May 9, 2025 • 69 mins
Fifteen years ago today, Tim Brown was in a psychiatric ward, struggling with addiction and a distorted sense of reality. Now he's the founder of a successful marketing agency helping contractors across the country. This profound synchronicity frames our powerful conversation about recovery, purpose, and the journey to authentic success.
Tim's story isn't just about quitting substances—it's about discovering a new way of living. We explore how recovery provides a framework for rebuilding your internal compass after addiction disrupts your ability to trust your instincts. Tim shares how he's replaced artificial highs with genuine adventures, from silent meditation retreats that brought him to tears to swimming with sharks and building businesses that serve others.
The conversation takes fascinating turns as we examine the parallels between recovery principles and business ethics. Tim reveals how his approach to marketing for home service contractors mirrors his philosophy of recovery—creating genuine value, practicing radical honesty, and ensuring every exchange benefits both parties. We dive deep into the psychology of sales, discussing how to create authentic connections without manipulation.
Perhaps most movingly, Tim opens up about overcoming self-sabotage and learning self-compassion. "How would I treat a friend?" becomes his guiding question in both personal and professional life. He explains the fundamental difference between simply abstaining from substances and truly recovering—finding meaning, purpose, and joy through service to others.
Whether you're in recovery yourself, know someone who is struggling, or simply want to live with greater authenticity and purpose, Tim's journey offers profound wisdom about what it means to let go of control and find your true north. Join us for this candid, inspiring conversation about transformation and the unexpected gifts that can emerge from our darkest moments.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Corey Berrier (00:01):
Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast.
I'm your host, Corey Berrier,and I'm here with my man, Tim
Brown.
What's up, brother?
What's up?
Thanks for having me on again,brother.
I know a lot of folks inrecovery.
(00:22):
Anyway don't necessarilybelieve in coincidences or that
we tie this interesting meaningto things that I don't know.
It feels let me think about howto say this.
This is going to soundridiculous, but it's almost like
I can buy into the spiritualityside of it if there's a meaning
(00:49):
behind everything.
Tim Brown (00:50):
Yeah, and then I was saying that I think sometimes
people swing too far in thatdirection.
Potentially, I believe that Iam one of those people that
likes to make things meansomething, sometimes too much.
Or you'll talk to somebody wholiterally won't move their chair
(01:12):
if they don't pray about itfirst, or something like that.
And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, wow, that's a
lot of responsibility.
And you're saying if somethingwent wildly wrong and you'd held
, like for your wife got in acar accident and you'd held her
up for a few minutes, that if itwas supposed to happen that
(01:33):
might screw with your head.
So when negative things happen,or seemingly negative things,
that would be scary to thinkeverything was exactly how it's
supposed to be constantly.
I understand that, but I likesynchronicities, I like
serendipity and I think Ibelieve it's a good one.
I haven't been asked to be on apodcast about recovery in years.
(01:58):
And then you said, hey, let'sget on a podcast about recovery.
And it just happened that youcouldn't do it a week and a half
ago and then you rescheduled totoday with no awareness
whatsoever that this was also my15th sober anniversary.
So 15 years ago I was in apsych ward and believing in so
(02:25):
many synchronicities that I wasa little over on that idea.
But I was also on a lot ofpsychedelics.
So it wasn't just I was thisserendipity king over here.
I was also on a lot ofpsychedelics, but anyways, I
love having synchronicities andserendipities today.
Synchronicities andserendipities.
(02:49):
Today, I think my main thing isthat I want to be a child of
God and I want to live in rightrelation to the people around me
and hopefully live inaccordance with my own internal
principles as much as I possiblycan today, and that's a big
ideal, what I'm shooting forwith my recovery.
Corey Berrier (03:10):
So if you know for people that are let's say,
they're newly in recovery,listen to this.
If I get an internal let's callit discernment about a
situation or about a person,when I first got sober I felt is
this my will or is it thediscernment?
And still, sometimes, to thisday, I'll question whether it's,
(03:30):
because if it's something Ireally want to happen, then I
have to question like, how muchof is it me or how much of it is
alignment?
Tim Brown (03:39):
Yeah, and I think a lot of that, the lack of clarity
there that sometimes happens,is partly related to the alcohol
and drinking and, for me, druguse, stuff that I used to do
because I had ways to trickmyself into feeling good about
my decisions, even when theyweren't great decisions, and
some of them came from supposedinstincts.
(04:00):
Deep down Maybe we're likewhere does God live in my body?
The back of my head?
Somewhere in there he'stickling.
He's usually a small quietvoice, right, or it is small
quiet voice or however you wantto say it.
But I but deep down I had thisinstinct to to continue to get
(04:22):
dopamine, and part of that wasthrough the trick of all these
substances, and so I think youprobably have to spend a little
bit more time deciphering thansomebody who wasn't addicted to
things.
I think that confuses our wholebrain, chemicals and as I do
(04:46):
think, as time goes on, as beingin recovery, I think that
there's a more confidence atleast, or at least I feel a
little closer to, like myinternal compass seems
calibrated.
Yeah, but that's the thing islike.
Why people say you need to stayin recovery or part of a
community is because it doesn'tnecessarily just happen because
(05:07):
you're sober.
It happens because you'recreating deeper connections with
human beings and making aspiritual gravity force around.
What is your actual like northstar you know what I mean which
(05:30):
is on my.
It's a mixture like conscienceand then also like outside
people that that love me,actually telling me, yeah,
you're doing the right things.
Like that's one.
One of the ways I know is likethe help from other people that
actually have my best interestsin mind and I got around a lot
more people like that, not tosay the people, yeah, a lot more
people like that in recoveryand I still love a lot of the
(05:53):
people I used to hang out withand some of them are dead.
But that tends to happen as well.
If you're really partyingpretty hard, some of them don't
survive.
You mentioned psychedelics.
Corey Berrier (06:03):
That's certainly partying pretty hard.
Some of them don't survive.
You mentioned psychedelics.
That's certainly part of mystory, even after I stopped
drinking.
Now, to be clear, microdosing Idon't do anything a little bit,
so if I microdose, it was likeevery day, right, Every other
three days or whatever.
But I do believe there was alevel of consciousness that came
(06:28):
along with that, and I'll tellyou what.
When I really realized it was2020, when COVID happened, it
was clear as day what was goingon to me.
Like there was no.
I understood exactly what wasgoing on.
It was-boggling to me thateverybody didn't understand what
was going on, but then you gotto disassociate from everything
(06:50):
happening and watching peoplemigrate in herds to this
narrative that was happening andit was just mind.
It was mind-blowing to me.
Do you think that psychedelicscake brought you to a level of
consciousness that maybe youwouldn't have gotten to
(07:12):
otherwise?
Tim Brown (07:12):
yeah, that's kind of a funny.
Yeah, I used to really feelthat way, like very strongly,
and I was like I still don'tresent or I'm not mad at I did a
, a lot of mushrooms.
But I usually do like macrodoses, heroic doses maybe even
sometimes.
But I think for me, I don'tthink I was quite using them in
(07:33):
a spiritual way.
I'm not even saying thatthere's anything wrong with that
or I am very open.
I'm okay with everyone's takeon this stuff.
For me it's not me at thispoint, but I definitely thought
I had unlocked some things thatwere creative and maybe a little
(07:54):
spiritual.
Like I was.
I used them occasionally to gointo certain things.
Like I was really into josephCampbell, the hero with a
thousand faces, and hisbasically studying of legends
and oral traditions of thehero's journey, and I think
(08:18):
because I was trying to be anartist and musician and trying
to unearth truths about thehuman spirit and stuff like that
.
That's how I felt at the time.
Now, as time has gone on now I'm15 years sober and I haven't
done anything like that in along time I think I let the like
(08:41):
idea that psychedelics unlock aton of things kind of fade for
me, and I'm not even saying thatit's wrong, I'm saying that I
didn't feel like that was.
I think sometimes it might beeven like it could be a cheat
code.
It could be a cheat code.
And then for me now is weirder,deeper ways to tease out some
(09:04):
of those insights.
Like I went on a three-daymeditation retreat, I've swam
with sharks and scuba dived.
You learn to control yourbreath and you learn to not
panic.
And I've hung out with great,incredible home service
contractors that taught me aboutthe way that there's a lot of
(09:24):
stress as you're doing thatright, because you're building a
business.
That taught me the ways thatthey found to satisfaction in
life that wasn't related to justmoney anymore, that they, they
like, had gone beyond where theyneeded anything else through
stoicism and other ways like sothe beauty and adventure that I
(09:46):
find.
Now to me it feels more rootedand a little like more
controlled in a way that feelscorrect and wholesome for me now
, but I'm not gonna say I didn't.
I don't look back on all thepsychedelic stuff or, you know,
even any of the substancesreally in any way that negates
(10:08):
anything I learned or thought Ilearned at the time the creative
impulses that I exercised andstrengthened during those times.
I don't look at it like I wantto separate my life completely
away from all that.
I think of it as a continuationof the search for adventure and
(10:29):
I take a lot of adventures nowand part of that has been making
a business and trying to dosomething really rewarding that
way.
But then also it's likelearning how to take back my
personal life and do things Iactually like and care about.
As time goes on, I takeThursdays off, I take an hour
(10:50):
every single day during theworkday and I meditate and I
read and journal and I'm tryingto live life now with a little
bit more consciousness, not justworkaholism and neuroticism
which I needed for the first 10years of my business, not just
workaholism and neuroticismwhich I needed for the first 10
years of my business, which Ineeded to have obsessive effort
(11:12):
application.
But yeah, I think of it as acontinuation and now I just I
want to see more adventure.
I'm trying to find moreadventure and I think it took a
while to be doing as crazy ofstuff that I was doing back then
and doing even crazier stuffnow.
That's fun.
I want to live when I tell mykids these stories that they'll
(11:34):
be like what it's wild.
And you did that sober.
That's so cool.
Oh yeah, by the way, you shoulddo it too.
You should go climb mountainsand scuba dive, and go to see
gurus and mountains and dosilent retreats for three days,
and whatever else.
Corey Berrier (11:51):
I think that was in my neck of the woods, right
Wasn't in North Carolina.
You did yes.
Tim Brown (11:55):
North Carolina.
By the way, that was a greatexperience.
The art of living retreat upthere is a great spot, both for
a more like just a wellnessretreat.
You can go up there and just doacupuncture and clay and stuff,
and then you can also do thoselike more intense, like silent
retreats and stuff.
Corey Berrier (12:14):
So it's a pretty cool spot what was your biggest
takeaway from that silentretreat?
Tim Brown (12:18):
who, I think, just letting go, I think, hit me like
a ton of bricks, just theinsignificance.
You're sitting there Excuse me,I was sitting there day and a
half in.
The interesting thing was wedidn't know if this guy was
going to come.
This Guru, sri Sri Ravi Shankar, never had heard of him before
in my life.
(12:40):
I think there's another guynamed Ravi Shankar that plays an
instrument, but not that guy.
He's taught a lot of people howto meditate and he's been
involved with de-escalation ofviolent conflicts.
The meditation stuff has goneto prisons and young people.
(13:02):
Basically, his meditation styleis now it's called sky breath
and it's everywhere and hebelieves that anxiety is like
the fundamental component thatleads to like war and conflict
and so he believes that likeit's really important to do
breath work as it allows us todeal with that issue and others
(13:31):
deal with that issue and othersand just some that day, after
being silent for a day and ahalf, and it's just all these
people coming up to him and he'slike almost like a god to them,
right, and I'm like oh, wow,like this, and like people
crying and everyone likecrowding around him and I was
just like struck with like theinverse of ego, right like
insignificance.
I was embarrassed at how littlemy life has come to in a way,
(13:58):
even though I got this businessand I want to help the trades
like become elevated and allthat, all the junk.
I always say, right like I.
I just felt very insignificantand I went out in the woods and
I fucking cried like I gotpunched in the gut as hard as
you could.
I remember sitting on this logand covered in moss and I'm just
(14:20):
like weeping and somebodypasses by, another person set
the meditation or whatever Ilike hide in my face and I'm
just ugly crying, right, and Idon't think I had an epiphany in
that moment.
I think I just got the shitkicked out of me.
But hey, you gotta think bigger.
There's people out herechanging the world for real with
(14:44):
simple things like mindsetshifts and meditation and as
well.
You got to let go, cause I wasin the middle of three days no
phone, by the way, no phone.
No like complete silence, notalking.
I couldn't say anything andthat that letting go it.
(15:04):
Basically it was like obviousto me.
I had to let go of all thesethoughts because they were
crushing me.
Corey Berrier (15:11):
I just had to let go, which is almost impossible
for people like us.
Tim Brown (15:15):
Yeah, two times.
Yeah, and I even remember tryingto come up with to-dos.
It's so crazy when you get inthis mad rush of living, I'm
like, what are the to-dos?
Okay, I'm going to do no phoneevery night with my family.
Like am I coming up with all myto-dos to lock this experience
in man?
And I think really, though,like what I think about, like
(15:39):
with my reflection on it, isjust like letting go, and
letting like life's going to.
It's kind of like life's gonnahappen to you no matter what,
yeah, and you flailing is notgonna fix that.
And this last year it's justbeen like, even after this and
that other trip where I like hadlearned scuba diving and not
(16:03):
freaking out when I saw a sharkin my face was like don't
struggle, don't struggle did youdo that with somebody?
