Thelma Virata de Castro: Expressing Yourself is a Powerful Thing

Episode Transcript
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Grant Oliphant (00:10):
Hey, Crystal.

Crystal Page (00:11):
Hi, Grant. How are you?

I am great. We're gonna be talking today to
Thelma DeCastro, who is a memberof San Diego's arts community.

Oh, I think I've heard of her. Is she part of Far
South Border North?

She is exactly far part part of Far South
Border North. It's a very hardproject to pronounce, but it's a
great project in terms ofbringing artists forward in the
community to express whatthey're seeing, living, and
feeling about San Diego, and Ilove these conversations, and I
particularly love theconversation that we have with

(00:44):
Thelma.

Yeah. I'm excited to hear what you what you choose
to explore with her. Is thereanything we should be looking
for as we jump into thisepisode?

Well, you know, she's a Filipino artist who's
based in San Diego. She grew up,as part of her Filipina
community in, Paradise Hills.

Oh, that's where Dan's from.

Yes. Yes. Our board chair. And she's just been
a lively part of the artscommunity in terms of being
present and doing art, and butalso at the same time being a
teacher. So I think what I wouldlisten for in this interview is,
you know, what are the themesthat come out in, from her
perspective as we talk about theprocess of doing art in San

(01:30):
Diego.
I think people are gonna loveit.

I cannot wait. I look forward to catching you on
the other side of this one.
I imagine it's gonna be a reallyvibrant and rich conversation.

I think so. And by the way, I think as people
think about what to focus on,focusing on not just the San
Diego angle, but what it's liketo appreciate the arts in
America in this moment, alsovaluable. And I think no matter
where you are, if you have anyconnection with community and
the arts, you're gonna love thisconversation.

I can't wait. Shall we dive in?

Let's do it. Thelma Virata de Castro, thank
you so much for being with us.

Thelma Virata de Castro (02:10):
Thank you for having me. This is very
exciting.

One of the ways we got to know you is through-
you're an artist and yourparticipation in the Far South
Border North project, and we'llbe talking more about that
later. But I I just wanna saythat one of the joys of funding
that program has been theartists that we've gotten to
meet through it and the artistrythat we've gotten to see, so I

(02:35):
really appreciate your beinghere to to share with us.

Thank you. Just an added benefit of
being part of that program wasmeeting the other artists and
getting to learn about theirwork too, so I'm fangirling over
their work.

Well, you know, I think one of the things that
people forget about San Diego iswe're actually blessed to have
an amazing individual artistcommunity, and anything we can
do to help elevate the profileof it, we're delighted to do,
and I think this is part of it.My very first question to you
was going to be about, what yourexperience growing up in San

(03:14):
Diego was like in terms ofshaping your wanting to be an
artist and your, you know, yourcreative pursuits. But you just
happened to mention right beforewe went on air that, that you
had something in common with DanYates, who was on a previous

(03:35):
episode talking about growing upin San Diego, and you mentioned
well, I'm gonna let you say whatyou had in common because I
think that's just sointeresting.

Is a point where I tell everyone to
listen to that episode,reference to that episode
because his experience was verydifferent from mine. He said he
identifies as a Caucasian man,and I'm a Filipinx woman. And
growing up in Paradise Hills, Ifelt so comfortable. It was a

(04:11):
diverse community, but my maincommunity was other Filipino,
immigrant families.

Right. Right.

And the stereotype is your dad's in the
navy and your mom is a nurse,and that was true for a lot of
us. And it just felt verycomfortable. And I went to
school at, Perry Elementary. Ijust walked to school, and it's
in the middle of navy housing.

Yeah.

So we were just surrounded by this
navy community. We went to thelittle, p x. We went to the
commissary. That was just ourlifestyle being connected to the
navy in that way. So I felt likeit was a very tight community.
And I went to Bell Junior High,which is also in the area, and
then I went to Morse HighSchool. And I was a nerd. I was

(05:08):
in the nerd community. So I feltprotected in that way. And but I
didn't even realize that Ineeded protection.
But this is going to sound verynaive, but we were so, separated
in the, like, slash gifted smartkid program, that I read in the

(05:29):
newspaper that there were gangsat Morse High School, and that
is how I learned that.

Experience, but you both grew up in Paradise
Hills, and you both went toMorse High School, and how did
how did growing up in thatenvironment help shape your
wanting to be an artist?

Well, I was very connected to the
Filipino community. I hadmentioned before how I'm a
direction follower when I gothere, and the word they used to
use is schoolgirl.
SO I was really into school, andso I did my assignments. And in,

(06:12):
San Diego Unified, there weremany opportunities to be a
creative person. There werecontests to enter, and I
remember submitting work forjust a little school publication
and getting published in it.Just opportunities like that can
really light someone up. And I'dlike that to continue for the

(06:35):
whole community. You know, weall have our 9 to 5. Well, not
all of us, but many of us havethese 9 to 5 jobs and our daily
existence. And we don't taketime to be creative. We're not
rewarded for being creative, butwe have this little itch inside
of us, and I would just love formore people to be able to be in

(06:57):
touch with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Before we leave the the subject
of of Dan's interview, You alsodescribed that interview as
touching and connecting withyour most recent play, and I
would love for you to share alittle bit about that, because
then we're gonna talk aboutplaywriting, and and your art

(07:21):
form and and what drives andmotivates it. But maybe a good
place to start is one where youhave strong feelings about it.

