May 23, 2025 • 23 mins
A listener shares his struggles with anxiety and attachment issues following a recent breakup. At age 17, Chuck's relationship triggered intense anxiety due to his anxious attachment style, leading to a highly stressful experience. After the relationship ended, Chuck faces persistent anxiety symptoms, fatigue, dizziness, extreme overthinking, and more. Justin discusses the possible states of defense and freeze, the role of safety activation, and offers practical general thoughts for those dealing with similar issues, emphasizing the importance of mindfulness, connecting with friends, and building safety activation as pathways to feeling unstuck.
00:00 Introduction and Listener's Story
00:30 Recognizing and Addressing Anxiety
02:12 Understanding Freeze and Panic Responses
05:56 Living in Survival Mode
08:39 The Importance of Safety Activation
10:17 Practicing Mindfulness and Connection
13:38 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Resources:
🔸 Free resources and course in the Members Center - https://www.justinlmft.com/members
🔸 Join the Unstucking Academy - https://www.stucknotbroken.com/unstuckingacademy
🔸 Polyvagal Intro webpage - https://www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro
🔸 Stuck Not Broken book series - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
🔸 Polyvagal 101 audio series - https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cce134e7-1550-4d33-8e56-738d344c63b0
Crisis resources:
- National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
- National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
- LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
- National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
- Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
- Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, YouTube, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (#99147).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I got a message from a listener.
We will call him Chuck andjust get right into it.
He said, he says, back in May, so abouta year ago, "back in May, I got into
my first ever serious relationship.The relationship-" he's 17, by the way.
The relationship was extremely stressfulfor me and triggered intense anxiety
due to my anxious attachment style.
(00:20):
Something I wasn't evenaware I had at the time.
The relationship lasted four months,and I ultimately just ended it because
I just couldn't handle it anymore."
So first off, Chuck, there's afew, there's four paragraphs here,
but I'll, I'll stop at this one.
First off to Chuck.
Uh, good job recognizing whensomething is too much for you.
(00:43):
Recognizing, I'm, I'm assumingI don't, I don't know.
Or let's say someone's in a situationlike Chuck, recognizing that I am not a
productive member of this relationship andI need to work on myself more in order to
be the best I can be in this relationship.
It takes- that's not easyto, to admit to yourself.
(01:04):
And to follow through on that andrisk feeling, all kinds of stuff.
Uh, that takes, thattakes a lot of bravery.
So good job to Chuck on that.
He goes on to say, "It's now been ninemonths since the breakup, but ever since
then, my life has become a living hell.
I've been experiencing constantanxiety symptoms, not panic attacks,"
(01:27):
he says, "along with fatigue,dizziness, extreme overthinking.
Persistent worry, high stress,headaches, migraines, weakened
immunity, intrusive thoughts, physicalweakness, appetite changes, tightness
in my chest, and a constant senseof carrying a heavy emotional weight
and tension with me wherever I go.
(01:48):
I'm overly reactive, constantly onedge, jumpy and stuck in a mindset
where it feels like nothing will everchange, like I'm trapped forever.
I feel helpless and extremely hopeless."
So, I don't know whatstuck state Chuck is in.
I'm not going to give that diagnosis.
I'm not gonna tell definitivelywhat stuck state Chuck is in.
(02:11):
I'm not saying that whatsoever.
But in general, if someone has thesecluster of things going on, assuming
it's not like a medical issue, likea non uh, polyvagal medical issue,
there's a couple things I latched onto.
Number one- I'm trapped.
That to me, signalsfreeze, helpless, hopeless.
(02:33):
To me, signal shutdown;shutdown is part of freeze.
Uh, but if it was panic, Iwould definitely say yeah,
we're leaning into freeze.
Constant anxiety- that to me, makes mewonder, is it anxiety or low level panic?
(02:55):
I don't know.
I'm not giving a specific definitiveanswer to anybody in particular at all.
I don't know.
Okay.
But if, again, in general, if someonecame to me and said, I have constant
anxiety symptoms, I would rule outis it actually anxiety or is there
actually a low level freeze thatis living within you constantly?
(03:17):
If it's a low level freeze orlow level panic, excuse me.
If it's a low level panic, plusfeeling trapped, plus feeling
helpless, hopeless, to me, that signalseven more indications of freeze.
On top of that, the fatigue, peoplewith chronic freeze oftentimes will
(03:40):
cycle between like freeze activation,so their motor's going, but it's just
locked; it's trapped within; it's frozen.
Then feeling drained and they kindof cycle back and forth between
high intensity and drained.
Extreme overthinking,not just overthinking.
Extreme over to me- again, that isagain, signals to me there might
(04:02):
be some freeze activation going on.
Persistent worry, high stress toal, to me that could be, could
be flight fight, could be freeze.
Intrusive thoughts.
To me, that signals, that couldbe any defensive state, but
that could be a freeze thing.
Physical weakness that's like shut down.
But it could be on the, the fatigue end ofthe freeze fatigue, freeze fatigue cycle.
(04:30):
I think in, in the newestpolyvagal theory book.
Was it the SSP one?
They called that the cyclic defense loop.
I believe it was Freeze to shut.
I'm sorry.
Freeze.
