November 20, 2025 • 57 mins
Walking Shield has spent nearly four decades improving quality of life for Native communities across the United States—bridging sovereign tribal nations with philanthropy, federal agencies, and the U.S. military. Alongside the Walking Shield team, Executive Director, Dr. John Castillo, and Senior Fellow, Mariano Diaz help tribes build the capacity needed to secure federal funding, strengthen infrastructure, and advance true self-determination. Their work blends grassroots trust-building with systems-level strategy, supporting tribes on projects ranging from road repairs and water access to energy development, environmental co-management, and leadership planning.
This Episode:
What does true collaboration with tribal nations require?
Dr. John Castillo and Mariano Diaz highlight the deep assets that guide Native communities, including long-standing governance traditions, cultural and environmental knowledge, and a strong commitment to collective well-being. They share how Walking Shield helps tribes use these strengths to access federal resources, plan for long-term development, and steward land and water. They also discuss the systemic barriers tribes still face, such as underinvestment and complex federal requirements, and how capacity-building can make a meaningful difference.
Together with Grant, they explore San Diego’s uniquely rich tribal landscape, the growing promise of co-management of natural resources, and why trust, relationship-building, and listening first are essential for any partnership with Indian Country. At its heart, the conversation offers a long view of resilience and strategy, reminding us that when Native leadership is honored and communities have the tools to act on their priorities, progress becomes both possible and lasting.
Key Moments:
- [9:40] San Diego has the most tribes per capita and what that means for the region
- [14:02] The capacity gap: why many tribes can’t access federal funds designed for them
- [16:34] Everybody benefits: how the National Guard helped rebuild dangerous reservation roads
- [34:10] Co-management, water rights, and environmental stewardship
- [51:15] What partnership looks like when it works
Resources Mentioned:
- Walking Shield – Improving quality of life for Native communities since 1986
- Southern California Tribal Chairmen’s Association – Regional tribal leadership and coordination
- Prebys Foundation’s BRIDGE Initiative – Supporting organizations that expand community capacity
Take Action:
- Read and Learn More— Explore the history and present realities of San Diego’s tribal nations.
- Build Relationships — If you work in philanthropy, government, or community development, ask how you can learn directly from tribal leaders.
- Support Sovereignty — Advocate for funding systems that recognize tribal governments’ authority and needs.
- Visit and Listen — When invited, spend time on tribal lands to understand local priorities firsthand.
- Keep the Long View — Remember that partnership, persistence, and shared purpose can outlast political cycles.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Crystal Page (00:11):
Hi Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:13):
Crystal, so good to be with you.
Crystal Page (00:15):
Good to see you.
Grant Oliphant (00:16):
This is a pleasure. We had an interview
with Walking Shield. Do you wantto say a little bit about what
they do?
Crystal Page (00:23):
Well, I mean, I know that they are committed to
improving the lives of nativecommunities across the country.
And in particular, involvesworking with government, really
building out capacity for thosetribes.
Grant Oliphant (00:36):
They really bridge the worlds, or try to, of
the sovereign tribal nations andconnecting them with
philanthropy and with themilitary, as you said,
government, and trying to openup pathways of opportunity and
to get all of us to seedifferently what the opportunity
(00:57):
should be for people on triballands. So we spoke with Doctor.
John Castillo and Mariano Diaz,and we probably should just dive
in and let them speak forthemselves about the work, and
then we'll come back and wrapup.
Crystal Page (01:11):
Sounds good. Let's dive in.
Grant Oliphant (01:16):
Right, Doctor John Castillo and Mariano Diaz,
it is a delight to have you bothhere with me. Thank you for
joining me.
Mariano Diaz (01:24):
Thank you.
Dr. John Castillo (01:25):
Yes. Thank you.
Grant Oliphant (01:27):
Let's dive in by talking about, the mission of of
Walking Shield, what it's about,and what brought you each to
this work. And doctor Castillo,I'd like to start with you. How
did Walking Shield come intobeing? What is its mission, and
what drew you to it?
Dr. John Castillo (01:45):
Oh, sure. Walking Shield, was approached.
Phil Stevens, our founder PhilWalking Shield Stevens, our
founder, was approached by hisJesuits from the Red from the
Red Cloud Indian School, whichis on Pioneer Indian Reservation
in South Dakota to raise moneyto buy computers for the young
(02:06):
people there. And then as hecreated that, these Jesuits
said, why don't you he he isOglala, so he's from that area,
but he never been to Pine Ridgebecause he grew up in East LA.
They asked him, why did you cometo the reservation and see what
it's like?
And he went to Pine Ridge, sawhow poverty stricken it was, and
still is to a certain extent,very sad. It changed his whole
(02:29):
life. He came back. He talked tohis family, sold his business,
which was ultrasystems. Hehelped make the circuit board
for the Minutemen missileprogram, so he became pretty
wealthy and decided to go aheadand sell his business and lead
Walk and Shield for many yearsuntil his retirement about
(02:50):
twenty two years ago.
We were incorporated in 1986, sothat has been how it started.
Our mission is to improve thequality of life for our native
communities on and offreservations, which we have been
doing since 1986. We have a lotof services and programs,
(03:12):
received a lot of both nationaland local awards for our work.
We're a very small team wherewe're able to leverage large
resources. So we've madefortunately as a group, as a
team, we've made a bigdifference in Indian country.
Grant Oliphant (03:32):
So I wanna just come back to the question for
both of you to, answer, if youwould, about how you came into
this work and why it's importantfor you. So, doctor Castillo,
why don't we start with you?
Dr. John Castillo (03:47):
Sure. We got raised by our parents to be to
assist and work with thecommunity. So my sister was in
the police department for thirtyfour years. My brother is a
behavioral therapist inArkansas. My little sister my
little sister is a nurse.
(04:08):
So we're always communitydriven. And since we more or
grew up in Orange County and LosAngeles, there's a lot of native
people, particularly in LosAngeles. So we were able to
connect with our other nativegroups. And so once I got my
license, you know, in '16, Istarted going to powwows and
(04:31):
hanging out with the othernative people. And I ended up
going to UCLA and graduatingwith my master's and ended up
working at the Union Center inLos Angeles.
And then got promoted severaltimes until I ended up at the
Orange County Union Center backthen. It was another union
(04:51):
center. And then I becamedirector there that incorporated
both Los Angeles, Orange County,and part of Riverside in its
service area. So I think of myparents who are biggest folks
that influenced us, you know, tohelp our people.
Grant Oliphant (05:09):
Nice. And Mariano, what about for you?
Mariano Diaz (05:12):
Well, professionally, my background is
in comprehensive communitydevelopment, that I've done that
about forty years total. Andwhen I decided to leave National
LISC, I really wanted to be morefocused in my work, so I started
my own consulting firm. And justto really be specific of who and
(05:38):
why I would work in certaincommunities. A mutual friend
introduced me to Doctor Castilloand Walking Shield as an
organization.
And I really felt it wasprofessional and personal
alignment of what I wantedto do. And now I've been with
(05:59):
the organization seven years asa senior fellow.
Grant Oliphant (06:05):
Fantastic. Well, thank you both for that
background. I want to talk alittle bit about giving some
context to this conversation interms of San Diego. It is often
surprising to people that wehave the highest number of
tribes per capita in thecountry.
Mariano Diaz (06:25):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (06:26):
That we also have the largest number of
federally recognized tribes fora county in the country. And I'm
curious what that, you know,when you think about what that
means for San Diego, why is thatimportant? Can you break that
down for us a little bit?
Dr. John Castillo (06:46):
So they they've been there for a long
time, and, of course, many ofthem ended in on reservations
that are very rural. You know,that you know, there's one
reservation in San Diego nobodycan live on. It's all mountains
and stuff. So everybody's offreservation.
So it's a a lot of them have alack of water, you know, which
(07:10):
is a big issue in Indian countryand throughout The United States
and California, of course. So,yeah, those are a bit are
fortunate, of course, you know,with their casinos, but not
everybody has a casino. And Ithink about about half of them
have some and the other halfdon't. And, of course, we work
with the ones that have nothingbasically where one of the
(07:30):
reservations in San Diego, halfthat reservation doesn't even
have electricity, you know.That's a you would think that'd
be different in San Diego.
Right?
Grant Oliphant (07:39):
Right.
Dr. John Castillo (07:39):
Yeah. It's it's thought. But, yeah, that's
a it's very it's a very strongcommunity. And I think having
those many tribes together, it'sbeen a good thing. They have the
Southern California TribalChairmen's Association, which
has those 18 tribes and thetribes in Riverside and San
(08:01):
Bernardino.
And so it's it's great work, andit's nice to see a lot of tribes
together in one area. Marianoprobably added some more because
he's been working with us onthese tribes.
Grant Oliphant (08:17):
Mariano, you answer that or expand on that,
could you also talk a little bitabout why it matters that what
it means when we use the termsovereign nation to refer to
tribes?
Mariano Diaz (08:32):
Oh, absolutely. Well, lot of it got started when
I was at the San DiegoFoundation. One of my core
responsibilities was to make thefoundation more relevant to the
surrounding communities in thecounty and in the region. I
became aware of the number ofNative American tribes in the
(08:54):
county and, more specifically,the border region and that it
was a shared border. I mean,when you look at that, it became
very obvious and natural in themovement of people that, you
know, you would you woulduncover these core facts.
But what was surprising in that,you know, the Native American
(09:15):
community was as the originalpeople in this region of the
country, you know, had a lot toadd in terms of the flow of
people, resources, and moreimportantly the concept of
philanthropy development andcommunity development overall.
(09:36):
And there was one particularinitiative that was spawned by a
San Diego philanthropist aboutbringing the Olympics to the
border region. And then theconversation was, well who
should it include? And I thenintroduced to the foundation,
(09:56):
well, you really should look atthis more broadly in terms of
the original people who arethose that are already here, the
larger tribes that wereorganized and eager to
contribute contribute to theconcept of economic development,
you know, and shared resources.And that started a kind of a
path for me in understanding theconcept of sovereignty and
(10:22):
asking the questions, well, whyaren't we working more closely
with Native American communitiesgiven the number of communities
that we have here?
That's not reflected in thegrant making. It wasn't
reflected in the convening ofleadership. It wasn't reflected
in any of the outreachstrategies, not only by the
foundation, but anybody elsethat we were talking to. You
(10:44):
know, well, it's too difficult,you know, you know, we can't
make grants to nativecommunities. There was a lot of
ignorance on why we couldn'tstructurally link with with
these sovereign nations.
It wasn't rocket science tofigure out, well you're dealing
with a sovereign nation. There'sdifferent structures. There was
(11:06):
different organizationalleadership elements and to say
nothing of the absence of trust.You know these leaders have seen
us come and go. We only go therewhen we want something to you
know share data on health needson communities and then the
funding would arrive and theywould never see any of it.
