Cost of Class: 'Dope Thief,' 'The White Lotus' and 'Severance'

This week, Blaine gives a welcome to listeners and lays out the format for anyone new -- as well as small request (0:01).

After a quick hello to Adam and Donovan, Blaine explains to them in the non-spoiler section on why 'Dope Thief' on Apple TV+ could be the next must watch piece of TV (1:11). After that, it's a few cursory thoughts on where 'The White Lotus' is at this point with no spoilers (8:01).

Coming back from a thirty-second break, it is time for spoilers: in this segment, the hosts get into specifically what is still improving with 'The White Lotus' (12:10) and how 'Severance' answers questions, poses new ones, and intentionally stays ambiguous on other issues (34:53).

As always, visit The Alabama Take site for more podcasts and thoughts.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, what's up?
It's taking it down.
We're a working class TV andstreaming podcast, one that splits
every episode into two.
The first section exists foranyone who wants to listen for recommendations
or general thoughts, since wewon't spoil our topics there.
And the back half details whatworks for us in the series or movie

(00:21):
and what does not.
Beware of that spoiler sectionif you haven't watched or if you're
adverse to spoilers.
I'm Blaine and the co host,Adam and Donovan join me each week.
Adam's a touring and studiomusician and Donovan's a college
information and media specialist.
Before they come aboard ouryacht this week, I have one ask of
you.

(00:41):
Go to our home site, theAlabama Take, find this podcast episode
and tell us what works foryou, what doesn't, what thoughts
you have, what theories youwant to say or for us to explore.
Or just say hello if that'swhat you'd like to do.
On our home site, you'll notethat there are writings, thoughts,
more podcasts.
Hope you enjoy what you find,but let's bring in our two great

(01:03):
co hosts.
A Alabama tape projection.
The air just goes out of theroom when I hit record.
Well, I'm being quiet so mysilliness doesn't get.
No, it's fun.
It's Donovan.
There he is.
It's Adam.
Hi, Adam.
Are we supposed to keeptalking about Arrested Development?

(01:25):
I mean, you could.
How would that be anydifferent than any other episode
we've recorded?
The percentage would go up.
No spoilers in this section, Buds.
Apple TV released the firsttwo episodes of Dope Thief on Friday.
I got a chance to watch bothof them that were released in between
checking the weather yesterday.

(01:45):
Yeah, it's a long, longweekend in the South.
I'm really glad I live whereit's 50 degrees.
Although it is a little windy today.
We hope everyone's okay, bythe way.
Yeah, for sure.
Some of the info is there inthose first two or those two words
of the title Dope Thief.
You get it right there.
You could do like a closereading just of those two words.

(02:05):
Let's do it.
No, we want to anyway.
It's based off a Dennis Tafoyanovel with the same name.
So it's Brian Tyree, HenryWagner Mora.
You might recognize that name,you might not, but I guarantee you
you'll recognize the actor.
Or you might not, because hekilled it as Pablo Escobar in Narco's

(02:25):
first two seasons.
That's some of my favorite TVof the last.
However, Long it's been.
You and I both love thosefirst two seasons.
Could not look away from that guy.
He was so good.
It had Luis Guzman as aMexican drug kingpin and it gave
us Pedro Pascal's mustache.
That's right.
He was one of the agents.

(02:45):
He's one of the agents and hegrew the mustache for narcos.
If that actor is anything inDope Thief like he is as Pablo, I
mean his, his ability to.
On paper, here's a guy that I,you know, not a good human yet.
He's.
Yeah.
Every step of the way you'relike, this guy's such a badass.

(03:07):
But here's the thing.
You might not recognize him inDope Thief.
I swear I watched the trailerto this and I thought, well, huh,
I wonder who that other actor is.
Odd that he's getting aprominent role beside Brian Tyree
Henry.
But okay, I trust them withthe trailer so far.
I'm in.
No, no, no, no.
It is the guy who played PabloEscobar who has lost £70, £80 and

(03:31):
is just thin and he's not likemalnourished or anything, but he's,
you know, certainly changedhow he looks, you know, very, very
handsome guy in this role.
This happened to me last yearwhen they started running ads for
Matlock.
I was like, who the hell isthat Matlock?
And I didn't recognize KathyBates, like 80 pounds lighter.
Oh, I thought you were like,why isn't Andy Griffith.

(03:53):
Why is he a woman?
Did he transition Dope Thief?
The series was co produced byfamous director Ridley Scott, who
directed the first episode.
It's really funny how innate Isuppose your senses are in recognizing
something's different aboutthis episode.

(04:14):
Because the first episode wasjust propulsive, amazing.
Could not stop watching it.
Second episode was fine.
It was great.
But you could just tell, huh.
Wonder what this, what to do.
Well, you know, you look it up.
It's two different directors.
Ridley Scott directed thefirst one.
I haven't gotten that so badsince watching Mindhunter where like
the first episode is DavidFincher directing it.

(04:34):
And then it goes and it'slike, oh my God, something's changed.
Like, it's not that I don'tlike it.
Yeah, it's just different.
The primary writer, showrunneris Peter Craig.
He worked on Riding theBatman, the Town and some of Gladiator
too.
Are y'all.
Do y'all just marvel at howmuch stuff Ridley Scott gets done

(04:57):
for an 87 year old man?
It's incredible.
Like he just seems like reallyold I'm sorry, y'all.
When he came, like, obviously,like, he was young when he did, like,
Alien and Blade Runner, but,like, he's just been, like, working
steady, like, his whole career.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, they're not all great,but a lot of them are like, damn,
man.

(05:17):
That's.
That's how.
That's the trick to living long.
You just keep doing stuff.
You keep working.
Yeah.
So the two leads to dope thiefBrian Tyree Henry and Wagner Mura
pose as the agents inPhiladelphia to rob dope houses of
their money.
Yeah, I've seen the Wire.
Tell me this mix doesn't work.

(05:38):
These two actors, Apple TVplus, who's on a pretty good run
and that story, and RidleyScott direct the first episode.
And Peter Craig seemscompetent enough.
I will tell you guys, we'renon spoilers, but I will tell you
that the first 10 minutes ofthe first episode is as good of a
call to open as I've seen in acouple of years.

(06:00):
Gives you what you need to know.
Everything you need to know isright there.
It looks like the story's ingood hands.
Shows you all of these verysmall things, but still explosively
paced, engaging.
What's going to happen next feel.
Yeah, I recommend itwholeheartedly based on the first
episode.

(06:21):
The second episode has to slow down.
I don't think it's any faultof the director.
You just got to slow it downsome because you have, you know,
you have to catch up withthese people.
Who are they?
What are they doing?
One of the keys to this onebeing so close to being great is
that they have put once again,some hilarious pop culture references

(06:43):
in Brian Tyree Henry's dialogue.
So all of his insults arethese pop culture references that
are just whiplash.
Funny.
I think it's a good read on people.
Right there on the cusp ofpoverty and the low middle class.
And what are you gonna doabout that?
There's a couple of veryidiosyncratic things to the story

(07:04):
you wouldn't have guessedgoing in.
So I told you that.
And Donovan says, yeah, I'veseen the Wire, but there's some things
in there you wouldn't have guessed.
Okay, No, I was being silly.
I like it.
I know Donovan and I reallyliked it.
Brian Tyree Henry in Atlanta.
And he was very, very good.
He got nothing to do in the eternals.
No, he's a good actor.