Yeah.
Freeze to shut down.
Freeze to shut down.
Freeze to shut down.
But it also, we could have the samedefense loop of shut down to fight.
Shut down to fight, shut down to fight.
(04:51):
Back to this intrusive thoughts, physicalweakness, appetite changes, tightness
in my chest, tightness in my chest.
That could be flight fightthat could be freeze.
And a constant sense of carrying aheavy emotional weight and tension.
Tension to me, signals freeze also.
So, oh, overly reactive, constantly onedge, jumpy, um, to me, I, I'm hearing
(05:12):
a lot of potential freeze activation.
Freeze has shutdown in it, so there couldbe moments of more freezy kind of stuff.
It could be moments of moreshutdown kind of stuff.
Freeze also has sympatheticactivation, flight and fight.
So one in freeze could have moreof a flavor of sympathetic, but
also sometimes more shutdownand vacillate between the two.
(05:35):
Someone in freeze could have lots offreeze panicky flavor and then, um,
this sort of shutdown fatigue thingand vastly between the two of those.
So again, I, I don't know,Chuck, I have no idea.
I'm not telling you what your state is.
In general, when I hear these thingsfrom a client, I would wanna rule out,
well, how much freeze is in your system?
(05:55):
That that, that's whereI would go with it.
Chuck goes on to say, "Based oneverything I've been reading,
researching, and reflecting on.
I've come to the conclusion thatI'm living in survival mode due
to a dysregulated nervous system.
The tricky part is that I can't fullyidentify which dysregulated state
I'm in, but I know it's not shut downbecause I'm still able to function
(06:16):
outwardly like a normal person.
I can go out, attend school, hang outwith friends, laugh at jokes, feel some
connection and have fleeting moments ofpresence or hope, but deep inside it feels
like there's a constant war going on.
I feel broken and convinced thatI am either going to get worse
or stay stuck like this forever."
(06:36):
You know, we easily could have astuck defensive state, consis- like
chronically- it's just always there.
But in some situations,some circumstances, it's not
there or not there as much.
And what you're describing with theconnection with friends, laughing
at jokes, feeling connection, goingout, going out, going to school.
(06:57):
So being outside, being around otherpeople that we like to be around,
that's an easy way for us to have lessdefensive activation, if not actual
safety activation and feeling connection.
So that that's, that'snot uncommon at all.
Having a stuck defensive statedoesn't mean that you're like
constantly in the worst of it.
More typically what you'll seeis that there's a stuck defensive
(07:18):
state that is worse at sometimes and better at other times.
It's worse at home in the dark, atnighttime maybe, or in the morning when
people wake up, there might be a bigspike of whatever they're going through.
But when they go to work or whenthey go to school or when they see
friends, you know, life is okay.
That's super typical.
It just, it depends on whatsafety cues are coming in.
(07:40):
So when you're laughing with friendsor smiling with friends or you hear
their voice, yeah, you're gonnafeel less defensive activation.
So that that doesn't exactly ruleanything in or out 'cause I know
you had said, uh, you don't knowwhat dysregulated state you're in.
So anyone, we could have any stuckdefensive state and then feel
better in some situations that thatcould be any stuck defensive state.
(08:03):
What I will add to this thoughis for Chuck and for everybody,
good job putting pieces together,researching, reading things, reflecting.
That's awesome.
And even if you can't figure out, I'mactually, I'm surprised in my, in the
Untucking Academy, I, I ask people as theycome in, what stuck state they're in and
it's, I don't share that with anybody.
And I'm surprised how manypeople say they don't know.
(08:26):
So even if we don't know, andChuck, this sounds like you and
maybe many people listening, evenif we don't know, you can still,
there's a lot of good that can come.
You know, even if you don't know.
If you don't know what stuck stateyou're in, you, you probably know that
you don't have enough safety activation.
So you can still practice that.
You can still practice feelingsafe and building up the strength
(08:47):
of your, your safety state.
You don't have to know whatstate you're in to do that.
Maybe it's helpful in generalto kind of act as a container.
Like I, I understand that cognitively,I understand what's happening
within me, and that can helpto reduce defensive activation.
But if you can't figureit out, that's okay.
I would say just focus more on the safetyactivation, focus more on practicing
(09:10):
mindfulness, focus more on connectingwith people, sharing laughter, connecting
with your pets, getting outside, justdo those kind of basic mindfulness
and connection and nature pieces.
If we could do that, that can, thatcan do a lot of good and that can
actually help reduce the intensityof our defensive activation.
And if that can reduce, then we mightbe thinking more clearly and the pieces
(09:32):
might come together, uh, more clearly.
All the stuff that you research andall those free things you collect
into some random folder on your harddrive, all those like free download
this and then blah, blah, blah.
All those things all of a sudden mightmake more sense because you have more
safety in your system and you're like, ohyeah, there was this thing I downloaded
(09:54):
that I can make use of now, or thatbook that makes more sense now, or that
skill or that technique or whatever.
So even if you, I guess pointbeing, if you don't know what your
defensive activation is, that's fine.
Focus more on safety activation.
And that really is, even if youdid know what defensive state you,
you're in, the safety activationis the the next step anyways.