(11:26):
So they they had justificationto not wanna work with any of
the leadership that waspromising larger community
development efforts.
Dr. John Castillo (11:36):
Yeah. We have, treaties to the federal
government.
Grant Oliphant (11:41):
Sure.
Dr. John Castillo (11:41):
That that's one of the reasons we have
sovereign nations. And, youknow, that's a a lot of that's
deteriorated as far as the issueof sovereignty by when it
Winston is the major Indian lawsthat were passed to take away
some of our jurisdiction of howwe are able to do with people
that do stuff on thereservation. So a lot of that
(12:05):
was taken away, so now we cancontrol maybe traffic and some
other minor stuff. It's calledthe Major Crimes Act. So
sovereignty has been attacked,you know, for over two hundred
and fifty years since itstarted, and it's kinda just
inched away pieces of that as itwent through.
And if you look at the federalsocial policy that's gone off
(12:26):
for two hundred and fifty years,it's a get rid of the Indians.
No. Let's help the Indians. No.This get rid so it's that
pendulum that goes back andforth.
Grant Oliphant (12:35):
Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo (12:35):
So, you know, it's been an interesting
journey.
Grant Oliphant (12:40):
Doctor Castillo, on that on that score, have
Walking Shield has worked to tryand increase the flow of federal
money to to the to the tribesand to make more federal
resources available for for whathappens there. For example,
(13:06):
you've tried to get Departmentof Defense money to to to engage
with with infrastructure needsin the community. And and yet,
as you just described, you'reyou're you're fighting a
constant battle around the wayin which these so called
(13:26):
sovereign nations are treated bythe federal government as it
either embraces them or pullsaway. And we certainly seem to
be in a moment where thattension is coming surging to the
fore again, which I wanna talkabout a little bit. But I I
would love for you to reflectfor a moment on what it is like
(13:50):
to try and attract more federalresources to the work of the
sovereign nations and how youmake that case after two hundred
and fifty years of trying tomake that case?
Dr. John Castillo (14:04):
Yeah. Well, one of the biggest things is
capacity building. Mhmm. Thesetribes don't have the staff, the
person power, the skill set togo after federal grants.
Grant Oliphant (14:17):
Yeah.
Dr. John Castillo (14:17):
So you have you know, those larger tribes,
you know, invest them. They havethat the staff and the skill set
to go after these federalgrants. When We start talking
about some of the smaller poortribes poor tribes in San Diego.
They don't have that capacity.And I'll give you an example.
I was just at a tribal summit upin Northern California an
(14:38):
enterprise rancheria. Andyoung lady a from Hoopa came up
and was talking to the energycompanies and the state funders
about applying for dollars fromthem. And she pointed out
there's a 109 reservationsrancherias in California, and
only 20 of them can apply forthese funds that you have. And
the reason why is, as I kind ofmentioned right now, is these
(15:01):
smaller tribes, the other 80plus tribes that didn't have
that cap they don't have thecapacity to go after those
dollars. They don't have thestaff.
So one of the things that wework really hard is to build the
capacities of these smaller,these rural tribes, to be able
to go after those dollars andcents. We've been involved with
the Department of Defense forsince 1995, doing infrastructure
(15:24):
and health care on reservations.We've had two or three other
reservations that have a lot ofbenefits from the National Guard
or the Army or the Navy Seabeesor our friends from the Air
Force. Again, building thatcapacity to make sure that you
have all your T's crossed, yourI's dotted because the military
is very structured. It's verypaper driven.
(15:46):
So we help them with thepaperwork and getting ready to
actually meet the requirementsthat these military components
need as well as applying forfederal resources that they
haven't applied for in the pastbecause of lack of assistance.
Grant Oliphant (16:02):
I'd love to stay on that one for a second because
I think it is a brilliantexample of your success. And I'm
and I wonder if you could sharea story with us about how that
has worked, where you haveworked with the US military to
bring resources to the tablethat otherwise communities might
(16:24):
not be able to access. And I'mthinking the example I I sort of
know myself is the cleanup ofSaint Isabel. And I maybe that's
the example you wanna talk aboutor not. But is there a story you
can share with us to illustratehow how effective this has been?
Dr. John Castillo (16:42):
Yeah. The I wanna give you the example with
Mesa Grande. I don't if you'vebeen to Mesa Grande. They're
they're kind of in a in a pit.They're in a fire trap.
They have about 30 homes. Way onthe bottom is this Blackstar
Canyon and this is least aSutherland Dam. So the roads are
(17:03):
dirt. There's drop offs there.So we worked with the National
Guard for two years.
They came in and brought about40 troops to rebuild those roads
to go into Sutherland Dam andmake them safe and widen them so
that people weren't, you know,actually going off the cliff,
which is a good thing, ofcourse. And we also did a lot of
(17:26):
work on soil erosion, you know,rip wraps, covert type stuff to
make roads last. And This isactually an effort that was
unique in a way because weactually had an MOU with the
County Of San Diego, The U. S.Forestry and with the Mesa
Grande tribe.
So we are able to put togetherthese three components for the
(17:48):
benefit of each group. And thetribe, of course, had right
away. And it is a scary road,really scary road. Took one of
my friends, one of ourcolleagues, Marvin, you just
heard a little earlier. We tookhim down the road.
And it is really scary. He isdark skinned. So we got down to
the road, was really light. Hegot really light skinned. First
(18:10):
question to the tribal secretaryis there is another way out of
this place?
Is how scary it is.
Grant Oliphant (18:17):
An intimidating road.
Dr. John Castillo (18:18):
It is intimidating. That is a big
example of what can be done.
Grant Oliphant (18:24):
And it is so fascinating to me given the
complicated history of coursebetween the US military and and,
the tribes, and the sovereignnations. But you're making it
work. That's actually whyyou're, one of the participants
in the Preface Foundation's,bridge initiative, which is
(18:48):
supporting nonprofits and, andand that are uniquely positioned
to help communities build theircapacity to access more
resources and to assert more oftheir own leadership. Can you
talk a little bit about this,both of you, how how you see
(19:09):
yourselves helping communitiesto develop this capacity to talk
on their own behalf, to advocateon their own behalf so that
you're not perpetually having todo it for them.
Dr. John Castillo (19:25):
We take a train to trainer type role to do
exactly what he said, to build acapacity to get them at a level
where they do not need usanymore, maybe just to call us
up once in a while or justremind them, hey, by the way,
IRT requested to do September30. We have gotten many tribes
to that point. It does take timebecause each tribe is different.
(19:50):
It does take time. Am probablyfamiliar with a lot of tribes go
through changes in tribalgovernment, tribal leadership.
Some have elections every twoyears or four years. There's one
tribe in San Diego's electionevery year. That's for all the
council people. So that makes itdifficult. It's not staggered.
(20:10):
Yeah. So we work with triballeadership. And that is the
biggest thing. Think SantaYsabel as you mentioned earlier
is probably one of the ones thatwe have worked with for many
years that have gone to acapacity where they are really
good about writing grants. Arejust now building their capacity
to engage in the militaryprograms that can provide
(20:32):
additional support,infrastructure and healthcare.
There are more Native Americansin the military based on the
population than any otherminority in The United States.
So you have a lot of NativeAmericans in the military. I
knew that a long time ago but Iwas at the Pentagon meeting with
one of the generals and he kindof mentioned that to me. And I
(20:55):
go, yeah, you're right. Andthat's very true.
There's a lot of Indian peoplein the armed forces. So, yeah,
we get to the train to trainer.I know Mariano can add more
because we do these multi yearplans that if it's okay, he can
share about the multiyear plansthat we work with.
Grant Oliphant (21:11):
Yeah, Mariano, if you would.
Mariano Diaz (21:13):
Sure. Absolutely. One of the things that you
brought up, Grant, was the thenotion of sovereignty. And when
we talk about capacity buildingand leadership development as
the nonprofit sector deliverysystem to increase
organizational performance,whether it's health, education,
whatever that might be. Byliteral definition, how you work
(21:37):
with sovereign nations inleadership development and
capacity building is that thenotion of a nonprofit structure
is very different.
Many of the tribal nations arenot set up as nonprofits. So you
have to really understand themechanisms of how financial
resources could be delivered onon native country and specific
(22:05):
tribes with the expectation thatgrant compliance, delivery,
reporting is gonna be similar.And if you don't do that
background, you're just gonnastep in cement because there's
just not that naturalunderstanding of just
philanthropy that's organizedand why you would pursue grants.
(22:29):
And if we look at nativecountry, the delivery system for
financial resources is federalgrants and you have really
specific departments that youhave to understand and work with
if you are going to besuccessful in securing a federal
grant. And the requirements forthe different departments that
(22:50):
deliver USDA monies orDepartment of Defense
contracting, whatever theopportunity might be, is that
qualification for those grantsrequires a lot of readiness at
the organizational level to evencompete for the funding.
(23:12):
Many of these contracts requireland use plans, environmental
impact studies, water deliveryand management systems to even
fill out the application. And sothat's what John was pointing
out. Our approach has to be in acollaborative fashion to work
with our tribal partners wherethey are and without any
(23:36):
judgment about what they need tobe, how they need to be it. We
don't even talk about leadershipdevelopment because they're
elected officials responsiblefor the development and
well-being of all members. Sotheir concept that kind of work
is shaped by the federaldelivery system that requires
(23:59):
them to have set up committeesof governance and community
engagement, the kinds of thingsthat is reported by the federal
government in terms of use ofits monies.
And it's usually the largerfoundations or tribes, they
understand that and can havestaff in place to actually
(24:20):
collect information to submit anapplication. The organization,
the tribes that we're workingwith are just not staffed to
even fill out an application.And so the capacity building
approach that we've taken is todevelop multi year planning
(24:41):
agendas that are health relatedso that the elected officials
and their members determine whatthe needs of reservation are
that is outside the federalfunding box. So that when we
look at the issues ofinfrastructure, why they don't
have water, the questions thatI've learned from John is to
(25:05):
ask, well, what do you needwater for? Well, to grow food,
to drink, to deliver to the newhousing.
And these are very basicquestions in terms of the
planning. Well, if it's water,then how do we go from what you
need to actually puttingtogether the planning that
allows you to decide what isthat learning path to arrive at
(25:30):
and what is the data that youneed to then compete for
funding. So that is a largerslice of what we deal with in
the sense that you know many ofour tribal leaders, know that
agenda changes every two yearsthey have an election. So we
(25:51):
have to then start a lot of youhave to start that cycle again.