I am a strange artist in that the name
of my project was CultivatingJoy.

Yes.

And so what I chose to focus on for the
play I was writing as part ofthis project was to go the
opposite direction as much as Icould.
And so what I chose was Ithought, you know, what is the
biggest or one of the biggestgrief experiences that humans

(08:02):
can experience?
And the subject I chose was,when someone loses a child. And
I was asked that at one of thetalk backs after the play. They
said, why did you choose that?And, that's what I what I
shared, and I I learned that itresonated with people in the
community who had experiencedthat.

Yeah. And that's obviously what resonated for you
in the interview with Dan Yates.

Yes. We had that experience at my son's
high school. Where a student,lost his life due to suicide,
and I'm just talking with hisrelatives and noting from other
people who have lost theirchildren just their different

(08:54):
experiences and differentsupport from the community.

Yeah.

And so it's really important to be able
to talk about grief, to talkabout loss, because, like as Dan
noted, we all experience it.

Yeah. So how do you as an artist think about
exploring a very difficult themelike that? When you go into it,
I think a lot of people, maybeespecially in the context of a
title like Cultivating Joy,might say, you know, that's too
hard. That's too- how how do youas an artist think about getting

(09:31):
into that very difficultterritory, and what makes you
want to go there?

Well, the title of the play was where
we lay our sorrows down, andit's like, woah. This is gonna
be such a draw. I wanna see thisplay about grief. And like I
said, I'm somewhat of a strangeartist. Fortunately, I worked
with people who were willing togo there with me for the vision,

(10:00):
but we had puppets in the play.
A play about grief with puppets.And I worked with Asian Story
Theater, so we centered the playaround an Asian family, which
was very relatable for thecommunities where the
performances were, and I use alot of humor. Skipping subjects,

(10:20):
I also am a teaching artist AndI was just at Las Colinas last
night for a performance of, thewomen's plays that they had
written in a residency. I workwith the Old Globe as a teaching
artist for their communityvoices program, and they had

(10:43):
some really funny jokes abouttheir experience in jail. So
humor is a way to acknowledgethese things, these tough
things. It just makes us human.It builds a bridge to putting it
on the table.

You, you mentioned, and, being FilipinX
and growing up in a so did wasthere anything cultural in your
that informed how you thinkabout tackling subjects like
this?

Well, I think a lot of it has to do with
I'm the youngest child in myfamily.

So it's okay. Yeah.

And I feel like my parents were tired
by the time they got to me. Theywere like the usual stressed out
parents. I'm not gonna throw mysisters under the bus, but, you
know, they

But now's your opportunity.

They got to experience being parents
to teenage girls before I camealong, right? So, I had a lot of
freedom, and I got to do a lotof what I wanted to do. So, we
weren't what people mightstereotype as a Filipino family

(12:09):
where there's a lot ofrepression, although, you know,
different members of my familyhave different impressions. But
I just felt I could do what Iwanted to do, express what I
want to express, and have myfamily there to back me up.
Mhmm. I think that's a contractwithin some families, just this

(12:30):
support.

Yeah. Do you do you think, though, that, that
aside from being the youngest,the be the cultural component
being in the Philippinecommunity was important as part
of thinking about your yourthemes and your artistry today?

Thelma Virata de Castro: Absolutely. I had another (12:51):
undefined
project about domestic violencein the Filipino American
community that was called theFire in Me. Again, I worked with
Asian Story Theater for that,and we got support from the San
Diego Foundation through acreative catalyst grant, and we
used lumpia to comfort people.We had food there. Like, this

(13:16):
was a party.
We had Pandesal, and now let'swatch this play about domestic
violence. Woo hoo. Like, Iinterviewed people within the
community. I worked with alawyer named Anne Bautista who
worked with Access Inc, and she,advocated for these women. And
so we use the culture to make itfamiliar, but also to push a

(13:41):
little bit to talk about thesetough subjects.
Because, yes, it does happen inevery community, including ours.

I am I am struck, and we're early in this
interview, but I am struck byhow fearless you are in tackling
tough issues, and you and you doit, clearly with a kind of joy
in your own, you know, at leastin your in your consideration of
it. We have thought a lot as afoundation about the role of the

(14:15):
arts in promoting healing, andwe actually think that it's
really important for that. Givenyour exploration of really
challenging subjects, like we'vealready talked about grief, and
we've talked about domesticviolence. How do you see art as
contributing to healing?

I think healing is just what why we
live. I feel kind of bad thatI've had children in a way
because

Say more. Say more.

