September 25, 2024 • 64 mins
In this episode of Stop & Talk, host Grant Oliphant sits down with visionary urban planner Omar Blaik, CEO of U3 Advisors, to explore the future of downtown spaces and their potential to serve all community members. Drawing from his extensive experience revitalizing cities like Philadelphia, Omar discusses the role of thoughtful design in fostering connection, empathy, and vibrancy in urban environments.
Key to the conversation is San Diego's Civic Center—a six-block area around City Hall—which Omar sees as a golden opportunity to reshape the heart of the city. He and Grant delve into how reconnecting the downtown grid, breaking down physical and social barriers, and creating multi-use spaces can transform this site into a dynamic hub that reflects the city's diversity and greatness. Omar emphasizes the importance of designing cities "for us," ensuring that public spaces feel inclusive and welcoming to all, rather than being tailored for tourists or single-use purposes.
The episode touches on the lessons learned from cities around the world, including Omar's native Cairo, and offers a compelling vision for how American cities can evolve to meet the needs of their people, creating spaces that encourage interaction, inclusivity, and sustainability.
Join Grant and Omar as they envision a future for San Diego that not only serves its residents but sets a national example for urban renewal and community engagement.
Credits:
This is a production of the Prebys Foundation.
Hosted by Grant Oliphant
Co-Hosted by Crystal Page
Co-produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield
Engineered by Adam Greenfield
Production Assistance by Tess Karesky
The Stop & Talk Theme song was created by San Diego’s own Mr. Lyrical Groove.
Recorded at the Voice of San Diego Podcast Studio
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Crystal Page (00:10):
Hello, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:11):
Hi, Crystal. How are you doing?
Crystal Page (00:13):
I'm good. How are you?
Grant Oliphant (00:14):
I'm great. I'm really excited about this
conversation today because we'regonna be talking with somebody
who I've known for a lot ofyears and had the privilege to
work with for a lot of thoseyears, Omar Blaik.
Crystal Page (00:26):
I am thrilled because I met Omar for a few
minutes, and he told me you canactually design a city to ensure
that it smells nice and it feelsengaging. I'm sold.
Grant Oliphant (00:37):
Yeah. And that sounds trivial, and it's huge.
You know, one of the things thatI strikes me about Omar, and it
really comes out in thisinterview that we're about to
have, is, he is an award winningthinker about the design of
urban spaces for a very goodreason, and it's because he's
(00:59):
done the work of really thinkingabout what it takes for a city
to design spaces that engagepeople and that are really open
to and for everyone.
Crystal Page (01:11):
And I'm really interested. I read his bio, and
I see that he's originally fromCairo. Yeah. So the idea of
having someone who's been bothinside and outside in the
region, in the community, in thecountry, I think it just brings
a unique perspective. So I hopeyou all address that in your
conversation.
Grant Oliphant (01:28):
Yeah. Well, we will. And part of part of what
he brings to, his work, and Ithink it's really important is
being an immigrant and havinggrown up in an international
city like Cairo, which is whichis where he spent his youth, and
having a sense for what theolder cities do that works and
(01:55):
and, makes for human interactionthat is organic and exciting and
lively and dynamic, all thestuff that we're that we want
here in San Diego. So I thinkthis is an exciting interview,
and and one that will help usshed light on the conversation
we're having in this town, abouta couple of things. 1, of
(02:17):
course, is the project thatwe've engaged Omar to work on
through, our colleagues andfriends at the San Diego
Downtown Partnership, and thatis the focus on what is called
the Civic Center.
The area, the 6 block areaaround city hall, that the city
of San Diego has this uniqueopportunity to use as a showcase
(02:40):
for what the future of downtownsought to be about. So that's one
thing that we're gonna explore.But more broadly, San Diego, of
course, is looking at this wholequestion of what we want the
future of the city to be, andhow we can accommodate everybody
who wants to be here, how we candesign spaces that actually meet
(03:00):
the needs of everybody who'shere, and we're gonna get into
all of that in thisconversation.
Crystal Page (03:06):
Well, I look forward to hearing about the
future of San Diego.
Grant Oliphant (03:08):
Let's dive in.
Crystal Page (03:09):
Let's do it.
Grant Oliphant (03:13):
Alright, Omar. It is so good to have you here.
Omar Blaik (03:16):
It's terrific to be invited to speak with you.
Grant Oliphant (03:19):
Well, you and I have known each other for a long
time, and and we really got toknow each other because we
worked on the ground together intrying to help Pittsburgh get a
very important civic site offthe ground and back into
productive use. But I wannastart here in San Diego, where
(03:41):
you are now working with us atPrebys and with the city and
with the downtown partnership inSan Diego to figure out how to
revitalize and rejuvenate andreimagine a core downtown site
around city hall. And the reasonthis feels important aside from
(04:04):
the fact that it's a reallyimportant site in San Diego is
that every city in America istrying to figure out what to do
with its downtowns right now andsort of rethinking what the
possibilities are. And that'sprecisely the work that you do
is work with communities tofigure out how to use theirs
(04:24):
their space and their place tomake something distinctive that
works for the community. So canwe just talk for a minute about
what attracted you to thisopportunity in San Diego and why
you found it important to sayyes to.
Omar Blaik (04:41):
Other than you?
Grant Oliphant (04:42):
Well, you know, you can you can pay tribute that
way later, but yes.
Omar Blaik (04:47):
I mean, I mean, it's a great opportunity. It's
exactly what you said, Grant. Itsits at the intersection of
every challenge, challenges thatother cities are dealing with.
And, my sense is that, there issomething very unique here, in
(05:08):
San Diego. You guys, you know,you are an amazing city, but
still downtown is is, lacking.
And, how to solve that in a anoverall environment that is not
distressed. The overallenvironment of San Diego is is,
you know, strong, and climate isgood. Demographics are good,
(05:33):
whereas most of the cities weare dealing with are actually
shrinking cities and difficultcities in the Rust Belt and the
like. So this is an opportunitywhere you are trying to solve a
an interesting problem in adifferent type of, or different
kind of space. So I always liketo take challenges that I
haven't, you know, solved in thepast to kind of see how our
(05:56):
thinking can change over timeand be more impactful.
Grant Oliphant (06:01):
It is, I think, easy for people taking a
superficial look at a projectlike the Civic Center in
Downtown San Diego, or theHazelwood Green project that you
helped us with in Pittsburgh, orthe work that you've done in
Downtown Detroit, or the workthat you did originally back in
(06:22):
Philadelphia that really gotyour career in this area
started. It's easy for people tolook at that and say well you
know design is a nice luxury,but what we have to worry about
is and then you'll get a list.And the list in San Diego might
start, understandably withhomelessness and housing. The
(06:45):
list in Pittsburgh started witheconomic development. The list
in Philadelphia, I believe,started with connection with
community.
You look at this through a verybroad lens, this question of how
the design of spaces and placesactually helps a community
achieve its goals. Why is itimportant?
Omar Blaik (07:07):
It's actually fundamental to the way we live
and the way we interact witheach other. As we were walking
here, I told you I feel we, as aas a country, may have a
deficiency in empathy. And thereason why is that we actually
live in places that are notinviting us to interact and to
(07:30):
be together, but in fact, to beseparated. We are separated by
income, by type, by age, byrace.
And design brings peopletogether. The right the the
right way to actually think ofcities and city design. And, you
know, I find it fascinating thatwe, as Americans, we go to
(07:52):
Europe and to the Middle Eastand to elsewhere, and we are
fascinated by cities, fascinatedby you can sit and you can watch
people walk around, and you canwatch grand parents playing with
their grandchildren. Yeah. Butthat's because, in fact, these
are cities that are designed foreverybody, not designed for a
(08:14):
particular use and a particular,demographic.
And we tend here to think, youknow, back in the days when
cities, had the initial struggleafter the the migration out, and
the development of suburbs,well, we will bring stadiums in.
We will bring casinos in. Thenwe will bring businesses in. And
(08:38):
my sense is that you look at, atcities, from Cairo to Shanghai
to London and Paris, these werenot cities that were built 50
years ago. These are cities thatare not struggling with
identity. These are cities, nomatter what the economic
downturn, how bad it is, or thesocial, stress in a society,
(09:02):
nobody asks the question, whatis the role of London anymore?
Or what's the role of Parisanymore? Or what's the role of
Cairo? These are cities that arethriving in in the highs and in
the lows.
Here, when we get a bad downturnof economy, suddenly downtowns
do not have a meaning. Why?Because we have had focused on
(09:24):
one use around downtowns. And wereally need to bring back the
idea that downtowns are really amicrocosm of the community that
we all live in.
It has everybody and not justone type of use.
Grant Oliphant (09:37):
That's, that is a hugely powerful and beautiful
answer, and I wanna hold thatthought for a moment while we
understand a little bit abouthow you got there. And you
mentioned this internationalperspective that you bring to
the work, in part, but only inparts because you are yourself
an immigrant. You were born toLebanese parents and raised in
(10:02):
Cairo. You have you have seenthe world through other places'
eyes, and I'm just curious howthat has affected your thinking
about this work that you're nowreally concentrating on here and
elsewhere around the US.
Omar Blaik (10:18):
I would say affected it in a major way. I, as I see
things as an outsider, so then Idon't, I don't accept the status
quo as, as acceptable. I ask thequestion. I tell you a quick
story.
I came, took my job at Penn, asthe senior vice president for
(10:41):
facilities and real estate. Andthe first thing I realized is
that, they were celebrating achemistry professor winning the
Nobel Prize with a banner thatcrosses crossed Walnut Street.
And I went to- I'm trying toask, how did we
Grant Oliphant (10:59):
And just to anchor people, this is the
University of Pennsylvanialocated in Philadelphia.
Omar Blaik (11:04):
Yes. Located in Philadelphia. And I said, how
are we why are we celebrating aNobel Prize, winner with a
banner that can go for a Targetor a Walmart? Shouldn't we have
a design sensibility to actuallybe a little bit more,
sophisticated in our response tocelebrating a professor like
(11:25):
that?
This is just an example of how Ijust did not accept, the status
quo. I remember I attended thefirst, graduation ceremony at
Penn. And, again, totally lackeddesign. People are going into
different places, dark and noTV. And again, I said, shouldn't
(11:45):
we hire an architect andactually think of this as a
theatrical, experience thatshould, should be well designed.
We actually ended up winning anaward, a design award for, the
graduation ceremony. But all ofthat to say that being
foreigner, having seen citieselsewhere, I come to question,
(12:09):
so why do we do it this way, andwhy do we act in that way? And I
constantly reminded myself thatAmerica is a young country. We
have lived in cities for a few100 years. You know, when you
compare other cultures and otherplaces, they have been living in
cities for 1000s of years.
Grant Oliphant (12:29):
Right. Right.
Omar Blaik (12:29):
And the idea of actually how to navigate the
city and how to enjoy the cityeven though it is crowded and it
could be noisy and all of therest. But many cultures have
figured out a way to actuallymitigate all of that and live a
very rich rich life. Here, weare still young, and we are
(12:51):
getting more sophisticatedaround how we live in cities,
but, it requires somebody toactually push back on the
convention.
Grant Oliphant (13:03):
Yeah. Well, I think one of the conventions
that you pushed back on at theUniversity of Pennsylvania, and
you were working there under aniconic president, Judith Roden,
who went on to head the PewTrusts.
Omar Blaik (13:16):
The Rockefeller Trust.
Grant Oliphant (13:17):
I mean, Rockefeller. Yeah. Sorry. And an
extraordinary leader, and youbrought an extraordinary
perspective, but one of the waysin which you became known on the
national scene was working withher to open up the university to
the community. I think up untilthat point, the university was
notorious for building wallsbetween itself and the
(13:39):
surrounding community, and ifyou looked at the mindset of
most people and universities andinstitutions in community
settings, they were reallytrying to protect themselves
from communities as opposed torelate with communities.
What gave you and her the ideato to change in this way?
(14:03):
Because it was a pretty boldidea at the time. In some ways,
it remains a bold idea thatconnectivity is the thing that
makes a city go.
