February 7, 2025 • 24 mins
Justin Sunseri explains the concept of dorsal vagal shutdown, a state of immobilization and resource conservation in the face of life threats. He outlines how this shutdown affects emotions, thoughts, behaviors, and connections with others, making it difficult for individuals to function normally. Justin provides insights on recognizing shutdown in loved ones, emphasizing the importance of compassion, validation, and meaningful connection. He offers practical steps for supporting someone in shutdown, including validating their experience, normalizing their response, and connecting with them without adding pressure. The episode concludes with a parenting example illustrating effective ways to help a loved one move out of shutdown.
00:00 Stuck in Shutdown: A Guide to Recognizing and Helping Loved Ones (SNB 248)
01:17 What is Dorsal Vagal Shutdown?
03:14 Shutdown and Isolation
04:54 Demeanor and Body Posture of Shutdown
07:47 Vocal Changes in Shutdown
09:08 Thinking and Shutdown
11:05 Emotions and Shutdown
12:06 Shutdown and Masking
13:07 Validating Your Loved One's Shutdown
14:23 Normalize Your Loved One's Shutdown
15:29 Let your Loved One be in Shutdown
16:37 Connect With Your Loved One in Shutdown
17:55 Example of Parents Helping Their Adult Child in Shutdown
22:29 Outro and Reflections for You
23:32 Learn More About Shutdown With this Playlist
🔸 Shutdown Experiences Playlist - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0wCusCOxhNUTWUAnJke_hpmNEEQ0atZZ
Resources:
🔸 Free resources and course in the Members Center - https://www.justinlmft.com/members
🔸 Join the Unstucking Academy - https://www.stucknotbroken.com/unstuckingacademy
🔸 Polyvagal Intro webpage - https://www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro
🔸 Stuck Not Broken book series - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
🔸 Polyvagal 101 audio series - https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cce134e7-1550-4d33-8e56-738d344c63b0
Crisis resources:
- National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
- National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
- LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
- National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
- Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
- Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, YouTube, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (#99147).
Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast! When you do, you will immediately get the next episode as soon as it's available. What's better than having the next episode of SNB ready and waiting for you? (Nothing, that's what.)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
A dorsal vagal shutdown is one ofthree primary autonomic states.
(00:05):
It occurs when one can't existin their ventral vagal safety
state, and when sympatheticflight and fight haven't worked.
The body collapses orplays dead at the extreme.
It's a normal biological reactionin the face of a life threat.
But we can get stuck ina dorsal vagal shutdown.
Day to day, it shows up in ouremotions, our thoughts, our behaviors,
(00:28):
and even our connections with others.
It directly impacts our life, ourhappiness, and our motivation.
You likely have somebody in yourlife who is stuck in shutdown.
Maybe somebody at your work,or even in your own home.
Heck, you may be stuckin shutdown yourself.
(00:49):
But, I'm going to focus onhow to recognize it in others.
When we recognize shutdown inothers, it might help us to feel more
compassion and less judgment for them.
My name is Justin Sunseri.
I am a therapist and coach whohelps you live more calmly,
confidently, and connectedlywithout psychobabble or woo woo.
(01:10):
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This podcast is not therapy, noris it intended to replace therapy.
What's a dorsal vagal shutdown?
Let's understand shutdown a tad morebefore discussing how it might show
up in the people that you care about.
Biologically, shutdown isa state of immobilization.
Specifically, collapsed and limp.
(01:31):
Freeze is also a state ofimmobilization, but tense.
Shutdown is also a state of conservation.
The body is slowing down, or shuttingdown, its processes to conserve resources
in anticipation of coming out of shutdown.
When it comes out of shutdown it emergesinto sympathetic flight fight activation
(01:52):
and then uses that energy to createspace, escape, and return to safety.
So shutdown is collapsed limplyand conserving resources.
Everything is slowed down.
Shutdown also requiresreduced stimulation.
The external world isoverwhelming, it's too much.
(02:13):
Shutdown needs less, it needs lessnoise, less light, less people even.
On that note, shutdown'sactually usually pretty alone.
In shutdown, one disconnects from others,and even from themselves to some degree.
So, let's understand shutdownas a state of collapsed and
(02:34):
disconnected immobilization.
Okay, now we're ready to learn howshutdown shows up in others, like
the person that you're thinkingof that prompted you to click on
this episode in the first place.
Is what I'm going to sharetrue for everyone all the time?
Of course not.
But these are fairly predictablepresentations of shutdown.
(02:56):
At the end of this episode, justto throw a wrench into everything,
I'll share how this actually mightnot be true at all at the same time.
So what I'm giving you are likelyvery common presentations of shutdown,
but at the extreme, shutdown couldpresent much differently as well.
shutdown and isolation.
Someone in shutdown, includingyour loved one, may withdraw.
(03:19):
They might be isolating themselves.
This can be as extreme as lockingthemselves in a dark room and doom
scrolling for hours or oversleeping.
Being alone feels better forsomebody who's in shutdown.
Other people are potentially overwhelming.
Not to mention the sounds, thecrowds, and the lighting of the places
(03:42):
that we typically go to every day.