This world is really tough,
especially with climate change.I just wanna apologize. Like,
wow. Because, part of theCultivating Joy project was
connecting with nature as ahealing force.
So in my studies and readingother writers who connect with

(15:12):
nature, I've just learned moreabout the environment. But it's
really important to me to havehope. So in my bag right now, I
have a set of utensils that Igot from the summer reading
program through the public SanDiego Public Library. And I

(15:33):
don't always remember to usethem

Right.

Instead of getting the plastic, you
know, single use items that theyhave available at restaurants.
But I just have to do what'swithin my circle. So if I can
use items that promotesustainability, that will help.

Right.

If I share that lesson with others,
bring your own forks. Bring yourcontainers for, your doggy bags
at restaurants. It's just whatyou can do

Mhmm.

Within your circle. And there's a lot
of good going on Yeah. In thecommunities.

You know, I, I, one of the things that I think
is challenging for artists whotackle big issues is the
temptation yielding to thetemptation to become didactic.
You know, you you you begin toconcentrate so much on the
message, that, you know, thesocial message that you wanna

(16:41):
convey, that you forget thatreal people are on the receiving
end and they and the messagewon't connect with them if it's
received in that way. How do youthink about connecting these
very big issues that you'recarrying around in your head
with the importance of ofconnecting with your audience in

(17:02):
a way where they can receive it?

I love it because that's what artists
do. We live in metaphor. We seemetaphor. In the play I wrote
Where We Lay Our Sorrows Down,the woman who has lost both her
mother and her son, she goes toclear out her garden. And this

(17:26):
is where the puppets come in.
A lizard who she's afraid oflizards, but the lizard is like
represents her son. Somethingshe doesn't understand,
something that frightens her,but something that she's, you
know, come to love. So we have alizard puppet, and the lizard

(17:46):
puppet is being, manipulated bythe son, who we find out is
really a ghost. Ghost might notbe the right word, but a spirit.
So the lizard is something thatrepresents her grief.

Mhmm.

And it's not like we're saying, in
order to overcome your grief,you must do this or that, but
we're showing things, and peopleunderstand it at a different
level. Because many times peoplehave mentioned, like, in our

(18:27):
cultures, like, the Filipinoculture, in the, Latinx
cultures, when somebody dies,you're often visited by their
spirits in the form of theselittle animals, these little
creatures. Like, when my mompassed away, her sister also

(18:48):
passed away in the same month.And in the Philippines, they
saw, some white moths, and itthey were there. The sisters
were there.
Yeah. So I think that elementwas in my play, and so we looked
to nature. I nature's here.Like, we, as humans, we think

(19:09):
we're the ones running the show,but we're equals.
I don't even know if that's theright relationship, but nature
was here first, I think.

Well, we're part of it, and we forget that. Well,
I love that. I really appreciatethat answer because I think what
you pointed to is, you know, andthe lizard is a great maybe a
great symbol of this. It'syou've pointed to sort of the
presence of magic and mysticismand metaphor as a way of telling

(19:39):
the story, as opposed to, yes,lecturing people, which is and
so the the role of the artistthat you're articulating is to
is to deliver that, that magicand the mysticism and the
metaphor so people can hear thestory, which is a beautiful,
beautiful answer.
You mentioned your kids. Do theyare they artists? Are they old

(20:01):
enough to be artists?

I have a 16 year old and a 20 year old,
and they're both boys. So,again, it is just amazing to me
what you learn as a parent. Youcome in you have these
expectations. First of all, Iwas supposed to have girls, not
boys.

Mhmm.

And now I'm doing things I never ever
ever thought I would do. I'mwatching my child play football.
I still don't know what hisposition is exactly and the
rules. And my other son got abrand new truck, which he loves.

(20:45):
Well, it's not new, but new forhim.
He loves it, and he expects meto love it. So I'd I just
flabbergasted that I have toexpress my admiration for a
truck.

Life is humbling, isn't it?

Yes. But then, you know, I'm open.
Like, okay. There is this truckculture.
Here we go. Let's get into this.Like, why? Who are the people
who are so into their trucks? Idrive a Prius. But what's the

(21:22):
beauty of a truck? And what doesit mean if you drive a truck?
And what's a stereotype? And,like, what is that about?

Mhmm. So you've been learning through your
children.

Yes. Yeah.

Which happens for all of us, by the way.

They have different interests, but
I'm learning from them. But Ialso keep an open mind because
my youngest son, he goes with meto plays, and I I thought it was
over when they were born. Like,okay, I won't have a theater
buddy. Because even my husband,he won't go with me to plays.
It's not their thing. But myyoungest son has become his own
little theater critic.

Oh, that's great.

He's my buddy.

I love that you deal with that as you're a
playwright. That's it's so, it'sit's so interesting. There are,
many projects I could ask youabout. One I did wanna ask a
couple I wanna ask you about,though, one is your
workshopping, a play right nowcalled Never Be Poor, which

(22:23):
sounds like sound and verydifficult advice sometimes. So
can you talk a little bit aboutthis play?

Yes. I'm making faces because it is
time for me to get serious aboutthis. I need to contact some
people to work on it. So I havea grant from the William Male
Foundation, and they are sosupportive of San Diego artists.

