June 24, 2025 • 11 mins
Learn how the Polyvagal Theory helps explain healthy boundaries through a combination of safety and sympathetic activation.
Episode Introduction and Context — 0:00
Understanding Ventral Vagal Safety State — 0:34
Balancing Safety and Sympathetic Activation — 1:16
Proactive Practice for Boundary Setting — 3:29
Compassionate Boundary Enforcement — 5:16
Realistic Expectations and Self-Connection — 7:20
Conclusion and Invitation to Unstucking Academy — 10:14
Resources:
⬇️ Download the Polyvagal One-Pagers - https://stucknauts.circle.so/c/public_resources/polyvagal-checklist-download-8a9597
Resources:
🔸 Free resources and course in the Members Center - https://www.justinlmft.com/members
🔸 Join the Unstucking Academy - https://www.stucknotbroken.com/unstuckingacademy
🔸 Polyvagal Intro webpage - https://www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro
🔸 Stuck Not Broken book series - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
🔸 Polyvagal 101 audio series - https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cce134e7-1550-4d33-8e56-738d344c63b0
Crisis resources:
- National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
- National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
- LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
- National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
- Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
- Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, YouTube, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (#99147).
Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast! When you do, you will immediately get the next episode as soon as it's available. What's better than having the next episode of SNB ready and waiting for you? (Nothing, that's what.)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This was a great question from arecent Unstuck Academy q and a,
(00:03):
asking about ventral bagel safetyactivation, and enforcing boundaries.
I wanted to share with you, and I'mreally curious what you think about it.
Hey, I'm Justin since I'm a therapistand coach who helps you live more
calmly, confidently and connectedwithout psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This is of course not therapy and,uh, is not meant to replace therapy.
(00:27):
Oh, and I removed as much of the students'audio as I could, and I replaced it
with, uh, AI versions of their voices.
Can you discuss the importanceof the ventral vagal safety
state in setting boundaries?
It seems there is a balance between safetybut also flight and fight sympathetic?
Okay.
Boundaries with ventral vagal activation.
You're dead on with that.
(00:48):
When we enforce a boundary, thereis some flight fight activation.
I would lean more towardthe fight activation.
Not angry, not lashingout, not name calling.
That, I mean, yeah, that's,it's a boundary I suppose.
But that would be, uh, without orwith less ventral, vagal activation.
(01:09):
And so ideally we wanna haveas much grounding as much
anchoring and safety as we can.
I, I think it's totally okayfor boundaries to come across as
strong, like a very clear, no.
A very strong, no.
Maybe even a raised voice, no if needed.
Some people situationally might need that.
(01:29):
So, but you, you could do that froma, a, a strong anchoring in your
ventral vagal state- safety state.
Right.
So ideally what kind of needs tohappen is that we feel that activation.
In, in the moment, we feel thatspike of whatever, it's, there's a
(01:51):
surge of wanting to get outta here.
And now it changed into some irritationthat I, this person's not picking up
on my cues and they're stamping all-trampling all over my, uh, whatever my
boundary or my values or what, whatever.
So, probably once we get more tothat, like fight activation, that's
(02:13):
where we would say, uh, put in somesort of like, I'm not okay with that.
Or flight activation could be, I hear you.
I don't need to be a part of this.
I'm gonna leave now.
So, but that does require that we, we feeland embrace it rather than f- feeling it
unconsciously and then reacting to it.
(02:34):
So we really have to have this like net tocapture, metaphorically, to capture that
activation and inward, and it's hard inthe moment, but in the moment we would say
to ourselves something like, it's there.
I have every right to feel this way,and I can, I can come from compassion.
That can come from assuming thisperson doesn't know any better maybe.
(02:57):
But all that takes a stronganchoring and safety state.
So ideally, when we'rein these situations.
We would have familiarity with whatthe defensive activation feels like
in the first place, so that whenit's there, it's not overwhelming.
Ideally, when we're in these situations,we'd already have a pretty good
amount of safety in our system becausewe've practiced feeling safety and so
(03:19):
having the right balance, those twothings can equal noticing it, acting
on it, and forcing a boundary andfollowing through with it as well.
