January 28, 2025 • 17 mins
Justin Sunseri discusses transitioning from a prolonged state of shutdown to experiencing freeze. He explains the differences between shutdown and freeze through the lens of polyvagal theory, and provides insights into the healing process. Justin discusses the importance of building a safety state and how to mindfully connect with different states of defense. He also introduces his new course 'Stillness to Sympathetic,' designed to help individuals harness emerging sympathetic activation for meaningful goals. Viewer questions and feedback are encouraged.
00:00 Introduction and Viewer Question
01:02 Understanding Shutdown and Freeze
03:11 The Process of Coming Out of Shutdown
10:42 Mindfulness of Safety State
12:15 Mindfulness of Defensive State
15:34 Got a question?
SNB: Books 1 & 2 - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
Resources:
🔸 Free resources and course in the Members Center - https://www.justinlmft.com/members
🔸 Join the Unstucking Academy - https://www.stucknotbroken.com/unstuckingacademy
🔸 Polyvagal Intro webpage - https://www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro
🔸 Stuck Not Broken book series - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
🔸 Polyvagal 101 audio series - https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cce134e7-1550-4d33-8e56-738d344c63b0
Crisis resources:
- National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
- National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
- LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
- National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
- Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
- Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, YouTube, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (#99147).
Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast! When you do, you will immediately get the next episode as soon as it's available. What's better than having the next episode of SNB ready and waiting for you? (Nothing, that's what.)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So what if you're coming out ofshutdown and you find yourself with a
(00:02):
new Stuck state or a new predicament,which is having more freeze activation.
I want to address this as a realquestion I got from, or as a
real person asking a question onYouTube that I wanted to address.
Hi, I'm Justin Sunseri.
I'm a therapist and coach and I wantto teach you how to live with more
calm, confidence, and connectionwithout psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
(00:24):
Of course, this is not therapyand should not replace therapy.
So here's the question.
It says, "Thank you, Justin.
Since I discovered you, I wasable to get out of shutdown mode
that I've been in for years."
Super happy for you.
Congratulations on the progress.
"I was able to get out of the shutdownmode that I've been in for years.
Maybe most of my life.
But now I'm in freeze.
And while I understand slightly touchingon a safe state, I'm not sure I understand
(00:50):
what touching on defense feels like.
Can you please explain that for meagain, or thanks again, your work
is so important to all of us."
I'm really happy to read that theprogress and also I'm glad that what I
put out there has been helpful for you.
Let's learn or relearn whatshutdown and freeze are.
And then I'm going to address ingeneral, and I don't know about
this person in particular, but ingeneral, what could be happening if,
(01:13):
if, if someone's going through this.
And then I will lightly touchupon how to lightly touch upon.
defensive activation.
So first off, shutdown andfreeze are different things.
Shutdown is, in the, in the polyvagaltheory, shutdown is a state of collapse.
It's a state of limp collapse.
It is the last resort when we cannotbe safe, run away, be aggressive.
(01:39):
If none of those strategies work, or ifwe're not able to be safe, can't run away
or fight off a danger, then we collapse.
We shut down.
Our body plays dead.
Uh, the other option would be Freeze.
Freeze is, uh, just likeShutdown, it's immobilization,
but it's a tense immobilization.
So Shutdown is a limp collapse, it'simmobilized, but Freeze is a tense
(02:04):
immobilization, more like a statue.
The body is ready to run away or fight,but also immobilizing at the same time.
Freeze is a combination of flight,fight, flight or fight plus shutdown.
So freeze is a combination of shutdownimmobilization and flight or fight.
Both of these polyvagal autonomicstates are occurring at the same time.
(02:30):
So we have our foot on the gas, butalso on the brake at the same time.
Shutdown is, is not amixed state like that.
Shutdown is a primary state.
It's um, it's just the dorsalvagal pathways are active and,
or more overly active and, andsomeone goes into a limp collapse.
So they're, they're different.
