June 17, 2025 • 15 mins
What’s the real difference between “fawn” and “appease”? Therapist Justice Sunseri breaks down these trauma responses, how they relate to Polyvagal Theory, and what it means for recovery. Download the free Polyvagal One Pagers in the description for more resources!
00:00 – Episode intro
00:51 – Understanding Fawn and Appeasement
02:11 – Behavioral Adaptations in Severe Situations
03:23 – Appeasement and Social Activation
07:53 – Dissociation and Survival Mechanisms
11:50 – Recovery and Self-Regulation out of Severe Dissociation
15:07 – Episode outro and final thoughts
Resources:
⬇️ Download the Polyvagal One-Pagers - https://stucknauts.circle.so/c/public_resources/polyvagal-checklist-download-8a9597
Resources:
🔸 Free resources and course in the Members Center - https://www.justinlmft.com/members
🔸 Join the Unstucking Academy - https://www.stucknotbroken.com/unstuckingacademy
🔸 Polyvagal Intro webpage - https://www.justinlmft.com/polyvagalintro
🔸 Stuck Not Broken book series - https://www.justinlmft.com/books
🔸 Polyvagal 101 audio series - https://player.captivate.fm/collection/cce134e7-1550-4d33-8e56-738d344c63b0
Crisis resources:
- National Suicide Prevention Hotline - 1 (800) 273-8255
- National Domestic Violence Hotline -1 (800) 799-7233
- LGBT Trevor Project Lifeline - 1 (866) 488-7386
- National Sexual Assault Hotline - 1 (800) 656-4673
- Crisis Text Line - Text “HOME” to 741741
- Call 911 for emergency
This and other content produced by Justin Sunseri (“JustinLMFT”) (i.e; podcast, YouTube, Instagram, etc.) is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or be a replacement for therapy. Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship. Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are experiencing mental health symptoms. Nothing should be construed to be specific life advice; it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
Justin Sunseri is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist registered in the State of California (#99147).
Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast! When you do, you will immediately get the next episode as soon as it's available. What's better than having the next episode of SNB ready and waiting for you? (Nothing, that's what.)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This was a great question from arecent unstuck Academy q and a, uh,
(00:04):
differentiating between Fawn andAppeasement, and then bringing in a deep
discussion of dissociation and recovery.
I wanna share with you, and I'mreally curious what you think.
I always ground my thoughtsin the Polyvagal Theory,
primary source teachings.
But this is one area where I splitoff from the Polyvagal Orthodoxy.
(00:26):
Hi, I'm Justice Sunseri.
I am a therapist and coach who helpsyou live more calmly, confidently, and
connected without psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This is of, uh, not therapy, uh, noris it intended to replace therapy.
Oh, and I removed as much of thestudents' audio as I could, and
I replaced it with AI versions oftheir questions and discussion.
(00:51):
I am struggling tounderstand fawn and appease.
I've only just begun the coursework, butwould like to hear your thoughts on that.
I deviate from the official Polyvagal,uh, Polyvagal Institute and Dr.
Porges doctrine on this, okay?
I deviate a bit.
So in the book, I believe it was thisone, our Polyvagal world, which is
(01:11):
written by- yeah, him and his son.
They lay fawning out as flight andfight plus shutdown, but I flight and
fight plus shutdown is also freeze.
So in very generic terms, they'resuggesting that freeze and fawn both have
(01:35):
the same underlying autonomic activation.
I personally don't like that.
Um, to me, to me, fawning is a behavior.
It's something that we would recognizeas a behavior or, or a way of thinking.
(01:56):
Um, it's, it's prioritizing somebodyelse, making sure their needs
are met as a way to placate them.
That is a specific behavior,I think comes from shutdown.
I would argue that fawning as abehavior is a solution to someone
being not a solution, but a, anadaptation to chronic and deep and
(02:21):
severe, shut down or freeze activation.
So I look at this as someone is in asituation that is severe, like an abusive
home, uh, hostage, hostage situation.
So like something that they cannot escape.