Okay, so I don't think there'slike, here's the answer to setting
a boundary in the moment when you'refeeling it and you didn't expect it.
Like that's the hardest.
(03:39):
It's really comes, always, comesdown to proactively practicing
these things ahead of time.
And I think that means proactivelypracticing safety, but also
proactively remembering, feelinginto mentally rehearsing defense.
One of those options.
So if, if one knows that I typicallyfeel freeze when I'm in any social
(04:05):
situation, but maybe one that's more,um, uh, not triggering challenging.
I, I know I typically feel this way insocial situations, so when I'm not in
that situation, lemme practice safetyand then feel into my freeze activation
that I know is gonna happen anyway.
(04:26):
So let's just kind of feel into it.
Um, that's.
That's a generally approachable way,as long as you have enough safety.
But you can also say, I,I know I feel this often.
I felt in the past, I'm gonnafeel it again in the future.
So let me anchor into safetyand then remember what it feels
like to be in that situation.
Maybe even remember a specificincident, let it be there.
(04:46):
And then pendulate it with safety.
And that's all stage three stuff.
And a third option, which is verychallenging, is the option of, I
know I'm gonna feel this anyway.
Let me imagine a scenario where I feelthis, and then do the pendulation.
So all those act as, um, buffersor inno, what's the word?
(05:11):
Inoculator.
Inoculations to a real lifescenario in the future.
So, in relationships where aboundary is needed, then the
safety state is important to stayconnected and enforce the boundary.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So the ventral part piece ofit, it could look like that.
Behavioral wise- that'swhat it could look like.
(05:33):
Internally, the ventralactivation could show up as a deep
compassion for the person and.
You smile and you say,look, you sound ridiculous.
I love you, but no, Ican't go there with you.
You know that that would be a really,you know, soft way to approach it.
Lots of compassion.
It's not easy to do, uh, but ventralcould also be a connection with yourself.
(05:57):
Let's, let's stick with the other person.
It could be a connection withthe other person where you do say
like, look, this is inappropriate.
I care about you.
I know you have the best intentions,but I think you're way off base and
I, I can't go down this path with you.
That's a little more firmer,but it still comes from enough
ventral activation to rememberlike, I do care about this person.
And, um, I also, and this is where the.
(06:18):
I think it's a more interesting piece ofit, which is the connection with yourself.
And I think that takes a lotof ventral activation too.
So ventral the safety activation isconnection with others, self, environment.
So part of the puzzle here islike, no, I connected to myself.
I know what I feel.
I feel it.
I feel that activation.
It makes sense, it's why it'sthere and I can let it be there.
(06:40):
And um, I'm also connected to my values,the one I believe, or what I know or what
I like- I'm connected to that, to that.
And I'm also connected to a, avalue of mine, which is I can't
compromise, um, certain things.
Like it's just moremorally I can't do that.
And so all that is avery strong foundation.
I think that comes from ventral,but also probably some fight, fight
(07:02):
activation too 'cause there's,there's empowerment there, right?
So behaviorally that could comeacross more compassionately and soft.
It might come across a littlemore toward the firm no.
You know, but once we're lashing outand name calling and stuff, that would
be behaviorally more probably suggestthere's less ventral activation.
It seems like if I am telling the storythrough my fight lens, I would probably
(07:24):
have expectations that the other personis going to come back at me in some way.
Challenge me.
But in ventral, you don't read thefuture through a distorted lens.
Well, yeah, that, that's thetricky part of the distorted lens
because when we're in sympathetic,we know this is gonna happen.
Mm-hmm.
They are gonna say this, andthey're a jerk, you know, but when
(07:45):
we have enough ventral activation,we can still see the future, quote
unquote, see the future in quotes.
Like, I, this is going to happen.
This person, I know this person, andthey're realistically going to lash out.
Like that's, we've spent enough timewith someone where we know, and dammit,
I can't do this anymore and I'm gonnaembrace the fact that they're gonna
(08:06):
do this and I'm gonna hold my groundand if they cross a certain boundary,
then I'm gonna leave or whatever.
Uh, but that's tellingthe future in a sense.