Omar Blaik (14:10):
I credit Judy, and and John Fry with the majority
of how bold the idea was. I feelthat I was lucky enough to
actually be there as aninstrument, truly translating
their vision into reality on theground. Judy had the draw of the
luck to have been born in WestPhiladelphia and has experienced
(14:33):
West Philadelphia before WestPhiladelphia and Penn were
detached. And so she came as apresident saying, you know, this
is a very insular campus. Thisis not what we what we
experienced when we were livinghere and when she went as a
student, at the University ofPennsylvania.
And hence started a very bigvision. I then became the
(14:57):
architect of how to open thatstreet, how to open the you
know, I took every building,campus building, and put the
main door on the on the publicside rather than the loading
dock. I kind of tweaked withevery building to really open up
the campus, and make it a a partof the fabric of the city. One
(15:17):
of the things that were veryminor in what I did, but I think
it was symbolic, is that Iforced the mail department to
actually, assign, a wall youknow, street addresses to all of
our buildings because the Penncampus sat on an urban grid.
Grant Oliphant (15:35):
Right.
Omar Blaik (15:35):
And, your mail would come to the administration
building, to college hall. No.Each each of these buildings
actually has a street address.Right. And the idea was I wanted
the Penn faculty and staff toconstantly be reminded that they
are part of the city.
Grant Oliphant (15:53):
Yeah. And even so even a small what seems like
a small thing like that can behighly symbolic.
Omar Blaik (15:58):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Grant Oliphant (16:00):
So you helped transform the relationship of
the university to the community,and it became, for those of us
who followed design principles,with respect to urban urban's,
environments and how we thoughtabout cities, it became one of
the, I think, best examples inthe country for a different type
(16:23):
of orientation towards city andcommunity. And from there, it
gave you an idea to start yourown business called U3 Advisors,
which is not just an urbandesign firm. How- what was your
idea with U3, and how would yousay it's evolved?
Omar Blaik (16:42):
So it it has evolved quite a bit because we went
through 2 recessions during, thepast 17 years.
Grant Oliphant: YOu have to stay alive. Right. (16:48):
undefined
Omar Blaik (16:49):
17 years, I had to stay alive, in some, periods of
time. I actually, in many ways,didn't want to start a
consulting firm that doesanalysis, issue reports, and
moves on.
I felt that what made itdifferent at Penn was the impact
(17:10):
we finally were able to achievewas the perseverance of actually
turning the ideas into action.And you cannot do that in
regular consulting work. So Ikept trying to figure out how do
you actually get paid, and inthe same time, you stay the
course to implement. And trytrials and errors for a year
(17:35):
before, before I was called uponby David Egner of Hudson Webber
and Rip Rapson of, of Kresge whocame to visit Penn, and they
called me to meet with them.
We met in a Starbucks, beforethey departed Philadelphia to
say, would you be interested incoming to Detroit? And it, in
(17:59):
many ways, I said this is thisis a huge challenge Mhmm. But in
the same time, a gift becausemany people try to dismiss what
happened at Penn being,Philadelphia is the 5th largest
city. Mhmm.
And Penn is one of the most,well endowed private
institutions. So you throw moneyat it and somehow you solve the
(18:21):
problem. Going to Detroit, youare not in the largest in the-
5th largest city. It's ashrinking city. The mayor was, I
believe, at that point in 2008,was in prison.
Grant Oliphant (18:33):
Wildly different situation.
Omar Blaik (18:35):
Yes. The auto industry was totally in
shambles. And for and then weare working with public
institutions, the, you know,Wayne State, and, Detroit
Medical Center. It's not anymorethe private elite. So I said if
we can do it in Detroit, and ifwe can make an impact, we can
really make an impact everywhereelse.
(18:56):
So we we tried in Detroit, andwe started with our vision of
how to rethink the enterprise ofuniversities and hospitals to
impact their local community.And the more and we had a simple
idea. The more the universitymeans something to the community
and the community meanssomething to the university, the
more their natural bond thatwill not really be separated.
(19:20):
And, we were able to actually,through the work of Kresge
Foundation and Hudson Webber, tostay the course and really turn
around midtown, was amazing. Andwe continue to actually work in
Detroit 16 years later.
And that almost put us on thenational, radar screen because,
(19:40):
again, Penn was dismissed as youthrow money at it, you can you
can make it work. And fromthere, went to Maryland and, and
Newark and, eventually showed upat Pittsburgh.
Grant Oliphant (19:53):
Right. Which I used to think of as the capstone
of your career.
Omar Blaik (19:56):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (19:56):
Now I think San Diego is that.
You know, I think, what I what Ihear in that brief history is
the emphasis you place onconnecting institutions with
community and with place andrestoring connectivity. What it
brings up for me is that so muchof urban design, at least in the
(20:19):
20th century, was aboutsegregating and disconnecting.
And lots of communities stilllive with the psychological and
geographical and economic scarsof that where poor communities
were separated, traditionallyBlack communities were
separated, you know, the wholehistory of Robert Moses' highway
(20:44):
network, and the way in which itseparated people into different
communities and geographies, andalso from nature in some
extraordinary ways. So we willhave we will have to understand
and forgive many people who hearthat you're from urban planning
(21:04):
and are there to help for beinga little suspicious. So How do
you help people see that whatyou're really doing is something
different?
Omar Blaik (21:13):
So I'll tell you a Penn story, that, gives you a
sense of how I have approachedthings, for the past 16 years.
So at Penn, we were trying to,revitalize a commercial corridor
that really was, filled with theworst uses that you can possibly
(21:34):
think of at the doorsteps of theinstitution on fortieth Street.
And I I asked why don't weactually have a community hall
meeting and invite neighbors andbusinesses and just ask the
question. Everybody was verytimid. You are going without a
plan.
I said, yeah. I mean, eventuallyI have trust that everybody
wants the same thing. You know,they want clean and safe and
(21:56):
thriving commercial corridor andthe like. So we attended the
meeting and about 100 peopleshowed up. And I introduced
myself and, you know, where wesaid, Penn is not going to force
anything on anybody, but we wantto know what you have, what you
are aspiring for.
An African American woman, youknow, asked to speak, she
(22:18):
probably was in her eighties.And she then asked me a question
that froze me. She said, misterBlaik, is Penn moving us again?
And I had to think about why. Imean, I have not proposed
anything, like that.
Turned out that I don't know howmuch you know the history of
(22:38):
urban renewal around, WestPhiladelphia. Black Bottom was a
working class, neighborhood onthe northern edge of the Penn
campus. Through urban renewal,people were moved, out by force,
and compensated, minimally. Andshe eventually moved to a,
(23:01):
senior housing that sits on 40thStreet. So she was anxious that
40 years later, she was going tobe moved again because Penn is
planning something.
Grant Oliphant (23:10):
And it's still alive in her memory. Of course.
Omar Blaik (23:12):
Still alive. And I think I have aged about 10 years
in that in that moment. But itgives me a it gave me a light
bulb that said, cannot doanything without the people that
surround you. Cannot forceanybody to do anything.
At the end of the day, people byand large actually want almost
the same thing. So if you bemore if you lead with
(23:36):
vulnerability and open up, it'snot a point of weakness. It's
actually going to make youstronger. And our and that
approach we apply everywhere ifan institution cannot succeed on
its own. A city cannot succeedby separating different
communities.
Every everybody needs toactually be part of what gets
(23:58):
created and have a sense ofownership of it. And I think
that's the that's maybe the keymoment for me.
Grant Oliphant (24:05):
So as you look at this project in San Diego,
how do we avoid making that samemistake?
Omar Blaik (24:13):
We we need to make the civic center meaningful to
everybody, every community inSan Diego, and not to a
particular use or a particulartype. And that requires a lot of
engagement to actually translatewhat that meaning means. And, in
in many ways, you we cannot makethe same mistake again and
(24:38):
replace one use with anothersingle use.
Grant Oliphant (24:41):
Right.
Omar Blaik (24:41):
And, my my sense is that similar to many other
downtowns that are struggling,we need to really bring rather
than one large type of uses. Weneed to bring in smaller, more
nimble, but diverse set of uses.In many ways, I always think,
(25:03):
you know, great cities are notmade of one great project, are
made of many small greatprojects. And size matters,
scale matter. And the idea isthat if you can create a a
diversity of uses that areconnected to the community, at
the larger community in SanDiego, then the place will mean
(25:25):
something.
Grant Oliphant (25:26):
So let's let's deepen the conversation about
the opportunity in San Diego,but sort of through the lens of
how you do this well regardlessof where you are. What you're
talking about here is engagingthe community in an open and
authentic process, recognizingthat the constituents for this
(25:47):
part of a city are broad. Youknow? They're
Omar Blaik (25:50):
Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant (25:50):
They're and extensive. I love your notion of
thinking about multiple uses andnot one single great heroic
project. Mhmm. I think that'simportant. When I look at this
section of downtown, it sort of,for me, embodies a lot of the
classic approaches of 50 yearsago, 60 years ago to how you how
(26:12):
you rejuvenated downtown.
Mhmm. So they disconnected theurban grid, created a concrete
plaza in the middle of And
Omar Blaik (26:23):
elevated one.
Grant Oliphant (26:24):
And elevated it, so took it away from the street.
And the notion at the time I'vegone back and read the the
visioning documents and thereporting on it. The notion at
the time was this would be aniconic symbol of what downtown
was. What everybody forgot wasit would also divorce that space
from the streets. It woulddisconnect that space from the
(26:48):
grid that surrounded it.
Like so many other similarprojects over time, you saw a
degradation in use, an erosionof of, population around it, and
ultimately to where we are. Oh,and making the iconic feature a
parking lot. Yep. So no. Whichis which is a mistake that's
(27:10):
played out in so manycommunities.
But how how, are you thinkingabout undoing those mistakes, or
is that the approach you take asyou think as you're helping a
community think through a
Omar Blaik (27:24):
project? So listening and actually better
understanding the history ofboth the place and the people,
as it interacts in that place isis is number 1. The second part
is to actually look at where arethe blocks that exist physically
that disconnect people from theactivity that's happening
(27:46):
inside. City hall is not, verydifferent than many universities
and hospitals. The way they aredesigned, there is a vocabulary
of separation and segregation.
You elevate, you create someplatforms, you actually put the
loading docks on the mainstreet, and by doing that, you
are, bottling all of the energyinside the the space. And, a
(28:11):
good design really emanates thatenergy outside. And in emanating
it outside, you are attractingauthentic users coming in, and
you create that energy that weare all looking for. So, the one
of the main important things isto actually remove those
disconnections and reconnect.Similar to what, what, you know,
(28:32):
the Penn campus and andreconnecting it to the grid, we
need to connect the site back tothe grid. How and where exactly
and what opportunities itprovides for development, all of
that needs to be studied. But itis obvious that the site has
been designed to actuallyseparate you from the rest of
the city. And the outcome todaycould have been predicted long
(28:55):
time ago because of the way itwas designed.
Grant Oliphant (28:58):
And yet we did that in community upon community
upon community because it wasthe orthodoxy of the time. Yep.
But you're right. If if we hadthought through the power of
connectivity, we wouldn't havedone that.
Omar Blaik (29:09):
Exactly.
Grant Oliphant (29:10):
You know, I'm I'm going to say something, and
I'll say it that maybe will getme in trouble, but I've said it
in other places, so I I I thinkI just have to be honest about
it. I came here from a town thatstruggled with the idea of
thinking in in in greatnessterms when thinking about
(29:33):
design, because it had beenthrough a the city had been
through a near death experience.I'm talking about Pittsburgh
now,
and for the longest time, therewas a mindset of we have to take
what we can get. We have to bewilling to- and yet there was a
repeated willingness over timeto rise above that. What the
(29:55):
city was in constant tensionover was this instinct to dumb
things down and not reallyaspire versus this willingness
to say, you know, we're gonnatry and to do great things as a
result. It's really how theentire waterfront of the city
(30:15):
got reinvented.
It was where the 2 renaissanceof the city came from.