(22:51):
There are not many grants outthere that are specifically for
San Diego artists, and theyprovide funding for a project of
your choice.
Many grants, expect you tofulfill a certain need, and this
is an open ended grant that,like, you make your proposal,

(23:13):
but there are a wide variety ofprojects that they funded. And
so I asked them to fund aworkshop of my play, which only
has about 20 pages right now, soI need to get on it. The title
came from my dad.

Mhmm.

He was telling me stories about growing
up in the Philippines, and it'sso heartbreaking how, the
economy really drove hischoices.

Mhmm.

And he talks about being hungry. You
know? Mhmm. Here I am, thislittle brat at Paradise Hills,
in Paradise Hills, going toschool, thinking I'm the queen
of the world, and I came fromthis man, who has, you know,
experienced such hardshipgrowing up, and that's why he
came here, for this opportunity.But at the end of his telling

(24:12):
his stories, you know, his moralwas never be poor.
So that struck me, and that'sthe title of this play. It's
about a Filipino family, andit's about navigating what your
family owes you. There arecertain obligations that we have

(24:35):
as family members, and how fardoes that go, and when can it
stop? Like, when is it beyondwhat is reasonable when it's,
like, not good for you to dothis?
So, for example, in the play,there are 2 elders. They are

(24:56):
brothers, and one of them has,committed a crime in the
Philippines. So the play movesback and forth in time. So this
is in the forties, and, theother brother becomes, like, an
indentured servant to the mayorto pay off that debt, so the

(25:20):
other brother won't go to jail.So that relationship is mirrored
in the present with a youngoceanographer who depends on her
cousin a lot to rescue her.
So I'm exploring whatobligations we have to each
other.

I love that. It is a that's a question that's
going to resonate for a lot ofpeople and a lot of families.

And getting back to trucks?

Okay. That is the best segue we've ever had on
this program. Yes. Okay. Gettingback to trucks.

Here's a, yeah, a weird connection.
Those elders are watching thepresent day action from their
auto body shop in the sky

Mhmm.

From which is, you know, the version
of the afterlife. I live on anarrow street, and our cars have
been hit quite a bit. So I'vegotten to learn about, repairing
cars, and I've gotten somequotes from these people working

(26:32):
in the auto body industry, whichI'm gonna put in the play. Like,
for example, I was asking howpeople should drive. Should you
drive defensively?
And one auto body shop managersaid, no. You should okay.
Nobody listen to me as this isnot driving advice. This is,
like, a metaphor. Okay?

(26:55):
He advised, you need to driveaggressively so you're in
control. He- this is notscientific.

Right.

This was just, like, his philosophy.
But for the characters, youknow, I can certainly use that

Right.

In my play.

Yeah.

And an recently, an auto body shop
person said to me, a car is notmeant to be put together back
again. When they're built,they're just built for that one
time. They're not builtexpecting, oh, your car's gonna
get bashed in, and we're gonnaneed to replace this side. And

(27:36):
so that's another, little piecethat I'm gonna work in. Like,
heck, as humans, how can we livethat way?
Like, you experience a hardship,and you can't be put together
again. Right. I don't know aboutyou, but I like to put things

(27:58):
together with duct tape. Ireuse. I try to hold on to
things as long as possible, sothat's gonna work itself into
the play too.

Yeah. That sounds like one of those
concepts that or or quotes. Youhave to find a place for it's
very bad news for trucks, worseworse news for humans when
applied to us. So powerful,powerful. You find inspiration
everywhere.

I do. It's like that's why I can't get
things done sometimes, becauseI'm just busy thinking about
things.

Yeah. Yeah. I, it's interesting to hear you
talk about your process becauseanother thing that you do is
lead the room to write sessionswith San Diego Writers Inc, at
the Valencia Park Malcolm XLibrary. I'm curious what
inspired you to take on thatrole on top of everything else,

(28:53):
and what sort of insights youprovide people through that
program?

Well, with the Cultivating Joy
program, I didn't want it to bea one and done. We're having
writing free writing workshopsin the community, and they're
done. Goodbye, and good luck.That is why I partnered with San
Diego Writers Ink, becauseKristen Fogel came to our final

(29:21):
writing sessions, and sheattended the readings. So we
were able to say, okay, writers.
Here's a great resource for you.Those of you writing poetry,
here are classes you can take.Those of you writing memoir,
here's a festival you canattend. So San Diego Writers Ink
is a great resource for thewriters in our community. And

(29:45):
this room to write program is away for the writers who met
during the cultivating joywriting workshops to be able to
get together again.
I also believe in sustainabilityfor myself. Mhmm. I do a lot of
volunteer work for programs I'vebeen involved in, and I know,

(30:10):
like, I should only take on whatI can handle. So this program,
it meets once a month, and it'sstarting in August.
And I'm going to ask forvolunteers to, show up and
facilitate when I can't. Becauseit's not just about me. This
isn't just my program. It's ourprogram.

(30:33):
So we're writers just supportingeach other.

Grant Oliphant: You're making it about community. (30:35):
undefined

Yeah. Yeah.