(07:26):
If complete sidebar.
But if you.
If you are at all like him,Fresh Air years ago did a really
good interview with him.
He's like brilliant, right?
Yeah, he's, he's so good athis job.
It's like you, you, you aregood in everything you're in.
And it's so fun to see the guywho played Pablo Escobar back in
something that's very much co lead.

(07:50):
Yeah, he's fun to see.
And you know, he looks greatwith, with the weight gone, he looks
nothing like Pablo.
I think they might havesomething going here.
We'll see.
Okay.
One thing we'll break down inour detailed spoiler section later
is the White Lotus on hbo.
It's fourth episode of theseason titled Hide and Seek.
You know, we're reaching thatpoint in a show season where we'll
often say, hey, we recommendit and it's for this kind of viewer.

(08:13):
You're gonna like it or not.
This season's given us moreinscrutable version of the previous
two with that.
I still think it's pretty quality.
It's got its moments.
I think it's an excellentSunday night piece of tv.
If you, if you don't mind aslower version of the first two,
I think season three is for you.

(08:35):
Coming around to it, huh?
Yeah, I think it's starting.
It's, it's a slow, it's alittle too slow of a slow burn, but
yeah, it's slow burn.
This is me not having seen it,but like, did you ever watch like,
like other, the other hbo, itwas on the tip of my tongue and I
just lost it.
But the other HBO show, MikeWhite did, it lightened.

(08:56):
Was that it?
That was it.
No, I didn't know.
Kudlo.
It's got kind of a slow burnstart, but if you stick with it,
it's really got like, I dothink that.
And again, this would beknowing nothing but like, I do think
that he's, he's a really smart writer.
Oh, yeah.
A really smart guy.
He probably.
Yeah, he's probably super smart.
Yeah.
And he wrote School of Rock.
Hey, we always credit him for that.

(09:18):
For new listeners, we recordon Sunday, so don't be confused by
us being a week behind.
So we are going to be talkingabout the fourth episode.
Some of y'all may have seenthe fifth one so far.
You know, a fourth episode,Hide and Seek, I think it continued
to do what it does well in thefirst couple episodes and it continues
to do what it hasn't donewell, what it hasn't been able to
conquer this year.

(09:38):
My gauge is that the goodthings are getting more screen time
and the slower hindrances areGetting less screen time and I think
it's starting to.
To balance and be pretty good.
I usually don't like whenpeople say about a show, just make
it until X episode can't standand then it'll set the hook.
Yeah.

(09:58):
After the fourth episode, Ican say that this does seem like
it's going to be worth thethings that we were impatient about,
especially in episode one and two.
Do you think we were impatient?
You know, this is an attention question.
We can't know until everyepisode's out.
I don't want to say it like itset the hook in episode four because

(10:19):
then I'm creating.
That's almost like saying,what's your favorite movie with a
crazy twist?
It's like, well, now I have to.
That changes the way that youview the piece of film.
I do think this is now, like,okay, we're back on form for the
show and doing something new, possibly.
Like there was a certain levelof menace and darkness that other

(10:45):
seasons people have kind ofbumbled their way into and this seems
like it's going to a boil in adifferent way.
Yeah, I agree with them about all.
We could say, maybe withoutdetailing the episode.
A note to listeners.
We will indeed get into a deepconversation about key elements of
severance in its most recentepisode, but not much to say.

(11:06):
We love it.
Most people will find itappealing and good.
Psychological, semi sci fithriller workplace comedy.
If you can watch it and catchup and hear us out on what we thought.
We're going to take a breakhere and as we ready for the back
half, here's a podcast fromsome of our friends you might like.

(11:28):
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(12:12):
We're deep into spoilers now,so you've been warned.
Okay.
Use timestamps to see whatwe'll talk about and where, and you
can avoid spoilers.
So we're venturing back to thailand.
White Lotus 4th episode, Hideand Seek, Donovan's Back with us
this week.
You've noticed.
Donovan, is it okay if Ireveal to listeners that you were

(12:32):
out last week because youfound your wife's generic Ativan?
That's fine.
I'm not saying you have a problem.
I'm just saying you enjoyed it.
No, no, no, I don't have a problem.
I'm starting a problem.
Yeah.
Like Tim.
Exactly.
You know, this is a show, it'sobviously about class, but this season's
also about what those classdivisions do to us when we brush

(12:54):
up against people, interact oreven connect with them.
You know, it pokes at thequestion, how many resentments are
going to break you?
How many resentments you got inside?
That's just going to make you crumble.
That's actually like a goodand serious question to be asked.
I think.
I really do think it's a great.
Question, like, of Americaright now.

(13:17):
Like all of us, in manydifferent ways.
Yes.
One clear element of theseason that both elevates it as TV
and lowers it simultaneouslyis Walton Goggins and his character,
Rick.
Let me explain.
It's not a knock on any of theother actors.
It's just he's that good, youknow, you almost want him in more

(13:39):
scenes if possible.
Anyone not paying attention tohis work might be surprised at how
he's become a kind of a frontand center lead actor.
But he's paid his dues andhe's good.
That's true.
He kind of went from like,hey, I'm a character actor to like,
you can really put me in justabout any situation.
Yep.
And I'll be distinctive, butyeah, I'll fit it.

(13:59):
But I'll fit it.
You know, the rest of the castis catching up, I think.
I think episode four, youknow, he was.
He was great.
And he was also given the mostinteresting storylines.
Yeah.
I think probably for thereasons that you guys just stated,
but I think that some of theother familiar faces that maybe even
annoyed me at first are nowstarting to come alive and really

(14:25):
assist in stealing the show.
Yeah, Rick's obvious,obviously rich, but he didn't fit
in with them.
And that makes him one of themore interesting characters.
He's a lot like if one of uswon the lottery and we're kind of
had a mean streak, you know,what's he doing there?
He doesn't.
He's not.
He did not come from money.
Well, he does.
He doesn't.

(14:45):
But he's also still very worldly.
Like, he seems like a welltraveled guy, so it's not totally
like man on the street, givenmoney ends up at this resort.
Like, he's clearly moved inand out of different social circles
most of his adult life, Iwould argue.
And that's an interesting story.
And it's all being done, Ithink, through what, what the writing

(15:07):
has done in these last coupleepisodes, but also how Goggins is
playing it.
You get a sense that he's notlike the rest of these people.
So I have not seen the latestepisode, but kind of.
I was, I was thinking aboutthis with, with his character.
This is probably like way toomuch of a stretch, but like, I, I
get reminders of how, like howHenry James would talk about, you

(15:31):
know, one of his great themesis American expatriates in Europe
and like the different kindsof Americanness that you, you know,
coming up against that.
And I thought, you know, I, Ifeel like this is doing something
kind of similar.
Like it's American expats,often from the upper echelons of
society.
And it's really interested in,just like you said, almost like the

(15:53):
class difference.
Right.
The savviness or lack thereofof various folks.
The, the.
The way that, you know, takenin or not taken in.
I think that's like kind of astretch, but I took one Henry James
class in college and by God, I'm.
Going to use it.
It's not a stretch, exceptwith Americans versus Europeans.