Um, and their state ischronically shut down or freeze.
(02:44):
I argue there's there's gotta bea lot of free- shutdown in there.
So to adapt to the, to that state andget their needs met, they fawn as a, as a
way to get their needs met and deal- andreduce the amount of danger in the- the
amount of life threat in the situation.
So that's how I conceptualized it, becauseone could have flight, fight and shut
(03:07):
down active at the same time and not fawn.
So it doesn't make sense to me thatfawning and freeze could have the same
underlying neural pathways, unlesswe look at fawning as a behavioral
adaptation to set down or freeze.
So same thing with appeasement, whichI'm a little bit more on board with.
Appeasement is, again, verycon- contextually driven
(03:31):
and behaviorally focused.
The context would again, be asituation where they cannot escape,
can't fight, can't run away.
Shutting down is not gonna work becausethey'll, they won't get their needs met.
They'll, they'll die.
So appeasement, they conceptualize inthe book as a combination of all of
the states active at the same time.
(03:52):
In particular, in a situationlike a hostage situation where
they, or a kidnapping situationwhere they can't escape.
And so one would appease, whichis, which is a, uh, general set of
behaviors they would appease in orderto reduce the amount of potential
life threat in the environment fromthe captor and the appeasement would
(04:16):
also help them get their needs met.
I would argue that appeasement comesfrom significant freeze or shutdown.
I would argue more shutdownpersonally, because when one appeases
or fawns, they are, um, they're,they're really depends- they're,
they could potentially be very much.
(04:37):
Acting in ways that are not in alignmentwith their true values, like very much,
I mean, they're pretty disconnectedfrom themselves at that point.
To me, that means there's a, there'sa ton of shutdown and probably
dissociation happening, which leads tothese behaviors to get their needs met.
Could a fawn or appeasement behavioraladaptation be a way to potentially
(04:58):
lessen the other person's defensivestates in your own interest?
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I, that'swhat I was trying to say.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, it's, these are strategies andnot like they're, you know, someone's
not like blueprinting this stuff out.
Um, it's, they do what they haveto do to survive in this situation.
So appeasement in particular, becausethey, it does seem to have some
(05:19):
safety activation along with it.
So this person who can appease ha- theycan utilize all of their states in these
situations, and they can come across asa friend to the captor or as an ally,
you know, they can, like, I'm on yourteam, I'll help you hide from the police.
I'll lie for you.
(05:39):
Now, outside of that situation,that person probably would never
think of doing those things or feelgood about it or feel proud of it.
Right?
But in that context, those behaviorshelp to reduce the, the, the danger,
the literal, I mean the literal danger.
So they might help that captortemporarily just bring their fight
activation, probably their ragecome down enough to where that the
(06:04):
person who is appeasing or fawningcan, you know, get through the day.
So, with appeasement then, youwould need some amount of social
activation and thinking available.
Whereas in fawn, that might be different.
Yeah, you nailed it.
So appeasing is, there's a, there's a, i,I don't, it's, I don't think it's a true
(06:24):
social connected empathy; I don't thinkit's a true like ventral vagal state.
And that's- we could talk about it ifthat think is more complex, but like,
I don't think it's a true connection.
It's a pseudo connection,like a fake connection.
Um, or I don't know, may, maybethe person does truly feel it.
(06:45):
I, I don't know.
I, I, I, I don't know.
I can't get that part into it.
But regardless, there does seem to besome ventral activation in there to
come across as a friend, and then withfawning, it's not friendship, it's
more like, um, I'm, I'm invisible.
I'm not a threat.
Don't pay- don't pay attention to me.
So, if a person is receivingappeasement behavior, then they're being
(07:06):
co-regulated by it to some extent, right?
Yeah, exactly.
You nailed it.
So there is, there has to be like,if someone can smile at their captor
or use their vocal prosy to calmthem down there, there has to be
some sort of ventral activation.
So Yeah.
And it's very much aone way thing, I think.
Um, the, the person appeasing andusing those strategies is getting
(07:30):
their needs met, but they're not,they're not receiving co-regulation.
