Scott Lewis: Journalism, Democracy, and the Future of San Diego

Episode Transcript
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Crystal Page (00:00):
Stop. Talk to me.

Scott Lewis (00:04):
Hey, Grant. Hey, Crystal.

How are you?

Grant Oliphant (00:13):
I am I'm really good. Thank you.

Awesome. I heard we had The Voice of San Diego in
for this interview.

Yes. So we had Scott Lewis, who is the editor
in chief of The Voice of SanDiego, which is a nonprofit news
outlet in in San Diego, andreally the first in the country
that initially put together themodel of publicly supported
media with an an onlinepublication.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear what he has to
say, so perhaps we should justjump in.

Let's do it.

Alright. Alright.

Scott Lewis, thanks so much for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

This is a treat. I have, I've actually known you
for a long time even thoughreally only gotten to know each
other in the last three yearssince I But moved to we met a
couple of decades ago when youcame to Pittsburgh to talk to to
us in Pittsburgh about doingnonprofit media, and San Diego

(01:13):
is at the forefront of amovement that you came to talk
to us about. What what stuckwith you about that, that visit
with us aside from, obviously,the brilliant people you met.

Yeah. The brilliant yeah. What was his name? John
Ellis. Yeah.
Yeah. That was fun. Pittsburgh,just getting to know Pittsburgh.
I've never been there. We wereon a high for a while of we were
we weren't the first nonprofitnews organization, we weren't
the first online newsorganization, but we were the
first to put those together fora local community, and now
there's hundreds out there.
And so when that sort of startedspreading and we got a lot of

(01:47):
publicity for it, I was justloving all these opportunities I
got to go to different places tospeak and talk and learn about
them. I would have had, I think,no drive to Pittsburgh, and I
loved the place. The number offoundations there. There was a
lot of civic culture, I think,that is different than it is

(02:08):
here, and I learned, I took thataway. Like, there's just kind of
an institutional presence andconcentration there that's just
different.

Yeah. Every every town has its pluses and
minuses. Right? So, yeah, thecivic culture there was great,
but we were looking at youbecause, yeah, you were the
first, and San Diego was doingsomething Mhmm. That we weren't
and that we envied.
You know, I think you weremodeling a path that a lot of
communities, as you pointed out,then followed, including

(02:35):
including ours there. Yeah. Butnow I'm here.

Yes, you are.

And Do you like it? Oh, I love it. I'm sorry

the weather's not good as it is.

Yeah. Get it. Weather is weather is a
complicated thing, but not no.It's it's extraordinary being
here. This is a you know, therewas a transition that but it it
really is an exceptional place.
And part of what I love is thisongoing commitment to what you
do. And it's fascinating havingseen you back then and heard

(03:08):
from you back then when you werethe pioneer to now where you're
you're still at it and stillworking the model. What
attracted you to this work inthe journalism space and the
Voice of San Diego space in thefirst place?

Well, I just needed a job.

That's That's often a

Yeah. That's often a motivator. My wife was in the
Navy, and that was what broughtus to San Diego, and so I left
the jobs I had and came here. Iwas able to get an $11 an hour
job covering real estate andwater at the daily transcript in
02/2003. And I thought thosewere terrible beats, but it
turned out covering real estatein 2003 was really educational

(03:50):
and important.
And covering water hasinfluenced my knowledge and the
things I care about. And and Ithink it's really important part
of San Diego, and it's beengreat to know. And about a year
and a half later, Boy San Diegowas coming together. They
offered me a job. I said no, andone of my friends got the job,

(04:11):
and I stayed in touch and cameaboard in 02/2005.
So I was just a Navy wife orspouse and came here and wanted
to be part of the culture andjust get involved in reporting,
and this was the opportunitythat came up.

Why do you think it was that San Diego became, as
you said, the first to put thesetwo models together of publicly
supported journalism and onlinejournalism.

It's a really interesting story. So Buzz
Woolley and Neil Morgan. BuzzWoolley's a philanthropist,
venture capitalist, kind ofright of center politics. Neil
Morgan, longtime editor of theEvening Tribune, longtime
journalist in San Diego. Andthey were friends.
They knew each other. And whenthe Union Tribune fired Neil

(05:01):
Morgan, it's the kind of guy youshould have a party for and give
him a watch or something, butinstead they just sort of pushed
him out. There's lot of that in

journalism at that time. Yeah.

And they got together, and they just wanted
to solve the problem ofjournalism and funding it in the
most simple way possible, andthey stumbled on. A lot of
people say like, oh, Voicestarted because the newspaper
industry was falling apart.02/2003, 02/2004, the newspaper
industry was doing fine. Thenewspapers were selling for a

(05:31):
billion dollars, $800,000,000the Union Tribune could have
sold for at that time. They theyhad a lot of Mhmm.
Still capitals, you know, sortof inertia from the previous
decades. They wanted to figureout how do we have a
professional organization withthe most, you know, diverse
sources of revenue possible, andwe don't need to make any money.
And so they settled on this, andthat became, I think because

(05:54):
they were going at it with thatmodel, or with that problem in
mind, settled they on thenonprofit model which served and
became, like, the model that somany other people then said, oh,
that's a great idea.

Yeah. Seemed obvious in hindsight.

Yeah. Think the Union Tribune's monopoly is what
really sort of kinda festeredthat, right? It was just like,
oh, how we how do we provideanother voice, literally another
voice that would, you know, beable to survive, and you know,
in the most efficient waypossible, and that's what they
settled on.

Fast forwarding to today, do you see San Diego
now as still a hotbed of thistype of journalism? Mean,
there's, of course, Voice, butyou also have iNewsSource here,
you have a multitude actually ofother organizations that have
entered the space. Is thatunique to San Diego in your

(06:46):
opinion?