So our multi year plans thatdeveloped by Walking Shield
helps to inform the newlyelected council that comes in
that the core issues are stillwater, land management,
affordable housing, and thosethings shouldn't change every
(26:12):
two years.
So that allows Walking Shield toidentify the planning, the
funding source we want to applyfor. We do the proposal writing
if needed, to get them ready tosubmit a competitive application
for funding and manage thatgrant if it's received to how to
(26:32):
be compliance and perform theproject to actually build the
infrastructure within the timeperiod that the federal
government calls for.
Grant Oliphant (26:42):
I think I I really appreciate that
description because it it itnicely captures the complexity
of the literal landscape thatyou're dealing with and that you
are working to help besuccessful. I'm also mindful of
(27:04):
how rich it is with ironiesgiven the past experience you've
had. And and so for example, I'mI, you know, I I I wasn't in the
room, but I know from hearingfrom you and others afterward
that there was this moment in adiscussion among the bridge
(27:24):
initiative cohort about what washappening on the national scene.
And doctor Castillo, I think itmight have been you who who
said, you know, we've we've beendealing with this back and forth
in terms of of support, nonsupport with the federal
(27:45):
government for two hundred andfifty years. It's not exactly
new.
And it's sort of set inperspective for everybody in the
room that there's a lot ofhistory here that you're you're
working to overcome. At the sametime, as you're trying to
reflect that with integrityacross the landscape of all the
(28:08):
tribes that you work with, youare having to face the reality
of a government that may decideor administration that may
decide, at least has talkedabout taking away the special
status of sovereign nations andof imperiling the nonprofit
(28:31):
status of organizations thatserve specific populations. You
know, writ broadly, that getsdismissed in the whole DEI
context, but this is really thepart of the ancient foundational
text of the founding of TheUnited States Of America and and
(28:52):
who was here before the countrycame to exist. And so how are
you navigating that verycomplicated terrain and thinking
about it in the context of theday to day work that you're
doing with your with your thethe tribal entities that you're
(29:12):
working with on buildingcapacity, which feels like
absolutely essential work andalmost impossible to think about
in the context of a of anonslaught like I just described.
So can you just talk about thatfor with us for a moment about
how you're processing it?
Dr. John Castillo (29:30):
Sure. We've already faced that in the
nineteen fifties. There's atermination policy. The federal
government instituted toterminate federal recognition of
tribes. Unfortunately, we had togo to courts. You know a lot of
the tribes had to go to courtsand reinstate their federal
recognition. But by terminatingwhat you just said, these
(29:52):
treaties or the relationship, nolonger they were required to
provide any federal funds.Right? So know, tribes that had
a very good industry, say, in intimber no longer had that great
industry or those dealing withsalmon, you know, those that had
developed economic developmenton the reservations. So those
(30:15):
funding orders dried.
So but you're right. It's achallenge, you know, as far as
nonprofits, you know, for us,for instance, is diversifying
our our funding sources so thatwe're not dependent on the
federal government. You know,it's a that's been some of the
things Walkinshewlo for the lasttwenty years has, done quite a
(30:37):
bit because we recognize thedilemma if you depend on one,
financial source. In this case,unfortunately, our native people
are depending on the federalgovernment resources.
Grant Oliphant (30:50):
Mariano, anything to add there?
Mariano Diaz (30:52):
Oh, yeah. I mean, that is the is the key. And I
think John pointed out to you, Imean, before the new federal
administration, we've alwaysbeen struggling with trying to
bring organized philanthropy tounderstand that there are people
in our backyard that are wellpositioned to work for a mutual
(31:15):
and in benefiting all segmentsof our community. Part of what
the discussions that we'rehaving with our tribal
leadership is something thatthey are now putting into play,
is the concept of co management.That the availability of water,
(31:35):
the protection of naturalresources, the need for
affordable housing, a lot ofintegrative possibilities with
local governments that surroundnative reservations.
And I'll point out that if youknow some of our larger partners
the majority of resources spentin quote community development
(32:00):
is on litigation. Know suingover water rights, over
sovereignty land rights, andwinning now in the courts
because of just how treatieshave been enforced or not
enforced. So leadership is nowasking the question, well, we
have a shortage of water andit's driven by climate change
(32:22):
and, you know, moving from foodproduction to vineyards because
we all believe that everybodyneeds a better quality Merlot,
you know, but the the fertilizerused to grow grapes is is
polluting the commonality of thewater source that farmers
downstream use that's poisoningthe fish.
(32:43):
So the concept of co managementon tribal lands is how to look
at people, land, assets to thenwork with local government to
say how do we approach thislocally and jointly so that not
only does it provide for all ofus, but there's potential
revenue sources to be developed.The Kurok tribe in terms of
(33:07):
wildfires, you know, the movetoward native management of land
in terms of regular burns thatcounter the wildfire situations
that we have.
Well, they're training now localfire departments in those
concepts, and they're nowtraining local native youth to
(33:27):
become firefighters, not onlyfor the reservation, but local
fire departments in a sharedresource of how we avoid burning
down the whole region. So the comanagement concept very, very
important, gets us off thelitigation path potentially, you
(33:49):
know, because fish need water,and you need water for grapes. I
mean, what is the
Grant Oliphant (33:53):
Is is that is that is that possible? I'm sorry
to interrupt, Mariano, but I I'mjust curious. Is that it it
makes all the sense in theworld. But I'm wondering, does
it make sense in or is itpossible in the in the context
of the federal environment thatwe're now that you now find
(34:17):
yourselves operating in. Youknow, I'm I'm thinking about
how, many of the projects thatyou've talked about over the
years have had to do with cleanenergy and sustainability and
comanagement of water is anotherbeautiful example.
And and and those, it would seemto me, are suddenly encountering
(34:39):
a very hostile policyenvironment. Does it matter?
Does do you forge ahead? How doyou how do you think about how
to how to to work on becauseit's a good idea what you're
describing. I'm just curious howyou continue to win on it in an
(34:59):
environment where there's suchhostility toward it.
Mariano Diaz (35:03):
Well, I'll take a shot and then John can can add
his perspective just of the leapfrom the leadership position.
Yeah. But I think that thatthere's tremendous hope in that
concept because failure torespond to our natural resources
and their availability and use,I mean, that is a common factor
(35:27):
that impacts us all. And thefailure to do that is failure
for everyone. And the mostironic, thing that I've learned
in this work with Walking Shieldis to when we reach out to
environmental funders orprograms that support
environmental financing beforethis new administration, we
(35:48):
could not get a meeting, which Ithought was highly ironic ironic
working with native people whooriginated, you know, the
concept of mother nature and itsprotection and its what and its
need.
And what we were finding at thelocal level is that we weren't
(36:08):
using the environmental languagethat would allow us an entry
into, you know, a funding cycle,right? And then we came up
against the ignorance of programofficers not knowing that there
were that many tribes in SanDiego they don't drive out
(36:29):
there, they don't go out thereunless they're going to go to
Julian to pick apples. I meanyou know their limitation didn't
include the regionalunderstanding of who lives here.
And if you really wanted to knowabout environmental protection
and the importance of sharedwater and its usage, then let me
introduce you. So that conceptof co management really has the
(36:53):
basis of an organizing principlethat it allows our young people
and those who care about theseissues to then learn about how
people are really practicing itand how the joint knowledge
exchange is a tremendous valueexperientially to then depend
against public policies that goagainst it.
Grant Oliphant (37:17):
Yeah. John, what about you? I mean, I'd I'd
there's so much in Mariano'sanswer that gets at the idea of
power sharing and power buildingand the the fact that some of
these challenges have existedfor a long time as you've
pointed out a number of times,and that, it still requires a
(37:38):
set of solutions that will workregardless and the solutions
kind of speak for themselves. Sothere's a lot there, but what do
you see as the avenue of of ofmaking these ideas prosper at a
time when it seems like they'rethey're heading into stiff
(37:59):
headwinds?
Dr. John Castillo (38:00):
Well, one of the things is we've been around
for thousands of years. So we'vebeen around for a long, long
time, and we're we're peoplethink that this stuff has
happened all all these years ofgenocide or for our native
people that we'd be gone or youknow, a lot of tribes are gone
now or and and so forth, butstill over 500 tribes left. And
(38:22):
so we know after all this thatwe had to make the adjustments.
We had to be strategic. We needto use resources that are
available to us.
And one of the things we'velearned is that we need to work
together in a cohesive waythere's always strength in
numbers. You know? So we'velearned that, you know, the San
(38:44):
for instance, San Luis Rey, theythey had to litigate for their
rights to the San Luis ReyRiver. That was five tribes that
worked together to get thatright. You know?
Because that was their theirtreaty right, and they had to go
to like Mariano said, a lot ofthese things had to go to
litigation. So now they'reworking not just with their the
tribes themselves, but withlocal government around there,
(39:05):
you know, about this waterresource. So that co management
can work. It's not the mosteasiest thing to do. But we have
to be strategic, find uniqueanswers, and move forward.
We just we just can't give up.We've been here forever, you
know, and so it's no time togive up. It's time to be strong
and move forward.
Grant Oliphant (39:27):
What I'm I'm curious, you know, picking up
again on something that Marianosaid. I am struck by I know this
to be true that the that thatoftentimes what you were dealing
with in approachingphilanthropy, let's set aside
the federal government for amoment, was that the the
(39:52):
sovereign the tribes werespeaking one language and
philanthropy had a differentlanguage. And and so, and the
expectation was that if you getwere to ask somebody for money,
you had to speak their language.I think I think part of what
you've tried to do even as youhelp organ as you help the the
(40:15):
the folks you're working withbecome better at working the
systems that exist, you're alsotrying to help the systems that
exist better understand thelanguage of the sovereign
nations. And so and to stopbeing so expectant about having
(40:36):
them conform to our model.
Do you feel you've beensuccessful in terms of that? Are
you making progress?
Dr. John Castillo (40:45):
We just had a just to give you an example.
Yesterday, we just had a meetingup here with 10 foundations
doing exactly what you justsaid, having them understand how
we as indigenous people, youknow, how we can draw from from,
you know, their resources andhow they can fit into our tribal
structures. That's exactly aconversation we had yesterday
(41:06):
about 10 foundations. So there'sprogress. I think having Mariano
who has, like you said, fortyyears of experience in
philanthropy, that really helpsour tribes, especially the ones
in San Diego we're working withto understand that language,
(41:26):
whatever that language you wantto call it, the tribal
structures and trying to mergeit some way so they have a shot
in of learning in the Indianways.
And and and we just with one ofthe groups, I asked him one of
the tribal groups was actuallyLos Coyotes. I asked him, would
you be interested if I can bringone of the foundations to your
(41:49):
reservation? Because I thinkthat's extremely important is
that the foundation folks reallysee what's going on on their
reservation. They can hear fromme and Mariano and see some
pictures and stuff, But it suremakes a difference when somebody
actually goes over there andsees what's the roads look like,
see how the housing looks like,see the poverty that exists in
San Diego County and some ofthese reservations. Yeah.