It's, it's very much aone- I'm giving you this.
And the person, the captor or the abuser,they're receiving it, um, not consciously.
They're not like feeling empathy and love.
They're like, it's not like that.
But they're, their defensive activationmust come down enough to just, you
(07:51):
know, get through that situation.
The way I think about this, and I don'tknow how to talk about this honestly,
so I'll, I'll try and I'll stumble.
In my mind though,
what, what, when we get deep enoughinto a shutdown state, when, when
our, what, this is my assumption.
I have no evidence for this.
This is how I think about it.
Okay.
When we get deep enough into shutdown,there's, there's dissociation.
(08:14):
We disconnect from ourselves andthat could lead to, in severe cases,
um, dissociative identity disorderthat could lead to derealization
depersonalization, like really justdisconnected from the self, but.
But we still have to function.
We still have to get our needs met.
We can't live in a dissociated statevery long at all, like a truly, you
(08:36):
know, dissociated or lemme start over.
When we, when we truly shutdown, we collapse, we play dead.
We cannot survive in that state.
So our bodies, human bodies inparticular, seem to have this ability
to disconnect from what's happening.
So even though it's a huge shutdownpsychologically or in our brain,
(08:57):
somehow we can- we can dissociateand then keep going somehow.
And through that dissociation, wecan actually take on what looks
to be like a new personality.
So that person who's a to me, that theperson who's appeasing, they're, they're
so disconnected from their authentic self.
(09:18):
They, they have to takeon this new personality.
I dunno how else to say it.
This new system- value, way ofthinking, way of feeling, way of acting.
They take on these, allthese new behaviors in order
to survive the situation.
I think the same thing is truefor someone who's in fawn.
They're, they're just deeply disconnectedfrom their grounded true self.
(09:44):
I don't like to get that phrase,but I don't know how else to say it.
So to me it's like once you getdeep enough into shutdown or deep
enough into dis dissociation, youstill have to get your needs met.
You still gotta go to work, you stillgotta appe- you still have to survive
in some situation that's horrible.
You gotta go to school.
And so it's to, to me, it acts as likea, a, a, a slate- like a clean slate.
(10:07):
It's not, but it's almost like,here's the first level of me.
I can't be this in this situation.
So shut down, wipes that away.
And here's a new level, level two,which is very compromised and is now
appeasing or fawning because I, Igotta survive, but this is not me.
And so once I get outta that situation,once I can get help and self-regulate
(10:30):
this level two person goes away.
Now we're back to level one.
But now level one has this shutdown,it has to deal with; this true self.
Now this, this self has to dealwith all that pain that it went
through and dis- dissociated from.
And that's where a whole due level oflike self-regulation has to come in.
But that's just me.
That's just the way I'm thinking about it.
(10:51):
I have no evidence to, nopolyvagal evidence to back that up.
That that's just how I think about it.
Maybe it's better as a metaphor.
If someone is well regulated,in situations or with potential,
um, predators, they would feeland push back against that.
But if it's a situation they can't escape,or if they were raised in a situation
(11:13):
they couldn't escape, couldn't fight from,couldn't even successfully shut down in,
well, what other option do they have?
But to kind of like give themselvesthis dissociative blank slate
and bring in a new personality.
Although sometimes I do think it isa literal new personality, but it
(11:33):
just to get through the day, to getthrough until they get to safety.
It's almost like a, I don'tknow how to talk about it.
It's almost like a reset.
It's like, um, version two.
But version one's still there.
It's just like way deep down andwe have to go through version
two to get back to version one.
I find that fascinating.
How does this relate tounstucking, recovery, and going
from version 1 to version 2?
(11:55):
I wish I had a great answer,but I don't have enough.
Um, I've worked withpeople who are dissociated.
But not, well, actually, that's not true.
I've worked with a couple peoplethat have severe dissociation.
If someone who's in level two, likesevere dissociation and has this new
almost personality, would they be ableto, I don't know if they'd be able
(12:15):
to use the, they need literal safety.