I love that.
You have modeled here somethingthat is true about your work
generally, which is that humoris a really important part of
it, and I'm curious how you usehumor, how you think about humor
in your playwriting or in youryour artistry generally, and and
then how you use it as ateaching tool.

I love humor because it allows you to
say things you wouldn't normallysay. It just it makes it easier
when for for tough things to besaid if you make it a little
funny and if you allow for thatbreak so that we can laugh about
it. Like yesterday at LasColinas, I made a mistake with

(31:25):
the title of our show. And so Ijust said, okay. I messed up
already and I just got up and Ihad take 2 again.
And so that gave everyone elsepermission. Like, you don't have
to be perfect. Let's just do itthe way we want to and enjoy
ourselves.

(31:48):
Yeah. And I'm not that great ofa joke teller either.
It's just that

But you don't have to.

Yeah. It's more just of a a situation
situational thing I do.

Well, you mentioned earlier that you, you
actually used humor to get intothese difficult subjects that
you have written about too. AndI'm I'm curious which is harder
to do as a writer. Is it harderfor you to write humor, or
harder for you to writedifficult emotion?

Oh, I have to be honest, and I can't
remember exactly oh, yes. Iremember now. I took a workshop.
It was at children's forchildren's writing. And my
colleague was Charlene Allen.
It was a San Diego Writers Inkclass. And she said, okay.

(32:42):
What's your strength? And thenshe also took that and said, are
there times when you use yourstrength as a crutch? And so
humor is a strength I have, andit's also my crutch.
So there are times in real lifewhere I ought to be a little

(33:03):
more serious, not make a joke?And also in my writing too.
Like, okay.
That's enough funny stuff. Let'ssay something that's that's not
that's more serious.

I think that is, I love that you have that self
awareness, and I appreciate thatyou share that. I I think all of
us have strengths that weoveruse, and and we've fallen
because they work for us, right,just like as you just said. And
I can see how it's important tofind balance in the work that
you're doing. You know, yourinner dialogue must be

(33:41):
fascinating as you go as you gothrough putting a work together.
One of the things that is veryapparent from your work, is that
you you really focus on deeplistening.
I mean, to capture the voicesthat you do, the experience that
you do, the way you, and and Ithink to write plays well, this

(34:05):
is sort of a a basic rule. Youhave to be able to listen and
appreciate and understand thecommunity you're describing, the
the characters that you'redescribing. How do you go about
that kind of deep listeningwork, or does it just come
naturally to you? Are youwriting what you've heard and
that's and it just pours out onthe page?

Thank you. I think that's a a really
big compliment to be a deeplistener, and I have been more
conscious about relating toplace. So I guess I'm going to
expand it from deep listening todeep noticing.

(34:47):
And you could get really stucksomewhere, which I have, and
it's turned into plays and otherprojects. Like, I've been stuck
at the San Diego Estuary for along time.
And I just I had spent some timethere during the pandemic, and I
just noticed, just the thingsaround me and especially nature.

(35:14):
It's so fun to go into a placewhere you're not expecting
nature and then to discoverwhere it's there, especially
with birds, since birds have thefreedom to, you know, move from
their environment to just beable to identify them and see
them in unexpected places isexciting.

How do you teach that to your students? Or do
you?

In the cultivating joy workshops, I
brought in models of people Iadmire. Mhmm. And, like, I
thought I was using, certainexamples, but then I discover
other writers.

Mhmm.

So my main writers that I cited, were
Ross Gay and Adrienne MareeBrown because they're both very
involved with relating to theearth and about community.
They're both really relatable.And then I expanded because I

(36:19):
learned about Rowan White. She'sa seed keeper.

Mhmm.

So she would write about, seeds and
nature. She's a native American.And she also wrote about grief
because, she lost her twinbrother. And there's just so
there are so many great writersout there. And, ironically,

(36:48):
social media is a place whereyou can get closer to writers
because, they're able to expressthemselves through photos that
they take and music that theyput with their photos.
It's it makes you feel closer tothem. So I follow a lot of
writers on Instagram.

Wow. I would not have guessed that answer, but
that is great, and it makessense, actually. It it really
makes a lot of sense.
You know, when, I feel like Ishould have asked you this
question a while ago, aboutcultivating joy, but, as you
were as you were putting thatproject together,

(37:28):
what was your big hope forcultivating joy?

Well, I feel really special as a writer.

Mhmm.

I think it's one of the greatest
feelings in the world to writewhat's in your heart and then to
have people appreciate it. Thatis just so lucky to have that
experience. And I wanna sharethat with other people. And it

(38:02):
worked because at the readings,I just thought everyone was a
genius.
Yeah. They were so funnybecause, like, some of them were
really nervous and intimidatedto share their work. One
participant even started cryingon the first day of a workshop

(38:27):
when, that person was about toshare. And that's just something
I need to remember as someonewho's pretty confident with
their writing and sharing. I'm atheater artist.
If, you know, you say, let's doan improv game, I'm down. Okay.
Whatever. But not everyone feelsthat way. Not everyone has that

(38:49):
confidence.

Mhmm.

