to figure
out, like, how do we becomerelevant to society? How do we
make an impact on the people whocome and interact with us, who
live in our neighborhood?

So I I I, I have to digress for a moment on with
more of a philosophical questionabout you know, because you
somebody who comes from IIT, andit really is hard to overstate
the excellence of thateducational institution. But it
really is around technology andaround and and then you you go

(39:15):
to a school that's CarnegieMellon that's known primarily,
although it has an excellentarts program, known primarily
for its technology leadership.Then you come here, and I I just
characterize that. Meanwhile, Ithink our our country is
struggling with an understandingof what type of education

(39:37):
matters. So we hear a lot aboutSTEM.
We hear a lot about theimportance of of getting back to
excellence in engineering andmath, and decades of that have
not necessarily produced that inour country. And I just came
back from attending the TEDconference in Vancouver, and the

(39:58):
entire I would describe theentire week, Pradeep, as a a
debate between AI and ourhumanness. Right. So which
manifests a lot in theconversation as art. Right.
So when you think about tryingto educate the whole human on
your campus, how do you thinkabout putting together these

(40:19):
pieces? You know, sure you haveLa Jolla Playhouse, which is
extraordinary, and and now youhave the depot downtown. But how
do you think about integratingit into the way in which you
approach education and the wayin which our country should be
rethinking education?

So it's a complicated question you've
asked. So like, if you look atundergrad education in this
country, it is basically basedaround the notion of educating a
highly functioning citizen Tomaintain the democracy we have,

(40:59):
to just make sure that it wasnot based around just pure
skills. As the country has grownin population, as technology has
grown, what we are finding isand more recent immigrants to
this country, they want theirkids to have more skills that

(41:21):
can be used in finding jobs anda better living and a better
livelihood.
Right? So this notion of, in theold days, if you were like from
a princely family, you goteducated very broadly in horse
riding, in in hunting, and youknow, just like the finer points

(41:41):
of life. Here, we are usingeducation now to live life more
effectively rather than just thefiner points of life.
And in my mind, part of art,humanities, social sciences is
adding those finer points oflife while you're also
developing life skills to make aliving. So to me, that's how it

(42:06):
manifests itself. Now, that'sfor my four year for my kids,
soon to come to UC San Diego.For the normal population, you
know, for people who are workingin the community, living in the
community, may not have anundergrad degree, they still
have an appreciation for a goodplay, a good piece of music, you
know, a good piece of art. So wewant to use those assets that we

(42:30):
have also to bring these peopleto campus
And expose them to art ofmultiple cultures, art of
multiple countries, ethnicities.And that way, we become a more
holistic, integrated, society.

So in that vein, say a little bit about why it
was important to save the Depotto you.

The Depot to be was one more step into down in
downtown. But in this case, itwas already a location for the
arts. It was a location forartists, for cross border
artists that were practicingtheir craft there.

(43:14):
It was a location for performingplays. It was a location for
people to meet and mingle andexchange ideas. And it was one
of those things that if we didnot come in, my fear was it
would be taken over by somecommercial enterprise, and it

(43:35):
would be turned commercial. Andbecause I had this interest in
literally preserving crossborder interactions, so I see
San Diego, you know, I think ofourselves as like a bi national
city.
I mean, I don't think ofourselves as a single nation
city. Right? Yeah. This wholeregion, we all think of
ourselves as a binational Yeah.So the Depot was actually a

(43:57):
moniker that actually capturedthat.
So for me, it was important thatsomebody save it. It did did not
have to be me, but it justturned out that nobody stepped
up. So I said, okay. We'll takecare of it. So I could afford
it.

I I love that you brought up the binational
region. How important is that toyour unique identity as a
university?

I don't know if it's important to our unique
identity as a university, but Ithink it's important to identity
of San Diego. Right. Because weliterally are living in a
continuum out here. I mean,there might be a border dividing
us technically, but it'sliterally a continuum of
cultures.
It's a continuum of just abouteverything. I mean, a lot of

(44:40):
products and services that weoffer on this side of the border
are actually created on thatside of the border, and then
they move back and forth.

Right. Right. Yeah. So we're we're a living
laboratory for the consequencesof of various types of border
policies.

Yeah. I think we really are. In fact, if you look
at if you go south into Tijuana,you see a lot of American
companies with presence likeright there, like literally less
than a mile from the border.

