The Conversation (1974)

In this episode, THE maybe Francis Ford Coppola calls into the show to plug his new film while Devon and Doug are discussing Coppola’s 1974 masterpiece ‘The Conversation.’ The movie house mooks delve into The Conversation's cinematic techniques, sound design, and character dynamics, while exploring themes of paranoia and surveillance.

 

Full disclosure. AI wrote that last part.

Too lazy.

Instagram : @studiopropertyshow

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
You're listening to Radio Free Reinkliffe.
Welcome to Studio Property, the cinema podcast for people like you.
My name's Doug Wartell.
And I'm Devon Erby.
And this week, we're going to be discussing The Conversation from 1974.

(00:21):
Who directed that joint, Devon?
I believe this is a Francis Ford Coppola situation.
So we're talking direction, production, and writing.
Yeah, it's got all three of his names on it.
My notes just have his name written down once with an arrow going down.
That's really good.

(00:42):
It's also shot by Bill Butler who shot John Cassavetes Big Trouble, Jaws most famously,also Cuckoo's Nest, and then some sequels.
He did Rocky II, I think he did III, maybe IV.
He also did The Omen II, which I don't know what your thoughts on The Omen trilogy are.

(01:02):
You know have real hard time with horror films.
Satan.
Yeah.
Satan, anything too ghostly.
I have a hard time sitting through that.
I'll do it, but I don't love it.
So the conversation also boasts a sound design that is second to none, and that is byWalter Murch, who also was recruited to edit the film as well.

(01:28):
That's an interesting combination.
just like all hands on deck kind of thing.
But have you ever edited anything?
Like I know your brother's an editor.
Yes he is.
If you've ever edited anything and saw this movie, you'd be like, wow, that isstorytelling.
Like there's some incredible edits in this.
But to break it all down, The Conversation is a kind of suspenseful thriller-ish moviefeaturing a professional eavesdropper who has a penchant for wearing his clothes to bed.

(01:58):
and he overhears something that concerns him while on a job.
And that's where our mystery begins.
But before we can get into any of that, we got to roll that theme song.
Hit it!

(02:20):
You
So that's studio property, your studio property.
Hey!
Shut your mouth or you'll never
So our movie begins with a God's eye shot of Union Square in San Francisco.

(02:45):
A beautiful shot, might I seemingly from heaven itself or just the top of that needletower, that Union Square.
I've never been there, never been to San Francisco.
me neither.
It's allegedly very nice.
Yeah, I have no idea.
I know there's a rice thing, they're really popular for some

(03:07):
rice product in the Something to do with trolleys?
Rice and trolleys.
Yeah.
And like skateboarding hills.
Maybe the season or two of Real World might've taken place there.
you might be right.
I believe it is the one with Puck.
dear goodness.
Yeah.
Look at me kicking it old school.
I know.

(03:28):
That was a real piece of Puck culture you just pulled out of your back pocket there.
Look at me.
Again.
Breakdance freeze.
Love it.
But in that shot, we see the first clue, not the plot-wise, but rather the inspiration ofthe film.

(03:48):
As you see a mime who pops in because the scene gets replayed throughout the entire movie,it becomes a moment in time that keeps getting referred back to.
The mime is a reference to the film Blow Up by Michelangelo and Tony Onio.
Antonio Neo.
Yeah, Antonio Neo.

(04:10):
Yeah.
That's his name.
It's just it's an extra neo on the end of Antonio.
So it goes on for a minute.
Yeah, apparently.
Yeah.
Extra Italian.
Extra Italian.
But it's an incredible it's it.
That's an incredible film.
Right.

(04:30):
But and we're and we're going to go come back to that also because it becomes a
point of reference later, but yes, put a pin in that, because that mime is very much areference to the film directly.
So just right away, it just lets all the film students know where you're coming from.
Yeah, you're immediately in a notebook in hand in class for film students kind ofsituation.

(04:54):
The moment the movie starts.
You're very much like, I got that reference.
I saw that film.
So anyway, it zooms in on Gene Hackman, which by the way, I'm wearing my conversationt-shirt because I don't know if you know this, Gene Hackman is one of my favorite actors
of all time.
I do remember that and I do enjoy the shirt.

(05:15):
Thank you.
I can't say that Francis Ford Copp was one of my favorite directors.
I can't say that.
No.
It's kind of hit or miss with him.
And I know Robert Evans famously said, like, if he slept through his own devices, thingscan go.
Freakishly weird.
So yeah, so I mean, yeah, I'm not here to spread rumors.
I'm just telling you, you know, right?

(05:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
These are matters of public note Right.
Yes.
Yes.
wait, know what?
gotta pause a second because you know what I like the the phone line I'm at the radiostation again.
yeah, of course So the phone line I turn the the sound off of it because I don't again Idon't know if we're allowed to answer right the ones and it's not lighting up anymore, but

(05:59):
it was lighting up so I don't know
I figured like, what the hell, I can answer it if it I mean, I don't see why not.
I mean, you're at the station.
There's no reason why you Nobody's here to stop me.
Nobody's here to, yeah.
If it rings again, should I answer it studio property or should I answer it with thestation?
I go like Radio Free Ryan Cliff?

(06:20):
Can you do both?
Which one?
Can you do Radio Free Ryan Cliff?
That's a mouthful.
It's a studio property.
I don't know.
I mean, it is a mouthful.
But so is Michelangelo and Antonio.
and Antonio, and you managed that.
Maybe I should answer the phone like that.
Yeah, let's do that.
Hello, you reached Michelangelo and Antonio.

(06:41):
Yeah, that's how you're going to answer the phone.
that's right.
Now they're going to do it on purpose because they just heard me say that on the air.
that's true.
Yeah, that is true.
All right.
So now we're definitely getting calls from somebody.
But anyway, Francis Ford Coppa, you know, not my favorite.

(07:01):
He's done a few masterpieces, right?
But then, you know, some clunkers.
And then there's like some like mid films that are probably my favorite of his.
Like, I think I love Rumblefish.
Francis work up a film.
I think I really love Rumblefish.
But that might be, you know, that might be incredibly subjective.

(07:21):
It's a pretty, you know, movie means a lot to me.
But, you know, before I say Godfather 2, I just have to point out.
I love rumble.
All the film kids just tapped out right then.
Film Twitter just moved on.
And they were like, no, this is not the cinema podcast for us.

(07:43):
Damn it.
This is the cinema podcast for the other people.
That's right.
The Pabos, if you will.
But anyway, the film immediately starts in this scene.
And it zooms in sort of next to the mime you get Gene Hackman and they're very closetogether and if you know anything about Gene Hackman that if he was not working if he was

(08:09):
not in character and a mime had gotten that close to the real Gene Hackman at this pointin his life that mime would be flattened because Gene Hackman is famously Was kind of an
aggressive person So To be fair to Gene Hackman though

(08:29):
I think anytime a mind gets that close to you, there's a good shot if they're gonna getflattened.
I mean, just saying.
He also in real life might have punched a homeless person in real life once.
I mean, yeah.
And I mean, when I say might have, I mean, it happened, it's documented.
Right, right, I mean, there is that too.

(08:49):
There was at least one person on the scene that felt the homeless person deserved it.
And that was Gene Hackman.
But, the homeless person called Gene Hackman's wife the C-word.
It's one of my favorite words, but unfortunately we can't say it here on Radio FreeReinkliff.
No we cannot.

(09:10):
But called his wife that word and there was a police report.
It was a whole thing.
Again, I'm not here to spread rumors.
I'm just telling you that there was, you know, really aggressive force on the set.
Right, right.
Right.
So that mime is lucky they were working.
Yes.
Actually,
Can I also say that Mime is very lucky that they're working because he's very annoying inthe opening sequence.

(09:35):
And it gets worse because as you say, it gets referenced throughout the course of thefilm.
We go back to it a lot.
And every time I'm like, I don't think you made any real bucks that day, bud.
Or friends.
Or friends, yeah, or friends.
I'm like, hmm.
And I generally speaking enjoy a mime.
But I was like, dude, no.
What, no?
Yeah, I do actually.

(09:56):
do occasionally enjoy a mime.
It is a weird quirk of mine.
Let's come back to that.
So what happens is, it turns out what we have happened upon as an audience is atriangulation of a choreographed surveillance scene, right?

(10:18):
So there's a couple walking in the park.
The woman is played by
Cindy Williams of Laverne and Shirley fame.
there is a microphone on the roof that looks like a sniper rifle picking up some of theconversation, right?
It's very intense looking.
Then you have a man on the ground holding like a bag with a wrapped president in it thatis all miked up in itself and he's wearing an earpiece.

