April 10, 2025 • 47 mins
We welcome people who listen as we normally do (0:02). We give the contents of this episode (1:06).
For this special Thursday episode, it's almost all of Netflix's 'Adolescence' as it is the only series we cover -- that is, if you'll forgive some talk about where '30 Rock' lands as a comedy (2:05)
As far as the Netflix, four-part miniseries has import in each scene. We start with no spoilers about the series (5:22) before getting into spoilers for the second, third, and forth episode of the daring series (10:33)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey y'all.
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We are called Taking it Down.
We cover TV streaming, moviesthat might be streaming.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're really probably one ofthe best podcasts ever.
Just if you're new to us now,you know, and we're grounded right
(00:22):
here in the middle of theworking class watching people think
and about things.
So as podcasting goes, we feellike we do a really good job and
we hope that you sense it aswell and that we care.
But there are cost withhosting podcasts, creating a site,
having it run smoothly,production to get these things right,
having the right microphone,and simple things like that that
(00:44):
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You can use either stripe orbuy me a coffee to make a one time
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And the podcast family, anyamount really does help a ton and
we thank you for that.
(01:05):
This is a Thursday episode.
We don't do a lot of Thursdayepisodes, but lately we have done
a couple because they seemwarranted to give a more thorough
discussion about the topic.
This week we'll start thefirst half like always.
It will be no spoilers.
You can listen to it anytime.
And then when you reach thespoiler half, you can come back later
(01:28):
or listen on through if you'recaught up on what we're talking about.
And this week it'sAdolescence, the four episode miniseries
on Netflix.
Little intense this week.
If you've seen the show, youknow why.
But we did feel like this showdeserved its own focus.
With me, today is going to be Donovan.
No, Adam, this Thursday.
(01:49):
Donovan and I will get intothings very soon.
If you need time steps to helpyou navigate what to hear and what
not to hear.
We put those in there for youto help you out.
So look for those.
They're usable on any platformthese days.
So let me get Donovan in here.
(02:10):
Okay, it is me, just like Isaid before, I'm Blaine and it's
Donovan with me.
And there is no Adam as hehasn't seen adolescence.
All of our focus and attentionon this podcast episode is about
the four episode miniseries onNetflix made by Stephen Graham.
You may know him.
(02:31):
He's played the father in themost recent adaptation of Matilda
on Netflix.
He was once the young AlCapone on Boardwalk Empire on hbo.
He is an actor on Peaky Blinders.
I have not seen that show, butI know it's very popular and people
love it.
You may know him from those.
But he has put this together.
It's.
(02:51):
I get the sense that I'm speculating.
I get the sense it's kind of his.
His baby, his labor of love.
I thought this was reallyinteresting based on where it all
goes.
I was reading, like, he.
His initial idea for it waswhen he wanted there to be like a.
Like, it's a troubled kid who.
(03:11):
Who gets into a bad situation,but it's not.
It's not the fault of theparents or the family, and they're.
They're navigating it, too.
That's really all we'reprobably going to focus on.
Donovan.
Sometimes I bring shows to youguys here that you haven't seen or
we talk, maybe general things.
Any television that's caughtyour attention.
(03:32):
Does rewatching 30 Rock whileI eat supper count?
Is that what you've been doing?
Yeah.
It's a classic, right?
It is a classic.
Like, where does it rank foryou among Arrested Development, King
of the Hill, and perhaps someothers that you have high esteem
for?
Probably between, like, those two.
(03:52):
It's.
It's number three.
It's not one or two, becauseit didn't.
It wasn't strong the whole waythrough in a way that the first three
seasons of ArrestedDevelopment were.
But it is also.
It's just like.
It's so.
It's got just such, like, itsown goofy brand of humor.
Like, you can't help but notbe like.
Like, amused by it.
Does It's Always Sunny inPhiladelphia go in that range as
(04:16):
well?
Is that.
I know.
That's almost like.
That's almost like anothertype of.
I don't know.
It is fantastic.
Like, those shows are doingone thing, and then you've got over
Sonny here, right?
Like, with the episode thatCharlie's trying to, like, pass the
inspection in the bar, andFrank keeps flushing his clothes
down the toilet, and he'slike, I'm painting a shirt, Charlie.
(04:37):
Like, that's a completelyother realm of joke.
It is absurd in the.
It's so good in the dumbestkind of way.
It has, like.
It has a different.
There's like a wordplay anabsurdity level to 30 rock that is
like a conversationalabsurdity, but also a worldly absurdity
(04:58):
that, like, Sunny both doesand doesn't have.
Where it's not that it's notvisually or visually funny.
It's not that it's notverbally clever.
It's not the same thing.
And the Absurdity is somehowkind of more grounded in its own
weird way.
Except also it's not groundedat all.
Yeah, it's good we get achance to open the floor of some
(05:21):
of our favorite comediesbecause we're about to get into the
show adolescence.
Before we reach spoilers,though, I would.
I was thinking about the audience.
If anyone hasn't seen this orit didn't get a lot of focus, but
the focus it got from criticswas they were floored by how great
it was.
That was the sense I got.
As was I.
(05:42):
After watching all of it.
The audience, I think is.
Is going to be.
It just feels like a mustwatch for parents and it feels like
a good watch for anyone whoenjoys well made television and who
also likes an occasional pieceof work to.
To have an intensity to it andto ask profoundly deep and sad questions.
(06:08):
Mm.
Netflix's Can Numbers Can Be Believed.
Damn near all of you have already.
Watched this is it in one ofthe rankings where they give you
the.
Apparently they're saying it's been.
It's a.
It's been a big.
It's been streamed more thanStranger Things like the season one,
I think.
Yeah.
I was.
Thanks to the editors of theGuardian who let me look all this
(06:29):
stuff up quickly.
That's intense.
That's a big show for them.
Also, if you want to know, itis a British drama.
Four episodes only.
Most of those run right aroundthe 52 hour mark.
That's about all you reallywant to know going in.
Yeah, I'd say so.
(06:51):
I think that most people.
And you mentioned this thelast Thursday episode we did that
most people going in knowsthat it is.
Each episode is one shot withno edits for the scenes.
Yes.
I think while we're still in.
I think this is spoiler freefor me to say, but you know, I kind
of questioned my first timeanytime I see that is, you know.
(07:13):
You know, if you havesomething really cool and technical
like that, it's like, okay, isit necessary or is it just like a
sort of like weird flex, right.
Like where the guy's justlike, like doing something like masochistic
just to show that they.
They can.
Right.
And I'll say for my.
My summary that not only was I.
(07:33):
I thought that it was usefulor as.
As under something thatunderpins and undergirds the show.
I was fascinated by over thecourse of four episodes, the, the
different ways that a singleshot is.
Is used.
It's not.
They're all very different.
Which I thought was really,really interesting.
(07:54):
I agree with that, the oneshot technique used for each episode
is not bombast.
I think it kind of fits thisstory and there is a little ambiguity
as to how it fits the story.
So you can interpret that.
I think with.
We might get into some ofthose ideas after the spoiler align
(08:15):
today.
What I liked about it was Ithink it's kind of like what you
just said, Blaine, where thereare honestly at points in these.
I mean, obviously you're like,oh, this is single shot.
This is.
This is so technically impressive.
But there are honestly momentswhere it's serving the show so well
that you kind of like, oh,right, it is a single shot.
(08:37):
That's right.
It doesn't bring attention toitself, which is seems crazy to say
because it's a really, youknow, when it's a really flashy technique.
Right.
If you were.
Or it can be, you know, evenhow Alfred Hitchcock couldn't really
get it right.
But here, you know it, there'ssome great moments where it's like,
yeah, this is a single shot,isn't it?
Holy smokes.
I wasn't even thinking about that.
(08:58):
Or some whales.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yep.
We're dancing a little, so wemight as well get into spoilers.
What we'll do is we'll take aquick little break.
30 seconds.
If you've seen all episodes ofAdolescence, you will not be surprised
in spoiler.
Now, if you're not averse tospoilers, then listen on.
(09:18):
But just a heads up, I'd watch.
If I may advise you, dear,dear listener, I'm usually like,
I don't really care that muchabout spoilers.
I would advise you, it's notspoilers necessarily.
It's like, don't go in withwhat we thought about it.
You watch it for yourself and then.
And then come and listen towhatever we have to say.
(09:39):
But watch it for yourself.
Less spoilers, more impact.
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
All right, I'll see you in 30 seconds.
Do you love music?
Do you want to explore classic albums?
If you answered yes, thencheck out Polyphonic Press.
I'm Jeremy and along with myco host John, we rely on the patented
(10:01):
Random Album generator to pickan album for us to review at the
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We have no idea what albumwe're going to be listening to.
That's what keeps it really exciting.
We dig real deep into these albums.
So if this sounds interesting,come along with us on this journey
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We release a new episode everyTuesday morning.
(10:24):
That's Polyphonic Press.
And we're available on everypodcast platform form.
So we did begin a shortdiscussion about adolescence on Netflix
a few weeks ago, probablyabout two weeks ago.
And a standalone episode ofour podcast that's a rare Thursday
release.
Nothing special.
It's just an extra episode for us.
Donovan and I only discussedthe first episode as we were gauging
(10:47):
the critical hype here.
We're gonna pick up withepisode two and go all the way until
the end of the four part series.
So if you want to save thissection until you've seen the whole
batch, that's much advised.
So Donovan, we're going topick up a little with the second
episode.
Yeah.
These are all one shot.
And this episode is all in a school.
(11:09):
Yep.
And it looked terrifying.
Bone shaking.
Frightening.
For me as a teacher andcertainly for me looking back as
a kid, it's so.
It's so good because itcompletely undergirds when the detective
inspector.
I think it's detective inspection.
Detective sergeant.
The two police officers, like, they're.
They're sitting there justlike, I hate this place.
(11:32):
Yeah.
I hate what it reminds me of.
And you can see, like they dosuch a good job of like it's kids
not playing.
Paying attention.
It's like, you know, it'sboring classes.
It's, you know, it's.
It's all.