Interestingly for me in SanDiego, which is a wildly
different economic place whereland has value and there's
momentum and energy, there'sstill the same human struggle
(30:35):
between thinking that we have totake what we can get because a
project may not fit in ourpsychology of where greatness
can happen, and nonethelesswanting to do it. And what I
found as we've taken on thecivic center project is there's
a thirst in this town for bigideas
Omar Blaik (30:54):
Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant (30:55):
And there's a fear about whether we can
actually do them. How have youseen that play out in other
communities, and how are youseeing it play out here?
Omar Blaik (31:04):
It, I actually think it plays out almost in every, in
every city where there is asense that we are not good
enough to actually do x or y.And, it requires leadership. I
would say there are so manysimilarities between San Diego
(31:24):
and Philadelphia. Philadelphiafor, the longest time, kind of
felt unseen between beingbetween New York and Washington,
DC. We, you know, we are noteven on the main highway between
the 2, the 2 big cities, centerof government and center of
finance.
And Philadelphia for decades,saw itself as a smaller,
(31:51):
provincial type town. And youlook at, Philadelphia today,
it's a in a very differentplace. It's, the center of life
science, and, eds and meds areare very, prominent. And it's
one of the most livable cities,has the best food scene in, in,
the country, and has probablysome of the most diverse,
(32:15):
housing stocks and housingtypologies that allows to
accommodate the younger familiesand the bachelors and the older
folks. And it's a city that hastransit, life.
And my sense is that San Diegohas some of those complexities
that, you know, that we areovershadowed by San Francisco
and LA. But San Diego hasamazing assets going for it.
(32:40):
And, and it's not just theclimate, and it's not just the,
you know, the lifestyle. Youknow, you are next to a border
that has the highest trade,traffic in, I believe, in the
world, has amazing interchangeof cultures between Mexico and
here. You are sitting, on thedoorsteps of amazing life
(33:01):
science, you know, powerhouse inUCSD.
And all of that should actuallygive you the the confidence that
downtown and the heart ofdowntown ought to really reflect
the greatness of San Diego. Andthat's, I think, what we are
(33:22):
hoping to achieve.
Grant Oliphant (33:24):
Yeah. So when you think about this
opportunity, and I love thatanswer because I believe the
same thing myself, but when youthink about the the opportunity
that is represented by the CivicCenter and the downtown project,
what do you want San Diegans tobelieve about it? And how would
you talk about it in othercommunities around the country
(33:44):
that you how would you describethis as an opportunity for us?
Omar Blaik (33:49):
I think that you can actually redefine what downtowns
are, and and that can be a greatservice to many other cities
across, the country that arereaching, you know, 40%
vacancies in their commercials,office space and, major issues
of homelessness and blight, inthe core of their cities. So
(34:14):
one, one, I think you have theopportunity to really redefine
downtowns. And, and that's whatattracted me to this opportunity
and with the kindness of youcalling me asking, would I be
interested? And, of course Isaid yes. I think the the the
(34:35):
other thing that, that we needto be thinking about is saying
that a great mentor of mine and,somebody I I really, admire is
Laurie Olin, the famous,landscape architect who, one
time told me, you know, in in,Europe, cities build parks for
(35:00):
the community around the parks.
And then everybody from the restof the world come to visit those
parks.
Grant Oliphant (35:07):
Parks. Mhmm.
Omar Blaik (35:08):
And then in America, we build parks for tourists. And
nobody shows up. And I think inmany ways, that's what we want
to do here in downtown. Weactually want to build downtown
for us. Let's stop thinking weare building downtown core for
the for the convention crowd orfor the sports crowd or for the
(35:33):
tourists that are comingthrough. No. We want to build
downtown for us. And when webuild downtown for us and it is
beaming with the authenticity ofthe community, we will be an
amazing destination.
And I think that's how you flipit.
Grant Oliphant (35:48):
I just love that inversion of the usual or you
know, the the usual way ofthinking about it is define
greatness based on what the restof the world will wanna come and
see. You're defining it based onwhat we will want to enjoy.
Omar Blaik (36:00):
Yeah. What we have and what we want.
Grant Oliphant (36:02):
So, in a way that that is the answer to the
question I was about to ask you,but I still wanna ask you
because I think there may bemore there. You know, I wanna
start by acknowledging the roleof the mayor, Todd Gloria, and
of the city in being willing totake on this broader view
(36:22):
because the easiest thing forthem to do as in so many other
places would have been to justgo out and sell a bunch of
parcels and call it a a day. Itis harder to sign up for the
long term change project, thatwe that we're imagining here. So
I'm grateful for that.
(36:43):
And we don't wanna get ahead ofthat process, but are you
already beginning to seeprinciples coming out of the
conversations that you're havingwith community and leaders in
the community, that you thinkare going to be important for
this project going forward?
Omar Blaik (37:01):
I believe so. I actually think what I shared is
not something that we just areadvocating, but, actually what
we are listening and hearingfrom, many different
constituencies. And that, Ithink, is is very much, a sense
of, oh, I think we are on on theright path. I believe the
(37:25):
principles the main principlesin my mind are, let's make the
site reconnected back to thecity.
Let's come up with multipleuses, that, that have a public
meaning, not multiple uses wherewe are just building
condominiums and officebuildings. And, you know, it's
(37:46):
almost like everything that getsbuilt there needs to have a
public purpose, whether it,whether the perimeter of that
building is engaging thecommunity, whether the uses
inside are actually meaningful.And then you you want them to be
meaningful to differentconstituencies, so then you can
create the interaction betweenthe diversity of who we are. So
(38:09):
the the disconnection, you know,dealing with the disconnection,
picking up the right uses, andthen design. At the end of the
day, redesigning the publicrealm is going to be
fundamentally important.
And I think you then go out andengage the private sector with
an idea in mind rather than goout and engage the private
(38:31):
sector to just maximize, youknow, income. And I think those
are 2 very different,approaches.
Grant Oliphant (38:37):
Yeah. In so many projects, what you hear though
is if you add too much burdenbefore you go out to the private
sector, the private sector isn'tgoing to take on the project
because it will be too expensiveor too hard or too burdensome.
Why doesn't it scare you? Andyou've done this over and over
again, and you've seen theopposite happen. Why doesn't it
(39:00):
scare you, and why doesn't itscare developers in those cases?
Omar Blaik (39:04):
Because I've seen it many times before. If you have a
vision and you have leadership,you actually find the resources.
I actually there is, a jokewithin the office that I came up
with a formula that's called requals v plus l.
Grant Oliphant (39:18):
R equals v plus l.
Omar Blaik (39:20):
Yes. And if you have the vision and the leadership,
resources are going to show up.Mhmm. And, I believe that this
is the the city needs to leadwith ideas. And the ideas bring
resources with them.
If the city lacks the ideas,then we are left to the private
sector funding. And then as yousaid, it's a formula based, and
(39:43):
there is, you need the projectneeds to pencil out at the end
of the day. So but if you moveforward with an idea, other
resources actually can, can besurfaced.
Grant Oliphant (39:54):
So this is a, both a a big site and a small
site at the same time. It's bigin the sense that it's multiple
city blocks in the heart ofdowntown. It's small because the
footprint of that is smallcompared to a lot of other
scales of projects. And in theconversations that I've been
(40:15):
present present for, I think thefeedback from the community has
been that we want to see housingon the site. We wanna see public
spaces and amenities and parkson the site.
We wanna see art, and we wannasee culture on the site. We want
academic uses woven into it, andwe want to meet the public
(40:39):
infrastructure needs that exist.The need for the city to have a
new administration buildingsomewhere connected to this
project. So a lot ofexpectations. Is it possible for
a project like this to meet allof those expectations?
Omar Blaik (40:56):
In the wider sense, yes. But in the specific on the
footprint of the site probablyno, because it's a small a
smaller site. And the idea isthat you need to actually keep
enough of the uses that willtransform the identity of that,
precinct. And then hope that theother uses will start to get,
(41:18):
sprinkled around, but not on thesite.
Because the site is tight toactually have all of these, uses
that we listen to and you heardas well. To be on the site. So I
think, it is so important todecide what comes first because
a project, a particular use, canin fact cascade other type of
(41:41):
uses that are mentioned here allaround us, and there is other
uses that in fact will totallybottle up the energy again on
the site, and we don't want todo that.
Grant Oliphant (41:53):
Yeah. I really appreciate you're saying that
because by restoringconnectivity to the site, you
can think more expansively aboutthe site than just the footprint
of the site. Let's talk a littlebit about how this is going to
work so people understand whatit is that the the city has
taken on. The city has has,through the Downtown
(42:15):
Partnership, agreed to work withyou to figure out how to get to
a a vision that can then guidea... can then guide what? Why
don't you describe what it isthat's going to guide?
Omar Blaik (42:30):
So if we are in a normal economic situation, If we
are in a normal economic,situation, and we believe that
the vision is well defined thatwhat we would
approach, the client, the cityhere and and the downtown
partnership, to actually go outto the prior to the market, with
the vision, with the requirementof what are the public uses that
(42:52):
we want to see on the site, andthen engage the private sector
in either a design competitionor a set of, requests for
interest as well as a requestfor proposals, eventually, and
then you pick from from that.The the trick we we are
struggling with is that theeconomics, conditions for
(43:15):
development today are not ideal.So you want to be going out to
the market at the right time. Sowe think there is quite a bit of
work that can be, preparing thesite, not only the vision and
socializing the vision with allof the approval entities, but
also getting the mechanism forhow a development on a site like
(43:37):
that can in fact take place.
Because not necessarilyeverything has to be done by the
city. You can actually, have,have other, NGOs involved in in
guiding, or providing thatstewardship. But, we can provide
a lot of that work waiting forthe market to actually be ready
(43:59):
for an engagement on an RFPprocess. So we that's where we
are leaning towards, getting thevision clarified and defined and
and socialized, and then gettingthe mechanism of execution
approved. And then you go out tothe market when the market is
ready.
Grant Oliphant (44:19):
And the RFP is a request for proposals where you
actually look for people who arewilling to sign up for some
version of this vision.
Omar Blaik (44:26):
And we believe that this is an RFP that we want to
team developers with plannersand architects so that actually
there is some sort of acompetition. That because, you
know, we may get ideas that havenot been, discussed before. So
we and we want to elevate theelement of design. So we want to
(44:50):
pick teams, not just thedeveloper.
Grant Oliphant (44:53):
Oh, that's exciting. So teams who will
represent both the capacity todeliver the project, but also
the capacity to deliver on thevision.
Omar Blaik (45:03):
Exactly. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant (45:04):
Interesting. That's exciting. So given that
community engagement is socentral to how you're
approaching this, I think whereI wanna end this is to come back
to that, that it's one of thefirst principles you stated in
this conversation, theimportance of talking with
community in an authentic way.And I would say what you've been
(45:26):
doing these last many months isnothing but talking with various
stakeholders from leaders oflarge institutions to design
organizations and interestedstakeholders who believe that
they have some kind of stake inwhat happens with downtown. Does
that process abruptly end whenyou go into the RFP process, or
(45:52):
does it continue somehow?
Omar Blaik (45:54):
So I believe the engagement, are to be an ongoing
process. So the the content ofthe engagement reflects the
stage that you are in. In an RFPprocess, the engagement has to
continue as it relates toreviewing the proposals, as it,
as it relates to selecting thedeveloper. My sense is that even
(46:18):
when a developer gets selected,there needs to be a process
where the developer now isengaging with, different
stakeholders. So I would,advocate that this is a process
that needs to to continue to bein place rather than just for a
particular assignment.
Grant Oliphant (46:37):
Well, Omar, unfortunately, our time has run
out, but I have to say, it is ajoy to get to work with you
again on a project like this.And I I believe what you said,
which is that San Diego has ahuge opportunity here, not only
to deliver on a great projectfor itself, but to do so in a
(46:58):
way that other communities willwanna pay attention to and learn
from, and, you know, may we besuccessful in
Omar Blaik (47:06):
May we be successful. Well, the honors are
are mine, and the privilege ismine, Grant to have been,
contacted by you and the PrebysFoundation. And, you know, met
when we met with the mayor,amazing amazing leadership that
we have here. I really think wehave a great opportunity, to to
succeed.