(10:45):
very obvious earpiece, I feel like we have to add.
Yeah, he gets made almost immediately.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a little embarrassing for him.
but there's a lot of people on the ground and then he's just walking nonchalantly in andout of the surveillance van where his partner John Cazelle from Dog Day Afternoon, and the

(11:06):
Godfather pictures.
Yes, Is his partner.
Yeah, the other good Ford Copland movie.
Right.
So he goes in the van and there he is, his partner's there.
So what we have happened upon is,
Gene Hackman and his team on the job.

(11:26):
Right.
So he gets the tape back, you know, it's a standard gig for him, right?
So this is like a, gets hired by like almost a private detective in a way to, to surveilpeople and then turn over the tapes to whoever, to his clients, right?
Yes.
And sometimes it's to catch a cheater.
Sometimes you can only guess that maybe sometimes it's some political blackmail orwhatever it is, but

(11:52):
He's only the technician.
It's his gig.
And he reminds us throughout the film that it's not personal.
It's just his job.
And he's clearly very good at said job.
He gets the recording back and he's, and when I say he's really good at his job, it'sbecause he's clearly cleaning up all of this sound.
So as you said, the sound editing on it is spectacular because here they are showingyou're going through the process and you're hearing

(12:22):
all the background noise and how they're clearing out the background noise.
And they're literally trying to pick up this conversation between two people.
And we should probably add that in that initial sequence, they're in a park, there's a lotof people casually around, there are some buskers there, so there's some music going.

(12:43):
And these two people are very specifically maneuvering in and out of essentially a lot ofnoise.
And so Gene Hackman is back at his weird loft office and he's cleaning up all this soundso he can pull out this conversation to give it to the client.
the client from what we understand is just called the director.

(13:06):
Yes.
But he has a minion who he will get to eventually who was played by a very young, well,he's Harrison Ford, you know, BS, right?
Star Wars, cool guy.
Just Harrison Ford, yes.
Yes.
Yes, you're absolutely right.
And incredible clothing too, which we'll get to too, which I was very impressed with.

(13:28):
Specifically, the sweater toward the end of his run is pretty fantastic, especially for1974.
But what happens is, as any movie about surveillance in the 70s, which we learned from ourlast episode, is that this becomes a character study really quickly.

(13:49):
Yes.
Yep.
And we're back in the same zone as last week.
Yes.
Where people with very empty lives have very controversial jobs and live in reallyincredible spaces.
Like his work living space is wild.
Like he has this huge loft.

(14:09):
It's like completely empty on one side.
If you see there's garage doors.
Right?
And then his office only is like a little desk thingy in the corner, like this sort ofwall to wall desk with all this great audio equipment and scramblers and reel to reels.
And it's caged off and locked.

(14:31):
So then the rest of the room is weirdly large and empty and he's got this fancy ass cagedoff area.
if Francis Ford Coppola is anything, it's subtle.
What is metaphor?
Precisely, but we also learned pretty quickly that Gene Hackman's character who was what'shis name now?

(14:52):
It's like Harry call Yeah, Harry call has a girlfriend played by the late Terry Gar.
Yes, and that's a weird relationship because they're both Very odd and awkward But theywere sort of delightfully odd and awkward together.
This is nothing it was his birthday you find out.

(15:14):
Yep
Right, so he's working on his birthday, but he tells the woman it's his 44th birthday, sohe tells, I guess, his landlady.
Mm-hmm.
Who brings him this package that he's immediately suspicious of.
yeah, hardcore suspicious.
But then when he meets up with Terry Garry, tells her that he just turned 42.

(15:34):
Which either way, in the 70s, I feel like 40-year-olds were built different.
for sure.
Like they all look 70.
Yes, it's very disconcerting.
Did moisturizer not exist in the 70s?
Skincare at all?
I think moisturizer was out...
Well, we know eating well didn't exist.

(15:56):
Yeah.
That's true.
I feel like eating well didn't exist.
actually, in fairness, this is probably the first generation of kids that actually grew upon processed foods.
yeah.
And you know, that first draft couldn't have been...
no.
They hit them hard.
Mm-mm, that hit them hard.
At least in the looks department.
They all lived longer, but they didn't look good while they were doing it.

(16:18):
As you're saying that, because I'm sort of a child of the 70s, I just got that weird OscarMayer baloney aftertaste that just kind of got recalled.
Yeah, Like a trauma.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, little PTSD.
yeah, yeah.
So you have this really old 42 to 44 year old.

(16:42):
Mm-hmm with this Strange girlfriend who by the way sleeps in her clothing as well.
Well, it was like this nightgown with a robe That whole situation and her socks her socksthose were not socks of intimacy no, those were as a flight of the concords would call it

(17:05):
business socks is what those yes
Definitely business sucks.
And she's like, what are you going to tell me about yourself?
It's your birthday.
Aren't you going to share something?
Which is so clumsy piece of dialogue that could have only been written by one Francis FordCulver.

(17:25):
And and he's like, you know, he's kind of changing the subject.
And she's like, you know, I know you're here when I'm not here.
And I know that you I feel like you bugged my phone as well.
What you and your audience, you as the audience are led to believe that he probably doeshave this weird paranoia, maybe kink.

(17:46):
Yeah, at this point in the film, I think you know you could be going down one of twopaths.
Is it a kink or is he really just paranoid?
And I feel like you're sort of getting that little bit of a branch where you're like, ooh,what is happening?
Which way does his brain go?
Which way does his brain go?

(18:07):
But as the audience, it's like a choose your own adventure projection.
it really is.
What is it for you?
Yes, exactly what's happening.
Yeah.
I also felt really bad for the girl because I was like, Terry Gar.
And then I was like, poor Terry Gar.
also, meant also poor character or the fact that Terry Gar is dead or that haircut becausethat haircut was tragic as well.

(18:33):
It was kind of a combination of all the things.
Yeah, like poor like the character but then also I was like, the house dress the housedress socks.
Yeah, the socks those damn socks and then also the fact that like the character I was likeor her as an actress playing such a weird but not fun weird character and also she did

(18:56):
have to make out with Jane Hackman.
Poor Terry Gar.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway in in this sort of exchange between her and Jean Hackman where they share theone of the uglier kisses that we've seen my god, so far only here in episode two, right
like episode two.

(19:16):
We've seen a lot of weird Trendle bed Action.
now this weird stuff like he's fully clothed.
He's still in this translucent Sort of overcoat raincoat thing that looks like it's madeout of like a garbage bag
Yes, thank you.
What on earth is that coat?
And it was brown translucent too, which just looks really kind of Yeah, so gross.

(19:41):
Like a yard tarp.
He's wearing a yard tarp.
Thank you.
That is a very solid description.
And he's in her bed in his shoes and his yard tarp next to her in her housecoat, her robeand her business socks sharing the ugliest kiss that you've ever seen.

(20:01):
so far.
so far.
Honestly, it's going to take a lot to beat it.
Let's be honest.
Yeah.
It's going to take a lot to beat that ugly kiss.
Yeah, like it made the clute sex look pretty intimate.
Exactly.
So this thing happens and at one point she's asking him questions and he doesn't want toshare things with her and she just wants to know him and he gets sort of annoyed and heads

(20:28):
toward the door.
And then she looks at him and is like, I'm not gonna wait for you anymore.
And they break up like right on the spot, that's it.
Like that's the last we see of Terri Gar.
Honestly, I feel like at that moment I was like, I barely know you, but I'm really proudof you right now.
Cause I would have done the same thing.
I bet you she didn't wear, I bet you she changed her whole fashion sense after that day.

(20:53):
feel like, know.
100%.
She definitely stopped wearing business socks after that.
And that house coat went into the trash.
And another thing, there's a very important detail in that scene as well because shestarts singing this song and it's a song that he recognizes Cindy Williams having sung
when he was surveilling her.
Now, what was interesting about that is if it were a pop song of the time or if it waslike on the charts, right?

(21:18):
Like say it was like, I don't know like when Killing Me Softly came out or the reallyhorrible one that Maya Rudolph's mom sang, right?
the, la la la la.
Like that.
yeah, yeah.
It's not that, right?
It's a song called When the Red Red Robin Comes Bob Bob Bobbin.
Yes.
Right?
Okay.

(21:38):
Yeah.
So David Shire did the piano playing in the conversation and things, but this wasactually, think the Louis Armstrong version of that tune.
It wasn't like I'm saying, like it wasn't a popular radio hit in the time that this film
was supposed to have taken place.
So the idea that the two of them would be singing it made my mind go in a weird, like,ooh, is that a clue?

(22:04):
Because we're sort of forced in this, immediately forced into this sort of mysteryatmosphere.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Right, which just means they slow the movie down a lot.
So every glance, everything seems like it could be suspicious.
Right?
Yes, and we already know.
you know what, you know what?
Holy crap, the phone's ringing.
You want me do What?