(42:12):
That really makes a difference.So we're working right now on on
getting some of thesefoundations, why don't you come
out and visit? You know? And weask for some permission from the
tribal government first. Wedon't want to just start
inviting people to come over.
Grant Oliphant (42:22):
Show up. Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo (42:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So I I think, you know, we
talking to just a tad earlier istaking a different strategic
approach, coming up with newways to break that gap. And so
we want to work together. I knowprobably pointed out in the past
(42:44):
and so little money inphilanthropy has gone to, native
organizations, native tribes inthe history of philanthropy.
Right.
Mariano Diaz (42:53):
I have to say something and and and I'll I'll
own up to something that interms of the work that we do, I
think one of the things that isso important in the language
development that seems to alwaysreinvent itself, well, now we're
calling it this, so you gottanow shift over there and, you
know, learn the definitions.And, you know, that, there
(43:16):
really is a level of urgencygrant to this work. You know,
it's not like communitydevelopment in Los Angeles,
where you already have existinginfrastructure, you already have
housing. The question is, how doyou improve it and build more?
And I think to John's point, youknow, taking people into, you
know, your backyard whereliterally, you know, you had an
(43:39):
infrastructure project that, youknow, built a new sewer system,
you know, in a nativeneighborhood.
And it's wonderful. But they ranout of money to connect the
plumbing system from theindividual homes to the new
sewer system, and it's literally10 feet away. Know? And before
(44:03):
the new sewer sewer system andwater delivery that was built at
huge cost, the people who livedin these new homes had to drink
water from the backyard hose.Now, and we go there and that
was, the project was completedsix years ago, we go there and
they're still getting theirwater from that backyard hose.
(44:26):
The question that's got to belooked at and the urgency and I
think the attitude that's got tocome with that is you would
never tolerate that in yourneighbourhood. You would never
accept those conditions for youand your children. And here this
family, you know, does thisevery day. And the indignity
(44:51):
that comes with using thebackyard hose to collect your
water. I mean, it's just so overthe top with me that I just
wanna tear my hair out.
And it really is difficult tothen sit at the table and with a
group of funders that haveresources and have staff to
(45:12):
actually finance their ownlearning however you want to
approach it, right? You know, doa study or just hire a native
American to drive you up, youknow, 10 miles. Is the
difficulty of the modeling andthe language.
Grant Oliphant (45:27):
Such a great example.
Dr. John Castillo (45:28):
Yeah, want to get into that. So it's a happy
story too, right? I was meetingwith, I go to, know, health
services are responsible forwater delivery on a reservation.
So I was meeting in Marylandwith the higher ups, you know,
with the way high up people. Itold him, you know, hey, I'm on
the grassroots level.
I'm telling you a story rightnow what's going on in this
(45:48):
reservation. I couldn't believethey were they were hearing
because they're at this policylevel and they're not not
getting that information, youknow. So I told them all about
it. And so after about anotheryear, they were able to send
more resources to finish thosepipes and stuff to these homes.
But it took a while before,like, answer, they ran out of
(46:09):
funds a while back.
It was sad. And we didn't learnabout it because sometimes, even
though we're trusted by thesereservations, sometimes it takes
a little while to share a littlebit more information because you
know, they don't want to beembarrassed or or whatever the
the whatever you want to callit. So, I asked to begin this
trust and relationship with usand say, you know, is another
one over here that we need totell you about. So, as we learn,
(46:32):
we can make those efforts at ahigher level. I have not been to
Washington DC since COVID and Iprobably not going go for a
couple more years.
But, you know, we work withcongress on both sides. I work I
work with in house services. Iwork with the Pentagon to keep
them informed of what our needsare in Indian country so they
(46:52):
can hear from the grassrootlevel.
Grant Oliphant (46:56):
So let me ask you. We're running out of time.
Let's see if we can do alightning round of a couple of
questions because I I wanna getthese in. Just can you reflect
for a second about whatpartnership among government and
philanthropy and tribal nationslooks like when it's working
(47:19):
well? What does that look like?
Dr. John Castillo (47:23):
It looks like success. You know? Everybody
win.
Grant Oliphant (47:27):
Okay. How about an interim step? But
Dr. John Castillo (47:31):
Well, you know, it it takes people around
to come around the table for acommon a common goal. And if you
have a win win situation, that'swhen it works the best. So for
the military, when they come inand work with us, they're
getting the training and gettingready for deployment readiness,
which we hope they never have tobe deployed. It's also an extra
retention tool tool for them. Itkeeps them at the reserves
(47:53):
signing back up.
It's excellent, for the tribes.They now have new roads or water
wells or bridges or homes orelectrical lines. Mean, it keeps
going on and on. And of course,so the tribe wins and then
Walking Shield, whose mission isto improve the quality of life
(48:14):
for our reservations and offreservation communities, we all
win. So if you can get apartnership that we all win,
it's so much better than tryingto fight with each other over
something.
You know?
Mariano Diaz (48:24):
But, you know, that's Right. That's a good
question, Grant, in that we havetribal partners that are trying
to organize around those comanagement concepts. But there's
a tribe in Northern Californiathat's one of our tribal
partners that we try to visit asoften as we can. And their
approach was to organize theirassets around alternative energy
(48:49):
Mhmm. And build the casino andthe housing and all the
infrastructure with with the endgoal of developing alternative
energy resources and reinvest inthe reservation to generate the
employment, to generate theinfrastructure, to look at all
(49:10):
revenues that come in to thereservation that doesn't go to
its members.
It's reinvested, you know, inthe reservation, and it's the
alternative energy developmentthat is financing the co
management opportunities. Well,now you have a situation where
the tribe's success in energymanagement and revenue
(49:34):
production is that they now arethe primary partner for fire
management in the region. Theybuilt a heliport on the
reservation to support firemanagement suppression and
recovery. They have purchasedfire equipment that exceeds any
(49:59):
ability of local government tohave, And it's a shared now
resources. They're trainingtheir firefighters on the new
cook and ladder they bought.
So the concept of success, itreally is in this co management.
It doesn't always start in afriendly situation, it does
(50:20):
create friendships localgovernment has now to work with
them because the tribe is nowselling stored electricity to
downtown.
Dr. John Castillo (50:32):
Right.
Mariano Diaz (50:32):
So so everybody love What about
Grant Oliphant (50:34):
what I love about that example is it's sort
of the the process itselfbrought out the shared interest
that maybe one of the one of thepartners didn't want to
acknowledge existed at the frontend, which I think is often true
of partnerships. Okay. Quickly,because we're running out of
time. I I I think in this era,it's important to end on a on a
(50:57):
note of hope, although I found alot to be hopeful about in this
conversation. But I would loveto know what you're you talk
about to give other people hopeor that gives you hope that you
would wanna share with ouraudience right now.
Dr. John Castillo (51:15):
For for us, for Walking Shield, we've
working together, you hadfoundations and government.
We've made a a major difference,but it it's a partnership. It's
a collaboration. So our ourstrength is working with a lot
of different partners to make adifference. And so that we all
look good.
Right? And the people in thecommunity that really needs the
(51:38):
help, whether it be eyeglassesor a safe road to drive on,
everybody gets a pat on theback. So we made a difference,
it's a collaborative process.Just can't do it by ourselves.
Grant Oliphant (51:53):
Great. And Mariano, what about you?
Mariano Diaz (51:56):
Walking Shield is a service organization. And what
I mean by that is that we workwith our tribal partners to
serve their interests, theirself determination plans based
on what they wanna do, separatefrom a funding source or what is
it that you wanna achieve,what's the plan, And how do we
do that? And working withoutside partners, the ones that
(52:19):
we're trying to develop, is thesame approach. How can we be of
service to you to achieve youreconomic development goals that
could include native Americancommunities and reservations
that has land, that has peoplein which they're looking to
improve their quality of life?What is the match points that we
(52:40):
can identify and act on?
Grant Oliphant (52:44):
Beautiful. I you know, what I what I heard in
those very quick answers waspartnership and and service. And
it's it's interesting that as asource of hope is probably the
most enduring source we couldask for, you know, asking saying
that you find it in how peoplework together and how they serve
each other. I just wanna thankyou both for for taking the time
(53:08):
to sit with me today and talkabout this. It has been a rich
conversation that we easilycould have gone another hour on,
but unfortunately, we don't haveit.
So just thank you both and thankyou more importantly for the
extraordinary work you're doing.
Dr. John Castillo (53:25):
Thank you, Grant. Thank you, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (53:33):
All right, Crystal, what'd you think?
Crystal Page (53:35):
I think it was very deep, a lot to unpack.
Grant Oliphant (53:38):
Yeah, Well, there's a lot of very serious
material to cover. And for me, Iwas struck by how many times the
concept of sovereignty came upand the complex ways of viewing
that and how important thatunderstanding is for anybody
working with the notion of selfdetermination among people. So I
(54:03):
thought that was powerful.
Crystal Page (54:04):
Yeah, it stood out to me because I think we hear
those words, self determinationall the time, right? But it
seems like those partnershipswith government, with the
military really allow the tribesthen to really shape what they
want the course of their futureto look like.
Grant Oliphant (54:20):
I was struck too by the long view. So the
perspective that the challengesthat we're facing in the moment
are in many respects old andfamiliar to tribal nations and
so less inclined to panic aboutit in the moment and to think
about issues like environmentalstewardship and co management of
(54:44):
the land as long term challengesand goals. And to think about
partnerships and bridgingdivides as long term challenges
and goals. And recognizing, andsoberingly so, to hear that,
yeah, there have been plenty ofreversals over the course of
hundreds of years and howimportant it is to keep moving
(55:07):
toward the goal anyway.
Crystal Page (55:09):
Yeah, I think that the wisdom of Doctor. Castillo,
as I listened and reflected,he's right. That's not just for
the tribes, that's for a lot ofour history. You have to hold
that long view. You talk aboutthat even in philanthropy
playing that long game, havingthe long view of things.
And so I imagine the amount ofpatience it takes, but also the
(55:29):
persistence to make sure yourfolks are ready when that moment
strikes where you can move yourgoals forward.
Dr. John Castillo (55:35):
I
Crystal Page (55:36):
just found really impressive and something I'm
going to sit with.
Grant Oliphant (55:39):
Yeah, a lot to sit with on this. And I think
probably one of the mostimportant lessons on top of that
is how we should listen ratherthan speak so often that it is
important to meet people wherethey are and to recognize
different traditions and toaccept that as part of how we
(56:01):
engage with other human beings.Really a lot of wisdom in terms
of how philanthropy shouldoperate and how we would hope
government would as well. Soconversation in terms of some
very important themes.