Grant Oliphant (47:25):
Alright. From your lips to God's ears, we'll
leave it at that. Omar Blaik,thank you so much.
Omar Blaik (47:30):
Thank you. Thank you so much, Grant.
Crystal Page (47:36):
That was such an eclectic conversation. I loved
it.
Grant Oliphant (47:39):
Eclectic might be the perfect word for it. If
you think about it, cities areeclectic. Right? They're they're
meeting places for peoplebutting up against each other
who may not necessarilyorganically always end up in the
same spot. But, you know, welive in this in this space, we
work in this space, we havepeople visiting in this space,
(48:02):
go to school, and all of thathas to be accommodated by the
same space.
And I just loved talking to Omarabout what it looks like for a
city to make all of that work.
Crystal Page (48:16):
Yes. And I hadn't thought about how the current
design may or may not feelwelcoming. Right? The way the
that city hall has these stepsup. It kinda separates it from
the rest of the street.
And now that I think about it, Iwas like, oh, yeah. It doesn't
have a flow that makes me wannawalk into it and engage and be
curious. And so, I reallyappreciated his thoughts and his
(48:39):
approach on, what is friendlyand welcoming design in 2024.
Grant Oliphant (48:44):
Yeah. Well, your your use of the word flow
actually grabs me because Iactually think that's the secret
here. You know, there was aperiod in American architecture
and design, and urban thinkingthat was all about breaking up
spaces, and I think our cityhall complex, the Civic Center,
(49:09):
in some ways embodies that. It'syeah the steps that create a
discontinuity with the street,the breaking up of the street
grid so that traffic didn't flowthrough anymore, really creating
ramps that divide the sidewalkfrom the experience that's
happening at the center,creating blank walls so
(49:32):
pedestrians are disconnectedfrom the space. It ends up being
disconnected all the way around.
And I remember looking at, atphotographs and drawings of the
space when it was beingconceived and being sold to the
public you know, 60 years ago.And, it really looks beautiful
(49:56):
in the drawings, and and it'sactually maybe one of the
warnings about how we thinkabout spaces. What people really
want, and I think Omar drewattention to this, is they want
flow. You know, they want to beable to move from one space to
the other. They wanna be able tosee where they're going.
They wanna be able to walk intoan area and feel like it's
(50:19):
welcoming regardless of who theyare. And I just I really
appreciated Omar's perspectiveon that.
Crystal Page (50:26):
Yeah. Now that you're saying that, I'm
imagining, like, where we are inLittle Italy. Right? You can see
down the road when there's thefarmer's market, or you see down
to the water. And so I thinkit's a huge opportunity for San
Diego, assuming, you know, themayor and the council members
and everyone likes, whateverDowntown Partnership and U3
develops.
(50:47):
I think there's such anopportunity there to make every
make that 6th parcel feel likedowntown the rest of downtown
does. Right? Like Comic Con.You're turning corners. You're
seeing the wraps from thisyear's 2024 Comic Con, and it's
exciting and engaging, and Ihope we continue with that
spirit.
Grant Oliphant (51:07):
Yeah. Well, I think we will. You know, first
of all, I it says a lot aboutSan Diego and the mayor that,
the city has been willing toembark on this process. And just
ask the question, what isdowntown for? How can we take
these 6 blocks and turn theminto more than the sum of their
(51:28):
proverbial parts, and and reallytry and make it part of the
urban fabric again, and make itadd to San Diego.
You know, if you think aboutwhat people love here, and I've
asked that question of so manyfolks in my early time here in
in the city, the the answers areall over the lot. Some people
(51:49):
like the ocean, and some peoplelike the desert, and some but
what they regardless of whatwhat attributes they point to,
they all love the opportunitythat the city affords to connect
with all of those spaces andwith and to connect in an easy
way with opportunities for art,for culture, for nature, for
(52:12):
beauty, for the things that theyappreciate. And, I think I think
this package of land can be areal opportunity for San Diego
to help the rest of the countryanswer a question that we're all
everybody's grappling with,which is what's the next thing
we can do to make cities evenbetter and more lively, and to
(52:34):
keep downtowns an important partof the American fabric the way
that they have been. You know,and what I would also point out
is downtowns go through ups anddowns always. There are ebbs and
flows to what how people engagewith downtowns, and partly it's
because of changing tastes,partly it's because of lessons
(52:56):
that we needed to learn abouthow to design those spaces.
And we're going through one ofthose changes now, and this is a
golden opportunity to design acity that we are really proud
of, and that people will lookback 50 years from now and say,
wow. They really got that right.As I'm sure they will about so
many other things that exist inthe city now, like starting with
(53:19):
Balboa Park.
Crystal Page (53:20):
Oh, yeah. Balboa Park, The Shell, Petco Park is
truly world class, all thesethings. So I think you're a 100%
right in you know, we want folksto look back and feel proud.
That's not to say we're notalready awesome because San
Diego is an awesome city.
Grant Oliphant (53:35):
Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is you're
building on strengths.
Crystal Page (53:38):
Exactly. And I think, you know, I just came
back from a Comic Con, sowalking down the gas lamp
quarter, just to you know, Idon't know how it all gets done,
but to feel curious about thesebuildings, like you said, the
art having the murals, or Ithink Omar mentioned at some
point the, multi use spaceswhere maybe there's a vendor
(53:59):
who's there or a a renter orsomething. All those things will
diversify and and make spacesmore engaging.
Grant Oliphant (54:05):
You know, I think spaces that perform
functions, that appeal to peopleon multiple levels, that's
really important. And I yeah.You really get, I was I missed
this year's Comic Con, as youknow, but I think what is
magical when you're in the cityfor an event like that, and and
(54:27):
it's just a singular kind ofevent for San Diego to host. But
part of what's magical is yousee people interacting with the
city, and they're they'reobviously engaging with, the
park, with Balboa Park, they'reengaging with the cultural
district, they're engaging withthe museum, they're engaging
with the convention center, theythey walk to the waterfront,
(54:51):
they walk into the gas lampquarter, they walk into Little
Italy. There's just so much toexperience, and how we continue
to build on that is actually animportant question for this
generation.
You know, we tend to think thatcities happen by accident, but
they're actually a series ofconsequential decisions that
(55:12):
happen over time, and the greatcities make those decisions in a
really thoughtful and anddeliberate way, and they think
about what it is that peoplereally need from a city, which
by the way is kind of differentthan where we were 50 or 60
years ago when it was reallyabout what architects wanted, or
(55:33):
what designers thought wasimportant. One of the lessons
we've learned is you gotta askpeople, you've gotta engage
community, and you've gottalearn from them about what it is
they aspire to in a community,and then you start designing
really great spaces and places.And San Diego deserves it has it
has many and it deserves more,and we're in the process now of
(55:56):
making decisions that will shapethe future of this city and how
it's perceived. So we should doit with some real creativity and
responsibility.
Crystal Page (56:05):
And, Grant, you and Omar, in the conversation,
discussed different regions he'sworked in, different cities, and
I know you all mentioned workingtogether in Pittsburgh. So can
you talk about what thedevelopment of of that downtown,
what what role he played there,and and and what you took away
from that?
Grant Oliphant (56:22):
Yeah. Well so that project, which was known as
Hazelwood Green, was basicallythe redemption of a 170 Acre
site that was a former steelmill that had been closed
obviously, and then torn down.An amazing open space in the
(56:43):
city on the riverfront in kindof a neighborhood that was still
struggling, but nonetheless abeautiful old neighborhood that
sat just downhill from the majoruniversity center in Pittsburgh.
So it was a it was a prettyspecial place, but in a town
(57:06):
where not a lot of developmenthas happened, not like it
happens in San Diego. And togive you an idea of how stark
the difference is, inPittsburgh, the idea that land
like that would have value issimply not the case.
(57:27):
You know? The land, almost hasto be contributed to help it be
developed in a way. Whereas inSan Diego, land has enormous
value, and, for people in SanDiego it's probably impossible
to conceive of that environment,but for much of America,
particularly in the middle ofthe country, that's often what
(57:48):
you encounter is a realchallenge to development that
starts with what is the value ofthe land itself. And what Omar
did with us was figure out howto come up with a vision for the
use of that land that wouldconnect with developers and
create an incentive for partnersto wanna come to the table and
develop that project. And, theHeinz Endowments, which I was
(58:13):
working with alongside with,Richard King Mellon Foundation
and, and, the Benedum Foundationin Pittsburgh jointly figured
this figured this out, and theproject is now well underway.
And it's exciting because it'sturning what used to be a symbol
(58:33):
of old, the old economy, into asymbol of a vibrant new city and
a vibrant new economy. In a in away every project is like that.
The dynamics may be different,but what Omar understands, and I
think he spoke to this, is everytime we go into one of these
(58:54):
projects we're thinking throughthe story that you're telling
about the city that you're in.And the story I know that the
downtown partnership wants totell and the mayor wants to tell
and we certainly wanna tell isthe story of a dynamic city that
values everyone, but also caresabout, really good design,
(59:18):
connection with art, connectionwith nature, and inspiring
places.
Crystal Page (59:26):
Well and what's striking to me, right, even
though the land is not valuedwas not valued the same there, I
do think it sounds like you hadto build kind of the coalition
of the willing. Right? We knowhere, sometimes there's the doom
loop of we can't have nicethings, but we can. Yeah. So I'm
just really curious in terms of,did you watch people through
(59:47):
that process, like, get moreexcited and on board with this
idea?
What did that look and feellike?
Grant Oliphant (59:52):
You know the start of any I I think this is
true everywhere. The start ofany visioning process is people
asking, well, what makes youthink that we could do that? Or
what makes you believe that wecould aspire to something
different than what, you know,what we have, or, who appointed
you to lead that? And that'sjust in the nature of
(01:00:15):
leadership, and I think in everycase where change happens,
somebody steps forward and helpsstart the conversation and put
some resources on the table, andthen, yes, others step in, and
if the if the vision isexciting, then what you see is
more and more owners of thatprocess taking it over. I think
(01:00:36):
we can do the I think we wewe're already experiencing the
same thing here.
There are so many people in SanDiego actually, we're way ahead
of the game because there are somany people in San Diego who
wanna see this project be great,and who are really thirsting for
an opportunity to prove that wecan do something exceptional in
this space. I am so jazzed aboutthe possibilities there,
(01:00:58):
especially because we're workingwith somebody like Omar who gets
it and can help the city and andall of us figure out what the
art of the possible is in ourdowntown.
Crystal Page (01:01:10):
Well and what you said that just stood out to me,
I think it, calls back to yourconversation with Omar where he
really talked about if there'sleadership and or vision,
resources will follow that, andI I hope I think that's what
we're seeing here. Right?There's there's a hope. There's
a vision. It's getting refinedand, hopefully, it's like field
of dreams.
(01:01:30):
If you build it, they will come,you know?
Grant Oliphant (01:01:31):
Yeah. Well, and I think the beauty of that
statement, you know, if youbuild it, they will come is when
you oftentimes when you start atthe front end with an idea for a
really beautiful inspiring goal,people really are skeptical, but
they very quickly when theyrealize you're serious, they
very quickly get excited aboutit and then they start adding to
(01:01:53):
it. That's the point where youreally know it's taken hold
because others are arecontributing to it.
Crystal Page (01:01:59):
You're right. Because as soon as we announced,
the grant that was being made todowntown partnership for this
development, I received severalcalls from theater folks who
were like, we are so excitedthat you care about the space
and the possibility ofprotecting the civic theater.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:15):
Yeah.
Crystal Page (01:02:15):
You know? And it just reminded me how much these
locations mean to people theirown memories Right. Their own
experience of the culturelocally.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:23):
Yeah. And and I think that, by the way, is a
wonderful place to end becausethe role of art and culture in a
city, the importance of itcannot be overstated, and I just
so appreciate that one of thethemes that is coming up over
and over again in ourconversations with people is the
(01:02:44):
importance of having artdowntown and how much they
appreciate and value the CivicTheatre and how much they
appreciate the role of art intheir city, it's exciting and I
think we're we're reallyembarked on an exciting time in
San Diego, and I appreciateOmar's helping us tee up the
(01:03:04):
conversation.