(22:25):
yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Hello?
Good evening.
I understand you're talking about, you're talking about me, I think.
We're talking about you personally.

(22:49):
Hi.
Caller, what's your name?
Yeah.
All right.
So listen, I'm calling in.
My name is maybe Francis Ford Coppola, but it's not exactly.
Wait, what?
I'm sorry, say that again?
Anyway, I'd like to talk about my new film Megalopolis.

(23:10):
Wait, you're saying you are the maybe Francis Ford Coppola?
I am the maybe Francis Ford Coppola.
I heard...
I was just saying what a huge fan of yours I was.
I was just saying that.
he was.
How amazing every one of your movies, like you've never made a bad picture.
never.
perfect record.
That's very kind of you, very nice.

(23:32):
I was talking about, I've been talking, I've been on this press junket, this tour allover, talking about my new film, Megalopolis.
awkward.
To be the first thing that I have to get over is a lot of people think it's a dinosaurmovie and it's not a dinosaur movie.
A dinosaur movie?
What?
Yeah, Deb, did you see Megalopolis?

(23:53):
I didn't see Megalopolis, no.
this is what, I've been working on this for years.
people we were we were talking about other conversation your masterpiece from nineteenseventy four well we did that yet yet and she had with that gene gene right gene yet that

(24:14):
was that was something but mostly i'd like to talk about what i'm working on now i justdid this movie with the young guy new guy adam driver and
Wait, wait, Mr.
Copeland, Mr.
Copeland, if I can just ask you some quick questions because I didn't get a chance toprepare.
I didn't know that you were calling in.
And I know you really want to talk about Megalopolis, but really quickly, while I have youon, this is very important.

(24:38):
What was Marlon Brando like?
Marlon Brando, was a...
That was good, right?
was good.
Genius.
He was...
You knew when he came into the room that he thought a lot about himself.
And that was something that we all had to kind of get used to.
But he was, of course, everybody knows he was just such a great, great presence.

(25:04):
He filled up a room with a lot of his requests and I don't want to say whining, I'll saywhining.
He was something special.
And I just think that
Again, a lot of this has been written about and I just want to set the record straight.

(25:29):
We always got along until we didn't.
Okay.
Thank you for answering that.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
He was something.
was something.
It's a loss.
Yeah, really loss happened decades ago.
yeah, before we get back to, I know you want to talk about Megalopolis a lot.
I know you do, but I have so many questions.

(25:52):
If we can just avoid that other thing, because it's been a long time since our friendRobert Evans has passed away, do you have anything to say about Robert Evans?
A lot has been said about Robert Evans, about Bob Evans.
The one good thing he ever did was teach me the word putz, because that is what he is.

(26:12):
is a scam artist who never should have been allowed in Hollywood, never should have beengiven the power that he had.
He was in charge of Paramount and he drove me crazy.
Yeah, this is still controversial.
Of course you've heard about all the claims that he was heavily involved in the Godfather.
He was not heavily involved in the Godfather.

(26:34):
He literally wrote a book about it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that book.
that book.
That book is a piece of crap.
Can we quote you on that?
Sure, sure.
You can say that book is a...
Sir, you know you're on the air, right?
Like, this is a radio station.
Just so we're clear, you know Yes, okay.

(26:55):
I've been, you know, I'm telling you, I've been on this junket talking about my new movie,Megalopolis, so much that I don't know whether I'm coming or going, whether I'm awake or
asleep.
The dinosaur film?
no.
No, no, see?
That's what everybody thinks, because an opolis that apparently is some kind of dinosaurthing, I don't know.

(27:17):
But...
I will say- we get to that, so many questions there.
People are just writing in now.
Hold on, let me crumble some paper.
Yeah, people are writing in very, very quickly and sending it through the email somehow.
Listen, can you tell us, is it true that you gave your cast on the movie Rumblefish, youmade them smoke, was it smoke, marijuana and other substances to get their eyes bleak and

(27:40):
black and white?
Is that true?
Or is that just like an urban myth?
I didn't make them smoke it.
I had other people smoke it and blow it into their faces.
that it was, it was not so much that I was corrupting those kids.
gosh, what was Marty's son?

(28:01):
Emilio, Emilio, he, he, he was, said, no, no, I, I'll, I'll smoke it.
I said, no, no, don't worry.
I got other people here to smoke it for you.
Blow it in your face.
It's going to be fine.
Sir, Sir Emilio Estevez isn't in that film.
You may be thinking of Matt Dillon.
Is that possible?
yeah.
Yeah.
What did I do with Marty's son?

(28:22):
God.
Well, maybe nothing.
He was always around.
So, yeah, I'm glad we're not talking about the past so much.
I really wanted to focus on my new film.
I've got a lot of people in it, a lot of great actors, a lot of really fantastic people.
God.
my God.
Actually, speaking of great actors, I really have to know about Gene Hackman in theconversation.

(28:44):
mean, the way...
That's what we're talking about, in fact, on the show.
I mean, he's so spectacular.
The paranoia he conveys.
I mean, I need to know, how was he on set?
Was he really like that?
I mean, he was so intense.
He's so intense in that film.
I'll tell you about Gene.
This is the thing about Gene is he's a brilliant actor.

(29:05):
like to...
I'm not what's known as an...
Actors director I don't get in there and noodle all the lines.
I don't get in there and tell them exactly how to say it or or Somebody else says you givethem a reading you tell them what kind of tone to take with it or something like that I'm
not that guy.
I like to hire people who know exactly how the character moves and behaves then I let themjust go and do their thing So so with gene, okay gene in there in the conversation

(29:35):
He had that conversation.
He had it figured out.
I'd go in there.
We kept him in kind of a little room.
Remember, it was a little cage.
He was in the cage.
Usually, we would go home at night.
The reason he was so paranoid, everybody else would go home at night.
I locked Gene in the cage.
He had to be in there the whole time.
I think we went six weeks.
It was a method.
It was method.
He was a method guy.

(29:56):
He was really method.
He told me, he said, I'm very method, Frank.
I really, really want to do this.
He said, in...
Bonnie and Clyde, I wanted them to shoot me for real.
I mean, I believe it.
What I'm wondering about also, really quick, mean, Dev, how often you get to talk to maybeFrancis Ford Coppola?

(30:17):
I mean, never.
mean, like- Do we expect that tonight?
No.
No, no.
Not at all.
Well, I have a conversation for you.
Have you seen Megalopolis?
You know, it's a it's a bad put so much time.
Hold on.
Hold on.
I got to fix my mic.
My mic.
My mic is weird.

(30:39):
all right.
That's a that's a little feedback.
I think that's on my I think that's on my end.
That might be on my end.
You know what?
I think it is on your end.
I think it is on your I think maybe maybe that's it.
We'll have to catch.
We'll have to catch up with you later.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you for calling in.
We really appreciate Call in at any time, sir.

(31:00):
I really hope we this thing worked out.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Is he off the line?
I think he's off.
I think he is.
Wow.
That could have gone bad.
It could have.
Nice save, by the way.
Yikes.
thank you.
Thank you.
But anyway, let's continue.
Where were we in the film?

(31:21):
where were we in the film?
we were just leaving.
Terry Gahr and Gene Hackman's awkward breakup.
Yeah, yeah.
So she tells him that it's kind of over, right?
But then immediately after he goes to turn over the tapes to get paid for his work, right?

(31:43):
Yep.
And when he gets to the client, he's met by Harrison Ford, who is just the minion of theclient, known as the director.
Harrison Ford gives him $15,000, which in 1974 was probably $7.8 million.
Probably.
But also in that moment, he doesn't take the money because his instructions were to givethe tapes to the client himself.

(32:07):
And Harrison Ford is pretty insistent that he had authorization to get them from GeneHackman.
So Gene Hackman says, like, yeah, I know you have your boss, touch me and I'll hand themto him himself.
goes to the elevator where he is not only followed by Harrison Ford, but he runs into themale in the couple that he was surveilling in the first place.

(32:30):
Do we have his name?
I think it's Mark.
Yeah, Mark and Anne are the couple that have been recorded.
And they are the flashpoint in which the movie revolves around.
What happens is he runs into Mark in the elevator well, gets into a different elevator,and as he's going down in the next floor, well, Anne gets on the elevator.