Corey Berrier (16:12):
yeah, I did that with eric ober.
I knew it.
I knew it.
Tim Brown (16:15):
That's exactly why I asked?
because he's the only dude, Ican imagine that you could have
done this with yeah, and I hadtwo other people, ty Cobb Backer
from TC Backer Construction andJoe Hoffman from Hoffman Weber,
and both they have a $50million plus empire.
They're both really smart andso in between I literally went
(16:35):
because those two guys weregoing and I'm sitting there
taking notes on all the thingsthat they have to say because I
look up to them deeply, sothat's why I take the hour off
every day.
Now that was TC Ty Backer'stake.
And then Joe Hoffman told me todo this workshop with my wife
(16:58):
about what is our enough numberdollar amount, get it very clear
.
No for sure.
And when I did that math, Ilike what we need to live.
We actually get more than whatour enough is, and I don't even
need to make any more money atall to be happy, like.
Basically, he's like we'reobsessed with more right and
it's this entrepreneur's curse,but anyways, that was a whole
(17:19):
another scenario, but the wholething, the takeaway for me, was
like stop struggling.
And that's a funny way to sayit, because it's like when
somebody throws out something tosave you, right, they throw out
a life rafter, a life preserver, one of those circle things you
just have to grab on and don'tyou struggle in the water and
(17:42):
you drown, both of you, I don'tknow, for some reason.
That just came to me this lastyear.
Don't struggle and I feel likeI'm.
It's kind of a weird thing tosay 15 years sober.
I'm not currently going tochurch or anything like that,
but I do think there's a certainamount of I am being saved For
(18:02):
real being saved, because allthe momentum that we've created
now other people are helping memore than I'm helping myself and
that's the role maybe yeah, nowit's team.
right, there's an actual team onmy side helping me and I don't
just gotta stop self-sabotaging,which I think that the hardest
(18:26):
part when you're in recovery isto not hurt yourself in other
ways.
People get addicted to thatpattern of self-sabotage and
then ups and downs.
Man, I've just been talking alot, I apologize.
Corey Berrier (18:43):
No, you're good.
I say all the things we mightas well.
Tim Brown (18:46):
I would like to just really quick tell everybody
about what you do, and thenwe'll dive right back into this
sure, yeah, google marketing forhome service contractors, seo,
ppc websites, google ads andgoogle maps and lsa anything to
do with Google and getting leadsand we work with a lot of
roofing contractors.
(19:07):
We have 100 plus and now wehave around 20 HVAC contractors.
So I think the first time wedid this podcast, I may be at
three.
We've since gotten a lot of newHVAC contractors and I think
plumbing is next and I think wehave five plumbers.
But in the next couple of yearswe'll be pushing harder into
that.
But really just trying to getthe whole team up on these
(19:29):
things and know about theindustry, because that's
certainly where an agency startsto be a lot better is when they
know about the industry andwhen everyone is not, they're
not trying to get the basicsevery single time they talk to
you, they're trying to get allright.
Yeah, you've seen that before.
How are you different?
Knowing what's not special inthe industry and knowing what is
(19:50):
, and like trying to layer, pushinto what's special for people.
I think that's a huge piece ofwhat we do and it's a 30 person
team here in minneapolis andin-house everything and it's a
little different than someplaces on the small side and
then, compared to biggeragencies, we're just higher
(20:12):
employee-to-customer ratio.
We usually have less customersper employee than a lot of
companies, so we're a littlehigher, more like higher-touch
boutique style.
Corey Berrier (20:23):
How do you overcome the?
If you ask in any of thesegroups who's the best marketer,
it's just a shit show.
Tim Brown (20:31):
Yeah, interesting, because one, you still need
marketing and most people aren'tgoing to build it in house.
So sometimes it's just yeah, Iknow you hate us, but you need
us, you need us.
I wish it was a little bit morefeel good than that.
You need us, you need us.
I wish it was a little bit morefeel good than that.
I don't overcome it.
I think most of the people thatcome to us like, by the time
they come to us, because wedon't like cold outreach people
(20:52):
or anything like that.
People come to us and they say,hey, I want what you have and
we built our attractionmarketing right out and that's
what we help people Thank you somuch.
And it's more fun than likeknocking down other people's
doors because you don't positionyourself as the prize as much.
In that case and I believethat's the ideal way to do it is
(21:13):
get people to come to you andthen position yourselves as the
prize and sure, yeah, I'll helpyou.
So when people come in, I thinka lot of them come to us
already knowing like they canalready feel and sense the
difference than the lower endEveryone's in their DMs or the
(21:34):
agencies that have no specialtyor have no niche, but there's
still always something there andI think there's always like a
mistrust, and I think there'salways a mistrust.
(22:07):
I know you guys, as contractors, have to experience the
mistrust from homeowners thatare scared that you're going to
take their money and not do.
They say that they're going todo that, believe in the golden
rule that treat other peoplelike they should be treated,
that care about getting them theright thing for their situation
, and then those peoplegenerally believe that's what
we're doing, which is what we'retrying to do.
Right, it was just we're tryingto live, trying to do the stuff
that they actually need notsell them shit they don't need
(22:27):
or trying to help them growtheir businesses.
So it's just.
I think it's just more and morewe're trying to get around
people that act like that andthus trust people like that.
You know, I mean I'm not veryhard to.
If you try to sell me something, I'm not that hard to.
I trust people like I trustpeople a lot that are trying to
sell me stuff, because I thinkthat makes a better sales force.
(22:49):
I think I'm not always secondguessing.
Everyone, yes, does that everyonce in a while.
Screw me over.
Does that every once in a while, leave me with some piece of
exercise equipment that doesn'tdo what it says it's going to do
, or whatever, sure, yeah?
Or a cologne that smells likedog shit on a boot.
Yeah, every once in a while, Iclick an Instagram ad and get
(23:13):
some stuff.
That wasn't great, but I think,overall, I try to live and try
to sell things in a way that'saccurately accurate and try to
work with companies that do thattoo.
I know you guys, in the H-Jackworld there's a little bit more
of hey, we're selling themoptions, and let's not worry so
(23:38):
much about whether I know that.
There's all kinds of differentpeople, but I think I I don't
know, talk to me.
Let's go into that for a second, because you've seen the hvac
world and the roofing world.
Do you ever think like though?
I know the roofing world hasits own problems with, like,
manual damage and some otherweird things that sometimes
(24:00):
happen but do you think that thehvac world is a little sneakier
sometimes?
Corey Berrier (24:06):
yeah, so I think, yeah, I can clarify that you've
got.
You got roofers that'll tearyour house up.
If so, I'll say some roofersthat will rip shingles off or
whatever, and that's unethical.
And then you've got some hvacguys that will say sell them
everything.
And maybe what their intentionis, you know sell them, give
(24:32):
them options to do nothing, fixthe problem or sell them a new
system.
But then I think sometimesthat's misinterpreted and
sometimes intentionally from theowner.
Intentionally he wants you tosell everything.
The owner Intentionally hewants you to sell everything
(24:53):
regardless.
And then sometimes I thinkyou've got people that will,
because they're getting paid todo this.
Now I'm not shitting onperformance pay, all right,
let's be clear.
I think that's vitallyimportant to the success of a
business when I say performancepay, meaning you get a SPF or a
percentage of what you sell, butI also think that percentage
(25:13):
should be equal.
I may get killed for sayingthis, but I don't think it
should be 12 or 15% on a repairand 2% on a new system, because
then you're leveraging morerepairs than you are, unless
that's the business model, right.
So it's not okay to repair a$6,000 repair when in a month or
(25:39):
two months or six monthsthere's going to be another
$2,000 repair and you're goingto capitalize on that also, yeah
.
And so that's where thesneakiness could come in, with
either the technician selling,technician, comfort advisor, and
or could be the owner passingthat down.
Tim Brown (25:57):
I've seen all of those things have you been out
on like job sites or what isyour level of depth on the
roofing industry and its vibes?
Corey Berrier (26:10):
ask me the question and, yeah, I'll see if
I can have you seen any?
Tim Brown (26:13):
do you are you aware of the level of occasional lack
of integrity in the roofingindustry and are you?
I'm wondering if you couldcompare the levels for me, if
you know, if you have thatinformation, but I don't.
Corey Berrier (26:28):
Probably worse in the roofing industry, and I'll
only say that because mostroofers are not actually roofers
, they're glorified salespeople.
Nothing wrong with that.
And I realized this when I wentup to Hunter Ballou's Revolt
(26:49):
Roofcon oh yeah, revolt.
And I'm sitting around with 50other roofers and they're all
just salespeople.
They're not hanging shingles,they're not climbing on the
house, which is my idea of aroofer.
Now, some people do, but veryseldom do you hear of the roofer
being the actual guy getting onthe house and he may be looking
(27:11):
at the shingles but he's notinstalling anything.
He's got a team that does that.
He's just selling the roof,whereas HVAC, if you've got
selling technicians, they canfix it or they can sell it,
which is usually a unicorn, notsuper common, not that they can
do both well.
So I think that the roofingindustry has it's a little bit
(27:34):
more renegade no, yeah, I think,and it's also.
Tim Brown (27:38):
I always think about indoor, outdoor, like indoor
cats versus outdoor.
But the thing is like hvac, Ithink I thought it.
I'm just gonna be real, realright now.
Somebody can hate me if theywant, but I think I thought it.
I'm just gonna be real, realright now.
Somebody can hate me if theywant, but I think I thought it
was a little bit more white,glove, soft, but then when I'm
out in the field I can feel likeit is often crunchy, sometimes
(28:02):
soft, but a lot of times likeit's the same kind of people,
it's just there's a certainpretense that gets dropped when
you can do the work.
You know what I mean.
Like when you, because, becausepeople that real techs, feels
like real techs that can getthis shit done, like sometimes
they seem a little crunchier incertain ways because they can,
they don't, they're not scaredfor their job.
(28:23):
I what are you gonna fire me?
I'm the one guy that knows howto do this, to work on these
systems for real.
You know what I mean.
There's a little bit more ofthat which would be reminiscent
of the actual shingle installersversus the salespeople, kind of
like you're saying, and sothere's a down-to-earth,
salt-to-the-earth vibe thatsometimes we don't see, because
(28:46):
a lot of the actual shingle, theshingle installers, are mexican
and they're not.
We're not always having when Igo out on the job I don't know
spanish so I'm not always havingthose conversations with them.
I do know some shingle, likeI'm friends with shingle
installers.
They just happen to be a littlefar fewer and farther between
for the industry.
(29:06):
That, as far as the white dudesbasically and I know, like I
know the ones that do have alittle bit more of that vibe too
, which is the more like hey,what are you gonna do?
Corey Berrier (29:18):
I can actually do the work, so try messing with
me and I'm gonna, and I'mactually going to do the work.
I'm actually going to carry 600pounds on my shoulders up the
ladder.
You can't do that because, yeah, these guys, those guys that
install, are like it's my, it'smind-blowing to me how they're
just like a machine, like Idon't understand how they work
(29:40):
so hard in the work, thoughthat's a little different.
Tim Brown (29:45):
Like with it sorry, I'm just like like dissecting
the industry a little bit butlike in hvac, the level of
technical information, likeknowledge required, is a lot
higher.
It feels, not to say there'snot valleys and intricacies on
roofs, but they're just not astechnical.
So it's a different, a littlebit different of a industry.
In that way, I would say I wassurprised a little bit by some
(30:11):
of the aggressive sales tacticsin hvac, and I'm not even anti,
that's the point.
It sounds like I might sayingthat out of the gate.
It might sound like I'm anti.
One, I'm taking notes.
I'm also learning this shit,thank you.
And then, two, there is placeswhere it's too much right.
There's like spots in the hvacindustry that are a little you
(30:34):
guys are better at it butthere's also places where it's a
little like maybe you're goingtoo far with some of that, from
what I can tell.
Corey Berrier (30:41):
Yeah, and that's just like my first couple years
impression here yeah, I agree,and some of the people I'm
certainly not going to dropnames and they're not all bad
and they're not all good, butthere's a lot of sales trainers
out there that they teach you topretty much not take no for an
(31:02):
answer and I don't really agreewith that.
I think that there's.
You can push a customer.
Let me just say, push might beaggressive.
(31:30):
You can leverage the knowledgeto get a customer to make a
decision, but you should do thatin a very tactful way and
really, if you've built rapportup until that point, you really
shouldn't have to push thatindividual into making a
decision because ultimately, thebox is the box.
They're all the same, right,they're all the same, the
installation's important, butthey're buying the person in the
home.
They're buying that individualand most of the time, people the
price doesn't matter as much ifthey really like you as an
(31:52):
individual.
Yeah, and some companies don'tknow how to overcome that and a
lot of that is they've got theirpeople, their technicians are
scheduled so tightly that theydon't have the time to build
that relationship.
And I get it Summertime is whenyou make all your money.
(32:13):
But you're also doing yourtechnicians and the customer a
disservice because you're notallowing them time to build that
relationship, whereas roofersdo have more of that time,
unless they're in a storm, andthat's a bit different scenario.
Tim Brown (32:32):
Yeah, once again, though they're not always doing
the work so they have all thatextra time when you say roofer,
yeah, they have all that extratime because they can hang out
with them Things I felt like Ilearned from this last few years
hanging with these badass HVACsales coaches that are pretty
crazy.