It's like a pressure cookerfor, you know, teachers who aren't
qualified to teach.
In this case with the history teacher.
Right.
Like he just kind of walksaround and doesn't.
It's the kind of thing you'relike, I'm so GLAD I'm not 17 anymore.
(11:55):
Absolutely.
It drove that home.
The rampant disrespect, thelack of kindness you saw from many
people here.
I know.
It happens.
I'm lucky that I don't work inan environment like that.
I don't know how you could.
I don't know how I could.
Y'all that are teachers and goto school every day.
(12:19):
I don't know how y'all do it.
Well.
And I.
Mine's much easier than that display.
Yeah.
I just.
And I love.
So this is something I learnedtoday too.
I'm gonna look up his name.
The guy who plays BascomDetective's bester at Bascombe.
Ashley Walters.
Yes.
He was planning to quit actingand go into directing.
He wasn't gonna.
(12:40):
And they talked him back intoit for this.
He's central to this episode.
Yeah.
As the.
What a great.
I.
I think works so well.
And I kind of tried to alludeto it last week.
And I don't.
I don't know.
I don't have a good way to sayit, but we.
We have so little time withthis character.
In fact, this is the last timewe're gonna see this character for
(13:00):
this whole series.
Huh.
This is it.
The show.
And the plot just does such agood job of.
Instead of him, like, say,like, here's who I am and here's
how I feel by the.
The environment that he'sencountering by the.
And the way that he reacts tothe environment of the school.
And.
And, like, memories and fearsand things like that bubble up.
(13:22):
It.
It does such a good job ofcompletely naturally giving you a
snapshot of here's who thisguy is just in a conversation he's
having with his partner.
Yeah.
And it doesn't feel forced,and it feels like.
I thought this show did a really.
For being so short, it didsuch a good job of letting these
things arise out of the situation.
(13:44):
What struck you about him?
That's probably not adirection I would have taken this
conversation for.
I think I'm looking more eagleBird's eye view.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was part of it.
Probably because he's reallyour point of view character.
(14:04):
The camera really pretty muchsticks with him.
Yeah.
Which I think is one of thosethings where it kind of undergirds
and, like, reinforces, like,okay, we're identifying with him,
but just.
Honestly, I think a lot of itwas like, it's a good.
It's a good episode.
It's an exciting episode.
(14:25):
There is even a little bit of,like, you know, because they're still
trying to find out, like, hey,where's the murder weapon?
You know, all this kind of stuff.
Walter's acting is like a guywith this doll swirling him like,
he's a good cop, He's a good detective.
He's.
It's.
Well, honestly, it kind offeels like.
And this is kudos to thewriters and actors that he's a real
person bringing the entiretyof his life circumstances to this
(14:49):
moment.
And I thought that was pretty astounding.
And.
And I think it's what.
You know, it's.
It's one of those things whereespecially the kind of, like, you
know, you have the Tell don't show.
And it's so easy to see when.
When Tell don't show is done badly.
But here we really had to likea little Tell a lot of show, and
it all feels very organic.
(15:11):
He does serve quite well asthe outsider, which is funny because.
A strange statement to makebecause everyone's been to school.
And even if you've never beenin a British school, school is school.
For the most part.
He's an outsider because we'venever been in a school like this.
Those of us who havegraduated, it's changed.
(15:31):
It's a different place.
And that's one of the motifsof the series.
Life is different.
Smartphones and the Internethas changed how we live and has changed
kids from what we know.
You know, he.
He says, as his son is.
Is helping him decipher theemoji hieroglyphics.
(15:54):
You know, he says, red pills.
And I thought this was great,because the detective is like.
Like the Matrix.
And it's very clear.
His son.
So he's thinking the Matrix.
It's very clear his son has noidea what the Matrix is.
Right.
They're just absolutelytalking past each other on this,
you know.
Yeah.
They do not get thereferences, or at least the sign
doesn't get the references ofwhere that comes from.
(16:16):
Yeah.
But it is a predominant way ofspeaking amongst his age.
Yeah.
So each episode, looking back,they are divided kind of into chapters,
these chunks.
Each chunk, kind of the fourmajor reasons of how we got here.
In a way, chapter one givesyou the arrest.
(16:36):
What that looks like, there'sno mystery.
They break that cliche laterin the episode.
The suspense goes out pretty quickly.
Which I thought was anastoundingly bold choice.
Yeah, it was.
Until.
And it worked.
Yes, until you see the rest ofthe chapters, you can say.
Yes, exactly.
Chapter two is how schoolaffects these young people and what
(17:00):
it may look like in some schools.
Chapter three, you get thishuge reveal that Jamie's a monster.
And we get the thesis of whatI think of this is the thesis of
the series.
And, you know, this is acertain realm of the Internet has
to be part of the blame.
(17:20):
Yeah.
And then.
Absolutely.
Go ahead and mention chapterfour here.
It's.
That cannot blame parents whoare doing a fairly decent job.
It's going to happen to anyone.
And it's unfair to try topoint a finger at one particular
thing.
There's no silver bullet.
It's.
Yeah, it's.
I mean, it is.
I don't want to be cliched andbe like, well, it's society that
(17:44):
did it.
But it's.
I think it kind of, at theend, at least, like, hints at, like,
hey, these parents, which Ithought was awesome.
Right.
Like, they weren't abusive,they loved him, they did the best
they could.
Worst thing they did was theygave him a computer and let him Follow
his own interests.
They had no idea.
Right.
What they were doing.
(18:04):
What are they supposed to do?
Yeah, Hang on to that.
Kid's gotta have a computer.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, hang on to that.
I don't have a lot to sayabout episode two.
I see I found it engaging andI see I did too, how necessary it
was.
I'm not even calling it a weakepisode at all.
I just think episode three andfour are the centerpieces.
(18:25):
They are.
You have to see these.
I was astounded, looking backat it, at how different each episode
is from each other.
That's right.
Like one is very differentfrom two, which is very different
from three, which I think is areally bold choice.
But.
Yeah, like one sets the situation.
Two, we were kind of like, theheat's turned on.
Right.
(18:45):
We see that the stew isstarting to boil.
And then three, for me was thestandout one standout episode.
This is the Emmy winner, ifyou want.
And then four did such a goodjob of not being anticlimactic but
not being at the same level ofintensity that three was in a way
that I think reallyunderscored the emotion of it.
(19:07):
To me.
I thought they were bothreally, really good.
And it brought you especiallyby the last episode.
I think I was impressed by howthere's not really a lot of stuff
wasted in this show.
Absolutely.
A lot of it comes home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Three.
Three was astounding.
Can't believe this kid's thisLiterally his first job.
Right.
(19:27):
He's never acted before.
Owen Cooper.
Wow.
Geez.
Yeah.
But he third episode is.
Is.
It's a two person episode.
There's two actors.
It's almost a three, a two man play.
And it felt very much like that.
Yeah.
So much so between Jamie anddetention and his psychologist who
(19:48):
has been sent to give heropinion on how he is and perhaps
even what got him to murderKatie, the girl that he murdered.
It's first episode film forthe series.
So like you said, makes it thefirst time Owen Cooper had ever been
on a set at all.
Incredible.
It's.
And it'll jar you.
But watching this episode andnot progressing the final one, I
(20:12):
noted that this was the climaxin a way that four or five acts of
a play had.
You know, how Breaking Badkind of did the.
I guess for the third season,I think it was kind of like this
is probably stretching it toomuch, but like everything is locked
into place, everything isdetermined now.
And now it's all just fallout.
(20:32):
This is the big why done it episode.
And everything of Everythingafter this, it just feels like fallout.
Yeah.
I would say that there's asubtle shift.
I mean, each chapter is notsubtly shifted, like you mentioned.
It can surprise you as to whatthey do differently with each set.
(20:53):
There's a subtle shift withinthe episode, and I think that there
are some misconstrued takes onit, though.
It's open for interpretation.
Just because something's openfor interpretation doesn't mean there
can be wrong analysis.
Sure.
For me, the shift is that theshow lets us know that it's moved
from examining youth kind ofgetting away from us to where they
(21:17):
go.
And in the case ofadolescents, it's the manosphere
for boys.
I wouldn't be surprised ifStephen Graham.
Sad.
He wanted to do a veryspecific takedown of that subculture
that ruins young boys if theycould get into it and unable to get
out.
Yeah.
And I think this is theepisode, like you said, we kind of
(21:38):
get a look under the hood.
And this is where I applaudOwen Cooper's acting so much because
it is.
It is unsettling.
It was unsettling to me towatch, especially the scenes where
he has a fit of rage.
Yeah.
And he's part of him.
You can see his little boyhaving a tantrum.
Yeah.
And part of him is.
You can see, like, he's.
He's.
And the therapist or thepsychologist, you know, she does
(22:01):
her job.
She doesn't give him anything.
But the way that he's like, Ican loom over you.
I can.
I can get too close to you.
Like, I'm.
I'm a man and you're a woman,and I.
That means that I can make you afraid.
Yes.
And that.
That mix of little boy tantrumand sophisticated evil, you know,
(22:21):
it's chilling.
And you think in parts, whathave these parents done to cause
him to end up like this?
Which is exactly what youshould think here, because it sets
up episode four.
Yeah.
Well, you're wondering, right.
Because another one of thethings that.
And it's done very well.
(22:42):
But the psychologist isasking, what do you.
You know, what is masculinity?
Basically?
Like, what does it mean to bea man?
What does it mean to be masculine?
And, you know, if your thoughtdoesn't go to.
You learn about that from your dad.
You know, it probably should.
Right.
But as we go on, we'relearning more about where he learned
about masculinity from.
And it's not in a big way.
It's not from his dad.
(23:03):
No.
At the start of the episode,you notice quickly Jamie's either
changed by his environment,he's showing more of himself, or
something else is a.
Is the matter.
He's more talkative.
He's less innocent.
Child crying for a parent to help.
And in a minute or two of hischatter with the psychologist Briony,
(23:25):
he gets really spiteful pretty quickly.
I'd seen some reviews andrecaps that talked about how.
Oh, thank goodness.