(32:58):
So, you know, awkward.
Right.
Super awkward.
To say the least.
And his character is awkward.
So you feel the awkwardness and then you visually see the awkwardness.
Well, also what makes that a million times worse is how claustrophobic that
elevator shot is like I would not be surprised if that's like a soundstage elevator orBecause I can't imagine a camera getting especially all those big old Panavision 70s

(33:25):
cameras Getting that far back to have that many people unless it was a just a very wideelevator And it's just shot.
I don't know what a funky lens.
I don't know.
I'm not a film student Yeah, I don't know but I just know I felt really uncomfortable
in that elevator before Cindy Williams got on.

(33:45):
Yes.
And then she gets on and you're like, this is, boy, this is no good.
Yeah.
as he's going down to take care of that, he goes back to the office or, and is this themoment where he starts monologuing his own character bio?

(34:08):
Yes.
He's talking to
John Cazelle, right?
Where he's like, by the way, plays sort of the foil character.
Yes, he does.
they're back in the office and he's playing the tapes again because he hears something therest of us doesn't yet because we're doing this a while.
Right?
And as you said, this is also following the fact that he's had now this super weird,awkward moment where both of the people he was surveilling were in the building where he

(34:37):
was going to drop off the tapes.
The guy was supposed to drop them off to weren't there.
that paranoia has increased, which I think has exacerbated his need to go back in and belike, I need to listen to these again.
Something's wrong.
There's something else going on.
you, all of the travel that we just described to this office and back is punctuated bylong shots of bus rides set to jazz piano.

(35:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
Seemingly never ending jazz piano.
Like he might live in a world that
like a great spell has been cast on and the caster was maybe a dead jazz pianist.
Something.
Yeah.
Also, why is he riding the bus?
He just got paid $15,000.
Why is he riding the bus?

(35:25):
in that moment, in fairness, hadn't, he returned that money.
This is true.
But I I assume this is about his standard fee is where my brain went.
So then I was like, why are you riding the bus if this is your regular fee for a day'swork?
Right, it's another thing.
also speaks to his like, well I'm glad you brought that up because it also speaks to his,and there's evidence of this throughout the movie, of his desire to have connections with

(35:52):
people and be around people.
But once he's there, he can't deal with it.
Like he can't deal with people on any interpersonal level at all.
Yes.
And in an appropriate way where you feel good about this character.
Which was a big theme.
And he's like,
films.

(36:12):
Yeah.
Especially in the new Hollywood era.
It is interesting that there is, you're right, there is sort of a consistency of a realawkwardness for people who, and I don't know, is there, was at the time, was there sort of
a feeling of if you're going to be that paranoid, you clearly have other things going on?

(36:32):
Yeah.
Well, that's another thing is he's talking to John Gazelle and he's
trying to sift through this tape, he's sure he hears something that he can't quite makeout.
He's saying to him like, I don't want to be around people.
I told you I'm a lonely guy.
Like it's just, the brilliant writing of maybe Francis Ford Coppola, that is really kindof whacking there.

(37:02):
mind you, this is a critical, this movie was a critical darling when it came out.
In fact,
it was nominated for best picture alongside The Godfather 2.
So like he had two movies in the same Oscar ceremony nominated for best picture.
One come out earlier in the year, one come out after, one significantly bigger of a filmthan The Conversation.

(37:29):
I believe that's only happened like four times where like a director, producer,
whoever gets credit for best picture where they've had two films in the same year.
It's only happened like four times.
And it never passed like 1980.
Right.
Because like it takes a lot longer to make films.

(37:51):
Right.
In this century than it did, which is now by the way, we're reaching the 50 yearanniversary of the conversation.
yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Back then, it was like record albums, like when bands put out like Led Zeppelin would putout like two albums a year.
You know, why they didn't let like these bands didn't last long in the 70s, because theywere putting out two records a year.

(38:17):
But like, yeah, I mean.
Yeah, that's it.
But like, but I mean, they're like half the length, right?
So mean, that's true.
That's true.
It comes out in the rinse, really.
But like, yeah, I mean, it's a weird, it's a weird situation.
Where you have like you're at the Oscars like we should have asked him when he was on.
Dang it, I didn't think about an Oscar question.

(38:37):
Like was he worried that it might have split the difference?
that would have been a good thing to ask.
Nobody on earth would have voted for the conference.
You know what else was nominated that year?
Frickin' Chinatown was in the running too.
Are you kidding me?
Like Chinatown, the conversation, like are you serious?
Like the only thing that could have beaten Chinatown was the Godfather 2.

(39:00):
Right, right.
It's almost like the conversation was nominated because somebody was like, this is reallywell made, sorta.
Sorta.
Yeah, I mean, the performing granted like Gene Hackman's performance is and there'susually two layers to a Gene Hackman character.
The representative and then the one that's waiting to lunge out, right?

(39:26):
Never more evident than like Hoosiers, right?
Or
Mississippi Burning, right?
Can I tell you something really quick?
I'm gonna sideboard really quick.
I'm gonna tell you something.
We're gonna go on a journey for a second.
A friend of mine and I once spent a summer watching every Gene Hackman movie.
Not kidding, there's a lot too.
There's a lot of Gene Hackman movies.
We watched them all in chronological order, right?

(39:47):
Even Bonnie and Clyde all the way down, right?
So like, I'm not gonna lie, it's a rocky road, right?
But when it's up there, holy shit, is it up there, right?
Like you can't even believe a performance like Hoosiers.
He's almost in every scene in that film, right?
yeah.
That's an unbelievable performance, right?
French Connection, right?

(40:08):
Like, holy crap.
Mississippi Burning, incredible thing.
There is a weird gem I need to talk about for two seconds because it's one of these moviesthat were like, since we're in this film that is often thought of as a cover version of
another film.
Right?
a lot of people find this to be William Freakin famously dissolved the company that he hadwith Ford Coppola because he thought this movie was a rip off of blow up.

(40:34):
Right.
And Ford Coppola admits that he's like, was, was like, no, it was an homage.
I'm, you know, I really loved the movie and Freakin's like, nah, you really ripped themovie off and what are you doing?
But I always thought like when you remake a movie, it should be a less than movie or amovie that like was almost there.
You were all, you almost had it, but maybe it was marketing or maybe it was

(40:54):
Maybe you didn't have the right ingredients, but man, you had a great idea there.
And here is one of them.
It's it's a Gene Hackman film with Matt Dillon, right?
Okay.
Called Target.
I believe it's called Target, right?
And the premise is, yeah.
So like Matt Dillon comes home.
He's the, he's the kid who hates his dad.
His dad is Gene Hackman who works at a lumber yard, complete, just middle of the road,Midwest and schmuck, you know, just like hardworking guy, like

(41:23):
kind of like from some bygone leave it to beaver era, right?
And then he gets a phone call and essentially they're telling him, we got your wife.
As you learned earlier in the film, she took a trip over to Europe, right?
We got her, right?
He puts down the phone and he has to tell his douchebag son who he hates, like, heylisten, your mom's been kidnapped.

(41:53):
Not only that, but I have like kind of the secret James Bond life and I've had it sincebefore you were born.
And it's taken before taken.
Right.
But it's like father and son taken.
Right.
And then Matt Dillon has to go to like France with his dad, he now thinks is the coolestperson on planet.

(42:14):
Right.
Yeah.
And then like gets to meet all of his cool spy friends and sleep with all of like his spyfriends, like the women spies and stuff.
because he's Matt Dillon, right?
Right.
Just, you know, then they, of course they rescue the mom and then like, holy crap, likethis guy just had like the greatest summer with his holy crap spy dad, right?
Like it's almost a fantastic movie, but it's made in like 1980 something and it looks andsounds exactly how you think it does.

(42:42):
my gosh.
But it's a great idea.
was just, I remember it being like a high point of our Gene Hackman marathon.
Okay.
Well, I'm gonna have to I have not heard of it.
I've not seen it.
I'm gonna have to do this.
sounds fun.
I recommend it.
Ish.
Ish.
mean, well, and your description of something where it was almost there, but not quite.

(43:07):
And then you take it and, you know, you take it to the next level because I mean, have toadmit taken is ridiculous and completely, you know, yeah, there's
It doesn't matter what else Liam Neeson has done.
The only thing he's ever done in the eyes of the entire planet is have a special set ofskills.

(43:27):
The guy is a classically trained actor.
Right, right.
You know, nobody remembers anything he did before that Star Wars film in this.
Yep, that's it.
unreal.
In the landscape of pop culture anyway.
Right, right.
Wow.

(43:47):
So yeah, we went on that journey, but what we do learn about his character in theconversation is he's also very religious.
And when he's not monologuing and trying to sort of telegraph what his character is to theaudience when yelling at a friend about nothing, the device of the confession booth serves

(44:09):
as our window in.
Right, right.
Okay, so from here, we actually, at this point,
get to a portion of the film that I probably my favorite part of the film, because I feellike it had no relevance at all, but still like entertained me immensely, which is the

(44:33):
conference for surveillance people.
So we had, right?
And I was like, because they were talking about it earlier and I'm like, no, that's not athing.
And then this so he's yelled at John Cazale.
at work.
He's he's gone to confession.
He's gone to confession.
And now they're all going to this basically spy conference.