Really good is the optionsthing, making sure people have
(32:53):
options, maybe even thepresentation of those options,
and what is your take fromhighest to lowest, what is what
order do you recommend givingoptions?
The highest, start at thehighest.
Corey Berrier (33:10):
Is that what?
Tim Brown (33:11):
you're.
Is that what you mean?
Yeah, Start at the highest.
Is that what you're is?
Corey Berrier (33:12):
that what you mean?
Yeah, start at the highest.
Yeah, well, because therethere's a, there's some people
that are gonna want the veryhighest thing.
It's if you go buy a vehicle atwhatever dealership, you may
want every option on the vehiclejust because you want to have
the vehicle with all the options, but if you don't have that
option to buy that vehicle, youcan't buy it.
Most people are going to landin the middle, some are going to
(33:35):
land at the bottom, but a lotof times, if you do it the right
way, 90% of them are going toland in that middle option
because they don't want theshittiest system and they don't
want the Cadillac system.
So where do they land is in themiddle.
Tim Brown (33:53):
Something I didn't experience with roofing sales
coaches but I enjoyed with HVACis around even things like magic
moments, where you're callingthe customer by their name.
By the way, the more you usethe name, the higher the sales
likelihood goes up.
I did not know that.
Rilla taught me that.
The magic moments thing, JoeCorsera's thing, where it's like
(34:16):
hey, can I tell you something?
Hey, Corey, can I tell yousomething?
And then they say yes and youget permission, and then the
idea of I think it's really goodwhat you're doing for your home
, and I believe that this is theexact right thing, and I think
that getting this taken care ofbefore it turned into a giant
problem was wise of you as afather or as a mother or
whatever.
(34:36):
They didn't have that.
They didn't know about all this, they didn't know about using
humanity, but I think it's alsotreating people like humans.
You know what I mean.
I think it's also treatingpeople like humans.
You know what I mean.
I think it's smart and there'sa couple other things like that
where it was like I just feltlike when I came into HVAC, the
(34:57):
level of sales coaching was justup from roofing by a lot.
So I hope that roofers learn alot from as some of these
coaches and consultants comeover from the HVAC world into
roofing, cross-pollinating theprofessionalism and a little bit
more of the soft skills of thesales process.
(35:19):
I think roofing has beenspoiled by insurance and storm
work to the point where theydon't necessarily even need to
have a high touch sales mindset.
They're literally justprescribing the fix to a storm
damage problem and I think thatthese softer, high touch vibe
(35:42):
selling I don't know how to sayit.
Corey Berrier (35:44):
All right, so let's get back for a second to
you.
We said it's really greatyou're doing.
Second to what you said it'sreally great that you're doing,
can I ask you a question?
Is it really great?
It's really great You're doingthis for your family or little
Johnny, or whatever?
Yeah, I think that's fine, aslong as you truly mean that
statement.
Yeah, and I think I believethat it will come across
subconsciously.
I'll pick up on if you're justtelling me it's not authentic
(36:05):
Absolutely, consciously.
I'll pick up on if you're justtelling me it's not authentic
Absolutely, and I think that'swhere that part gets lost in
translation, because people thatdon't really mean it are saying
it and it's not working.
Tim Brown (36:18):
Yeah, and it's funny though, because that and things
like it, when we complimentsomebody, I think no matter what
, even if you knew it was atactic, it's hard for somebody
to hate that.
No, I'm not even saying it'sabsolutely right or anything,
(36:52):
but I do think that when you saypositive stuff to the homeowner
, when you make it a positivefeeling experience that like
touches on, like humanconnection.
I think that we could stand formore of that, even if you at
the risk of us disagreeing and Idon't think there's anything
wrong with it if we disagree butI think that it's better almost
every single time, even ifyou're contriving it a bit at
the beginning, if you can learn.
Like I said, I hope it's okayif we disagree on this, but I
(37:13):
think there's an element of ifyou can, on purpose, put more of
those types of things into thesales process, that you can
create brain chemicals for thathomeowner and almost even if
(37:34):
they know what you're trying todo and I think I, when I find
myself in a situation because Iuse these things in sales now
and get on a phone call with meand we'll test them out sometime
audience, but I truly do makesure I try to fully be there and
present and use presence toreally truly mean it.
(37:56):
I don't say it like it's a line.
I agree that you have to havefull emotion and feeling and
somebody could do one line inthe home of the exact same line,
but with the wrong inflectionand with no spirit of like
empathy and like actual presence, and that line will just flop,
(38:19):
flop and then on the other side,if you did that same line, same
exact words, but like withpacing, and you care about the
person and even though, yes,you've said this line before, I
actually am really proud of you,like that you're getting this
taken care of before it turnsinto a bigger mess and you have
(38:42):
conviction when you say it, thenit could definitely hit much
harder.
So I think that, like, thosethings still can be developed,
there can be a prescription forthose things which is like
pacing, body language, facialexpressions and emotion and
presence.
And you can I'm not, naturallythat I can figure out how to do
(39:05):
that with the person I'm sellingto and I actually can try to be
more present.
And I think I'm not a masterHVAC salesperson by any means,
I'm just more.
I like that there's a littlebit more intention in this
industry around things like that.
That's all.
That's what.
Corey Berrier (39:21):
I like about it Well, and I think you can
develop those empathetic,emotional mad.
I think you can develop thetalk track and the emotion, even
if you don't mean it at first,if you're trying, if you're
trying to get to that point, Ido believe you can rewire to the
point where, if you see it workor you test it and it works, I
(39:45):
think you can develop into theperson that really means that as
well.
Tim Brown (39:51):
Yeah, yeah and hey, this process of learning sales
is always so back and forth onthat thing where it's like
what's authentic?
And then it's this works.
And then you're like I want tomake sure that this is authentic
because I don't want to go offin a path that ends with me
being a piece of shit and thenit's I do know that like ends
with me being a piece of shit,and then it's I do know that
(40:12):
this works.
I know that certain things workand I'm trying not to use them.
You know, it's like like atthis point in my life I'm sure,
oh, I like the camera went wayover there, over here.
Yeah, where'd it go?
My robot got stuck over there.
Yeah, where'd it go?
(40:32):
My robot got stuck over there.
There's an element of I want tobe like I feel powerful, like
I'm sure you feel this way too.
Like with sales, like youthings that work and not all
those things are we learn someforbidden knowledge along the
way.
When you study sales, you'relike I've got a bunch of sales
books behind me.
I got the 10X rule, thechallenger, sale pitch, anything
(40:53):
.
I've got some of my favoritebooks.
You learn some things along theway that could be used for ill
or ill-gotten gain or whatever.
And it's such a weird thingbecause I do feel very
persuasive and I do know how tohelp people do what I want them
to do.
And I'm not saying that I'mlike the best salesperson ever,
(41:15):
but that is a weird part aboutbeing a salesperson.
Corey Berrier (41:18):
Yeah, but you're doing it because you know the
outcome is going to bebeneficial for them.
Yes, you're not doing itbecause you're trying to strip
them of $30,000 and they'regoing to get nothing.
Tim Brown (41:30):
Yes, and that is the trick.
Right, it has to be.
One of my other favorite booksThink or Grow.
Rich says essentially, it'shard to get wealthy unless you
have the mindset that everyexchange should be good for both
parties.
Every exchange should be goodfor both parties.
You have to make that promiseto yourself that you're only
(41:54):
going to do things becauseotherwise you'll self-sabotage
yourself.
Most people with a consciencewill end up not being as good as
they could have been becausethey feel like they maybe don't
deserve it.
With some exceptions, there'sactual people that are
psychopathic out there that canjust do things for their own
gain with no other consideration.
But most of us need that deeperpart of us on board with
(42:18):
success.
Most of us need it to be realand for us to make sure we're
actually helping people.
Otherwise you get demotivated.
Corey Berrier (42:28):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So I think so thatself-sabotage portion where I'm
going to do this thing for youand, yeah, I'm not going to ask
for what I really want, becausemaybe I don't deserve it when do
you think that comes from?
Tim Brown (42:46):
I like that too, and I think it just I'll come back
to that in one second I justwant to take 20 seconds and say
I think that this is reallyimportant when selling or
growing a business too, becauseif you have two thoughts you
have I want to sell a lot, but Ialso don't know if we can
handle it, the amount of workthen you're going to always be
subtly accidentally sellingagainst yourself, even if you
(43:08):
don't know to the people thatyou're selling to, and so you
have to get that really clear.
Can we handle more work?
Yes, and I want more work and Iwant a lot of it.
Right, like we have to get thatvery clear in our subconscious
so it's not pushing against us.
And I think where that relatesjust more generally to life is
like I need to get it clear thatI'm a good person and that I
(43:31):
deserve winning.
I need to clarify at my deepestlevel that I love myself,
because I don't want to be thekind of guy that's like subtly
because people do that all thetime right, you'll talk to even
somebody with a big ego and youcan tell that they don't really
like themselves deep down, kindof thing.
And I think that there's.
(43:52):
If you don't get that clear andlove yourself, you're going to
accidentally push other peopleto not love you too.
And that doesn't mean just, oh,I get myself a really nice car
and I do first class lifestylethings.
(44:12):
It's no.
How do you talk to yourselfwhen no one else is around?
Are you like I'm a piece ofshit?
Or do you say I reallyappreciate that you're trying,
like?
I think, like something I'vebeen working on and it relates
to all that stuff we talked atthe beginning around letting go
and creating a life that has alittle bit of room to live, not
(44:39):
just work, is how would I treata friend If I was a friend?
How would I treat him if I wasa friend?
How would I treat him?
and I think that question helpsme clarify all that, so I don't
self-sabotage as much and a lotof it has to do with rest and a
(45:01):
lot of it has to do with findingways to do stuff I like every
single week, and sometimes thattakes like negotiating a little
bit with my wife or telling herwhy it's important.
Hey, I need to go work out inthe mornings because I feel a
lot better when I do and I thinkit's the right thing for both
of us if I'm feeling good andwhich takes a second, but then
it's not as hard as you think.
(45:21):
Once they get why it's good foryou.
And yeah, I bet you a lot ofpeople when I first started
taking Thursdays out for likewhat the fuck?
But now they know because I'mmore calm and I'm more centered
when I'm at work.
Corey Berrier (45:36):
I think that's just knowing.
I think that self-discovery,knowing yourself or discovering
what's beneficial for you, andit doesn't mean it's not the
same for everybody.
In fact, most people it'sprobably very different.
(45:59):
So where do you think theself-sabotage or the I'm not
good enough comes from?
Because I think a lot of peoplein recovery certainly start
that way, because addictionstarts with some sort of pain
and it ends with some sort ofpain, meaning you start.
The addiction starts whetherit's food, whether it's whether
it's drugs or alcohol.
You're doing it to cover upsomething and then you it gets
away from you and now the painis that you've got to do this
(46:22):
thing that's destroying yourlife until you decide to put it
down.
Tim Brown (46:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think when I was early in my
20s and stuff like that, I thinkI related it back to my parents
and maybe even some religioustrauma, because I grew up in the
church and they had a lot ofthings that they're always
making you think you were wrongabout Just even basic sexual
(46:52):
urges as a teenager.
All that stuff that makes youthink, oh, I might be a bad guy.
However, I sense I don't reallyhave a lot of resentments
against those types of systemsor people at this point.
I think we're all doing ourabsolute best and I think, no
matter what, there's somesuffering, and I think part of
(47:19):
that is ego and the inverse ofego, self-hatred that there's no
matter what culture you grow upin in if I grew up in a super
eastern culture or, my case,western religion or whatever, so
I don't know.
I just think that those thingshappen to the best of us, so to
speak, and I've taken as muchresponsibility for it as I
(47:43):
possibly could.
Where did I?
Not in a self-flagellating way,but in like a what?
How could I take responsibility?
What did I do that could haveled to this?
Because that's the only way I'mgoing to get control, or that's
the only way that I'm going toget like some positive next step
to help with it.
(48:05):
And so, reflecting back on whatcaused that root thing before
alcohol because it wasabsolutely I was a depressed
teenager and all that andalcohol and weed helped to be
honest with you.
So, rather than ruminating onwhat because there's so many
(48:25):
ways to have resentments, somany things Angry father, weird
pastors, very weird pastors andteachers that didn't give a fuck
the military-industrial complexthey really did make school
about compliance because ofthere was a period that they
literally I don't know if youknow this, but there was like
(48:48):
they actually changed school toget more compliance because they
didn't need critical thinkersanymore, they needed people to
work in factories.
So there was literally a push tochange the whole curriculum and
we wonder why it didn't feelgreat.
It was literally just aboutcompliance.
(49:10):
So there's so many things thatcould be, but I just look at it
now and I think, being cognizantof that for my kids, trying to
be real about the limitations ofcurrent educational system and
whatnot, but for me it's likefitness, meditation, taking as
(49:32):
much responsibility as Ipossibly can, nutrition, so that
I don't do it again, but otherthan that, I don't think.
I do my best not to sit thereand constantly analyze the roots
.
I'm in therapy and stuff too.
I do all the things but I trynot to sit there and resent the
(49:54):
pieces of what might have beenthe first couple inclinations
towards substances.
Those things have long sincepassed the window of opportunity
to fix, and so I just focus onnow what I can like work on.
Corey Berrier (50:14):
Yeah, have you ever heard of a program called
ACA?