You might go to the grocerystore and have no problem.
But Someone in shutdown could struggleto get out of their front door because
they're so physically exhausted.
And then when they get to thestore, that might be another huge
challenge to get into that next door.
Remember, shutdown is a state of collapse.
(04:04):
Their body is at leastprepared to collapse, not to
mobilize and go to the store.
And if they make it to thestore they could legitimately
struggle with overstimulation.
Too many people, too manysights, too many sounds, the
lighting might be too harsh even.
You might think, "Well, too bad. Theyneed to get over it, or that's an
excuse for laziness." I'm not askingyou to be okay with the shutdown that
(04:28):
your loved one is struggling with.
I'm not asking you to be okay with howthey're handling it, or not handling it.
I don't think the person in shutdownis okay with it either, but whether you
accept it or not, whether you're okaywith it or not, these are potential
obstacles for somebody in shutdown.
This is their reality, orat least a piece of it.
(04:51):
the demeanor and body posture of shutdown
When someone is stuck in shutdown, you'llsee it in their faces and their body.
Again, shutdown is about collapse.
So someone in shutdown willhave a collapsed look to them.
Maybe not lying on the floorlike literally collapsed, but
slumped, slouched, shriveled.
(05:12):
They appear smaller.
This is how they show up tomy therapy office, no matter
what age they are, honestly.
Teens are probably more obviousabout it, but adults do it too.
As mobility comes back into their system,they can sit upright, they can lean
forward, they think and they plan withmore motivation and more intention.
(05:33):
Also, somebody in shutdown, andmaybe this is describing your loved
one, They'll also have unique facialqualities, and by unique I mean, uh,
they kind of don't have facial qualities.
I mean, they do, obviously.
They still have faces, but the lifein their face is just kind of gone.
They're just sort of flat.
(05:55):
There's no emotion in their faces.
They don't smile.
Their eyes are open, but only partially.
Especially compared to FlightFight, which are more wide open.
Their upper cheeks, the person inshutdown, they aren't doing much
and eye crinkles don't reallyform on the corners of their eyes.
Of course, I'm speaking very generallyand really more to the extreme one
(06:16):
dimensional presentation of shutdown.
There's obviously a variety ofpossible presentations, but you're
likely to see these types of things.
When you're with someone who's inshutdown, you might feel yourself
pulled down, heavier, less hopeful.
It's not their fault, they'renot imposing that feeling on you.
(06:36):
You, as an empathetic, caringperson, are feeling a bit of
what it's like to be them.
That's a bit of theirexperience, day in and day out.
Someone in Shutdown also hugelystruggles with eye contact.
They tend to look down.
In Flight Fight, we look away also,but more around the environment, almost
(06:59):
looking for danger, scanning for danger.
Or in Flight Fight, our eyes arewider open, staring at the person
in front of us and maybe evencreating uncomfy eye contact.
But in shutdown, they look down.
Like, they lack theenergy to even look up.
Maintaining eye contactis pretty much impossible.
(07:22):
That requires, maintaining eye contactrequires a lot of safety in the system.
So, if you're someone that needs eyecontact to feel like you're being listened
to and understood, You're kind of SOL.
If the body's in a state of collapse,and thinks it's life's in threat, then
making eye contact and facial emotivenessare just not priorities for that body.
(07:46):
vocal changes in shutdown
in shutdown, the voice becomes flat.
Just like facial affect and body posture.
It's there, but there's no life in it.
Very monotone and leaning more intothe deeper end of the vocal spectrum,
no matter what their gender is.
In safety, we have somethingcalled vocal prosody, which is
(08:08):
a sing songy quality of voice.
Vocal prosody enablesus to go high and low.
I can't do a very good high voice.
To go high and low.
Vocal prosody allows us to express ouremotions and our intent through voice.
In a defensive state,that's not really possible.
(08:30):
Shutdown, in particular, as adefensive state, is flat in prosody.
And it's also slower.
There isn't much energy in whatsomeone in shutdown is saying.
Sometimes it even seems like theystruggle to get through the sentence.
It's not uncommon for someone in shutdownto think before they speak, inhale,
and then say one sentence that bypasseseverything that was being talked about.
(08:54):
For example, if you ask someone inshutdown what motivates them, they
might pause, breathe in, and then say,"What's the point?" That one sentence
may be the best they can muster.
thinking and shutdown
On that note, let's touch upon thecognitions of someone who is in shutdown.
The thinking.
(09:14):
Just like face and just likevoice, thinking is flat, devoid
of energy, not much life in it.
Very pessimistic.
Lacking hope.
Helpless, even.
Again, this is at the extreme.
Someone in shutdown can totallyhave a job they excel at, but
(09:35):
outside that context, they fallinto typical shutdown experiences.
Or when a shutdown individual is in adifferent environment, like nature, or
with a loved one, or with their pet, insilence, they're less shut down, more
mobile, and maybe even more hopeful.
In shutdown, again, the body's preparingto die, so thinking is not a priority.
(09:59):
Just like facial emotions,vocal prosody, and body posture.
Everything is slowing down,including thoughts, and the ability
to form new memories, to sustainattention, to think critically,
and to feel hope and motivation.