Crystal Page (56:17):
Agreed. I'm so grateful that they made
themselves available to us forthis interview and thanks for
unpacking it with me.
Grant Oliphant (56:26):
Yeah, likewise. Thank you.
Mariano Diaz (56:27):
Appreciate it.
Crystal Page (56:28):
Thanks everybody.
Grant Oliphant (56:35):
This is a production of the Prebis
Foundation.
Crystal Page (56:39):
Hosted by Grant Oliphant.
Grant Oliphant (56:41):
Co hosted by Crystal Page.
Crystal Page (56:44):
Co produced by Crystal Page and Adam
Greenfield.
Grant Oliphant (56:48):
Engineered by Adam Greenfield.
Crystal Page (56:51):
Production coordination by Tess Kureski.
Grant Oliphant (56:54):
Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina.
Crystal Page (56:58):
Special thanks to the Previse Foundation team.
Grant Oliphant (57:01):
The Stop and Talk theme song was created by
San Diego's own mister LyricalGroove.
Crystal Page (57:07):
Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at previsefdn.org.
Hi Grant.
Grant Oliphant (00:13):
Crystal, so good to be with you.
Crystal Page (00:15):
Good to see you.
Grant Oliphant (00:16):
This is a pleasure. We had an interview
with Walking Shield. Do you wantto say a little bit about what
they do?
Crystal Page (00:23):
Well, I mean, I know that they are committed to
improving the lives of nativecommunities across the country.
And in particular, involvesworking with government, really
building out capacity for thosetribes.
Grant Oliphant (00:36):
They really bridge the worlds, or try to, of
the sovereign tribal nations andconnecting them with
philanthropy and with themilitary, as you said,
government, and trying to openup pathways of opportunity and
to get all of us to seedifferently what the opportunity
(00:57):
should be for people on triballands. So we spoke with Doctor.
John Castillo and Mariano Diaz,and we probably should just dive
in and let them speak forthemselves about the work, and
then we'll come back and wrapup.
Crystal Page (01:11):
Sounds good. Let's dive in.
Grant Oliphant (01:16):
Right, Doctor John Castillo and Mariano Diaz,
it is a delight to have you bothhere with me. Thank you for
joining me.
Mariano Diaz (01:24):
Thank you.
Dr. John Castillo (01:25):
Yes. Thank you.
Grant Oliphant (01:27):
Let's dive in by talking about, the mission of of
Walking Shield, what it's about,and what brought you each to
this work. And doctor Castillo,I'd like to start with you. How
did Walking Shield come intobeing? What is its mission, and
what drew you to it?
Dr. John Castillo (01:45):
Oh, sure. Walking Shield, was approached.
Phil Stevens, our founder PhilWalking Shield Stevens, our
founder, was approached by hisJesuits from the Red from the
Red Cloud Indian School, whichis on Pioneer Indian Reservation
in South Dakota to raise moneyto buy computers for the young
(02:06):
people there. And then as hecreated that, these Jesuits
said, why don't you he he isOglala, so he's from that area,
but he never been to Pine Ridgebecause he grew up in East LA.
They asked him, why did you cometo the reservation and see what
it's like?
And he went to Pine Ridge, sawhow poverty stricken it was, and
still is to a certain extent,very sad. It changed his whole
(02:29):
life. He came back. He talked tohis family, sold his business,
which was ultrasystems. Hehelped make the circuit board
for the Minutemen missileprogram, so he became pretty
wealthy and decided to go aheadand sell his business and lead
Walk and Shield for many yearsuntil his retirement about
(02:50):
twenty two years ago.
We were incorporated in 1986, sothat has been how it started.
Our mission is to improve thequality of life for our native
communities on and offreservations, which we have been
doing since 1986. We have a lotof services and programs,
(03:12):
received a lot of both nationaland local awards for our work.
We're a very small team wherewe're able to leverage large
resources. So we've madefortunately as a group, as a
team, we've made a bigdifference in Indian country.
Grant Oliphant (03:32):
So I wanna just come back to the question for
both of you to, answer, if youwould, about how you came into
this work and why it's importantfor you. So, doctor Castillo,
why don't we start with you?
Dr. John Castillo (03:47):
Sure. We got raised by our parents to be to
assist and work with thecommunity. So my sister was in
the police department for thirtyfour years. My brother is a
behavioral therapist inArkansas. My little sister my
little sister is a nurse.
(04:08):
So we're always communitydriven. And since we more or
grew up in Orange County and LosAngeles, there's a lot of native
people, particularly in LosAngeles. So we were able to
connect with our other nativegroups. And so once I got my
license, you know, in '16, Istarted going to powwows and
(04:31):
hanging out with the othernative people. And I ended up
going to UCLA and graduatingwith my master's and ended up
working at the Union Center inLos Angeles.
And then got promoted severaltimes until I ended up at the
Orange County Union Center backthen. It was another union
(04:51):
center. And then I becamedirector there that incorporated
both Los Angeles, Orange County,and part of Riverside in its
service area. So I think of myparents who are biggest folks
that influenced us, you know, tohelp our people.
Grant Oliphant (05:09):
Nice. And Mariano, what about for you?
Mariano Diaz (05:12):
Well, professionally, my background is
in comprehensive communitydevelopment, that I've done that
about forty years total. Andwhen I decided to leave National
LISC, I really wanted to be morefocused in my work, so I started
my own consulting firm. And justto really be specific of who and
(05:38):
why I would work in certaincommunities. A mutual friend
introduced me to Doctor Castilloand Walking Shield as an
organization.
And I really felt it wasprofessional and personal
alignment of what I wantedto do. And now I've been with
(05:59):
the organization seven years asa senior fellow.
Grant Oliphant (06:05):
Fantastic. Well, thank you both for that
background. I want to talk alittle bit about giving some
context to this conversation interms of San Diego. It is often
surprising to people that wehave the highest number of
tribes per capita in thecountry.
Mariano Diaz (06:25):
Yes.
Grant Oliphant (06:26):
That we also have the largest number of
federally recognized tribes fora county in the country. And I'm
curious what that, you know,when you think about what that
means for San Diego, why is thatimportant? Can you break that
down for us a little bit?
Dr. John Castillo (06:46):
So they they've been there for a long
time, and, of course, many ofthem ended in on reservations
that are very rural. You know,that you know, there's one
reservation in San Diego nobodycan live on. It's all mountains
and stuff. So everybody's offreservation.
So it's a a lot of them have alack of water, you know, which
(07:10):
is a big issue in Indian countryand throughout The United States
and California, of course. So,yeah, those are a bit are
fortunate, of course, you know,with their casinos, but not
everybody has a casino. And Ithink about about half of them
have some and the other halfdon't. And, of course, we work
with the ones that have nothingbasically where one of the
(07:30):
reservations in San Diego, halfthat reservation doesn't even
have electricity, you know.That's a you would think that'd
be different in San Diego.
Right?
Grant Oliphant (07:39):
Right.
Dr. John Castillo (07:39):
Yeah. It's it's thought. But, yeah, that's
a it's very it's a very strongcommunity. And I think having
those many tribes together, it'sbeen a good thing. They have the
Southern California TribalChairmen's Association, which
has those 18 tribes and thetribes in Riverside and San
(08:01):
Bernardino.
And so it's it's great work, andit's nice to see a lot of tribes
together in one area. Marianoprobably added some more because
he's been working with us onthese tribes.
Grant Oliphant (08:17):
Mariano, you answer that or expand on that,
could you also talk a little bitabout why it matters that what
it means when we use the termsovereign nation to refer to
tribes?
Mariano Diaz (08:32):
Oh, absolutely. Well, lot of it got started when
I was at the San DiegoFoundation. One of my core
responsibilities was to make thefoundation more relevant to the
surrounding communities in thecounty and in the region. I
became aware of the number ofNative American tribes in the
(08:54):
county and, more specifically,the border region and that it
was a shared border. I mean,when you look at that, it became
very obvious and natural in themovement of people that, you
know, you would you woulduncover these core facts.
But what was surprising in that,you know, the Native American
(09:15):
community was as the originalpeople in this region of the
country, you know, had a lot toadd in terms of the flow of
people, resources, and moreimportantly the concept of
philanthropy development andcommunity development overall.
(09:36):
And there was one particularinitiative that was spawned by a
San Diego philanthropist aboutbringing the Olympics to the
border region. And then theconversation was, well who
should it include? And I thenintroduced to the foundation,
(09:56):
well, you really should look atthis more broadly in terms of
the original people who arethose that are already here, the
larger tribes that wereorganized and eager to
contribute contribute to theconcept of economic development,
you know, and shared resources.And that started a kind of a
path for me in understanding theconcept of sovereignty and
(10:22):
asking the questions, well, whyaren't we working more closely
with Native American communitiesgiven the number of communities
that we have here?
That's not reflected in thegrant making. It wasn't
reflected in the convening ofleadership. It wasn't reflected
in any of the outreachstrategies, not only by the
foundation, but anybody elsethat we were talking to. You
(10:44):
know, well, it's too difficult,you know, you know, we can't
make grants to nativecommunities. There was a lot of
ignorance on why we couldn'tstructurally link with with
these sovereign nations.
It wasn't rocket science tofigure out, well you're dealing
with a sovereign nation. There'sdifferent structures. There was
(11:06):
different organizationalleadership elements and to say
nothing of the absence of trust.You know these leaders have seen
us come and go. We only go therewhen we want something to you
know share data on health needson communities and then the
funding would arrive and theywould never see any of it.
(11:26):
So they they had justificationto not wanna work with any of
the leadership that waspromising larger community
development efforts.
Dr. John Castillo (11:36):
Yeah. We have, treaties to the federal
government.
Grant Oliphant (11:41):
Sure.
Dr. John Castillo (11:41):
That that's one of the reasons we have
sovereign nations. And, youknow, that's a a lot of that's
deteriorated as far as the issueof sovereignty by when it
Winston is the major Indian lawsthat were passed to take away
some of our jurisdiction of howwe are able to do with people
that do stuff on thereservation. So a lot of that
(12:05):
was taken away, so now we cancontrol maybe traffic and some
other minor stuff. It's calledthe Major Crimes Act. So
sovereignty has been attacked,you know, for over two hundred
and fifty years since itstarted, and it's kinda just
inched away pieces of that as itwent through.
And if you look at the federalsocial policy that's gone off
(12:26):
for two hundred and fifty years,it's a get rid of the Indians.
No. Let's help the Indians. No.This get rid so it's that
pendulum that goes back andforth.
Grant Oliphant (12:35):
Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo (12:35):
So, you know, it's been an interesting
journey.