Yeah. Absolutely. I think we created a cluster of
sorts. Right? Like, and I'mproud of that as well, and I
don't think it's disputed thatwe set the model up that you can
do professional journalism in adifferent way without the sort
of institutional, you know,history.
Mhmm. And I think that, yeah,iNewSource came along, Times of

(07:09):
San Diego, saw theopportunities. There was others
that came and went during thattime. And then, you know, I
think people realized that wecan take this challenge. So,
just quick history, you know,the newspapers used to do public
service journalism as like aancillary benefit to this
business they were running,right?

(07:30):
Right. It was like a side thing.Right. And they made so much
money that they could fund thatpublic service independently,
and it wasn't a big deal untilthey stopped making money. And
so what we've what we sort ofpioneered wasn't just the
nonprofit model, it was the ideathat, like, that should be
funded directly as opposed to anancillary benefit of a business.

(07:50):
It should be, like, directlyfunded by standalone. Exactly.
Yeah. And so I think thatthought, like, oh, we can just
directly pay for and figure outhow to fund that kind of
journalism is is what the reallesson of what we created here
was.

So did you have any, highfalutin ideas about the
role of journalism when you werewhen you were getting this
going? Or I mean, you joke aboutjust having wanting a a job, but
that's not how you talk aboutthe role on the mission. So what
were your ideas that weremotivating you at the time?

The biggest thing that we set in motion was sort
of two parts. One was we weren'tgonna do anything that anyone
else was doing. We have to bebetter or different than
everybody else. And that wasthat was just key to, like, a
business surviving. If we'rejust doing the same things that
the paper is doing or that theTV stations are doing, then what
are we even here for?
Why would anybody fund us? Sothat was a really important so

(08:51):
if a plane crash, we had toteach our reporters, like, you
don't go cover that. Like,you're not gonna be able to add
any value to that. You need to

Oh, wow.

You need to maybe spend some time investigating
why it happened or figure outsomething that you can do in a
couple days, a slow food kind ofthing, a slow news kind of
thing. The other thing we didwas really attack the news
voice. There was a voice thatdeveloped over decades in the
objective journalism world ofauthority of, like

Everybody was Walter Cronkite

and Edward

r r Morrow and Exactly that. Yeah. Like, this
is

the way it happened. And Yeah. And, you
know, a crowd of people gatheredin downtown. It it was just this
and it created a distancebetween the public and the
journalist, where the journalistwas able to say, like, act as an
authority, almost a superiorentity. And the public suspected
that there was more to thatperson, that they were seeping

(09:48):
through their voice, sometimestheir own.
And what we wanted to do wasjust be candid, conversational,
and so we would even play on it.Unit Tribune for a while would
refuse to recognize our work.They would pull off something we
had figured out, and then theywould write an editorial about
it. Reportedly, this happened,and so, or even when they would

(10:09):
do it, they would say like, oh,you know, Voice San Diego, a
local news website would dothis. And so we started doing
the the Union Tribune, a localnewspaper.
So we would just have fun withit and try to like talk to
people normally Yeah. And in aconversational voice. And people
really responded to that, theyfelt like I think that was a
better way to create trust withthem was to just talk and write

(10:30):
in a way that we would talk.

You know, the issue of voice, I'd I'm so glad
you brought that up because I Idid wanna ask you about that.
Yeah. And the voice certainlyhas a distinctive voice, you
know, and it's, irreverent.

Yeah.

I I I probably shouldn't share this, but I'm
going to anyway because youinvited it. Sure. So, you know,
in the questionnaire that we dofor our guests, one of the
questions we ask is, is theresomething that we shouldn't be
asking you about? Because we'rethis that's not the point of the
podcast Right. Is to put them onthe spot.
But your answer was some versionof, if there's any question I
don't want you to ask me about,you should ask me about it.

A 100%. So

Which I loved. I thought that was that was great.
Not everybody loves that, youknow, and and and so have have
you gotten a lot of pushbackfrom the community about being
irreverent, what some might callsnarky? And how do you balance
that with the obligation to alsotry and do real news?

I think the most pushback I get is that we're not
that as much anymore, maybe. Oh,really? We're not living up to
it sometimes when we should, andmaybe we're getting too, you
know, serious and too part ofthe the system. I think the, for
a while, I think we thrived onthat sort of surprising people
more spicy, irreverentheadlines, as you said, and

(11:50):
stuff that just kinda caughtpeople's attention. But I really
did just wanna lean into like,no, let's just talk.
Let's just share and write.Everybody, because I think that
part of the problem in San Diegowas that we hid behind a
discomfort of conflict, adiscomfort of just not being

(12:10):
part of the status quo. And so Ithink this town is a little bit,
and has been, too afraid ofbeing real with each other in a
way that holds it back fromprogress. We need to be able to
battle. There's always somebodythat's upset that a councilman
asks too many questions orsomething, and it's like, Oh,

(12:32):
you should have been nicer tothem.
No, let's just have it out. Iknow that we're on the same page
and that we can make progressout of that. And I think, to the
contrast actually, I think we'rehaving, we only had success
because we were able to surprisepeople. This is our twentieth
anniversary this year.

We had a a great year.

We have a lot of members. And I think people
really value that and want tohave real conversations, and
that's what I wanted to foster.

Which which makes so much sense. You know,
you and I are talking on a daywhen the senate, has just voted
to defund public media, so NPRand the Corporation for Public
Broadcasting. And I suspect thatwill stand. So I suspect by the

(13:21):
time this podcast comes out thatwe'll be living in a world where
the government has backed off ofpublic support for public media,
which in a way makes thoseplatforms analogous to you.
Yeah.
Given the work you do, how doyou feel about that, and how
does it reflect on the role ofan an outlet like like Voice in

(13:48):
contributing value to oursociety?

I guess I'm gonna test myself about how real that
can be here. Yeah. The

Be be real.

Go on. Be brave. Everybody's watching. So I think
a couple things. To the extentthat the cuts hurt access to
information, in particular inrural areas, I know there's a
lot of people in Alaska reallyworried about their access to
some of these, beloved publicradio and public broadcasters.