(44:57):
And yeah, it's it's magic.
And of course, it's classic where there's like the ladies who are dressed nicely, who arelike, come look at my booth.
Right.
They're like, let me explain this amazing piece of recording equipment.
my God.
That whole thing is like wiretaps like they're hot rods.
They're like, look at the ST six.
Yeah.

(45:17):
And their little hot pants.
Yes, yes.
And then the guy who, excuse me, the guy who is showing off whatever his gadget is to GeneHackman's character and then was like, can you take a photo with it?
I mean, like it's so relatable to today where I'm like, he's asking you to put it onInstagram that you like his product is literally what's happening right now.

(45:40):
And it's all the same.
But because what happens in that moment is we're learning as the audience that he's a bigdeal in this world.
Exactly.
It's not just his job.
He's a celebrity at this job.
And when he goes to the convention, it's very much like, wow, Frank's here.
Yeah.
yeah.

(46:00):
You know, and all of a sudden they all want to hang around Frank and they all want to talkto him about nerdy surveillance equipment.
know, frankly, frankly, I had this experience a lot.
I have this experience a lot because not me personally, like I have a friend named Toddwho writes comic books.
I can't go to a comic, you know, he wrote Spider-Man for a while.
I can't go to a comic store with him.

(46:21):
Okay.
Yes.
But yeah, but can you take a picture with us?
Every time.
So I can't go to a shop with him.
I get it.
I get it.
Well, clearly that is, that's what happens.
This is what happens.
And knowing how awkward jeans
Gene Hackman's character is throughout the whole first part of the film.

(46:43):
Watching him be the celebrity is ridiculous in that moment.
Because you're like, is he is he a celebrity?
And everybody's so excited.
And then they so and then of course, like all convention type situations, there's an afterparty.
So they're all going to hit the after party.

(47:04):
and the other little side is his buddy, John Cazale.
Like they literally had a fight the day before and now he's working for some, other guynow at the convention.
like some up and coming, surveillance guy who, who worships Frank himself.
And then, but there's a couple of things in that moment that play out later, right?

(47:26):
Like the guy plants a pen.
He's like, Hey, take this pen and like, you're going to take a pen from a guy in asurveillance thing.
Like we saw this coming a mile away.
Right.
Exactly.
But then also the guy has like this sort of chip on his shoulder when it comes to Frankand it's evident right away.
Yes.
But it plays out at the party you're about to describe.
Now take us there.

(47:47):
All right.
So the party, first of all, we also get another little side, a little side adventure,which I thoroughly enjoyed, which is they all cram into the same car to go back to Frank's
crazy loft caged office situation.
And they're following somebody for some random reason.

(48:09):
And one of them's like, it's okay, their driver is, he's like the best, you know, followguy out there.
So we get to randomly see a like, almost like a car chase, but not a car chase.
Like they're doing a follow, like follow this car situation for no reason.
Doesn't do anything for the story.
And it's never explained.
It's never explained.

(48:30):
Never explained.
And also while that's happening,
because it's your classic convention, they've picked up some chicks.
And of course it's a, you know, 1974, her, the her car, whatever, some sort of land yacht.
And it's like two bench seats.
And there's like, I don't know what, five, six men and at least three ladies crammed ontotheir laps.

(48:53):
It's ridiculous.
So that whole thing, I'm like, what is all this happening?
I don't know what I'm allowed to say.
Can you...
Can you describe said chicks?
said chicks give off a, you know what I'm going to say?

(49:16):
I'm going to say puck bunny for surveillance men.
Okay.
That's worse than what I was going to say.
was going to say prices right employee.
If it were a porn.
yes.
no, that's also a good description.

(49:37):
Okay.
So I feel like, you know, for our listeners that I feel like that's fairly descriptiveenough, right?
Like essentially, you know, it's ladies who are like, it's a convention with some fancyguys who clearly want some action.
I'm going to get a little entertainment.
But they're also age wise, maybe 42 if you're living in 1974.

(50:00):
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's the other brilliant thing is none of them are your classic.
I'm just picking up a hot chick.
from the bar, they're right.
Very average prices, right?
Ladies, maybe a little bit of hand modeling, but like that's it.
That's it.
That's all they do.
Seriously.
That all I could think was like, yeah, they're it's like, let's say the one I'm thinkingof, I totally lost my frame of thought.

(50:27):
Which golden girl?
Yeah.
Which go, yeah.
Which golden.
my God.
So they've got their ladies and they're all getting drunk.
and
It also had a real classic 70s vibe, or I should say 70s and pre 70s vibe when they getback to Gene Hackman's office and they pull out a bag of ice and they're like, we can
start the party because we actually have ice for the cocktails.

(50:49):
And I'm like, that's in every old movie where there's heavy drinking.
And I've always been like, why is the ice a thing?
It's the party started clapboard of the 70s movies, right?
It's like, just like, okay, party scene, take one and then ice.
Yes, exactly exactly right.
my goodness, so they're like, yeah, so our party starts with the ice They're all clearlygetting drunk These ladies don't seem to have a preference as to who they go home with

(51:20):
it's a little disconcerting and at some point, yeah, this sort of there's some Wheel ofFortune and going around like any takers any takers.
It's a weird Yeah, it's a very uncomfortable and then at some point
John Cazale turns up in that loft with a Vespa and he just drives a Vespa around.

(51:42):
Where did the Vespa come from?
Yeah, and he's like driving it around the loft, which was, know, and that looked, I mean,not if it didn't look like fun.
I I wouldn't have picked red if I was a Vespa driver.
Right.
you know, beggars can't be choosers.
say, it looks like fun.
Yeah.
Indoors in the warehouse, right?
Yeah, indoors in the weird warehouse.
Yeah.
So.

(52:02):
But I will say,
I watched the behind the scenes of this specific scene, which is available on YouTube.
It's only like eight minutes long, right?
And here you get to see Gene having to explain that there's like four stages to thisscene, because he had emotionally, where he has to go from like trying to socialize and

(52:22):
being at his like awkward default, right?
To also in this moment, you could help me explain this a lot better.
There's a competitive thing happening with the guy who put the pen in his pocket.
There's a bit of prying regarding an old job that apparently everybody on the street knewabout in that community.

(52:48):
So they're trying to get trade secrets out of him, but also goad him as if your equipmentis old, you're only going to be on top for so long and I'm the up and coming guy.
It really does cover it too, because those are the tears.
yeah, from the social, trying to socialize standpoint, he's off away from the crowd.

(53:10):
He's with one of the gals.
I don't know which one, one of the Wheel of Fortune ladies.
And he's talking- Right.
Presumably the one that does plinko.
Yes.
Yes.
Clearly the plinko gal.
And he's clearly, she wants to be impressed.
There's a reason she's a surveillance junkie.
bunny, whatever we want to call her.

(53:32):
And so he's trying to tell her about himself and his job and clearly isn't good at tootinghis own horn.
And he's doing a terrible job and it's awkward and uncomfortable.
And it's broken up by the by the Vespa popping out because then she's like, we Vespa,right?
So then that breaks that up.
Right.
And then yeah, then there's like you said, there's the competitive point where

(53:56):
as we had already figured out the pen that the other guy gave him.
And by the way, the up and comer doesn't look that much younger.
It's like, said, right?
Cause like you said, they're, you know, this is, you know, 40 year olds in the seventies.
And I'm like, how old is this guy?
Which are 60 years old, 60 year olds.
Exactly.
Yeah.

(54:17):
Then they have the moment of like,
you know, guess what?
The pen was really a listening device.
And then he starts to play what he's recorded, which just throws Gene Hackman's characterover the ledge.
Into a tizzy.
cannot handle it.
So he goes from, because it represents a few things, right?
An invasion of his privacy, because what he picked up was the conversation he was havingwith the Plinko girl.

(54:45):
With the Plinko girl.
What the guy was trying to do is also impress him a little bit.
Like, you know, like look where technology is gone, but also I got one over on you.
So there's a bit of that.
There's a bit of.
Maybe I am a dinosaur and then there's a bit of, wait, we were just bragging about me fora really long period of time and I was really, and I had the room for a second.

(55:07):
And you know, so there's that.
So in that behind the scenes is explaining the tears of having to get from.
just socially awkward to almost emotionally violent.
And then what happens is, is he kicks everybody out of the party and he ends up, well thewoman sticks around, Plinko girl sticks around and then literally has to put him on the

(55:33):
bed, again in his clothing while she gets undressed and presumably they, you don't see it,which thank goodness.
yes.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, you don't see what has happened, but you can only assume.
awkward is name a game.
Yeah.