Grant Oliphant (12:40):
Doctor Castillo, on that on that score, have
Walking Shield has worked to tryand increase the flow of federal
money to to the to the tribesand to make more federal
resources available for for whathappens there. For example,
(13:06):
you've tried to get Departmentof Defense money to to to engage
with with infrastructure needsin the community. And and yet,
as you just described, you'reyou're you're fighting a
constant battle around the wayin which these so called
(13:26):
sovereign nations are treated bythe federal government as it
either embraces them or pullsaway. And we certainly seem to
be in a moment where thattension is coming surging to the
fore again, which I wanna talkabout a little bit. But I I
would love for you to reflectfor a moment on what it is like
(13:50):
to try and attract more federalresources to the work of the
sovereign nations and how youmake that case after two hundred
and fifty years of trying tomake that case?
Dr. John Castillo (14:04):
Yeah. Well, one of the biggest things is
capacity building. Mhmm. Thesetribes don't have the staff, the
person power, the skill set togo after federal grants.
Grant Oliphant (14:17):
Yeah.
Dr. John Castillo (14:17):
So you have you know, those larger tribes,
you know, invest them. They havethat the staff and the skill set
to go after these federalgrants. When We start talking
about some of the smaller poortribes poor tribes in San Diego.
They don't have that capacity.And I'll give you an example.
I was just at a tribal summit upin Northern California an
(14:38):
enterprise rancheria. Andyoung lady a from Hoopa came up
and was talking to the energycompanies and the state funders
about applying for dollars fromthem. And she pointed out
there's a 109 reservationsrancherias in California, and
only 20 of them can apply forthese funds that you have. And
the reason why is, as I kind ofmentioned right now, is these
(15:01):
smaller tribes, the other 80plus tribes that didn't have
that cap they don't have thecapacity to go after those
dollars. They don't have thestaff.
So one of the things that wework really hard is to build the
capacities of these smaller,these rural tribes, to be able
to go after those dollars andcents. We've been involved with
the Department of Defense forsince 1995, doing infrastructure
(15:24):
and health care on reservations.We've had two or three other
reservations that have a lot ofbenefits from the National Guard
or the Army or the Navy Seabeesor our friends from the Air
Force. Again, building thatcapacity to make sure that you
have all your T's crossed, yourI's dotted because the military
is very structured. It's verypaper driven.
(15:46):
So we help them with thepaperwork and getting ready to
actually meet the requirementsthat these military components
need as well as applying forfederal resources that they
haven't applied for in the pastbecause of lack of assistance.
Grant Oliphant (16:02):
I'd love to stay on that one for a second because
I think it is a brilliantexample of your success. And I'm
and I wonder if you could sharea story with us about how that
has worked, where you haveworked with the US military to
bring resources to the tablethat otherwise communities might
(16:24):
not be able to access. And I'mthinking the example I I sort of
know myself is the cleanup ofSaint Isabel. And I maybe that's
the example you wanna talk aboutor not. But is there a story you
can share with us to illustratehow how effective this has been?
Dr. John Castillo (16:42):
Yeah. The I wanna give you the example with
Mesa Grande. I don't if you'vebeen to Mesa Grande. They're
they're kind of in a in a pit.They're in a fire trap.
They have about 30 homes. Way onthe bottom is this Blackstar
Canyon and this is least aSutherland Dam. So the roads are
(17:03):
dirt. There's drop offs there.So we worked with the National
Guard for two years.
They came in and brought about40 troops to rebuild those roads
to go into Sutherland Dam andmake them safe and widen them so
that people weren't, you know,actually going off the cliff,
which is a good thing, ofcourse. And we also did a lot of
(17:26):
work on soil erosion, you know,rip wraps, covert type stuff to
make roads last. And This isactually an effort that was
unique in a way because weactually had an MOU with the
County Of San Diego, The U. S.Forestry and with the Mesa
Grande tribe.
So we are able to put togetherthese three components for the
(17:48):
benefit of each group. And thetribe, of course, had right
away. And it is a scary road,really scary road. Took one of
my friends, one of ourcolleagues, Marvin, you just
heard a little earlier. We tookhim down the road.
And it is really scary. He isdark skinned. So we got down to
the road, was really light. Hegot really light skinned. First
(18:10):
question to the tribal secretaryis there is another way out of
this place?
Is how scary it is.
Grant Oliphant (18:17):
An intimidating road.
Dr. John Castillo (18:18):
It is intimidating. That is a big
example of what can be done.
Grant Oliphant (18:24):
And it is so fascinating to me given the
complicated history of coursebetween the US military and and,
the tribes, and the sovereignnations. But you're making it
work. That's actually whyyou're, one of the participants
in the Preface Foundation's,bridge initiative, which is
(18:48):
supporting nonprofits and, andand that are uniquely positioned
to help communities build theircapacity to access more
resources and to assert more oftheir own leadership. Can you
talk a little bit about this,both of you, how how you see
(19:09):
yourselves helping communitiesto develop this capacity to talk
on their own behalf, to advocateon their own behalf so that
you're not perpetually having todo it for them.
Dr. John Castillo (19:25):
We take a train to trainer type role to do
exactly what he said, to build acapacity to get them at a level
where they do not need usanymore, maybe just to call us
up once in a while or justremind them, hey, by the way,
IRT requested to do September30. We have gotten many tribes
to that point. It does take timebecause each tribe is different.
(19:50):
It does take time. Am probablyfamiliar with a lot of tribes go
through changes in tribalgovernment, tribal leadership.
Some have elections every twoyears or four years. There's one
tribe in San Diego's electionevery year. That's for all the
council people. So that makes itdifficult. It's not staggered.
(20:10):
Yeah. So we work with triballeadership. And that is the
biggest thing. Think SantaYsabel as you mentioned earlier
is probably one of the ones thatwe have worked with for many
years that have gone to acapacity where they are really
good about writing grants. Arejust now building their capacity
to engage in the militaryprograms that can provide
(20:32):
additional support,infrastructure and healthcare.
There are more Native Americansin the military based on the
population than any otherminority in The United States.
So you have a lot of NativeAmericans in the military. I
knew that a long time ago but Iwas at the Pentagon meeting with
one of the generals and he kindof mentioned that to me. And I
(20:55):
go, yeah, you're right. Andthat's very true.
There's a lot of Indian peoplein the armed forces. So, yeah,
we get to the train to trainer.I know Mariano can add more
because we do these multi yearplans that if it's okay, he can
share about the multiyear plansthat we work with.
Grant Oliphant (21:11):
Yeah, Mariano, if you would.
Mariano Diaz (21:13):
Sure. Absolutely. One of the things that you
brought up, Grant, was the thenotion of sovereignty. And when
we talk about capacity buildingand leadership development as
the nonprofit sector deliverysystem to increase
organizational performance,whether it's health, education,
whatever that might be. Byliteral definition, how you work
(21:37):
with sovereign nations inleadership development and
capacity building is that thenotion of a nonprofit structure
is very different.
Many of the tribal nations arenot set up as nonprofits. So you
have to really understand themechanisms of how financial
resources could be delivered onon native country and specific
(22:05):
tribes with the expectation thatgrant compliance, delivery,
reporting is gonna be similar.And if you don't do that
background, you're just gonnastep in cement because there's
just not that naturalunderstanding of just
philanthropy that's organizedand why you would pursue grants.
(22:29):
And if we look at nativecountry, the delivery system for
financial resources is federalgrants and you have really
specific departments that youhave to understand and work with
if you are going to besuccessful in securing a federal
grant. And the requirements forthe different departments that
(22:50):
deliver USDA monies orDepartment of Defense
contracting, whatever theopportunity might be, is that
qualification for those grantsrequires a lot of readiness at
the organizational level to evencompete for the funding.
(23:12):
Many of these contracts requireland use plans, environmental
impact studies, water deliveryand management systems to even
fill out the application. And sothat's what John was pointing
out. Our approach has to be in acollaborative fashion to work
with our tribal partners wherethey are and without any
(23:36):
judgment about what they need tobe, how they need to be it. We
don't even talk about leadershipdevelopment because they're
elected officials responsiblefor the development and
well-being of all members. Sotheir concept that kind of work
is shaped by the federaldelivery system that requires
(23:59):
them to have set up committeesof governance and community
engagement, the kinds of thingsthat is reported by the federal
government in terms of use ofits monies.
And it's usually the largerfoundations or tribes, they
understand that and can havestaff in place to actually
(24:20):
collect information to submit anapplication. The organization,
the tribes that we're workingwith are just not staffed to
even fill out an application.And so the capacity building
approach that we've taken is todevelop multi year planning
(24:41):
agendas that are health relatedso that the elected officials
and their members determine whatthe needs of reservation are
that is outside the federalfunding box. So that when we
look at the issues ofinfrastructure, why they don't
have water, the questions thatI've learned from John is to
(25:05):
ask, well, what do you needwater for? Well, to grow food,
to drink, to deliver to the newhousing.
And these are very basicquestions in terms of the
planning. Well, if it's water,then how do we go from what you
need to actually puttingtogether the planning that
allows you to decide what isthat learning path to arrive at
(25:30):
and what is the data that youneed to then compete for
funding. So that is a largerslice of what we deal with in
the sense that you know many ofour tribal leaders, know that
agenda changes every two yearsthey have an election. So we
(25:51):
have to then start a lot of youhave to start that cycle again.
So our multi year plans thatdeveloped by Walking Shield
helps to inform the newlyelected council that comes in
that the core issues are stillwater, land management,
affordable housing, and thosethings shouldn't change every
(26:12):
two years.
So that allows Walking Shield toidentify the planning, the
funding source we want to applyfor. We do the proposal writing
if needed, to get them ready tosubmit a competitive application
for funding and manage thatgrant if it's received to how to
(26:32):
be compliance and perform theproject to actually build the
infrastructure within the timeperiod that the federal
government calls for.
Grant Oliphant (26:42):
I think I I really appreciate that
description because it it itnicely captures the complexity
of the literal landscape thatyou're dealing with and that you
are working to help besuccessful. I'm also mindful of
(27:04):
how rich it is with ironiesgiven the past experience you've
had. And and so for example, I'mI, you know, I I I wasn't in the
room, but I know from hearingfrom you and others afterward
that there was this moment in adiscussion among the bridge
(27:24):
initiative cohort about what washappening on the national scene.
And doctor Castillo, I think itmight have been you who who
said, you know, we've we've beendealing with this back and forth
in terms of of support, nonsupport with the federal
(27:45):
government for two hundred andfifty years. It's not exactly
new.