Crystal Page (01:03:05):
Me too. Here's to the future of our city.
Grant Oliphant (01:03:07):
Alright. Thanks so much.
Crystal Page (01:03:09):
Thank you.
Grant Oliphant (01:03:13):
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Hello, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:11):
Hi, Crystal. How are you doing?
Crystal Page (00:13):
I'm good. How are you?
Grant Oliphant (00:14):
I'm great. I'm really excited about this
conversation today because we'regonna be talking with somebody
who I've known for a lot ofyears and had the privilege to
work with for a lot of thoseyears, Omar Blaik.
Crystal Page (00:26):
I am thrilled because I met Omar for a few
minutes, and he told me you canactually design a city to ensure
that it smells nice and it feelsengaging. I'm sold.
Grant Oliphant (00:37):
Yeah. And that sounds trivial, and it's huge.
You know, one of the things thatI strikes me about Omar, and it
really comes out in thisinterview that we're about to
have, is, he is an award winningthinker about the design of
urban spaces for a very goodreason, and it's because he's
(00:59):
done the work of really thinkingabout what it takes for a city
to design spaces that engagepeople and that are really open
to and for everyone.
Crystal Page (01:11):
And I'm really interested. I read his bio, and
I see that he's originally fromCairo. Yeah. So the idea of
having someone who's been bothinside and outside in the
region, in the community, in thecountry, I think it just brings
a unique perspective. So I hopeyou all address that in your
conversation.
Grant Oliphant (01:28):
Yeah. Well, we will. And part of part of what
he brings to, his work, and Ithink it's really important is
being an immigrant and havinggrown up in an international
city like Cairo, which is whichis where he spent his youth, and
having a sense for what theolder cities do that works and
(01:55):
and, makes for human interactionthat is organic and exciting and
lively and dynamic, all thestuff that we're that we want
here in San Diego. So I thinkthis is an exciting interview,
and and one that will help usshed light on the conversation
we're having in this town, abouta couple of things. 1, of
(02:17):
course, is the project thatwe've engaged Omar to work on
through, our colleagues andfriends at the San Diego
Downtown Partnership, and thatis the focus on what is called
the Civic Center.
The area, the 6 block areaaround city hall, that the city
of San Diego has this uniqueopportunity to use as a showcase
(02:40):
for what the future of downtownsought to be about. So that's one
thing that we're gonna explore.But more broadly, San Diego, of
course, is looking at this wholequestion of what we want the
future of the city to be, andhow we can accommodate everybody
who wants to be here, how we candesign spaces that actually meet
(03:00):
the needs of everybody who'shere, and we're gonna get into
all of that in thisconversation.
Crystal Page (03:06):
Well, I look forward to hearing about the
future of San Diego.
Grant Oliphant (03:08):
Let's dive in.
Crystal Page (03:09):
Let's do it.
Grant Oliphant (03:13):
Alright, Omar. It is so good to have you here.
Omar Blaik (03:16):
It's terrific to be invited to speak with you.
Grant Oliphant (03:19):
Well, you and I have known each other for a long
time, and and we really got toknow each other because we
worked on the ground together intrying to help Pittsburgh get a
very important civic site offthe ground and back into
productive use. But I wannastart here in San Diego, where
(03:41):
you are now working with us atPrebys and with the city and
with the downtown partnership inSan Diego to figure out how to
revitalize and rejuvenate andreimagine a core downtown site
around city hall. And the reasonthis feels important aside from
(04:04):
the fact that it's a reallyimportant site in San Diego is
that every city in America istrying to figure out what to do
with its downtowns right now andsort of rethinking what the
possibilities are. And that'sprecisely the work that you do
is work with communities tofigure out how to use theirs
(04:24):
their space and their place tomake something distinctive that
works for the community. So canwe just talk for a minute about
what attracted you to thisopportunity in San Diego and why
you found it important to sayyes to.
Omar Blaik (04:41):
Other than you?
Grant Oliphant (04:42):
Well, you know, you can you can pay tribute that
way later, but yes.
Omar Blaik (04:47):
I mean, I mean, it's a great opportunity. It's
exactly what you said, Grant. Itsits at the intersection of
every challenge, challenges thatother cities are dealing with.
And, my sense is that, there issomething very unique here, in
(05:08):
San Diego. You guys, you know,you are an amazing city, but
still downtown is is, lacking.
And, how to solve that in a anoverall environment that is not
distressed. The overallenvironment of San Diego is is,
you know, strong, and climate isgood. Demographics are good,
(05:33):
whereas most of the cities weare dealing with are actually
shrinking cities and difficultcities in the Rust Belt and the
like. So this is an opportunitywhere you are trying to solve a
an interesting problem in adifferent type of, or different
kind of space. So I always liketo take challenges that I
haven't, you know, solved in thepast to kind of see how our
(05:56):
thinking can change over timeand be more impactful.
Grant Oliphant (06:01):
It is, I think, easy for people taking a
superficial look at a projectlike the Civic Center in
Downtown San Diego, or theHazelwood Green project that you
helped us with in Pittsburgh, orthe work that you've done in
Downtown Detroit, or the workthat you did originally back in
(06:22):
Philadelphia that really gotyour career in this area
started. It's easy for people tolook at that and say well you
know design is a nice luxury,but what we have to worry about
is and then you'll get a list.And the list in San Diego might
start, understandably withhomelessness and housing. The
(06:45):
list in Pittsburgh started witheconomic development. The list
in Philadelphia, I believe,started with connection with
community.
You look at this through a verybroad lens, this question of how
the design of spaces and placesactually helps a community
achieve its goals. Why is itimportant?
Omar Blaik (07:07):
It's actually fundamental to the way we live
and the way we interact witheach other. As we were walking
here, I told you I feel we, as aas a country, may have a
deficiency in empathy. And thereason why is that we actually
live in places that are notinviting us to interact and to
(07:30):
be together, but in fact, to beseparated. We are separated by
income, by type, by age, byrace.
And design brings peopletogether. The right the the
right way to actually think ofcities and city design. And, you
know, I find it fascinating thatwe, as Americans, we go to
(07:52):
Europe and to the Middle Eastand to elsewhere, and we are
fascinated by cities, fascinatedby you can sit and you can watch
people walk around, and you canwatch grand parents playing with
their grandchildren. Yeah. Butthat's because, in fact, these
are cities that are designed foreverybody, not designed for a
(08:14):
particular use and a particular,demographic.
And we tend here to think, youknow, back in the days when
cities, had the initial struggleafter the the migration out, and
the development of suburbs,well, we will bring stadiums in.
We will bring casinos in. Thenwe will bring businesses in. And
(08:38):
my sense is that you look at, atcities, from Cairo to Shanghai
to London and Paris, these werenot cities that were built 50
years ago. These are cities thatare not struggling with
identity. These are cities, nomatter what the economic
downturn, how bad it is, or thesocial, stress in a society,
(09:02):
nobody asks the question, whatis the role of London anymore?
Or what's the role of Parisanymore? Or what's the role of
Cairo? These are cities that arethriving in in the highs and in
the lows.
Here, when we get a bad downturnof economy, suddenly downtowns
do not have a meaning. Why?Because we have had focused on
(09:24):
one use around downtowns. And wereally need to bring back the
idea that downtowns are really amicrocosm of the community that
we all live in.
It has everybody and not justone type of use.
Grant Oliphant (09:37):
That's, that is a hugely powerful and beautiful
answer, and I wanna hold thatthought for a moment while we
understand a little bit abouthow you got there. And you
mentioned this internationalperspective that you bring to
the work, in part, but only inparts because you are yourself
an immigrant. You were born toLebanese parents and raised in
(10:02):
Cairo. You have you have seenthe world through other places'
eyes, and I'm just curious howthat has affected your thinking
about this work that you're nowreally concentrating on here and
elsewhere around the US.
Omar Blaik (10:18):
I would say affected it in a major way. I, as I see
things as an outsider, so then Idon't, I don't accept the status
quo as, as acceptable. I ask thequestion. I tell you a quick
story.
I came, took my job at Penn, asthe senior vice president for
(10:41):
facilities and real estate. Andthe first thing I realized is
that, they were celebrating achemistry professor winning the
Nobel Prize with a banner thatcrosses crossed Walnut Street.
And I went to- I'm trying toask, how did we
Grant Oliphant (10:59):
And just to anchor people, this is the
University of Pennsylvanialocated in Philadelphia.
Omar Blaik (11:04):
Yes. Located in Philadelphia. And I said, how
are we why are we celebrating aNobel Prize, winner with a
banner that can go for a Targetor a Walmart? Shouldn't we have
a design sensibility to actuallybe a little bit more,
sophisticated in our response tocelebrating a professor like
(11:25):
that?
This is just an example of how Ijust did not accept, the status
quo. I remember I attended thefirst, graduation ceremony at
Penn. And, again, totally lackeddesign. People are going into
different places, dark and noTV. And again, I said, shouldn't
(11:45):
we hire an architect andactually think of this as a
theatrical, experience thatshould, should be well designed.
We actually ended up winning anaward, a design award for, the
graduation ceremony. But all ofthat to say that being
foreigner, having seen citieselsewhere, I come to question,
(12:09):
so why do we do it this way, andwhy do we act in that way? And I
constantly reminded myself thatAmerica is a young country. We
have lived in cities for a few100 years. You know, when you
compare other cultures and otherplaces, they have been living in
cities for 1000s of years.
Grant Oliphant (12:29):
Right. Right.
Omar Blaik (12:29):
And the idea of actually how to navigate the
city and how to enjoy the cityeven though it is crowded and it
could be noisy and all of therest. But many cultures have
figured out a way to actuallymitigate all of that and live a
very rich rich life. Here, weare still young, and we are
(12:51):
getting more sophisticatedaround how we live in cities,
but, it requires somebody toactually push back on the
convention.
Grant Oliphant (13:03):
Yeah. Well, I think one of the conventions
that you pushed back on at theUniversity of Pennsylvania, and
you were working there under aniconic president, Judith Roden,
who went on to head the PewTrusts.
Omar Blaik (13:16):
The Rockefeller Trust.
Grant Oliphant (13:17):
I mean, Rockefeller. Yeah. Sorry. And an
extraordinary leader, and youbrought an extraordinary
perspective, but one of the waysin which you became known on the
national scene was working withher to open up the university to
the community. I think up untilthat point, the university was
notorious for building wallsbetween itself and the
(13:39):
surrounding community, and ifyou looked at the mindset of
most people and universities andinstitutions in community
settings, they were reallytrying to protect themselves
from communities as opposed torelate with communities.
What gave you and her the ideato to change in this way?
(14:03):
Because it was a pretty boldidea at the time. In some ways,
it remains a bold idea thatconnectivity is the thing that
makes a city go.
Omar Blaik (14:10):
I credit Judy, and and John Fry with the majority
of how bold the idea was. I feelthat I was lucky enough to
actually be there as aninstrument, truly translating
their vision into reality on theground. Judy had the draw of the
luck to have been born in WestPhiladelphia and has experienced
(14:33):
West Philadelphia before WestPhiladelphia and Penn were
detached. And so she came as apresident saying, you know, this
is a very insular campus. Thisis not what we what we
experienced when we were livinghere and when she went as a
student, at the University ofPennsylvania.
And hence started a very bigvision. I then became the
(14:57):
architect of how to open thatstreet, how to open the you
know, I took every building,campus building, and put the
main door on the on the publicside rather than the loading
dock. I kind of tweaked withevery building to really open up
the campus, and make it a a partof the fabric of the city. One
(15:17):
of the things that were veryminor in what I did, but I think
it was symbolic, is that Iforced the mail department to
actually, assign, a wall youknow, street addresses to all of
our buildings because the Penncampus sat on an urban grid.
Grant Oliphant (15:35):
Right.