My.
You know, my first responsewas, oh, thank goodness he's more
talkative.
They have a rapport, but Isense that rage lurking right there.
(23:45):
And those opening couple ofminutes together.
He reads to me as he's probingfor weakness.
Yeah.
And, you know, he probablydoes this with many adults, but I
think it is significant thatthe psychologist is a woman and a
woman in somewhat of aposition of authority.
Oh, yeah.
(24:06):
You know, and.
And so, like, instantly, he's.
He's looking to see, like, can I.
Kids are good at this.
Sort of, like, kids are very emotional.
They're good at this sort of thing.
You know, it's You.
Sometimes they'll find thatone thing that just gets right under
your skin.
It's almost innate.
Yeah.
I don't even know in the realworld if some of the younger kids
(24:26):
know what they're doing.
They just know it works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what I.
That's.
I guess that's kind of what Imean when I said, like, they're.
They're kind of emo.
You know, it's like.
It's classical psychological reinforcement.
Right.
Like, if I do X, then Y happens.
Yeah.
You know, and that's.
And that's another.
Brought up something so greatthat I think this show asked, but
(24:48):
doesn't really.
And the psychologist asked,but, like, does Jamie.
What is his understanding ofwhat he did?
Mm.
And it's that mix ofchillingly, like, sophisticated,
like.
Of misogyny and.
And when I say sophisticated,I say.
I mean, it's coming from,like, an adult.
It's not coming from a placeof innocence.
(25:09):
I don't mean anythingcomplementary to it.
And.
And the mix of little boyinnocence and.
And crying and the way thosetwo are.
Are a terrible, terriblecombination because they make him
weak and.
And.
And primed for this kind ofideology in.
In a really powerful way, unfortunately.
Yeah.
There's a big clue in theepisode still on three here, Jamie
(25:32):
briefly mentions that his dadlooked away in seeming disappointment
at a soccer game of Jamie's.
He didn't yell.
He didn't seem angry.
The dad just looked away.
That's all.
It may have took for someonewho is more fragile or sensitive
like Jamie would have been atthat age.
Absolutely.
(25:53):
I think we've all hadexperiences like that.
Right.
Where you.
And as adults, we can reactpoorly and things can be pretty tough.
But as somebody who islearning who they are and their place
in the world.
Right.
Like to be.
To be like.
It's.
Why honestly, your parentssaying, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.
Why?
That is almost worse.
(26:14):
Right?
Yeah, it's that kind of.
Yeah.
The second clue he gives,these are small in comparison to
the time spent on them.
He mentions, Jamie mentionshe's more like his mom or perhaps
more in tune with her.
He doesn't really follow up onthis, but it angers him to know that
(26:34):
you get this feeling that itangers him that others can see this.
Like the girls who've made funof him, they might not know the direct
link that, oh, he's just likehis mom, but that boils in him.
Yeah.
He's a kid who wants to betough and callous and he's not.
Yes.
He's been told that's whatgets girls.
(26:55):
That's what works.
Yep.
Then the signs get creepier.
Explains to Brian, Nancydoctors that he asked out Katie long
before he killed her becauseshe was at her weakest having yes.
Sentence, topless photo.
And that got out and hethought he could get a yes out of
her in her moment of weakness.
(27:16):
And that's predator talk.
Mm.
These like, if you like.
I.
These like the way these isthe part of the manosphere like the
pickup artists, right?
Oh, right.
Yes.
Like, it's all about like.
Like how unhealthy.
Right.
Is this as a place to becoming from in forming like a good
and loving relationship to belike, I've got to trap some.
(27:37):
I've got to trap someone.
She's not going to want to bewith me and I have to, you know,
get her against her will.
And I have to be in thatposition of power.
Right.
Because you're weak.
I've seen you with your shirtoff, so.
Or a picture of you with yourshirt off.
So now I am in control.
How horrible.
It's so scary.
It reminds me of one of their strategies.
(27:58):
You insult them.
If they're not in a place ofweakness, you can insult them and
get them down to them.
Sure.
And they are quote unquotedrawn to you because they.
You have this power ofpointing out there what's bad about
a lady.
And that's.
(28:20):
Anyway.
And I gotta say, you know,we're talking about the content.
But the episode is so good atteasing this out.
Some of it's.
And just like the pacing ofthis episode is so good and so tense.
So, I mean, the content, Ithink, is what's really important
to talk about.
But just this whole subtext ofthis is this is being done masterfully.
(28:44):
Yeah.
It is a slower paced episodeand it is confined to this one room
that might hinder theentertainment value to some.
It didn't for me, nor for you.
I loved it.
Yeah.
Somewhere in there, though, hestands over her like you had mentioned.
You almost sense that he feelsthis is how men should treat women.
And when he makes that jump ather as he.
(29:08):
Yeah.
Is he standing there above herlike he might hit her or as if.
He'S gonna hurt her?
Yeah, man.
It makes viewers jump.
It's frightening and it'sunbelievable that Briony is able
to contain herself and that'shis all.
That little 40 seconds worthof scene is just as scary as a horrible
horror movie.
It's terrifying.
I read or looked at this scenefor the character Jamie.
(29:31):
As you know, like this toxicstew has been here.
But things like throwing achair and standing over a woman.
He's never done something likethat before.
So I thought Owen Cooperplayed him as a kid who's becoming
aware of his own power, so to speak.
Power to possibly hurt orintimidate others.
(29:55):
And, and, and it's.
It's like kind of seductive, right?
Like it makes you feel strong.
Yeah.
And his belittling of her.
Oh, you thought I was gonnahit you?
Look how scared you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's intense.
And, and, and it's.
I like him kind of likediscovering that kind of in real
time as you're watching it isreally chilling because it's like
(30:16):
this is kind of the.
The road he's walking right now.
Yep.
It's not good and it's not healthy.
What an ending to this episode.
Yeah.
She eventually gets him out of there.
He has to leave anyway at.
At some point.
But she cries, gathersherself, and you get this returning
sound of an ac.
(30:37):
Almost as if it's ever loomingpresence of hate there.
There's.
There's a huge sense too, thatladies feel this way and have to
deal with this shit so muchand do this.
This is like the privatemoment that maybe I was unaware of
here, that ladies have to.
Okay, I've got to gathermyself before I go to see what to
(30:58):
do.
Whatever's next.
Yeah.
And it's a stereotype, right,that women are too emotional or whatever
misogynistic stereotype.
And I think I really liked itbecause the psychologist had to be
in complete control of herselfin an utterly exhausting situation.
And we see.
Not we.
(31:19):
We see a young man who'scompletely out of control emotionally.
And like you said, she.
It's like.
It's almost like she times herself.
She has the moment where shecries for.
For Jamie.
I think there's actually I.
In her performance.
Maybe I'm reading too muchinto it, but I love the actors.
And I think there's.
There's crying for Jamie, forthe emotions in the room, and then
(31:42):
she's like, well, that's.
That got to go.
And Jamie gets to just bepissed off the rest of his life and
she doesn't.
As he screams outside of theroom and bangs on the window.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
He.
He's out of.
It's the.
This.
Is this the stuff that he'sbeing infested with?
It's.
It's really.
(32:03):
It's out of control.
Brian E.
Is played by Aaron daughter Dorothy.
Dorothy, Something like that.
Very good.
The psychologist who.
Whom we've been calling Briony.
A little extra note here.
One more extra note.
That guard constantly hoveringover Brianny is just a reminder of
what Jamie believes.
This guy inches closer andcloser to her harassment every second.
(32:26):
And he's not even on screenthat long.
He's, I guess, foreshadowingwhat Jamie's gonna really put into
motion with his conversation.
He is absolutely.
What a creep.
Yeah, Yeah, I know.
It's like she's.
She's got to do this and shehas to put up, you know, she's got
to have this interview withJamie and she's got to put up with
(32:49):
all this.
Exactly.
We got a Great comment from 87Jetta when we discussed the first
episode of Adolescence.
I'll.
I'll read it word for word.
It's so good.
Yeah.
I don't think he would mind.
So as to avoid any spoilers, Iwon't get into any detail in discussing
adolescence, buddy.
It's powerful.
(33:09):
I represented juveniledefendants in criminal cases for
several years, and now I'm onthe prosecution side, and the very
nature of the job requirescontending with some very disturbing
things.
Watching the seriesreinforced, at least for me, that
no matter how long and howoften you're exposed to such awfulness,
you never become completelyused to it.
(33:30):
Stephen Graham's acting in theseries is incredible, particularly
in the fourth episode, and Ithink that sets up us to get there.
I think I would Agree.
Especially with the end ofthat, with all of it.
But especially the commentabout Stephen Graham's acting and
the way that he is really thelinchpin of the fourth episode.
Yeah.
(33:50):
And some of the first, even on.
Occasion, some of the first.
Well, you know, I loved you.
This is kind of what I said with.
I feel like there's notnothing goes to waste.
Like stuff that happened inthe first episode informs this last
episode.
So even though everything isso different, it feels like a very
natural place for this show to be.
(34:11):
A smart way to book in theseries, man.
Episode four was a gut punchthat ripped my heart out.
I can't fathom being a kid inthe Internet age.
Yeah, that's going to be a bigdisconnect for people of my era and
before to trying to dig intowhat it may be like to be young with
(34:38):
a smartphone or the Internetso nearby.
I, I can't imagine growing upwith a smartphone because like, you
know, I think every kidencounter, you know, just in books
or whatever, like stuff that'smaybe a little bit inappropriate
or, you know, you're just not.
It's too adult in the sensethat like you just haven't had the
life experience to deal with it.
(34:59):
But just like the, the easyavailability of just really toxic
stuff and, and not only that,but the way it's being reinforced
in the real world with thesepeople who would, you know, they're,
they're, they're making money,they seem successful, they run countries.
You know, like it's real.
It just seems real.
(35:20):
Like I know, I know everygeneration feels like this and there
is, I think we over idolizethe innocence of youth because you
kid.
We all know kids are, we allgrew up with.
Kids aren't innocent.
They.
They wail on each other likeeveryone else.