(14:18):
I think that to the extent thatit hurts the availability of
educational programming, that'sa crisis and that's bad. I think
that relying on governmentfunding was always a dicey
proposition, and it was alwaysuncomfortable to, I think, have

(14:40):
a system that wanted to reporteffectively and irreverently on,
you know, these institutions toknow that deep down they they
also relied on them. I mean, andI think that the only silver
lining would be that maybe NPRand some of these entities now

(15:03):
can even feel more willing andable to develop a voice of
accountability, of not have toalways be vulnerable to that
punching bag they've been fordecades, where like, oh, you're
government funded, you'regovernment funded, maybe they'll
find more freedom and more voiceif they if they have that

(15:27):
release.

So the potential for a more authentic

And I don't wanna dismiss the pain and the and the
loss of jobs and the the, youknow, the cutbacks will have to
occur. I know that KPBS isworried and will have to plan
multi years in advance about howto deal with some of these
things. And, again, the to the alot of the funding went to just
making sure that some of theserural rural areas had the
antennas and the infrastructureto reach people. And I think

(15:52):
that's a to just look past that,when you're talking about the
need to access information forflooding or catastrophes or
other things, like, you can'thave that.

And in many communities, public radio was
the only source of that. Right.

And I think, but this will be an opportunity for
them to make their case toindividuals, to respond to the
market, and to try to createsomething that is potentially
more interesting out of this.And I hope that it's a scary
proposition, and I don't wannadismiss it, but there is an

(16:28):
opportunity after that.

To what extent, this is a this is a macro
question about the state ofjournalism in our country and
our democracy, but the I havenoticed, basically under the new
administration that, and I'm anNPR listener, that increasingly,

(16:53):
the Republican side of the aislehas just refused to answer calls
from their reporters and toacknowledge calls from their
reporters. So they're having tosay in every story, we reached
out to the office of so and soand did not get a callback. Or
are you concerned at all aboutthis, what's happening with
public media as an expression ofincreasing disregard for the

(17:18):
role of journalism in society,and is it becoming easier just
to brush it off Regardless ofwhere people are in the
political spectrum.

100%. I think we're in an environment, especially in
the national discussion Mhmm.Where you you never have to
interact with a silo that you'renot a part of. And that when we
try to make deals out of that,or we try to have conversations
about shared problems orcollective solutions, that's

(17:47):
almost impossible because you'rejust listening to different
people, you're working off adifferent story, you're a
completely different reality.And yeah, that's awful, and I
don't know how to deal withthat.
I think that at the heart ofthat is this need for, your
audience to be truly diverseacross the spectrums, your

(18:09):
audience to have built thattrust. That's why I'm so
passionate about the news voice.You have to be communicating
with somebody that even ifthey're, if they think you're
off in different reality, thatthey have to listen to you, that
they wanna listen to you, and ifthey haven't, if that separated
so much that they don't feelthat obligation, that they're

(18:30):
not gonna suffer electorally,that or they're not gonna feel
the blowback in their community,then, yeah, that's a severe
crisis for a a national entitylike NPR. Locally, we have the
benefit of being able to see andtalk to people directly and see
leaders and talk to themdirectly. If we say there's a
sinkhole on a street, like,that's something that people can

(18:52):
go see is true.
And if there's a politicianaround the corner, like, we can
talk to them and we can presentthem, and then somebody can go
see that they're a real personand humanize them. That's just
not possible on a nationalscale, and I think it is really
causing a chasm that I don'tknow how to address.

So I know you and I both believe that Yeah.
You can challenge me. Sure. Butbut I think we both believe that
journalism is a critical part ofdemocracy, you know. And and if
everybody's living in theirbubble and it's possible to just
blow off an entire newsorganization because they have
an inconvenient way of coveragecovering the news for you, Is it

(19:32):
is it still true that journalismcan play the role that we all
hoped it would in in advancingdemocracy in the way that our
founders, I think, believed thatit would when they included the
freedom of the press in theFirst Amendment?

It has to be. I don't think journalism can
survive without democracy, and Idon't think democracy can
survive without journalism. Wewe see other societies where
journalists are killed orpersecuted or otherwise removed
from their positions, whetherit's Russia or Mexico, where you
can't report on certain thingswithout getting in the in the

(20:09):
hairs of paramilitaries orsomething. So in those
societies, that's not afunctioning open democracy. And
if if you're not right now, Ican say anything I want about
the mayor and know that I willsurvive, that my family won't
get kidnapped, that there won'tbe, you know, jail down the the
road.
That's just not the case inother places, and vice versa,

(20:33):
they have to respond and dealwith the public outrage, or just
the public voice, in a way thatif that was removed, they
wouldn't have to, and thus notan open society. And so to the
extent we get to a federalsystem where the federal
government doesn't have to dealwith the storytellers and can
otherwise dismiss them, or evenworse, yeah, I think at that

(20:56):
point we can say a version ofthe democracy that we know is
done. Now, does that mean it'sover, or that journalism can't
figure that out? No, I thinkthat what we have to be able to
do, what journalists have to beable to do, is write and speak
and present things that are sopowerful and so interesting and
so able to create trust witheverybody that might be

(21:18):
interested that they can't beignored. And to the extent that
NPR or other places aren't doingthat right now, that should be
their primary challenge isfiguring out how to speak and
say and create content thattraverses that in in a way that
can't be ignored.
That's our really our only hope.

I think that's a really powerful answer. Let's
bring it down to the locallevel. Yeah. You know, let's
come because this is where we'refocusing and you're focusing,
and I I loved what you said amoment ago, which is, you know,
about the fact that on the locallevel, people can still see
problems in not abstract terms,but as real things like

(21:59):
sinkholes or or realpersonalities that they
encounter in public life or onthe streets. So how do you how
do you see this whole fight fordemocratic principles in our
society playing out on a locallevel?
When you go to work every dayand you're putting on your your

(22:22):
Superman costume. What is itwhat what is it that is
motivating you around that setof ideals?