(10:17):
So, feeling safe and consistentlypracticing safety every day, even
in like little moments- that ishuge right now in the Untucking aca,
and this, this is true for anybody.
I don't think we're ever donepracticing and feeling safe.
We have to kind of keepcoming to that uh, every day.
In the Untucking Academy, we're doingthis 30 day challenge where there
(10:39):
are, or you do a 20 day challengespread out over 30 days basically.
You get this mini safety challengeto use your senses mindfully every
day, or one sense mindfully each day.
And there are people taking the challengewho are unstuck or significantly
unstuck-er compared to the past.
(10:59):
I'm in there doing it as well.
There are people that are workingon it and people that are brand new.
So even though there's different levels ofunstuckness taking part in this challenge.
It's still beneficial for the personwho has a lot of defensive activation.
Hopefully they feel safety for the firsttime and again and again and again.
And by the end of the 30 days, theyactually have built their safety state.
(11:19):
Or at least they've built a lotof, uh, familiarity with it.
I had to say that like four times.
That was my fourth take,trying to say that word.
At least they've built a lot offamiliarity with their safety
state at the end of that 30 days.
And now they can keep building itand building it and building it.
So point being, if you don't know whatstate you're in, that's, that's okay.
(11:39):
You can still focus on safety andso much good could come from that
if you do small daily practices.
I don't believe- I don't thinkthat we are broken- anyone
listening to this is broken.
I don't think my clients are broken.
The freaking podcast iscalled Stuck, not Broken.
We're stuck.
If you buy into the polyvagal stuff,in my opinion, you essentially must buy
(12:04):
into the idea that we are temporarilystuck, not broken permanently, not born
this way, but we've been through onething or many things that have left us
in some level of stuck state activation.
I think it applies to everybody.
We each have some level of stuckness.
(12:24):
So no, we're not broken, and thatmeans no things are not hopeless.
And no, you're not helpless.
If you can practice, and it is everybody,if you can practice feeling safety every
day for 30 seconds, you're not helpless.
That that is an avenue-that is an avenue for hope.
That's an avenue for change.
Sound like I'm running forpresident or something.
(12:46):
Maybe like 10, 20 years ago.
Geez.
Um, that's an avenue though.
Seriously.
So things are not hopeless and, andyou're not helpless because you're
learning, you're reading, you'retrying to put things in practice.
You're reflecting, you'rereaching out, asking for help.
You're- so that's not helpless.
You're, you're already doing things.
(13:08):
Now, the, the goal might be tofocus more on safety and yeah,
maybe figure out what stuck stateyou're in, but focus on safety.
That is not helpless.
That is, that is hope.
There there is, there's an avenuehere that is providing hope, that's
providing motivation, encouragement,some positivity that, that is hope.
So, not hopeless, not helpless,and definitely not broken.
(13:30):
That does not compute.
That does not compute.
So congratulations forChuck and everybody.
You're not broken.
You're maybe we're just stuck.
Chuck wraps it up and says, "Idon't feel like myself anymore.
I was living the best time of mylife before all this happened.
I can't take it anymore.
Please, can you tellme there's still hope?
That I can find myself againand feel normal someday.
(13:51):
I'm still 17.
I'm so young and I desperatelyneed some advice by someone
who has knowledge on this.
You dear Mr. Justin are the bestdestination I I could ask for help."
I'm honored, Chuck.
Um, so I've already answered like,yeah, there's still hope in general.
For you, I would say so as well.
Yeah.
There's still hope that I canfind herself and find herself
(14:12):
and be normal again someday.
I don't know what normal means,but in my opinion, as we get more
and more and more unstuck, we don'tfind the way things used to be.
We actually find, Ithink, a better version.
The way things used to be.
Probably are not as cutout as we think they were.
We often times, especially my clients,live a life where there's some St
(14:42):
stuck defensive state, but we dealwith it or don't deal with it.
We cope with it through making ourselvesfeel better by binge watching tv,
overeating, undereating, workingout, overly working out drug use.
You know, like just tons of stuffthat we do to make ourselves feel
(15:04):
better, but it doesn't solve it.
So that doesn't last very long.
Or it can last for actually forquite a while, but eventually
it doesn't work anymore.
And that's where things really change.
That's where the defensiveactivation takes over because
the old strategies are no longercontaining the defensive activation.
Someone says, someone says to me,I wanna be back to my old self.
In my mind, I'm like, well, your old selfprobably was going through the same stuff.
(15:28):
You just were blocking itout and that's not healthy.
Why would you wanna go back to that?
So when we get more and moreunstuck, we don't, I don't think
we go back to our old self.
We become this other, well, we're,you're still yourself, but you become
the unstuck version of yourself.
You become someone who actually hasmore safety in their system, more
(15:49):
capacity for connection and peace andmindfulness and connecting with others
and yourself and the environment.
That's, that can't bethe same person, right?
So I don't know why we want that.
If you're honest with yourself,
it's probably not the way you remember.
(16:10):
You know, maybe you kicked butt in life,maybe you kicked butt in your business
and you got a ton of stuff done, butyou were ignoring what was happening
within you, and you took that activationand you put it towards your business.
Or you took that activation andyou put it into, uh, eating too
much sugar . Life probably wasnot as good as you think it was.