Right. With materials, as you said, going
back

going back and forth.

You know, we've talked about various means of
support for universities and andyour university, the federal
government's role. We haven'treally talked about
philanthropy. And I I I I wantyou to answer this question
without saying anything niceabout us.
Because I don't I don't wantthis to be a self serving

(45:32):
question about Prebys. But howimportant is the role of
philanthropy in San Diego to thesuccess of UCSD?

Actually, I think it's extremely important.
Right? So philanthropy is notjust foundations. Foundations
just come about when somebodywith significant means, passes
away without having spent allthe assets.
So that's what becomes afoundation. But during their
lifetime, and you see this inSan Diego, a lot of people with

(46:00):
significant means invest on adaily basis in just about every
institution in San Diego. So wehave been the beneficiaries of
philanthropists and their visionin multiple different ways, and
I can I see ourselves as beingvery fortunate

And having seen this in other communities, what
strikes you about philanthropyhere that is there is there
anything unique or special aboutthe philanthropy you encounter
in San Diego?

Here, I have a special, how should I say,
position in this communitybecause of my role as
chancellor. So I see it from adifferent level than I saw it
before when I was in Pittsburgh.In Pittsburgh, there are a lot
of foundations. Here, we don'thave that many foundations. But
we have many, manyphilanthropists out here.
We have many individuals whohave assets, who have resources

(46:51):
that they wanna share with thebroader community Right. To make
us a better place, and they doit very generously. In
Pittsburgh, I did not see thaton the individual level. Not
because it doesn't exist, justbecause I was not in a position
to see that.
But on the other hand, I workedwith the foundations a lot
there, And they were verygenerous to us.

It was a different system.

Right?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Well, I am repeatedlystruck by the liveliness of the
philanthropic scene here interms of individual donors like
you just

In fact, out here, I see, like, the people I
deal with, they see philanthropyas a responsibility. They see
philanthropy as a calling. It'sactually interesting, and that
fundamentally changes the waythey have conversations in terms

(47:41):
of support and who they aresupporting and why.
Yeah. They actually see it as aresponse, which I think is
great.

Yeah. There are so many other issues we could
explore. I I'm also aware thatwe're we've run out of time
almost, and I

Did we spend did we talk that long?

We we did, actually. But covered a lot of
ground and and a lot of reallygood content, and I appreciate
your willingness to be candidabout the things that

Right. I just

are happening.

Right. So but I before we finish, I wanna leave
you with I think as we live inany country, there's ups and
downs everywhere. But I can tellyou on the average, there is no
better country than this to livegoing forward because I see a

(48:35):
lot of potential in the way weare building the economy,
developing technology. I think,I think we might be going
through a transient, but I'mvery bullish on who we are,
where we are headed. I'm bullishon higher education.
Again, who we are, where we areheaded. In general, a very
bullish person, even though Imight be pessimistic every so

(48:57):
often, but in general I

I, no. I appreciate the long term view
that you take, and I hope you'reright about all of the those
things. And I I think,absolutely, we we have to
believe in in the direction thelong term direction of the place
that we call home.

Right. And this is home for me.

Yeah. And thank you for and thank you for your
contributions to that. I whichleads me to my final question,
which is and I hate thisquestion in a way because it it
feels like it's a setup to to,you know, a person who's about
to retire, which I hope is notthe case.

Right.

But it's the legacy question about when you
think about what you hope willbe your legacy and your role as
chancellor, what what do youreally want to be able to look
back on when your time is doneand say, during my time, we
accomplished this set of things.

I think there will be a lot to enumerate. But
conceptually, I would look backand say, during my time, we
expanded access in ways thatvery few institutions did, and
we made it affordable enoughthat very few institutions did

(50:20):
in those those many ways. And,of course, the state has helped
too. Don't get me wrong. But theexpansion of access, the way we
have done it, I can guaranteeyou there are hardly any
institutions in the country thathave expanded so fast while
delivering the outcomes forindividuals.

Well, Pradeep, I I think you're obviously well on
your way to to accomplish-

To retirement.

Yeah. No. No. No.
Let's hope not. I, you know, I II really do. You know, I I I
will say this that I thinkregions are defined by the
caliber of the leaders that theyhave in place, and we're very
fortunate as a region to haveyou heading UCSD. And I don't
say that just because you're afriend, but because you are

(51:06):
making a material difference inthe role of the university.