I think it's super healthy right now, frankly.
Like, I think there's a lot ofplaces that need more covers,
that need more engagement.There's no question about that.
But the the ability for peopleon the local level to raise
their voice and be heard, Ithink is as strong and vibrant
as it ever has been. I think theparticipation's more diverse.

(22:50):
I think that storytelling andthe power of storytelling is as
impactful as it ever has been. Ithink what worries me is that
the city and the county of SanDiego are facing some challenges
that are not being addressed andwe're not fixing to the point

(23:11):
where we're gonna start to seesome rather catastrophic
outcomes. The

Yeah, name them. We just did

a story this week about enrollment in San Diego
public schools down 25,000students. Some of these, there's
a lot of places, elementaryschools in particular down 50%,
down 25%, down 30% over the lastten years. This is an outcome of
A, declining birth rates, and B,the cost of living. It's

(23:41):
impossible for so many familiesto picture raising their kids
here, or building a family here,or having more kids. And how do
we get to the other side of thiscost of living crisis?
I don't Right. And theinfrastructure's crumbling. I
was surfing the other day inOcean Beach, and thousands of

(24:02):
pelicans took over the OceanBeach Pier, and it was the
coolest the Ocean Beach Pier haslooked in months because it is
just a symbol of decline. It's acrumbling, you know, 500,000
people used to go there everyyear, and now it's just
crumbling. The Civic Center, youyou guys are working on that.
Is so awful. It's just an awfulplace. And there's so many

(24:25):
things like this around thecommunity of, we're gonna have
to start closing schools. Wehave so many people struggling
with mental health breakdownsand behavioral health crises in
the streets. We have campers andtent encampments everywhere.
So we might be doing a great jobtelling the story of San Diego
and people responding to it, Butthose big problems are only

(24:46):
getting worse right now, and Idon't know. I can't tell anybody
there's there's a lot ofoptimism right now that it's
gonna be fixed.

One of the things that you have said in
other place is that you believeit's really important. I I and I
completely agree with this, bythe way. It's really important
for a community to have a sharedstory. Yeah. And you view part
of your role as telling a sharedstory.
Yeah. So as I think about theexamples you just gave, they're
terrific examples becausethey're real, number one. And

(25:17):
there are multiple ways youcould cover them. You know, you
could you could approach thoseissues as from an explanatory
journalism standpoint and say,okay, we're gonna explain to
people what's going on here. Andthis is about cost of living and
and the fact that people can'tfind housing, and so kid you
know, families with young kidsleave the area, and that has

(25:40):
these downstream effects for fortax receipts.
And probably 30 words into thatstory, people's eyes glaze over.
Yeah. Another way of writingthat story is to go after the
politicians in a in a kind ofincendiary way and say, this is
their fault. Why aren't theyfixing it? Another way is to
blend those approaches and tryand when you're trying to tell

(26:03):
the shared story of San Diegoand and get the community and
its leaders to acknowledge someof these hard truths, how do you
calibrate what your coverage isgonna look like so that you're
adding value and and light andnot just heat?
Or do you worry about that?

Yeah. Absolutely. I think the primary criticism we
get is like, oh, you're justpointing out everything is
wrong, like where's the hope,where's the solutions, all this.
So we've been trying to reallyfigure out how our role is with
that. One of the things we didis we created a document called
What We Stand For.
It's like the, I think, 12principles of voice. Because we
wanted, when people say like,what's your bias? We wanted to

(26:45):
say like that, literally Yeah.Those are our bias. And the idea
is like, everybody should haveaccess to a great education, for
example.
Now whether that's a charterschool, private school, or
helping the current school getbetter, like, are going to be
fierce about, hey, this schoolis letting people down. What are
we gonna do about it? And Ithink that's the best way to go.
We the best experience and theexample I always use is we did

(27:08):
some investigative reportingabout ten years ago about areas
of town where emergency responsetimes were really high. And they
just happened to be historicallyunderserved, you know,
neighborhoods that have, youknow, traditionally dealt with
all of the problems of areaslike that.
And we presented that in such away that it was really a

(27:31):
dramatic show of inequality. Andwhat we decided is like, we're
not gonna take a stand on thesolutions. And so there was a
very robust debate about, hey,should the fire department put
new fire stations there withfully unionized firefighters, or
should there be paramedics outof because 80% of the calls are
are medical. Right. And theycould have, like, a storefront
or something.
So there was a big debate aboutthat. Yeah. But that's what I

(27:53):
try to say is like, hey, youguys gotta be fierce about the
problems. You gotta be clear andcandid about the problems. But
then you have to like let thesolutions and try to be fair
about them.
And I think that's the only wayI've figured out is to is to be
that sort of force people todeal with the problems in a way
that I think is still fair. Andand so I don't other than that,

(28:15):
I I haven't figured out how toget the city to to tackle or to
leaders to step up to tacklethese issues. Look. The city
council just spent four monthsarguing about, like, $5,000,000
in cuts when the city all ofthese infrastructure challenges
are coming and all of these, youknow, housing costs and
everything, and it's just it'sreally kinda depressing that the

(28:36):
low level of conversationhappening still.

So I'm, you know, I'm curious. I in some
ways, I see this as endemic tocities and regions that,
especially complex regions wherethere are multiple cities and
multiple units of government,and leadership gets diffused and
there are plenty of other peopleto point fingers to.

Yeah.

That, you know, there's a tendency everywhere to
want to minimize the problemsbecause you don't wanna depress
people. Yeah. And yet, you know,I I I think what you and I share
among other things is a beliefthat you can't get better unless
you name the problem. So youmentioned the Civic Center. I'm

(29:21):
sorry.
It doesn't take a rocketscientist. Walk around the Civic
Center and you see the problem.And you understand intuitively
why it became that way becauseof how it was created and
designed and the need for a cityto have a different image of
itself. Yeah. I think similarlywith the Tijuana River Valley,

(29:42):
the idea that that was justdismissed as an inconvenience to
beachgoers and surfers when it'sa literal public health crisis
and an economic justice issue.
Not not okay. So it's importantfor and I think one of the roles
that journalism plays is indrawing attention to those
things. On the other hand, youknow, it you do come up against

(30:06):
that that next thing of, okay,well, what are you gonna do
about it? And in a case like ourfoundation, we typically try and
answer that question becausethat's really what we're in the
business of doing. Do you viewthat as the role of journalism
though?