Okay, great.
So now once they have literal safety,um, would they be able to self-regulate?
Would they be able, I do- like,they'd have to come outta that severe
dissociation first, and then once theydo that and then reconnected their
body, well, crap, now we gotta deal,deal with all this shutdown stuff.
(12:36):
And that's gonna be severe because it's,it's connected to numerous longstanding,
uh, trauma- traumatic incidents probably.
And then once you come outta shutdown,now there's gonna, well, it probably
wouldn't even be just shutdown.
There'd probably be a ton or freeze too.
So it's like, I think the leveltwo-ish kind of thing, my assumption
would be that there's not awhole lot of state exploration.
(12:59):
It needs to have literal safety.
And then can we slowly reconnectwith the present moment?
Probably not in a lot of safety,but like can we reconnect with
just the literal objective world?
And then can we start slowlybuilding towards the internal world?
And then if we can do that, then we couldstart doing some self-regulation stuff.
But that would be a, along process probably.
(13:20):
Yeah.
With this one client that came to mindand she had a severe dissociation and
for and with good cause, um, what helpedhers start to come out of it and we
would meet and like later on she'd say,I have no idea what we talked about.
And I couldn't tell because shewas so functionally good at it.
(13:41):
You know, functionally shecould come across like, yeah,
I'm here, but she wasn't here.
So we'd meet the next week and, andshe say, I, I remember coming in here.
But beyond that, I don'tknow what we talked about.
So with her, this dissociation wasso high that we just had to practice
literally connecting to like, what'shappening in this room right now?
(14:04):
What colors do you see,what can you touch?
Sensory kind of things.
And that, that was a process.
Took a while.
Then we had worked on feeling actualsafety and that was quite a challenge,
but she finally identified a blanket thatfelt good and so we felt that mindfully.
And then from there we builtinto other safety pieces and um,
(14:30):
and some actual self-regulation.
And she got to a point where she wasmuch more empowered, going to college.
Was presence, was ableto put boundaries in.
Like, she made huge progress.
And, uh, she, she did good.
But I, I, I guess the point isit was like, literally, can we
just be, can we just be present?
(14:53):
Not even like mindfully,but it's like, are you here?
You know?
It's not even like adeep mindful exploration.
It's just, are you here or not?
Can you name, can you, you know,feel things, I mean, tactically
I have my fidget basket.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
Like I said, fawn and appeasement areareas where I tend to deviate from
(15:14):
the official Polyvagal teachings.
I see them as behavioral adaptationsto a prolonged severe dissociative
shutdown or freeze state.
But what do you think?
I've also created a free resourcefor you in the member center that may
help you keep track of the officialPolyvagal primary and mixed states.
(15:37):
It's the Polyvagal One Pagers, andit'll help you to understand the
Polyvagal theory, foundational elements,including the primary and mixed states.
I will have the downloadfor you in the description.
You can also download all my freestuff in the member center, which I'll
also link for you in the description.
Thanks again so much for joining me.
(15:58):
Bye.
This was a great question from arecent unstuck Academy q and a, uh,
(00:04):
differentiating between Fawn andAppeasement, and then bringing in a deep
discussion of dissociation and recovery.
I wanna share with you, and I'mreally curious what you think.
I always ground my thoughtsin the Polyvagal Theory,
primary source teachings.
But this is one area where I splitoff from the Polyvagal Orthodoxy.
(00:26):
Hi, I'm Justice Sunseri.
I am a therapist and coach who helpsyou live more calmly, confidently, and
connected without psychobabble or woo woo.
Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.
This is of, uh, not therapy, uh, noris it intended to replace therapy.
Oh, and I removed as much of thestudents' audio as I could, and
I replaced it with AI versions oftheir questions and discussion.
(00:51):
I am struggling tounderstand fawn and appease.
I've only just begun the coursework, butwould like to hear your thoughts on that.
I deviate from the official Polyvagal,uh, Polyvagal Institute and Dr.
Porges doctrine on this, okay?