Omar Blaik (15:35):
And, your mail would come to the administration
building, to college hall. No.Each each of these buildings
actually has a street address.Right. And the idea was I wanted
the Penn faculty and staff toconstantly be reminded that they
are part of the city.
Grant Oliphant (15:53):
Yeah. And even so even a small what seems like
a small thing like that can behighly symbolic.
Omar Blaik (15:58):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Grant Oliphant (16:00):
So you helped transform the relationship of
the university to the community,and it became, for those of us
who followed design principles,with respect to urban urban's,
environments and how we thoughtabout cities, it became one of
the, I think, best examples inthe country for a different type
(16:23):
of orientation towards city andcommunity. And from there, it
gave you an idea to start yourown business called U3 Advisors,
which is not just an urbandesign firm. How- what was your
idea with U3, and how would yousay it's evolved?
Omar Blaik (16:42):
So it it has evolved quite a bit because we went
through 2 recessions during, thepast 17 years.
Grant Oliphant: YOu have to stay alive. Right. (16:48):
undefined
Omar Blaik (16:49):
17 years, I had to stay alive, in some, periods of
time. I actually, in many ways,didn't want to start a
consulting firm that doesanalysis, issue reports, and
moves on.
I felt that what made itdifferent at Penn was the impact
(17:10):
we finally were able to achievewas the perseverance of actually
turning the ideas into action.And you cannot do that in
regular consulting work. So Ikept trying to figure out how do
you actually get paid, and inthe same time, you stay the
course to implement. And trytrials and errors for a year
(17:35):
before, before I was called uponby David Egner of Hudson Webber
and Rip Rapson of, of Kresge whocame to visit Penn, and they
called me to meet with them.
We met in a Starbucks, beforethey departed Philadelphia to
say, would you be interested incoming to Detroit? And it, in
(17:59):
many ways, I said this is thisis a huge challenge Mhmm. But in
the same time, a gift becausemany people try to dismiss what
happened at Penn being,Philadelphia is the 5th largest
city. Mhmm.
And Penn is one of the most,well endowed private
institutions. So you throw moneyat it and somehow you solve the
(18:21):
problem. Going to Detroit, youare not in the largest in the-
5th largest city. It's ashrinking city. The mayor was, I
believe, at that point in 2008,was in prison.
Grant Oliphant (18:33):
Wildly different situation.
Omar Blaik (18:35):
Yes. The auto industry was totally in
shambles. And for and then weare working with public
institutions, the, you know,Wayne State, and, Detroit
Medical Center. It's not anymorethe private elite. So I said if
we can do it in Detroit, and ifwe can make an impact, we can
really make an impact everywhereelse.
(18:56):
So we we tried in Detroit, andwe started with our vision of
how to rethink the enterprise ofuniversities and hospitals to
impact their local community.And the more and we had a simple
idea. The more the universitymeans something to the community
and the community meanssomething to the university, the
more their natural bond thatwill not really be separated.
(19:20):
And, we were able to actually,through the work of Kresge
Foundation and Hudson Webber, tostay the course and really turn
around midtown, was amazing. Andwe continue to actually work in
Detroit 16 years later.
And that almost put us on thenational, radar screen because,
(19:40):
again, Penn was dismissed as youthrow money at it, you can you
can make it work. And fromthere, went to Maryland and, and
Newark and, eventually showed upat Pittsburgh.
Grant Oliphant (19:53):
Right. Which I used to think of as the capstone
of your career.
Omar Blaik (19:56):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (19:56):
Now I think San Diego is that.
You know, I think, what I what Ihear in that brief history is
the emphasis you place onconnecting institutions with
community and with place andrestoring connectivity. What it
brings up for me is that so muchof urban design, at least in the
(20:19):
20th century, was aboutsegregating and disconnecting.
And lots of communities stilllive with the psychological and
geographical and economic scarsof that where poor communities
were separated, traditionallyBlack communities were
separated, you know, the wholehistory of Robert Moses' highway
(20:44):
network, and the way in which itseparated people into different
communities and geographies, andalso from nature in some
extraordinary ways. So we willhave we will have to understand
and forgive many people who hearthat you're from urban planning
(21:04):
and are there to help for beinga little suspicious. So How do
you help people see that whatyou're really doing is something
different?
Omar Blaik (21:13):
So I'll tell you a Penn story, that, gives you a
sense of how I have approachedthings, for the past 16 years.
So at Penn, we were trying to,revitalize a commercial corridor
that really was, filled with theworst uses that you can possibly
(21:34):
think of at the doorsteps of theinstitution on fortieth Street.
And I I asked why don't weactually have a community hall
meeting and invite neighbors andbusinesses and just ask the
question. Everybody was verytimid. You are going without a
plan.
I said, yeah. I mean, eventuallyI have trust that everybody
wants the same thing. You know,they want clean and safe and
(21:56):
thriving commercial corridor andthe like. So we attended the
meeting and about 100 peopleshowed up. And I introduced
myself and, you know, where wesaid, Penn is not going to force
anything on anybody, but we wantto know what you have, what you
are aspiring for.
An African American woman, youknow, asked to speak, she
(22:18):
probably was in her eighties.And she then asked me a question
that froze me. She said, misterBlaik, is Penn moving us again?
And I had to think about why. Imean, I have not proposed
anything, like that.
Turned out that I don't know howmuch you know the history of
(22:38):
urban renewal around, WestPhiladelphia. Black Bottom was a
working class, neighborhood onthe northern edge of the Penn
campus. Through urban renewal,people were moved, out by force,
and compensated, minimally. Andshe eventually moved to a,
(23:01):
senior housing that sits on 40thStreet. So she was anxious that
40 years later, she was going tobe moved again because Penn is
planning something.
Grant Oliphant (23:10):
And it's still alive in her memory. Of course.
Omar Blaik (23:12):
Still alive. And I think I have aged about 10 years
in that in that moment. But itgives me a it gave me a light
bulb that said, cannot doanything without the people that
surround you. Cannot forceanybody to do anything.
At the end of the day, people byand large actually want almost
the same thing. So if you bemore if you lead with
(23:36):
vulnerability and open up, it'snot a point of weakness. It's
actually going to make youstronger. And our and that
approach we apply everywhere ifan institution cannot succeed on
its own. A city cannot succeedby separating different
communities.
Every everybody needs toactually be part of what gets
(23:58):
created and have a sense ofownership of it. And I think
that's the that's maybe the keymoment for me.
Grant Oliphant (24:05):
So as you look at this project in San Diego,
how do we avoid making that samemistake?
Omar Blaik (24:13):
We we need to make the civic center meaningful to
everybody, every community inSan Diego, and not to a
particular use or a particulartype. And that requires a lot of
engagement to actually translatewhat that meaning means. And, in
in many ways, you we cannot makethe same mistake again and
(24:38):
replace one use with anothersingle use.
Grant Oliphant (24:41):
Right.
Omar Blaik (24:41):
And, my my sense is that similar to many other
downtowns that are struggling,we need to really bring rather
than one large type of uses. Weneed to bring in smaller, more
nimble, but diverse set of uses.In many ways, I always think,
(25:03):
you know, great cities are notmade of one great project, are
made of many small greatprojects. And size matters,
scale matter. And the idea isthat if you can create a a
diversity of uses that areconnected to the community, at
the larger community in SanDiego, then the place will mean
(25:25):
something.
Grant Oliphant (25:26):
So let's let's deepen the conversation about
the opportunity in San Diego,but sort of through the lens of
how you do this well regardlessof where you are. What you're
talking about here is engagingthe community in an open and
authentic process, recognizingthat the constituents for this
(25:47):
part of a city are broad. Youknow? They're
Omar Blaik (25:50):
Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant (25:50):
They're and extensive. I love your notion of
thinking about multiple uses andnot one single great heroic
project. Mhmm. I think that'simportant. When I look at this
section of downtown, it sort of,for me, embodies a lot of the
classic approaches of 50 yearsago, 60 years ago to how you how
(26:12):
you rejuvenated downtown.
Mhmm. So they disconnected theurban grid, created a concrete
plaza in the middle of And
Omar Blaik (26:23):
elevated one.
Grant Oliphant (26:24):
And elevated it, so took it away from the street.
And the notion at the time I'vegone back and read the the
visioning documents and thereporting on it. The notion at
the time was this would be aniconic symbol of what downtown
was. What everybody forgot wasit would also divorce that space
from the streets. It woulddisconnect that space from the
(26:48):
grid that surrounded it.
Like so many other similarprojects over time, you saw a
degradation in use, an erosionof of, population around it, and
ultimately to where we are. Oh,and making the iconic feature a
parking lot. Yep. So no. Whichis which is a mistake that's
(27:10):
played out in so manycommunities.
But how how, are you thinkingabout undoing those mistakes, or
is that the approach you take asyou think as you're helping a
community think through a
Omar Blaik (27:24):
project? So listening and actually better
understanding the history ofboth the place and the people,
as it interacts in that place isis is number 1. The second part
is to actually look at where arethe blocks that exist physically
that disconnect people from theactivity that's happening
(27:46):
inside. City hall is not, verydifferent than many universities
and hospitals. The way they aredesigned, there is a vocabulary
of separation and segregation.
You elevate, you create someplatforms, you actually put the
loading docks on the mainstreet, and by doing that, you
are, bottling all of the energyinside the the space. And, a
(28:11):
good design really emanates thatenergy outside. And in emanating
it outside, you are attractingauthentic users coming in, and
you create that energy that weare all looking for. So, the one
of the main important things isto actually remove those
disconnections and reconnect.Similar to what, what, you know,
(28:32):
the Penn campus and andreconnecting it to the grid, we
need to connect the site back tothe grid. How and where exactly
and what opportunities itprovides for development, all of
that needs to be studied. But itis obvious that the site has
been designed to actuallyseparate you from the rest of
the city. And the outcome todaycould have been predicted long
(28:55):
time ago because of the way itwas designed.
Grant Oliphant (28:58):
And yet we did that in community upon community
upon community because it wasthe orthodoxy of the time. Yep.
But you're right. If if we hadthought through the power of
connectivity, we wouldn't havedone that.
Omar Blaik (29:09):
Exactly.
Grant Oliphant (29:10):
You know, I'm I'm going to say something, and
I'll say it that maybe will getme in trouble, but I've said it
in other places, so I I I thinkI just have to be honest about
it. I came here from a town thatstruggled with the idea of
thinking in in in greatnessterms when thinking about
(29:33):
design, because it had beenthrough a the city had been
through a near death experience.I'm talking about Pittsburgh
now,
and for the longest time, therewas a mindset of we have to take
what we can get. We have to bewilling to- and yet there was a
repeated willingness over timeto rise above that. What the
(29:55):
city was in constant tensionover was this instinct to dumb
things down and not reallyaspire versus this willingness
to say, you know, we're gonnatry and to do great things as a
result. It's really how theentire waterfront of the city
(30:15):
got reinvented.
It was where the 2 renaissanceof the city came from.
Interestingly for me in SanDiego, which is a wildly
different economic place whereland has value and there's
momentum and energy, there'sstill the same human struggle
(30:35):
between thinking that we have totake what we can get because a
project may not fit in ourpsychology of where greatness
can happen, and nonethelesswanting to do it. And what I
found as we've taken on thecivic center project is there's
a thirst in this town for bigideas
Omar Blaik (30:54):
Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant (30:55):
And there's a fear about whether we can
actually do them. How have youseen that play out in other
communities, and how are youseeing it play out here?
Omar Blaik (31:04):
It, I actually think it plays out almost in every, in
every city where there is asense that we are not good
enough to actually do x or y.And, it requires leadership. I
would say there are so manysimilarities between San Diego
(31:24):
and Philadelphia. Philadelphiafor, the longest time, kind of
felt unseen between beingbetween New York and Washington,
DC. We, you know, we are noteven on the main highway between
the 2, the 2 big cities, centerof government and center of
finance.