(16:13):
It's.
Yes, it's a different.
If it's.
It's a different setting, butI feel like there are some of the
same thoughts and preoccupations.
Maybe little new money versusold money.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
But it's also.
I wouldn't say that it's a newmoney, old money thing as much as.
Because Goggins character is.
Does not exemplify new moneyin the way that that would usually

(16:36):
be described.
I don't think he almostreminds me a bit of a Connie Hilton
in Mad Men.
You know, like, here's a guywho's like, almost outside of the
moneyed perspective.
Obviously Rick has a bit more,you know, he has actually insightful
conversations with.
Could we call her thetherapist, the meditation guide or

(16:57):
whatever.
Yeah.
But that was one of the bestinteractions of the season.
But if anything, I would saythat Greg is the.
Or Gary is the new money kindof representative.
Get it any way you can.
Seems to have arrived and nowis just completely vacant and dead
inside.
He'll always be Greg to me.

(17:18):
There you go.
And then you got.
I think the.
Especially episode four, youhave these three dudes who do represent
kind of what, Donovan, whatyou were talking about, These different
archetypes of Americans withthe ability to be on an extravagant
vacation.
Yes.
In Thailand, I also could seeRick as the Gatsby character who's

(17:38):
just come into money and he'swearing the two flashy Hawaiian shirts,
whereas Gatsby wore the two.
You know, the pink suit.
And he was criticized for that.
And, you know, he's got hisgreen light, which is a little different
than Gatsby's.
I gotta.
I'm gonna take care of thisguy who killed my dad.
I just don't think he gives a shit.
He gives a shit about thatgreen light.

(18:00):
He does.
But, like, is he being dressedby his girlfriend at times?
Like, did they just like, oh,we're going to Thailand, so let's
go buy some lightweight clothes?
Yeah, just throw that in the bag.
Or he dresses like he doesn'tgive a shit.
And he just bought these fiveshirts that are outlandish, but he
didn't even look at them.
Yeah, yeah.
And he got him at the airportgift shop is how it does.

(18:22):
Kind of.
Yeah, right.
Like.
Like you're going through.
And it's like, whatever, I'llget those.
Which is what you would do if.
If you were a guy who had,like, maybe participated in crimes
and not crimes.
How you say, yeah, not beenable to pack and check a suitcase
for his world traveling.
What would you do when you gotthere if you were cash rich and resource

(18:43):
poor?
Otherwise, just go to the gift shop.
Oh, yeah.
The way Goggins does theslight stuff with his eyes, subtle
expressions, these ambiguityof his movements and reactions.
It's just fun to watch.
One example is what you'retalking about.
Adam.
You said it's probably one ofthe best scenes of the season where
he's talking to the lady who'sbeen working with him to lower his

(19:03):
stress.
She tells him he's not the pain.
You are not the pain.
Something like that.
And he has a look that can beinferred as if he's never heard anything
like that about himself, or heappreciates this care from a stranger
that he's never experienced.
Her read on him is kind ofmoving because she could have dismissed

(19:26):
him as like, well, this.
This gruff guy who maybe justbrought his young girlfriend here
on vacation to impress her.
You know, what do I care aboutwhat he has?
I'm just doing my job.
But when he actually kind ofopens up and we talked about this
already a few episodes ago,says some pretty insightful things
that give you a Window into.
There's more complexity here.

(19:47):
Yeah.
You know, he has thought abouthis emotions.
He's thought aboutspirituality in some sense.
Well, there's.
There's that component of sheis paying that back in a way by,
like, seeing him.
And he has two moments ofbeing seen, for lack of better phrase,
in this episode.
I think it worked here.
He also opens up to Chelsea ina new way, and I thought both of

(20:11):
those, you know, and you have Jason.
Isaac's character iscompletely shutting down any connection
to his family.
Yeah, he opens up when you.
The nice North Carolina familyis more of, like, the.
The storybook picture of,like, aspirational wealth in America.
Yeah.
You know, I really lovecharacters, and sometimes people

(20:33):
who are, like, deeply investedin tune, listening, eye contact on
the deep shit and smoking acigarette totally don't give a shit
about anything you're sayingif it's the unimportant shit.
And that's some of what he's doing.
Interesting that none of the.
The older men that we'retalking about really gave a.

(20:57):
About anything on the yacht.
And I say older just todifferentiate them from the generation
of Guy of Saxon and his little brother.
And the ladies they're with,deeply impressed by this materialistic
display.
And the people who actuallyhave the means to own it are completely
checked out.
Yeah, that's true.
Good point.

(21:18):
Here's where I'll be.
I'll gladly be proven wrongbecause we don't get screeners.
Hbo.
Yeah.
Once again, Lotus opens withthis quick bit that's supposed to
create some tension, but Ithink it only gives me confusion.
And I can't remember previousseasons doing it to this point.
Last week, it was the point ofview camera.
It came up from the water toopen the show to give a sense of

(21:40):
menace.
This week, it's Belindahearing something in her room that
went nowhere.
And I know that part of thisshow is that it doesn't go anywhere
this episode, but next episodeit could.
It's just odd choices for red herrings.
But again, time can tell me adifferent tale.
Well, they closed episodethree with that.
Right.
Like.
And it almost seemedfrightening to the point that maybe

(22:02):
she should run after the hotelemployee she's been hanging out with,
whose name is escaping meright now, kind of guiding her through
kind of crushing.
Go call him back becausethere's someone hiding in your room.
You know, now they do it again.
Oh, really?
This episode?
That was my read on it.
No, I forgot that.
All right, Adam, quick question.
Why the hell is Sacks so intothese goddamn Shakes and forcing

(22:24):
them on his brother.
I mean, you're not going tocultivate mass.
Not getting a bunch of protein.
Hey, here's my thing.
First of all, I hope somebodybeats the out of him.
But second, last week he justhad this perfect fitting quote for
him where he says, of coursethey're decent people because they're
rich.
Don't you?
I just want to kick him there.

(22:45):
But.
But look, man, they make thoseprotein shakes tasty these days.
I don't understand what'sgoing on.
They're pretty good these days.
You're not, you're not puttingenough in it.
Well, he's rich enough toavoid doling them out as blender.
You know, he's rich enough toget the pre made, the big tall pre
made ones.
Well, but you can't control that.
You got to control your bcaasand your, your creatines and all

(23:08):
that going in there.
Are you saying he's puttingsteroids in these?
Is that possible?
You have to do a shot, right?
I don't know.
He doesn't really look like aguy who's on steroids.
No, he doesn't, but he lookslike a guy who would try them.
Yeah.
Hide and seek had the threegal pals, that's Lori, Kate and Jacqueline,
venturing into town, gettingbesieged by water guns, meeting up

(23:29):
with Valentine's Russian pals.
Before we get to the Russianpals, that water gun scene specifically
is such a filler scene.
You think so?
Yeah.
I know it's a real traditionin Thailand for them to do such,
but that should have made theediting room floor.
What do we get out of that?
They run into the store andlook at each other and they feel

(23:50):
threatened by kids with water guns.
No, I think that this is thembeing shown to be completely ignorant
of the space that they'retrying to inhabit.
Like, it's fine to not read upon anything local.
I mean, you're still an asshole.
But if you're just going to aresort and you know that you're going
to be walled off and you'regoing to have this very curated experience,

(24:11):
that's one thing.
But then to be like, we wantsomething authentic and to go into
town and she specificallytouches the head of one of the kids,
which is like a big no, no,that obviously you don't touch a
stranger, period.
But the head is reading up on this.
In Thailand, you don't, youdon't touch other people's head.

(24:32):
And so they immediately disrespect.
Not only are they, if you're atourist and you're like, I'm looking
for a good time.
And you get out and an entirecity is having a water gun fight.
Yeah.
And you can't have fun with that.
Yeah.
Leave, leave.
Or like, also, what do you.
What do you really.
It's revealing about whatyou're actually after, so the fact.