Tim Brown (50:21):
I think so what is it ?
Corey Berrier (50:23):
Adult Children of Alcoholics and Functional.
So here's what's interestingabout this.
So I'm working through some ofthese things right now and what
I've found is like when, if youdon't think that you're good
enough for this thing, thenthere's a level of approval
(50:44):
seeking that you're looking foror that I would be looking for,
and that stems from not gettingthat approval as a child.
That doesn't mean you go blameyour parents for this thing.
That's not the idea.
The idea is that you have theknowledge now to do different.
And it's really fascinatingbecause I, I, I told the story
(51:10):
for years.
I had a great childhood becausethat was just the story I told
myself and looking back and nowdigging into this, like it
really wasn't a great childhood,it just wasn't like for a lot
of reasons Like.
I didn't go through anymolestation or anything like
that, or I didn't get beat where.
(51:32):
It's just what you think.
A lot of people think of what Ithought of as a bad childhood,
right?
No, it's like the drunk underthe bridge, right?
Everybody that's an alcoholicis a drunk under a bridge.
Tim Brown (51:43):
That's just not true yeah, no, I think that's good.
It's.
Yes, my dad was angry and wehad issues with that when I was
growing up.
The one funny thing thathappened recently with my pops
is that a thing with him.
My mom passed away this pastyear and he's gone through his
own weird transformation.
I swear to God, he was wearinglike Tom Ford cologne or
(52:06):
something like what is this?
My dad used to only wear brute,but anyways, I was just.
I was trying to mirror, tomirror.
You know how in sales we mirrorthings as I, so I like took him
by the shoulders.
I looked him directly in theface, I shook him and I said I
am so proud of you and he.
I told him to do it back and hedid it.
(52:26):
But, like, I don't care if it'sinauthentic, I needed that.
I needed my dad to say that tomy face.
It's so funny.
Yeah, we, we had a hard timegetting that approval in any way
shape or form in my familygrowing up.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about and, yes, you
could look at it and if Iscrutinized it, I could say that
(52:48):
was not a great childhood, butI also.
It's like when you become aparent, are you a parent?
I raised a daughter for 10 years, but she wasn't mine yeah but
you know how it's, it's hard toyou judge, you're judgy and tell
that's you and that's.
Oh, I see why they like letthem be on their tablet or
(53:08):
something in public.
So I just try not to be too nowas a parent.
I'm like try not to be too nowas a parent.
I'm like, try not to be toojudgy, although I don't yell,
and I don't want to ever yell infront of my kid, cause that was
tough yeah.
Corey Berrier (53:21):
Yeah, because it's really like shame.
Like you felt shame because youwere being yelled at for
whatever the thing was, causeyou didn't know any different.
We interpret things the way weinterpret things and, as a kid,
you don't have very much contextas to why these things are
happening.
You just have to take your own,your own perception of why
(53:45):
they're happening, which is, I'm, bad.
Tim Brown (53:46):
that's why it's happening yeah, no, I agree 100.
It's good to look at that.
Corey Berrier (53:51):
Everyone's small yeah, while, yeah, it's deep, we
go through some of this in,I'll just say, in six and seven,
character defects.
We look at how those show up inour lives and they continue to
show up.
It's not like we get rid ofthem, but at least you're aware
once you get to that point inthe steps.
(54:13):
Yeah, I agree, aware once youget to that point in the steps.
Yeah, I agree.
So how much do you?
How much time do you spend with, do you?
I don't know, you have sponsees.
Tim Brown (54:26):
I guess I can say yeah I have one sponsee right
now and I kind of always am onthe lookout.
If I can help somebody, I tryto make like I'll do a couple
meetings with somebody and justmake sure that I could help them
.
I think sometimes if somebodyis committed to using certain
other things besides alcohol,I'll be like I might not be your
guy Because I was actually astoner too.
So I was a stoner and I neededto be done with that.
(54:49):
So that's why I'm probably notgoing to be the best sponsor for
somebody who's like californiasober or whatever.
But I, yeah, I sponsor somebodyright now.
I don't know, I've always beenthe best sponsor.
I don't have the greatest trackrecord of success with my
sponsor, if I'm really honest,but I've got a guy who's going,
(55:10):
who's like almost all the waythrough the steps right now, and
I'm really grateful because itmakes me feel like less of a bad
sponsor.
Yeah, it's really good, usuallygrab food with them before the
meeting and stuff like that.
I go to a meeting every week,usually Got one in Minneapolis
and one in Austin.
I'm usually a once-a-week guy.
(55:30):
When I was first in recovery Iwould go five times a week
sometimes.
Corey Berrier (55:37):
So yeah, the community side of it, I think
for me.
I usually go to three a week inperson.
Occasionally I'll do an extraone, virtually, it's just not
quite the same and then I dohost I shouldn't say host.
I provide the Zoom link, Ishould say for people
(55:57):
specifically, just like EricObramp does for roofers in
recovery.
I do the same thing onSaturdays for people in HVAC and
it's starting to pick up somesteam, which is really
interesting, because going to aregular meeting everybody's the
same, but when you're in anindustry-specific meeting
(56:19):
there's a level of openness thathappens there.
That's very different.
Does that make sense?
Tim Brown (56:28):
Yeah, no, I agree yeah.
Corey Berrier (56:30):
It's really interesting.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Tim Brown (56:34):
Because you have people with your context on your
business and like, hey, we'regoing through this.
Oh, hey, it's tough when I'm oncall I'm guessing I haven't
been to the HVAC one.
But knowing they are goingthrough some of the same
situations and work stressorsand still staying sober, I'm
guessing, is very encouraging.
Corey Berrier (56:54):
Yeah, yeah, it is , and it is interesting you
bring up the California soberthing.
So I started my time over acouple of years ago.
Because of that, I haven'tdrank in, so mine's August the
12th 2009.
I haven't drank since August12th 2009.
But for about six or sevenyears in that latter part, I did
smoke weed and I had to startover.
(57:16):
I had to start my time over,which was humiliating, obviously
, and very humbling, but if Ihadn't have done that, I
wouldn't be able to one, Iwouldn't have made the progress
that I've made, because I wouldhave still been stuck in the
denial that I didn't need tostart over.
(57:38):
And I'm not saying everybodyneeds to start over, but it's
really afforded me anopportunity to talk to people
that are California sober andshare my experience with putting
that down and becoming moresober, putting that down and
becoming more sober.
Tim Brown (57:57):
I think one of the reasons I don't do it like I'm
scared to sponsor somebodythat's like really into that or
doesn't want to let that go, isI just I'm scared for myself.
I don't want their mindsetaround that to confuse me, and I
do think there's a certainamount of you gotta take care of
yourself first, right?
We can't save everyone.
Sometimes it's just not theright person to do it for you.
(58:19):
I am trying to stay sober.
I'm trying to stay all the waysober.
And God, I don't know, I'm not.
It's crazy.
Where I was at a meeting lastnight and this guy was, I didn't
realize I was telling my storyabout being 15 years tomorrow,
yesterday, and then the guy getsto him and he goes.
I'm back after being sober for16 years and going out on my own
(58:41):
and I was like, oh shit, wedon't have guarantees, right?
So it's scary.
I just want to try to be safe.
I want to guard my mind againstme thinking I can because I'm,
I really could and I canconvince myself that I'm.
Oh, you know, weed's legal nowin minnesota or whatever.
(59:01):
Yeah, you, yeah for sure.
But I'm not saying I'm likethat's the right answer.
I'm saying that's for me,that's my answer, that's right
now.
That's where I'm at.
Corey Berrier (59:10):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Spiritually.
It disconnected me personally,yeah, and so that's where my
sobriety took a turn.
Is because I then relied onweed, just like I would anything
else opposed to God.
Tim Brown (59:29):
Yeah, it's already hard to remember God.
Imagine being stoned Right.
I forgot stoned Right.
I forgot to pray.
I forgot to pray this morning.
Imagine if I wake and make thatI wouldn't be praying for five
days.
I don't know.
It's true, yeah.
Corey Berrier (59:44):
Yeah, and it's slowly just strip everything
away, and it's so subtle.
It's not like you went and gotdrunk and wrecked your car Cause
then that's so subtle.
It's not like you went and gotdrunk and wrecked your car,
because then it's really clearthat you've made a mistake With
weed.
It's just a slow.
You just don't even realizeit's happening.
Tim Brown (01:00:02):
Yeah.
Corey Berrier (01:00:03):
Yeah, at least that was what happened with me.
So I know that we're gettingclose on time.
But what would you say ifsomebody's listening that maybe
they are struggling with drugsor alcohol?
What would you say has beenyour biggest benefit of being in
(01:00:25):
recovery?
Because there's a difference inbeing sober and being in
recovery.
You can just not drink and befucking miserable, or you can be
in recovery and be happy yeah,I think.
Tim Brown (01:00:38):
Obviously it happens different for every single
person, but for me, having morealignment between what I say I
want to do and what I do, havingmore clarity around this is
real.
What I'm doing right now isreal.
Everything is real, even ifit's hard sometimes, and the
(01:01:06):
ability to take all the thingsthat were really difficult in my
drinking and drugging and evenpast that right.
Like all the other things I'vegone through and learn how to
learn from every single one ofthem.
It gets very strong.
Like all the other things I'vegone through and learn how to
learn from every single one ofthem, it gets very strong.
Like a lot of things are verystrong for me in my life because
of the ability to takeadversity and turn it into
something more hopeful, and alsofor me to feel better from
(01:01:31):
going through those things andthen taking the lessons,
actually taking the lessons andto use those lessons.
So it just trained into me anidea about life that I can get
better through adversity andit's trained into me out of
desperation that I have to beuseful to other people and I
have to continue to all the timebe looking for ways to be
(01:01:53):
useful to other people, and it'sa very positive thing.
It's a very clean thing, it's avery wholesome thing that I'm
always trying to do, and thosethings make life a lot more
meaningful, and I believe thatmeaningful, a meaningful life is
really more enjoyable to live.
Corey Berrier (01:02:12):
Also, I agree with everything you said, but
also I think and I bet you'llagree with this we have a
framework that allows us torecognize.
I'll give you a great example.
Let's just pretend that you saysomething shitty to your wife
(01:02:34):
and you know it's shitty afteryou say it.
The first thing likely you dois you make amends to her and
you correct it.
Tim Brown (01:02:43):
If I had to guess, yeah, I'm much more quick to
actually own up to my issues outof necessity, because I can't,
I don't want to live with thelike pain of the anxiety of not
doing something, versus back inthe day you could kind of like
etch a sketch that with a littlewhiskey or weed.
(01:03:07):
So now I've got a lot more likeskin in the game.
I'm not.
I'm risking my day to notapologize.
Corey Berrier (01:03:18):
Yeah, that's right, and I think I think
that's been one of the thingsthat's been really helpful for
me is to be able to recognizethat when I am wrong to, to make
that amends, and then am wrongto to make that amends.
And then also, I think one ofthe other benefits too is
genuinely giving withoutanything in return, because it's
(01:03:41):
not like we get paid as asponsor.
You don't get paid to do that,it's freely.
You're giving your time forfree and there's no other way.
In my opinion, it's hard tofeed without having that
framework and understanding thenatural benefits that come from
giving that time freely.
(01:04:03):
I don't know how else you wouldfigure out that process.
Does that make sense?
Tim Brown (01:04:10):
Yeah, no, exactly.
I think it's like recovery and12 steps they put encourage you
to do this right, like you'resupposed to go to, you're
supposed to help people andyou're supposed to like actually
give completely.
And I even buy my guy dinner alot.
Sometimes we switch off.
I probably buy it more often Idon't and it's just a reminder.
(01:04:32):
Constantly we're on borrowedtime, you owe it forward.
Like it's not even pay itforward, it's like you owe it
forward or you might lose it.
Use it or lose.
It is really the best way tothink about like recovery and
it's a consistent reminder andyou also do end up getting.
It's a very it's a positivereward loop cycle because you
immediately get a reminder of oh, that's what I'm in, I remember
(01:04:55):
that about early sobriety and Iappreciate that and like they
have so much more of a recentcontext on what it's like to
actually be active drinking andusing.
So it's like that recentcontext helps you like remember,
yeah, and it keeps you in aspot where you're more likely to
stay sober for that day andthat's a big deal.
(01:05:17):
And this experience, thesemeetings and these times with
people that are desperate andneed, they're an experience that
just gets baked into you overtime and more and more why it's
good for people.
I know more and more why it'sgood for people like me to stay
sober.
I'm not saying that I willnever go out, I'm just saying
(01:05:41):
today I'm very aware and I'mappreciative that this guy last
night that was his secondmeeting after being sober for 16
years and then going out for ayear I'm so grateful he came.
It was bold for him.
It was humbling for him to comeback after not having.
He didn't go for a long timebut that was really helpful for
(01:06:04):
me because I was 15 and he was16.
There's a lot of serendipitylike that at meetings, or it's
just a pattern.
Let's play down of serendipitylike that at meetings where, oh,
or it's just a pattern.
Let's play down thisserendipity and this might be a
pattern with us alcoholics.
We tend to forget.
Corey Berrier (01:06:22):
Yeah, built-in forgetter.
Yeah yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm reallyreally grateful for the program
being there and having the stepsand being able to give back.
I think it's made me a betterhuman being.