But they could cultivate it. They
could grow that. Mhmm. And so Ijust want people to be able to
express themselves throughwriting. And I don't think
that's a very sexy thing, butit's a powerful thing.

I I wish everybody could see your smile
right now as you're as you'resaying that, because I, I do
think that I I just wanna put amarker in what you're saying
that the capacity of a person tobe able to express what's in
their heart is a joyful thingwhen they know how to do it, and

(39:31):
you're giving them the tools toknow how to do it.

Thank you. And the tools are easier
than you think, but it's takingthat step. Some people, they
just don't feel worthy to share.But that's what makes our world,
like, exciting and full. I wantthe people of Southeast San

(39:58):
Diego and Paradise Hills,Skyline Hills to be able to
share their experience.
It's important.

Yeah. I I wanna go back to a question that you,
answered a a a few minutes ago.Actually, I wanna go back to
your answer because your way ofanswering about you were talking
about being in the estuary for along period of time, and, your
answer conveyed something whichI think is true of your work as

(40:31):
well that there's sort of thespirituality around nature,
that's present. It it's beenpresent in this interview a few
times that, you feel deeplyconnected to nature, at almost a
or maybe at a spiritual level.And I'm I'm curious.
Is that something you also tryand teach students when you are

(40:54):
getting them to notice and beaware of the world? Is that
possible to convey? Becausethere's a kind of deep reverence
there that is I'm just wonderingif that can be learned.

I think so. And during the pandemic, I
got very woo woo.

Mhmm.

I had teachers.

You are not alone.

Tanya Prypadniewicz offered a tarot
journaling class, which I took.

Mhmm.

And I also practice creativity with
Sarah Greenman, and she's led mequite a a bit into woo woo. But
woo woo is not, it's somethingthat everyone can experience. It
doesn't have to be somethingthat only hippies do. It could
be part of your everyday life.For example, the moon.

(41:49):
I think it's just seeing thingsin metaphors. Every month, there
is this cycle, and the differentstages of the moon represent
different parts of that cycle.So that is a metaphor that other
people can follow in theirwriting. You begin a writing

(42:11):
project. That's a new moon.
You set your hopes, yourexpectations, and then the cycle
goes around to the full moonwhere you enjoy the product of
your writing. So I used a lot ofthose nature metaphors in the
cultivating joy workshops.

Do you find, I I I love the smile. It's a
mischievous smile when you'rementioning woo woo. It's almost
though as though you have toapologize for the things that
you're exploring. Do you feelyou have to? Do you think that
because I think so many thereason I ask is I just think so

(42:50):
many people have had their eyesopen to different ways of
seeing, and I think that is partof what an artist does.
And I'm just curious if you ifyou even you, as an artist, who
who has license to explore, thethe edges on all kinds of things

(43:11):
feel constrained in some way bythe reluctance other people have
to go there.

Well, I like to play with that Yeah.
Because there's that stereotypeof what being woo woo is with
the tarot cards and making lunareclipse water. But, also, it's
brave to just stop and look atthose things. Like, what does

(43:38):
that all mean, and why do peoplemake fun of it? So for example,
like, let's talk about tattoos.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Tattoos have becomemore popular. And, like, what
did tattoos mean in the past,and what do they mean now? I

(43:59):
don't have any tattoos, but Iknow people who have gotten
tattoos, and they're deeplymeaningful to them.
So what's great about some ofthe new freedoms, newer freedoms
we have now are people can takethings and make them their own.

(44:19):
I have a tattoo artist in one ofmy plays, and he or she, you
know, the character can beplayed by someone of any gender,
sketches a tattoo during theplay. And sometimes the
characters will go and talk tothat character, kinda like a

(44:40):
confessional. I just like tomake connections like that.
Tattoo can be a form of art.
Your art can be- it doesn't haveto be writing. Okay? I'm just an
advocate for writing. But I justlove for people to get into

(45:01):
their creativity, because Ithink that's how you live a
really full life.

I think that is a beautiful statement, and I and
I hope people will will take itto heart. How has your, I'm
curious to know how yourinvolvement with other with with
organizations in the arts likethe Old Globe or, Asian Story
Theater or Reason to Survive,how how that has influenced your

(45:30):
art as well, because you're notjust doing this as an
independent. You're working inconcert with others, and how
important has that been to youas part of an artistic
community? I think it's smart.Yeah.
I am one person, and

I have turned to organizations who know
what they're doing to help mewith my crazy ideas. I'd like to
talk about A Reason to SurviveArts, because I don't think

(46:00):
we've talked much about them.

Please.