And it's sort of set inperspective for everybody in the
room that there's a lot ofhistory here that you're you're
working to overcome. At the sametime, as you're trying to
reflect that with integrityacross the landscape of all the
(28:08):
tribes that you work with, youare having to face the reality
of a government that may decideor administration that may
decide, at least has talkedabout taking away the special
status of sovereign nations andof imperiling the nonprofit
(28:31):
status of organizations thatserve specific populations. You
know, writ broadly, that getsdismissed in the whole DEI
context, but this is really thepart of the ancient foundational
text of the founding of TheUnited States Of America and and
(28:52):
who was here before the countrycame to exist. And so how are
you navigating that verycomplicated terrain and thinking
about it in the context of theday to day work that you're
doing with your with your thethe tribal entities that you're
(29:12):
working with on buildingcapacity, which feels like
absolutely essential work andalmost impossible to think about
in the context of a of anonslaught like I just described.
So can you just talk about thatfor with us for a moment about
how you're processing it?
Dr. John Castillo (29:30):
Sure. We've already faced that in the
nineteen fifties. There's atermination policy. The federal
government instituted toterminate federal recognition of
tribes. Unfortunately, we had togo to courts. You know a lot of
the tribes had to go to courtsand reinstate their federal
recognition. But by terminatingwhat you just said, these
(29:52):
treaties or the relationship, nolonger they were required to
provide any federal funds.Right? So know, tribes that had
a very good industry, say, in intimber no longer had that great
industry or those dealing withsalmon, you know, those that had
developed economic developmenton the reservations. So those
(30:15):
funding orders dried.
So but you're right. It's achallenge, you know, as far as
nonprofits, you know, for us,for instance, is diversifying
our our funding sources so thatwe're not dependent on the
federal government. You know,it's a that's been some of the
things Walkinshewlo for the lasttwenty years has, done quite a
(30:37):
bit because we recognize thedilemma if you depend on one,
financial source. In this case,unfortunately, our native people
are depending on the federalgovernment resources.
Grant Oliphant (30:50):
Mariano, anything to add there?
Mariano Diaz (30:52):
Oh, yeah. I mean, that is the is the key. And I
think John pointed out to you, Imean, before the new federal
administration, we've alwaysbeen struggling with trying to
bring organized philanthropy tounderstand that there are people
in our backyard that are wellpositioned to work for a mutual
(31:15):
and in benefiting all segmentsof our community. Part of what
the discussions that we'rehaving with our tribal
leadership is something thatthey are now putting into play,
is the concept of co management.That the availability of water,
(31:35):
the protection of naturalresources, the need for
affordable housing, a lot ofintegrative possibilities with
local governments that surroundnative reservations.
And I'll point out that if youknow some of our larger partners
the majority of resources spentin quote community development
(32:00):
is on litigation. Know suingover water rights, over
sovereignty land rights, andwinning now in the courts
because of just how treatieshave been enforced or not
enforced. So leadership is nowasking the question, well, we
have a shortage of water andit's driven by climate change
(32:22):
and, you know, moving from foodproduction to vineyards because
we all believe that everybodyneeds a better quality Merlot,
you know, but the the fertilizerused to grow grapes is is
polluting the commonality of thewater source that farmers
downstream use that's poisoningthe fish.
(32:43):
So the concept of co managementon tribal lands is how to look
at people, land, assets to thenwork with local government to
say how do we approach thislocally and jointly so that not
only does it provide for all ofus, but there's potential
revenue sources to be developed.The Kurok tribe in terms of
(33:07):
wildfires, you know, the movetoward native management of land
in terms of regular burns thatcounter the wildfire situations
that we have.
Well, they're training now localfire departments in those
concepts, and they're nowtraining local native youth to
(33:27):
become firefighters, not onlyfor the reservation, but local
fire departments in a sharedresource of how we avoid burning
down the whole region. So the comanagement concept very, very
important, gets us off thelitigation path potentially, you
(33:49):
know, because fish need water,and you need water for grapes. I
mean, what is the
Grant Oliphant (33:53):
Is is that is that is that possible? I'm sorry
to interrupt, Mariano, but I I'mjust curious. Is that it it
makes all the sense in theworld. But I'm wondering, does
it make sense in or is itpossible in the in the context
of the federal environment thatwe're now that you now find
(34:17):
yourselves operating in. Youknow, I'm I'm thinking about
how, many of the projects thatyou've talked about over the
years have had to do with cleanenergy and sustainability and
comanagement of water is anotherbeautiful example.
And and and those, it would seemto me, are suddenly encountering
(34:39):
a very hostile policyenvironment. Does it matter?
Does do you forge ahead? How doyou how do you think about how
to how to to work on becauseit's a good idea what you're
describing. I'm just curious howyou continue to win on it in an
(34:59):
environment where there's suchhostility toward it.
Mariano Diaz (35:03):
Well, I'll take a shot and then John can can add
his perspective just of the leapfrom the leadership position.
Yeah. But I think that thatthere's tremendous hope in that
concept because failure torespond to our natural resources
and their availability and use,I mean, that is a common factor
(35:27):
that impacts us all. And thefailure to do that is failure
for everyone. And the mostironic, thing that I've learned
in this work with Walking Shieldis to when we reach out to
environmental funders orprograms that support
environmental financing beforethis new administration, we
(35:48):
could not get a meeting, which Ithought was highly ironic ironic
working with native people whooriginated, you know, the
concept of mother nature and itsprotection and its what and its
need.
And what we were finding at thelocal level is that we weren't
(36:08):
using the environmental languagethat would allow us an entry
into, you know, a funding cycle,right? And then we came up
against the ignorance of programofficers not knowing that there
were that many tribes in SanDiego they don't drive out
(36:29):
there, they don't go out thereunless they're going to go to
Julian to pick apples. I meanyou know their limitation didn't
include the regionalunderstanding of who lives here.
And if you really wanted to knowabout environmental protection
and the importance of sharedwater and its usage, then let me
introduce you. So that conceptof co management really has the
(36:53):
basis of an organizing principlethat it allows our young people
and those who care about theseissues to then learn about how
people are really practicing itand how the joint knowledge
exchange is a tremendous valueexperientially to then depend
against public policies that goagainst it.
Grant Oliphant (37:17):
Yeah. John, what about you? I mean, I'd I'd
there's so much in Mariano'sanswer that gets at the idea of
power sharing and power buildingand the the fact that some of
these challenges have existedfor a long time as you've
pointed out a number of times,and that, it still requires a
(37:38):
set of solutions that will workregardless and the solutions
kind of speak for themselves. Sothere's a lot there, but what do
you see as the avenue of of ofmaking these ideas prosper at a
time when it seems like they'rethey're heading into stiff
(37:59):
headwinds?
Dr. John Castillo (38:00):
Well, one of the things is we've been around
for thousands of years. So we'vebeen around for a long, long
time, and we're we're peoplethink that this stuff has
happened all all these years ofgenocide or for our native
people that we'd be gone or youknow, a lot of tribes are gone
now or and and so forth, butstill over 500 tribes left. And
(38:22):
so we know after all this thatwe had to make the adjustments.
We had to be strategic. We needto use resources that are
available to us.
And one of the things we'velearned is that we need to work
together in a cohesive waythere's always strength in
numbers. You know? So we'velearned that, you know, the San
(38:44):
for instance, San Luis Rey, theythey had to litigate for their
rights to the San Luis ReyRiver. That was five tribes that
worked together to get thatright. You know?
Because that was their theirtreaty right, and they had to go
to like Mariano said, a lot ofthese things had to go to
litigation. So now they'reworking not just with their the
tribes themselves, but withlocal government around there,
(39:05):
you know, about this waterresource. So that co management
can work. It's not the mosteasiest thing to do. But we have
to be strategic, find uniqueanswers, and move forward.
We just we just can't give up.We've been here forever, you
know, and so it's no time togive up. It's time to be strong
and move forward.
Grant Oliphant (39:27):
What I'm I'm curious, you know, picking up
again on something that Marianosaid. I am struck by I know this
to be true that the that thatoftentimes what you were dealing
with in approachingphilanthropy, let's set aside
the federal government for amoment, was that the the
(39:52):
sovereign the tribes werespeaking one language and
philanthropy had a differentlanguage. And and so, and the
expectation was that if you getwere to ask somebody for money,
you had to speak their language.I think I think part of what
you've tried to do even as youhelp organ as you help the the
(40:15):
the folks you're working withbecome better at working the
systems that exist, you're alsotrying to help the systems that
exist better understand thelanguage of the sovereign
nations. And so and to stopbeing so expectant about having
(40:36):
them conform to our model.
Do you feel you've beensuccessful in terms of that? Are
you making progress?
Dr. John Castillo (40:45):
We just had a just to give you an example.
Yesterday, we just had a meetingup here with 10 foundations
doing exactly what you justsaid, having them understand how
we as indigenous people, youknow, how we can draw from from,
you know, their resources andhow they can fit into our tribal
structures. That's exactly aconversation we had yesterday
(41:06):
about 10 foundations. So there'sprogress. I think having Mariano
who has, like you said, fortyyears of experience in
philanthropy, that really helpsour tribes, especially the ones
in San Diego we're working withto understand that language,
(41:26):
whatever that language you wantto call it, the tribal
structures and trying to mergeit some way so they have a shot
in of learning in the Indianways.
And and and we just with one ofthe groups, I asked him one of
the tribal groups was actuallyLos Coyotes. I asked him, would
you be interested if I can bringone of the foundations to your
(41:49):
reservation? Because I thinkthat's extremely important is
that the foundation folks reallysee what's going on on their
reservation. They can hear fromme and Mariano and see some
pictures and stuff, But it suremakes a difference when somebody
actually goes over there andsees what's the roads look like,
see how the housing looks like,see the poverty that exists in
San Diego County and some ofthese reservations. Yeah.
(42:12):
That really makes a difference.So we're working right now on on
getting some of thesefoundations, why don't you come
out and visit? You know? And weask for some permission from the
tribal government first. Wedon't want to just start
inviting people to come over.
Grant Oliphant (42:22):
Show up. Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo (42:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So I I think, you know, we
talking to just a tad earlier istaking a different strategic
approach, coming up with newways to break that gap. And so
we want to work together. I knowprobably pointed out in the past
(42:44):
and so little money inphilanthropy has gone to, native
organizations, native tribes inthe history of philanthropy.
Right.
Mariano Diaz (42:53):
I have to say something and and and I'll I'll
own up to something that interms of the work that we do, I
think one of the things that isso important in the language
development that seems to alwaysreinvent itself, well, now we're
calling it this, so you gottanow shift over there and, you
know, learn the definitions.And, you know, that, there
(43:16):
really is a level of urgencygrant to this work. You know,
it's not like communitydevelopment in Los Angeles,
where you already have existinginfrastructure, you already have
housing. The question is, how doyou improve it and build more?