(24:53):
Yeah.
I just think there's probablya more interesting way to present
that.
I agree that that's what it conveyed.
But it also immediately makesyou question their Russian tour guide.
You go from a scene where shecalls him their butler, which he
is definitely not, and stealshim away.
And she gives this look to the.

(25:15):
The people working the frontdesk like, he's coming with us, you
know, and then for him toimmediately abandon them in the middle
of this mayhem that he knowsis not going to meet their vibe at
all.
I like the scene.
Okay, well, careful.
Readers of credits have linkedone of the Russian buds as being

(25:36):
one of the people who brokeinto the jewelry store.
I mean, that's.
That's right there to me.
Yeah.
It's no wonder they put it inthe credits because you should probably
make that conclusion.
But it's no wonder that theywanted that snake bracelet so badly.
It matches the tattoo.
If you want one, you want the other.
It just keeps on going.
Now that Greg knows Belinda'sonto him, it.

(25:57):
He's.
He's figuring some things out.
He.
He sure was eyeing her son'seye on.
When he was looking up info on Belinda.
That was both of them lookingthe other one up.
Yes.
That was so good, wasn't itwas really good.
And like, when, you know whatkind of guy Greg is unsettling, you
know.
Yeah, yeah.
I'll shout out the actor here.

(26:19):
I think his name is John Grass.
Uncle Rico.
He's actually pretty good andhe does good work here as being a
person with a lot on his mindwhen he should be having fun on his
boat.
I love that he played that so well.
Like, that's exactly whatthose people look like.
And I've been one of thosepeople where you're just like, I'm
at a party.
But, you know, I've got thisgoing on in my personal life.

(26:42):
There's an episode of Louieabout that.
It also makes you wonder,like, even if he wasn't freshly worried
that he may be discovered formurdering a enormously wealthy woman,
like, what's he getting out of Thailand?
You know, hiding.
But he looks miserable.
Oh, yeah.
All the time.

(27:02):
I think he looks like that nomatter what.
And, you know, There's areason we're shown his massive palatial
home, that he's just looksagain, miserable walking.
You know what could get himout of this funk?
Drugs.
Tim.
Tim.
He and Tim connecting.
They.

(27:22):
You know, he should haveoffered the guy.
Not a fan.
He got the whole script now.
Again, drugs.
Yeah.
He should have been like,dude, I got some of these.
You want one?
Their interaction was good.
Jason.
Isaac's playing someone who has.
You know, we're all Alabama fans.
We.
We spend our time inTuscaloosa, so we all.

(27:43):
Some.
The stove gets touched withthe day drinking.
You know what I mean?
We have seen this play out, but.
When you're on vacation, youget the opportunity to go straight
to your room and sleep it off.
That's true.
They're not trucking you outof Bryant.
Tenney and still make it to dinner.
I was impressed.
Yeah.
So Sax, Lachlan, Chelsea, Chloe.

(28:03):
That's Greg's girlfriend.
A lot of young ladies, a lotof old dudes.
They all stay on the boat forThailand's new year celebration.
Not on the boat.
Not on the boat.
Rick, Greg, Tim, Victoria.
And this can only mean thatLalin's got more card tricks.
I don't like Saxon, but Ithink there were.
We talked last week about himdisplaying a naivete and innocence

(28:29):
about reacting to his dad,taking the phones, wanting to help,
maybe realizing that he's notas grown up as he thinks he is.
I think the.
The maybe gap in his facadethis week is like, he's very proud
of his brother.
He would think this guy.
Everything else we know abouthim, he would be mocking his brother
for learning how to do card tricks.

(28:50):
That's true.
And he's so proud of him.
Yeah.
This archetype would bully hisbrother, but here he loves him.
Gassing him up.
Yeah.
I'm not here to start the fan club.
I'm just.
It was an interesting.
It doesn't all compute.
And I think they're trying toshow he's.
Yeah, it's a little bit ofsubversion for that type of character.

(29:10):
It's good.
Yeah.
Almost childish in some ways.
Oh, yeah.
He really is.
Good point.
And you brought that up somelast week, but that.
That definitely fits.
Something I brought up lastweek was how the workers haven't
caught my attention like inseasons past, but.
And that's still the case withhide and seek, but.
Well, they got a gun now.
Well, I was gonna say gaytalkplays a huge role going forward.

(29:33):
He foolishly leaves the gun on display.
I mean, we could all see thiscoming, but still.
And I know.
I know deep down that Tim didnot snatch that pistola.
That's a good red herring, I think.
I think it's.
Well, that he's never showngetting it.
He just shown looking at itand then that's it.
He doesn't show him putting itin his.
In his belt.
I watched.
I made that up.

(29:54):
No, I see him.
Interesting.
I mean, there's all sorts ofconclusions people are jumping to
about how this plays out.
Yeah.
Now, Right.
Like.
And a lot of people are tryingto zoom back and say, guys, this
is still like a comedy most ofthe time.
I don't.
Kind of like when the.
The incest stuff was heavilyflirted with.
Is that.

(30:15):
Is that really something thatthis show is interested in?
Yeah.
Going in with, like, it'sfunny to, like, flirt with the line,
but to have like an outright.
Not only like incest, but,like, you know, molestation and all
this kind of stuff.
I don't know if they're going there.
Here's the thing, and I'llgive you a counterpoint.
Gay talk is the nice guy.

(30:37):
There is a little moredarkness hovering over this season.
Is he the incel sword whomight shoot this place up?
You know, Mook doesn't givehim much.
Much of much attention.
She doesn't give a shit forhim, really.
If you.
And if you only like someoneon conditions like getting a promotion,
like she seems to be, youdon't really like them.
And it seems like she wouldhave jumped on the offer for a date

(31:01):
if she did truly like him.
And our listener, Mr.
Jeddah here, you know, she.
She's playing him for therobbers, it seems.
Yeah, I could see that.
And.
But also his.
You were immediately showing him.
And we don't know theirbackstory really, like what the.
The timbre of that is, but hiscourtship of her or attempt is very

(31:21):
like, please go out with me.
Please marry me, please.
You know, it's.
It's weird.
It's.
It's lacking.
He's coming from a place of lacking.
Right.
I've seen a couple of peoplesay this, and I thought of it too.
Credit to all of us, I guess.
That gun that Tim may or maynot have grabbed, it's.
It's not.

(31:41):
And this is morbid.
Apologies.
That's not the sort of gunthat makes the sounds that you hear
in that opening scene of thefirst episode.
Those are more pops, like an automatic.
And this is just a pistol.
Some people think that maybeBelinda is going to be able to tip
off Greg or tip off the properauthorities to Greg.

(32:03):
They show up.
Let's say Tim does have the gun.
He thinks that he is possiblybeing pursued by.
I don't know who would becoming to get him for all of his
fraud, you know, and he can'ttake the shame.
And the shooting begins by mistake.
But I'm not sure that theWhite Lotus is a show that has like
a suicide.

(32:23):
Murder, murder, murder.
If he's like gonna kill hisfamily or something and the place
is getting shot up as they'retrying to get it doesn't strike me
as that program.
There's tension in this season.
I don't think he's beenpresent before.
And then the three women alsosteal some of the guns from those
amongst the dead and they onlystart shooting at each other.