But it is kind of.
You're kind of havingsomething being stolen from you,
I think.
Yeah, that's a good way ofputting it.
(35:40):
Part it is.
I don't want to go like so faras to say, but you're kind of having
childhood stolen from you.
You're 13.
You should not be thinkingabout, you know, it's just like the,
like the joke in the school, right?
Like, isn't every 13 year oldinvoluntarily celibate?
Like you're 13.
This shouldn't be the way thatyou're learning to interact with
people.
Yeah, I think I was stillplaying with GI Joes at 13.
(36:03):
Oh, I for sure was.
Yeah.
I wept like a baby for episodefour for.
On a few different Levels.
I felt so sorry for Eddie andhis wife, Manda and Lisa, their daughter.
But I imagine every singleparent believes they could have done
more.
Yeah, Anytime there's a littleor big mistake made by the kids,
(36:26):
every parent has to think thathere they weren't even close to being
bad parents.
Not in the least.
Yet there's that moment whereEddie brings up this idea that I
needed to toughen him up.
And it's a worry.
He doesn't say it quite likethis, but it's a worry.
He needs to be just a little tougher.
I was scared for him.
(36:47):
My dad felt the same way about me.
Very similar scenario here.
Instead of sports, even I andthe character Jamie prefer to draw.
And we're both good at it.
So same as Jamie there.
It's why I believe that thisshit can happen so much more easily
in the Internet age.
The wrong rabbit hole.
(37:08):
Yeah.
Your kids lost.
It's why I'm thankful I didn'tgrow up with the Internet.
Very similar things.
That could have been me buyinginto the manosphere.
And I'd like to think that Iwould have found it repulsive.
I.
Those thoughts, thosemisogynistic thoughts certainly existed
before the Internet.
I could hear guys say this orthat kind of degrading and very sexual
(37:32):
about girls.
And I would just think tomyself, this sounds bad.
This does not sound good.
I, I was repulsed by it.
And I, I did when I was atthat age and of Jamie and similar
thoughts were espoused by a queen.
It says felt icky.
Yeah.
A wrong turn or two or a longtime with the Internet, which wasn't
possible in 1986.
(37:53):
Who knows?
Yeah, I'll agree with you.
You know, like the, the.
His poor parents are blindsided.
They had no idea that any ofthis was in their kid.
This final chapter is aboutparents, obviously, but it was about
parenting.
It's a delicate job.
You're gonna it up.
But you can amend some of thisup easily.
(38:16):
I think in many cases too.
If he could, you know, ifEddie maybe recognize that in the
moment or a day or two later,there could have been a bit of emendation.
How much?
Hard to say.
It's not the fault of Eddieand his wife.
I, I thought Stephen Graham'sacting was pretty astounding.
(38:38):
This episode especially, youknow, because, you know, it was.
It's kind of brought up in thefirst one, like classic.
Oh, what did the father did to him?
Do to him?
And we, we learn from, as wewatch Steven go, that like, yeah,
he.
He's Angry, he's at a boiling point.
There's a lot of frustration there.
Never at any point does hefeel like he's a danger to his family.
(39:01):
At no point does he feel, youknow, there's, there's disagreement.
It's never scary like that.
And I thought that was soimpressive to, to have that as kind
of the context for what you'rethe subtext, I guess, for what you're
seeing.
Nice to also have thecharacter of Lisa who demonstrates
for us that she's fine, she'snormal and maybe even better than
(39:26):
fine.
She's probably quite a great kid.
Her poor parents, you know,ask, how did we make her?
And the answer is, you know,she answers the.
Jamie's mother, who's, who's Manda?
Is it Manda?
Manda.
No.
I'm forgetting everything.
Yeah.
Amanda answers back the sameway we made him.
You know, it was one of manyjust deeply sad moments.
(39:52):
Very much the final scenewhere Eddie kisses the bunny, tucks
it in, says to it as if it isJamie, he's sorry.
He's probably a very largepercentage of every father.
It's gut wrenching and kudosto the show, to Stephen Graham, to
those that put it together.
This is a show people need tosee at the people like me who know
(40:16):
of these problems but justneed this emotional story to reinforce
how much care it's going totake, how much attention it might
take.
Yeah, you're right.
Because, you know, these,these parents, you know, he's like,
oh, I started working more.
She's like, yeah, but youknow, he'd still come home and just
run to his room, which is likekind of a normal thing for kids to
(40:40):
do.
Right.
But they're, now they'reblaming themselves for, well, we
should have forced them tocome down and whatever.
And I don't, I don't thinkthey necessarily had like a right
choice.
I don't think so.
I mean, the right choice isdon't let your kid on the Internet
or have a smartphone.
But that's not practical,especially in today's day and age
when you need it for you atevery level.
(41:01):
You need it for schoolwork.
I would argue, if I can pushup against that, I would argue you'd
need the computer, you don'tneed the phone.
Well, I would agree with that too.
The smartphone is, is a toymore often than not.
Dr.
Jonathan Haight released thebook, what was it last year?
The Anxious Generation.
Yep.
It makes some prettycompelling arguments.
(41:23):
It makes great arguments.
I don't know why he caughtFlack, I guess because the way the
Internet and debate isstructured is that you have to disagree
somewhere.
You have to examine the thesisby turning over that rock and seeing
(41:43):
what's underneath and what he missed.
I think his argument is excellent.
I think his big point ofimprovement across the nation is
to hold out until they're 16for a smartphone.
Nothing wrong with a phone.
And I'm getting into policy here.
But it goes well with this show.
You know, the, this is afinger pointing series at the manosphere.
(42:10):
Manosphere.
And it's ilk for sure.
It is an examination of whatcan happen to our boys.
Not.
And you know, some peopleonline would say I wanted to know
more about Katie.
That deserves its own set ofepisodes and Absolutely.
Series.
I do think that they did a very.
(42:31):
This is that Katie was neverjust a victim.
Right.
That we start getting apicture of her.
But yeah, I mean this show is,is looking.
It's, it's not.
This is going to soundhorrible to say, but in a sense it's
not Katie's story because it'sa story of how could someone do this
(42:51):
horrible thing.
And Katie's story deserves tobe told.
Yeah.
And should be told.
But this story isunfortunately a story about what
happens when you treat peopleas a means and not an end of themselves.
Right.
And, and, and, and, and whathappened with this kid.
(43:11):
And it was horrible.
What happens when you treatthem like objects as well.
Yep, exactly.
Yeah.
It's very gender specific herefor the young guys and what they've
been taught or perhaps pickedup on about being quote unquote,
eight man.
Yeah, I, I think it had to bemade and I'm very glad.
(43:32):
I didn't know that it had tobe made until I watched it.
And I'm very glad I've seen it.
I, I think another thing thatI thought was, was very good is in
that last episode with.
And you do have kind ofJamie's anxiety about being a man
in his dad's eyes.
And then his dad admits likehe was so bad at soccer, I literally
(43:53):
couldn't watch it.
But then, you know, likebrings up his drawing and this really
like sweet, sensitive side of Jamie.
Right.
Like he was so proud of hisson for sitting down there and drawing.
And I really liked how allthis kind of together was like, if
you're a young sensitive kidwho's getting your brain baked in
this stuff, it makes you hateand kill parts of yourself.
(44:17):
The part of Jamie that satdown at that kitchen table and drove,
that drew those monsters, he'sbeing told is weakness.
Right.
He's not really a man.
He's weak.
And it makes you kill thesereally, really good and important
and parts of.
Parts of yourself.
And of course, it hurts otherpeople as well too.
Yeah.
I know.
(44:37):
Because I killed that part ofmyself for many years until I had
a daughter of my own and Istarted drawing again for her.
I think there's.
There's, you know, just the.
The world we live in.
There's probably every singleone of us out there is.
Is gonna be like.
This idea of masculinity mademe feel like I couldn't do X or I
couldn't be Y because it's.
(44:59):
It's an ideal.
It's made up.
Nobody can do that.
I'm totally glad I hadsomeone, a couple of someones to
fall back on and who helped mesee that's not 100% true.
Tough.
Tough watch.
But vital.
I thought that.
I thought adolescence was great.
And it really.
(45:20):
It really got the tears out of me.
I can see why.
Because that last episode is gutting.
Yep.
Absolutely gutting.
As a parent, brace yourself as a.
If you're a guy.
And maybe on the sensitiveside, brace yourself.
You need.
Yeah.
But it's worth was very good.
(45:41):
Honestly.
One of the things that.
They could have done this for10 episodes if they wanted to.
I was kind of amazed at theeconomy of it.
Right.
It really felt like theydidn't get greedy.
They knew exactly what theywanted to do to portray, and that's
what they portrayed.
That's right.
Smart move.
I think of picking the.
The four chapters that.
(46:02):
Yes.
Give you this and leave therest to ambiguity.
Yeah.
There's still a lot that's notdirectly said, but you can kind of
figure it out.
Oh, yeah.
It's suggested, you know, more than.
More than said.
And that's good.
There's.
There's a lot of loose endsthat were never wrapped up.
And I think that's finebecause that's life, right?
Yeah, it is.
(46:22):
Life isn't a story.
Not to maybe end on a louder note.
Did you.
How many.
How many times did you usecaptions for this one?
Oh, I did.
The whole time.
Yeah.
I'm at the age where somethinglike a British accent.
If they're speaking quickly, I can't.
And then he.
This is too, like.
They've got more of like anorthern accent.
Huh.
(46:43):
Which is.
So I'm like, subtitles, It'llhelp me out.
I did want to be clear onabout four or five scenes in this
last one.
So I would rewind it for 30seconds and then double check what
I heard.
I'm glad I did.
Subtitles on I'm very glad I did.
Yeah.
I think that brings us to theend of our podcast episode and we
(47:04):
will be back next Tuesday.
We do have an upcoming break,the Tuesday after Easter.
Okay.
So just heads up there.
Once again, if you have it inyou, we appreciate help with donations,
specifically website andpodcast hosting and improvement.
Cost a little money.
If you'd like to do that.
It's wonderful.