I guess just to sum it up, shutdownis a limp collapsed immobilization
(02:56):
and freeze is a tense immobilization.
They are similar, but different.
And it's going to play into whatcould be happening if someone finds
themselves going through, uh, whatthe questioner, uh, put forth.
Which is, I'm coming out of shutdown.
So a, a, a prolonged, uh, even maybedecades worth of living in shutdown,
(03:19):
which is not playing dead, butthe body's in a state of collapse.
It's in a state of disconnection.
It's in a state of numbness and lowenergy and unable to fulfill the wants
that the person has like they want todo things, but they lack the energy to
make it happen So even though it's notplaying dead for decades that activate
(03:41):
that- that shutdown activation isactive in the system for decades, and
that's what it can look like day to day.
Really quick, again, a reminder, to getto shutdown, one has to go, they can't be
safe, they can't be in their safety state.
They can't run away, they can't fight,and so the body collapses in shutdown.
One can get stuck inshutdown, and that's trauma.
(04:02):
One can get stuck in a state ofdefense, and one of those states
of defense would be shutdown.
So to come out of shutdown, tocome out of that stuck defensive
state, that traumatized shutdownstate, you have to do the reverse.
You can't just be done withshutdown and feel safe and fulfilled
and how to live a content life.
It's not exactly how it works.
(04:23):
You kind of have to go throughfor really full healing.
You have to go from shutdownthrough fight, through flight, and
then back into your safety state.
Now that's the very one dimensionalcartoon way of looking at it.
It is more complex than that.
All of these states are activewithin us pretty much at all times.
Like right now I'm immobile.
I'm sitting still, but you know, myhands are moving and I'm talking a lot
(04:45):
and thinking critically and rapidly.
And so I'm in my safety state,but I'm also kind of mobile.
I'm also immobile.
So it's all these things arekind of happening all at once.
My dominant state or one's dominantstate might be shut down or might
be flight fight or might be safety.
So if your dominant state is shutdown, For that to ease up, you
(05:08):
have to have more access to safety.
So you have to build up thestrength of your safety state.
As you do that, the dominance fromshutdown alleviates, but now flight
and fight come more online becauseour body has to go through those
autonomic shifts in order to geteven deeper into its safety state and
(05:31):
have more of a dominant safety state.
So, when you come out of shutdown,what you'll find is that now there's
more fight, probably specificallyfight happening, but we'll call
it, we'll say flight and fight.
As you come out of shutdown, there'smore sympathetic flight fight activation.
But again, it's not all at once.
So it's not like you're in shutdowntoday and then 12 hours from now, at the
(05:54):
end of the day, you're out of shutdown.
It's a gradual process ofcoming out of shutdown.
So, as immobilization softens,mobilization will increase,
but it's not one or the other.
So you might have a ton of shutdown today.
(06:14):
And then two months from now, thatshutdown has decreased by 50%.
Let's give it a number.
And since it's decreased by 50%, nowthe mobilization system has increased
by, I don't know, we'll say 10percent and safety's increased by 40%.
I make it up numbers.
Don't worry about the numbers.
So even though shutdown's gone downand safety has come up, well now
(06:37):
there's more room in your systemto have sympathetic activation.
But the shutdown's still there.
So what could be happening is that,especially if there's not enough safety
in the system, as shutdown recedes,well now sympathetic's coming up.
And so now we have sympatheticflight fight and shutdown,
uh, kind of co occurring.
(06:59):
Uh, they're, so they're there,and, and this is, this could
be the process of healing.
This could be the process, thiscould be a sign of progress.
So it's not like the shutdown's doneand I'm good, it's, well now shutdown's
less, and now I have to also feel andutilize my, my newfound sympathetic
fight activation, plus seek outsafety and, and practice feeling that.
(07:23):
So there's a lot of thingsthat kinda happen all at once.
But that could be What's happening ina situation like this, so shutdown's
less cool, but sympathetic's more.
But now both of those are kind of in thesystem, and it could feel like a freeze.