(32:44):
Wow.
Hey, I'm not crazy about ourpodcast listing prediction at all.
Yeah, listing predictions.
But I do have one.
This is the show that reallyasks you to.
Mine is this, I think Tim O.
D's and maybe by choice.
And that's his body we seefloating in the water in episode

(33:04):
one.
Because that, that bodydoesn't have any blood.
No blood on that body.
It's shocking the how.
I mean you already said this.
You know, if one is good, let's.
Let's keep on taking them.
I mean he is just down therabbit hole with.
Yeah, Maybe he isn't ODing bychoice, I don't know.

(33:25):
But he's only been completelyunfamiliar with him.
That's true.
Happens.
I think this is.
I know you have other thingsyou want to say about the show, but
we gotta shout out ParkerPosey who we maybe didn't love in
the first.
Well, she annoyed us and Ithink she's grown on us.
I think that she wasspectacular in episode four.
Yes.
I think her nonverbal andverbal acting in this as she like

(33:51):
encounters.
Cause she's the one thatquestions to Saxon just because they
have money, they're not good people.
You know.
And I think you can read thatas they are not good people in the
oh, they're not well bred kindof people or like they're just morally
not good people.
And I think maybe she meant both.
I don't know.
Yeah, but you see more of herhumanity this time and maybe as she

(34:15):
comes off the.
The drugs which apparently.
What if she is as dependentupon them as she seems to be.
This is going to be a rough.
It could be few days for her.
Yeah.
Last note that I have Jeremy Isaacs.
You know, that's Tim man Theyshould have reshot that scene.
He goes completely out of theaccent when he's on the phone at

(34:36):
the end of Hide and Seek episode.
It's pretty blatant.
I was shot out of the scene immediately.
They slip around a little bit.
I didn't catch that one.
It's pretty bad, but.
It's pretty bad.
Well, let's talk about a groupof people who.
Some of them have some reallyweird accents or at least vocabulary.

(34:58):
Severance, episode nine, theAfter Hours.
That's the penultimate episodeof the season in the books, so I
can't decide if I want tostart wide and broad and shift into
the narrow and specific orvice versa.
I feel like if anyone stuckwith us this far for severance, you
could probably go specific ifyou feel like it.
Yeah.
I'll back up an episode andsay that I saw even more naysayers

(35:21):
about episode eight, theHarmony Cobell episode, and they
just said that she.
She didn't need a wholeepisode for that.
It could have been half or aback and forth.
I disagree.
I disagree, too.
I really liked it a lot.
It was kind of.
Maybe bold's not the rightword, but kind of a bold choice for

(35:42):
a prestige.
No to be like, we're gettingthis done in 37 minutes, I thought.
And I liked it.
Yeah, I do, too.
I did, too.
And also, I.
Sorry.
But, like, if you thinkPatricia Arquette can't, like, captivate
you for a full episode, youneed to go back and forth, like,
what's wrong with you?
You know?

(36:03):
Have you not seen True Romance?
Yeah.
I'm not sure any of thatepisode would have carried the same
resonance and impact if we hadbroken with, like, almost a timeline
narrative of her trip.
Right.
Agree.
Like, if you'd, like, goneback to the severed floor or found
out what Mark was up to, youhave to be.

(36:24):
Because you felt the isolationof that town, you know, and the depression
and the bleakness.
Yeah.
All right, so let's get backto episode nine of Severance, the
After Hours.
It's kind of an episode aboutemotional knowledge.
This episode also reconfirmsto me that the Enies are in hell.

(36:44):
Especially with.
With.
With.
Especially with Dylan G.
Everyone's having a bad day.
Lots of possible hidden thingsin what the characters say, but.
But none more than.
Than the James Egan creep.
He says, I wish you'd takethem raw, don't you?
What?

(37:04):
I don't know what that means.
First of all, is that, like,some sort of protein reference?
The eggs?
Yeah, I know what he.
Yeah, yeah.
If you're that hungover, youshould take it raw.
And then James Egan.
Helena asked him if he wantssomething to eat, and he says, I'll
just watch.
Or how.
Whatever.
He says, what?
What the.

(37:25):
That's just creepy.
There's a 30 Rock joke aboutthis where Jack's had a heart attack
and he can't eat anything, sohe just wants to watch Liz Lemony.
And that's all I can think of.
That's creepy.
That's probably what they're referencing.
I'm glad you picked up one.
That shot of the Egan home asthey leave for the day.
And the water tower there.

(37:45):
Boy.
So that was the part where Iwas like, get RFK Jr.
On this.
He needs to be investigating Lumen.
Where are they putting in the water?
What are they putting in the water?
I mean, it's a good question, right?
Boy, that gave you the messageof containment.
If not almost like a snow globe.
Feel there.
You know, I'm sure theoriescan abound.

(38:05):
Or just off that shot.
It's restrainment.
They do something with thecamera there.
You think that the compoundlooked kind of like an egg?
Because I was thinking that anegg is.
An egg is bounded on all sidesright by the shell.
Well, let's talk about the eggthat she eats.
It's a.
The boiled egg.
She puts it in six pieces, andthen there's a little ugly baby kid

(38:27):
in the middle of the platethere that it frames.
That looked like a.
You ever see the, like.
The like terrifying.
Like a German.
That's like, oh, it'sterrifying Tales for infants.
So it will shape up.
That's kind of what itreminded me of.
Yeah, the kids learning a lesson.
You know, those ugly Victorianera kids getting spanked.

(38:47):
And by the way, Gemma inPortuguese means egg yolk.
Wait, really?
Yeah, it means egg or egg yolk.
It's egg or either egg.
But one of the two I seriouslythink we're looking at.
Helena meant to have a babyfor Kirsch consciousness.
And that boiled egg surroundsthat ugly baby to remind us or hint

(39:11):
at that.
I'm not ready to go that far.
But I do agree that, like, what.
Like, what are like theconnotations of egg?
Right?
Like it's birth and it's newlife, but also it's springtime, and
there's no springtime here.
You can't spend all your moneygetting egg all dolled up for Easter.

(39:33):
Exactly.
I do the.
The opening shot of.
It's not the opening shot.
I think the swimming was good, too.
That the.
That clock is yeah.
Designed in such a way that ifyou are swimming to keep track of
your.
Your exercise and the clock isalways moving.
Right.
And if you're swimming laps ina pool, you're going to run into

(39:53):
the end of the pool.
Right.
And have to start over.
And the idea of being.
Again, containment, like y'allare saying that all your effort is
still.
You run into something andhave to start again.
It reminded me a little bit ofthe bit in Hamlet where he's like,
I could be bounded in anutshell and count myself king of
infinite space.
If it were not that I wouldhave bad dreams.

(40:14):
Right.
It's like even the Egans arekind of trapped in their.
In their air, in their.
In their egg, in their.
Yeah.
But then the scene of heragain splitting that egg, using the
kitchen tool to do that in a.
In a clean way.
Delicate even.
The theme of the episode, tome, and really the.

(40:35):
What seems to be the theme ofthe season.
How much of your self bleeds between.
Yeah.
Severed souls.
But also specifically with theepisode, I feel like they revealed
a lot about who's severed, howmany ways you can be severed, how
they can use location to doit, all of these things.