Oh yeah, for sure.
(01:06:43):
Tim, where can people find youif they'd like to talk to you
about recovery or purchase yourmarketing?
Tim Brown (01:06:51):
Sure, yeah, tim Hook on Facebook is a great way to
find me, tim Hook andhookagencycom to check out our
marketing services.
And thank you for Corey forhaving me on.
I don't think, like I said,it's been a long.
Even the ones where I've toldmy story, I didn't go more into
the like solution style stuff.
So it's really nice to be on apodcast and get to talk about
(01:07:13):
this and go deep on it.
So thank you for letting me dothat.
Corey Berrier (01:07:17):
Yeah, you're welcome.
I appreciate you doing it, myfriend.
I'll talk to you soon.
Yes, sir, thanks, you got it.
Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast.
I'm your host, Corey Berrier,and I'm here with my man, Tim
Brown.
What's up, brother?
What's up?
Thanks for having me on again,brother.
I know a lot of folks inrecovery.
(00:22):
Anyway don't necessarilybelieve in coincidences or that
we tie this interesting meaningto things that I don't know.
It feels let me think about howto say this.
This is going to soundridiculous, but it's almost like
I can buy into the spiritualityside of it if there's a meaning
(00:49):
behind everything.
Tim Brown (00:50):
Yeah, and then I was saying that I think sometimes
people swing too far in thatdirection.
Potentially, I believe that Iam one of those people that
likes to make things meansomething, sometimes too much.
Or you'll talk to somebody wholiterally won't move their chair
(01:12):
if they don't pray about itfirst, or something like that.
And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, wow, that's a
lot of responsibility.
And you're saying if somethingwent wildly wrong and you'd held
, like for your wife got in acar accident and you'd held her
up for a few minutes, that if itwas supposed to happen that
(01:33):
might screw with your head.
So when negative things happen,or seemingly negative things,
that would be scary to thinkeverything was exactly how it's
supposed to be constantly.
I understand that, but I likesynchronicities, I like
serendipity and I think Ibelieve it's a good one.
I haven't been asked to be on apodcast about recovery in years.
(01:58):
And then you said, hey, let'sget on a podcast about recovery.
And it just happened that youcouldn't do it a week and a half
ago and then you rescheduled totoday with no awareness
whatsoever that this was also my15th sober anniversary.
So 15 years ago I was in apsych ward and believing in so
(02:25):
many synchronicities that I wasa little over on that idea.
But I was also on a lot ofpsychedelics.
So it wasn't just I was thisserendipity king over here.
I was also on a lot ofpsychedelics, but anyways, I
love having synchronicities andserendipities today.
Synchronicities andserendipities.
(02:49):
Today, I think my main thing isthat I want to be a child of
God and I want to live in rightrelation to the people around me
and hopefully live inaccordance with my own internal
principles as much as I possiblycan today, and that's a big
ideal, what I'm shooting forwith my recovery.
Corey Berrier (03:10):
So if you know for people that are let's say,
they're newly in recovery,listen to this.
If I get an internal let's callit discernment about a
situation or about a person,when I first got sober I felt is
this my will or is it thediscernment?
And still, sometimes, to thisday, I'll question whether it's,
(03:30):
because if it's something Ireally want to happen, then I
have to question like, how muchof is it me or how much of it is
alignment?
Tim Brown (03:39):
Yeah, and I think a lot of that, the lack of clarity
there that sometimes happens,is partly related to the alcohol
and drinking and, for me, druguse, stuff that I used to do
because I had ways to trickmyself into feeling good about
my decisions, even when theyweren't great decisions, and
some of them came from supposedinstincts.
(04:00):
Deep down Maybe we're likewhere does God live in my body?
The back of my head?
Somewhere in there he'stickling.
He's usually a small quietvoice, right, or it is small
quiet voice or however you wantto say it.
But I but deep down I had thisinstinct to to continue to get
(04:22):
dopamine, and part of that wasthrough the trick of all these
substances, and so I think youprobably have to spend a little
bit more time deciphering thansomebody who wasn't addicted to
things.
I think that confuses our wholebrain, chemicals and as I do
(04:46):
think, as time goes on, as beingin recovery, I think that
there's a more confidence atleast, or at least I feel a
little closer to, like myinternal compass seems
calibrated.
Yeah, but that's the thing islike.
Why people say you need to stayin recovery or part of a
community is because it doesn'tnecessarily just happen because
(05:07):
you're sober.
It happens because you'recreating deeper connections with
human beings and making aspiritual gravity force around.
What is your actual like northstar you know what I mean which
(05:30):
is on my.
It's a mixture like conscienceand then also like outside
people that that love me,actually telling me, yeah,
you're doing the right things.
Like that's one.
One of the ways I know is likethe help from other people that
actually have my best interestsin mind and I got around a lot
more people like that, not tosay the people, yeah, a lot more
people like that in recoveryand I still love a lot of the
(05:53):
people I used to hang out withand some of them are dead.
But that tends to happen as well.
If you're really partyingpretty hard, some of them don't
survive.
You mentioned psychedelics.
Corey Berrier (06:03):
That's certainly partying pretty hard.
Some of them don't survive.
You mentioned psychedelics.
That's certainly part of mystory, even after I stopped
drinking.
Now, to be clear, microdosing Idon't do anything a little bit,
so if I microdose, it was likeevery day, right, Every other
three days or whatever.
But I do believe there was alevel of consciousness that came
(06:28):
along with that, and I'll tellyou what.
When I really realized it was2020, when COVID happened, it
was clear as day what was goingon to me.
Like there was no.
I understood exactly what wasgoing on.
It was-boggling to me thateverybody didn't understand what
was going on, but then you gotto disassociate from everything
(06:50):
happening and watching peoplemigrate in herds to this
narrative that was happening andit was just mind.
It was mind-blowing to me.
Do you think that psychedelicscake brought you to a level of
consciousness that maybe youwouldn't have gotten to
(07:12):
otherwise?
Tim Brown (07:12):
yeah, that's kind of a funny.
Yeah, I used to really feelthat way, like very strongly,
and I was like I still don'tresent or I'm not mad at I did a
, a lot of mushrooms.
But I usually do like macrodoses, heroic doses maybe even
sometimes.
But I think for me, I don'tthink I was quite using them in
(07:33):
a spiritual way.
I'm not even saying thatthere's anything wrong with that
or I am very open.
I'm okay with everyone's takeon this stuff.
For me it's not me at thispoint, but I definitely thought
I had unlocked some things thatwere creative and maybe a little
(07:54):
spiritual.
Like I was.
I used them occasionally to gointo certain things.
Like I was really into josephCampbell, the hero with a
thousand faces, and hisbasically studying of legends
and oral traditions of thehero's journey, and I think
(08:18):
because I was trying to be anartist and musician and trying
to unearth truths about thehuman spirit and stuff like that
.
That's how I felt at the time.
Now, as time has gone on now I'm15 years sober and I haven't
done anything like that in along time I think I let the like
(08:41):
idea that psychedelics unlock aton of things kind of fade for
me, and I'm not even saying thatit's wrong, I'm saying that I
didn't feel like that was.
I think sometimes it might beeven like it could be a cheat
code.
It could be a cheat code.
And then for me now is weirder,deeper ways to tease out some
(09:04):
of those insights.
Like I went on a three-daymeditation retreat, I've swam
with sharks and scuba dived.
You learn to control yourbreath and you learn to not
panic.
And I've hung out with great,incredible home service
contractors that taught me aboutthe way that there's a lot of
(09:24):
stress as you're doing thatright, because you're building a
business.
That taught me the ways thatthey found to satisfaction in
life that wasn't related to justmoney anymore, that they, they
like, had gone beyond where theyneeded anything else through
stoicism and other ways like sothe beauty and adventure that I
(09:46):
find.
Now to me it feels more rootedand a little like more
controlled in a way that feelscorrect and wholesome for me now
, but I'm not gonna say I didn't.
I don't look back on all thepsychedelic stuff or, you know,
even any of the substancesreally in any way that negates
(10:08):
anything I learned or thought Ilearned at the time the creative
impulses that I exercised andstrengthened during those times.
I don't look at it like I wantto separate my life completely
away from all that.
I think of it as a continuationof the search for adventure and
(10:29):
I take a lot of adventures nowand part of that has been making
a business and trying to dosomething really rewarding that
way.
But then also it's likelearning how to take back my
personal life and do things Iactually like and care about.
As time goes on, I takeThursdays off, I take an hour
(10:50):
every single day during theworkday and I meditate and I
read and journal and I'm tryingto live life now with a little
bit more consciousness, not justworkaholism and neuroticism
which I needed for the first 10years of my business, not just
workaholism and neuroticismwhich I needed for the first 10
years of my business, which Ineeded to have obsessive effort
(11:12):
application.
But yeah, I think of it as acontinuation and now I just I
want to see more adventure.
I'm trying to find moreadventure and I think it took a
while to be doing as crazy ofstuff that I was doing back then
and doing even crazier stuffnow.
That's fun.
I want to live when I tell mykids these stories that they'll
(11:34):
be like what it's wild.
And you did that sober.
That's so cool.
Oh yeah, by the way, you shoulddo it too.
You should go climb mountainsand scuba dive, and go to see
gurus and mountains and dosilent retreats for three days,
and whatever else.
Corey Berrier (11:51):
I think that was in my neck of the woods, right
Wasn't in North Carolina.
You did yes.
Tim Brown (11:55):
North Carolina.
By the way, that was a greatexperience.
The art of living retreat upthere is a great spot, both for
a more like just a wellnessretreat.
You can go up there and just doacupuncture and clay and stuff,
and then you can also do thoselike more intense, like silent
retreats and stuff.
Corey Berrier (12:14):
So it's a pretty cool spot what was your biggest
takeaway from that silentretreat?
Tim Brown (12:18):
who, I think, just letting go, I think, hit me like
a ton of bricks, just theinsignificance.
You're sitting there Excuse me,I was sitting there day and a
half in.
The interesting thing was wedidn't know if this guy was
going to come.
This Guru, sri Sri Ravi Shankar, never had heard of him before
in my life.
(12:40):
I think there's another guynamed Ravi Shankar that plays an
instrument, but not that guy.
He's taught a lot of people howto meditate and he's been
involved with de-escalation ofviolent conflicts.
The meditation stuff has goneto prisons and young people.
(13:02):
Basically, his meditation styleis now it's called sky breath
and it's everywhere and hebelieves that anxiety is like
the fundamental component thatleads to like war and conflict
and so he believes that likeit's really important to do
breath work as it allows us todeal with that issue and others
(13:31):
deal with that issue and othersand just some that day, after
being silent for a day and ahalf, and it's just all these
people coming up to him and he'slike almost like a god to them,
right, and I'm like oh, wow,like this, and like people
crying and everyone likecrowding around him and I was
just like struck with like theinverse of ego, right like
insignificance.
I was embarrassed at how littlemy life has come to in a way,
(13:58):
even though I got this businessand I want to help the trades
like become elevated and allthat, all the junk.
I always say, right like I.
I just felt very insignificantand I went out in the woods and
I fucking cried like I gotpunched in the gut as hard as
you could.
I remember sitting on this logand covered in moss and I'm just
(14:20):
like weeping and somebodypasses by, another person set
the meditation or whatever Ilike hide in my face and I'm
just ugly crying, right, and Idon't think I had an epiphany in
that moment.
I think I just got the shitkicked out of me.
But hey, you gotta think bigger.
There's people out herechanging the world for real with
(14:44):
simple things like mindsetshifts and meditation and as
well.
You got to let go, cause I wasin the middle of three days no
phone, by the way, no phone.
No like complete silence, notalking.
I couldn't say anything andthat that letting go it.
(15:04):
Basically it was like obviousto me.
I had to let go of all thesethoughts because they were
crushing me.
Corey Berrier (15:11):
I just had to let go, which is almost impossible
for people like us.
Tim Brown (15:15):
Yeah, two times.
Yeah, and I even remember tryingto come up with to-dos.
It's so crazy when you get inthis mad rush of living, I'm
like, what are the to-dos?
Okay, I'm going to do no phoneevery night with my family.
Like am I coming up with all myto-dos to lock this experience
in man?
And I think really, though,like what I think about, like
(15:39):
with my reflection on it, isjust like letting go, and
letting like life's going to.
It's kind of like life's gonnahappen to you no matter what,
yeah, and you flailing is notgonna fix that.
And this last year it's justbeen like, even after this and
that other trip where I like hadlearned scuba diving and not
(16:03):
freaking out when I saw a sharkin my face was like don't
struggle, don't struggle did youdo that with somebody?
Corey Berrier (16:12):
yeah, I did that with eric ober.
I knew it.
I knew it.
Tim Brown (16:15):
That's exactly why I asked?
because he's the only dude, Ican imagine that you could have
done this with yeah, and I hadtwo other people, ty Cobb Backer
from TC Backer Construction andJoe Hoffman from Hoffman Weber,
and both they have a $50million plus empire.
They're both really smart andso in between I literally went
(16:35):
because those two guys weregoing and I'm sitting there
taking notes on all the thingsthat they have to say because I
look up to them deeply, sothat's why I take the hour off
every day.
Now that was TC Ty Backer'stake.
And then Joe Hoffman told me todo this workshop with my wife
(16:58):
about what is our enough numberdollar amount, get it very clear
.