Head to the Alabama take,click on donations or just click
(47:27):
in our show notes eachTuesday, or if we release one on
Thursday, which can happenevery now and again if you do that.
Thank you very much for Adamand Donovan.
I'm Blaine, and we hope thatyou love yourself.
Thanks very much.
Hey y'all.
We are one of the podcasts forthe Alabama Take.
We are called Taking it Down.
We cover TV streaming, moviesthat might be streaming.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're really probably one ofthe best podcasts ever.
Just if you're new to us now,you know, and we're grounded right
(00:22):
here in the middle of theworking class watching people think
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So as podcasting goes, we feellike we do a really good job and
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But there are cost withhosting podcasts, creating a site,
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having the right microphone,and simple things like that that
(00:44):
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And the podcast family, anyamount really does help a ton and
we thank you for that.
(01:05):
This is a Thursday episode.
We don't do a lot of Thursdayepisodes, but lately we have done
a couple because they seemwarranted to give a more thorough
discussion about the topic.
This week we'll start thefirst half like always.
It will be no spoilers.
You can listen to it anytime.
And then when you reach thespoiler half, you can come back later
(01:28):
or listen on through if you'recaught up on what we're talking about.
And this week it'sAdolescence, the four episode miniseries
on Netflix.
Little intense this week.
If you've seen the show, youknow why.
But we did feel like this showdeserved its own focus.
With me, today is going to be Donovan.
No, Adam, this Thursday.
(01:49):
Donovan and I will get intothings very soon.
If you need time steps to helpyou navigate what to hear and what
not to hear.
We put those in there for youto help you out.
So look for those.
They're usable on any platformthese days.
So let me get Donovan in here.
(02:10):
Okay, it is me, just like Isaid before, I'm Blaine and it's
Donovan with me.
And there is no Adam as hehasn't seen adolescence.
All of our focus and attentionon this podcast episode is about
the four episode miniseries onNetflix made by Stephen Graham.
You may know him.
(02:31):
He's played the father in themost recent adaptation of Matilda
on Netflix.
He was once the young AlCapone on Boardwalk Empire on hbo.
He is an actor on Peaky Blinders.
I have not seen that show, butI know it's very popular and people
love it.
You may know him from those.
But he has put this together.
It's.
(02:51):
I get the sense that I'm speculating.
I get the sense it's kind of his.
His baby, his labor of love.
I thought this was reallyinteresting based on where it all
goes.
I was reading, like, he.
His initial idea for it waswhen he wanted there to be like a.
Like, it's a troubled kid who.
(03:11):
Who gets into a bad situation,but it's not.
It's not the fault of theparents or the family, and they're.
They're navigating it, too.
That's really all we'reprobably going to focus on.
Donovan.
Sometimes I bring shows to youguys here that you haven't seen or
we talk, maybe general things.
Any television that's caughtyour attention.
(03:32):
Does rewatching 30 Rock whileI eat supper count?
Is that what you've been doing?
Yeah.
It's a classic, right?
It is a classic.
Like, where does it rank foryou among Arrested Development, King
of the Hill, and perhaps someothers that you have high esteem
for?
Probably between, like, those two.
(03:52):
It's.
It's number three.
It's not one or two, becauseit didn't.
It wasn't strong the whole waythrough in a way that the first three
seasons of ArrestedDevelopment were.
But it is also.
It's just like.
It's so.
It's got just such, like, itsown goofy brand of humor.
Like, you can't help but notbe like.
Like, amused by it.
Does It's Always Sunny inPhiladelphia go in that range as
(04:16):
well?
Is that.
I know.
That's almost like.
That's almost like anothertype of.
I don't know.
It is fantastic.
Like, those shows are doingone thing, and then you've got over
Sonny here, right?
Like, with the episode thatCharlie's trying to, like, pass the
inspection in the bar, andFrank keeps flushing his clothes
down the toilet, and he'slike, I'm painting a shirt, Charlie.
(04:37):
Like, that's a completelyother realm of joke.
It is absurd in the.
It's so good in the dumbestkind of way.
It has, like.
It has a different.
There's like a wordplay anabsurdity level to 30 rock that is
like a conversationalabsurdity, but also a worldly absurdity
(04:58):
that, like, Sunny both doesand doesn't have.
Where it's not that it's notvisually or visually funny.
It's not that it's notverbally clever.
It's not the same thing.
And the Absurdity is somehowkind of more grounded in its own
weird way.
Except also it's not groundedat all.
Yeah, it's good we get achance to open the floor of some
(05:21):
of our favorite comediesbecause we're about to get into the
show adolescence.
Before we reach spoilers,though, I would.
I was thinking about the audience.
If anyone hasn't seen this orit didn't get a lot of focus, but
the focus it got from criticswas they were floored by how great
it was.
That was the sense I got.
As was I.
(05:42):
After watching all of it.
The audience, I think is.
Is going to be.
It just feels like a mustwatch for parents and it feels like
a good watch for anyone whoenjoys well made television and who
also likes an occasional pieceof work to.
To have an intensity to it andto ask profoundly deep and sad questions.
(06:08):
Mm.
Netflix's Can Numbers Can Be Believed.
Damn near all of you have already.
Watched this is it in one ofthe rankings where they give you
the.
Apparently they're saying it's been.
It's a.
It's been a big.
It's been streamed more thanStranger Things like the season one,
I think.
Yeah.
I was.
Thanks to the editors of theGuardian who let me look all this
(06:29):
stuff up quickly.
That's intense.
That's a big show for them.
Also, if you want to know, itis a British drama.
Four episodes only.
Most of those run right aroundthe 52 hour mark.
That's about all you reallywant to know going in.
Yeah, I'd say so.
(06:51):
I think that most people.
And you mentioned this thelast Thursday episode we did that
most people going in knowsthat it is.
Each episode is one shot withno edits for the scenes.
Yes.
I think while we're still in.
I think this is spoiler freefor me to say, but you know, I kind
of questioned my first timeanytime I see that is, you know.
(07:13):
You know, if you havesomething really cool and technical
like that, it's like, okay, isit necessary or is it just like a
sort of like weird flex, right.
Like where the guy's justlike, like doing something like masochistic
just to show that they.
They can.
Right.
And I'll say for my.
My summary that not only was I.
(07:33):
I thought that it was usefulor as.
As under something thatunderpins and undergirds the show.
I was fascinated by over thecourse of four episodes, the, the
different ways that a singleshot is.
Is used.
It's not.
They're all very different.
Which I thought was really,really interesting.
(07:54):
I agree with that, the oneshot technique used for each episode
is not bombast.
I think it kind of fits thisstory and there is a little ambiguity
as to how it fits the story.
So you can interpret that.
I think with.
We might get into some ofthose ideas after the spoiler align
(08:15):
today.
What I liked about it was Ithink it's kind of like what you
just said, Blaine, where thereare honestly at points in these.
I mean, obviously you're like,oh, this is single shot.
This is.
This is so technically impressive.
But there are honestly momentswhere it's serving the show so well
that you kind of like, oh,right, it is a single shot.
(08:37):
That's right.
It doesn't bring attention toitself, which is seems crazy to say
because it's a really, youknow, when it's a really flashy technique.
Right.
If you were.
Or it can be, you know, evenhow Alfred Hitchcock couldn't really
get it right.
But here, you know it, there'ssome great moments where it's like,
yeah, this is a single shot,isn't it?
Holy smokes.
I wasn't even thinking about that.
(08:58):
Or some whales.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yep.
We're dancing a little, so wemight as well get into spoilers.
What we'll do is we'll take aquick little break.
30 seconds.
If you've seen all episodes ofAdolescence, you will not be surprised
in spoiler.
Now, if you're not averse tospoilers, then listen on.
(09:18):
But just a heads up, I'd watch.
If I may advise you, dear,dear listener, I'm usually like,
I don't really care that muchabout spoilers.
I would advise you, it's notspoilers necessarily.
It's like, don't go in withwhat we thought about it.
You watch it for yourself and then.
And then come and listen towhatever we have to say.
(09:39):
But watch it for yourself.
Less spoilers, more impact.
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
All right, I'll see you in 30 seconds.
Do you love music?
Do you want to explore classic albums?
If you answered yes, thencheck out Polyphonic Press.
I'm Jeremy and along with myco host John, we rely on the patented
(10:01):
Random Album generator to pickan album for us to review at the
top of each show.
We have no idea what albumwe're going to be listening to.
That's what keeps it really exciting.
We dig real deep into these albums.
So if this sounds interesting,come along with us on this journey
because you never know whatyou might find.
We release a new episode everyTuesday morning.
(10:24):
That's Polyphonic Press.
And we're available on everypodcast platform form.
So we did begin a shortdiscussion about adolescence on Netflix
a few weeks ago, probablyabout two weeks ago.
And a standalone episode ofour podcast that's a rare Thursday
release.
Nothing special.
It's just an extra episode for us.
Donovan and I only discussedthe first episode as we were gauging
(10:47):
the critical hype here.
We're gonna pick up withepisode two and go all the way until
the end of the four part series.
So if you want to save thissection until you've seen the whole
batch, that's much advised.
So Donovan, we're going topick up a little with the second
episode.
Yeah.
These are all one shot.
And this episode is all in a school.
(11:09):
Yep.
And it looked terrifying.
Bone shaking.
Frightening.
For me as a teacher andcertainly for me looking back as
a kid, it's so.
It's so good because itcompletely undergirds when the detective
inspector.
I think it's detective inspection.
Detective sergeant.
The two police officers, like, they're.
They're sitting there justlike, I hate this place.
(11:32):
Yeah.
I hate what it reminds me of.
And you can see, like they dosuch a good job of like it's kids
not playing.
Paying attention.
It's like, you know, it'sboring classes.
It's, you know, it's.
It's all.
It's like a pressure cookerfor, you know, teachers who aren't
qualified to teach.
In this case with the history teacher.
Right.
Like he just kind of walksaround and doesn't.
It's the kind of thing you'relike, I'm so GLAD I'm not 17 anymore.
(11:55):
Absolutely.