(40:55):
And so splitting something like.
It's not a clean.
Any Audi thing anymore.
We already know Gemma's.
How many Gemmas are there?
So for her, it would beinteresting if it was six.
Right.
Weren't there six pieces ofthe egg?
Yeah, there were six eggs.
Yeah.
So.
And then you get the yolkversus the white of the egg, you

(41:17):
know, Totally.
And I think now we'requestioning how.
How many times has heli been severed?
How many times was Bert severed?
How many times has cobell been severed?
You know, when they're goingto, like, they can take Mark into
this.
I know I'm getting way aheadof our methodology here, but going
to this cabin or the.
The terrifying car ride with the.

(41:38):
The poor puppy, you'rewondering, like, just let's leave
the dog out of it here.
Is that implied that he was.
When he was driving.
He's able to go to space.
That is severed.
We'll get all.
Get to all that.
But they set it up early.
Before we leave the egg idea.
Excuse me.
Before we leave the cold open.
You're talking about Helena swimming.

(41:59):
There's a little connectionwith Ms.
Huang.
She breaks her toy of someone swimming.
It's an Egan, I think it'ssupposed to be swimming.
And then, you know, it's kindof the idea there that Helena is
the toy that they're playing.
With.
And she's being destroyed too.
You got to destroy to grow orsomething like that might be the

(42:23):
message.
Or just have someone destroysomething because you're.
There's like an act ofvengeance involved.
I mean, Milchek definitely wasgetting back at her.
Yeah, that's wong for that.
Also interesting swimming thatHelena went through the ordeal of
almost being drowned.
Right.
Like, we've seen her in water before.

(42:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
I forgot about that.
Or I forgot to connect that.
So it's Ms.
Swank's last day, and she here.
She's treated so much lesslike she was in the first couple
episodes where she seemed incharge and almost scary.
And she's back to being a kid again.
I mean, part of that'sMilchick, right?

(43:04):
Like, he knows who.
Who ratted him out on the bigwords thing, which clearly gets under
his skin.
He's sick of everybody's shit, though.
He's done.
He wants you to consumefeculence or whatever.
Devour feculence.
That's what it was.
Devour.
Hear.
Hear from Milchick.
Man, that was a pretty ominousand threatening Christopher Walken

(43:26):
his birthday, just sitting inIrv's house apartment.
You think the dog's gonna be okay?
Oh, I'm not.
I'm not positive.
You know, he's got thatwalking always has that nice balance
of friendly and nice and funnyand menacing.
Another division.

(43:46):
The dividing lines, though,with innies and outies do get bolder.
Helena's Milchick's boss, right?
But heli is the employee.
And then we get.
Dylan at home is furious, butDylan at work is in love with Gretchen,
his own wife.
His any proposes.

(44:07):
It's wild.
You know, Adam has oftdiscussed how childlike these enies
can be.
Dylan's devotion to Gretchenkind of shows that it's childlike
love.
It's teenage.
Little arts.
Arts and crafts ring, too.
Well, yeah.
Yeah, that is pretty.
You know, like, he made.
He made.
Made it.
But it looks like it's alittle art, like, from school.

(44:30):
It is his only choice, butit's still.
Yeah, these arts and crafts.
Yeah, it is arts and crafts.
And he just thinks, I loveyou, marry me.
You know, that's how it works.
And with no thought onto,like, what does that even mean in
this world?
Does she stay there?
You know?
Yeah, exactly.
She come every day.

(44:50):
I suppose his idea was thatshe would come every day and they
would.
Make out, which is also like,kind of like a kid's idea of.
Of what adults do.
Right.
Where it's like.
Or what marriage is like.
Oh, well, they kiss.
Smoochie kiss.
Yeah, smoochie kiss.
Exactly.
I saw that episode of Bluey.
This is another example of,you know, we've talked again and

(45:11):
again about how unafraid theyare of just running straight through
mysteries and complexitiesthat other shows would.
Would milk for much longerperiods of time.
It's like when.
When Gretchen says I kissedyour any.
Yeah.
Like.
Well, they could have gottenway more value out of this.
They say all the quiet partsof that out loud.

(45:32):
Yeah.
You know, even down to like,he reminds me of who you.
How you used to be.
Yeah.
It.
I almost wondered if it wouldn't.
It's more devastating to thinkthan to have them say.
But it was, turns out prettydamn devastating for her to say out
loud.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It's funny too because like,Adam made such a good point about
like, the Innies are childish,but Dylan's outtie is like, obviously

(45:56):
his feelings are hurt, buthe's childish too, in a way.
Oh, yeah.
You know, he's.
Yeah.
We talked about him havingthis arrested development at home
there.
I mean, they even like, oh,I'm going to work for my paycheck
or maybe I won't.
Maybe I'll quit.
Like that's what like kids sayto make you.
You know what I mean?
He's just trying to make hermad and it's not even very sophisticated.

(46:18):
Right.
He's just gonna hurl words at you.
There's this idea thatseparation is a form of insanity.
That's not me mentality.
Included in all of this is anexcellent form and function kind
of shot, I suppose, with the camera.
Dylan commiserates with Hellyand the camera cuts him in half.

(46:41):
It's so good.
Such a nice shot.
He's framed really well a few ways.
I mean, I think one of theshots of the episode is him waiting
at the elevator, you know,after he's resigned and.
Yeah.
What?
The painting is Kier pardoninghis doubters or something?
Unbeliever.
Something like that.

(47:01):
His head is on the.
On the chopping block.
Yeah.
Donovan, you noticed somethingabout Akir painting from maybe earlier?
Like earlier it was this episode.
Go ahead.
I'd seen it a couple timesearlier, but I noticed it this episode,
this.
I'm sure we got to get theReddit report on this because I'm
sure they're all about it, butwe see someone in a blue Union army

(47:24):
looking uniform on the.
In a portrait on the wall.
I'm assuming it's Kier andCold harbor was a Civil War battle
between the army of thePotomac and Army of Northern Virginia
during Grant's Overland campaign.
Does this mean anything?
I don't know, but I feel likethey've kind of put, like, Kieran,
like Civil War duds before.
Well, and the company startedin 1865.

(47:46):
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
None of this is coincidence.
Cold harbor was known for being.
Even though the Confederateforces were overwhelmed, they had
good defensive positions andrepulsed the Union attacks after
a couple very, very bloody days.
So take that for what you will.

(48:06):
Good info.
You know, before we leave theGretchen and Dylan thing, for him
to say out loud, you're goingto use my body to cheat on me.
Yeah, yeah.
And then to go to hisconversation, his innie's conversation
with Heli, who has beencomplicit in the most gross form

(48:28):
of that that we've seen so far.
Kind of the theme of the earlyseason is what does it mean that
now both have slept with Mark?
You know, and I think most ofthe viewership thinks that she's
pregnant.
And what is that going to meanwhen she, you know, they're building
up so especially on the todayof the show where Cold Harbor's supposed

(48:49):
to be completed and somepeople think that there's something
going on with consciousness.
Is Helly going to go down into the.
The lower levels to completewhatever the project?
Is Gemma going to survive this process?
It's all so interconnected andit feels like the.
The net is tightening.
Someone who cannot separate, Ithink at least not through her own

(49:11):
will, is harmony.
She tries to take that softertone with Mark and it feels so disingenuous.
It's like someone unused todisplay, displaying care or showing
care.
In that snow scene with mark, I.
Think Mr.
Milchick being called out forhis vocabulary usage is interesting

(49:32):
when Hobel.
Not that she uses the.
The length of words, but shespeaks in a very antiquated.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like stilted.
Or if you want to be morenegative, pretentious.
What she's saying when she'sin the office, it's almost like,
oh, she's almost themouthpiece of Lumen.