(16:31):
You probably were not ashappy as you think you were.
I don't know you inparticular, dear listener.
Chuck, this is not about you.
Um, in general.
In general, it things probably weren'tas great as you thought they were.
So let's not go back to that.
Let's go back to, or let's moveforward into whatever the hell
comes of you when you get unstuck.
(16:52):
And we don't know what that is andthat's gonna be beautiful, you know?
So, Chuck, I hope that you do get unstuckfrom whatever you're going through
right now, and I hope you do deal withwhatever attachment stuff you mentioned,
but we don't know what 18-year-oldChuck is gonna be like ...19, 20.
You know what I mean?
Like it's not gonna, I don't think it'llbe the same version of you that you
(17:12):
think you're leaving behind, so, or thatyou're, where you'll never get back to.
one final thought is that each ofus has pains that we're carrying
around from the past, obviously,and then something new happens.
And there's, we can, wecan compartmentalize these.
We can look at the new thing like this.
(17:33):
I went through a breakup and now I haveall these feelings that are coming up
inside of me that, uh, are a bit much.
Those are obviously connected to theother past stuff, but it's okay to deal
with and compartmentalize- these feelingsI'm having present day are connected
to the past- but really we're triggeredby this more recent thing, so I'm gonna
(17:56):
focus on these feelings as you do that.
Past feelings might come up, and it'sokay to, to like put those in the back
burner and respectfully tell those pastfeelings, you know, it's not time yet
and I'm gonna give you more attentionwhen I'm ready to, but right now I'm
gonna focus more on the present day stuffuntil I can handle going into the past.
(18:17):
You'll know you can go into the past-past feelings- because you want to,
because you feel self-compassion,because you feel curious about all
of you, not just the good stuff.
As you build your safety state,you'll be able to handle the,
the more present day feelings.
As those clear up the pastemotions are gonna get excited
(18:38):
and say, now pay attention to me.
Give us some love.
And if you can say to the pastemotions, okay, I'm ready.
You know, I have compassion for youand I want to feel you, and I want to
just let you be present here with me.
I know we're personifyingour feelings here.
But if you can do that, if you have actualcompassion and curiosity about the past
stuff, then it's time to feel into it.
(18:59):
Not easy.
You have to have a lot of safety,state activation and really be
anchored in your safety state in thepresent moment to to allow those past
emotions and experiences to surface.
So I guess to bring it back towhat Chuck was saying- there might
be a present day context that'striggering all kinds of dysregulation.
(19:19):
So it's okay to compartmentalizeand feel and just sort of soften
and deal with those things.
And then as you're ready tothen turn to the past emotions.
The, actually one morething I'll add in here.
Saying I you, and not, again,not Chuck, but everybody saying
I have attachment issues.
That's okay, I get it.
(19:40):
But what does that mean?
What does that feel like?
And what I would invite youto do is don't explain it.
Describe it.
I have a client, young woman, whohas attachment issues and she wants
to work on her attachment issues.
And I say, okay, well, wellwhat does that feel like?
And she starts to explain,well, parents and this and that.
(20:02):
And it's like, no, no, no, not,I don't want you to explain it.
I want you to describe it.
What is it you're going through?
What, when you say you have attachmentissues, how could you tell on your body?
What does that feel like?
And what that's gonna lead you tois, well, it feels like hopelessness.
It feels like helplessness.
Maybe it feels like abandonment.
It feels like rejection.
It feels like insecurity.
(20:22):
It feels alone.
So instead of explaining the attachmentissue, I would encourage each of us,
what does it feel like if you can, thatwould be one of those deeper level older
emotions that are still hugely relevantday to day, but we can compartmentalize
those and, and give attention to thoseas we are ready to, not right away as
(20:46):
we are ready to with lots of safety.
And then when you're ready to, don'texplain, describe, describe what
you're going through emotionallyor in your body related to whatever
attachment issues that you say you have.
If you've got attachment issues, ifyou've got a breakup, the feelings
you have from it are normal.
It's okay to feel that way.
(21:07):
You're not broken, you're not defective.
It is a normal response orexpected response to loss.
Like in a, in a breakup,you're losing something.
There's grief there.
At the very least.
There might be anger, there mightbe anxiety, and now we feel alone.
Now we feel insecure.
All kinds of stuff might come upand those, that's totally expected
(21:29):
and it's okay to feel that way.
We just wanna balance it outwith being in the present moment.
With spending time with friends, with,you know, checking on our breath.
We just wanna balance it out.
That, that, that's, that's it.
Otherwise, it's super normal.
If you had attachment issues growing up,the way you feel about it now is expected.
It's normal.
It's okay to feel that way.
If you feel alone or, or, um,lost or abandoned or rejected
(21:53):
or whatever- that makes sense.
You know what you feel.
It makes sense why you feel that way.
Anybody with your life probablywould feel the same way.
And so give yourself permissionto feel that way with safety.
With safety.
Okay, that's it.
Hopefully this was helpful for you.
Dear listener, Chuck, thank youfor writing in with the question.
I love answering questions.
(22:14):
If you have one for, uh, yourself,dear listener, send it in.