But it's also very much grounded inreality versus flight, fight, freeze,
shutdown telling the future, whichis more fear driven; defense, more
(08:27):
dysregulated, driven thought and likein the moment, that is really hard
to parse out and maybe unrealistic.
So ahead of time, that mightbe the best time to know what's
gonna happen realistically.
Then anchoring into the safetystate enables a kind of,
"to thine own self be true."
Yeah, I, I think that the,actually the, the piece that
(08:47):
you brought up, the knowing.
Actual knowing.
Not the dysregulated assuming, but like,I know, I know what's gonna happen.
I know this person, I know their behaviorand I know how they're likely to react
and damn it, here I am, I, I am firmlyaware of how I feel and what I know
to be true or morally what I will orwill not do, and I don't control them.
(09:08):
I think that's, that's actually abig part of, is knowing I, I don't
control them, but I realisticallyknow how they're gonna react.
But I, I. I have no choice but to live upto what I know is right or wrong maybe, or
what, uh, line I will or will not cross.
And that's, I'm firmly planted like a, atree deeply rooted in the ground in this.
(09:29):
That's different than stubbornness too.
There's a lot of like parsing, but that's,I'm not talking about stubbornness.
I'm talking about like value driven,principles, morality, like, I just
can't do this thing that they'reasking me to, or however it shows up.
And then letting the chips fallwhere they may because you're
solidly rooted within yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
knowing that I don't control them,they're likely gonna do whatever it
(09:50):
is, and the, the results, if they enactthat are potentially disastrous for
them or people around them that theremight be some level of I, whatever
happens, happens, I, I can't control it.
I'll do the best I can.
I'll, you know, look out for those.
I love, depending on the situation,I'll look out for myself, but
this outcome is outta my control.
And if, if they are going tomake disastrous decisions,
(10:13):
I, I just can't control that.
Thanks so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
I hope you learned a bit aboutthe importance of your safety
state and creating or enforcingboundaries with those who need it.
No, it's not easy.
Some relationships are easier tohold the boundary with than others.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to astrong enough connection within yourself,
(10:36):
the ability to feel your sympatheticstates and to turn it into empowerment.
And also understanding that theother person is gonna make their own
choices and they need to live withthe consequences of those choices.
And that you don't control the outcomeof those choices, or at least, uh, you
maybe should not try to impose yourcontrol on the outcome of their choices.
(11:02):
But, uh, what do you think?
If you're interested in joining me ina future live q and a, I would love
to see you in the Unstucking Academy.
Not only are there q and As andother live events to answer your
questions, but there's also clearcoursework that's grounded in the
Polyvagal Theory primary sources.
You'll also join a private communitythat's limited to 150 students, and
(11:25):
these are people that are just likeyou, so you're not gonna be alone.
You can learn more throughthe link in the description.
I hope to see you withinthe Unstucking Academy.
This was a great question from arecent Unstuck Academy q and a,
(00:03):
asking about ventral bagel safetyactivation, and enforcing boundaries.
I wanted to share with you, and I'mreally curious what you think about it.
Hey, I'm Justin since I'm a therapistand coach who helps you live more
calmly, confidently and connectedwithout psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This is of course not therapy and,uh, is not meant to replace therapy.
(00:27):
Oh, and I removed as much of the students'audio as I could, and I replaced it
with, uh, AI versions of their voices.
Can you discuss the importanceof the ventral vagal safety
state in setting boundaries?
It seems there is a balance between safetybut also flight and fight sympathetic?
Okay.
Boundaries with ventral vagal activation.
You're dead on with that.
(00:48):
When we enforce a boundary, thereis some flight fight activation.
I would lean more towardthe fight activation.
Not angry, not lashingout, not name calling.
That, I mean, yeah, that's,it's a boundary I suppose.
But that would be, uh, without orwith less ventral, vagal activation.
(01:09):
And so ideally we wanna haveas much grounding as much
anchoring and safety as we can.
I, I think it's totally okayfor boundaries to come across as
strong, like a very clear, no.
A very strong, no.
Maybe even a raised voice, no if needed.
Some people situationally might need that.
(01:29):
So, but you, you could do that froma, a, a strong anchoring in your
ventral vagal state- safety state.
Right.
So ideally what kind of needs tohappen is that we feel that activation.