It could feel like, not a fullon freeze probably, but, um, it
(07:45):
could feel like there's somethingI'm working on, and I'm making
progress on it, but I keep stalling.
Or there's something in my mind thatI want to achieve, and I'm just,
I'm not moving forward with it.
So there's mobilization.
It's there.
I want to create this art project.
And I started it, but then I justsit there staring at the canvas.
So there's mobilization.
The body wants to do something, but justkind of stalls or just kind of freezes.
(08:08):
But it's not an intense freezewhere your muscles are actually
tense and your eyes are wide.
It's not a panic attack.
It's more just, it could look like that.
Could it look like a panic attack?
Could it look like a freeze?
Eh, kinda.
My client work, at least, and for myself.
As shutdown recedes, there's definitelymore sympathetic in the system.
(08:30):
Uh, it can look like a big burst ofit, where like, Oh, this feels great,
let me just run with this and use it.
But it's kinda all over theplace, and so it's dysregulated.
That, that can, it's, there's nolike one way these things can look.
And, and so it could look more likestalling, it could look like out
of control, sympathetic, but not.
(08:52):
Like you're actually, you know, hurtingsomeone, but just a lot of aggression in
my system and now I'm telling people offor, or I'm getting a ton of work done,
but I'm not really being that productive.
I'm just sort of spinning my wheels.
It could look different ways.
So, for the question that's put forth,when we come out of shutdown and we
notice some freeze or some lingeringor background freeze or, Something
(09:15):
in that realm that could be what'shappening is that now they're just more
sympathetic, but it's also shut down.
And so those two things are in a sensecompeting, uh, but really in you and your
system, in your safety state, there's aninability to, or the strength is lacking
to allow both of those activations toallow yourself to be shut down, but
(09:37):
also to vacillate over to mobilization.
The safety state alwaysneeds to be strengthened.
All of us, I think.
Every day we should be working on that.
But as the safety state strengthens,the shutdown will continue to recede
and it'll be able, the safety statewill be able to greet and welcome and
um, point the emerging sympatheticactivation in the appropriate direction.
(10:03):
that's, that's meaningful.
I'm actually working on somethingright now, a new cohort and course
called Stillness to Sympathetic.
And that is going to teach people how towho people who have access to stillness,
which is, um, shut down plus safety.
So people have access to stillnessand are noticing some sympathetic
activation coming back in their system.
(10:25):
It teaches that person how to welcomeit, how to feel it, but also how
to direct it toward a meaningful.
goals, hobbies, productivity, whateverthey want, exercise to be able to point
that emerging sympathetic activationin the right direction or in the
direction that is right for them.
The questioner asks, they, or they saythey know how to touch upon safety,
(10:47):
great, but how do you touch upon defense?
It, it's the process of it, atleast the way I break it down in
my coursework is very similar.
And what I would ask you or ask anyone,not just the questioner, but I would
ask us to do is can you mindfullyconnect with what you feel in the
present moment, no matter what it is?
And that's not easy.
(11:08):
But when it comes to safety, canyou go for a walk and mindfully
connect with the experience ofthe sensory input around you?
So that would be like, goingfor a walk, and it's a sunny
day, and I like that feeling.
Like, yay, this is nice.
Um, that's safety, and that'snice, but it's like passive safety.
You're not really mindfullyconnecting with it.
You're not getting the most out of it.
(11:28):
So the next step would be, can youmindfully experience what it's like
to go out for a walk on a sunny day.
Can you notice how the sun feels on yourskin and how that affects your breath?
Can you notice what the chill of theair might feel like on your face and
how you feel about that internally?
What happens inside of youbased on that external input?
(11:51):
Can you listen to a bird andnotice whether you like it or not?
And if you like it, how could you tell?
What do you feel internally?
Are you more or less likely tosmile when you listen to that bird?
So all of these pieces.
When we mindfully attune to them oneby one and notice how we feel inside
of it, that to me, that's mindfulness.
To me, that is mindfully puttingthe reps in and feeling your
(12:12):
safety state when it's there.