(49:54):
You know what I mean?
And maybe they want her tohave this affectation.
Yep.
But they clearly don't becausenow we see behind the scenes with
Milchick that they're tryingto cut down on it.
But then she also carries itliterally into the wild.
You know, this is just funny how.
She brings that up because myvery next question in my notes was,
what's the demand for Milchickusing these simple words when all
the Egans and devotees usethese antiquarians equated terms,

(50:17):
that can definitely get alittle lengthy.
I don't understand why they'redemanding that of him other than
to connect with the workers.
Right.
Are they.
Do they really view them as children?
That's right.
Are they missing some of thethings that you're saying?
Yeah.
Everyone's anger here is beingused to level up.

(50:38):
Mark gives it to Milchek overthe phone.
Dylan gives it to Milchick,you know, a little.
Milchick gives it to Drummond.
A penultimate episode for sure.
Well, you got Heli realizingthat she's actually Milchick's boss.
Even though she has noauthority in that moment, she still
gives a look like, physically,I should.

(51:01):
You should think of the methat's in charge of you.
You know, I mean, she takestotal authority in that scene.
And then Mark and Milchekalmost talk to each other as equals
by the end of that conversation.
But then Milchick, when hesays eat shit, he is clearly only
punching up.
You know what I mean?
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(51:21):
Well, it's the line that workis just work that gets d.
Milchick.
And then he stares at the painting.
And I wasn't sure if that wassupposed to be a reminder to us to
remember the painting he got.
That was pretty insulting to him.
That.
That's what I thought.
When he's looking at thepainting, it's like.
It's.
It's a.
I thought it was a callback.

(51:42):
Well, it's also.
He's.
The painting is of an iceberg.
Right?
Yeah.
That like Mark doesn't fully understand.
Even Audi, Mark, who was likereally pulling at the threads, still
doesn't understand the extentof what's happening here.
Yeah, sure.
There's also the balance.
Yeah.
Literally underneath,physically, in this.
In the opening shots wherethey establish.

(52:03):
You know, there's all theseamazing shots for both seasons of
the office building or thefacility that they're in this time.
It was framed as an overheadwhere everything's perfectly symmetrical
and balanced.
I just find it odd thatthey're so cruel to Milchick.
I understand that they wouldwant to get him in line and do what
they want, but he's pretty.

(52:23):
They're pretty cruel becausehe seems like such a company man.
I mean, he is our only blackcharacter, really, besides Dylan
G.
He's the only black management character.
He got those paintings thatwere insulting.
Well, I think the lady whokind of works in a Secretarial position,
isn't she?
Is she management?
Well, she works.
She works right there with them.

(52:44):
Oh.
I thought she was like, anexecutive assistant or something.
Yeah, but she's.
But she still can.
Seems to be in control ofquite a lot.
Yeah.
Although, you know, they hadthat moment with the paintings.
They kind of shared that look.
Right.
Totally.
I.
I wonder if that's the reason.
I mean, I.
I don't have anything, like,super solid, but.

(53:04):
Well, it goes back to thatCivil War era.
Your vocabulary, right.
Like, you're using big words.
Like, you're getting.
You're not supposed to do that.
Right.
You're getting above your station.
You're getting uppity.
That does tell you what to do.
You know, Civil War era.
And.
And before, when you did notallow black people to read.

(53:24):
It was a law or learned to read.
It was a law in many places.
Adam said that they're sayingthe quiet part out loud.
But there is a lot leftunspoken between Bert and Irv.
Man, I love John and Turturro, man.
And.
And him playing off a walk in.
Yes.
Yeah.

(53:45):
So when he's like, I'm ready.
Yeah.
You know, and walking's like,we can't.
And he just keeps leaning in.
What a great.
You know, honest.
Like, I always liked him, butI don't think I appreciated him maybe
in the way I should have untilwatching the show tutorial.
I mean.
Yeah.
Watching Severance, he got mewith this HBO performance in Night

(54:06):
of.
Mm.
Yeah, that's where you got me.
That's a good one.
Adam, how much did you thinkabout Dolores Price from real life
and the show?
Say nothing.
I'm still thinking about it,to be.
Honest with you, becausethat's basically Bert's job.
I just drive.
I don't know what happens.
Well, and here's the dark partof it, and I'll bring it back to

(54:28):
say nothing.
If he's driving to a locationwhere he is physically committing
whatever act needs to be committed.
Hitman, whatever he's doing,but he's doing it in a severed sense.
He's.
He's not handing him, whoeverthe person is off to different authorities.

(54:49):
He could be doing the act.
Oh, wow.
And then walking back out.
And so that's when.
Another version of him.
Right.
It's a throwback.
And it's when his husbandsays, well, you've been with them
for 20 years.
And he says, well, the.
The severed floor has onlybeen there for 12.
He spent eight years, as.

(55:10):
I think you can read that, asthis severed hitman who was then
kind of put out to pasture andallowed to complete his career as
a good guy.
And so when his most innocentversion of himself falls for this
guy, of course he's going totake care of him.
Yeah.
It almost sounded like Bertwas severed at times and during that

(55:32):
speech.
But it's also possible that hewas severed in different ways or
in many.
I think he's been severed nowthat they've shown that that's possible.
Yeah.
I mean, I think you have to question.
The severed floor is oneextension of what they could have
been doing for some time.
Yeah.
You know, if you need peopleto do bad things for you, there's

(55:54):
a bunch of reasons for them tobe severed.
Right.
Like, they get to continuebeing normal people in society.
They can't testify.
They can't testify.
Exactly.
You know, very practical.
Yeah.
Version of it.
And I think, you know, it.
It somehow to continue goingback to say nothing.
This is what is driving thesepeople crazy who finally agree to

(56:17):
interviews.
And that's the whole tensionof the show.
Right.
I mean, in addition to thefactual things that happen.
But that they never get thatholding all of that in is killing
all of them.
And that's the same thinghappening here is.
But I love that.
I felt like Adam really justhit a bunch of stuff on the head.

(56:38):
And I love how this works in away that, like, ups the tension,
escalates it, but alsocontinues to ask that fundamental
question, like, where is the self?
Who is the self?
Point to the self.
And.
And the tension between, like,are these all different people?
Is there the possibility of acohesive whole?
Which Adam just summed up brilliantly.

(56:59):
Right.
Like, you.
Even if you're severed, maybeyou still have this inside you.
Rarely does, like, the, like,big theme and, like, the plot come
together in such a good way.
I just thought it was really good.
Turturro's sadness on his onthe train was just palpable.
Yeah, I know the wordcinematics overused.
But those scenes, especiallyafter boarding the train, did feel

(57:23):
more.
More like a movie thantelevision because you have to have
characters and actors tellwhat they're feeling through their
actions.
Because you don't have as muchtime in a movie, you know, that you
have to read their emotions alittle bit more.
Television writers will oftenjust try to fill in their 45 minutes

(57:44):
with saying that kind of stuffout loud.
I thought that was a geniusscene because it's.
He's upset that, you know,there is a.
This is.
I was gonna say withoutthinking about it.
There is a version of thefuture where they stay together,
but he's also saying, I'venever had anybody love me, not really

(58:06):
in this way.
And that someone is puttingthemselves in harm's way on his behalf.
I think there's.
There's glimpses of a smileand, you know, he's.
He.
That's why he's so good tutoro.
I mean, Irv is making it out alive.
I don't.
I think we have too much clockleft to lose him as an actor.