And if it's, uh, something that sparksmy, my inspiration, then uh, I would
love to address it here on the podcast.
Thank you again, Chuck.
As far as like everyone, foras far as your next step.
There.
There's so much good that can comefrom those mini mindfulness practices.
(22:36):
Tapping into stuck defense is probablytoo much, so focus on using one of
your senses for 30 seconds once a day.
Start there.
I know it's small, but thatis absolutely a step forward.
If that's not something you're doingcurrently, please take the time to
do that every day for 30 seconds.
And then build on it from there.
(22:58):
Thanks again for joining me.
Bye.
or they've at least built a lotof Fili, Fili, or at least they've
built a lot of famili, or atleast they've, or at least they,
I got a message from a listener.
We will call him Chuck andjust get right into it.
He said, he says, back in May, so abouta year ago, "back in May, I got into
my first ever serious relationship.The relationship-" he's 17, by the way.
The relationship was extremely stressfulfor me and triggered intense anxiety
due to my anxious attachment style.
(00:20):
Something I wasn't evenaware I had at the time.
The relationship lasted four months,and I ultimately just ended it because
I just couldn't handle it anymore."
So first off, Chuck, there's afew, there's four paragraphs here,
but I'll, I'll stop at this one.
First off to Chuck.
Uh, good job recognizing whensomething is too much for you.
(00:43):
Recognizing, I'm, I'm assumingI don't, I don't know.
Or let's say someone's in a situationlike Chuck, recognizing that I am not a
productive member of this relationship andI need to work on myself more in order to
be the best I can be in this relationship.
It takes- that's not easyto, to admit to yourself.
(01:04):
And to follow through on that andrisk feeling, all kinds of stuff.
Uh, that takes, thattakes a lot of bravery.
So good job to Chuck on that.
He goes on to say, "It's now been ninemonths since the breakup, but ever since
then, my life has become a living hell.
I've been experiencing constantanxiety symptoms, not panic attacks,"
(01:27):
he says, "along with fatigue,dizziness, extreme overthinking.
Persistent worry, high stress,headaches, migraines, weakened
immunity, intrusive thoughts, physicalweakness, appetite changes, tightness
in my chest, and a constant senseof carrying a heavy emotional weight
and tension with me wherever I go.
(01:48):
I'm overly reactive, constantly onedge, jumpy and stuck in a mindset
where it feels like nothing will everchange, like I'm trapped forever.
I feel helpless and extremely hopeless."
So, I don't know whatstuck state Chuck is in.
I'm not going to give that diagnosis.
I'm not gonna tell definitivelywhat stuck state Chuck is in.
(02:11):
I'm not saying that whatsoever.
But in general, if someone has thesecluster of things going on, assuming
it's not like a medical issue, likea non uh, polyvagal medical issue,
there's a couple things I latched onto.
Number one- I'm trapped.
That to me, signalsfreeze, helpless, hopeless.
(02:33):
To me, signal shutdown;shutdown is part of freeze.
Uh, but if it was panic, Iwould definitely say yeah,
we're leaning into freeze.
Constant anxiety- that to me, makes mewonder, is it anxiety or low level panic?
(02:55):
I don't know.
I'm not giving a specific definitiveanswer to anybody in particular at all.
I don't know.
Okay.
But if, again, in general, if someonecame to me and said, I have constant
anxiety symptoms, I would rule outis it actually anxiety or is there
actually a low level freeze thatis living within you constantly?
(03:17):
If it's a low level freeze orlow level panic, excuse me.
If it's a low level panic, plusfeeling trapped, plus feeling
helpless, hopeless, to me, that signalseven more indications of freeze.
On top of that, the fatigue, peoplewith chronic freeze oftentimes will
(03:40):
cycle between like freeze activation,so their motor's going, but it's just
locked; it's trapped within; it's frozen.
Then feeling drained and they kindof cycle back and forth between
high intensity and drained.
Extreme overthinking,not just overthinking.
Extreme over to me- again, that isagain, signals to me there might
(04:02):
be some freeze activation going on.
Persistent worry, high stress toal, to me that could be, could
be flight fight, could be freeze.
Intrusive thoughts.
To me, that signals, that couldbe any defensive state, but
that could be a freeze thing.
Physical weakness that's like shut down.
But it could be on the, the fatigue end ofthe freeze fatigue, freeze fatigue cycle.
(04:30):
I think in, in the newestpolyvagal theory book.
Was it the SSP one?
They called that the cyclic defense loop.
I believe it was Freeze to shut.
I'm sorry.
Freeze.
Yeah.
Freeze to shut down.
Freeze to shut down.
Freeze to shut down.
But it also, we could have the samedefense loop of shut down to fight.
Shut down to fight, shut down to fight.
(04:51):
Back to this intrusive thoughts, physicalweakness, appetite changes, tightness
in my chest, tightness in my chest.
That could be flight fightthat could be freeze.
And a constant sense of carrying aheavy emotional weight and tension.
Tension to me, signals freeze also.
So, oh, overly reactive, constantly onedge, jumpy, um, to me, I, I'm hearing
(05:12):
a lot of potential freeze activation.
Freeze has shutdown in it, so there couldbe moments of more freezy kind of stuff.