So same thing when it comesto defensive activation.
Can we notice it when it's thereand mindfully connect with it?
That would be what I would encouragepeople to do in my coursework, what
I encourage people to do is have-or at least starting out, have an
environment in their home where it isgiving them consistent cues of safety.
(12:37):
We call it the Passive Safety Environment.
It's also in book number two thatI, that I wrote, uh, Stuck Not
Broken (12:42):
Book Two -Building Safety.
If you have a Passive SafetyEnvironment that has the right
sound, the right lighting, theright sense, you know, whatever.
If you have the right seating.
If, for you as an individual, if youhave that and you can feel your safety
state and mindfully connect with it,well, what else is inside of you?
Once you're grounded in safety, thenyou can lightly touch upon, or deeply
(13:05):
if you want to, you can lightlytouch upon defensive activation.
And that would be, "well, I knowI have a chronic shutdown" or
"I know I have this lingeringfreeze stuff happening within me.
I'm in my safety state.
I'm connected to mypassive safety environment.
I can feel present.
I feel connected.
I'm curious and I'm interested inwhat the world is like inside of me.
(13:27):
And so, what does thisshutdown stuff feel like?
What does it truly feel liketo be, to experience numbness?
What does frustration feel like?"
And so how do you feel thosefeelings inside of yourself?
Well, you would, well firstoff, permit them to be.
They're given permission to be.
And then ask yourself, where dothose feelings live in my body?
Where do I feel shutdown?
Where do I feel frustration?
(13:48):
And then if you can identifywhere it lives in your body, spend
some time with it, notice it.
Um, ask yourself, what does it look like?
What does it, if I touchedit, what does it feel like?
What shape is it?
What size is it?
What color is it?
I know these are weird questions,but this is how we connect with our
internal world through description.
And it gets easier over time, butinitially you might have to be
(14:09):
very objective and ask yourselfthose questions, but over time it
becomes, you don't have to do that.
But that would be a way totouch upon how you feel.
And actually, if you just stuck with,"It's okay for me to feel shut down,"
or "it's okay for me to feel a littlebit of frustration" and notice where it
live in your body while staying anchoredin your safety state, to me, that's,
(14:29):
I would call that a light practiceas you go deeper and you actually
feel into and notice the experienceof whatever emotion you're allowing
or whatever state you're allowing.
And that's where.
Well, that's where we get deeper into it.
And that's where real changeand unstucking can happen.
That's where we can allow something likefrustration or, or, uh, that emerging
(14:55):
sympathetic activation, anxiety, maybe.
We can allow frustration or anxietyto be present, connect with it
mindfully, and then pendulate over toour safety state and reconnect with
that and then pendulate back and forth.
That.
is what truly allows thatnext level of unstucking.
But, lightly?
(15:16):
If you're touching upon defense lightly,be anchored in your safety state, uh,
in the, in the, in your Passive SafetyEnvironment, and then, be mindful, be
curious about what else is inside of you.
What, what that defensiveactivation, that lingering defensive
activation, what it feels like.
That's what I would say.
That's how you lightly touch upon it.
That's a great question.
Thank you, uh, YouTube, commenter,watcher, listener, questioner,
(15:41):
. Thank you for putting that forth.
I really like responding to questions.
So if you have questions,put 'em in the comments.
On YouTube, email me if you, um, are apodcast listener, justinlmft at gmail.
com.
Just email me.
That's fine too.
But I would love torespond to more of these.
Um, I get a lot of it personally.
I want to make sure that, you know,you're getting the answers that
(16:01):
you're searching for as much as I can.
I can't get obviously superdetailed and I can't tailor
anything specifically for someone.
That's more for like coachingand therapy, obviously.
If the Polyvagal Theory and buildingyour safety state appeal to you, I would
encourage you to check out my books,Stuck Not Broken Book One and Book Two.
Book One teaches you the Pauli Vigiltheory, helps you write a new, really
(16:23):
brief narrative of yourself with morecompassion, uh, and, uh, less judgment.