And I think to John's point, youknow, taking people into, you
know, your backyard whereliterally, you know, you had an
(43:39):
infrastructure project that, youknow, built a new sewer system,
you know, in a nativeneighborhood.
And it's wonderful. But they ranout of money to connect the
plumbing system from theindividual homes to the new
sewer system, and it's literally10 feet away. Know? And before
(44:03):
the new sewer sewer system andwater delivery that was built at
huge cost, the people who livedin these new homes had to drink
water from the backyard hose.Now, and we go there and that
was, the project was completedsix years ago, we go there and
they're still getting theirwater from that backyard hose.
(44:26):
The question that's got to belooked at and the urgency and I
think the attitude that's got tocome with that is you would
never tolerate that in yourneighbourhood. You would never
accept those conditions for youand your children. And here this
family, you know, does thisevery day. And the indignity
(44:51):
that comes with using thebackyard hose to collect your
water. I mean, it's just so overthe top with me that I just
wanna tear my hair out.
And it really is difficult tothen sit at the table and with a
group of funders that haveresources and have staff to
(45:12):
actually finance their ownlearning however you want to
approach it, right? You know, doa study or just hire a native
American to drive you up, youknow, 10 miles. Is the
difficulty of the modeling andthe language.
Grant Oliphant (45:27):
Such a great example.
Dr. John Castillo (45:28):
Yeah, want to get into that. So it's a happy
story too, right? I was meetingwith, I go to, know, health
services are responsible forwater delivery on a reservation.
So I was meeting in Marylandwith the higher ups, you know,
with the way high up people. Itold him, you know, hey, I'm on
the grassroots level.
I'm telling you a story rightnow what's going on in this
(45:48):
reservation. I couldn't believethey were they were hearing
because they're at this policylevel and they're not not
getting that information, youknow. So I told them all about
it. And so after about anotheryear, they were able to send
more resources to finish thosepipes and stuff to these homes.
But it took a while before,like, answer, they ran out of
(46:09):
funds a while back.
It was sad. And we didn't learnabout it because sometimes, even
though we're trusted by thesereservations, sometimes it takes
a little while to share a littlebit more information because you
know, they don't want to beembarrassed or or whatever the
the whatever you want to callit. So, I asked to begin this
trust and relationship with usand say, you know, is another
one over here that we need totell you about. So, as we learn,
(46:32):
we can make those efforts at ahigher level. I have not been to
Washington DC since COVID and Iprobably not going go for a
couple more years.
But, you know, we work withcongress on both sides. I work I
work with in house services. Iwork with the Pentagon to keep
them informed of what our needsare in Indian country so they
(46:52):
can hear from the grassrootlevel.
Grant Oliphant (46:56):
So let me ask you. We're running out of time.
Let's see if we can do alightning round of a couple of
questions because I I wanna getthese in. Just can you reflect
for a second about whatpartnership among government and
philanthropy and tribal nationslooks like when it's working
(47:19):
well? What does that look like?
Dr. John Castillo (47:23):
It looks like success. You know? Everybody
win.
Grant Oliphant (47:27):
Okay. How about an interim step? But
Dr. John Castillo (47:31):
Well, you know, it it takes people around
to come around the table for acommon a common goal. And if you
have a win win situation, that'swhen it works the best. So for
the military, when they come inand work with us, they're
getting the training and gettingready for deployment readiness,
which we hope they never have tobe deployed. It's also an extra
retention tool tool for them. Itkeeps them at the reserves
(47:53):
signing back up.
It's excellent, for the tribes.They now have new roads or water
wells or bridges or homes orelectrical lines. Mean, it keeps
going on and on. And of course,so the tribe wins and then
Walking Shield, whose mission isto improve the quality of life
(48:14):
for our reservations and offreservation communities, we all
win. So if you can get apartnership that we all win,
it's so much better than tryingto fight with each other over
something.
You know?
Mariano Diaz (48:24):
But, you know, that's Right. That's a good
question, Grant, in that we havetribal partners that are trying
to organize around those comanagement concepts. But there's
a tribe in Northern Californiathat's one of our tribal
partners that we try to visit asoften as we can. And their
approach was to organize theirassets around alternative energy
(48:49):
Mhmm. And build the casino andthe housing and all the
infrastructure with with the endgoal of developing alternative
energy resources and reinvest inthe reservation to generate the
employment, to generate theinfrastructure, to look at all
(49:10):
revenues that come in to thereservation that doesn't go to
its members.
It's reinvested, you know, inthe reservation, and it's the
alternative energy developmentthat is financing the co
management opportunities. Well,now you have a situation where
the tribe's success in energymanagement and revenue
(49:34):
production is that they now arethe primary partner for fire
management in the region. Theybuilt a heliport on the
reservation to support firemanagement suppression and
recovery. They have purchasedfire equipment that exceeds any
(49:59):
ability of local government tohave, And it's a shared now
resources. They're trainingtheir firefighters on the new
cook and ladder they bought.
So the concept of success, itreally is in this co management.
It doesn't always start in afriendly situation, it does
(50:20):
create friendships localgovernment has now to work with
them because the tribe is nowselling stored electricity to
downtown.
Dr. John Castillo (50:32):
Right.
Mariano Diaz (50:32):
So so everybody love What about
Grant Oliphant (50:34):
what I love about that example is it's sort
of the the process itselfbrought out the shared interest
that maybe one of the one of thepartners didn't want to
acknowledge existed at the frontend, which I think is often true
of partnerships. Okay. Quickly,because we're running out of
time. I I I think in this era,it's important to end on a on a
(50:57):
note of hope, although I found alot to be hopeful about in this
conversation. But I would loveto know what you're you talk
about to give other people hopeor that gives you hope that you
would wanna share with ouraudience right now.
Dr. John Castillo (51:15):
For for us, for Walking Shield, we've
working together, you hadfoundations and government.
We've made a a major difference,but it it's a partnership. It's
a collaboration. So our ourstrength is working with a lot
of different partners to make adifference. And so that we all
look good.
Right? And the people in thecommunity that really needs the
(51:38):
help, whether it be eyeglassesor a safe road to drive on,
everybody gets a pat on theback. So we made a difference,
it's a collaborative process.Just can't do it by ourselves.
Grant Oliphant (51:53):
Great. And Mariano, what about you?
Mariano Diaz (51:56):
Walking Shield is a service organization. And what
I mean by that is that we workwith our tribal partners to
serve their interests, theirself determination plans based
on what they wanna do, separatefrom a funding source or what is
it that you wanna achieve,what's the plan, And how do we
do that? And working withoutside partners, the ones that
(52:19):
we're trying to develop, is thesame approach. How can we be of
service to you to achieve youreconomic development goals that
could include native Americancommunities and reservations
that has land, that has peoplein which they're looking to
improve their quality of life?What is the match points that we
(52:40):
can identify and act on?
Grant Oliphant (52:44):
Beautiful. I you know, what I what I heard in
those very quick answers waspartnership and and service. And
it's it's interesting that as asource of hope is probably the
most enduring source we couldask for, you know, asking saying
that you find it in how peoplework together and how they serve
each other. I just wanna thankyou both for for taking the time
(53:08):
to sit with me today and talkabout this. It has been a rich
conversation that we easilycould have gone another hour on,
but unfortunately, we don't haveit.
So just thank you both and thankyou more importantly for the
extraordinary work you're doing.
Dr. John Castillo (53:25):
Thank you, Grant. Thank you, Grant.
Grant Oliphant (53:33):
All right, Crystal, what'd you think?
Crystal Page (53:35):
I think it was very deep, a lot to unpack.
Grant Oliphant (53:38):
Yeah, Well, there's a lot of very serious
material to cover. And for me, Iwas struck by how many times the
concept of sovereignty came upand the complex ways of viewing
that and how important thatunderstanding is for anybody
working with the notion of selfdetermination among people. So I
(54:03):
thought that was powerful.
Crystal Page (54:04):
Yeah, it stood out to me because I think we hear
those words, self determinationall the time, right? But it
seems like those partnershipswith government, with the
military really allow the tribesthen to really shape what they
want the course of their futureto look like.
Grant Oliphant (54:20):
I was struck too by the long view. So the
perspective that the challengesthat we're facing in the moment
are in many respects old andfamiliar to tribal nations and
so less inclined to panic aboutit in the moment and to think
about issues like environmentalstewardship and co management of
(54:44):
the land as long term challengesand goals. And to think about
partnerships and bridgingdivides as long term challenges
and goals. And recognizing, andsoberingly so, to hear that,
yeah, there have been plenty ofreversals over the course of
hundreds of years and howimportant it is to keep moving
(55:07):
toward the goal anyway.
Crystal Page (55:09):
Yeah, I think that the wisdom of Doctor. Castillo,
as I listened and reflected,he's right. That's not just for
the tribes, that's for a lot ofour history. You have to hold
that long view. You talk aboutthat even in philanthropy
playing that long game, havingthe long view of things.
And so I imagine the amount ofpatience it takes, but also the
(55:29):
persistence to make sure yourfolks are ready when that moment
strikes where you can move yourgoals forward.
Dr. John Castillo (55:35):
I
Crystal Page (55:36):
just found really impressive and something I'm
going to sit with.
Grant Oliphant (55:39):
Yeah, a lot to sit with on this. And I think
probably one of the mostimportant lessons on top of that
is how we should listen ratherthan speak so often that it is
important to meet people wherethey are and to recognize
different traditions and toaccept that as part of how we
(56:01):
engage with other human beings.Really a lot of wisdom in terms
of how philanthropy shouldoperate and how we would hope
government would as well. Soconversation in terms of some
very important themes.
Crystal Page (56:17):
Agreed. I'm so grateful that they made
themselves available to us forthis interview and thanks for
unpacking it with me.
Grant Oliphant (56:26):
Yeah, likewise. Thank you.
Mariano Diaz (56:27):
Appreciate it.
Crystal Page (56:28):
Thanks everybody.
Grant Oliphant (56:35):
This is a production of the Prebis
Foundation.
Crystal Page (56:39):
Hosted by Grant Oliphant.
Grant Oliphant (56:41):
Co hosted by Crystal Page.
Crystal Page (56:44):
Co produced by Crystal Page and Adam
Greenfield.
Grant Oliphant (56:48):
Engineered by Adam Greenfield.
Crystal Page (56:51):
Production coordination by Tess Kureski.
Grant Oliphant (56:54):
Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina.
Crystal Page (56:58):
Special thanks to the Previse Foundation team.
Grant Oliphant (57:01):
The Stop and Talk theme song was created by
San Diego's own mister LyricalGroove.
Crystal Page (57:07):
Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or
visit us at previsefdn.org.
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