I deviate a bit.
So in the book, I believe it was thisone, our Polyvagal world, which is
(01:11):
written by- yeah, him and his son.
They lay fawning out as flight andfight plus shutdown, but I flight and
fight plus shutdown is also freeze.
So in very generic terms, they'resuggesting that freeze and fawn both have
(01:35):
the same underlying autonomic activation.
I personally don't like that.
Um, to me, to me, fawning is a behavior.
It's something that we would recognizeas a behavior or, or a way of thinking.
(01:56):
Um, it's, it's prioritizing somebodyelse, making sure their needs
are met as a way to placate them.
That is a specific behavior,I think comes from shutdown.
I would argue that fawning as abehavior is a solution to someone
being not a solution, but a, anadaptation to chronic and deep and
(02:21):
severe, shut down or freeze activation.
So I look at this as someone is in asituation that is severe, like an abusive
home, uh, hostage, hostage situation.
So like something that they cannot escape.
Um, and their state ischronically shut down or freeze.
(02:44):
I argue there's there's gotta bea lot of free- shutdown in there.
So to adapt to the, to that state andget their needs met, they fawn as a, as a
way to get their needs met and deal- andreduce the amount of danger in the- the
amount of life threat in the situation.
So that's how I conceptualized it, becauseone could have flight, fight and shut
(03:07):
down active at the same time and not fawn.
So it doesn't make sense to me thatfawning and freeze could have the same
underlying neural pathways, unlesswe look at fawning as a behavioral
adaptation to set down or freeze.
So same thing with appeasement, whichI'm a little bit more on board with.
Appeasement is, again, verycon- contextually driven
(03:31):
and behaviorally focused.
The context would again, be asituation where they cannot escape,
can't fight, can't run away.
Shutting down is not gonna work becausethey'll, they won't get their needs met.
They'll, they'll die.
So appeasement, they conceptualize inthe book as a combination of all of
the states active at the same time.
(03:52):
In particular, in a situationlike a hostage situation where
they, or a kidnapping situationwhere they can't escape.
And so one would appease, whichis, which is a, uh, general set of
behaviors they would appease in orderto reduce the amount of potential
life threat in the environment fromthe captor and the appeasement would
(04:16):
also help them get their needs met.
I would argue that appeasement comesfrom significant freeze or shutdown.
I would argue more shutdownpersonally, because when one appeases
or fawns, they are, um, they're,they're really depends- they're,
they could potentially be very much.
(04:37):
Acting in ways that are not in alignmentwith their true values, like very much,
I mean, they're pretty disconnectedfrom themselves at that point.
To me, that means there's a, there'sa ton of shutdown and probably
dissociation happening, which leads tothese behaviors to get their needs met.
Could a fawn or appeasement behavioraladaptation be a way to potentially
(04:58):
lessen the other person's defensivestates in your own interest?
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I, that'swhat I was trying to say.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's, it's, these are strategies andnot like they're, you know, someone's
not like blueprinting this stuff out.
Um, it's, they do what they haveto do to survive in this situation.
So appeasement in particular, becausethey, it does seem to have some
(05:19):
safety activation along with it.
So this person who can appease ha- theycan utilize all of their states in these
situations, and they can come across asa friend to the captor or as an ally,
you know, they can, like, I'm on yourteam, I'll help you hide from the police.
I'll lie for you.
(05:39):
Now, outside of that situation,that person probably would never
think of doing those things or feelgood about it or feel proud of it.
Right?
But in that context, those behaviorshelp to reduce the, the, the danger,
the literal, I mean the literal danger.
So they might help that captortemporarily just bring their fight
activation, probably their ragecome down enough to where that the
(06:04):
person who is appeasing or fawningcan, you know, get through the day.
So, with appeasement then, youwould need some amount of social
activation and thinking available.
Whereas in fawn, that might be different.
Yeah, you nailed it.
So appeasing is, there's a, there's a, i,I don't, it's, I don't think it's a true
(06:24):
social connected empathy; I don't thinkit's a true like ventral vagal state.