No for sure.
And when I did that math, Ilike what we need to live.
We actually get more than whatour enough is, and I don't even
need to make any more money atall to be happy, like.
Basically, he's like we'reobsessed with more right and
it's this entrepreneur's curse,but anyways, that was a whole
(17:19):
another scenario, but the wholething, the takeaway for me, was
like stop struggling.
And that's a funny way to sayit, because it's like when
somebody throws out something tosave you, right, they throw out
a life rafter, a life preserver, one of those circle things you
just have to grab on and don'tyou struggle in the water and
(17:42):
you drown, both of you, I don'tknow, for some reason.
That just came to me this lastyear.
Don't struggle and I feel likeI'm.
It's kind of a weird thing tosay 15 years sober.
I'm not currently going tochurch or anything like that,
but I do think there's a certainamount of I am being saved For
(18:02):
real being saved, because allthe momentum that we've created
now other people are helping memore than I'm helping myself and
that's the role maybe yeah, nowit's team.
right, there's an actual team onmy side helping me and I don't
just gotta stop self-sabotaging,which I think that the hardest
(18:26):
part when you're in recovery isto not hurt yourself in other
ways.
People get addicted to thatpattern of self-sabotage and
then ups and downs.
Man, I've just been talking alot, I apologize.
Corey Berrier (18:43):
No, you're good.
I say all the things we mightas well.
Tim Brown (18:46):
I would like to just really quick tell everybody
about what you do, and thenwe'll dive right back into this
sure, yeah, google marketing forhome service contractors, seo,
ppc websites, google ads andgoogle maps and lsa anything to
do with Google and getting leadsand we work with a lot of
roofing contractors.
(19:07):
We have 100 plus and now wehave around 20 HVAC contractors.
So I think the first time wedid this podcast, I may be at
three.
We've since gotten a lot of newHVAC contractors and I think
plumbing is next and I think wehave five plumbers.
But in the next couple of yearswe'll be pushing harder into
that.
But really just trying to getthe whole team up on these
(19:29):
things and know about theindustry, because that's
certainly where an agency startsto be a lot better is when they
know about the industry andwhen everyone is not, they're
not trying to get the basicsevery single time they talk to
you, they're trying to get allright.
Yeah, you've seen that before.
How are you different?
Knowing what's not special inthe industry and knowing what is
(19:50):
, and like trying to layer, pushinto what's special for people.
I think that's a huge piece ofwhat we do and it's a 30 person
team here in minneapolis andin-house everything and it's a
little different than someplaces on the small side and
then, compared to biggeragencies, we're just higher
(20:12):
employee-to-customer ratio.
We usually have less customersper employee than a lot of
companies, so we're a littlehigher, more like higher-touch
boutique style.
Corey Berrier (20:23):
How do you overcome the?
If you ask in any of thesegroups who's the best marketer,
it's just a shit show.
Tim Brown (20:31):
Yeah, interesting, because one, you still need
marketing and most people aren'tgoing to build it in house.
So sometimes it's just yeah, Iknow you hate us, but you need
us, you need us.
I wish it was a little bit morefeel good than that.
You need us, you need us.
I wish it was a little bit morefeel good than that.
I don't overcome it.
I think most of the people thatcome to us like, by the time
they come to us, because wedon't like cold outreach people
(20:52):
or anything like that.
People come to us and they say,hey, I want what you have and
we built our attractionmarketing right out and that's
what we help people Thank you somuch.
And it's more fun than likeknocking down other people's
doors because you don't positionyourself as the prize as much.
In that case and I believethat's the ideal way to do it is
(21:13):
get people to come to you andthen position yourselves as the
prize and sure, yeah, I'll helpyou.
So when people come in, I thinka lot of them come to us
already knowing like they canalready feel and sense the
difference than the lower endEveryone's in their DMs or the
(21:34):
agencies that have no specialtyor have no niche, but there's
still always something there andI think there's always like a
mistrust, and I think there'salways a mistrust.
(22:07):
I know you guys, as contractors, have to experience the
mistrust from homeowners thatare scared that you're going to
take their money and not do.
They say that they're going todo that, believe in the golden
rule that treat other peoplelike they should be treated,
that care about getting them theright thing for their situation
, and then those peoplegenerally believe that's what
we're doing, which is what we'retrying to do.
Right, it was just we're tryingto live, trying to do the stuff
that they actually need notsell them shit they don't need
(22:27):
or trying to help them growtheir businesses.
So it's just.
I think it's just more and morewe're trying to get around
people that act like that andthus trust people like that.
You know, I mean I'm not veryhard to.
If you try to sell me something, I'm not that hard to.
I trust people like I trustpeople a lot that are trying to
sell me stuff, because I thinkthat makes a better sales force.
(22:49):
I think I'm not always secondguessing.
Everyone, yes, does that everyonce in a while.
Screw me over.
Does that every once in a while, leave me with some piece of
exercise equipment that doesn'tdo what it says it's going to do
, or whatever, sure, yeah?
Or a cologne that smells likedog shit on a boot.
Yeah, every once in a while, Iclick an Instagram ad and get
(23:13):
some stuff.
That wasn't great, but I think,overall, I try to live and try
to sell things in a way that'saccurately accurate and try to
work with companies that do thattoo.
I know you guys, in the H-Jackworld there's a little bit more
of hey, we're selling themoptions, and let's not worry so
(23:38):
much about whether I know that.
There's all kinds of differentpeople, but I think I I don't
know, talk to me.
Let's go into that for a second, because you've seen the hvac
world and the roofing world.
Do you ever think like though?
I know the roofing world hasits own problems with, like,
manual damage and some otherweird things that sometimes
(24:00):
happen but do you think that thehvac world is a little sneakier
sometimes?
Corey Berrier (24:06):
yeah, so I think, yeah, I can clarify that you've
got.
You got roofers that'll tearyour house up.
If so, I'll say some roofersthat will rip shingles off or
whatever, and that's unethical.
And then you've got some hvacguys that will say sell them
everything.
And maybe what their intentionis, you know sell them, give
(24:32):
them options to do nothing, fixthe problem or sell them a new
system.
But then I think sometimesthat's misinterpreted and
sometimes intentionally from theowner.
Intentionally he wants you tosell everything.
The owner Intentionally hewants you to sell everything
(24:53):
regardless.
And then sometimes I thinkyou've got people that will,
because they're getting paid todo this.
Now I'm not shitting onperformance pay, all right,
let's be clear.
I think that's vitallyimportant to the success of a
business when I say performancepay, meaning you get a SPF or a
percentage of what you sell, butI also think that percentage
(25:13):
should be equal.
I may get killed for sayingthis, but I don't think it
should be 12 or 15% on a repairand 2% on a new system, because
then you're leveraging morerepairs than you are, unless
that's the business model, right.
So it's not okay to repair a$6,000 repair when in a month or
(25:39):
two months or six monthsthere's going to be another
$2,000 repair and you're goingto capitalize on that also, yeah
.
And so that's where thesneakiness could come in, with
either the technician selling,technician, comfort advisor, and
or could be the owner passingthat down.
Tim Brown (25:57):
I've seen all of those things have you been out
on like job sites or what isyour level of depth on the
roofing industry and its vibes?
Corey Berrier (26:10):
ask me the question and, yeah, I'll see if
I can have you seen any?
Tim Brown (26:13):
do you are you aware of the level of occasional lack
of integrity in the roofingindustry and are you?
I'm wondering if you couldcompare the levels for me, if
you know, if you have thatinformation, but I don't.
Corey Berrier (26:28):
Probably worse in the roofing industry, and I'll
only say that because mostroofers are not actually roofers
, they're glorified salespeople.
Nothing wrong with that.
And I realized this when I wentup to Hunter Ballou's Revolt
(26:49):
Roofcon oh yeah, revolt.
And I'm sitting around with 50other roofers and they're all
just salespeople.
They're not hanging shingles,they're not climbing on the
house, which is my idea of aroofer.
Now, some people do, but veryseldom do you hear of the roofer
being the actual guy getting onthe house and he may be looking
(27:11):
at the shingles but he's notinstalling anything.
He's got a team that does that.
He's just selling the roof,whereas HVAC, if you've got
selling technicians, they canfix it or they can sell it,
which is usually a unicorn, notsuper common, not that they can
do both well.
So I think that the roofingindustry has it's a little bit
(27:34):
more renegade no, yeah, I think,and it's also.
Tim Brown (27:38):
I always think about indoor, outdoor, like indoor
cats versus outdoor.
But the thing is like hvac, Ithink I thought it.
I'm just gonna be real, realright now.
Somebody can hate me if theywant, but I think I thought it.
I'm just gonna be real, realright now.
Somebody can hate me if theywant, but I think I thought it
was a little bit more white,glove, soft, but then when I'm
out in the field I can feel likeit is often crunchy, sometimes
(28:02):
soft, but a lot of times likeit's the same kind of people,
it's just there's a certainpretense that gets dropped when
you can do the work.
You know what I mean.
Like when you, because, becausepeople that real techs, feels
like real techs that can getthis shit done, like sometimes
they seem a little crunchier incertain ways because they can,
they don't, they're not scaredfor their job.
(28:23):
I what are you gonna fire me?
I'm the one guy that knows howto do this, to work on these
systems for real.
You know what I mean.
There's a little bit more ofthat which would be reminiscent
of the actual shingle installersversus the salespeople, kind of
like you're saying, and sothere's a down-to-earth,
salt-to-the-earth vibe thatsometimes we don't see, because
(28:46):
a lot of the actual shingle, theshingle installers, are mexican
and they're not.
We're not always having when Igo out on the job I don't know
spanish so I'm not always havingthose conversations with them.
I do know some shingle, likeI'm friends with shingle
installers.
They just happen to be a littlefar fewer and farther between
for the industry.
(29:06):
That, as far as the white dudesbasically and I know, like I
know the ones that do have alittle bit more of that vibe too
, which is the more like hey,what are you gonna do?
Corey Berrier (29:18):
I can actually do the work, so try messing with
me and I'm gonna, and I'mactually going to do the work.
I'm actually going to carry 600pounds on my shoulders up the
ladder.
You can't do that because, yeah, these guys, those guys that
install, are like it's my, it'smind-blowing to me how they're
just like a machine, like Idon't understand how they work
(29:40):
so hard in the work, thoughthat's a little different.
Tim Brown (29:45):
Like with it sorry, I'm just like like dissecting
the industry a little bit butlike in hvac, the level of
technical information, likeknowledge required, is a lot
higher.
It feels, not to say there'snot valleys and intricacies on
roofs, but they're just not astechnical.
So it's a different, a littlebit different of a industry.
In that way, I would say I wassurprised a little bit by some
(30:11):
of the aggressive sales tacticsin hvac, and I'm not even anti,
that's the point.
It sounds like I might sayingthat out of the gate.
It might sound like I'm anti.
One, I'm taking notes.
I'm also learning this shit,thank you.
And then, two, there is placeswhere it's too much right.
There's like spots in the hvacindustry that are a little you
(30:34):
guys are better at it butthere's also places where it's a
little like maybe you're goingtoo far with some of that, from
what I can tell.
Corey Berrier (30:41):
Yeah, and that's just like my first couple years
impression here yeah, I agree,and some of the people I'm
certainly not going to dropnames and they're not all bad
and they're not all good, butthere's a lot of sales trainers
out there that they teach you topretty much not take no for an
(31:02):
answer and I don't really agreewith that.
I think that there's.
You can push a customer.
Let me just say, push might beaggressive.
(31:30):
You can leverage the knowledgeto get a customer to make a
decision, but you should do thatin a very tactful way and
really, if you've built rapportup until that point, you really
shouldn't have to push thatindividual into making a
decision because ultimately, thebox is the box.
They're all the same, right,they're all the same, the
installation's important, butthey're buying the person in the
home.
They're buying that individualand most of the time, people the
price doesn't matter as much ifthey really like you as an
(31:52):
individual.
Yeah, and some companies don'tknow how to overcome that and a
lot of that is they've got theirpeople, their technicians are
scheduled so tightly that theydon't have the time to build
that relationship.
And I get it Summertime is whenyou make all your money.
(32:13):
But you're also doing yourtechnicians and the customer a
disservice because you're notallowing them time to build that
relationship, whereas roofersdo have more of that time,
unless they're in a storm, andthat's a bit different scenario.
Tim Brown (32:32):
Yeah, once again, though they're not always doing
the work so they have all thatextra time when you say roofer,
yeah, they have all that extratime because they can hang out
with them Things I felt like Ilearned from this last few years
hanging with these badass HVACsales coaches that are pretty
crazy.
Really good is the optionsthing, making sure people have
(32:53):
options, maybe even thepresentation of those options,
and what is your take fromhighest to lowest, what is what
order do you recommend givingoptions?
The highest, start at thehighest.
Corey Berrier (33:10):
Is that what?
Tim Brown (33:11):
you're.
Is that what you mean?
Yeah, Start at the highest.
Is that what you're is?
Corey Berrier (33:12):
that what you mean?
Yeah, start at the highest.
Yeah, well, because therethere's a, there's some people
that are gonna want the veryhighest thing.
It's if you go buy a vehicle atwhatever dealership, you may
want every option on the vehiclejust because you want to have
the vehicle with all the options, but if you don't have that
option to buy that vehicle, youcan't buy it.