And Book Two teaches you deeply aboutsafety, Polyvagal safety- how to notice
it, how to feel it, how to build it,how to do it again and again and again.
And book three's not out yet, but that'llteach you how to get, uh, unstuck.
So check those books out.
I'll have a link in thedescription for you.
Otherwise, thanks forhanging out with me and bye.
(16:46):
This podcast is not therapy,not intended to be therapy or
be a replacement for therapy.
Nothing in this creates or indicatesa therapeutic relationship.
Please consult with your therapist orseek for one in your area if you are
experiencing mental health symptoms.
Nothing in this podcast shouldbe construed to be specific life
advice, it is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
So what if you're coming out ofshutdown and you find yourself with a
(00:02):
new Stuck state or a new predicament,which is having more freeze activation.
I want to address this as a realquestion I got from, or as a
real person asking a question onYouTube that I wanted to address.
Hi, I'm Justin Sunseri.
I'm a therapist and coach and I wantto teach you how to live with more
calm, confidence, and connectionwithout psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
(00:24):
Of course, this is not therapyand should not replace therapy.
So here's the question.
It says, "Thank you, Justin.
Since I discovered you, I wasable to get out of shutdown mode
that I've been in for years."
Super happy for you.
Congratulations on the progress.
"I was able to get out of the shutdownmode that I've been in for years.
Maybe most of my life.
But now I'm in freeze.
And while I understand slightly touchingon a safe state, I'm not sure I understand
(00:50):
what touching on defense feels like.
Can you please explain that for meagain, or thanks again, your work
is so important to all of us."
I'm really happy to read that theprogress and also I'm glad that what I
put out there has been helpful for you.
Let's learn or relearn whatshutdown and freeze are.
And then I'm going to address ingeneral, and I don't know about
this person in particular, but ingeneral, what could be happening if,
(01:13):
if, if someone's going through this.
And then I will lightly touchupon how to lightly touch upon.
defensive activation.
So first off, shutdown andfreeze are different things.
Shutdown is, in the, in the polyvagaltheory, shutdown is a state of collapse.
It's a state of limp collapse.
It is the last resort when we cannotbe safe, run away, be aggressive.
(01:39):
If none of those strategies work, or ifwe're not able to be safe, can't run away
or fight off a danger, then we collapse.
We shut down.
Our body plays dead.
Uh, the other option would be Freeze.
Freeze is, uh, just likeShutdown, it's immobilization,
but it's a tense immobilization.
So Shutdown is a limp collapse, it'simmobilized, but Freeze is a tense
(02:04):
immobilization, more like a statue.
The body is ready to run away or fight,but also immobilizing at the same time.
Freeze is a combination of flight,fight, flight or fight plus shutdown.
So freeze is a combination of shutdownimmobilization and flight or fight.
Both of these polyvagal autonomicstates are occurring at the same time.
(02:30):
So we have our foot on the gas, butalso on the brake at the same time.
Shutdown is, is not amixed state like that.
Shutdown is a primary state.
It's um, it's just the dorsalvagal pathways are active and,
or more overly active and, andsomeone goes into a limp collapse.
So they're, they're different.
I guess just to sum it up, shutdownis a limp collapsed immobilization
(02:56):
and freeze is a tense immobilization.
They are similar, but different.
And it's going to play into whatcould be happening if someone finds
themselves going through, uh, whatthe questioner, uh, put forth.
Which is, I'm coming out of shutdown.
So a, a, a prolonged, uh, even maybedecades worth of living in shutdown,
(03:19):
which is not playing dead, butthe body's in a state of collapse.
It's in a state of disconnection.
It's in a state of numbness and lowenergy and unable to fulfill the wants
that the person has like they want todo things, but they lack the energy to
make it happen So even though it's notplaying dead for decades that activate
(03:41):
that- that shutdown activation isactive in the system for decades, and
that's what it can look like day to day.