Also to think hopefully andthink in a motivated way.
You might think, "Well, they justneed to think more positively."
(10:23):
And yeah, you're right.
I don't exactly disagree.
But, it's also not going to happen.
At least not when they're in shutdown.
You see, when we're in a defensivestate, we don't have access
to all of our brain functions.
But that includes flight,fight, freeze, and shutdown.
But in shutdown, we might have even less.
(10:45):
At the very extreme, someone inshutdown may actually dissociate.
They may disconnect from theirbodies, from reality, and from you.
They don't want to.
It's not a conscious choice.
It's a biological reaction which affectsthe entire body, including the brain.
emotions and shutdown
So we've covered isolating, bodyposture, voice, face, and thinking.
(11:13):
So what about emotions?
Just like the other domains thatwe've covered, the collapsed state of
shutdown affects how we feel also, oraffects how your loved one feels also.
In shutdown, the individual feels slow.
Empty, heavy.
What else would they feel if they wereready to collapse and play dead, right?
(11:37):
They feel potentiallyhopeless and helpless as well.
They also know they're lettingpeople down and themselves too.
They know they're not fulfillingtheir responsibilities or they're
wasting their life to some degree.
So they also feel guilt and regret.
Maybe even shame.
So there's this overall sense ofdisconnection in shutdown, which shows
(12:01):
up emotionally in a bunch of ways.
how shutdown can look like not shutdown
I'm gonna backtrack in theintro I mentioned throwing
a wrench into everything andhow this could all be wrong.
I say that because someone in shutdownmay adopt behaviors that completely
mask the fact that they are in shutdown.
(12:23):
This is more for those who arein life contexts where they are
dealing with abuses of variouskinds day in and day out.
Someone who's been repeatedlyabandoned, neglected, or let down.
This person seriously lackssafe connections, and they may
need to become someone else tomeet their own survival needs.
(12:43):
They're still them, but they're themwith a fake smile on their face.
They're them, but they behave in ways thatseem counterintuitive to their well being,
like, connecting with their abusers,something that's called appeasement.
Or, they may preemptively attemptto reduce their partner's rage by
(13:04):
prioritizing the partner's needsthrough something called fawning.
What to do.
Step 1 (13:08):
Validate your loved one's shutdown.
Okay, so, what the heckdo you do about all this?
You're a caring individualin this person's life.
You hate seeing them go through this.
What can you do?
Let's return to an ideathat I brought up before.
I said You don't have to be okaywith someone being in shutdown.
You don't have to be okay with thechoices they make from shutdown.
(13:32):
You don't have to think it'sforever, and you don't have to think
you're helpless in the face of it.
And you don't have to endorse thechoices that they make either.
You're allowed to want better for them.
They want it, too.
I'm not telling you how you shouldor should not act or feel in response
to your loved one's shutdown.
But I am recommending you acknowledgethe potential truth of the situation.
(13:55):
In other words, validate it.
Acknowledge it.
Validating meansacknowledging what is true.
If what I have described sounds likeyour loved one, just acknowledge it.
That doesn't mean beokay with it or like it.
Just Acknowledge it.
If you brought your validation tothat person, that would probably be
(14:15):
more beneficial to them than tellingthem to think differently or reminding
them that they're wasting their life.
They already know.
Step 2 (14:23):
Normalize their shutdown.
after validating, the nextthing you can do is normalize.
That means you reflect on their life andask yourself, "If I had their life would I
likely have a similar shutdown response?"Or "If somebody else had their life,
(14:44):
would they likely have a similar shutdownresponse?" For example, if your spouse
who suffered ongoing abuse as a childis in shutdown, does that make sense?
If your friend whose parentsabandoned him when he was young is in
shutdown, does that make sense why?
If your coworker lost those closestto her this past year, would it
(15:07):
make sense why she's in shutdown?
If your parents were raised in anextremely controlling and publicly shaming
religious institution, would it makesense why they might be in shutdown?
Normalizing doesn'tmean being okay with it.
It doesn't mean liking it.
It just means making sense of it.
(15:29):
Step 3.
Let them be in shutdown.
Okay, so let's build on that.
Validate, normalize.
So, If their shutdown is valid andnormal, the next step is to let it be.
Stop fighting it.
Stop minimizing it.
Stop excusing it.
Stop denying their shutdown.
(15:52):
Let them be in shutdown.
Again, you don't have to beokay with it, or like it.
Letting them be in shutdown means you letgo of control, or the illusion of control.
It's their shutdown, notyours, so let them have it.
You can still expect the best of them.
You can still hope for the best from them.
You can still hold them accountable forthe choices they make, or don't make.
(16:14):
But, it's their shutdown.
It's up to them to get themselvesout of shutdown, ultimately.
Of course, you want tohelp them, and you can.
You care about the person for whomyou're watching this video, or
listening to this podcast episode.
You want to help.
So, after validating, normalizing, andletting them be in shutdown, you can
(16:36):
connect with them more meaningfully.
Step 4 (16:37):
connect with your loved one.