A 100%. I think journalism hasn't been good at
that though. Yeah. Like, part ofwhy we did the the what we stand
for document is becausejournalists have been really
good at handling and addressingsmall problems. Mhmm.
Somebody gets paid too much orhas a conflict of interest or,
you know, these little thingsthat sort of drive outrage
because that was the only thingthey were willing to be outraged
about, that they their theirsort of objectivity lens had put

(30:46):
them in a place where theydidn't have values. They
couldn't display values. And soI think what what I try to get
across is like, no. The bigproblems have to be in our scope
because that's what people areworried about, the cost of
living, homelessness, all thesethings. And so we have to be
able to figure out how to forcethose conversations.

(31:07):
And it's not easy. And but Ithink the answer I always give
to your point about, like, oh,we don't wanna depress people. I
think it's the height ofoptimism to to think that a
community is strong enough todeal with its biggest problems
and to not be shy about talkingabout them. And I think that
that's what's reallyunfortunate, I think, when a

(31:28):
mayor or somebody gets electedand they start feeling defensive
about the entity, like anythingnegative about it is like
something they see as a personalattack, when it should be like,
they should embrace the biggestproblems because that's their
only way to ever provide bigsolutions.

Right.

And I I want to create a culture where people
are more willing to do that, butI still am a part of a culture
that knocks them down for, youknow, stumbles along the way or
little things that they get introuble with where they're
they're gun shy to do that kindof thing. And I recognize, you
know, my role in doing that aswell. And so I think it's about

(32:06):
creating a story where, like,these are the big problems,
nothing else really mattersunless you're dealing with them
constantly and providingsolutions to them constantly.
And I hope to get better at metforcing that and making sure
that they that they're that theysee participating in those big
conversations as rewarding asthe little sort of takedowns.

Alright. So I have this thesis Yeah. Which is
and this has been a this hasbeen an issue for me since
coming to town. And the thesisis that San Diego has these
amazing assets and amazingpeople, amazing opportunities,
and it should set its highsights higher on the possibility

(32:50):
of what can happen here. Weshould be a leader in the state.
We should be a leader in thecountry. The tendency is to look
at problems, and and this is notunique to San Diego. But the
tendency is to look at theproblems we have and obsess
about those and say that, youknow, we should take what we can

(33:10):
get by way of a solution, andthe truth in life is that you
you get to big ideas by makingthe problem bigger, not smaller.
Yeah. Kind of exactly what youwere saying.
But a thesis that we've beenfollowing is that part of our
role should be to help inspireSan Diego to take on bigger

(33:31):
ideas and bigger challenges.What I'm curious about is, do
you see that as, given thehistory that you've seen in San
Diego, as an importantinflection point for us
culturally as a community, andcan it happen?

It's tough. This isn't like other places. People
a lot of people came here to becomfortable and not to build a
city. This isn't like a youknow, I grew up

in Utah. Heard anybody say that, but I guess
that's I guess I guess that'strue. Yeah.

Yeah. I grew up in Utah where the even whether it's
right or left, there's alwaysprogress. Like, it's just
building constantly. It's alwaysgrowing. It's building new
thing, infrastructure, Olympics.
It's just constantlyprogressing. Pittsburgh, I felt,
was similar. It's just this,like, always, what are we gonna
do next? How are we gonna getthere? And and I think the the
San Diego is not that.
San Diego, a lot of thepopulation of San Diego is

(34:29):
transitory military, or coming,going, or people who came here
to leave that race, or to leavethat progress and just be here.
This community has alwaysstruggled with the two faces
that it has. One is the peoplewho just want it to be the way
that they know and the way thatthey feel is comfortable, and

(34:50):
leave me alone, and just don'tmess with my neighborhood. And
then the other group that'strying to build these
industries, and the biotech, andthe military industries, and the
desalination technologies, andall of the, like, things that
the tech world that's creatingall these jobs, and the
university system that supportsit. And so we have, they used to
call it, Geraniums versus MostSmokestacks.

(35:12):
It's the same fight we've alwayshad, where the one group wants
to build and create jobs, theother group wants to just make
things nice and stop botheringus, be Santa Barbara. And I
think that they always fight.And guess what? They both always
win. They always create thejobs, and the other side always
stops the creation of housingand other things to accommodate

(35:33):
all the people that come here.

But don't you think that balance has to, at
some point, change if the cityis gonna move forward?

I absolutely do, but it doesn't, and that's why
we have so many thousands ofpeople living in homelessness
here. And it's the same thing,same reason why we had so many
thousands of people living inhomelessness in the forties.
Yeah. It's because thatimbalance is just not
reconciled. And I think it'sreally hard to get people to

(36:01):
agree with it.
So you can say to them, oh,you're gonna close schools in
Point Loma and in Ocean Beach ifyou don't allow more families to
live here. And I think they'remaybe fine with that. I don't
and that's what scares me is,like, if you say to them, hey,
if we don't change this, ourbirth rates and our trajectory
as a population is gonna startto come down for the first time,

(36:23):
and we we've never seen thathappen. And it's and it's gonna
be more like Santa Barbara thanI'm playing. They'll be like,
great.
Santa Barbara's great. You know,I think there's a lot of people
still there. I remember we triedto build a new airport, 02/2006.

I've heard the story.

Yeah. Do you mind? No. Please, go ahead. I love
this story because I think it'strue that they flew out the guy
who the the mayor, Federico Penafrom Denver who had built the
airport there.
And they're like, hey. What dowe do? And he has this big
meeting and he's like, well, youyou first of all, all need to
decide that you need a newairport. Like, in Denver, it was

(37:00):
unquestioned. The StapletonAirport was terrible.
It was a mess. It congested. Weall knew the whole community in
Colorado knew we needed a newairport. But here, we didn't.
And and I don't think you all doagree that you need a new
airport.
I think a lot of you are justfine with how convenient it is
and where it is and how small itis. And he was exactly right.