Really quick, again, a reminder, to getto shutdown, one has to go, they can't be
safe, they can't be in their safety state.
They can't run away, they can't fight,and so the body collapses in shutdown.
One can get stuck inshutdown, and that's trauma.
(04:02):
One can get stuck in a state ofdefense, and one of those states
of defense would be shutdown.
So to come out of shutdown, tocome out of that stuck defensive
state, that traumatized shutdownstate, you have to do the reverse.
You can't just be done withshutdown and feel safe and fulfilled
and how to live a content life.
It's not exactly how it works.
(04:23):
You kind of have to go throughfor really full healing.
You have to go from shutdownthrough fight, through flight, and
then back into your safety state.
Now that's the very one dimensionalcartoon way of looking at it.
It is more complex than that.
All of these states are activewithin us pretty much at all times.
Like right now I'm immobile.
I'm sitting still, but you know, myhands are moving and I'm talking a lot
(04:45):
and thinking critically and rapidly.
And so I'm in my safety state,but I'm also kind of mobile.
I'm also immobile.
So it's all these things arekind of happening all at once.
My dominant state or one's dominantstate might be shut down or might
be flight fight or might be safety.
So if your dominant state is shutdown, For that to ease up, you
(05:08):
have to have more access to safety.
So you have to build up thestrength of your safety state.
As you do that, the dominance fromshutdown alleviates, but now flight
and fight come more online becauseour body has to go through those
autonomic shifts in order to geteven deeper into its safety state and
(05:31):
have more of a dominant safety state.
So, when you come out of shutdown,what you'll find is that now there's
more fight, probably specificallyfight happening, but we'll call
it, we'll say flight and fight.
As you come out of shutdown, there'smore sympathetic flight fight activation.
But again, it's not all at once.
So it's not like you're in shutdowntoday and then 12 hours from now, at the
(05:54):
end of the day, you're out of shutdown.
It's a gradual process ofcoming out of shutdown.
So, as immobilization softens,mobilization will increase,
but it's not one or the other.
So you might have a ton of shutdown today.
(06:14):
And then two months from now, thatshutdown has decreased by 50%.
Let's give it a number.
And since it's decreased by 50%, nowthe mobilization system has increased
by, I don't know, we'll say 10percent and safety's increased by 40%.
I make it up numbers.
Don't worry about the numbers.
So even though shutdown's gone downand safety has come up, well now
(06:37):
there's more room in your systemto have sympathetic activation.
But the shutdown's still there.
So what could be happening is that,especially if there's not enough safety
in the system, as shutdown recedes,well now sympathetic's coming up.
And so now we have sympatheticflight fight and shutdown,
uh, kind of co occurring.
(06:59):
Uh, they're, so they're there,and, and this is, this could
be the process of healing.
This could be the process, thiscould be a sign of progress.
So it's not like the shutdown's doneand I'm good, it's, well now shutdown's
less, and now I have to also feel andutilize my, my newfound sympathetic
fight activation, plus seek outsafety and, and practice feeling that.
(07:23):
So there's a lot of thingsthat kinda happen all at once.
But that could be What's happening ina situation like this, so shutdown's
less cool, but sympathetic's more.
But now both of those are kind of in thesystem, and it could feel like a freeze.
It could feel like, not a fullon freeze probably, but, um, it
(07:45):
could feel like there's somethingI'm working on, and I'm making
progress on it, but I keep stalling.
Or there's something in my mind thatI want to achieve, and I'm just,
I'm not moving forward with it.
So there's mobilization.
It's there.
I want to create this art project.
And I started it, but then I justsit there staring at the canvas.
So there's mobilization.
The body wants to do something, but justkind of stalls or just kind of freezes.
(08:08):
But it's not an intense freezewhere your muscles are actually
tense and your eyes are wide.
It's not a panic attack.
It's more just, it could look like that.
Could it look like a panic attack?
Could it look like a freeze?
Eh, kinda.
My client work, at least, and for myself.