And that's- we could talk about it ifthat think is more complex, but like,
I don't think it's a true connection.
It's a pseudo connection,like a fake connection.
Um, or I don't know, may, maybethe person does truly feel it.
(06:45):
I, I don't know.
I, I, I, I don't know.
I can't get that part into it.
But regardless, there does seem to besome ventral activation in there to
come across as a friend, and then withfawning, it's not friendship, it's
more like, um, I'm, I'm invisible.
I'm not a threat.
Don't pay- don't pay attention to me.
So, if a person is receivingappeasement behavior, then they're being
(07:06):
co-regulated by it to some extent, right?
Yeah, exactly.
You nailed it.
So there is, there has to be like,if someone can smile at their captor
or use their vocal prosy to calmthem down there, there has to be
some sort of ventral activation.
So Yeah.
And it's very much aone way thing, I think.
Um, the, the person appeasing andusing those strategies is getting
(07:30):
their needs met, but they're not,they're not receiving co-regulation.
It's, it's very much aone- I'm giving you this.
And the person, the captor or the abuser,they're receiving it, um, not consciously.
They're not like feeling empathy and love.
They're like, it's not like that.
But they're, their defensive activationmust come down enough to just, you
(07:51):
know, get through that situation.
The way I think about this, and I don'tknow how to talk about this honestly,
so I'll, I'll try and I'll stumble.
In my mind though,
what, what, when we get deep enoughinto a shutdown state, when, when
our, what, this is my assumption.
I have no evidence for this.
This is how I think about it.
Okay.
When we get deep enough into shutdown,there's, there's dissociation.
(08:14):
We disconnect from ourselves andthat could lead to, in severe cases,
um, dissociative identity disorderthat could lead to derealization
depersonalization, like really justdisconnected from the self, but.
But we still have to function.
We still have to get our needs met.
We can't live in a dissociated statevery long at all, like a truly, you
(08:36):
know, dissociated or lemme start over.
When we, when we truly shutdown, we collapse, we play dead.
We cannot survive in that state.
So our bodies, human bodies inparticular, seem to have this ability
to disconnect from what's happening.
So even though it's a huge shutdownpsychologically or in our brain,
(08:57):
somehow we can- we can dissociateand then keep going somehow.
And through that dissociation, wecan actually take on what looks
to be like a new personality.
So that person who's a to me, that theperson who's appeasing, they're, they're
so disconnected from their authentic self.
(09:18):
They, they have to takeon this new personality.
I dunno how else to say it.
This new system- value, way ofthinking, way of feeling, way of acting.
They take on these, allthese new behaviors in order
to survive the situation.
I think the same thing is truefor someone who's in fawn.
They're, they're just deeply disconnectedfrom their grounded true self.
(09:44):
I don't like to get that phrase,but I don't know how else to say it.
So to me it's like once you getdeep enough into shutdown or deep
enough into dis dissociation, youstill have to get your needs met.
You still gotta go to work, you stillgotta appe- you still have to survive
in some situation that's horrible.
You gotta go to school.
And so it's to, to me, it acts as likea, a, a, a slate- like a clean slate.
(10:07):
It's not, but it's almost like,here's the first level of me.
I can't be this in this situation.
So shut down, wipes that away.
And here's a new level, level two,which is very compromised and is now
appeasing or fawning because I, Igotta survive, but this is not me.
And so once I get outta that situation,once I can get help and self-regulate
(10:30):
this level two person goes away.
Now we're back to level one.
But now level one has this shutdown,it has to deal with; this true self.
Now this, this self has to dealwith all that pain that it went
through and dis- dissociated from.
And that's where a whole due level oflike self-regulation has to come in.
But that's just me.
That's just the way I'm thinking about it.
(10:51):
I have no evidence to, nopolyvagal evidence to back that up.
That that's just how I think about it.
Maybe it's better as a metaphor.
If someone is well regulated,in situations or with potential,
um, predators, they would feeland push back against that.