It drove that home.
The rampant disrespect, thelack of kindness you saw from many
people here.
I know.
It happens.
I'm lucky that I don't work inan environment like that.
I don't know how you could.
I don't know how I could.
Y'all that are teachers and goto school every day.
(12:19):
I don't know how y'all do it.
Well.
And I.
Mine's much easier than that display.
Yeah.
I just.
And I love.
So this is something I learnedtoday too.
I'm gonna look up his name.
The guy who plays BascomDetective's bester at Bascombe.
Ashley Walters.
Yes.
He was planning to quit actingand go into directing.
He wasn't gonna.
(12:40):
And they talked him back intoit for this.
He's central to this episode.
Yeah.
As the.
What a great.
I.
I think works so well.
And I kind of tried to alludeto it last week.
And I don't.
I don't know.
I don't have a good way to sayit, but we.
We have so little time withthis character.
In fact, this is the last timewe're gonna see this character for
(13:00):
this whole series.
Huh.
This is it.
The show.
And the plot just does such agood job of.
Instead of him, like, say,like, here's who I am and here's
how I feel by the.
The environment that he'sencountering by the.
And the way that he reacts tothe environment of the school.
And.
And, like, memories and fearsand things like that bubble up.
(13:22):
It.
It does such a good job ofcompletely naturally giving you a
snapshot of here's who thisguy is just in a conversation he's
having with his partner.
Yeah.
And it doesn't feel forced,and it feels like.
I thought this show did a really.
For being so short, it didsuch a good job of letting these
things arise out of the situation.
(13:44):
What struck you about him?
That's probably not adirection I would have taken this
conversation for.
I think I'm looking more eagleBird's eye view.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was part of it.
Probably because he's reallyour point of view character.
(14:04):
The camera really pretty muchsticks with him.
Yeah.
Which I think is one of thosethings where it kind of undergirds
and, like, reinforces, like,okay, we're identifying with him,
but just.
Honestly, I think a lot of itwas like, it's a good.
It's a good episode.
It's an exciting episode.
(14:25):
There is even a little bit of,like, you know, because they're still
trying to find out, like, hey,where's the murder weapon?
You know, all this kind of stuff.
Walter's acting is like a guywith this doll swirling him like,
he's a good cop, He's a good detective.
He's.
It's.
Well, honestly, it kind offeels like.
And this is kudos to thewriters and actors that he's a real
person bringing the entiretyof his life circumstances to this
(14:49):
moment.
And I thought that was pretty astounding.
And.
And I think it's what.
You know, it's.
It's one of those things whereespecially the kind of, like, you
know, you have the Tell don't show.
And it's so easy to see when.
When Tell don't show is done badly.
But here we really had to likea little Tell a lot of show, and
it all feels very organic.
(15:11):
He does serve quite well asthe outsider, which is funny because.
A strange statement to makebecause everyone's been to school.
And even if you've never beenin a British school, school is school.
For the most part.
He's an outsider because we'venever been in a school like this.
Those of us who havegraduated, it's changed.
(15:31):
It's a different place.
And that's one of the motifsof the series.
Life is different.
Smartphones and the Internethas changed how we live and has changed
kids from what we know.
You know, he.
He says, as his son is.
Is helping him decipher theemoji hieroglyphics.
(15:54):
You know, he says, red pills.
And I thought this was great,because the detective is like.
Like the Matrix.
And it's very clear.
His son.
So he's thinking the Matrix.
It's very clear his son has noidea what the Matrix is.
Right.
They're just absolutelytalking past each other on this,
you know.
Yeah.
They do not get thereferences, or at least the sign
doesn't get the references ofwhere that comes from.
(16:16):
Yeah.
But it is a predominant way ofspeaking amongst his age.
Yeah.
So each episode, looking back,they are divided kind of into chapters,
these chunks.
Each chunk, kind of the fourmajor reasons of how we got here.
In a way, chapter one givesyou the arrest.
(16:36):
What that looks like, there'sno mystery.
They break that cliche laterin the episode.
The suspense goes out pretty quickly.
Which I thought was anastoundingly bold choice.
Yeah, it was.
Until.
And it worked.
Yes, until you see the rest ofthe chapters, you can say.
Yes, exactly.
Chapter two is how schoolaffects these young people and what
(17:00):
it may look like in some schools.
Chapter three, you get thishuge reveal that Jamie's a monster.
And we get the thesis of whatI think of this is the thesis of
the series.
And, you know, this is acertain realm of the Internet has
to be part of the blame.
(17:20):
Yeah.
And then.
Absolutely.
Go ahead and mention chapterfour here.
It's.
That cannot blame parents whoare doing a fairly decent job.
It's going to happen to anyone.
And it's unfair to try topoint a finger at one particular
thing.
There's no silver bullet.
It's.
Yeah, it's.
I mean, it is.
I don't want to be cliched andbe like, well, it's society that
(17:44):
did it.
But it's.
I think it kind of, at theend, at least, like, hints at, like,
hey, these parents, which Ithought was awesome.
Right.
Like, they weren't abusive,they loved him, they did the best
they could.
Worst thing they did was theygave him a computer and let him Follow
his own interests.
They had no idea.
Right.
What they were doing.
(18:04):
What are they supposed to do?
Yeah, Hang on to that.
Kid's gotta have a computer.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, hang on to that.
I don't have a lot to sayabout episode two.
I see I found it engaging andI see I did too, how necessary it
was.
I'm not even calling it a weakepisode at all.
I just think episode three andfour are the centerpieces.
(18:25):
They are.
You have to see these.
I was astounded, looking backat it, at how different each episode
is from each other.
That's right.
Like one is very differentfrom two, which is very different
from three, which I think is areally bold choice.
But.
Yeah, like one sets the situation.
Two, we were kind of like, theheat's turned on.
Right.
(18:45):
We see that the stew isstarting to boil.
And then three, for me was thestandout one standout episode.
This is the Emmy winner, ifyou want.
And then four did such a goodjob of not being anticlimactic but
not being at the same level ofintensity that three was in a way
that I think reallyunderscored the emotion of it.
(19:07):
To me.
I thought they were bothreally, really good.
And it brought you especiallyby the last episode.
I think I was impressed by howthere's not really a lot of stuff
wasted in this show.
Absolutely.
A lot of it comes home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Three.
Three was astounding.
Can't believe this kid's thisLiterally his first job.
Right.
(19:27):
He's never acted before.
Owen Cooper.
Wow.
Geez.
Yeah.
But he third episode is.
Is.
It's a two person episode.
There's two actors.
It's almost a three, a two man play.
And it felt very much like that.
Yeah.
So much so between Jamie anddetention and his psychologist who
(19:48):
has been sent to give heropinion on how he is and perhaps
even what got him to murderKatie, the girl that he murdered.
It's first episode film forthe series.
So like you said, makes it thefirst time Owen Cooper had ever been
on a set at all.
Incredible.
It's.
And it'll jar you.
But watching this episode andnot progressing the final one, I
(20:12):
noted that this was the climaxin a way that four or five acts of
a play had.
You know, how Breaking Badkind of did the.
I guess for the third season,I think it was kind of like this
is probably stretching it toomuch, but like everything is locked
into place, everything isdetermined now.
And now it's all just fallout.
(20:32):
This is the big why done it episode.
And everything of Everythingafter this, it just feels like fallout.
Yeah.
I would say that there's asubtle shift.
I mean, each chapter is notsubtly shifted, like you mentioned.
It can surprise you as to whatthey do differently with each set.
(20:53):
There's a subtle shift withinthe episode, and I think that there
are some misconstrued takes onit, though.
It's open for interpretation.
Just because something's openfor interpretation doesn't mean there
can be wrong analysis.
Sure.
For me, the shift is that theshow lets us know that it's moved
from examining youth kind ofgetting away from us to where they
(21:17):
go.
And in the case ofadolescents, it's the manosphere
for boys.
I wouldn't be surprised ifStephen Graham.
Sad.
He wanted to do a veryspecific takedown of that subculture
that ruins young boys if theycould get into it and unable to get
out.
Yeah.
And I think this is theepisode, like you said, we kind of
(21:38):
get a look under the hood.
And this is where I applaudOwen Cooper's acting so much because
it is.
It is unsettling.
It was unsettling to me towatch, especially the scenes where
he has a fit of rage.
Yeah.
And he's part of him.
You can see his little boyhaving a tantrum.
Yeah.
And part of him is.
You can see, like, he's.
He's.
And the therapist or thepsychologist, you know, she does
(22:01):
her job.
She doesn't give him anything.
But the way that he's like, Ican loom over you.
I can.
I can get too close to you.
Like, I'm.
I'm a man and you're a woman,and I.
That means that I can make you afraid.
Yes.
And that.
That mix of little boy tantrumand sophisticated evil, you know,
(22:21):
it's chilling.
And you think in parts, whathave these parents done to cause
him to end up like this?
Which is exactly what youshould think here, because it sets
up episode four.
Yeah.
Well, you're wondering, right.
Because another one of thethings that.
And it's done very well.
(22:42):
But the psychologist isasking, what do you.
You know, what is masculinity?
Basically?
Like, what does it mean to bea man?
What does it mean to be masculine?
And, you know, if your thoughtdoesn't go to.
You learn about that from your dad.
You know, it probably should.
Right.
But as we go on, we'relearning more about where he learned
about masculinity from.
And it's not in a big way.
It's not from his dad.
(23:03):
No.
At the start of the episode,you notice quickly Jamie's either
changed by his environment,he's showing more of himself, or
something else is a.
Is the matter.
He's more talkative.
He's less innocent.
Child crying for a parent to help.
And in a minute or two of hischatter with the psychologist Briony,
(23:25):
he gets really spiteful pretty quickly.
I'd seen some reviews andrecaps that talked about how.
Oh, thank goodness.
My.
You know, my first responsewas, oh, thank goodness he's more
talkative.
They have a rapport, but Isense that rage lurking right there.
(23:45):
And those opening couple ofminutes together.
He reads to me as he's probingfor weakness.
Yeah.
