December 10, 2024 • 41 mins
This week, the hosts get to the back half of FX/Hulu's series 'Say Nothing.'
For non-spoilers, they discuss the change in the show in tone and focus (0:55). For spoilers, talk about the specifics of the impact of the narrative's pacing, starting with episode six (5:10). The conversation also touches on the real-life implications of violence and the lingering effects of trauma on individuals and communities.
If you are interested in Descript as mentioned in the show, the link to it is: https://get.descript.com/31mu8d2mia99
Visit The Alabama Take site for more: https://www.thealabamatake.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey everyone.
It's the TV and streamingpodcast taking it down.
We're going to get into thingsin just a second.
As always, we'll have nonspoiler thoughts about the TV shows
we're covering and then abreak and then spoiler thoughts.
In case you're worried aboutgetting ruined on a particular piece
of television this week, it'sonly one show.
(00:23):
We've got say Nothing.
We're going to be talkingabout kind of the midpoint to the
ending of say Nothing.
That's a television show on FXHulu, about Ireland and North Ireland
struggle during the troublesof the 70s, 80s and 90s.
Stick around for that.
You don't have to run awaybecause of spoilers ever.
Because we do non spoilers to begin.
(00:47):
Alabama take projection.
It looks great.
Welcome Donovan and Adam.
They're here with me.
Finally.
It took a long time to getthem here.
Did it?
(01:07):
We, Donnie and we Adam, are here.
We divided up the FX Hulu showsay Nothing into three chunks and
this will be likely our thirdand final installment about that
series.
In case you don't know, itcenters around a It starts, I suppose,
with a few younger peopleinvolved in Ireland's IRA during
the 70s and examines what thatperiod would have been like for them
(01:30):
specifically, as well as somecomponents of what it would been
like for a few others beyondthat scope.
This is the non spoiler section.
We're in that final severalepisodes, but it's still non spoiler
nonetheless.
We'll get into how and why onsome of these thoughts, but let me
start with this as your opinion.
I've said nothing changed forbetter or for worse now that you
(01:50):
have either ended it or gottenreally close.
I still liked it, but therewas a distinct switch from the first
couple episodes where it feltmore unfocused.
But it's also pulling back, Ithink the camera a little bit, but
it's not quite as focused asthe first couple episodes.
So it almost not really, butit felt like there's a very much
(02:11):
a front half and a back half to.
This show, don't you think?
I guess we can get into theweeds on this.
But that's by design, right?
Yeah.
And I think it's like bydesign and honestly part of doing
essentially a biography formultiple people.
And I think it worked for me,but it was just like there's a front
(02:31):
half and a back half.
By weed design.
By weed design, yeah.
I do agree that I said lastweek maybe some of the accusations
against it is it was kind oflike a thriller espionage kind of
approach for a few episodes,obviously that we knew that that
couldn't last.
So you're really signing upfor a biopic more than anything else?
(02:56):
Is that it almost is fair orlike a very fair, a very odd biopic
in a way?
Yeah, because it does sprawl.
But no, it's still giving itthe thumbs up if we're just going
spoiler free here.
Oh, same.
And I'll say now that I'veseen the whole the kind of like tempo
(03:16):
and tone of the first, roughlyfirst half of the show really works
for me with what comes aboutin the second half or the latter
couple episodes.
Almost everything leading upto episode seven.
This the show is quite solid.
Like really solid.
Top notch.
I think episode seven makessay Nothing seem like a different
(03:37):
show.
And it takes a full.
It took me a full episode toget used to it and then realize,
okay, this is what we're doingnow and I'm okay with it after I
got the full episode.
Since this is the really onlyshow we're covering today, I'm gonna
go ahead and draw a spoiler line.
We'll put you a 30 secondbreak in here.
I need one last spoiler freething, please.
(03:59):
Yeah, I'm honestly afraid mywife might join the IRA after watching
this show.
Spoiler alert.
Dr.
Beth's joining the IRA.
All right, spoilers start now.
Yeah, we'll get spoilers started.
We'll give you a break.
We'll put you a little ad in here.
Okay, guys, thanks for listening.
If you're a podcaster, youknow how editing can take up some
(04:21):
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Taking it down in our homesite, the Alabama Take are really
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(04:44):
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It does all this without anysacrifice to quality.
Use the link in the show notes.
You'll be helping yourself aswell as supporting taking it down.
(05:11):
We'll start our spoilersection here.
And maybe a good jumping offpoint is Our regular listener, 87
Jeddah.
He remains a not anonymity heremains unknown.
I usually don't have troublewith that word, believe it or not.
All right.
He.
He writes another outstandingepisode, Fellas Red say Nothing,
(05:32):
a couple years ago, and it'swell worth your time, I think.