(37:20):
This community was not on thesame page there. And I don't
think that's the problem. It'slike, I don't think this
community there's a lot ofpeople who are very comfortable
here.
And and so I don't think theythey want to go through the
challenge of seeing that big.And then there's a lot of
incentive to play to them inpolitics, and and that's what
what sticks us sometimes.

Interesting. I think that that really describes
for me the battle that is goingon for what the future of San
Diego is going to be shaped by.Yeah. And okay. As you think I
I'm I'm running out of time.
I got too many questions. Oh, Igotta I gotta get through a few
here. Sure. But as you thinkabout the role of nonprofit

(38:03):
local journalism to disruptequations like you just
described and dynamics like youjust described, This is a very
complicated landscape, and thereare multiple players. Yeah.
You did create something here.

Yeah.

And how do you state the case for why The Voice
and nonprofit journalismgenerally is really important at
a time when people arestruggling for over over issues
around housing and food andshelter, and that's gonna be
worse in the coming months, Ithink, as a result of federal
policy. How how do you thinkabout continuing to make the

(38:40):
case for journalism? And inasking that question, I should
acknowledge that you would wantme to acknowledge that we are a
funder of voice.

Yeah. Thanks.

We believe in the role of it. We also expect
that if you had somethingcritical to say about us, you
would say it. So I just need toput that on the table. But tell
me why you matter in thiscontext.

I think that a community cannot do anything to
make progress on its challengesunless it it it knows the facts
and stories behind it. Ourbrains don't work without
stories. And so in the absenceof official professional
journalists telling thosestories, then there's gonna be
some really weird ones beingspun by people that maybe aren't

(39:25):
as committed to the integrityand ethics as as we are
committed. Now, that doesn'tmean we're better. There's often
all kinds of people who cancontribute to that conversation.
But I think having an investmentin that is a tiny investment
compared to the return thatcould come. You could have an
investigative journalist inevery neighborhood of the San

(39:45):
Diego's sort of 60 meganeighborhoods, you might call
them, across the entire region,you would have one in each one
of them for about $9,000,000 ayear. And that's not as much as
the opera or the symphony. It'sa tiny investment. And yet the
savings in avoiding corruptionand and making better decisions

(40:05):
and credit ratings.
And we we helped recover almost10,000,000 for the city in the
investigation of of the conflictof interest in the Ash Street,
problem. There's that's amassive benefit that the public
gets from from having that sortof system going on. And so in my
view, like, we have so fewjournalists, just a few more of

(40:28):
them in a community like this isan easy investment for
individuals, for grant makers,and for corporations to make
that, to to in in the civicculture of the community, the
return is just enormous. Mhmm.And then you get the benefit of
a community.
You talk about purpose andbelonging all the time. Like, we

(40:50):
have live podcasts or our offthe record event or others where
it's just these it's it's acommunity, and it's a shared
experience. Like, if you go andhave a softball game with your
friends, and then you go to thebeer the go have beers
afterwards, you're all talkingabout the game. Right? That's
the power of a shared experienceor a book club.
You read the same book, you havea great conversation because of

(41:10):
it. If you can create sharedexperiences like that, you
create community, and peoplehave something to talk about.
They have something to be a partof, and that's community.
Everybody for happiness needspurpose, belonging, and
community. Right?
You guys are big on that.

Yeah. So, like I was even gonna ask you about
that, so thank you for bringingit up.

And and so I think it's a tiny investment in in
that. Yeah. And Well, and itgoes back to your shared story

Right. Point that that the community develops
a sense of itself.

Yeah. And if it doesn't think of its its past
and its future and and kindaunderstand the same things about
why the Chargers left or why theyou know, why we're we're we
can't build housing in certainareas or anything. Why the
airport is where it is. Mhmm.Know, these these kinds of
things help us go forward andand talk to each other, frankly.

(41:59):
Yeah. And I think that we wehaving more people do that is
great, and I've just had to tellmy my staff, like, there's
Arizona State's in town now.They own, you know, the time of
San Diego, they bought a bunchof papers. And I had a lot of
people like, well, are we introuble? Are they gonna take our
support?
And I was like, I talked to adonor and I was like, yeah, I'm

(42:19):
kinda worried about this. Whatare you worried about? And I
said, well, I don't know, Iguess that you might give money
to them instead, because they'vegot a website and they've got
journalists they're hiring. Andhe's like, well, I'm not gonna
give money to Arizona State, butwhat does it matter? Have more
people doing this work, it'sgreat.
You should just keep doing whatyou do well and make a

(42:39):
difference, and you'll haveplenty of support. And that's
what I've had to rely on,through recessions, through
presidencies, through whatever.If I can keep making the case,
and if people still wanna listento the podcast, and they still
wanna read what we do, thenwe'll be okay.

Yeah. Which makes sense, and I think I think
your donor is probably probablycorrect. You've let's let's talk
about a couple of moves you'vemade at The Voice lately. Yeah.
You've you've made some boldmoves recently with shifting
Lisa Halverstadt to cover thecounty, adding Mariana Martinez
Barba as the San Diego City Hallreporter, and Jim Hinch to cover

(43:18):
South County for The Voice.
So what's the story behind thesechanges? Why why now are you are
you making these moves?

Well, so I used to do a lot of events and such in
South Bay, and, even going backten years ago, and people would
be like, well, why aren't youcovering us the way you cover
the city? And I'd be like, I'mcoming, I'm coming. And every
year, I have to go back, and wasgetting to the point where I was
truly ashamed. Finally, had adonor give us $5,000 and she

(43:50):
said, Hey, would you cover SouthPay more? And I was like, Yeah,
that's great, but I can't do iton 5,000.
We And were able to put togetheran initial funding that helped
us actually put an investigativereporter there. And it's gone so
well that I think the supporthas come out of the community,

(44:12):
the members, the readership thatcame out of it. He is he went in
there the perfect way. He said,I don't know anything. Talk to
me.
And he's met thousands ofpeople. He's just brought in,
like, this stream of story ideasand conversation that wouldn't
have happened and explanationand investigation that wouldn't
have happened without him. Andso it was the perfect expansion.