Deb Dana has this wonderful analogy forconnecting with somebody in shutdown,
which she got from somebody else who Idon't know the name of, unfortunately.
Someone who shut down is likea turtle inside of its shell.
If you want the turtle to come out,you don't knock on the shell and
shake it and force it to come out.
(16:57):
Instead, you sit patiently and wait.
Your loved one is intheir shut down shell.
Begging, pleading, yelling, forcing,threatening, shaming, guilt tripping.
These things won't help.
They may actually make things worse, Iwould kind of bet on it, in all honesty.
(17:21):
Instead, you be patient andwait for them to come out.
You can also want the best for them.
You can also tell them you believein them, that you love them, that
you want them to get professionalsupport, but part of the equation in
helping them is to give them patience.
Another part is to give them space.
(17:42):
They don't do well withpressure and pushing.
They may need space or if you're with themthey may do better with quiet and calm.
Maybe ask them, they might know.
a parenting example
does this mean you give them space andlet them indulge in isolation and time
killing and ignoring responsibilities?
Of course not.
(18:04):
I was working with a young manwho just completed high school and
failed his first year of college.
Living with his parents, isolatingin his room, no job, not in school,
lots of video game time, and timewith his girlfriend and his friends.
Wasn't doing house chores.
Uh, in every way this kid was shutdown, or this young man was shut down.
(18:28):
He was pretty unmotivated, wrackedwith, uh, guilt, and shame, and regret.
He was pretty deep inshutdown, I would say.
His parents did what anytypical parent would do.
They pressured, they pleaded, they begged,they fought, and they also judged him.
All of it came from love.
I know it sounds weird, but theywanted the best for him, and they
were having a hard time watching himin shutdown waste away, pretty much.
(18:53):
So all of their efforts didn'thelp, and probably it actually
solidified his shutdown even more.
Even though it was ineffective, it camefrom the best, and it came from love.
They just didn't know how to connectwith him, and they didn't know how
to help him get to that next step.
Things got so bad for him,he sought out therapy.
(19:14):
Because he knew he needed help andthings were looking pretty dim.
But instead of connecting with medirectly, he connected with his parents
to find him a therapist, which theydid, and they connected with me.
So his parents connected him with me.
They all came to the firstsession and it went really well.
He was supposed to come work with me oneon one, but the next session he flaked.
Because he was rude?
(19:35):
No.
Because he was insensitive or becausehe didn't care about his life?
No.
He's in shutdown.
And following through, feeling motivated,feeling energized to get out of the
house a second time was too much for him.
So, we didn't give up, we didn'tshame him, the parents didn't
judge him, they didn't, no.
His parents and I worked together onhow to best help him meet his goals.
(19:58):
They knew what didn't work, sowe focused on what might work.
They did a combination of a few things.
They gave him more statements oflove and support and encouragement.
They also reduced how many statementsof negativity they gave him.
Was it easy and smooth?
Heck no.
But they did good enough.
On top of that, they also told himif he can't complete his household
(20:21):
chores, his household expectationslike taking the garbage out, then
he would not be able to use theirelectricity for things like video games.
They told him he can make his own choices.
They would not hound him, they wouldnot pressure him, and they would
simply remove the privileges they hadprovided to him, but he did not earn.
(20:42):
The electricity for video gamesis a privilege that they gave to
him even though he didn't earn it.
All of these pieces helped himto reduce his isolation and to
connect with his parents more.
He also came back to therapy and workedwith me one on one to boost his motivation
and to start getting things done.
He wanted to get things done.
He just was in a deep shutdownand didn't know what to do next.
(21:04):
He and I met individually I think once,and after that meeting, he started
applying to jobs, he re enrolled inschool, and he and I even met with his dad
so that they could talk some stuff out.
They had some issues between thetwo of them that were ignored
for years and years and years.
The parents gave him love andsupport, but more effectively.
(21:24):
They gave him love and supportwithout the guilts and the shaming.
They gave him love and supportbecause they love and support him.
But instead of being okay with andwatching him not live up to their
or his expectations of himself, theychanged something else, which was to
remove the privileges that they weregiving to him that he had not earned.
(21:47):
So they gave him love support,but also they gave him plenty
of time for him to make his owndecisions while also influencing
his decision making through removingprivileges when it was appropriate.
This setup, this like three tieredphase of increasing positivity,
decreasing negativity, and then grantingprivileges when they're earned, this
(22:07):
was way more helpful than begging,pleading, trying to convince him,
hounding him, pressuring him, and so on.
Once they removed the frictionof themselves from his shutdown,
he got the space, he got theincentive, and the support to decide
on his own to change his life.
(22:29):
Thanks so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
I hope this episode has helpedyou to think differently about
the people in shutdown in your ownlife and how you could possibly,
potentially connect with them.
I hope you understand them better andalso have more compassion for them.
Before you attempt to do anythingdifferently though, it may help you
to reflect on whatever feelings youhave about doing something different.
(22:53):
When the thought of giving themmore space is in your head,
how do you feel about that?
If you typically pressure someone who's inshutdown how do you feel about backing up?
How do you feel about providing morelove and support and understanding?