We're naturally inclined toview conflicts as good guys versus
bad guys, but the reality ofthe Troubles is that it's far more
complicated.
Even when taking theperspectives and justifications of
both sides, the inevitableconclusion is that this was maybe
is a very sad and largelyunnecessary situation.
(05:52):
Safe to say that the tensionstoday aren't what they used to be,
but the secretarian hostilityhas been lingering for about 400
years now.
And he recommends KennethBranagh's Belfast, which Adam has
seen.
And I don't know that the Donovan.
And I have.
I know I haven't.
I have none.
Yeah, yeah.
He says he recommends it foranyone more interested in this kind
of thing.
And then he agrees with Adamon Blitz that it was a great best
(06:16):
and he was hoping for a lot more.
And I read a Good thing withAnthony Boyle this week from New
York Magazine where he talked about.
He didn't want to do it unlessit was very vague on good versus
bad.
He kind of alluded to that inhis own phrasing.
What do you think?
Does it accomplish that?
For me, yes.
(06:36):
Although sometimes I do feel.
And maybe this is just like, protagonist.
Yes, but not biased, but Ican't think of a better word.
No, I haven't.
Where it's like, you'resomewhat more sympathetic to the
characters.
So, like, the girls, you know,really hurting a lot of people.
You're kind of like.
Well, you kind of forget aboutit, you know, or at least I sort
of did as I went on and then.
(06:58):
But I mean, for the episodewith the force feeding.
I haven't quite figured thisout in my own head, but obviously
that happened and it was horrible.
And I feel like it has a lotof resonance still, you know, as
a.
As a nation that operates aprison where we have done and continue
to do this kind of thing.
And I think it was.
(07:18):
I almost wish there had been alittle bit more of, like, no, like,
people really got hurt, buteven though people really, really
got hurt, it's inhumane andunethical to do this thing.
You know what I mean?
Like, the ends don't justifythe means, and instead it kind of
does for both sides here.
So it works with, like, thenot good versus.
Or the.
The muddying, like the goodversus evil.
(07:39):
But I almost wish that, like,we had been.
I guess what Annoys me iswe've got that like 24 mentality,
some of us, where it's like,you know, yeah, you can break this
guy's fingers with a hammer.
Like the Batman mentality.
Like, you can break this guy'sfingers with a hammer because it's
gonna, you know, he did 9, 11or whatever.
And it's like, I think that'skind of like a shitty way to treat
prisoners.
(07:59):
It is a myopic way of lookingat any kind of conflict or war, for
sure.
I'm less sure of my opinionafter watching more episodes, which
is like a credit to the show, right?
Mm.
The characters, we'll callthem characters because they are
characters on tv.
They're, you know, there arereal life people behind those figures,
(08:21):
which I'm sure we'll get intoat some point.
But their actions as portrayedon the show are always.
They themselves are analyzingboth what they do and what others
are doing through, like, theright and wrong lens.
And Donovan talked a lotabout, are you a combatant or are
you a terrorist?
You know, those kind of questions.
(08:42):
The back half of the show,they're tortured by that question.
Right.
So if they don't even know whoto root for.
So it's obviously tough for us to.
I'm with you.
That when they're.
When they're young and they're.
They're doing these things,you think, boy, this is complex.
But you are kind of, if notrooting for them, you know, you.
(09:04):
You kind of want to see howthey're going to do whatever they're
going to do.
Or there's a little bit of theRobin Hood element to.
Oh, yeah, you know, runningbombs over the border, that sort
of thing.
It is.
It is so hard to root againstAnthony Boyle.
And for.
I just wanted to chime in.
Can I chime in on Adam?
Absolutely.
(09:25):
For listeners, I don't know ifwe'll ever talk Adam into it, but
he has gone mustache.
Adam's always had facial hairas long as I've known him, and it's
usually in a form of a goateeand expanded type of beard.
But now he's got a very.
A very nice mustache going inthe vein of Anthony Boyle in.
In say Nothing.
(09:45):
And.
Well, it's funny that you sayexpanded goatee.
It's called grow what you can.
Hey, buddy.
Yes, Donovan?
You were saying?
I agree with Adam and that thedivision of the.
In my mind, the division ofthe show not so neatly into halves,
especially after the episodewhere they have been imprisoned.
(10:07):
We were young, we were Excited.
And then we have to live with it.
Like the fun is over at acertain point.
Like we have to live witheverything for the rest of our lives.
And that worked for me.
If you went to prison foreight years and were force fed every
other day and came back anddidn't know if what you'd done was
worth it, wouldn't you want adrink or two?
(10:28):
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
It reminded me a lot of, youknow that scene in Mad Men where
Betty says, I just want aclean start.
And her post don husband Henrysays, there are no clean starts.