In, in the moment, we feel thatspike of whatever, it's, there's a
(01:51):
surge of wanting to get outta here.
And now it changed into some irritationthat I, this person's not picking up
on my cues and they're stamping all-trampling all over my, uh, whatever my
boundary or my values or what, whatever.
So, probably once we get more tothat, like fight activation, that's
(02:13):
where we would say, uh, put in somesort of like, I'm not okay with that.
Or flight activation could be, I hear you.
I don't need to be a part of this.
I'm gonna leave now.
So, but that does require that we, we feeland embrace it rather than f- feeling it
unconsciously and then reacting to it.
(02:34):
So we really have to have this like net tocapture, metaphorically, to capture that
activation and inward, and it's hard inthe moment, but in the moment we would say
to ourselves something like, it's there.
I have every right to feel this way,and I can, I can come from compassion.
That can come from assuming thisperson doesn't know any better maybe.
(02:57):
But all that takes a stronganchoring and safety state.
So ideally, when we'rein these situations.
We would have familiarity with whatthe defensive activation feels like
in the first place, so that whenit's there, it's not overwhelming.
Ideally, when we're in these situations,we'd already have a pretty good
amount of safety in our system becausewe've practiced feeling safety and so
(03:19):
having the right balance, those twothings can equal noticing it, acting
on it, and forcing a boundary andfollowing through with it as well.
Okay, so I don't think there'slike, here's the answer to setting
a boundary in the moment when you'refeeling it and you didn't expect it.
Like that's the hardest.
(03:39):
It's really comes, always, comesdown to proactively practicing
these things ahead of time.
And I think that means proactivelypracticing safety, but also
proactively remembering, feelinginto mentally rehearsing defense.
One of those options.
So if, if one knows that I typicallyfeel freeze when I'm in any social
(04:05):
situation, but maybe one that's more,um, uh, not triggering challenging.
I, I know I typically feel this way insocial situations, so when I'm not in
that situation, lemme practice safetyand then feel into my freeze activation
that I know is gonna happen anyway.
(04:26):
So let's just kind of feel into it.
Um, that's.
That's a generally approachable way,as long as you have enough safety.
But you can also say, I,I know I feel this often.
I felt in the past, I'm gonnafeel it again in the future.
So let me anchor into safetyand then remember what it feels
like to be in that situation.
Maybe even remember a specificincident, let it be there.
(04:46):
And then pendulate it with safety.
And that's all stage three stuff.
And a third option, which is verychallenging, is the option of, I
know I'm gonna feel this anyway.
Let me imagine a scenario where I feelthis, and then do the pendulation.
So all those act as, um, buffersor inno, what's the word?
(05:11):
Inoculator.
Inoculations to a real lifescenario in the future.
So, in relationships where aboundary is needed, then the
safety state is important to stayconnected and enforce the boundary.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So the ventral part piece ofit, it could look like that.
Behavioral wise- that'swhat it could look like.
(05:33):
Internally, the ventralactivation could show up as a deep
compassion for the person and.
You smile and you say,look, you sound ridiculous.
I love you, but no, Ican't go there with you.
You know that that would be a really,you know, soft way to approach it.
Lots of compassion.
It's not easy to do, uh, but ventralcould also be a connection with yourself.
(05:57):
Let's, let's stick with the other person.
It could be a connection withthe other person where you do say
like, look, this is inappropriate.
I care about you.
I know you have the best intentions,but I think you're way off base and
I, I can't go down this path with you.
That's a little more firmer,but it still comes from enough
ventral activation to rememberlike, I do care about this person.
And, um, I also, and this is where the.
(06:18):
I think it's a more interesting piece ofit, which is the connection with yourself.
And I think that takes a lotof ventral activation too.
So ventral the safety activation isconnection with others, self, environment.
So part of the puzzle here islike, no, I connected to myself.
I know what I feel.
I feel it.
I feel that activation.
It makes sense, it's why it'sthere and I can let it be there.
(06:40):
And um, I'm also connected to my values,the one I believe, or what I know or what
I like- I'm connected to that, to that.
And I'm also connected to a, avalue of mine, which is I can't
compromise, um, certain things.