When I describe the different waysthat shutdown can present itself
in others, did you notice anyjudgments in your mind about those
(23:15):
ways that it can present itself?
How do those judgments carryinto your relationships with
the people you know in shutdown?
I know you care about the shutdownperson in your life and I know you're
trying to learn everything that you can.
So great job on this leg of your journey,and I hope you keep it going and I
hope you reflect on yourself as well.
If you want to deepen your understandingof shutdown, I have the perfect
(23:35):
playlist for you I conducted asurvey about a year ago called
the Shutdown Experiences Survey.
I got 75 responses from realpeople in shutdown sharing
their real shutdown experiences.
From this playlist that I'll share withthe link in the description, you'll
get a deep, compassionate understandingof what it's like to live in shutdown.
(23:57):
Thank you again for listening.
Bye.
This podcast is not therapy,not intended to be therapy or
be a replacement for therapy.
Nothing in this creates or indicatesa therapeutic relationship.
Please consult with your therapist orseek for one in your area if you are
experiencing mental health symptoms.
Nothing in this podcast shouldbe construed to be specific life
(24:18):
advice, it is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
A dorsal vagal shutdown is one ofthree primary autonomic states.
(00:05):
It occurs when one can't existin their ventral vagal safety
state, and when sympatheticflight and fight haven't worked.
The body collapses orplays dead at the extreme.
It's a normal biological reactionin the face of a life threat.
But we can get stuck ina dorsal vagal shutdown.
Day to day, it shows up in ouremotions, our thoughts, our behaviors,
(00:28):
and even our connections with others.
It directly impacts our life, ourhappiness, and our motivation.
You likely have somebody in yourlife who is stuck in shutdown.
Maybe somebody at your work,or even in your own home.
Heck, you may be stuckin shutdown yourself.
(00:49):
But, I'm going to focus onhow to recognize it in others.
When we recognize shutdown inothers, it might help us to feel more
compassion and less judgment for them.
My name is Justin Sunseri.
I am a therapist and coach whohelps you live more calmly,
confidently, and connectedlywithout psychobabble or woo woo.
(01:10):
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This podcast is not therapy, noris it intended to replace therapy.
What's a dorsal vagal shutdown?
Let's understand shutdown a tad morebefore discussing how it might show
up in the people that you care about.
Biologically, shutdown isa state of immobilization.
Specifically, collapsed and limp.
(01:31):
Freeze is also a state ofimmobilization, but tense.
Shutdown is also a state of conservation.
The body is slowing down, or shuttingdown, its processes to conserve resources
in anticipation of coming out of shutdown.
When it comes out of shutdown it emergesinto sympathetic flight fight activation
(01:52):
and then uses that energy to createspace, escape, and return to safety.
So shutdown is collapsed limplyand conserving resources.
Everything is slowed down.
Shutdown also requiresreduced stimulation.
The external world isoverwhelming, it's too much.
(02:13):
Shutdown needs less, it needs lessnoise, less light, less people even.
On that note, shutdown'sactually usually pretty alone.
In shutdown, one disconnects from others,and even from themselves to some degree.
So, let's understand shutdownas a state of collapsed and
(02:34):
disconnected immobilization.
Okay, now we're ready to learn howshutdown shows up in others, like
the person that you're thinkingof that prompted you to click on
this episode in the first place.
Is what I'm going to sharetrue for everyone all the time?
Of course not.
But these are fairly predictablepresentations of shutdown.
(02:56):
At the end of this episode, justto throw a wrench into everything,
I'll share how this actually mightnot be true at all at the same time.
So what I'm giving you are likelyvery common presentations of shutdown,
but at the extreme, shutdown couldpresent much differently as well.
shutdown and isolation.
Someone in shutdown, includingyour loved one, may withdraw.
(03:19):
They might be isolating themselves.
This can be as extreme as lockingthemselves in a dark room and doom
scrolling for hours or oversleeping.
Being alone feels better forsomebody who's in shutdown.
Other people are potentially overwhelming.
Not to mention the sounds, thecrowds, and the lighting of the places
(03:42):
that we typically go to every day.
You might go to the grocerystore and have no problem.
But Someone in shutdown could struggleto get out of their front door because
they're so physically exhausted.
And then when they get to thestore, that might be another huge
challenge to get into that next door.
Remember, shutdown is a state of collapse.
(04:04):
Their body is at leastprepared to collapse, not to
mobilize and go to the store.
And if they make it to thestore they could legitimately
struggle with overstimulation.
Too many people, too manysights, too many sounds, the
lighting might be too harsh even.
You might think, "Well, too bad. Theyneed to get over it, or that's an
excuse for laziness." I'm not askingyou to be okay with the shutdown that
(04:28):
your loved one is struggling with.
I'm not asking you to be okay with howthey're handling it, or not handling it.
I don't think the person in shutdownis okay with it either, but whether you
accept it or not, whether you're okaywith it or not, these are potential
obstacles for somebody in shutdown.
This is their reality, orat least a piece of it.
(04:51):
the demeanor and body posture of shutdown
When someone is stuck in shutdown, you'llsee it in their faces and their body.
Again, shutdown is about collapse.