(55:53):
What happens when they wake up?
Okay.
So when they, when he wakes up, she's gone and the tapes are gone because I remember theday before he's been working on those tapes again for that client.
Now, when you say work on those tapes, he had, he had bound a line.

(56:15):
that they didn't initially pick up, which he kind of suspected was there, as he's using ascrambler, which was a cool, visually really cool looking device.
And I gotta say, like the editing in that scene of the discovery is fantastic.
The closeup of the equipment back to his eyes, closeup of the reel to reel back to hiseyes.
That was really fantastic.

(56:35):
It reminded me of Clockwork Orange, where Alex is fixated on the naked statue of the threeJesuses, and it's shot.
And you see the wrists piercing back to his eyes, the feet back to his eyes, theirgenitals back to his eyes.
Like it's that sort of back and forth in that editing and the pace of it is going alongwith the sound design and also the music.

(56:58):
It's those things that make the film like, wow, that was artful and wonderful.
There only been a story, but what happened, I'm really exaggerating, I'm being facetious.
But what happened was like in that discovery, he hears the line, you know he would kill usis the line he hears.

(57:22):
And that's how we, the audience hear that line.
You know he would kill us.
So he's fixated on that line.
Before they wake up, however, there's a dream sequence.
my God, the dream sequence.
What on earth was that Francis Ford Coppola?

(57:45):
You can't help but to think about how the dream sequence was made because it's just himchasing after Cindy Williams as she's up a hill.
Yeah.
Or with a fog machine.
Yes.
That looks like it's over the film itself.
It doesn't even look like it's in the scene.
Like the fog looks like it's over like somewhere like like there's another reel of filmbetween the action.

(58:11):
And you, there's like this sort of overlay of fog machine that doesn't make any sense.
Almost like they later were like, you know what we missed when we were filming this fog.
Can we figure out how to put fog in pre CGI?
And they're like, yeah, we can do this.
So weird.

(58:32):
You got God for the money now, buddy.
We could do anything.
my God.
So
But what's stranger about the dream sequence is the things that come out of his mouth arelike childhood confessions.
Yes.
If I'm in the dream sequence and I'm talking to you, right?

(58:52):
Like it's like, the only, and I hear you on this tape going like, you know, they'll killyou.
He'll kill you, right?
Confirm that I'm not exaggerating when I say the dream sequence was essentially like, HeyDevin, when I was four,
I lived in a bad neighborhood and the concrete from the wall fell into the tub once and itcut my knee open and that was the first time I ever got stitches.

(59:13):
Yes.
The bathtub was full of blood.
You know he's going to kill you.
Yes.
Right?
Like it's essentially, that was it.
my God.
my God.
I was afraid of polio even before I knew what it was.
You know he's going to kill you.
Yes.
Devin, I had a Chewbacca sticker on my wall from the time I was six years old.

(59:34):
And I didn't want to take it down long after it browned.
You know he's going to kill you.
my God.
Yes.
None of these are exaggerations.
None of them.
It is so weird.
Even for 1974.
Yes, even for 1974.
OK, I kept thinking with the way the weird fog was, the way he was like chasing her in thedistance.

(59:56):
It kept making me think of the really intense, whatever it is, 16 minute dance sequencefrom American in Paris.
except that it was ending really awkwardly.
I was like, because it looks like it's going to be amazing.
instead, it's just him.
like Cindy Williams.
He's going to kill you.
How can I gain your trust?

(01:00:17):
Let me tell you my childhood secrets.
So it was like this weird like mashup of like confession, his like religious confessionalthing and his concern over what he's heard because of his job.
And this bizarre American in Paris kind of really crappy vibe.

(01:00:37):
Now in fairness, when the 70s do character studies, they don't over humor the audienceinto believing that whoever's watching could maybe fix that person.
Which is a lot of things nowadays are guilty of that.
When you see like, know, like, I see where the trauma comes from.
It's that linear and simple.
Yes, yes, exactly.

(01:00:58):
You know, like, so there's that.
But on the other hand, 70s trauma is so annoying.
Like it's, like I hate to say it like that, but really irritating and not really conduciveto.
Like kind of incoherent.
To interesting character development.
Yeah.
It's like, you know what they're trying to express, but it's just incoherent.

(01:01:20):
It's, it's babbling.
Yeah.
It's actually like real trauma, mean, I guess it's fair.
Yeah.
You know, your trauma is annoying because it's not really definitive and it's kind ofmentally like a big old cotton ball.
I don't know what it's making you just a dope like, but you know, like it would in reallife, but I don't want to see it in my film.

(01:01:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's happening.
my gosh.
So what ends up happening is that he wakes up from said dream, finds that the girl isgone, but he also finds the tape is missing.
He is not okay.
He is not okay.

(01:02:02):
And so we run into Harrison Ford again at this point because Harrison Ford was like, well,sorry, bro, but we did hire you to do a job.
You didn't, you didn't want to give us these tapes.
We needed the tapes.
Essentially what has happened is that woman was hired to steal the tapes.
And when he wakes up and finds them gone, there's a closeup of his face and he just goes,that bitch.

(01:02:24):
He does.
It's bad.
Yeah, it's bad.
Yeah.
and also based on your description of Gene Hackman, possibly in real life earlier, it feltvery real.
Like you're like, he's he said that about someone before.

(01:02:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that person was Wes Anderson.
Exactly.
Apparently he was really awful on the sudden time and Bob.
And if I'm being fair, telling both sides of story, like Hackman thought it was his last.
I think he might have made one or two movies after that.
I'm not entirely positive of that.
think he retired in 2003, but like that was 2000.

(01:03:08):
So came out in 2001, Royal Titan bombs.
And he thought it was going to be his last film, but he made it everyone's problem by allaccounts.
Like there's always these reunions like to talk about that film.
Like, and I'll take that shit on the road with like Gwyneth Paltrow and Angelica Houston.
you know, Bill Murray and stuff.
the first thing that comes up is what a monster Gene Hackman was on the set.

(01:03:31):
Apparently, according to Angelica Houston, he said, why don't you pull your pants up likea man?
He says, I don't know what that means.
I don't even know what that means.
But apparently he said that to what Sanders said at one point.
What a weird thing to say.
Yeah, you know, if you're born in 1930 and I think it was like Danbury.
in Illinois when the KKK existed.

(01:03:52):
I know that Gene Hackman's dad like split, he just split on his whole family, right?
So like he had a, he has a chip on his shoulder to begin with.
Not, you know, he's from a different era.
We'll say that.
Like, you know, it's Gene Hackman.
Yeah, he's from the past.
I will say, I do enjoy that phrase as sort of one of those, your pants up like a man.

(01:04:15):
You know, it's an insult.
You really don't understand what
what it means.
You don't you're like, what?
But you know you've been insulted and you've just been told off and you're like, God damnit.
You're but what?
You pull up your pants like a man and then you're like, I don't even know what I just saidbecause I don't know what it meant.
And your level of sensitivity can only be judged by the height of your pants the next day.

(01:04:39):
Like, are they up by your neck like Mr.
Furley or are they looser?
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
And you don't know which way you're supposed to go.
That is the watermark of
how hurt your feelings were after Gene Hackman was done with you.
So Gene Hackman has to go get his money.

(01:05:02):
Yes.
Because they say, look, we got the tapes, we're still paying you, bring back the remainderof the photos, let's call the square.
But yeah, but the director is here, he's gonna give you the money himself.
Right.
Now the director turns out is Robert Duvall.
A very scary kind of looking Robert Duvall.
So what happens is scary Robert Duvall, who's now heard on a tape that his wife is notonly having an affair, but there are hotel plans being made.

(01:05:30):
He's livid.
He's just like, take your money and go.
And Harrison Ford, who's sort of propped up as like the dutiful assistant, is like, look,you needed to know.
Then you find out that it was the assistant who hired them in the first place to bringthis to the attention of his boss.
And Hackman racked by, you find out at the party, a past experience in which somebody waskilled over his surveillance.

(01:05:58):
He's terrified that this is going to happen again.
And you infer this piece by piece through his confessions at the church and beingconfronted about a past job at his party.
He keeps playing that over and over in his head.
You know he's going to kill us.
He would kill us.
And he's like, what's going to happen to the girl?

(01:06:18):
That's where Harrison Ford says the sassy thing, like, you know, got paid for a day'swork, just hit the elevator and on your way, sir.
And now he's really upset because he thinks for sure Cindy Williams is gonna get killed.
He does, but fortunately for him, they've said where they're going and on what day they'regonna be there.