Most people are going to landin the middle, some are going to
(33:35):
land at the bottom, but a lotof times, if you do it the right
way, 90% of them are going toland in that middle option
because they don't want theshittiest system and they don't
want the Cadillac system.
So where do they land is in themiddle.
Tim Brown (33:53):
Something I didn't experience with roofing sales
coaches but I enjoyed with HVACis around even things like magic
moments, where you're callingthe customer by their name.
By the way, the more you usethe name, the higher the sales
likelihood goes up.
I did not know that.
Rilla taught me that.
The magic moments thing, JoeCorsera's thing, where it's like
(34:16):
hey, can I tell you something?
Hey, Corey, can I tell yousomething?
And then they say yes and youget permission, and then the
idea of I think it's really goodwhat you're doing for your home
, and I believe that this is theexact right thing, and I think
that getting this taken care ofbefore it turned into a giant
problem was wise of you as afather or as a mother or
whatever.
(34:36):
They didn't have that.
They didn't know about all this, they didn't know about using
humanity, but I think it's alsotreating people like humans.
You know what I mean.
I think it's also treatingpeople like humans.
You know what I mean.
I think it's smart and there'sa couple other things like that
where it was like I just feltlike when I came into HVAC, the
(34:57):
level of sales coaching was justup from roofing by a lot.
So I hope that roofers learn alot from as some of these
coaches and consultants comeover from the HVAC world into
roofing, cross-pollinating theprofessionalism and a little bit
more of the soft skills of thesales process.
(35:19):
I think roofing has beenspoiled by insurance and storm
work to the point where theydon't necessarily even need to
have a high touch sales mindset.
They're literally justprescribing the fix to a storm
damage problem and I think thatthese softer, high touch vibe
(35:42):
selling I don't know how to sayit.
Corey Berrier (35:44):
All right, so let's get back for a second to
you.
We said it's really greatyou're doing.
Second to what you said it'sreally great that you're doing,
can I ask you a question?
Is it really great?
It's really great You're doingthis for your family or little
Johnny, or whatever?
Yeah, I think that's fine, aslong as you truly mean that
statement.
Yeah, and I think I believethat it will come across
subconsciously.
I'll pick up on if you're justtelling me it's not authentic
(36:05):
Absolutely, consciously.
I'll pick up on if you're justtelling me it's not authentic
Absolutely, and I think that'swhere that part gets lost in
translation, because people thatdon't really mean it are saying
it and it's not working.
Tim Brown (36:18):
Yeah, and it's funny though, because that and things
like it, when we complimentsomebody, I think no matter what
, even if you knew it was atactic, it's hard for somebody
to hate that.
No, I'm not even saying it'sabsolutely right or anything,
(36:52):
but I do think that when you saypositive stuff to the homeowner
, when you make it a positivefeeling experience that like
touches on, like humanconnection.
I think that we could stand formore of that, even if you at
the risk of us disagreeing and Idon't think there's anything
wrong with it if we disagree butI think that it's better almost
every single time, even ifyou're contriving it a bit at
the beginning, if you can learn.
Like I said, I hope it's okayif we disagree on this, but I
(37:13):
think there's an element of ifyou can, on purpose, put more of
those types of things into thesales process, that you can
create brain chemicals for thathomeowner and almost even if
(37:34):
they know what you're trying todo and I think I, when I find
myself in a situation because Iuse these things in sales now
and get on a phone call with meand we'll test them out sometime
audience, but I truly do makesure I try to fully be there and
present and use presence toreally truly mean it.
(37:56):
I don't say it like it's a line.
I agree that you have to havefull emotion and feeling and
somebody could do one line inthe home of the exact same line,
but with the wrong inflectionand with no spirit of like
empathy and like actual presence, and that line will just flop,
(38:19):
flop and then on the other side,if you did that same line, same
exact words, but like withpacing, and you care about the
person and even though, yes,you've said this line before, I
actually am really proud of you,like that you're getting this
taken care of before it turnsinto a bigger mess and you have
(38:42):
conviction when you say it, thenit could definitely hit much
harder.
So I think that, like, thosethings still can be developed,
there can be a prescription forthose things which is like
pacing, body language, facialexpressions and emotion and
presence.
And you can I'm not, naturallythat I can figure out how to do
(39:05):
that with the person I'm sellingto and I actually can try to be
more present.
And I think I'm not a masterHVAC salesperson by any means,
I'm just more.
I like that there's a littlebit more intention in this
industry around things like that.
That's all.
That's what.
Corey Berrier (39:21):
I like about it Well, and I think you can
develop those empathetic,emotional mad.
I think you can develop thetalk track and the emotion, even
if you don't mean it at first,if you're trying, if you're
trying to get to that point, Ido believe you can rewire to the
point where, if you see it workor you test it and it works, I
(39:45):
think you can develop into theperson that really means that as
well.
Tim Brown (39:51):
Yeah, yeah and hey, this process of learning sales
is always so back and forth onthat thing where it's like
what's authentic?
And then it's this works.
And then you're like I want tomake sure that this is authentic
because I don't want to go offin a path that ends with me
being a piece of shit and thenit's I do know that like ends
with me being a piece of shit,and then it's I do know that
(40:12):
this works.
I know that certain things workand I'm trying not to use them.
You know, it's like like atthis point in my life I'm sure,
oh, I like the camera went wayover there, over here.
Yeah, where'd it go?
My robot got stuck over there.
Yeah, where'd it go?
(40:32):
My robot got stuck over there.
There's an element of I want tobe like I feel powerful, like
I'm sure you feel this way too.
Like with sales, like youthings that work and not all
those things are we learn someforbidden knowledge along the
way.
When you study sales, you'relike I've got a bunch of sales
books behind me.
I got the 10X rule, thechallenger, sale pitch, anything
(40:53):
.
I've got some of my favoritebooks.
You learn some things along theway that could be used for ill
or ill-gotten gain or whatever.
And it's such a weird thingbecause I do feel very
persuasive and I do know how tohelp people do what I want them
to do.
And I'm not saying that I'mlike the best salesperson ever,
(41:15):
but that is a weird part aboutbeing a salesperson.
Corey Berrier (41:18):
Yeah, but you're doing it because you know the
outcome is going to bebeneficial for them.
Yes, you're not doing itbecause you're trying to strip
them of $30,000 and they'regoing to get nothing.
Tim Brown (41:30):
Yes, and that is the trick.
Right, it has to be.
One of my other favorite booksThink or Grow.
Rich says essentially, it'shard to get wealthy unless you
have the mindset that everyexchange should be good for both
parties.
Every exchange should be goodfor both parties.
You have to make that promiseto yourself that you're only
(41:54):
going to do things becauseotherwise you'll self-sabotage
yourself.
Most people with a consciencewill end up not being as good as
they could have been becausethey feel like they maybe don't
deserve it.
With some exceptions, there'sactual people that are
psychopathic out there that canjust do things for their own
gain with no other consideration.
But most of us need that deeperpart of us on board with
(42:18):
success.
Most of us need it to be realand for us to make sure we're
actually helping people.
Otherwise you get demotivated.
Corey Berrier (42:28):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So I think so thatself-sabotage portion where I'm
going to do this thing for youand, yeah, I'm not going to ask
for what I really want, becausemaybe I don't deserve it when do
you think that comes from?
Tim Brown (42:46):
I like that too, and I think it just I'll come back
to that in one second I justwant to take 20 seconds and say
I think that this is reallyimportant when selling or
growing a business too, becauseif you have two thoughts you
have I want to sell a lot, but Ialso don't know if we can
handle it, the amount of workthen you're going to always be
subtly accidentally sellingagainst yourself, even if you
(43:08):
don't know to the people thatyou're selling to, and so you
have to get that really clear.
Can we handle more work?
Yes, and I want more work and Iwant a lot of it.
Right, like we have to get thatvery clear in our subconscious
so it's not pushing against us.
And I think where that relatesjust more generally to life is
like I need to get it clear thatI'm a good person and that I
(43:31):
deserve winning.
I need to clarify at my deepestlevel that I love myself,
because I don't want to be thekind of guy that's like subtly
because people do that all thetime right, you'll talk to even
somebody with a big ego and youcan tell that they don't really
like themselves deep down, kindof thing.
And I think that there's.
(43:52):
If you don't get that clear andlove yourself, you're going to
accidentally push other peopleto not love you too.
And that doesn't mean just, oh,I get myself a really nice car
and I do first class lifestylethings.
(44:12):
It's no.
How do you talk to yourselfwhen no one else is around?
Are you like I'm a piece ofshit?
Or do you say I reallyappreciate that you're trying,
like?
I think, like something I'vebeen working on and it relates
to all that stuff we talked atthe beginning around letting go
and creating a life that has alittle bit of room to live, not
(44:39):
just work, is how would I treata friend If I was a friend?
How would I treat him if I wasa friend?
How would I treat him?
and I think that question helpsme clarify all that, so I don't
self-sabotage as much and a lotof it has to do with rest and a
(45:01):
lot of it has to do with findingways to do stuff I like every
single week, and sometimes thattakes like negotiating a little
bit with my wife or telling herwhy it's important.
Hey, I need to go work out inthe mornings because I feel a
lot better when I do and I thinkit's the right thing for both
of us if I'm feeling good andwhich takes a second, but then
it's not as hard as you think.
(45:21):
Once they get why it's good foryou.
And yeah, I bet you a lot ofpeople when I first started
taking Thursdays out for likewhat the fuck?
But now they know because I'mmore calm and I'm more centered
when I'm at work.
Corey Berrier (45:36):
I think that's just knowing.
I think that self-discovery,knowing yourself or discovering
what's beneficial for you, andit doesn't mean it's not the
same for everybody.
In fact, most people it'sprobably very different.
(45:59):
So where do you think theself-sabotage or the I'm not
good enough comes from?
Because I think a lot of peoplein recovery certainly start
that way, because addictionstarts with some sort of pain
and it ends with some sort ofpain, meaning you start.
The addiction starts whetherit's food, whether it's whether
it's drugs or alcohol.
You're doing it to cover upsomething and then you it gets
away from you and now the painis that you've got to do this
(46:22):
thing that's destroying yourlife until you decide to put it
down.
Tim Brown (46:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think when I was early in my
20s and stuff like that, I thinkI related it back to my parents
and maybe even some religioustrauma, because I grew up in the
church and they had a lot ofthings that they're always
making you think you were wrongabout Just even basic sexual
(46:52):
urges as a teenager.
All that stuff that makes youthink, oh, I might be a bad guy.
However, I sense I don't reallyhave a lot of resentments
against those types of systemsor people at this point.
I think we're all doing ourabsolute best and I think, no
matter what, there's somesuffering, and I think part of
(47:19):
that is ego and the inverse ofego, self-hatred that there's no
matter what culture you grow upin in if I grew up in a super
eastern culture or, my case,western religion or whatever, so
I don't know.
I just think that those thingshappen to the best of us, so to
speak, and I've taken as muchresponsibility for it as I
(47:43):
possibly could.
Where did I?
Not in a self-flagellating way,but in like a what?
How could I take responsibility?
What did I do that could haveled to this?
Because that's the only way I'mgoing to get control, or that's
the only way that I'm going toget like some positive next step
to help with it.
(48:05):
And so, reflecting back on whatcaused that root thing before
alcohol because it wasabsolutely I was a depressed
teenager and all that andalcohol and weed helped to be
honest with you.
So, rather than ruminating onwhat because there's so many
(48:25):
ways to have resentments, somany things Angry father, weird
pastors, very weird pastors andteachers that didn't give a fuck
the military-industrial complexthey really did make school
about compliance because ofthere was a period that they
literally I don't know if youknow this, but there was like
(48:48):
they actually changed school toget more compliance because they
didn't need critical thinkersanymore, they needed people to
work in factories.
So there was literally a push tochange the whole curriculum and
we wonder why it didn't feelgreat.
It was literally just aboutcompliance.
(49:10):
So there's so many things thatcould be, but I just look at it
now and I think, being cognizantof that for my kids, trying to
be real about the limitations ofcurrent educational system and
whatnot, but for me it's likefitness, meditation, taking as
(49:32):
much responsibility as Ipossibly can, nutrition, so that
I don't do it again, but otherthan that, I don't think.
I do my best not to sit thereand constantly analyze the roots
.
I'm in therapy and stuff too.
I do all the things but I trynot to sit there and resent the
(49:54):
pieces of what might have beenthe first couple inclinations
towards substances.
Those things have long sincepassed the window of opportunity
to fix, and so I just focus onnow what I can like work on.
Corey Berrier (50:14):
Yeah, have you ever heard of a program called
ACA?
Tim Brown (50:21):
I think so what is it ?
Corey Berrier (50:23):
Adult Children of Alcoholics and Functional.
So here's what's interestingabout this.
So I'm working through some ofthese things right now and what
I've found is like when, if youdon't think that you're good
enough for this thing, thenthere's a level of approval
(50:44):
seeking that you're looking foror that I would be looking for,
and that stems from not gettingthat approval as a child.
That doesn't mean you go blameyour parents for this thing.
That's not the idea.
The idea is that you have theknowledge now to do different.
And it's really fascinatingbecause I, I, I told the story
(51:10):
for years.
I had a great childhood becausethat was just the story I told
myself and looking back and nowdigging into this, like it
really wasn't a great childhood,it just wasn't like for a lot
of reasons Like.