I appreciate that, but I can tell you I'm
fortunate to be in San Diegobecause the community here is so
supportive. And I have beenfortunate to have such a
supportive community. Even whenI've made some mistakes, they've
been behind the institution,behind me. So Alright.
Thank you, everybody, who'slistening.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Alright. Well, what'd you think?

I appreciate how big UC San Diego is in terms of
like all the things it does andall it is to the community.

Yeah. Well, I think I think for people in San
Diego, it may be surprising tohear that what the building
program that that university hasembarked upon is the largest
housing program or will be thelargest housing program in the
country. And and why not in acommunity where there is housing

(52:04):
scarcity and where that's soimportant in terms of reflecting
the growth of the institution.For me, that was maybe the best
entry point into understandingthe vision that Pradeep was
laying out, which was aboutmaking this very valuable

(52:25):
education more broadly availableto more people. I I thought that
was a wonderful part of what wetalked about.

Yeah. And when you two discussed his attendance at
IIT, you know, I guess I wouldexpect someone who went to an
elite, very exclusive school notto wanna open doors for for
other folks, and and he'sclearly the opposite. You know?
The more the merrier, becausethat makes us all more capable
to serve in society, you know.

I I think that was important on on on a couple
of levels. You know, first ofall, his framing of it is we
wanna be an elite institution,but not an elitist institution.
That was so good.

Yeah. Sorry. I'm snapping because I agree with
you.

No. I got it. I got it. Okay. And I, you know, I
think it just it it just is theright goal for particularly a
public university.
But as we're watching thenational debate play out around
higher ed and and the pressurescoming out of the administration

(53:29):
on higher ed, I think part ofthe cultural flashpoint has been
about how people perceive therole of these institutions in
their communities. And what he'ssaying is, yeah, we wanna be
elite in the sense that we'reproviding a first rate education
and a first rate set ofexperiences, but we want it to

(53:51):
be available to more and morepeople. Right. He he referred at
one point, and I came back toit, about, you know, to this
idea of you can't measure howgood you are based on how scarce
you make your product. Youshould be measuring how good you
are based on how broadlyavailable you make and how many
people you include in that.

(54:12):
I thought that was both a lovelyframing and kind of an important
distinction, you know, as we aswe think through what education
ought to look like.

Yeah. Well, and to be a public university and say
you want the community to feellike they they own or
participate in or connected withyou, that is what an asset
should be. It shouldn't be morescarce. That's what he said. It
should be available andconnected.
Even if you don't have a collegedegree, he talked about, you
know, people who maybe canappreciate a good play or a good

(54:45):
song. And and that's right.Offering education in so many
different forms to everyone inthe neighborhood, I think just
adds quality to our society andour connections.

Yeah. It's funny. I I was pressing hard on
the on the scientific researchpiece at the front end, partly
because that is so important tothe economic future of this
region. And when I think aboutAmerican leadership in the world
and curing disease, and by theway, that's one of the areas
that Prebys cares about. Ofcourse, that that matters to us.

(55:19):
But I loved how he came back tobut education is that and it's
about education. Yeah. And thattouches on a lot of things.

Yeah. Yeah. Off of that too, it struck me when you
two discussed the difference ineducation for skill versus, I
guess what I'd say, how to livea good life. And I appreciate
that he he wants to be able tooffer both of those things
because I think depending onwhen you went to school, some of
us learned all the skills, butit's like, now how do I human?

(55:48):
Right?
And he's trying to bring both ofthose things to the table.

That's so nicely said, and and I really
appreciated that answer from himwhen I was pushing him on
philosophy About, you know, whatis education for? The the the
notion that it really should beabout how to deal with life in
this moment and be productiveand and be prepared, but also,

(56:11):
like you just said, how to howto human And and how to be a
good member of society, stillimportant, still part of the
education Right. Just approacheddifferently. Which is I I I
think it helps underscore andexplain why the university has
placed under his leadership suchan emphasis on the arts. And I

(56:33):
think we're delighted that wewhenever we get to work with
UCSD on an arts agenda becausethey bring a scale to it that is
valuable, to the work. And, andit is it is nice to see in this
era of of STEM everything thatthe arts and the what I think of
as the human side still matters.