(01:06:40):
And they even say their room number, which I thought was like some real intensepre-planning on their part.
You know cuz they're like, all right hotel whatever room 733 so he's like, all right Well,I'm gonna go get the room next door and keep an eye out and maybe I can prevent this woman
from being murdered so he puts the wire taps through the wall and You know as he doesmm-hmm, and he ends up going on the balcony and when he hears screaming and sees through

(01:07:11):
the fog and the glass some blood and
Like now he's absolutely traumatized.
He puts a blanket over his head on the bed where he begins watching one show, but thenwakes up to the Flintstones.
This part's a little unclear.
it's, there's a real, don't know.
Did he take a nap?

(01:07:31):
Yeah.
I just saw a murder.
I'm tired.
Yeah.
There's like clearly some real intense trauma going on and I don't, I was like, are wesupposed to like feel how confused he is?
Like, cause did he?
You know, like you said, did he take a nap?
Was he just watching cartoons?
Did he black out?
Because he was so overwhelmed by what happened.

(01:07:54):
He was hyperventilating.
He was hyperventilating.
Yeah.
And when he sees the that moment where he sees the blood on the on the essentially the theglass, shower glass.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He freaks out.
I mean, that's real panic.
Now he believes that he had gotten this young woman killed.
Mm-hmm.

(01:08:16):
He gets into that hotel room the next day to see that the hotel room has been pristinelycleaned until he's checking under the bed, he's checking the shower itself, he's looking
for blood in the drain, nothing.
And until he flushes the toilet and blood comes up out of the toilet, which I have no, I'mnot a plumber, I don't know how that happened.

(01:08:40):
Well, and it looks like there's like,
rags in there too.
Like if somebody was trying to clean up.
so the toilet stopped up.
Yeah.
With blood and rags or something.
yeah.
If you're maybe a plumber out there and you want to call into the station and let us knowhow that could have happened, I'd really appreciate that.

(01:09:01):
yes, please.
Please do.
But I would really like to know because that's, I was confused by that.
Okay.
So I was wondering, did that actually happen?
Or was that part of his recovery from the PTSD of whatever the hell it was he heard andwhat he thought happened or what he was thinking was going on?

(01:09:23):
So was it real?
Was the toilet thing real or was it?
I took it as real.
I took it as real.
I feel like I took the toilet thing was real.
took I would have taken it as real except that then we the jump to the next scene.
We never find out what happened with the toilet in the hotel room.
We don't find out about the toilet specifically.
But let's walk down this road.

(01:09:46):
What happens is he ends up at the director's office and he learns about an executive who'dbeen in a car accident.
And it turns out the director was in a quote unquote car accident.
The director, the man who hired him, the husband had been killed.
And he rushes to the office and Cindy Williams is coming down the stairs.

(01:10:12):
being surrounded by press and her own assistants, what's going to happen to the companynow they ask.
And her boyfriend is standing off to the side and Harrison Ford, the assistant is on theother side.
And it turns out that they had all taken part in this murder.

(01:10:32):
Although I'm not sure, I'm not clear on the level of involvement of Harrison Ford or hismotivation.
Yes.
If he is involved.
Right.
You get the idea he's involved.
Like maybe it's a, they have a reason to want the director, have him no longer be incharge.
They want her in charge.

(01:10:53):
this, you know, so is there some sort of real business related subterfuge happening?
While this is happening, you get flashbacks of the actual murder.
Like he goes to confront her, she's sitting at the hotel table and the boyfriend comes outof nowhere, completely covered in plastic because he thought ahead.
and kills Robert Duvall while she kisses him goodbye and off to the balcony because sheknows she's being watched and she's apparently she's the one smudging the blood on the

(01:11:24):
glass and screaming because they know they're being followed.
Well because Robert Duvall's character they seem to think he's dead at one point and helike lurches at her towards the yeah so what so we realize what Jean Hathaway thinks of as
the guy coming, the director coming at her, Cindy Williams' character in turn is actuallyno, they're trying to kill the director and he lurches at her, but he's not trying to kill

(01:11:52):
her.
He's trying to not die, unsuccessfully.
Right, for he is unalived.
Yep, he is unalived.
As if this were, this was the big plot twist, which sounds like nothing, except you haveto remember that, as I mentioned earlier, this film has set a pace that is
rolling.

(01:12:13):
every sound, everything is suspicious around you.
So you're in this state of paranoia through the whole film.
The last shot of the film, we got an earlier shot of him playing saxophone because we alsofind out he's a musician.
He's a saxophone player.

(01:12:33):
He likes to play along to records lot.
Final shot of the film is he's in his kitchen again playing along to a record.
He gets a phone call essentially saying, we know you know.
And then they play back a tape of him playing the saxophone.
And what happens next, Evan?
He has the most brilliant, complete, paranoid mental breakdown.

(01:12:57):
I mean, just so utterly complete.
He's trying to figure out how they are recording him.
And because he's an expert in his field, he starts with all the normal places.
He checks the phone, he's pulling things apart, he's checking the lake fixtures, but hecan't find anything.
And so he gets intense and we get to a point where we see him peeling the wallpaper off,taking off the door jams so he can see if there's something in like the edge of the wall,

(01:13:29):
like between the dry, you know, in the drywall.
He's pulling up floorboards.
He destroys the apartment, utterly destroys the apartment trying to find where thisrecording device is, how this is being done.
And at the end is like, is it Mary?

(01:13:49):
Because he, of course he's Catholic and he has a little Virgin Mary statue.
And she's one of the only things he hasn't touched.
And then he's like, I need to check her out.
That moment gets a little weird.
because he goes to smash her and that's when you realize that I don't think it was likeclay or it wasn't porcelain.
It was like rubber.

(01:14:09):
was rubber.
It was so weird.
It's a rubber Mother Mary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he has to tear the rubber Mother Mary.
Right.
Which of course made me go, why was he smashing it?
If she was made out of rubber, he should have like grabbed a pair of scissors and likeripped to begin with.
But anyways, nothing's in her.
And then the last shot is the entire apartment.

(01:14:30):
destroyed while he plays the saxophone camera zooms out credits, right?
Yep.
And what I took from that is, you know what was surveilling him, right?
No.
The phone device that the guy had shown him at the convention.
Yes.
That he was displaying in the first place.
Right, right, right.
The his the upstart competitor was saying like, hey, look, you know, it's automatic.

(01:14:57):
You don't even have to start it.
In fact, if I call this number and blow this little whistle, I can hear what's happeningin my house right now.
Okay.
So that is where my brain took a little bit of a turn because because because okay, so I'massuming that's what I see.
related that to begin with because remember when so when they're at the convention and theguy is going through that demo, he says the first time you call, like you just have to

(01:15:26):
wait for them to pick it up and then
and then you do your thing and hang it up again.
OK.
Yeah.
So that's what happened.
He calls twice.
He calls twice.
So I, course, immediately was like, snap.
Little upstart guy who's not that young is using that tech to get through to him.
Right.
So I assume that's what has happened.

(01:15:46):
However, once he goes through the process of tearing the apartment apart, where I secondguessed it was he took the phone apart.
So, yeah.
So then I was like, he took the phone apart.
How did he not know that that, know what I mean?
he doesn't know what technology he doesn't know what technology is being used because he'sstuck in the past.

(01:16:08):
and that's what I took from it.
I think you're right.
And he probably wasn't paying that much attention to the demo because my thought was like,he was, they were all there for the demo.
So was like, how did he not figure that out?
Okay.
You're probably right.
Yeah.
Then he blows a saxophone being the dinosaur of even the field he's in.
Yeah.
That he was worn, you know, they sort of implied to be at the party.

(01:16:30):
Right.
That's what I think.
No, you're probably right.
Because I yeah, I just had like a real confusion because in my mind I was just like, no,he was there.
He saw the demo.
So he knew he should have known that that's what it was.
then, right.
Because OK, so was the point of that tech that you didn't have to have tech there?

(01:16:52):
at the place you wanted to surveil that it was done.
kind of how he was selling it.
Somehow done through.
See, even at that point, I feel like he should have just known all he had to do was openhis window and throw the phone out.
Cause the phone's gone.
You know, this exchange has given me a great idea for a new segment.
Okay.

(01:17:12):
And maybe we can try the segment together on the fly.
Okay.
In this segment, instead of doing a pond reflection this week.
Let's do Doug and Devin professional script doctors.
MDs.

(01:17:33):
So workshopping that part out.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
Clearly.
Yep.
What, what are the comments?
Cause a couple of the beats that could have made this movie.
If we were like, if we were spiffing it up, if we were spit shining it for today, werespit shining it.
let's see, what would we do?
I think Gene Hackman is perfect.
Yeah.