It could be moments of moreshutdown kind of stuff.
Freeze also has sympatheticactivation, flight and fight.
So one in freeze could have moreof a flavor of sympathetic, but
also sometimes more shutdownand vacillate between the two.
(05:35):
Someone in freeze could have lots offreeze panicky flavor and then, um,
this sort of shutdown fatigue thingand vastly between the two of those.
So again, I, I don't know,Chuck, I have no idea.
I'm not telling you what your state is.
In general, when I hear these thingsfrom a client, I would wanna rule out,
well, how much freeze is in your system?
(05:55):
That that, that's whereI would go with it.
Chuck goes on to say, "Based oneverything I've been reading,
researching, and reflecting on.
I've come to the conclusion thatI'm living in survival mode due
to a dysregulated nervous system.
The tricky part is that I can't fullyidentify which dysregulated state
I'm in, but I know it's not shut downbecause I'm still able to function
(06:16):
outwardly like a normal person.
I can go out, attend school, hang outwith friends, laugh at jokes, feel some
connection and have fleeting moments ofpresence or hope, but deep inside it feels
like there's a constant war going on.
I feel broken and convinced thatI am either going to get worse
or stay stuck like this forever."
(06:36):
You know, we easily could have astuck defensive state, consis- like
chronically- it's just always there.
But in some situations,some circumstances, it's not
there or not there as much.
And what you're describing with theconnection with friends, laughing
at jokes, feeling connection, goingout, going out, going to school.
(06:57):
So being outside, being around otherpeople that we like to be around,
that's an easy way for us to have lessdefensive activation, if not actual
safety activation and feeling connection.
So that that's, that'snot uncommon at all.
Having a stuck defensive statedoesn't mean that you're like
constantly in the worst of it.
More typically what you'll seeis that there's a stuck defensive
(07:18):
state that is worse at sometimes and better at other times.
It's worse at home in the dark, atnighttime maybe, or in the morning when
people wake up, there might be a bigspike of whatever they're going through.
But when they go to work or whenthey go to school or when they see
friends, you know, life is okay.
That's super typical.
It just, it depends on whatsafety cues are coming in.
(07:40):
So when you're laughing with friendsor smiling with friends or you hear
their voice, yeah, you're gonnafeel less defensive activation.
So that that doesn't exactly ruleanything in or out 'cause I know
you had said, uh, you don't knowwhat dysregulated state you're in.
So anyone, we could have any stuckdefensive state and then feel
better in some situations that thatcould be any stuck defensive state.
(08:03):
What I will add to this thoughis for Chuck and for everybody,
good job putting pieces together,researching, reading things, reflecting.
That's awesome.
And even if you can't figure out, I'mactually, I'm surprised in my, in the
Untucking Academy, I, I ask people as theycome in, what stuck state they're in and
it's, I don't share that with anybody.
And I'm surprised how manypeople say they don't know.
(08:26):
So even if we don't know, andChuck, this sounds like you and
maybe many people listening, evenif we don't know, you can still,
there's a lot of good that can come.
You know, even if you don't know.
If you don't know what stuck stateyou're in, you, you probably know that
you don't have enough safety activation.
So you can still practice that.
You can still practice feelingsafe and building up the strength
(08:47):
of your, your safety state.
You don't have to know whatstate you're in to do that.
Maybe it's helpful in generalto kind of act as a container.
Like I, I understand that cognitively,I understand what's happening
within me, and that can helpto reduce defensive activation.
But if you can't figureit out, that's okay.
I would say just focus more on the safetyactivation, focus more on practicing
(09:10):
mindfulness, focus more on connectingwith people, sharing laughter, connecting
with your pets, getting outside, justdo those kind of basic mindfulness
and connection and nature pieces.
If we could do that, that can, thatcan do a lot of good and that can
actually help reduce the intensityof our defensive activation.
And if that can reduce, then we mightbe thinking more clearly and the pieces
(09:32):
might come together, uh, more clearly.
All the stuff that you research andall those free things you collect
into some random folder on your harddrive, all those like free download
this and then blah, blah, blah.
All those things all of a sudden mightmake more sense because you have more
safety in your system and you're like, ohyeah, there was this thing I downloaded
(09:54):
that I can make use of now, or thatbook that makes more sense now, or that
skill or that technique or whatever.
So even if you, I guess pointbeing, if you don't know what your
defensive activation is, that's fine.
Focus more on safety activation.
And that really is, even if youdid know what defensive state you,
you're in, the safety activationis the the next step anyways.
(10:17):
So, feeling safe and consistentlypracticing safety every day, even
in like little moments- that ishuge right now in the Untucking aca,
and this, this is true for anybody.
I don't think we're ever donepracticing and feeling safe.
We have to kind of keepcoming to that uh, every day.
In the Untucking Academy, we're doingthis 30 day challenge where there
(10:39):
are, or you do a 20 day challengespread out over 30 days basically.
You get this mini safety challengeto use your senses mindfully every
day, or one sense mindfully each day.
And there are people taking the challengewho are unstuck or significantly
unstuck-er compared to the past.
(10:59):
I'm in there doing it as well.
There are people that are workingon it and people that are brand new.