And Philadelphia for decades,saw itself as a smaller,
(31:51):
provincial type town. And youlook at, Philadelphia today,
it's a in a very differentplace. It's, the center of life
science, and, eds and meds areare very, prominent. And it's
one of the most livable cities,has the best food scene in, in,
the country, and has probablysome of the most diverse,
(32:15):
housing stocks and housingtypologies that allows to
accommodate the younger familiesand the bachelors and the older
folks. And it's a city that hastransit, life.
And my sense is that San Diegohas some of those complexities
that, you know, that we areovershadowed by San Francisco
and LA. But San Diego hasamazing assets going for it.
(32:40):
And, and it's not just theclimate, and it's not just the,
you know, the lifestyle. Youknow, you are next to a border
that has the highest trade,traffic in, I believe, in the
world, has amazing interchangeof cultures between Mexico and
here. You are sitting, on thedoorsteps of amazing life
(33:01):
science, you know, powerhouse inUCSD.
And all of that should actuallygive you the the confidence that
downtown and the heart ofdowntown ought to really reflect
the greatness of San Diego. Andthat's, I think, what we are
(33:22):
hoping to achieve.
Grant Oliphant (33:24):
Yeah. So when you think about this
opportunity, and I love thatanswer because I believe the
same thing myself, but when youthink about the the opportunity
that is represented by the CivicCenter and the downtown project,
what do you want San Diegans tobelieve about it? And how would
you talk about it in othercommunities around the country
(33:44):
that you how would you describethis as an opportunity for us?
Omar Blaik (33:49):
I think that you can actually redefine what downtowns
are, and and that can be a greatservice to many other cities
across, the country that arereaching, you know, 40%
vacancies in their commercials,office space and, major issues
of homelessness and blight, inthe core of their cities. So
(34:14):
one, one, I think you have theopportunity to really redefine
downtowns. And, and that's whatattracted me to this opportunity
and with the kindness of youcalling me asking, would I be
interested? And, of course Isaid yes. I think the the the
(34:35):
other thing that, that we needto be thinking about is saying
that a great mentor of mine and,somebody I I really, admire is
Laurie Olin, the famous,landscape architect who, one
time told me, you know, in in,Europe, cities build parks for
(35:00):
the community around the parks.
And then everybody from the restof the world come to visit those
parks.
Grant Oliphant (35:07):
Parks. Mhmm.
Omar Blaik (35:08):
And then in America, we build parks for tourists. And
nobody shows up. And I think inmany ways, that's what we want
to do here in downtown. Weactually want to build downtown
for us. Let's stop thinking weare building downtown core for
the for the convention crowd orfor the sports crowd or for the
(35:33):
tourists that are comingthrough. No. We want to build
downtown for us. And when webuild downtown for us and it is
beaming with the authenticity ofthe community, we will be an
amazing destination.
And I think that's how you flipit.
Grant Oliphant (35:48):
I just love that inversion of the usual or you
know, the the usual way ofthinking about it is define
greatness based on what the restof the world will wanna come and
see. You're defining it based onwhat we will want to enjoy.
Omar Blaik (36:00):
Yeah. What we have and what we want.
Grant Oliphant (36:02):
So, in a way that that is the answer to the
question I was about to ask you,but I still wanna ask you
because I think there may bemore there. You know, I wanna
start by acknowledging the roleof the mayor, Todd Gloria, and
of the city in being willing totake on this broader view
(36:22):
because the easiest thing forthem to do as in so many other
places would have been to justgo out and sell a bunch of
parcels and call it a a day. Itis harder to sign up for the
long term change project, thatwe that we're imagining here. So
I'm grateful for that.
(36:43):
And we don't wanna get ahead ofthat process, but are you
already beginning to seeprinciples coming out of the
conversations that you're havingwith community and leaders in
the community, that you thinkare going to be important for
this project going forward?
Omar Blaik (37:01):
I believe so. I actually think what I shared is
not something that we just areadvocating, but, actually what
we are listening and hearingfrom, many different
constituencies. And that, Ithink, is is very much, a sense
of, oh, I think we are on on theright path. I believe the
(37:25):
principles the main principlesin my mind are, let's make the
site reconnected back to thecity.
Let's come up with multipleuses, that, that have a public
meaning, not multiple uses wherewe are just building
condominiums and officebuildings. And, you know, it's
(37:46):
almost like everything that getsbuilt there needs to have a
public purpose, whether it,whether the perimeter of that
building is engaging thecommunity, whether the uses
inside are actually meaningful.And then you you want them to be
meaningful to differentconstituencies, so then you can
create the interaction betweenthe diversity of who we are. So
(38:09):
the the disconnection, you know,dealing with the disconnection,
picking up the right uses, andthen design. At the end of the
day, redesigning the publicrealm is going to be
fundamentally important.
And I think you then go out andengage the private sector with
an idea in mind rather than goout and engage the private
(38:31):
sector to just maximize, youknow, income. And I think those
are 2 very different,approaches.
Grant Oliphant (38:37):
Yeah. In so many projects, what you hear though
is if you add too much burdenbefore you go out to the private
sector, the private sector isn'tgoing to take on the project
because it will be too expensiveor too hard or too burdensome.
Why doesn't it scare you? Andyou've done this over and over
again, and you've seen theopposite happen. Why doesn't it
(39:00):
scare you, and why doesn't itscare developers in those cases?
Omar Blaik (39:04):
Because I've seen it many times before. If you have a
vision and you have leadership,you actually find the resources.
I actually there is, a jokewithin the office that I came up
with a formula that's called requals v plus l.
Grant Oliphant (39:18):
R equals v plus l.
Omar Blaik (39:20):
Yes. And if you have the vision and the leadership,
resources are going to show up.Mhmm. And, I believe that this
is the the city needs to leadwith ideas. And the ideas bring
resources with them.
If the city lacks the ideas,then we are left to the private
sector funding. And then as yousaid, it's a formula based, and
(39:43):
there is, you need the projectneeds to pencil out at the end
of the day. So but if you moveforward with an idea, other
resources actually can, can besurfaced.
Grant Oliphant (39:54):
So this is a, both a a big site and a small
site at the same time. It's bigin the sense that it's multiple
city blocks in the heart ofdowntown. It's small because the
footprint of that is smallcompared to a lot of other
scales of projects. And in theconversations that I've been
(40:15):
present present for, I think thefeedback from the community has
been that we want to see housingon the site. We wanna see public
spaces and amenities and parkson the site.
We wanna see art, and we wannasee culture on the site. We want
academic uses woven into it, andwe want to meet the public
(40:39):
infrastructure needs that exist.The need for the city to have a
new administration buildingsomewhere connected to this
project. So a lot ofexpectations. Is it possible for
a project like this to meet allof those expectations?
Omar Blaik (40:56):
In the wider sense, yes. But in the specific on the
footprint of the site probablyno, because it's a small a
smaller site. And the idea isthat you need to actually keep
enough of the uses that willtransform the identity of that,
precinct. And then hope that theother uses will start to get,
(41:18):
sprinkled around, but not on thesite.
Because the site is tight toactually have all of these, uses
that we listen to and you heardas well. To be on the site. So I
think, it is so important todecide what comes first because
a project, a particular use, canin fact cascade other type of
(41:41):
uses that are mentioned here allaround us, and there is other
uses that in fact will totallybottle up the energy again on
the site, and we don't want todo that.
Grant Oliphant (41:53):
Yeah. I really appreciate you're saying that
because by restoringconnectivity to the site, you
can think more expansively aboutthe site than just the footprint
of the site. Let's talk a littlebit about how this is going to
work so people understand whatit is that the the city has
taken on. The city has has,through the Downtown
(42:15):
Partnership, agreed to work withyou to figure out how to get to
a a vision that can then guidea... can then guide what? Why
don't you describe what it isthat's going to guide?
Omar Blaik (42:30):
So if we are in a normal economic situation, If we
are in a normal economic,situation, and we believe that
the vision is well defined thatwhat we would
approach, the client, the cityhere and and the downtown
partnership, to actually go outto the prior to the market, with
the vision, with the requirementof what are the public uses that
(42:52):
we want to see on the site, andthen engage the private sector
in either a design competitionor a set of, requests for
interest as well as a requestfor proposals, eventually, and
then you pick from from that.The the trick we we are
struggling with is that theeconomics, conditions for
(43:15):
development today are not ideal.So you want to be going out to
the market at the right time. Sowe think there is quite a bit of
work that can be, preparing thesite, not only the vision and
socializing the vision with allof the approval entities, but
also getting the mechanism forhow a development on a site like
(43:37):
that can in fact take place.
Because not necessarilyeverything has to be done by the
city. You can actually, have,have other, NGOs involved in in
guiding, or providing thatstewardship. But, we can provide
a lot of that work waiting forthe market to actually be ready
(43:59):
for an engagement on an RFPprocess. So we that's where we
are leaning towards, getting thevision clarified and defined and
and socialized, and then gettingthe mechanism of execution
approved. And then you go out tothe market when the market is
ready.
Grant Oliphant (44:19):
And the RFP is a request for proposals where you
actually look for people who arewilling to sign up for some
version of this vision.
Omar Blaik (44:26):
And we believe that this is an RFP that we want to
team developers with plannersand architects so that actually
there is some sort of acompetition. That because, you
know, we may get ideas that havenot been, discussed before. So
we and we want to elevate theelement of design. So we want to
(44:50):
pick teams, not just thedeveloper.
Grant Oliphant (44:53):
Oh, that's exciting. So teams who will
represent both the capacity todeliver the project, but also
the capacity to deliver on thevision.
Omar Blaik (45:03):
Exactly. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant (45:04):
Interesting. That's exciting. So given that
community engagement is socentral to how you're
approaching this, I think whereI wanna end this is to come back
to that, that it's one of thefirst principles you stated in
this conversation, theimportance of talking with
community in an authentic way.And I would say what you've been
(45:26):
doing these last many months isnothing but talking with various
stakeholders from leaders oflarge institutions to design
organizations and interestedstakeholders who believe that
they have some kind of stake inwhat happens with downtown. Does
that process abruptly end whenyou go into the RFP process, or
(45:52):
does it continue somehow?
Omar Blaik (45:54):
So I believe the engagement, are to be an ongoing
process. So the the content ofthe engagement reflects the
stage that you are in. In an RFPprocess, the engagement has to
continue as it relates toreviewing the proposals, as it,
as it relates to selecting thedeveloper. My sense is that even
(46:18):
when a developer gets selected,there needs to be a process
where the developer now isengaging with, different
stakeholders. So I would,advocate that this is a process
that needs to to continue to bein place rather than just for a
particular assignment.
Grant Oliphant (46:37):
Well, Omar, unfortunately, our time has run
out, but I have to say, it is ajoy to get to work with you
again on a project like this.And I I believe what you said,
which is that San Diego has ahuge opportunity here, not only
to deliver on a great projectfor itself, but to do so in a
(46:58):
way that other communities willwanna pay attention to and learn
from, and, you know, may we besuccessful in
Omar Blaik (47:06):
May we be successful. Well, the honors are
are mine, and the privilege ismine, Grant to have been,
contacted by you and the PrebysFoundation. And, you know, met
when we met with the mayor,amazing amazing leadership that
we have here. I really think wehave a great opportunity, to to
succeed.
Grant Oliphant (47:25):
Alright. From your lips to God's ears, we'll
leave it at that. Omar Blaik,thank you so much.
Omar Blaik (47:30):
Thank you. Thank you so much, Grant.
Crystal Page (47:36):
That was such an eclectic conversation. I loved
it.
Grant Oliphant (47:39):
Eclectic might be the perfect word for it. If
you think about it, cities areeclectic. Right? They're they're
meeting places for peoplebutting up against each other
who may not necessarilyorganically always end up in the
same spot. But, you know, welive in this in this space, we
work in this space, we havepeople visiting in this space,
(48:02):
go to school, and all of thathas to be accommodated by the
same space.
And I just loved talking to Omarabout what it looks like for a
city to make all of that work.
Crystal Page (48:16):
Yes. And I hadn't thought about how the current
design may or may not feelwelcoming. Right? The way the
that city hall has these stepsup. It kinda separates it from
the rest of the street.