So someone in shutdown willhave a collapsed look to them.
Maybe not lying on the floorlike literally collapsed, but
slumped, slouched, shriveled.
(05:12):
They appear smaller.
This is how they show up tomy therapy office, no matter
what age they are, honestly.
Teens are probably more obviousabout it, but adults do it too.
As mobility comes back into their system,they can sit upright, they can lean
forward, they think and they plan withmore motivation and more intention.
(05:33):
Also, somebody in shutdown, andmaybe this is describing your loved
one, They'll also have unique facialqualities, and by unique I mean, uh,
they kind of don't have facial qualities.
I mean, they do, obviously.
They still have faces, but the lifein their face is just kind of gone.
They're just sort of flat.
(05:55):
There's no emotion in their faces.
They don't smile.
Their eyes are open, but only partially.
Especially compared to FlightFight, which are more wide open.
Their upper cheeks, the person inshutdown, they aren't doing much
and eye crinkles don't reallyform on the corners of their eyes.
Of course, I'm speaking very generallyand really more to the extreme one
(06:16):
dimensional presentation of shutdown.
There's obviously a variety ofpossible presentations, but you're
likely to see these types of things.
When you're with someone who's inshutdown, you might feel yourself
pulled down, heavier, less hopeful.
It's not their fault, they'renot imposing that feeling on you.
(06:36):
You, as an empathetic, caringperson, are feeling a bit of
what it's like to be them.
That's a bit of theirexperience, day in and day out.
Someone in Shutdown also hugelystruggles with eye contact.
They tend to look down.
In Flight Fight, we look away also,but more around the environment, almost
(06:59):
looking for danger, scanning for danger.
Or in Flight Fight, our eyes arewider open, staring at the person
in front of us and maybe evencreating uncomfy eye contact.
But in shutdown, they look down.
Like, they lack theenergy to even look up.
Maintaining eye contactis pretty much impossible.
(07:22):
That requires, maintaining eye contactrequires a lot of safety in the system.
So, if you're someone that needs eyecontact to feel like you're being listened
to and understood, You're kind of SOL.
If the body's in a state of collapse,and thinks it's life's in threat, then
making eye contact and facial emotivenessare just not priorities for that body.
(07:46):
vocal changes in shutdown
in shutdown, the voice becomes flat.
Just like facial affect and body posture.
It's there, but there's no life in it.
Very monotone and leaning more intothe deeper end of the vocal spectrum,
no matter what their gender is.
In safety, we have somethingcalled vocal prosody, which is
(08:08):
a sing songy quality of voice.
Vocal prosody enablesus to go high and low.
I can't do a very good high voice.
To go high and low.
Vocal prosody allows us to express ouremotions and our intent through voice.
In a defensive state,that's not really possible.
(08:30):
Shutdown, in particular, as adefensive state, is flat in prosody.
And it's also slower.
There isn't much energy in whatsomeone in shutdown is saying.
Sometimes it even seems like theystruggle to get through the sentence.
It's not uncommon for someone in shutdownto think before they speak, inhale,
and then say one sentence that bypasseseverything that was being talked about.
(08:54):
For example, if you ask someone inshutdown what motivates them, they
might pause, breathe in, and then say,"What's the point?" That one sentence
may be the best they can muster.
thinking and shutdown
On that note, let's touch upon thecognitions of someone who is in shutdown.
The thinking.
(09:14):
Just like face and just likevoice, thinking is flat, devoid
of energy, not much life in it.
Very pessimistic.
Lacking hope.
Helpless, even.
Again, this is at the extreme.
Someone in shutdown can totallyhave a job they excel at, but
(09:35):
outside that context, they fallinto typical shutdown experiences.
Or when a shutdown individual is in adifferent environment, like nature, or
with a loved one, or with their pet, insilence, they're less shut down, more
mobile, and maybe even more hopeful.
In shutdown, again, the body's preparingto die, so thinking is not a priority.
(09:59):
Just like facial emotions,vocal prosody, and body posture.
Everything is slowing down,including thoughts, and the ability
to form new memories, to sustainattention, to think critically,
and to feel hope and motivation.
Also to think hopefully andthink in a motivated way.
You might think, "Well, they justneed to think more positively."
(10:23):
And yeah, you're right.
I don't exactly disagree.
But, it's also not going to happen.
At least not when they're in shutdown.
You see, when we're in a defensivestate, we don't have access
to all of our brain functions.
But that includes flight,fight, freeze, and shutdown.
But in shutdown, we might have even less.
(10:45):
At the very extreme, someone inshutdown may actually dissociate.
They may disconnect from theirbodies, from reality, and from you.
They don't want to.
It's not a conscious choice.
It's a biological reaction which affectsthe entire body, including the brain.
emotions and shutdown
So we've covered isolating, bodyposture, voice, face, and thinking.
(11:13):
So what about emotions?
Just like the other domains thatwe've covered, the collapsed state of
shutdown affects how we feel also, oraffects how your loved one feels also.
In shutdown, the individual feels slow.
Empty, heavy.
What else would they feel if they wereready to collapse and play dead, right?
(11:37):
They feel potentiallyhopeless and helpless as well.