But if it's a situation they can't escape,or if they were raised in a situation
(11:13):
they couldn't escape, couldn't fight from,couldn't even successfully shut down in,
well, what other option do they have?
But to kind of like give themselvesthis dissociative blank slate
and bring in a new personality.
Although sometimes I do think it isa literal new personality, but it
(11:33):
just to get through the day, to getthrough until they get to safety.
It's almost like a, I don'tknow how to talk about it.
It's almost like a reset.
It's like, um, version two.
But version one's still there.
It's just like way deep down andwe have to go through version
two to get back to version one.
I find that fascinating.
How does this relate tounstucking, recovery, and going
from version 1 to version 2?
(11:55):
I wish I had a great answer,but I don't have enough.
Um, I've worked withpeople who are dissociated.
But not, well, actually, that's not true.
I've worked with a couple peoplethat have severe dissociation.
If someone who's in level two, likesevere dissociation and has this new
almost personality, would they be ableto, I don't know if they'd be able
(12:15):
to use the, they need literal safety.
Okay, great.
So now once they have literal safety,um, would they be able to self-regulate?
Would they be able, I do- like,they'd have to come outta that severe
dissociation first, and then once theydo that and then reconnected their
body, well, crap, now we gotta deal,deal with all this shutdown stuff.
(12:36):
And that's gonna be severe because it's,it's connected to numerous longstanding,
uh, trauma- traumatic incidents probably.
And then once you come outta shutdown,now there's gonna, well, it probably
wouldn't even be just shutdown.
There'd probably be a ton or freeze too.
So it's like, I think the leveltwo-ish kind of thing, my assumption
would be that there's not awhole lot of state exploration.
(12:59):
It needs to have literal safety.
And then can we slowly reconnectwith the present moment?
Probably not in a lot of safety,but like can we reconnect with
just the literal objective world?
And then can we start slowlybuilding towards the internal world?
And then if we can do that, then we couldstart doing some self-regulation stuff.
But that would be a, along process probably.
(13:20):
Yeah.
With this one client that came to mindand she had a severe dissociation and
for and with good cause, um, what helpedhers start to come out of it and we
would meet and like later on she'd say,I have no idea what we talked about.
And I couldn't tell because shewas so functionally good at it.
(13:41):
You know, functionally shecould come across like, yeah,
I'm here, but she wasn't here.
So we'd meet the next week and, andshe say, I, I remember coming in here.
But beyond that, I don'tknow what we talked about.
So with her, this dissociation wasso high that we just had to practice
literally connecting to like, what'shappening in this room right now?
(14:04):
What colors do you see,what can you touch?
Sensory kind of things.
And that, that was a process.
Took a while.
Then we had worked on feeling actualsafety and that was quite a challenge,
but she finally identified a blanket thatfelt good and so we felt that mindfully.
And then from there we builtinto other safety pieces and um,
(14:30):
and some actual self-regulation.
And she got to a point where she wasmuch more empowered, going to college.
Was presence, was ableto put boundaries in.
Like, she made huge progress.
And, uh, she, she did good.
But I, I, I guess the point isit was like, literally, can we
just be, can we just be present?
(14:53):
Not even like mindfully,but it's like, are you here?
You know?
It's not even like adeep mindful exploration.
It's just, are you here or not?
Can you name, can you, you know,feel things, I mean, tactically
I have my fidget basket.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Stuck Not Broken.
Like I said, fawn and appeasement areareas where I tend to deviate from
(15:14):
the official Polyvagal teachings.
I see them as behavioral adaptationsto a prolonged severe dissociative
shutdown or freeze state.
But what do you think?
I've also created a free resourcefor you in the member center that may
help you keep track of the officialPolyvagal primary and mixed states.
(15:37):
It's the Polyvagal One Pagers, andit'll help you to understand the
Polyvagal theory, foundational elements,including the primary and mixed states.
I will have the downloadfor you in the description.
You can also download all my freestuff in the member center, which I'll
also link for you in the description.
Thanks again so much for joining me.
(15:58):
Bye.
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