As shutdown recedes, there's definitelymore sympathetic in the system.
(08:30):
Uh, it can look like a big burst ofit, where like, Oh, this feels great,
let me just run with this and use it.
But it's kinda all over theplace, and so it's dysregulated.
That, that can, it's, there's nolike one way these things can look.
And, and so it could look more likestalling, it could look like out
of control, sympathetic, but not.
(08:52):
Like you're actually, you know, hurtingsomeone, but just a lot of aggression in
my system and now I'm telling people offor, or I'm getting a ton of work done,
but I'm not really being that productive.
I'm just sort of spinning my wheels.
It could look different ways.
So, for the question that's put forth,when we come out of shutdown and we
notice some freeze or some lingeringor background freeze or, Something
(09:15):
in that realm that could be what'shappening is that now they're just more
sympathetic, but it's also shut down.
And so those two things are in a sensecompeting, uh, but really in you and your
system, in your safety state, there's aninability to, or the strength is lacking
to allow both of those activations toallow yourself to be shut down, but
(09:37):
also to vacillate over to mobilization.
The safety state alwaysneeds to be strengthened.
All of us, I think.
Every day we should be working on that.
But as the safety state strengthens,the shutdown will continue to recede
and it'll be able, the safety statewill be able to greet and welcome and
um, point the emerging sympatheticactivation in the appropriate direction.
(10:03):
that's, that's meaningful.
I'm actually working on somethingright now, a new cohort and course
called Stillness to Sympathetic.
And that is going to teach people how towho people who have access to stillness,
which is, um, shut down plus safety.
So people have access to stillnessand are noticing some sympathetic
activation coming back in their system.
(10:25):
It teaches that person how to welcomeit, how to feel it, but also how
to direct it toward a meaningful.
goals, hobbies, productivity, whateverthey want, exercise to be able to point
that emerging sympathetic activationin the right direction or in the
direction that is right for them.
The questioner asks, they, or they saythey know how to touch upon safety,
(10:47):
great, but how do you touch upon defense?
It, it's the process of it, atleast the way I break it down in
my coursework is very similar.
And what I would ask you or ask anyone,not just the questioner, but I would
ask us to do is can you mindfullyconnect with what you feel in the
present moment, no matter what it is?
And that's not easy.
(11:08):
But when it comes to safety, canyou go for a walk and mindfully
connect with the experience ofthe sensory input around you?
So that would be like, goingfor a walk, and it's a sunny
day, and I like that feeling.
Like, yay, this is nice.
Um, that's safety, and that'snice, but it's like passive safety.
You're not really mindfullyconnecting with it.
You're not getting the most out of it.
(11:28):
So the next step would be, can youmindfully experience what it's like
to go out for a walk on a sunny day.
Can you notice how the sun feels on yourskin and how that affects your breath?
Can you notice what the chill of theair might feel like on your face and
how you feel about that internally?
What happens inside of youbased on that external input?
(11:51):
Can you listen to a bird andnotice whether you like it or not?
And if you like it, how could you tell?
What do you feel internally?
Are you more or less likely tosmile when you listen to that bird?
So all of these pieces.
When we mindfully attune to them oneby one and notice how we feel inside
of it, that to me, that's mindfulness.
To me, that is mindfully puttingthe reps in and feeling your
(12:12):
safety state when it's there.
So same thing when it comesto defensive activation.
Can we notice it when it's thereand mindfully connect with it?
That would be what I would encouragepeople to do in my coursework, what
I encourage people to do is have-or at least starting out, have an
environment in their home where it isgiving them consistent cues of safety.
(12:37):
We call it the Passive Safety Environment.
It's also in book number two thatI, that I wrote, uh, Stuck Not
Broken (12:42):
Book Two -Building Safety.
If you have a Passive SafetyEnvironment that has the right
sound, the right lighting, theright sense, you know, whatever.
If you have the right seating.
If, for you as an individual, if youhave that and you can feel your safety
state and mindfully connect with it,well, what else is inside of you?