And now that I think about it, Iwas like, oh, yeah. It doesn't
have a flow that makes me wannawalk into it and engage and be
curious. And so, I reallyappreciated his thoughts and his
(48:39):
approach on, what is friendlyand welcoming design in 2024.
Grant Oliphant (48:44):
Yeah. Well, your your use of the word flow
actually grabs me because Iactually think that's the secret
here. You know, there was aperiod in American architecture
and design, and urban thinkingthat was all about breaking up
spaces, and I think our cityhall complex, the Civic Center,
(49:09):
in some ways embodies that. It'syeah the steps that create a
discontinuity with the street,the breaking up of the street
grid so that traffic didn't flowthrough anymore, really creating
ramps that divide the sidewalkfrom the experience that's
happening at the center,creating blank walls so
(49:32):
pedestrians are disconnectedfrom the space. It ends up being
disconnected all the way around.
And I remember looking at, atphotographs and drawings of the
space when it was beingconceived and being sold to the
public you know, 60 years ago.And, it really looks beautiful
(49:56):
in the drawings, and and it'sactually maybe one of the
warnings about how we thinkabout spaces. What people really
want, and I think Omar drewattention to this, is they want
flow. You know, they want to beable to move from one space to
the other. They wanna be able tosee where they're going.
They wanna be able to walk intoan area and feel like it's
(50:19):
welcoming regardless of who theyare. And I just I really
appreciated Omar's perspectiveon that.
Crystal Page (50:26):
Yeah. Now that you're saying that, I'm
imagining, like, where we are inLittle Italy. Right? You can see
down the road when there's thefarmer's market, or you see down
to the water. And so I thinkit's a huge opportunity for San
Diego, assuming, you know, themayor and the council members
and everyone likes, whateverDowntown Partnership and U3
develops.
(50:47):
I think there's such anopportunity there to make every
make that 6th parcel feel likedowntown the rest of downtown
does. Right? Like Comic Con.You're turning corners. You're
seeing the wraps from thisyear's 2024 Comic Con, and it's
exciting and engaging, and Ihope we continue with that
spirit.
Grant Oliphant (51:07):
Yeah. Well, I think we will. You know, first
of all, I it says a lot aboutSan Diego and the mayor that,
the city has been willing toembark on this process. And just
ask the question, what isdowntown for? How can we take
these 6 blocks and turn theminto more than the sum of their
(51:28):
proverbial parts, and and reallytry and make it part of the
urban fabric again, and make itadd to San Diego.
You know, if you think aboutwhat people love here, and I've
asked that question of so manyfolks in my early time here in
in the city, the the answers areall over the lot. Some people
(51:49):
like the ocean, and some peoplelike the desert, and some but
what they regardless of whatwhat attributes they point to,
they all love the opportunitythat the city affords to connect
with all of those spaces andwith and to connect in an easy
way with opportunities for art,for culture, for nature, for
(52:12):
beauty, for the things that theyappreciate. And, I think I think
this package of land can be areal opportunity for San Diego
to help the rest of the countryanswer a question that we're all
everybody's grappling with,which is what's the next thing
we can do to make cities evenbetter and more lively, and to
(52:34):
keep downtowns an important partof the American fabric the way
that they have been. You know,and what I would also point out
is downtowns go through ups anddowns always. There are ebbs and
flows to what how people engagewith downtowns, and partly it's
because of changing tastes,partly it's because of lessons
(52:56):
that we needed to learn abouthow to design those spaces.
And we're going through one ofthose changes now, and this is a
golden opportunity to design acity that we are really proud
of, and that people will lookback 50 years from now and say,
wow. They really got that right.As I'm sure they will about so
many other things that exist inthe city now, like starting with
(53:19):
Balboa Park.
Crystal Page (53:20):
Oh, yeah. Balboa Park, The Shell, Petco Park is
truly world class, all thesethings. So I think you're a 100%
right in you know, we want folksto look back and feel proud.
That's not to say we're notalready awesome because San
Diego is an awesome city.
Grant Oliphant (53:35):
Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is you're
building on strengths.
Crystal Page (53:38):
Exactly. And I think, you know, I just came
back from a Comic Con, sowalking down the gas lamp
quarter, just to you know, Idon't know how it all gets done,
but to feel curious about thesebuildings, like you said, the
art having the murals, or Ithink Omar mentioned at some
point the, multi use spaceswhere maybe there's a vendor
(53:59):
who's there or a a renter orsomething. All those things will
diversify and and make spacesmore engaging.
Grant Oliphant (54:05):
You know, I think spaces that perform
functions, that appeal to peopleon multiple levels, that's
really important. And I yeah.You really get, I was I missed
this year's Comic Con, as youknow, but I think what is
magical when you're in the cityfor an event like that, and and
(54:27):
it's just a singular kind ofevent for San Diego to host. But
part of what's magical is yousee people interacting with the
city, and they're they'reobviously engaging with, the
park, with Balboa Park, they'reengaging with the cultural
district, they're engaging withthe museum, they're engaging
with the convention center, theythey walk to the waterfront,
(54:51):
they walk into the gas lampquarter, they walk into Little
Italy. There's just so much toexperience, and how we continue
to build on that is actually animportant question for this
generation.
You know, we tend to think thatcities happen by accident, but
they're actually a series ofconsequential decisions that
(55:12):
happen over time, and the greatcities make those decisions in a
really thoughtful and anddeliberate way, and they think
about what it is that peoplereally need from a city, which
by the way is kind of differentthan where we were 50 or 60
years ago when it was reallyabout what architects wanted, or
(55:33):
what designers thought wasimportant. One of the lessons
we've learned is you gotta askpeople, you've gotta engage
community, and you've gottalearn from them about what it is
they aspire to in a community,and then you start designing
really great spaces and places.And San Diego deserves it has it
has many and it deserves more,and we're in the process now of
(55:56):
making decisions that will shapethe future of this city and how
it's perceived. So we should doit with some real creativity and
responsibility.
Crystal Page (56:05):
And, Grant, you and Omar, in the conversation,
discussed different regions he'sworked in, different cities, and
I know you all mentioned workingtogether in Pittsburgh. So can
you talk about what thedevelopment of of that downtown,
what what role he played there,and and and what you took away
from that?
Grant Oliphant (56:22):
Yeah. Well so that project, which was known as
Hazelwood Green, was basicallythe redemption of a 170 Acre
site that was a former steelmill that had been closed
obviously, and then torn down.An amazing open space in the
(56:43):
city on the riverfront in kindof a neighborhood that was still
struggling, but nonetheless abeautiful old neighborhood that
sat just downhill from the majoruniversity center in Pittsburgh.
So it was a it was a prettyspecial place, but in a town
(57:06):
where not a lot of developmenthas happened, not like it
happens in San Diego. And togive you an idea of how stark
the difference is, inPittsburgh, the idea that land
like that would have value issimply not the case.
(57:27):
You know? The land, almost hasto be contributed to help it be
developed in a way. Whereas inSan Diego, land has enormous
value, and, for people in SanDiego it's probably impossible
to conceive of that environment,but for much of America,
particularly in the middle ofthe country, that's often what
(57:48):
you encounter is a realchallenge to development that
starts with what is the value ofthe land itself. And what Omar
did with us was figure out howto come up with a vision for the
use of that land that wouldconnect with developers and
create an incentive for partnersto wanna come to the table and
develop that project. And, theHeinz Endowments, which I was
(58:13):
working with alongside with,Richard King Mellon Foundation
and, and, the Benedum Foundationin Pittsburgh jointly figured
this figured this out, and theproject is now well underway.
And it's exciting because it'sturning what used to be a symbol
(58:33):
of old, the old economy, into asymbol of a vibrant new city and
a vibrant new economy. In a in away every project is like that.
The dynamics may be different,but what Omar understands, and I
think he spoke to this, is everytime we go into one of these
(58:54):
projects we're thinking throughthe story that you're telling
about the city that you're in.And the story I know that the
downtown partnership wants totell and the mayor wants to tell
and we certainly wanna tell isthe story of a dynamic city that
values everyone, but also caresabout, really good design,
(59:18):
connection with art, connectionwith nature, and inspiring
places.
Crystal Page (59:26):
Well and what's striking to me, right, even
though the land is not valuedwas not valued the same there, I
do think it sounds like you hadto build kind of the coalition
of the willing. Right? We knowhere, sometimes there's the doom
loop of we can't have nicethings, but we can. Yeah. So I'm
just really curious in terms of,did you watch people through
(59:47):
that process, like, get moreexcited and on board with this
idea?
What did that look and feellike?
Grant Oliphant (59:52):
You know the start of any I I think this is
true everywhere. The start ofany visioning process is people
asking, well, what makes youthink that we could do that? Or
what makes you believe that wecould aspire to something
different than what, you know,what we have, or, who appointed
you to lead that? And that'sjust in the nature of
(01:00:15):
leadership, and I think in everycase where change happens,
somebody steps forward and helpsstart the conversation and put
some resources on the table, andthen, yes, others step in, and
if the if the vision isexciting, then what you see is
more and more owners of thatprocess taking it over. I think
(01:00:36):
we can do the I think we wewe're already experiencing the
same thing here.
There are so many people in SanDiego actually, we're way ahead
of the game because there are somany people in San Diego who
wanna see this project be great,and who are really thirsting for
an opportunity to prove that wecan do something exceptional in
this space. I am so jazzed aboutthe possibilities there,
(01:00:58):
especially because we're workingwith somebody like Omar who gets
it and can help the city and andall of us figure out what the
art of the possible is in ourdowntown.
Crystal Page (01:01:10):
Well and what you said that just stood out to me,
I think it, calls back to yourconversation with Omar where he
really talked about if there'sleadership and or vision,
resources will follow that, andI I hope I think that's what
we're seeing here. Right?There's there's a hope. There's
a vision. It's getting refinedand, hopefully, it's like field
of dreams.
(01:01:30):
If you build it, they will come,you know?
Grant Oliphant (01:01:31):
Yeah. Well, and I think the beauty of that
statement, you know, if youbuild it, they will come is when
you oftentimes when you start atthe front end with an idea for a
really beautiful inspiring goal,people really are skeptical, but
they very quickly when theyrealize you're serious, they
very quickly get excited aboutit and then they start adding to
(01:01:53):
it. That's the point where youreally know it's taken hold
because others are arecontributing to it.
Crystal Page (01:01:59):
You're right. Because as soon as we announced,
the grant that was being made todowntown partnership for this
development, I received severalcalls from theater folks who
were like, we are so excitedthat you care about the space
and the possibility ofprotecting the civic theater.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:15):
Yeah.
Crystal Page (01:02:15):
You know? And it just reminded me how much these
locations mean to people theirown memories Right. Their own
experience of the culturelocally.
Grant Oliphant (01:02:23):
Yeah. And and I think that, by the way, is a
wonderful place to end becausethe role of art and culture in a
city, the importance of itcannot be overstated, and I just
so appreciate that one of thethemes that is coming up over
and over again in ourconversations with people is the
(01:02:44):
importance of having artdowntown and how much they
appreciate and value the CivicTheatre and how much they
appreciate the role of art intheir city, it's exciting and I
think we're we're reallyembarked on an exciting time in
San Diego, and I appreciateOmar's helping us tee up the
(01:03:04):
conversation.
Crystal Page (01:03:05):
Me too. Here's to the future of our city.
Grant Oliphant (01:03:07):
Alright. Thanks so much.
Crystal Page (01:03:09):
Thank you.
Grant Oliphant (01:03:13):
This is a production of the Prebys
Foundation, hosted by GrantOliphant, and co hosted by
Crystal Page. The program is coproduced by Crystal Page and
Adam Greenfield, and it'sengineered by Adam Greenfield.
Production assistance isprovided by Tess Kresge, and our
(01:03:34):
new theme song is by misterLyrical Groove, a local San
Diego artist. Download episodesat your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at stop and talkpodcast.org. If you like this
show, and we really hope you do,the best way to support it is to
(01:03:55):
share, subscribe, and review ourpodcast.
Thank you for your support, yourideas, and most of all, for
listening. This program has beenrecorded at The Voice of San
Diego Podcast Studio.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.