(44:34):
It was I've never had such aimmediate expansion that turned
out so well that now the fundingis much more reliable and and
something I can count on goingforward. And so, you know, now
we wanna we we are well knownfor our city hall coverage, but
we haven't actually had aninvestigative reporter at city
hall covering city hall stufffor for almost ten years.

(44:54):
Mhmm. And so I I said, like, wegotta get that back, have
somebody, because we were alldoing a piece of it. I was doing
some stuff like that. Now wehave her, Mariana, and that's
been, she's already starting insame thing. The mayor's already
gotten mad about something she'sdone.
And I'm really excited to seethat go. And now that has freed
us up to take Lisa, one of thebest homelessness and behavioral

(45:15):
health and just reporters intown, and put her on the county,
which is gonna go through amassive, disruption with the the
federal government's changes andthe big beautiful bill and their
responsibility. The mayor got upin front of the entire community
in January and said, if you seesomebody having a mental health
breakdown in the streets, I wantyou to think of the county.

(45:39):
Like, that's what he said in astate of the city speech. I want
you to think not of me, but ofthe county of San Diego, which
was a remarkable, like, versionof leadership.
Like, not my fault, like, bigversion. But also

He was making a point, right?

He was making a point the about

the county's role and their need to step up.

And so I I felt an incredible calling to say, like,
okay, let's vet that. Like,let's see. Like, are they doing
their part? Are are like, whatdo they need to do? Why are
people struggling so much in thestreet without having access to
services?
What can we do about that? Lisabeing on that on that beat is
gonna be amazing. So I'mexcited. I think we can get

(46:22):
readership out of those in sucha way that we can convert a
portion of those readers todonors, and all we need is about
10 to 15% of them to becomedonors at an average of $150
each, and we'll be able to fundthem into perpetuity.

So it deepens your storytelling about the
community, and it helps buildsupport Yeah. Over time. Let's
talk about PolitiFest, becausePolitiFest, I think, is is one
of the unique kind of things youdo. Yeah. And and I think it's
probably because of who you areand your interest in politics,
and so tell us about how thatcame about and

and So it's

really you are with it now.

So I I'm always influenced by the last book I
read or about the situation I'min. I had a kid, you know,
fourteen years ago, and Irealized like, oh, having kids
changes your ability participatein public stuff. I was Just a
bit. Yeah. So I was like, welllet's do a big field day.
You know, Lincoln and Douglasused to debate at a fair, right,

(47:19):
in front of all these peoplethat were having fun doing other
stuff. I thought, let's dosomething like that. We'll have
a big fair type thing, and thenwe'll have debates about
politics there. And I said,like, let's have a dunk tank and
a tug of war

and everything. Seems like a really bad idea.

It was so bad. It was really bad. But we did have
a great debate, and people didcome out to have that debate or
to watch that debate. So weended up morphing it into just,
okay, let's just have debates.Yeah.
And that's been going reallywell. Every year we have a
series, you know, a dozen ormore panels and discussions.
It's just a day where you canjust go and like, learn about

(47:53):
everything going on, all thesemarriage races or different
debates about the sewage crisisor water policy or whatever.
This year, though, with thiscalling about solutions, we were
worried, like, gosh, there's somany problems. We just keep
talking about the problems.
So we created this sort oftournament. So it's solutions
showdown. Each

one Kinda of like a civic competition. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And somebody actually suggested that the
winner should get a grant fromthe Previs Foundation, so maybe
we should talk

to somebody. Let's talk after But the

the idea is that they have a session, say about
the Tijuana River sewage crisis,and you'll have one person gets
10 to present their solution,and one person gets another ten
minutes to present theirsolution. And then they can have
a little debate discussion andfacilitate a conversation. And
then we'll go to the audience,both online and in the public at

(48:43):
the event, and say, okay, nowvote. Which one do you think
should advance? Which one's theone?
And then, so it's like a, itgamifies it a little bit, and
then at the end of the day we'llhave the winners come and
present and talk about

all That's

of cool, very cool. And so we think that that
appetite for solutions is there.So there's a lot of people who
have radical solutions tohomelessness, or to behavioral
health, or to, we have one aboututility prices, think, and stuff
like that. I think it could bereally interesting. It's And a
way to bring in diversesolutions and be fair about them
Mhmm.

(49:15):
In that way, but not be fairabout the problem. I'm not gonna
be objective about sewage comingover the border. That's bad.
Mhmm. The objective journalismof the past would have said,
well, maybe it's good in someway.
Maybe it's bacteria helps feedthe the algae or something. I
don't know. But no, like,there's no good side to that.
Like, let's accept that that'sbad. Mhmm.

(49:36):
But we can be fair about thesolution.

Do you do you think that the public is engaged
by this?

We'll see. I think, you know, we we get a pretty
good turnout for a Saturday inSeptember or October at
PolitiFest. I think we'repromoting this and involving
them early enough that it mightbe our best yet. Yeah. But we'll
see.
I mean, to the a lot of peopledismiss or say, oh, you got a
small audience or something. Wehave a really good and involved
audience. And our challenge ismaking that bigger and make

(50:07):
getting more people, you know,more diversity involved in in
all of those conversations sothat the solutions are even
better. But we're doing we'redoing great. So I knew this was
gonna happen.
We would run out of time beforeI even, you know, I'm half
halfway through all

the things I've But I I I do wanna wrap up by
asking you, in a way, it'scoming back to the question that
we talked about earlier. Butwhen you think about where San
Diego is right now, what's thestory we need to be telling
ourselves as a community rightnow?