They're an organization based in
National City that is a creativeyouth organization. They have
programs during the summer andafter school and even some in
school programs to develop youngartists. So arts is their

(46:25):
acronym. They were my hub for myfar south border north project,
which is like our homeroom, theplace that we went to if we
needed some guidance or forresources. And when we met
there, they gave us a tour oftheir space, and I walked

(46:45):
through their, their work room.
And later on at home, while Iwas washing the dishes, I
realized I could commission themto build puppets and a
soundscape for my play. So it isa really beautiful experience
because they did it. I wasn'tinvolved with working with the

(47:07):
young people who theycommissioned, but I conveyed my
vision and they fulfilled it.The teaching artists did a
brilliant job of expressingwhat, the responsibility was. So
they created, sounds that I laidout for them for that second

(47:29):
scene in the garden.
Like, this is like like it itshould be reminiscent of a car
crash because the young man inmy play who passed away died in
a car crash, but not, like,blatantly like a car crash. So
they took those subtleties intomind, and they built these
puppets that the actors used totell the story in that second

(47:55):
scene of the play. So I wouldlove to work with them again in
the future. They put the puppetson display for one of their
gallery shows. It was sobeautiful to see that continue.
Like, oh, those were the puppetsin the play. And some of the
students who built the puppetsand the soundscape, they went to

(48:19):
the play, and they got toparticipate in a talk back as
well.

Well, I you know, we could go on. I I could
I could do this all day. I don'tknow if you'd want to, but this
is just so fascinating to me,and I I really appreciate the
generosity of your sharing. Weshould talk about far south
border north for a moment andwhat your experience as an
artist in that initiative hasmeant to the work that you're

(48:47):
doing. How would you how wouldyou describe that?

I am just very grateful for the
opportunity to be part of thefar south border north cohort.
We were given grant money justto support us.
And then in addition, we got abudget for our projects.
So I felt very well compensatedfor the work that I was putting

(49:18):
into this project because let'snot forget that artists are
workers. It takes energy andresources, time to put together
these campaigns, and I hope thatthe community benefited. We've

(49:38):
turned in our final reports. Thesurveys have been done.
So I hope it was a very,productive, fruitful experience
for everyone. It certainly wasfor me because I was an artist
alongside the people whoparticipated in my writing
workshops. My project was myplay, and, like, I'm on the same

(50:02):
journey with them. Mhmm. Andit's continuing now with the
room to write, like, okay.
Next project. We had a a sayingthat I got from Adrienne Maree
Brown called, our most elegantnext step. Instead of following
them with a hammer saying,what's your goal? What are you

(50:23):
gonna do by the next class? Itwas, what is your most elegant
next step?

That's beautiful.

It is. I didn't make it up. And then we
have the silly acronym. It'smen's. What's your men's?
Yeah. And so someone's men'scould have been, I'm going to
go, write in nature for 5minutes.

Mhmm.

That's fine. And if you don't do it,
then you didn't do it. You know?We're not there to beat
ourselves up, beat each otherup. Like, you're in charge of
your journey, but men's is avery gentle next

step. Well, can I just say how much I appreciate
this opportunity to speak withyou? And I, this concept of
one's most elegant next step isone we can all use in life, by
the way, and I think that's a abeautiful takeaway. Thank you so
much for the work that you'redoing, and for sharing, I think

(51:26):
so generously, a perspectiveabout art from the perspective,
not of a person who has it allfigured out, but a fellow
traveler who's still doing thework. That's, I I think, such a
great characteristic, and you'vebeen very generous with your
sharing today.

Thank you so much, and thank you,
Prebys Foundation, forsupporting individual artists.
And every time I look around,there are, like, nonprofits that
I felt, oh, they got a grantfrom the Prebys Foundation, and
they got a grant. So thank youfor supporting these
organizations in the communitywho are doing really good work.

Thank you. Well, it's truly our honor. Thank you.

Wow. Well, thank you so much for that interview,
Grant. I think I took a bunch ofgems away starting with how she
uses humor as a tool to getthrough things.

Yeah. She really does. She embodies one of her
projects is called CultivatingJoy and she sort of embodies
that. She's very adept at usinghumor to bring light to subjects
that are very heavy. And in herart, she dares to explore
subjects that are a little hard,to to think about and to

(52:44):
process.
Part of the way she makes thataccessible for everybody is
through her humor and herability to laugh.

Yeah. And, when she was talking with you, what
made me laugh is when she talkedabout interacting with her sons,
like that intergenerational, youknow, mom, son, not
understanding each other. So itseems like there's even a humor
in her family relationships.

Yeah. Well, it just shows that artists are not
immune to to the to the to thefact that children wanna be
their own people, Right?Exactly. And see the world
differently. But I loved hersharing about that.
You know, one of the for me,there were so many powerful
themes in this interview. One ofthem was, just how she views art

(53:32):
as a healing force. That throughthe act of storytelling about
very difficult and tryingcircumstances including grief
and loss, we can make those,again, accessible for other
people. We can help peopleprocess the pain that they're
feeling, and and she tries tolift people up through her

(53:54):
heart. I found that to be verypowerful.

Yeah. I think, I guess sometimes when I hear and
think about healing in the work,it's, the humor is like the
Trojan horse to get us to thathealing, and so I think it's
very giving and heartfelt of herto wanna create that space
that's safe enough to go throughthat healing, but you're also
laughing. And and it seems likethat would be really good for a

(54:19):
community. So I appreciated thatpart of your conversation with
her.