And, you know, he probablydoes this with many adults, but I
think it is significant thatthe psychologist is a woman and a
woman in somewhat of aposition of authority.
Oh, yeah.
(24:06):
You know, and.
And so, like, instantly, he's.
He's looking to see, like, can I.
Kids are good at this.
Sort of, like, kids are very emotional.
They're good at this sort of thing.
You know, it's You.
Sometimes they'll find thatone thing that just gets right under
your skin.
It's almost innate.
Yeah.
I don't even know in the realworld if some of the younger kids
(24:26):
know what they're doing.
They just know it works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what I.
That's.
I guess that's kind of what Imean when I said, like, they're.
They're kind of emo.
You know, it's like.
It's classical psychological reinforcement.
Right.
Like, if I do X, then Y happens.
Yeah.
You know, and that's.
And that's another.
Brought up something so greatthat I think this show asked, but
(24:48):
doesn't really.
And the psychologist asked,but, like, does Jamie.
What is his understanding ofwhat he did?
Mm.
And it's that mix ofchillingly, like, sophisticated,
like.
Of misogyny and.
And when I say sophisticated,I say.
I mean, it's coming from,like, an adult.
It's not coming from a placeof innocence.
(25:09):
I don't mean anythingcomplementary to it.
And.
And the mix of little boyinnocence and.
And crying and the way thosetwo are.
Are a terrible, terriblecombination because they make him
weak and.
And.
And primed for this kind ofideology in.
In a really powerful way, unfortunately.
Yeah.
There's a big clue in theepisode still on three here, Jamie
(25:32):
briefly mentions that his dadlooked away in seeming disappointment
at a soccer game of Jamie's.
He didn't yell.
He didn't seem angry.
The dad just looked away.
That's all.
It may have took for someonewho is more fragile or sensitive
like Jamie would have been atthat age.
Absolutely.
(25:53):
I think we've all hadexperiences like that.
Right.
Where you.
And as adults, we can reactpoorly and things can be pretty tough.
But as somebody who islearning who they are and their place
in the world.
Right.
Like to be.
To be like.
It's.
Why honestly, your parentssaying, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.
Why?
That is almost worse.
(26:14):
Right?
Yeah, it's that kind of.
Yeah.
The second clue he gives,these are small in comparison to
the time spent on them.
He mentions, Jamie mentionshe's more like his mom or perhaps
more in tune with her.
He doesn't really follow up onthis, but it angers him to know that
(26:34):
you get this feeling that itangers him that others can see this.
Like the girls who've made funof him, they might not know the direct
link that, oh, he's just likehis mom, but that boils in him.
Yeah.
He's a kid who wants to betough and callous and he's not.
Yes.
He's been told that's whatgets girls.
(26:55):
That's what works.
Yep.
Then the signs get creepier.
Explains to Brian, Nancydoctors that he asked out Katie long
before he killed her becauseshe was at her weakest having yes.
Sentence, topless photo.
And that got out and hethought he could get a yes out of
her in her moment of weakness.
(27:16):
And that's predator talk.
Mm.
These like, if you like.
I.
These like the way these isthe part of the manosphere like the
pickup artists, right?
Oh, right.
Yes.
Like, it's all about like.
Like how unhealthy.
Right.
Is this as a place to becoming from in forming like a good
and loving relationship to belike, I've got to trap some.
(27:37):
I've got to trap someone.
She's not going to want to bewith me and I have to, you know,
get her against her will.
And I have to be in thatposition of power.
Right.
Because you're weak.
I've seen you with your shirtoff, so.
Or a picture of you with yourshirt off.
So now I am in control.
How horrible.
It's so scary.
It reminds me of one of their strategies.
(27:58):
You insult them.
If they're not in a place ofweakness, you can insult them and
get them down to them.
Sure.
And they are quote unquotedrawn to you because they.
You have this power ofpointing out there what's bad about
a lady.
And that's.
(28:20):
Anyway.
And I gotta say, you know,we're talking about the content.
But the episode is so good atteasing this out.
Some of it's.
And just like the pacing ofthis episode is so good and so tense.
So, I mean, the content, Ithink, is what's really important
to talk about.
But just this whole subtext ofthis is this is being done masterfully.
(28:44):
Yeah.
It is a slower paced episodeand it is confined to this one room
that might hinder theentertainment value to some.
It didn't for me, nor for you.
I loved it.
Yeah.
Somewhere in there, though, hestands over her like you had mentioned.
You almost sense that he feelsthis is how men should treat women.
And when he makes that jump ather as he.
(29:08):
Yeah.
Is he standing there above herlike he might hit her or as if.
He'S gonna hurt her?
Yeah, man.
It makes viewers jump.
It's frightening and it'sunbelievable that Briony is able
to contain herself and that'shis all.
That little 40 seconds worthof scene is just as scary as a horrible
horror movie.
It's terrifying.
I read or looked at this scenefor the character Jamie.
(29:31):
As you know, like this toxicstew has been here.
But things like throwing achair and standing over a woman.
He's never done something likethat before.
So I thought Owen Cooperplayed him as a kid who's becoming
aware of his own power, so to speak.
Power to possibly hurt orintimidate others.
(29:55):
And, and, and it's.
It's like kind of seductive, right?
Like it makes you feel strong.
Yeah.
And his belittling of her.
Oh, you thought I was gonnahit you?
Look how scared you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's intense.
And, and, and it's.
I like him kind of likediscovering that kind of in real
time as you're watching it isreally chilling because it's like
(30:16):
this is kind of the.
The road he's walking right now.
Yep.
It's not good and it's not healthy.
What an ending to this episode.
Yeah.
She eventually gets him out of there.
He has to leave anyway at.
At some point.
But she cries, gathersherself, and you get this returning
sound of an ac.
(30:37):
Almost as if it's ever loomingpresence of hate there.
There's.
There's a huge sense too, thatladies feel this way and have to
deal with this shit so muchand do this.
This is like the privatemoment that maybe I was unaware of
here, that ladies have to.
Okay, I've got to gathermyself before I go to see what to
(30:58):
do.
Whatever's next.
Yeah.
And it's a stereotype, right,that women are too emotional or whatever
misogynistic stereotype.
And I think I really liked itbecause the psychologist had to be
in complete control of herselfin an utterly exhausting situation.
And we see.
Not we.
(31:19):
We see a young man who'scompletely out of control emotionally.
And like you said, she.
It's like.
It's almost like she times herself.
She has the moment where shecries for.
For Jamie.
I think there's actually I.
In her performance.
Maybe I'm reading too muchinto it, but I love the actors.
And I think there's.
There's crying for Jamie, forthe emotions in the room, and then
(31:42):
she's like, well, that's.
That got to go.
And Jamie gets to just bepissed off the rest of his life and
she doesn't.
As he screams outside of theroom and bangs on the window.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
He.
He's out of.
It's the.
This.
Is this the stuff that he'sbeing infested with?
It's.
It's really.
(32:03):
It's out of control.
Brian E.
Is played by Aaron daughter Dorothy.
Dorothy, Something like that.
Very good.
The psychologist who.
Whom we've been calling Briony.
A little extra note here.
One more extra note.
That guard constantly hoveringover Brianny is just a reminder of
what Jamie believes.
This guy inches closer andcloser to her harassment every second.
(32:26):
And he's not even on screenthat long.
He's, I guess, foreshadowingwhat Jamie's gonna really put into
motion with his conversation.
He is absolutely.
What a creep.
Yeah, Yeah, I know.
It's like she's.
She's got to do this and shehas to put up, you know, she's got
to have this interview withJamie and she's got to put up with
(32:49):
all this.
Exactly.
We got a Great comment from 87Jetta when we discussed the first
episode of Adolescence.
I'll.
I'll read it word for word.
It's so good.
Yeah.
I don't think he would mind.
So as to avoid any spoilers, Iwon't get into any detail in discussing
adolescence, buddy.
It's powerful.
(33:09):
I represented juveniledefendants in criminal cases for
several years, and now I'm onthe prosecution side, and the very
nature of the job requirescontending with some very disturbing
things.
Watching the seriesreinforced, at least for me, that
no matter how long and howoften you're exposed to such awfulness,
you never become completelyused to it.
(33:30):
Stephen Graham's acting in theseries is incredible, particularly
in the fourth episode, and Ithink that sets up us to get there.
I think I would Agree.
Especially with the end ofthat, with all of it.
But especially the commentabout Stephen Graham's acting and
the way that he is really thelinchpin of the fourth episode.
Yeah.
(33:50):
And some of the first, even on.
Occasion, some of the first.
Well, you know, I loved you.
This is kind of what I said with.
I feel like there's notnothing goes to waste.
Like stuff that happened inthe first episode informs this last
episode.
So even though everything isso different, it feels like a very
natural place for this show to be.
(34:11):
A smart way to book in theseries, man.
Episode four was a gut punchthat ripped my heart out.
I can't fathom being a kid inthe Internet age.
Yeah, that's going to be a bigdisconnect for people of my era and
before to trying to dig intowhat it may be like to be young with
(34:38):
a smartphone or the Internetso nearby.
I, I can't imagine growing upwith a smartphone because like, you
know, I think every kidencounter, you know, just in books
or whatever, like stuff that'smaybe a little bit inappropriate
or, you know, you're just not.
It's too adult in the sensethat like you just haven't had the
life experience to deal with it.
(34:59):
But just like the, the easyavailability of just really toxic
stuff and, and not only that,but the way it's being reinforced
in the real world with thesepeople who would, you know, they're,
they're, they're making money,they seem successful, they run countries.
You know, like it's real.
It just seems real.
(35:20):
Like I know, I know everygeneration feels like this and there
is, I think we over idolizethe innocence of youth because you
kid.
We all know kids are, we allgrew up with.
Kids aren't innocent.
They.
They wail on each other likeeveryone else.
But it is kind of.
You're kind of havingsomething being stolen from you,
I think.
Yeah, that's a good way ofputting it.
(35:40):
Part it is.
I don't want to go like so faras to say, but you're kind of having
childhood stolen from you.
You're 13.