I think that this community is stronger than it's
given credit for. I think thatit can address these big
problems and that it can beinspired by big solutions. And I
think that a lot of peoplebemoan, like, the leadership

(51:03):
crisis or the leadershipshortcomings. And I don't wanna
be another one just saying,like, where are the leaders? But
I do think if you are out therethinking like, hey, this is an
opportunity.
This is I would like to be partof this discussion that we need
people, and we're alwaysbenefiting from those who stand
out. And, you know, Larry Lukinosays, we're gonna build a new

(51:27):
stadium or a new downtownballpark. Like, people that can
pull together and weatherweather the storm and try to
pull something together to makesomething special happen that
I'd like to see more of themcome up. And why they won't, I
think is something we should betalking about and understanding
better. Because it used to be,well, it doesn't pay enough to

(51:50):
be on the city council, so wedoubled the pay of the city
council, and it's still notquite there, you know?
So what is it that's keepingvisionaries and really
interesting people from tryingto pull together really big
changes and just biggersolutions to the conversation?
And I don't know how to tellthat story better or how to

(52:12):
inspire people to be part of it,but that to me is is the core of
of of how we're gonna get out.Because I think we have
reinvented ourselves over thecenturies. We've we've handled
housing crises in the past.We've actually handled public
health crises.
And like, twenty years ago whenI started reporting here, sewage

(52:34):
bills happened all the time.Like, it was a constant thing.
They would shut down beacheswith thousands and thousands of
gallons of sewage would pourinto La Jolla or into Point Loma
area or in the Bay, and it wasjust like a normal thing, and
now it's not. And so what arethe things that we think of as
normal now, the people on thestreets or something, and and

(52:55):
that we could get past that? AndI I it comes down to people
willing to, like, dedicate theirpublic service experience to
pulling something off.
Maybe not change the whole city,but pulling something off. And
and we haven't seen a lot ofpeople really try to pull
something off lately.

Mhmm. Well, Scott, I think I think I think
that's a brilliant place to tostop. I I do think there's
evidence all around us that SanDiego can do great things Yeah.
You know, as you said. And thatthat's sort of the focus that
you wanna have at at the heartof of your journalistic
enterprise is a wonderfulcontribution to the life of this

(53:37):
community.
So you have a hard job. It's ahard industry and kind of
thankless because everybody'salways mad at you.

I get off on that. No.

That's fun. But I I really you know, I
appreciate the time to talkabout all of this and and and
more importantly, the work youdo to move San Diego forward. So
thank you.

Well, it means a lot. And and for you guys to
provide a platform for people tocome and talk and and and also
just be willing to talk aboutthese big issues is a big and
important, I think, new thingfor San Diego. And so thank you.
Alright.

What'd you think?

You know, I know Scott is such a thoughtful
person, but but I reallyappreciated hearing all the
thought behind what goes intotheir work, their values, and
their vision. It was prettypretty insightful.

Yeah. I such a good way of framing the
interview because I I think onsubject after subject, he's a
deep thinker who's trying tofigure out how this organization
that he leads in San Diego cando important work for this
community and in the context ofthe country. I I love, for

(54:52):
example, our our discussionabout the role of journalism in
democracy and and howchallenging this moment is. And
we all know it is, but to hearsomebody who's doing that work
on the ground in a local contextreally wrestling with how does
how how what they do relates tothe challenges confronting

(55:16):
public radio and the challengesconfronting media more generally
in the country. I I found thatfascinating.

Yeah. Like, we know that these federal cuts on
other parts of the nonprofitlandscape are gonna be
incredibly hard. Mhmm. But itsounded like he believed that a
greater accountability,responsibility could come out of
not having that revenue streamas part of

Yeah.

The work.

I I appreciated what you well, what you just
said is points to one of thethings I most appreciated about
this interview is that Scott hasframed a very hard path for the
voice of San Diego, but it'sgreat that they are trying to do
it. And that hard path istelling the truth about what

(56:01):
they see. So calling outchallenges and problems and
pointing out where they thinkleaders and community are
falling short, and at the sametime, trying to raise the bar on
what solutions are possible andhow we might move forward in a
more promising direction. Now Isay that's hard because it it's

(56:24):
just hard for journalism to getthat right, but the fact that
they want to wrestle with thathere in San Diego is, is a
testament to the to the positiverole they wanna play here.

Absolutely. And I think I was reminded that these
journalists wanna make adifference. Right? They want to,
at the end of the day, helppeople better understand, better
engage. And it actually, itreminded me of a time when Scott
and his team did, a piece onsidewalks in Encanto and what it

(56:58):
meant for kids walking toschool.
And so now, like, I don't know.I think it, makes me wanna
approach what they're doing withGrace instead of if I don't like
a piece or I do like a piece,it's really like, what can I
glean from this to engagebetter? So I I really appreciate
how he framed that.

That's such a good point. And I, you know, I
think it it for me, this will beone of the takeaways that it is
a hard it is a hard time to bedoing this work because even in
a local context, you're notpopular all the time for what
you do or say when you're ajournalist. And we are living in

(57:35):
this era where journalists areincreasingly treated globally
and nationally as objects ofscorn. So the fact that we have
this group trying to play apositive role in telling the
story of our community throughthe rigorous eye of journalism
is a pretty cool part of the SanDiego landscape. And I am I'm

(57:58):
really proud that we'reaffiliated with them.

Me too. And, just great job on that interview, and
and thanks to Voice of San Diegofor lending their voices to stop
and talk.

Thank you, Crystal.

Awesome. See you next time.

This is a production of the Prebys
Foundation.

Hosted by Grant Oliphant.

Co hosted by Crystal Page.

Co produced by Crystal Page and Adam
Greenfield.

Engineered by Adam Greenfield.

Production coordination by Tess Karesky

Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina.

Special thanks to the Prebys Foundation team.

The Stop and Talk theme song was created by
San Diego's own mister lyricalgroup.

Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at Prebis FDN dot org.

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