So even though there's different levels ofunstuckness taking part in this challenge.
It's still beneficial for the personwho has a lot of defensive activation.
Hopefully they feel safety for the firsttime and again and again and again.
And by the end of the 30 days, theyactually have built their safety state.
(11:19):
Or at least they've built a lotof, uh, familiarity with it.
I had to say that like four times.
That was my fourth take,trying to say that word.
At least they've built a lot offamiliarity with their safety
state at the end of that 30 days.
And now they can keep building itand building it and building it.
So point being, if you don't know whatstate you're in, that's, that's okay.
(11:39):
You can still focus on safety andso much good could come from that
if you do small daily practices.
I don't believe- I don't thinkthat we are broken- anyone
listening to this is broken.
I don't think my clients are broken.
The freaking podcast iscalled Stuck, not Broken.
We're stuck.
If you buy into the polyvagal stuff,in my opinion, you essentially must buy
(12:04):
into the idea that we are temporarilystuck, not broken permanently, not born
this way, but we've been through onething or many things that have left us
in some level of stuck state activation.
I think it applies to everybody.
We each have some level of stuckness.
(12:24):
So no, we're not broken, and thatmeans no things are not hopeless.
And no, you're not helpless.
If you can practice, and it is everybody,if you can practice feeling safety every
day for 30 seconds, you're not helpless.
That that is an avenue-that is an avenue for hope.
That's an avenue for change.
Sound like I'm running forpresident or something.
(12:46):
Maybe like 10, 20 years ago.
Geez.
Um, that's an avenue though.
Seriously.
So things are not hopeless and, andyou're not helpless because you're
learning, you're reading, you'retrying to put things in practice.
You're reflecting, you'rereaching out, asking for help.
You're- so that's not helpless.
You're, you're already doing things.
(13:08):
Now, the, the goal might be tofocus more on safety and yeah,
maybe figure out what stuck stateyou're in, but focus on safety.
That is not helpless.
That is, that is hope.
There there is, there's an avenuehere that is providing hope, that's
providing motivation, encouragement,some positivity that, that is hope.
So, not hopeless, not helpless,and definitely not broken.
(13:30):
That does not compute.
That does not compute.
So congratulations forChuck and everybody.
You're not broken.
You're maybe we're just stuck.
Chuck wraps it up and says, "Idon't feel like myself anymore.
I was living the best time of mylife before all this happened.
I can't take it anymore.
Please, can you tellme there's still hope?
That I can find myself againand feel normal someday.
(13:51):
I'm still 17.
I'm so young and I desperatelyneed some advice by someone
who has knowledge on this.
You dear Mr. Justin are the bestdestination I I could ask for help."
I'm honored, Chuck.
Um, so I've already answered like,yeah, there's still hope in general.
For you, I would say so as well.
Yeah.
There's still hope that I canfind herself and find herself
(14:12):
and be normal again someday.
I don't know what normal means,but in my opinion, as we get more
and more and more unstuck, we don'tfind the way things used to be.
We actually find, Ithink, a better version.
The way things used to be.
Probably are not as cutout as we think they were.
We often times, especially my clients,live a life where there's some St
(14:42):
stuck defensive state, but we dealwith it or don't deal with it.
We cope with it through making ourselvesfeel better by binge watching tv,
overeating, undereating, workingout, overly working out drug use.
You know, like just tons of stuffthat we do to make ourselves feel
(15:04):
better, but it doesn't solve it.
So that doesn't last very long.
Or it can last for actually forquite a while, but eventually
it doesn't work anymore.
And that's where things really change.
That's where the defensiveactivation takes over because
the old strategies are no longercontaining the defensive activation.
Someone says, someone says to me,I wanna be back to my old self.
In my mind, I'm like, well, your old selfprobably was going through the same stuff.
(15:28):
You just were blocking itout and that's not healthy.
Why would you wanna go back to that?
So when we get more and moreunstuck, we don't, I don't think
we go back to our old self.
We become this other, well, we're,you're still yourself, but you become
the unstuck version of yourself.
You become someone who actually hasmore safety in their system, more
(15:49):
capacity for connection and peace andmindfulness and connecting with others
and yourself and the environment.
That's, that can't bethe same person, right?
So I don't know why we want that.
If you're honest with yourself,
it's probably not the way you remember.
(16:10):
You know, maybe you kicked butt in life,maybe you kicked butt in your business
and you got a ton of stuff done, butyou were ignoring what was happening
within you, and you took that activationand you put it towards your business.
Or you took that activation andyou put it into, uh, eating too
much sugar . Life probably wasnot as good as you think it was.
(16:31):
You probably were not ashappy as you think you were.
I don't know you inparticular, dear listener.
Chuck, this is not about you.
Um, in general.
In general, it things probably weren'tas great as you thought they were.
So let's not go back to that.
Let's go back to, or let's moveforward into whatever the hell
comes of you when you get unstuck.
(16:52):
And we don't know what that is andthat's gonna be beautiful, you know?
So, Chuck, I hope that you do get unstuckfrom whatever you're going through
right now, and I hope you do deal withwhatever attachment stuff you mentioned,
but we don't know what 18-year-oldChuck is gonna be like ...19, 20.
You know what I mean?