I didn't go through anymolestation or anything like
that, or I didn't get beat where.
(51:32):
It's just what you think.
A lot of people think of what Ithought of as a bad childhood,
right?
No, it's like the drunk underthe bridge, right?
Everybody that's an alcoholicis a drunk under a bridge.
Tim Brown (51:43):
That's just not true yeah, no, I think that's good.
It's.
Yes, my dad was angry and wehad issues with that when I was
growing up.
The one funny thing thathappened recently with my pops
is that a thing with him.
My mom passed away this pastyear and he's gone through his
own weird transformation.
I swear to God, he was wearinglike Tom Ford cologne or
(52:06):
something like what is this?
My dad used to only wear brute,but anyways, I was just.
I was trying to mirror, tomirror.
You know how in sales we mirrorthings as I, so I like took him
by the shoulders.
I looked him directly in theface, I shook him and I said I
am so proud of you and he.
I told him to do it back and hedid it.
(52:26):
But, like, I don't care if it'sinauthentic, I needed that.
I needed my dad to say that tomy face.
It's so funny.
Yeah, we, we had a hard timegetting that approval in any way
shape or form in my familygrowing up.
So I know exactly what you'retalking about and, yes, you
could look at it and if Iscrutinized it, I could say that
(52:48):
was not a great childhood, butI also.
It's like when you become aparent, are you a parent?
I raised a daughter for 10 years, but she wasn't mine yeah but
you know how it's, it's hard toyou judge, you're judgy and tell
that's you and that's.
Oh, I see why they like letthem be on their tablet or
(53:08):
something in public.
So I just try not to be too nowas a parent.
I'm like try not to be too nowas a parent.
I'm like, try not to be toojudgy, although I don't yell,
and I don't want to ever yell infront of my kid, cause that was
tough yeah.
Corey Berrier (53:21):
Yeah, because it's really like shame.
Like you felt shame because youwere being yelled at for
whatever the thing was, causeyou didn't know any different.
We interpret things the way weinterpret things and, as a kid,
you don't have very much contextas to why these things are
happening.
You just have to take your own,your own perception of why
(53:45):
they're happening, which is, I'm, bad.
Tim Brown (53:46):
that's why it's happening yeah, no, I agree 100.
It's good to look at that.
Corey Berrier (53:51):
Everyone's small yeah, while, yeah, it's deep, we
go through some of this in,I'll just say, in six and seven,
character defects.
We look at how those show up inour lives and they continue to
show up.
It's not like we get rid ofthem, but at least you're aware
once you get to that point inthe steps.
(54:13):
Yeah, I agree, aware once youget to that point in the steps.
Yeah, I agree.
So how much do you?
How much time do you spend with, do you?
I don't know, you have sponsees.
Tim Brown (54:26):
I guess I can say yeah I have one sponsee right
now and I kind of always am onthe lookout.
If I can help somebody, I tryto make like I'll do a couple
meetings with somebody and justmake sure that I could help them
.
I think sometimes if somebodyis committed to using certain
other things besides alcohol,I'll be like I might not be your
guy Because I was actually astoner too.
So I was a stoner and I neededto be done with that.
(54:49):
So that's why I'm probably notgoing to be the best sponsor for
somebody who's like californiasober or whatever.
But I, yeah, I sponsor somebodyright now.
I don't know, I've always beenthe best sponsor.
I don't have the greatest trackrecord of success with my
sponsor, if I'm really honest,but I've got a guy who's going,
(55:10):
who's like almost all the waythrough the steps right now, and
I'm really grateful because itmakes me feel like less of a bad
sponsor.
Yeah, it's really good, usuallygrab food with them before the
meeting and stuff like that.
I go to a meeting every week,usually Got one in Minneapolis
and one in Austin.
I'm usually a once-a-week guy.
(55:30):
When I was first in recovery Iwould go five times a week
sometimes.
Corey Berrier (55:37):
So yeah, the community side of it, I think
for me.
I usually go to three a week inperson.
Occasionally I'll do an extraone, virtually, it's just not
quite the same and then I dohost I shouldn't say host.
I provide the Zoom link, Ishould say for people
(55:57):
specifically, just like EricObramp does for roofers in
recovery.
I do the same thing onSaturdays for people in HVAC and
it's starting to pick up somesteam, which is really
interesting, because going to aregular meeting everybody's the
same, but when you're in anindustry-specific meeting
(56:19):
there's a level of openness thathappens there.
That's very different.
Does that make sense?
Tim Brown (56:28):
Yeah, no, I agree yeah.
Corey Berrier (56:30):
It's really interesting.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Tim Brown (56:34):
Because you have people with your context on your
business and like, hey, we'regoing through this.
Oh, hey, it's tough when I'm oncall I'm guessing I haven't
been to the HVAC one.
But knowing they are goingthrough some of the same
situations and work stressorsand still staying sober, I'm
guessing, is very encouraging.
Corey Berrier (56:54):
Yeah, yeah, it is , and it is interesting you
bring up the California soberthing.
So I started my time over acouple of years ago.
Because of that, I haven'tdrank in, so mine's August the
12th 2009.
I haven't drank since August12th 2009.
But for about six or sevenyears in that latter part, I did
smoke weed and I had to startover.
(57:16):
I had to start my time over,which was humiliating, obviously
, and very humbling, but if Ihadn't have done that, I
wouldn't be able to one, Iwouldn't have made the progress
that I've made, because I wouldhave still been stuck in the
denial that I didn't need tostart over.
(57:38):
And I'm not saying everybodyneeds to start over, but it's
really afforded me anopportunity to talk to people
that are California sober andshare my experience with putting
that down and becoming moresober, putting that down and
becoming more sober.
Tim Brown (57:57):
I think one of the reasons I don't do it like I'm
scared to sponsor somebodythat's like really into that or
doesn't want to let that go, isI just I'm scared for myself.
I don't want their mindsetaround that to confuse me, and I
do think there's a certainamount of you gotta take care of
yourself first, right?
We can't save everyone.
Sometimes it's just not theright person to do it for you.
(58:19):
I am trying to stay sober.
I'm trying to stay all the waysober.
And God, I don't know, I'm not.
It's crazy.
Where I was at a meeting lastnight and this guy was, I didn't
realize I was telling my storyabout being 15 years tomorrow,
yesterday, and then the guy getsto him and he goes.
I'm back after being sober for16 years and going out on my own
(58:41):
and I was like, oh shit, wedon't have guarantees, right?
So it's scary.
I just want to try to be safe.
I want to guard my mind againstme thinking I can because I'm,
I really could and I canconvince myself that I'm.
Oh, you know, weed's legal nowin minnesota or whatever.
(59:01):
Yeah, you, yeah for sure.
But I'm not saying I'm likethat's the right answer.
I'm saying that's for me,that's my answer, that's right
now.
That's where I'm at.
Corey Berrier (59:10):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Spiritually.
It disconnected me personally,yeah, and so that's where my
sobriety took a turn.
Is because I then relied onweed, just like I would anything
else opposed to God.
Tim Brown (59:29):
Yeah, it's already hard to remember God.
Imagine being stoned Right.
I forgot stoned Right.
I forgot to pray.
I forgot to pray this morning.
Imagine if I wake and make thatI wouldn't be praying for five
days.
I don't know.
It's true, yeah.
Corey Berrier (59:44):
Yeah, and it's slowly just strip everything
away, and it's so subtle.
It's not like you went and gotdrunk and wrecked your car Cause
then that's so subtle.
It's not like you went and gotdrunk and wrecked your car,
because then it's really clearthat you've made a mistake With
weed.
It's just a slow.
You just don't even realizeit's happening.
Tim Brown (01:00:02):
Yeah.
Corey Berrier (01:00:03):
Yeah, at least that was what happened with me.
So I know that we're gettingclose on time.
But what would you say ifsomebody's listening that maybe
they are struggling with drugsor alcohol?
What would you say has beenyour biggest benefit of being in
(01:00:25):
recovery?
Because there's a difference inbeing sober and being in
recovery.
You can just not drink and befucking miserable, or you can be
in recovery and be happy yeah,I think.
Tim Brown (01:00:38):
Obviously it happens different for every single
person, but for me, having morealignment between what I say I
want to do and what I do, havingmore clarity around this is
real.
What I'm doing right now isreal.
Everything is real, even ifit's hard sometimes, and the
(01:01:06):
ability to take all the thingsthat were really difficult in my
drinking and drugging and evenpast that right.
Like all the other things I'vegone through and learn how to
learn from every single one ofthem.
It gets very strong.
Like all the other things I'vegone through and learn how to
learn from every single one ofthem, it gets very strong.
Like a lot of things are verystrong for me in my life because
of the ability to takeadversity and turn it into
something more hopeful, and alsofor me to feel better from
(01:01:31):
going through those things andthen taking the lessons,
actually taking the lessons andto use those lessons.
So it just trained into me anidea about life that I can get
better through adversity andit's trained into me out of
desperation that I have to beuseful to other people and I
have to continue to all the timebe looking for ways to be
(01:01:53):
useful to other people, and it'sa very positive thing.
It's a very clean thing, it's avery wholesome thing that I'm
always trying to do, and thosethings make life a lot more
meaningful, and I believe thatmeaningful, a meaningful life is
really more enjoyable to live.
Corey Berrier (01:02:12):
Also, I agree with everything you said, but
also I think and I bet you'llagree with this we have a
framework that allows us torecognize.
I'll give you a great example.
Let's just pretend that you saysomething shitty to your wife
(01:02:34):
and you know it's shitty afteryou say it.
The first thing likely you dois you make amends to her and
you correct it.
Tim Brown (01:02:43):
If I had to guess, yeah, I'm much more quick to
actually own up to my issues outof necessity, because I can't,
I don't want to live with thelike pain of the anxiety of not
doing something, versus back inthe day you could kind of like
etch a sketch that with a littlewhiskey or weed.
(01:03:07):
So now I've got a lot more likeskin in the game.
I'm not.
I'm risking my day to notapologize.
Corey Berrier (01:03:18):
Yeah, that's right, and I think I think
that's been one of the thingsthat's been really helpful for
me is to be able to recognizethat when I am wrong to, to make
that amends, and then am wrongto to make that amends.
And then also, I think one ofthe other benefits too is
genuinely giving withoutanything in return, because it's
(01:03:41):
not like we get paid as asponsor.
You don't get paid to do that,it's freely.
You're giving your time forfree and there's no other way.
In my opinion, it's hard tofeed without having that
framework and understanding thenatural benefits that come from
giving that time freely.
(01:04:03):
I don't know how else you wouldfigure out that process.
Does that make sense?
Tim Brown (01:04:10):
Yeah, no, exactly.
I think it's like recovery and12 steps they put encourage you
to do this right, like you'resupposed to go to, you're
supposed to help people andyou're supposed to like actually
give completely.
And I even buy my guy dinner alot.
Sometimes we switch off.
I probably buy it more often Idon't and it's just a reminder.
(01:04:32):
Constantly we're on borrowedtime, you owe it forward.
Like it's not even pay itforward, it's like you owe it
forward or you might lose it.
Use it or lose.
It is really the best way tothink about like recovery and
it's a consistent reminder andyou also do end up getting.
It's a very it's a positivereward loop cycle because you
immediately get a reminder of oh, that's what I'm in, I remember
(01:04:55):
that about early sobriety and Iappreciate that and like they
have so much more of a recentcontext on what it's like to
actually be active drinking andusing.
So it's like that recentcontext helps you like remember,
yeah, and it keeps you in aspot where you're more likely to
stay sober for that day andthat's a big deal.
(01:05:17):
And this experience, thesemeetings and these times with
people that are desperate andneed, they're an experience that
just gets baked into you overtime and more and more why it's
good for people.
I know more and more why it'sgood for people like me to stay
sober.
I'm not saying that I willnever go out, I'm just saying
(01:05:41):
today I'm very aware and I'mappreciative that this guy last
night that was his secondmeeting after being sober for 16
years and then going out for ayear I'm so grateful he came.
It was bold for him.
It was humbling for him to comeback after not having.
He didn't go for a long timebut that was really helpful for
(01:06:04):
me because I was 15 and he was16.
There's a lot of serendipitylike that at meetings, or it's
just a pattern.
Let's play down of serendipitylike that at meetings where, oh,
or it's just a pattern.
Let's play down thisserendipity and this might be a
pattern with us alcoholics.
We tend to forget.
Corey Berrier (01:06:22):
Yeah, built-in forgetter.
Yeah yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm reallyreally grateful for the program
being there and having the stepsand being able to give back.
I think it's made me a betterhuman being.
Oh yeah, for sure.
(01:06:43):
Tim, where can people find youif they'd like to talk to you
about recovery or purchase yourmarketing?
Tim Brown (01:06:51):
Sure, yeah, tim Hook on Facebook is a great way to
find me, tim Hook andhookagencycom to check out our
marketing services.
And thank you for Corey forhaving me on.
I don't think, like I said,it's been a long.
Even the ones where I've toldmy story, I didn't go more into
the like solution style stuff.
So it's really nice to be on apodcast and get to talk about
(01:07:13):
this and go deep on it.
So thank you for letting me dothat.
Corey Berrier (01:07:17):
Yeah, you're welcome.
I appreciate you doing it, myfriend.
I'll talk to you soon.
Yes, sir, thanks, you got it.
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