Once you're grounded in safety, thenyou can lightly touch upon, or deeply
(13:05):
if you want to, you can lightlytouch upon defensive activation.
And that would be, "well, I knowI have a chronic shutdown" or
"I know I have this lingeringfreeze stuff happening within me.
I'm in my safety state.
I'm connected to mypassive safety environment.
I can feel present.
I feel connected.
I'm curious and I'm interested inwhat the world is like inside of me.
(13:27):
And so, what does thisshutdown stuff feel like?
What does it truly feel liketo be, to experience numbness?
What does frustration feel like?"
And so how do you feel thosefeelings inside of yourself?
Well, you would, well firstoff, permit them to be.
They're given permission to be.
And then ask yourself, where dothose feelings live in my body?
Where do I feel shutdown?
Where do I feel frustration?
(13:48):
And then if you can identifywhere it lives in your body, spend
some time with it, notice it.
Um, ask yourself, what does it look like?
What does it, if I touchedit, what does it feel like?
What shape is it?
What size is it?
What color is it?
I know these are weird questions,but this is how we connect with our
internal world through description.
And it gets easier over time, butinitially you might have to be
(14:09):
very objective and ask yourselfthose questions, but over time it
becomes, you don't have to do that.
But that would be a way totouch upon how you feel.
And actually, if you just stuck with,"It's okay for me to feel shut down,"
or "it's okay for me to feel a littlebit of frustration" and notice where it
live in your body while staying anchoredin your safety state, to me, that's,
(14:29):
I would call that a light practiceas you go deeper and you actually
feel into and notice the experienceof whatever emotion you're allowing
or whatever state you're allowing.
And that's where.
Well, that's where we get deeper into it.
And that's where real changeand unstucking can happen.
That's where we can allow something likefrustration or, or, uh, that emerging
(14:55):
sympathetic activation, anxiety, maybe.
We can allow frustration or anxietyto be present, connect with it
mindfully, and then pendulate over toour safety state and reconnect with
that and then pendulate back and forth.
That.
is what truly allows thatnext level of unstucking.
But, lightly?
(15:16):
If you're touching upon defense lightly,be anchored in your safety state, uh,
in the, in the, in your Passive SafetyEnvironment, and then, be mindful, be
curious about what else is inside of you.
What, what that defensiveactivation, that lingering defensive
activation, what it feels like.
That's what I would say.
That's how you lightly touch upon it.
That's a great question.
Thank you, uh, YouTube, commenter,watcher, listener, questioner,
(15:41):
. Thank you for putting that forth.
I really like responding to questions.
So if you have questions,put 'em in the comments.
On YouTube, email me if you, um, are apodcast listener, justinlmft at gmail.
com.
Just email me.
That's fine too.
But I would love torespond to more of these.
Um, I get a lot of it personally.
I want to make sure that, you know,you're getting the answers that
(16:01):
you're searching for as much as I can.
I can't get obviously superdetailed and I can't tailor
anything specifically for someone.
That's more for like coachingand therapy, obviously.
If the Polyvagal Theory and buildingyour safety state appeal to you, I would
encourage you to check out my books,Stuck Not Broken Book One and Book Two.
Book One teaches you the Pauli Vigiltheory, helps you write a new, really
(16:23):
brief narrative of yourself with morecompassion, uh, and, uh, less judgment.
And Book Two teaches you deeply aboutsafety, Polyvagal safety- how to notice
it, how to feel it, how to build it,how to do it again and again and again.
And book three's not out yet, but that'llteach you how to get, uh, unstuck.
So check those books out.
I'll have a link in thedescription for you.
Otherwise, thanks forhanging out with me and bye.
(16:46):
This podcast is not therapy,not intended to be therapy or
be a replacement for therapy.
Nothing in this creates or indicatesa therapeutic relationship.
Please consult with your therapist orseek for one in your area if you are
experiencing mental health symptoms.
Nothing in this podcast shouldbe construed to be specific life
advice, it is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.