Like it's not gonna, I don't think it'llbe the same version of you that you
(17:12):
think you're leaving behind, so, or thatyou're, where you'll never get back to.
one final thought is that each ofus has pains that we're carrying
around from the past, obviously,and then something new happens.
And there's, we can, wecan compartmentalize these.
We can look at the new thing like this.
(17:33):
I went through a breakup and now I haveall these feelings that are coming up
inside of me that, uh, are a bit much.
Those are obviously connected to theother past stuff, but it's okay to deal
with and compartmentalize- these feelingsI'm having present day are connected
to the past- but really we're triggeredby this more recent thing, so I'm gonna
(17:56):
focus on these feelings as you do that.
Past feelings might come up, and it'sokay to, to like put those in the back
burner and respectfully tell those pastfeelings, you know, it's not time yet
and I'm gonna give you more attentionwhen I'm ready to, but right now I'm
gonna focus more on the present day stuffuntil I can handle going into the past.
(18:17):
You'll know you can go into the past-past feelings- because you want to,
because you feel self-compassion,because you feel curious about all
of you, not just the good stuff.
As you build your safety state,you'll be able to handle the,
the more present day feelings.
As those clear up the pastemotions are gonna get excited
(18:38):
and say, now pay attention to me.
Give us some love.
And if you can say to the pastemotions, okay, I'm ready.
You know, I have compassion for youand I want to feel you, and I want to
just let you be present here with me.
I know we're personifyingour feelings here.
But if you can do that, if you have actualcompassion and curiosity about the past
stuff, then it's time to feel into it.
(18:59):
Not easy.
You have to have a lot of safety,state activation and really be
anchored in your safety state in thepresent moment to to allow those past
emotions and experiences to surface.
So I guess to bring it back towhat Chuck was saying- there might
be a present day context that'striggering all kinds of dysregulation.
(19:19):
So it's okay to compartmentalizeand feel and just sort of soften
and deal with those things.
And then as you're ready tothen turn to the past emotions.
The, actually one morething I'll add in here.
Saying I you, and not, again,not Chuck, but everybody saying
I have attachment issues.
That's okay, I get it.
(19:40):
But what does that mean?
What does that feel like?
And what I would invite youto do is don't explain it.
Describe it.
I have a client, young woman, whohas attachment issues and she wants
to work on her attachment issues.
And I say, okay, well, wellwhat does that feel like?
And she starts to explain,well, parents and this and that.
(20:02):
And it's like, no, no, no, not,I don't want you to explain it.
I want you to describe it.
What is it you're going through?
What, when you say you have attachmentissues, how could you tell on your body?
What does that feel like?
And what that's gonna lead you tois, well, it feels like hopelessness.
It feels like helplessness.
Maybe it feels like abandonment.
It feels like rejection.
It feels like insecurity.
(20:22):
It feels alone.
So instead of explaining the attachmentissue, I would encourage each of us,
what does it feel like if you can, thatwould be one of those deeper level older
emotions that are still hugely relevantday to day, but we can compartmentalize
those and, and give attention to thoseas we are ready to, not right away as
(20:46):
we are ready to with lots of safety.
And then when you're ready to, don'texplain, describe, describe what
you're going through emotionallyor in your body related to whatever
attachment issues that you say you have.
If you've got attachment issues, ifyou've got a breakup, the feelings
you have from it are normal.
It's okay to feel that way.
(21:07):
You're not broken, you're not defective.
It is a normal response orexpected response to loss.
Like in a, in a breakup,you're losing something.
There's grief there.
At the very least.
There might be anger, there mightbe anxiety, and now we feel alone.
Now we feel insecure.
All kinds of stuff might come upand those, that's totally expected
(21:29):
and it's okay to feel that way.
We just wanna balance it outwith being in the present moment.
With spending time with friends, with,you know, checking on our breath.
We just wanna balance it out.
That, that, that's, that's it.
Otherwise, it's super normal.
If you had attachment issues growing up,the way you feel about it now is expected.
It's normal.
It's okay to feel that way.
If you feel alone or, or, um,lost or abandoned or rejected
(21:53):
or whatever- that makes sense.
You know what you feel.
It makes sense why you feel that way.
Anybody with your life probablywould feel the same way.
And so give yourself permissionto feel that way with safety.
With safety.
Okay, that's it.
Hopefully this was helpful for you.
Dear listener, Chuck, thank youfor writing in with the question.
I love answering questions.
(22:14):
If you have one for, uh, yourself,dear listener, send it in.
And if it's, uh, something that sparksmy, my inspiration, then uh, I would
love to address it here on the podcast.
Thank you again, Chuck.
As far as like everyone, foras far as your next step.
There.
There's so much good that can comefrom those mini mindfulness practices.
(22:36):
Tapping into stuck defense is probablytoo much, so focus on using one of
your senses for 30 seconds once a day.
Start there.
I know it's small, but thatis absolutely a step forward.
If that's not something you're doingcurrently, please take the time to
do that every day for 30 seconds.
And then build on it from there.
(22:58):
Thanks again for joining me.
Bye.
or they've at least built a lotof Fili, Fili, or at least they've
built a lot of famili, or atleast they've, or at least they,
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