Yeah. Well and I know we've had some people who
talk about STEM, and thenthere's the STEAM Right. Which
includes the arts. But I thinkyou're right. I think it makes
me think about you know, I, ofcourse, signed up for a
humanities education because Ilike all the the writing,
reading, and philosophy.
But, I think he's talking abouta whole human. When I think
about, you know, the kind ofsociety we want to vote and

(57:18):
engage, we want people whounderstand art and think and can
stop and celebrate resources,but can also do some math. Not
all the math, but some of themath, you know?

So Right.

It's a it's great.

Yeah. A couple of other things I appreciated
about the interview. Iappreciated that he talked about
the importance of listening tocommunity even in a role where I
think sometimes heads of majorinstitutions and universities in
particular don't think of theircommunity as broadly as he did
when he came in. So that'simportant. I think it I I think

(57:51):
there's an important lessonthere generally for anybody
coming into a community in a newrole, to spend some time
thinking about the broadercommunity and what it needs out
of this August institution thatis in its midst.
I appreciated that he waswilling to talk about how it is
to lead in uncertain times.Mhmm. And I I I think he painted

(58:16):
a nice picture for us of what itis like to lead in a in a period
where the rules keep changing

Right.

And where you don't know what tomorrow will
bring. You know, I think as weas we really engaged on the
issue of some of the edictscoming out of Washington right
now, he was appropriatelycareful in responding to those.
But I think I I appreciated thathe was candid about the fact

(58:46):
that it is hard Mhmm. And thatyou have to adapt to the
environment you're operating inand take a longer view.

Right. Yeah. I think even his understanding in
that same vein around, forexample, public transportation.
I didn't know that I have a lotof friends and family who went
to UC San Diego, and they alwaystalked about, yeah, that train
will happen someday, thetrolley. It'll go

there. Right.

And I didn't realize that's how it ended up
at SDSU. But, the fact that thischancellor is able to see, you
know, how do we make it a placethat more people want to come
and feel connected and thepivoting to understand it seems
like he's, like you said,playing that long game, but
having the view that if notright now, like you said, if
there's more buildings we needto build, you know, we'll hold

(59:27):
off for now and, and build onesappropriate. So I think, I think
some people forget that, youknow, these types of leaders are
thinking deeply about what isneeded now. What am I planting
for the future? And I think Imean, this is the UC system is
technically part of government,and and you see that they're
thoughtful, and they're tryingto use their resources well.
And and I would want people toremember that. You know?

Yeah. Actually, that I I'm so glad you brought
that up because the the trolleyis probably a perfect metaphor
for much of what we spoke about.And I I think it's it's really
important to acknowledge thisis, you know, higher ed in
America right now is one of theflash points in our society.

(01:00:11):
It's hard to lead an institutionlike that, period. And we're
dealing with all kinds of policyuncertainty coming out of
Washington.
And some of it, in my opinion,really terribly misguided with
respect to the role of theseinstitutions and the global
leading research that they doand the the way the role they

(01:00:34):
play in setting America apart.All of that said, what he is,
and the university have reallyfocused on is this broader
vision of how they stayconnected with everyone and make
sure that the, you know, thosethose doors of connection and

(01:00:55):
opportunity are wide and notnarrowed. And again, it comes
back to this philosophy ofabundance versus scarcity.

Crystal Page (01:01:02):
Right.

Grant Oliphant (01:01:02):
That for me is gonna be a takeaway that I'm I'm
gonna sit with for a whilebecause I

Me too.

I think it is a good way to think about how we
how we respond to some of whatwe're seeing.

Yeah. I mean, the Tridents play an important role
in San Diego County as as themascot of UC San Diego. Mhmm. So
I think we should close out bysaying maybe go Tritons. Are you
ready?

Alright.

Okay. One two three. Go Tritons.

This is a production of the Previs
Foundation.

Hosted by Grant Oliphant.

Co hosted by Crystal Page.

Co produced by Crystal Page and Adam
Greenfield.

Engineered by Adam Greenfield.

Production coordination by Tess Karesky.

Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina.

Special thanks to the Prebys Foundation team.

The Stop and Talk theme song was created by
San Diego's own Mr. LyricalGroove.

Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at Prebys FDN dot org.

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