They also know they're lettingpeople down and themselves too.
They know they're not fulfillingtheir responsibilities or they're
wasting their life to some degree.
So they also feel guilt and regret.
Maybe even shame.
So there's this overall sense ofdisconnection in shutdown, which shows
(12:01):
up emotionally in a bunch of ways.
how shutdown can look like not shutdown
I'm gonna backtrack in theintro I mentioned throwing
a wrench into everything andhow this could all be wrong.
I say that because someone in shutdownmay adopt behaviors that completely
mask the fact that they are in shutdown.
(12:23):
This is more for those who arein life contexts where they are
dealing with abuses of variouskinds day in and day out.
Someone who's been repeatedlyabandoned, neglected, or let down.
This person seriously lackssafe connections, and they may
need to become someone else tomeet their own survival needs.
(12:43):
They're still them, but they're themwith a fake smile on their face.
They're them, but they behave in ways thatseem counterintuitive to their well being,
like, connecting with their abusers,something that's called appeasement.
Or, they may preemptively attemptto reduce their partner's rage by
(13:04):
prioritizing the partner's needsthrough something called fawning.
What to do.
Step 1 (13:08):
Validate your loved one's shutdown.
Okay, so, what the heckdo you do about all this?
You're a caring individualin this person's life.
You hate seeing them go through this.
What can you do?
Let's return to an ideathat I brought up before.
I said You don't have to be okaywith someone being in shutdown.
You don't have to be okay with thechoices they make from shutdown.
(13:32):
You don't have to think it'sforever, and you don't have to think
you're helpless in the face of it.
And you don't have to endorse thechoices that they make either.
You're allowed to want better for them.
They want it, too.
I'm not telling you how you shouldor should not act or feel in response
to your loved one's shutdown.
But I am recommending you acknowledgethe potential truth of the situation.
(13:55):
In other words, validate it.
Acknowledge it.
Validating meansacknowledging what is true.
If what I have described sounds likeyour loved one, just acknowledge it.
That doesn't mean beokay with it or like it.
Just Acknowledge it.
If you brought your validation tothat person, that would probably be
(14:15):
more beneficial to them than tellingthem to think differently or reminding
them that they're wasting their life.
They already know.
Step 2 (14:23):
Normalize their shutdown.
after validating, the nextthing you can do is normalize.
That means you reflect on their life andask yourself, "If I had their life would I
likely have a similar shutdown response?"Or "If somebody else had their life,
(14:44):
would they likely have a similar shutdownresponse?" For example, if your spouse
who suffered ongoing abuse as a childis in shutdown, does that make sense?
If your friend whose parentsabandoned him when he was young is in
shutdown, does that make sense why?
If your coworker lost those closestto her this past year, would it
(15:07):
make sense why she's in shutdown?
If your parents were raised in anextremely controlling and publicly shaming
religious institution, would it makesense why they might be in shutdown?
Normalizing doesn'tmean being okay with it.
It doesn't mean liking it.
It just means making sense of it.
(15:29):
Step 3.
Let them be in shutdown.
Okay, so let's build on that.
Validate, normalize.
So, If their shutdown is valid andnormal, the next step is to let it be.
Stop fighting it.
Stop minimizing it.
Stop excusing it.
Stop denying their shutdown.
(15:52):
Let them be in shutdown.
Again, you don't have to beokay with it, or like it.
Letting them be in shutdown means you letgo of control, or the illusion of control.
It's their shutdown, notyours, so let them have it.
You can still expect the best of them.
You can still hope for the best from them.
You can still hold them accountable forthe choices they make, or don't make.
(16:14):
But, it's their shutdown.
It's up to them to get themselvesout of shutdown, ultimately.
Of course, you want tohelp them, and you can.
You care about the person for whomyou're watching this video, or
listening to this podcast episode.
You want to help.
So, after validating, normalizing, andletting them be in shutdown, you can
(16:36):
connect with them more meaningfully.
Step 4 (16:37):
connect with your loved one.
Deb Dana has this wonderful analogy forconnecting with somebody in shutdown,
which she got from somebody else who Idon't know the name of, unfortunately.
Someone who shut down is likea turtle inside of its shell.
If you want the turtle to come out,you don't knock on the shell and
shake it and force it to come out.
(16:57):
Instead, you sit patiently and wait.
Your loved one is intheir shut down shell.
Begging, pleading, yelling, forcing,threatening, shaming, guilt tripping.
These things won't help.
They may actually make things worse, Iwould kind of bet on it, in all honesty.
(17:21):
Instead, you be patient andwait for them to come out.
You can also want the best for them.
You can also tell them you believein them, that you love them, that
you want them to get professionalsupport, but part of the equation in
helping them is to give them patience.
Another part is to give them space.
(17:42):
They don't do well withpressure and pushing.
They may need space or if you're with themthey may do better with quiet and calm.
Maybe ask them, they might know.
a parenting example
does this mean you give them space andlet them indulge in isolation and time
killing and ignoring responsibilities?
Of course not.
(18:04):
I was working with a young manwho just completed high school and
failed his first year of college.