(58:27):
I think he's still tied insome way, but someone has made a
sacrifice for him, and he'ssad that that relationship can't
continue.
But acknowledging as validthat sacrifice and that love.
It's a really beautiful moment.
It feels more like melancholythan depressing.
You know what I mean?
Where they're totally.
Yeah.
Bittersweet.
I know that.
I know that this person lovesme this much, but it's costing me

(58:50):
all of this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's get toward the end here.
How about Cobell, lit by thatfire from behind to remind us of
Bert.
That fire.
Hellish look did we have.
This director has.
I believe it was a shield, though.
I apologize whoever directedif I'm misgender.
Yeah.
Have we had this director before?

(59:10):
Because I thought this episodeespecially was really well directed.
And I was looking.
Honestly, I was looking forBen Stiller when the credits came.
And the.
Directed by was somebody.
A name that I didn't recognize.
She directed episode six.
She's the one that directedAttila, which is the.

(59:32):
The dinner.
So she is a fan of lightingwith the fire behind them.
I love it.
I love it.
Gives you that sense of adevil there.
Yeah, she's very good.
Sorry to back up, but I wastalking about Dylan being childlike.
It reinforces Adam's idea.
The way I remember now, theway he screams.

(59:53):
Gretchen, that was not in hisusual vocal inflection.
He was a kid screaming at Mommy.
Yeah.
It sounded weird.
It did not sound like him.
Yeah.
So what are we to.
You know, there was a bigquestion of, is Harmony a good guy
now?
But I.

(01:00:13):
I don't think so.
Not at all.
I think she.
She wants the power that she'ssupposed to have because she evaded
the.
The severed technique.
Yeah.
I think she's gonna go withyou as long as it accords with her
purposes.
Because isn't that.
Unless we have a real.
Come to Jesus, isn't that kindof all we've seen from her this entire

(01:00:35):
series?
And even.
I mean, kind of.
Even the one where she, like.
Yeah, she has some tendermoments, but, like, she's after.
Sorry.
In the last episode.
But she's.
She's after her own goals andshe is not.
She's not going to quit that.
I think we have to ask themotives of Helena and Coble kind

(01:00:56):
of in tandem.
Like, maybe they're two sidesof the same coin.
One is desperate to get creditto be recognized, and one is.
I mean, are we to read thatthat's Koble's motivation here?
I mean, without any.
Without knowing what heraltruistic good intentions would
be?
I mean, I guess they're to sayMark, but, you know, I think Helena

(01:01:20):
is, if anything, maybe tryingto find a way to escape being who
she is.
Because she could play helifor a while, Right?
Well, either that or.
And maybe that even made her happy.
Yeah, I mean, I think that'swhy she watches Helly making out
with Mark over and over again.
The security footage.
Yeah, I agree.
But if they're able to changeconsciousness, if she could somehow,

(01:01:42):
like, get into Gemma's body orsomething, or use whatever nefarious
they have going on in thebasement to shed her skin, you know
that she's been in thisprison, really, Even when she's an
Audi, she's still in, like, agilded cage.
Yeah, she's in her shell.
I can see that.
Especially after this episode.

(01:02:02):
They're gonna Freaky Friday.
Someone.
I really don't know.
What.
Like, if Cobalt was trying tobe a good person, what is her end
goal?
Oh, I don't think she's tryingto be a good person at all.
Unless I'm trying to come upwith a reason to connect the dots
on, like, why that I'm stillunsure on what her motive is, you

(01:02:23):
know?
Yeah, I definitely, like, Idon't think I have, like, her entire
motive, but it, like, it waskind of like, okay, you brought me
up.
I gave you everything.
I gave you everything, andthen you took it from me.
That's not fair.
And you're giving me almostnothing, especially with firing me
here.
And then I would say, yeah,and then with the firing, it's like.

(01:02:43):
Honestly, I thought it kind oflike, reached back, the firing, where
it's like, okay, this explainssome of the, like, the anger.
Like, obviously, it.
It was fine by itself.
Like, she's mad.
But now it's like, ah, like.
Like I gave you my.
My youth, you know?
Yeah, well, and if she.
You know, her, the way thatshe moved away very early in the

(01:03:04):
season where she goes andconfronts Helena and Helena says,
Maybe you need a reset.
You know, we.
We inferred that somethingscary was happening there, but now
that we know that Bert was afreaking hitman for the company,
I mean, she's playing like, atrue dangerous game, and she knows
the stakes in a way that noone else on screen does other than

(01:03:24):
maybe Bert.
Right.
Maybe Burt would know.
Right.
But of our first round ofcharacters, like, I'm not.
Maybe Irving was getting atthe truth.
Mark certainly doesn't know yet.
I think they think somethingbad is happening.
But how could you guess thatthis company has silencers out there,
you know?

(01:03:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've been happy with this showto just kind of like.
Like, it's fun to think aboutwhat might be, but honestly, I've
been content to be like, it'sgonna reveal itself as it goes along.
And I'm.
I'm fine.
I.
I feel like I have enough tochew on each episode that I'm not
constantly, like, what's itgonna be?
What's it gonna be?
What's it gonna be?
Exactly.
And that's what makes it aboveaverage, above, you know, good.

(01:04:09):
It's not just a silly littlepuzzle box.
Yes.
I can enjoy the episode forwhat it is currently doing.
Yeah.
Here are some things to thinkabout while we answer these other
things that you can think about.
Exactly.
And I think it excels.
We've talked about thisalready more than once, but it makes
you think about things thatwhen you say them out loud, they
almost seem simple, whetherit's identity or how you experience

(01:04:33):
reality.
Any of these things it remindsme of.
There's a great interview thatRick Rubin did with Brian Eno, and
he says, how do you enjoy music?
Like, what really makes yousit up and take attention?
And Brian Eno says, if itsounds like something so simple that
I could have done it, how didthis not already exist?

(01:04:55):
That I remember.
But I didn't do it, and itmakes me mad.
And I'm not mad that I didn'tmake the show, obviously, but I think
there's something to likesaying, like, really, really simple
ideas that you experience in aprofound way that means a piece of
art has done something really great.
And I think after two seasons,we can comfortably say, obviously,

(01:05:16):
we have one more episode witha season to go that is excelling
at that.
That's a really good point, Adam.
If you do, like, cursoryreading and philosophy, they're getting.
You start out at, like, what's the.
Like, it seems silly.
Like, every kid knows, but ittests your assumption of what everybody
knows.
And I think this kind of doesthat where it's like, it seems so
simple, but it's testing thoselong held beliefs and assumptions.

(01:05:40):
Well, and there's a reasonthat, you know, they, they talk about.
We talked about the eggs atthe beginning.
They go to a, a compound pieceof land dedicated to birthing, you
know, like these ideas of likelife at its most primitive state
are constantly in your face inthe show.

(01:06:01):
Good stuff.
We reached the end of ourpodcast and the great thing about
a podcast our size is wenotice all that comes our way and
we often use it.
So you can head to the AlabamaTake, which is our production site,
click on podcast, scroll downto the this episode, probably high
on that list of podcast episodes.
You can click it and leave usan idea you had while listening.

(01:06:24):
I guarantee you it's worth hearing.
Thank you all for listeningand thanks to Adam and Donovan.
For Adam and Donovan, I'mBlaine and we hope Bert doesn't come
to your house to drive you away.
Take care.