I did too. You know, I was thinking as we were
talking about her identity andhow she's very much rooted in
her Filipino roots and growingup in a Filipino community. And
and she tells the story of thatcommunity, through her art. And

(54:46):
and yet makes it universal. Youknow this is I think the power
of great art is that it's alwaysvery specific and flavored with
the character of real life andreal people and yet the themes
that it draws out are real andalive and vibrant for everyone.

(55:08):
So, you know, when she's talkingabout domestic violence in her
community, you know, you couldbe you could you could view that
as distinct to her community butof course it's not. And the way
in which she draws that outallows other communities and
other people to see themselvesin the story. And I I think the

(55:30):
power of her art is just howit's rooted in both at the same
time.

Yeah. I think that really resonated with me as well
because it seems like itrequires that she's, like,
noticing and listening to thecommunity, the friends and the
family she relays she relatesto. Right? But then you're
right. That when we step backfrom that, it's like you can
apply to your own life.
So it's got that universality,but it also has, just nuances. I

(55:58):
feel like she's mirroring thingsthat we may not get to
experience, because we may ormay not be an insider to the
same community she's talkingabout. So I think it also kind
of just gives us a window intothat empathy and that human
connection, you know.

Right. Which, you know, we are we talk about
this a lot on this program andin other places. We're in this
really difficult cultural momentwhere there are so many
divisions that people talk aboutand focus on. And I think what
Thelma illustrates is the powerof art that acknowledges, you

(56:31):
know, who I am, where I comefrom, what my roots are, what my
identity is, what my life isabout, and and yet opens all of
that up for other people so thatwe can see each other. And I I
just think that is so importantin the times that we're living
in.
Art has always had that power,and it feels when we talk to

(56:55):
somebody like Thelma, it's morerelevant now than than probably
any other time that we've seen.

Yeah. I think that power what I'm hearing you say
is really that bridging of beingable to talk about these issues
and connect, and we know that'sin her work, but we also know
it's outside of the work. Right?She's bridging between all the
communities and organizationsshe works with, and so it's
kinda the double impact of howshe wants to be collaborative in
the world. And you're right, wedo need more of that in this

(57:24):
moment in time.

That was actually I'm so glad you
mentioned that because that wassomething that did really
resonate for me, and I wasthinking about how, you know so
many of us think about artistsas solo practitioners. You know,
they're they're the lonelygenius in the in the attic,
writing the great American novelor or doing the great painting.

(57:48):
And really in fact for her, ofcourse there is that time. But
but so much of her time is alsoin collaborating with other
organizations and bringingpeople together to to workshop
ideas and working with studentsto help them see the potential

(58:09):
in their own work and I, youknow I think there is so much
about the art itself that isbridging but the act of creating
it and being an artisticcommunity is part of that as
well.

Yeah. And I think the lessons even from the
process she goes through areapplicable whether it's
philanthropy or in a school.Right? Every guest we've had
this season, it's always aboutcollaboration and even the way
we work to to bring these thingstogether. So I think, for me,
it's also she's a really goodreminder of what we can put into

(58:42):
practice every day.

Yeah. Completely agree. So, since we're short on
time, give me one takeaway thatthat you felt really strongly
about at the end of this.

I just felt really strongly in the fact that she
decides to stand in her ownshoes as a Filipina mom with
boys, and she loves art. And sheyou know, just like this is her
identity, but she transcends toconnect with other people. I
don't know if that makescomplete sense. Okay.

It does. And I and it's so grounded and real
and that is who she is. So Ilove that. You know, I I my
takeaways were how important,art can be in community healing,
not just individual healing. Andthat's also part of the
collaboration and bridging thatyou were pointing to. And then,

(59:34):
maybe something that we startedwith, just the importance of
supporting local artists.
Why does it matter that there isa vibrant arts community in San
Diego? Well, it certainlymatters in terms of the big
shows and the spectacles and thecultural events and institutions
that we get to go to. But italso matters in terms of those

(59:55):
individual artists who areraising their voice and adding
to the rich mix that iscreativity in San Diego. We're
lucky to have it and I think weshould all wanna cultivate it.

Crystal Page (01:00:06):
Hear hear. Just a reminder that Thelma was a part
of the far south border northcollective, an effort that
Prebys funded. We're sograteful. They're at the end of
their year. But we'll includethe link in the notes to make
sure that folks have a chance tolook at all these collaborative
artists, but also artists thatwe want to be able to afford to
stay and live in thesecommunities.

Grant Oliphant (01:00:26):
Perfect. Let's end there. Pleasure as always.
This is a production of thePrebys Foundation hosted by
Grant Oliphant and co hosted byCrystal Page. The program is
coproduced by Crystal Page andAdam Greenfield, and it's

(01:00:47):
engineered by Adam Greenfield.
Production assistance isprovided by Tess Karesky. And
our new theme song is by misterLyrical Groove, a local San
Diego artist. Download episodesat your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at stop and talkpodcast.org. If you like this

(01:01:09):
show, and we really hope you do,the best way to support it is to
share, subscribe, and review ourpodcast. Thank you for your
support, your ideas, and most ofall, for listening.
This program has been recordedat The Voice of San Diego
Podcast Studio.

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