(01:17:53):
I think his character is perfect.
Yeah.
We're not touching his character at all.
We're just the things along the way in the plot that we could have.
Honestly, Terry Gar.
I mean, that girl didn't need to go through that.
I don't know what that gave us.
I don't know what I felt like.
I didn't feel like I was getting any more knowledge about his character.

(01:18:14):
from that moment.
There was enough to show me how awkward he was everywhere else.
Maybe, maybe to lean into this sort of girlfriend.
Like you can have a girlfriend, you're sort of disconnected.
I'm directing it so the girl's obviously Latin.

(01:18:35):
like specifically like Shakira, right?
So like when he's not with her, he's still like spying on her.
You know, on his lunch breaks and stuff.
And like that's intimacy to him.
that's, you know what I mean?
Something to that effect.
Because again, I like the I'm just disconnecting from people sort of situation.

(01:18:55):
I'm very comfortable.
Because the movie is relevant in the sense of like in the day of the internetrelationship.
Right?
So you sort of lean into that a little bit.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm picking- I mean, I still wouldn't put cell phones in the movie.
Right.
But if you're doing surveillance, would definitely play into that.

(01:19:18):
Yeah.
Okay.
Where that's your way in or your window into a relationship without actually having totouch or interact with a person.
That's solid.
I also would like that car chase thing.
I kind of want it to stay in, but I feel like it needs to have some moment of relevancebecause

(01:19:39):
I don't know because otherwise it's just it was a cool moment, but we like what what'shappening?
Why why yeah, I wanted a why I feel like we need a why for that You can we can keep it ifwe get a why there's another thing I'm trying to think I would like to keep that would I
keep the priest stuff?
keep all that Keep the guilt of the other job.

(01:20:00):
for sure.
Yeah, John Cazale.
I would like a little bit more clarity of
You know screw you I'm quitting because when I was like wait, we need the bigger fightthere We needed a bigger fight.
We needed a bigger fight.
Yeah, we needed to get personal.
Yes, right?
Yeah for sure Yeah, definitely like he needed to say some like end of season to bare shitto him.

(01:20:22):
Yes Yeah, sure for sure.
Yeah, then he then they that's gonna take a minute to repair.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm Yeah, I like that.
I like that Keep the whole convention.
That's wonderful.
god
I mean, honestly, the convention was my favorite part of the entire film.
Yeah.
And focus more on the actual mystery.

(01:20:46):
Yes.
Instead of the saxophone playing.
Yes.
I do think I would like slightly more clarity when he's in the hotel room.
Because like I said, I was like, was the flippin' toilet, was that real, was it not real?
I don't know what happened afterwards.
Just suddenly he's gone.

(01:21:07):
I don't know, just like a little more clarity there.
I'm wondering, I'm wondering which scenes were edited by the sound designer.
Like I don't wanna just assume.
Right, ooh.
Because that's where the editing gets a little, there's amazing editing, like in themoment where he's playing the tapes back and any of the organization of the sound.
Right.
All of that is great.

(01:21:28):
The editing of the actual murder is terrible.
Yes, yes, yes.
Do you absolutely.
It's not good.
no, it's not good at all.
Because again, feel like that whole the way they edit that the whole murder, the wholeflashback thing is almost like, are we just as the audience getting to learn exactly what
happened or is this what he's putting together in his mind, what he thinks has happenednow that he sees all the people, you know, he's seen all the elements together.

(01:21:57):
So is this what he thinks happened or is it actually what happened?
So I want some I want clarity there.
And then
What happens is, is because they know he knows, right?
They know about the job in the past or in some maybe foul play or maybe something he can'tprove his innocence on and they own him forever.

(01:22:22):
And then we have sort of a Rod Serling ending in the sense of like, you know, like, youwere the eavesdropper, but now you're the herd.
You know what I mean?
Like now you're the, you're forever, forever.
Your life's an open book forever.
Ha ha ha!
yeah, that would be good.
So those are my pitches if you're gonna remake the conversation in this brand new segmentthat we just came up with just now.

(01:22:47):
I like it.
I also wanna keep Harrison Ford.
If we're gonna keep Gene Hackman, I wanna keep Harrison Ford.
Well, I don't know that we, well, the character is not them as, was gonna say, cause-Yeah, Gene Hackman's 93 now.
I don't know, he might still be amazing.
He hasn't acted since 2020.

(01:23:07):
So then who would we put in it?
Who could who would we cast now?
that's easy.
Ryan Gosling, right?
yes.
Yes.
Because he was great in Blade Runner 2024.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he would definitely be the Gene Hackman character.
OK.
I got one better.
no, no, no.
I got it better.
And he just so happens to be the star of the new Francis Ford film, picture ofMegalopolis.

(01:23:32):
Which by the way is about dinosaurs.
Adam Driver.
Adam Driver.
Adam Driver would be brilliant.
that'd be good.
But he could play anything.
He really can.
Yeah, he's definitely one of those.
He could be the shark in Jaws and I'd still watch it like that kind of thing.
Yeah, he could be the Gene Hackman in anything.

(01:23:53):
He could be every Gene Hackman.
absolutely.
that's good.
Like Adam Driver in the Hoosiers remake would be.
And while we're at it, just to mess with our whole reality, let's turn it into a musical.
yeah.
Hoosier's the musical with Adam Driver.
I mean, I've Written and directed by Sparks, because why not?

(01:24:14):
We're already...
I'm in, I'm in.
Let's never do that, yeah.
So that is our wrap up of episode two, The Conversation.
We are your studio property.
My name's Doug.
My name's Devin.
And we will see you next week.

(01:24:35):
Studio Property is mixed at Spillway Street Content in Red Hook, New York and syndicatedon Radio Free Reinkliff.
Themed song by The Corner Bodega.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and follow us on Instagram at Studio Property Show.
Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week.

(01:24:58):
Okay, so this is our post credit stinger.
If you notice the company that produced this film is called The Directors Company.
It doesn't have a fancy name.
It's not even Zoë Trope American, right?
That's like, I know they put out like the reissue of it, but it's originally put out byThe Directors Company.
The Directors Company was founded by Francis Ford Coppola, right?

(01:25:19):
And the other two on board are Eric Bogdanovich and Billy Freakin, who did The Exorcistand French Connection.
So what happens is, yeah, so what happens is, is, you know, they, they were given anincredible green light from Paramount because Paramount is the, the, the funder of this
whole thing, right?

(01:25:39):
They can't go over budget.
You're allowed, like, I think, I forgot how much they were allotted.
I think the maximum was like $3 million per picture or something, but they can't go overbudget, but they can make anything they want.
And they split it.
They split the money three ways and they're golden, right?
Their initial fee they they split it three ways.
So, Eric Bogdanovich immediately makes Paper Moon, which is a smash hit with Ryan O'Neilland Tatum O'Neill.

(01:26:05):
Great movie.
Probably his best film, right?
I don't even think he has a hit that big until the 80s when he makes Mask.
And it still is, that is his biggest Paper Moon relatively, I don't know.
it's a smash hit.

(01:26:26):
So off to the racist goes this company, right?
So then Francis Ford Coppola, he's the next one up at bat.
What does he put out?
A movie based on a short story that he wrote in the late sixties, but is propelled by theidea of the surveillance that took place around Watergate, which was absolutely an
accident, right?
Even though the same equipment is used in the film and we're talking about theconversation.

(01:26:50):
Conversation comes out, no one sees it, but the critics love it, but no one saw it.
Like it was in
was not a successful film at all.
I think more film students have seen it to this day than anyone.
So, you know, Critical Darling is still nominated for best picture.

(01:27:10):
Immediately Bogdanovich's reaction is, and I quote, you F'ed us, Francis.
Right.
Like, the hell.
Right.
So I got to keep a safe radio.
So, meanwhile, Billy Freakin is he's getting ready to take his shot.
Right.
But
He's already like, I don't like this conversation thing.
And he does not think it's an homage to Michelangelo, Michelangelo Antonio's film.

(01:27:36):
He thinks it's a direct rip off.
So he doesn't like the movie at all.
Like he doesn't even know what the critics see in it.
He's like, I don't even know what movie you made here.
do you just, what are you doing?
And then Bogdanovich goes and takes his other shot and it just tanks.
They decide they're just going to dissolve this company because it's a disaster.

(01:27:59):
But right before they dissolve it, they get a script from one of France for Francis Ford.
Cope was closest friends and freaking reads it, passes it to Bogdanovich and the two ofthem vote and they think it's terrible and they want nothing to do with the movie.
And the movie is called star Wars.

(01:28:24):
And that's the story of the director's company.
Dumbasses.