Life goes on.
Wow.
I kept thinking of thatbecause that's.
We always make it about MadMen here or Arrested Development.
(10:50):
I know that that's our habit,but, you know, for a show about is
there such a thing as a clean start?
I couldn't help but crosscompare the two because.
And I don't think theynecessarily wanted a clean start.
If we're just focusing on thesisters coming out, you know, when
they said retired, you know,she says in maybe the top of episode,
(11:12):
next to last episode.
If we known this was going tolast as long as it did, we never
would have picked up a gun.
You know, they thought thatthey could affect change much more
in the immediate.
And the longer that it dragson, the less sure that they are.
When you watch somebody whoplanted a bomb that maimed people
and other bombs killed peopleand they had people killed and they
(11:33):
get.
They complain about the stateof their jailing, you know, it's
like a little kind of don andwhat you're getting into, like, how
do you, how do you not go eyefor an eye on that?
You know, because they were socommitted with their bodies still
to this idea.
But they exchange all of thattime and their, like you said, their
(11:54):
physical and mental health toprove a point that at the end they're
not so sure about anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Marion Price, the real person,you know, who admittedly did these
things by her own admission orsome of these things by her own admission,
she got.
She developed anorexia as aresult of the force feedings.
(12:15):
Anorexia nervosa.
And that's why she wasreleased from prison.
You know, that's somethingthat you live with for the rest of
your life.
What a substantial line thatwe would never would have picked
up a gun if we'd known it wasgoing to last 20 or 40 years.
Is it 40 years that she says.
I can't remember what time frame.
(12:35):
Yeah.
When she would have been speaking.
I related to that line so much.
I mean, how, how many timesjust in day to day life that you
think, oh, I'm going to go allin on this, but I'm not going to
go all in on it on a month.
You know, I'll do it, I willhelp y'all, but.
But I'll help for a week.
How's that sound?
Because you want immediate results.
And, and of course, theyweren't even in the culture we live
(12:58):
in where immediacy meanssomething totally different.
It felt very short.
Short, sorry.
It felt very resonant withkind of like the nature of somewhat
organized violent conflict too.
No, almost nobody starts a warbeing like, yeah, we're going to
be fighting this in 20 years.
Right.
And almost kind of like, notreally, but like if you start a war,
(13:21):
you, almost, almost everyoneis like, I'm going to finish this
quickly.
This is going to be easy.
I mean, like, look at us inIraq or something like that.
By definition of taking uparms in the way that we often do
as humans, unless it's like anarmed resistance, you kind of think
like, you wouldn't strike atall to start if you didn't think
you could win quickly.
(13:42):
Right?
Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.
And so it just, it seemsreally interesting like how we kind
of keep having thisfundamental assumption about violence
and organized violence andwhat it can accomplish and how it
accomplishes when the realityis it so often just drags on and
on and on or settles nothing.
(14:03):
There's a few things thatintersect in my mind that we can
not cross compare becauseobviously it's not comparable.
But when you look at thisgeneration in Ireland, there was
just something in the water.
If you were a boomer,essentially, that you believed that
you could affect, profoundlyaffect societal change.
(14:25):
And if you look here, even ifyou just look at something as comparatively
benign as electing Obama, andwe think, oh, we've made some change
and then we kind of get soldout on a lot of the things that were
promised on the campaign trailin 2008.
And then obviously by 2016, itfeels like it's just evaporated into
(14:46):
nothing.
And the back half of this showfelt like a very far more dramatic
life or death consequencesversion of that.
But, you know, you're talkingabout violence.
I mean, if we had recordedthis version of this show last week,
we wouldn't have had somethingto point to in America.
And now we do.
Someone took violence or tookmatters in their own hands with a
(15:08):
healthcare CEO and wow.
Now I'm not here to say oneside or the other.
Because this is not apolitical program, and that feels
messy and there's a lot tountangle there.
But people are havingconversations now that they wouldn't
have had without that.
Wow.
Yeah.
Like, we know that there areelements in our society who believe
(15:30):
that violence is efficacious.
Like, it's very incumbent onus to realize, like, to be like,
okay, what does that mean forme, someone living in this world
and in this country?
I really thought I was goingto be the one to first link Brendan
as the folk hero to the manwho killed the United Healthcare
CEO as sort of a currentincarnation of a folk hero.
(15:52):
And no, this is not apolitical podcast, but I'll just
add this.
I hope he.
DB Cooper's the hell out ofthe search for him.
He's off to a good start.
Yeah, we're talking reallybroadly and I love it.
Let's, if you don't mind, I'mgoing to pinpoint some things that
probably get to what we'resaying in some of these episodes.
(16:12):
By the way, the Anthony Boylepiece in New York, he does mention
some of what you're talkingabout as far as the ira, kind of
felt that they were right.