Living with his parents, isolatingin his room, no job, not in school,
lots of video game time, and timewith his girlfriend and his friends.
Wasn't doing house chores.
Uh, in every way this kid was shutdown, or this young man was shut down.
(18:28):
He was pretty unmotivated, wrackedwith, uh, guilt, and shame, and regret.
He was pretty deep inshutdown, I would say.
His parents did what anytypical parent would do.
They pressured, they pleaded, they begged,they fought, and they also judged him.
All of it came from love.
I know it sounds weird, but theywanted the best for him, and they
were having a hard time watching himin shutdown waste away, pretty much.
(18:53):
So all of their efforts didn'thelp, and probably it actually
solidified his shutdown even more.
Even though it was ineffective, it camefrom the best, and it came from love.
They just didn't know how to connectwith him, and they didn't know how
to help him get to that next step.
Things got so bad for him,he sought out therapy.
(19:14):
Because he knew he needed help andthings were looking pretty dim.
But instead of connecting with medirectly, he connected with his parents
to find him a therapist, which theydid, and they connected with me.
So his parents connected him with me.
They all came to the firstsession and it went really well.
He was supposed to come work with me oneon one, but the next session he flaked.
Because he was rude?
(19:35):
No.
Because he was insensitive or becausehe didn't care about his life?
No.
He's in shutdown.
And following through, feeling motivated,feeling energized to get out of the
house a second time was too much for him.
So, we didn't give up, we didn'tshame him, the parents didn't
judge him, they didn't, no.
His parents and I worked together onhow to best help him meet his goals.
(19:58):
They knew what didn't work, sowe focused on what might work.
They did a combination of a few things.
They gave him more statements oflove and support and encouragement.
They also reduced how many statementsof negativity they gave him.
Was it easy and smooth?
Heck no.
But they did good enough.
On top of that, they also told himif he can't complete his household
(20:21):
chores, his household expectationslike taking the garbage out, then
he would not be able to use theirelectricity for things like video games.
They told him he can make his own choices.
They would not hound him, they wouldnot pressure him, and they would
simply remove the privileges they hadprovided to him, but he did not earn.
(20:42):
The electricity for video gamesis a privilege that they gave to
him even though he didn't earn it.
All of these pieces helped himto reduce his isolation and to
connect with his parents more.
He also came back to therapy and workedwith me one on one to boost his motivation
and to start getting things done.
He wanted to get things done.
He just was in a deep shutdownand didn't know what to do next.
(21:04):
He and I met individually I think once,and after that meeting, he started
applying to jobs, he re enrolled inschool, and he and I even met with his dad
so that they could talk some stuff out.
They had some issues between thetwo of them that were ignored
for years and years and years.
The parents gave him love andsupport, but more effectively.
(21:24):
They gave him love and supportwithout the guilts and the shaming.
They gave him love and supportbecause they love and support him.
But instead of being okay with andwatching him not live up to their
or his expectations of himself, theychanged something else, which was to
remove the privileges that they weregiving to him that he had not earned.
(21:47):
So they gave him love support,but also they gave him plenty
of time for him to make his owndecisions while also influencing
his decision making through removingprivileges when it was appropriate.
This setup, this like three tieredphase of increasing positivity,
decreasing negativity, and then grantingprivileges when they're earned, this
(22:07):
was way more helpful than begging,pleading, trying to convince him,
hounding him, pressuring him, and so on.
Once they removed the frictionof themselves from his shutdown,
he got the space, he got theincentive, and the support to decide
on his own to change his life.
(22:29):
Thanks so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
I hope this episode has helpedyou to think differently about
the people in shutdown in your ownlife and how you could possibly,
potentially connect with them.
I hope you understand them better andalso have more compassion for them.
Before you attempt to do anythingdifferently though, it may help you
to reflect on whatever feelings youhave about doing something different.
(22:53):
When the thought of giving themmore space is in your head,
how do you feel about that?
If you typically pressure someone who's inshutdown how do you feel about backing up?
How do you feel about providing morelove and support and understanding?
When I describe the different waysthat shutdown can present itself
in others, did you notice anyjudgments in your mind about those
(23:15):
ways that it can present itself?
How do those judgments carryinto your relationships with
the people you know in shutdown?
I know you care about the shutdownperson in your life and I know you're
trying to learn everything that you can.
So great job on this leg of your journey,and I hope you keep it going and I
hope you reflect on yourself as well.
If you want to deepen your understandingof shutdown, I have the perfect
(23:35):
playlist for you I conducted asurvey about a year ago called
the Shutdown Experiences Survey.
I got 75 responses from realpeople in shutdown sharing
their real shutdown experiences.
From this playlist that I'll share withthe link in the description, you'll
get a deep, compassionate understandingof what it's like to live in shutdown.
(23:57):
Thank you again for listening.
Bye.
This podcast is not therapy,not intended to be therapy or
be a replacement for therapy.
Nothing in this creates or indicatesa therapeutic relationship.
Please consult with your therapist orseek for one in your area if you are
experiencing mental health symptoms.
Nothing in this podcast shouldbe construed to be specific life
(24:18):
advice, it is for educationaland entertainment purposes only.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.