You should not be thinkingabout, you know, it's just like the,
like the joke in the school, right?
Like, isn't every 13 year oldinvoluntarily celibate?
Like you're 13.
This shouldn't be the way thatyou're learning to interact with
people.
Yeah, I think I was stillplaying with GI Joes at 13.
(36:03):
Oh, I for sure was.
Yeah.
I wept like a baby for episodefour for.
On a few different Levels.
I felt so sorry for Eddie andhis wife, Manda and Lisa, their daughter.
But I imagine every singleparent believes they could have done
more.
Yeah, Anytime there's a littleor big mistake made by the kids,
(36:26):
every parent has to think thathere they weren't even close to being
bad parents.
Not in the least.
Yet there's that moment whereEddie brings up this idea that I
needed to toughen him up.
And it's a worry.
He doesn't say it quite likethis, but it's a worry.
He needs to be just a little tougher.
I was scared for him.
(36:47):
My dad felt the same way about me.
Very similar scenario here.
Instead of sports, even I andthe character Jamie prefer to draw.
And we're both good at it.
So same as Jamie there.
It's why I believe that thisshit can happen so much more easily
in the Internet age.
The wrong rabbit hole.
(37:08):
Yeah.
Your kids lost.
It's why I'm thankful I didn'tgrow up with the Internet.
Very similar things.
That could have been me buyinginto the manosphere.
And I'd like to think that Iwould have found it repulsive.
I.
Those thoughts, thosemisogynistic thoughts certainly existed
before the Internet.
I could hear guys say this orthat kind of degrading and very sexual
(37:32):
about girls.
And I would just think tomyself, this sounds bad.
This does not sound good.
I, I was repulsed by it.
And I, I did when I was atthat age and of Jamie and similar
thoughts were espoused by a queen.
It says felt icky.
Yeah.
A wrong turn or two or a longtime with the Internet, which wasn't
possible in 1986.
(37:53):
Who knows?
Yeah, I'll agree with you.
You know, like the, the.
His poor parents are blindsided.
They had no idea that any ofthis was in their kid.
This final chapter is aboutparents, obviously, but it was about
parenting.
It's a delicate job.
You're gonna it up.
But you can amend some of thisup easily.
(38:16):
I think in many cases too.
If he could, you know, ifEddie maybe recognize that in the
moment or a day or two later,there could have been a bit of emendation.
How much?
Hard to say.
It's not the fault of Eddieand his wife.
I, I thought Stephen Graham'sacting was pretty astounding.
(38:38):
This episode especially, youknow, because, you know, it was.
It's kind of brought up in thefirst one, like classic.
Oh, what did the father did to him?
Do to him?
And we, we learn from, as wewatch Steven go, that like, yeah,
he.
He's Angry, he's at a boiling point.
There's a lot of frustration there.
Never at any point does hefeel like he's a danger to his family.
(39:01):
At no point does he feel, youknow, there's, there's disagreement.
It's never scary like that.
And I thought that was soimpressive to, to have that as kind
of the context for what you'rethe subtext, I guess, for what you're
seeing.
Nice to also have thecharacter of Lisa who demonstrates
for us that she's fine, she'snormal and maybe even better than
(39:26):
fine.
She's probably quite a great kid.
Her poor parents, you know,ask, how did we make her?
And the answer is, you know,she answers the.
Jamie's mother, who's, who's Manda?
Is it Manda?
Manda.
No.
I'm forgetting everything.
Yeah.
Amanda answers back the sameway we made him.
You know, it was one of manyjust deeply sad moments.
(39:52):
Very much the final scenewhere Eddie kisses the bunny, tucks
it in, says to it as if it isJamie, he's sorry.
He's probably a very largepercentage of every father.
It's gut wrenching and kudosto the show, to Stephen Graham, to
those that put it together.
This is a show people need tosee at the people like me who know
(40:16):
of these problems but justneed this emotional story to reinforce
how much care it's going totake, how much attention it might
take.
Yeah, you're right.
Because, you know, these,these parents, you know, he's like,
oh, I started working more.
She's like, yeah, but youknow, he'd still come home and just
run to his room, which is likekind of a normal thing for kids to
(40:40):
do.
Right.
But they're, now they'reblaming themselves for, well, we
should have forced them tocome down and whatever.
And I don't, I don't thinkthey necessarily had like a right
choice.
I don't think so.
I mean, the right choice isdon't let your kid on the Internet
or have a smartphone.
But that's not practical,especially in today's day and age
when you need it for you atevery level.
(41:01):
You need it for schoolwork.
I would argue, if I can pushup against that, I would argue you'd
need the computer, you don'tneed the phone.
Well, I would agree with that too.
The smartphone is, is a toymore often than not.
Dr.
Jonathan Haight released thebook, what was it last year?
The Anxious Generation.
Yep.
It makes some prettycompelling arguments.
(41:23):
It makes great arguments.
I don't know why he caughtFlack, I guess because the way the
Internet and debate isstructured is that you have to disagree
somewhere.
You have to examine the thesisby turning over that rock and seeing
(41:43):
what's underneath and what he missed.
I think his argument is excellent.
I think his big point ofimprovement across the nation is
to hold out until they're 16for a smartphone.
Nothing wrong with a phone.
And I'm getting into policy here.
But it goes well with this show.
You know, the, this is afinger pointing series at the manosphere.
(42:10):
Manosphere.
And it's ilk for sure.
It is an examination of whatcan happen to our boys.
Not.
And you know, some peopleonline would say I wanted to know
more about Katie.
That deserves its own set ofepisodes and Absolutely.
Series.
I do think that they did a very.
(42:31):
This is that Katie was neverjust a victim.
Right.
That we start getting apicture of her.
But yeah, I mean this show is,is looking.
It's, it's not.
This is going to soundhorrible to say, but in a sense it's
not Katie's story because it'sa story of how could someone do this
(42:51):
horrible thing.
And Katie's story deserves tobe told.
Yeah.
And should be told.
But this story isunfortunately a story about what
happens when you treat peopleas a means and not an end of themselves.
Right.
And, and, and, and, and whathappened with this kid.
(43:11):
And it was horrible.
What happens when you treatthem like objects as well.
Yep, exactly.
Yeah.
It's very gender specific herefor the young guys and what they've
been taught or perhaps pickedup on about being quote unquote,
eight man.
Yeah, I, I think it had to bemade and I'm very glad.
(43:32):
I didn't know that it had tobe made until I watched it.
And I'm very glad I've seen it.
I, I think another thing thatI thought was, was very good is in
that last episode with.
And you do have kind ofJamie's anxiety about being a man
in his dad's eyes.
And then his dad admits likehe was so bad at soccer, I literally
(43:53):
couldn't watch it.
But then, you know, likebrings up his drawing and this really
like sweet, sensitive side of Jamie.
Right.
Like he was so proud of hisson for sitting down there and drawing.
And I really liked how allthis kind of together was like, if
you're a young sensitive kidwho's getting your brain baked in
this stuff, it makes you hateand kill parts of yourself.
(44:17):
The part of Jamie that satdown at that kitchen table and drove,
that drew those monsters, he'sbeing told is weakness.
Right.
He's not really a man.
He's weak.
And it makes you kill thesereally, really good and important
and parts of.
Parts of yourself.
And of course, it hurts otherpeople as well too.
Yeah.
I know.
(44:37):
Because I killed that part ofmyself for many years until I had
a daughter of my own and Istarted drawing again for her.
I think there's.
There's, you know, just the.
The world we live in.
There's probably every singleone of us out there is.
Is gonna be like.
This idea of masculinity mademe feel like I couldn't do X or I
couldn't be Y because it's.
(44:59):
It's an ideal.
It's made up.
Nobody can do that.
I'm totally glad I hadsomeone, a couple of someones to
fall back on and who helped mesee that's not 100% true.
Tough.
Tough watch.
But vital.
I thought that.
I thought adolescence was great.
And it really.
(45:20):
It really got the tears out of me.
I can see why.
Because that last episode is gutting.
Yep.
Absolutely gutting.
As a parent, brace yourself as a.
If you're a guy.
And maybe on the sensitiveside, brace yourself.
You need.
Yeah.
But it's worth was very good.
(45:41):
Honestly.
One of the things that.
They could have done this for10 episodes if they wanted to.
I was kind of amazed at theeconomy of it.
Right.
It really felt like theydidn't get greedy.
They knew exactly what theywanted to do to portray, and that's
what they portrayed.
That's right.
Smart move.
I think of picking the.
The four chapters that.
(46:02):
Yes.
Give you this and leave therest to ambiguity.
Yeah.
There's still a lot that's notdirectly said, but you can kind of
figure it out.
Oh, yeah.
It's suggested, you know, more than.
More than said.
And that's good.
There's.
There's a lot of loose endsthat were never wrapped up.
And I think that's finebecause that's life, right?
Yeah, it is.
(46:22):
Life isn't a story.
Not to maybe end on a louder note.
Did you.
How many.
How many times did you usecaptions for this one?
Oh, I did.
The whole time.
Yeah.
I'm at the age where somethinglike a British accent.
If they're speaking quickly, I can't.
And then he.
This is too, like.
They've got more of like anorthern accent.
Huh.
(46:43):
Which is.
So I'm like, subtitles, It'llhelp me out.
I did want to be clear onabout four or five scenes in this
last one.
So I would rewind it for 30seconds and then double check what
I heard.
I'm glad I did.
Subtitles on I'm very glad I did.
Yeah.
I think that brings us to theend of our podcast episode and we
(47:04):
will be back next Tuesday.
We do have an upcoming break,the Tuesday after Easter.
Okay.
So just heads up there.
Once again, if you have it inyou, we appreciate help with donations,
specifically website andpodcast hosting and improvement.
Cost a little money.
If you'd like to do that.
It's wonderful.
Head to the Alabama take,click on donations or just click
(47:27):
in our show notes eachTuesday, or if we release one on
Thursday, which can happenevery now and again if you do that.
Thank you very much for Adamand Donovan.
I'm Blaine, and we hope thatyou love yourself.
Thanks very much.
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