Like it's just moremorally I can't do that.
And so all that is avery strong foundation.
I think that comes from ventral,but also probably some fight, fight
(07:02):
activation too 'cause there's,there's empowerment there, right?
So behaviorally that could comeacross more compassionately and soft.
It might come across a littlemore toward the firm no.
You know, but once we're lashing outand name calling and stuff, that would
be behaviorally more probably suggestthere's less ventral activation.
It seems like if I am telling the storythrough my fight lens, I would probably
(07:24):
have expectations that the other personis going to come back at me in some way.
Challenge me.
But in ventral, you don't read thefuture through a distorted lens.
Well, yeah, that, that's thetricky part of the distorted lens
because when we're in sympathetic,we know this is gonna happen.
Mm-hmm.
They are gonna say this, andthey're a jerk, you know, but when
(07:45):
we have enough ventral activation,we can still see the future, quote
unquote, see the future in quotes.
Like, I, this is going to happen.
This person, I know this person, andthey're realistically going to lash out.
Like that's, we've spent enough timewith someone where we know, and dammit,
I can't do this anymore and I'm gonnaembrace the fact that they're gonna
(08:06):
do this and I'm gonna hold my groundand if they cross a certain boundary,
then I'm gonna leave or whatever.
Uh, but that's tellingthe future in a sense.
But it's also very much grounded inreality versus flight, fight, freeze,
shutdown telling the future, whichis more fear driven; defense, more
(08:27):
dysregulated, driven thought and likein the moment, that is really hard
to parse out and maybe unrealistic.
So ahead of time, that mightbe the best time to know what's
gonna happen realistically.
Then anchoring into the safetystate enables a kind of,
"to thine own self be true."
Yeah, I, I think that the,actually the, the piece that
(08:47):
you brought up, the knowing.
Actual knowing.
Not the dysregulated assuming, but like,I know, I know what's gonna happen.
I know this person, I know their behaviorand I know how they're likely to react
and damn it, here I am, I, I am firmlyaware of how I feel and what I know
to be true or morally what I will orwill not do, and I don't control them.
(09:08):
I think that's, that's actually abig part of, is knowing I, I don't
control them, but I realisticallyknow how they're gonna react.
But I, I. I have no choice but to live upto what I know is right or wrong maybe, or
what, uh, line I will or will not cross.
And that's, I'm firmly planted like a, atree deeply rooted in the ground in this.
(09:29):
That's different than stubbornness too.
There's a lot of like parsing, but that's,I'm not talking about stubbornness.
I'm talking about like value driven,principles, morality, like, I just
can't do this thing that they'reasking me to, or however it shows up.
And then letting the chips fallwhere they may because you're
solidly rooted within yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
knowing that I don't control them,they're likely gonna do whatever it
(09:50):
is, and the, the results, if they enactthat are potentially disastrous for
them or people around them that theremight be some level of I, whatever
happens, happens, I, I can't control it.
I'll do the best I can.
I'll, you know, look out for those.
I love, depending on the situation,I'll look out for myself, but
this outcome is outta my control.
And if, if they are going tomake disastrous decisions,
(10:13):
I, I just can't control that.
Thanks so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
I hope you learned a bit aboutthe importance of your safety
state and creating or enforcingboundaries with those who need it.
No, it's not easy.
Some relationships are easier tohold the boundary with than others.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to astrong enough connection within yourself,
(10:36):
the ability to feel your sympatheticstates and to turn it into empowerment.
And also understanding that theother person is gonna make their own
choices and they need to live withthe consequences of those choices.
And that you don't control the outcomeof those choices, or at least, uh, you
maybe should not try to impose yourcontrol on the outcome of their choices.
(11:02):
But, uh, what do you think?
If you're interested in joining me ina future live q and a, I would love
to see you in the Unstucking Academy.
Not only are there q and As andother live events to answer your
questions, but there's also clearcoursework that's grounded in the
Polyvagal Theory primary sources.
You'll also join a private communitythat's limited to 150 students, and
(11:25):
these are people that are just likeyou, so you're not gonna be alone.
You can learn more throughthe link in the description.
I hope to see you withinthe Unstucking Academy.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.