And even the people, they'renot totally involved with the IRA
believe that they were in the right.
Because I think it might havebeen Anthony Boyle or a friend where
he heard a mom tell a youngboy, go to the store and get us some
(16:34):
milk.
Here's some money.
And he says, but, mom, they're shooting.
And she says, well, they'renot shooting at you now, are they?
They're not.
They're not trying to kill you?
No.
Are they?
Right.
And that's.
That's it.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, they're not bombingcars because.
Because you're getting milk.
How much money went into theIRA from America?
(16:55):
Interesting question.
Don't know.
A lot.
Tons.
Private.
Private citizens thinking, oh,they're fighting the just cause.
None.
And obviously every act ofviolence would have.
Would push the needle one wayor the other.
Okay.
If a viewer like me, we'll goback to kind of where we started.
If viewer like me is ignorantto the history of this.
The hunger strike episode andtreatment of Dolores and Marion shocked
(17:19):
me to the phone.
I think it is the best episodeof the series.
It's really blind of me to sayand kind of dumb, but I don't know
that I've considered BritishLondon jails being as harsh or bad
when it comes to Americansversions of those, but.
Who do you think invented jails?
Well, I mean.
(17:39):
Right.
That's blinding me to say, whyisn't it the case that.
And again, blind, stupid.
I'm not a world traveler, butcops don't carry guns in England,
do they?
Not routinely, but they haveaccess to firearms.
Exactly right.
Yeah.
I knew they could grab one ifthey needed it, but it's not like
on their person.
Not usually.
I don't think, Adam, you couldvouch for this.
(18:00):
You've been there more recently.
If you're in an area that'ssecure, you definitely see like submachine
guns and that sort of thing on people.
But you don't.
Like an average beat cop.
I don't think so.
He just carries the stick thathe'll hit you.
How many times did you get the stick?
The billy club.
The knee still isn't the same.
(18:23):
Hunger strikes, a method ofprotest for the Irish since the Middle
Ages.
That's taken from Keith'sbook, which the show is based on.
I was enthralled by the episode.
It's a hard watch at times.
And knew when they sat herdown, excuse me, they sat Dolores
down in this chair, exactlywhat was going to happen.
I knew it was going to lead to that.
Not because I have knowledgeof the situation, but just like as
(18:45):
soon as they said hungerstruck, I was like, well, they're
probably going to force feed you.
And if I'm not mistaken, theycan also force feed these days, which
was really going to creep me out.
If they'd done this throughyour nose.
They do a tube through yournose, it's easier to keep the person
from trying to spit it out orchoke on it.
Yes.
I think that's a very modern way.
(19:05):
Since 9, 11, I was going to.
Say, I believe the UnitedStates has used that against prisoners.
And if you've ever had.
If you've ever beenhospitalized and had to have that
tube in your nose, down yourthroat, it's not fun.
It's not something you ask for.
It's horrific.
Yeah, it is.
And they fill your belly withwhatever that protein juice or whatever
(19:27):
powder they have there.
I mean, it's really right.
Like, it's the last.
It's stripping away the lastpiece of bodily autonomy you have.
Right.
It's taking away one of theonly choices you have.
Now you have no choices.
And that's a weapon.
Yeah.
It even played at times, the Mirror.
We could hold up to what'sgoing on with women's rights in our
(19:51):
country in differentcountries, you know, because there
was a couple of moments inthat episode where they were like,
no, no, no.
This is our body, you know,can't we at least do this?
Yeah.
And because that was such agreat episode in such a perfect microscopic
view, taking two charactersand showing you a reality you might
(20:11):
not have thought of, and itgives you a broader view of what
was going on.
I found episode seven sojolting and hard to get used to.
And at the time I thought,this is not that good.
Is this the direction they'regoing in?
I don't.
I don't.
Am I on board with this at all?
Episode 7's Theater People.
Great concept of what'shappening as some of these actors
(20:34):
in the IRA age, they'reputting on a show, and not least
of which is Jerry Adams.
What a smug guy they got toplay him.
That was perfect casting.
I don't know that I was thatbig of a fan of such a time jump.
It gave a violent montage thatconveys the issues of the show in
quick succession.
(20:55):
I thought it might have spreaditself too thin for a little bit.
This is not an option for thecreators, but they could have used,
you know, two or three moreepisodes, I think, to kind of flesh
out the.
The 80s.
It's funny you say thatbecause I was like watching this,
I was like, it could.
I almost never say it, butlike, it could have used one more,
you know.
Yeah, it was good enough.
(21:15):
Jolting from going to 22 yearold Marion to her final 10 or 15
years.
Well, she would have been inher 30s at the point that they leave
the younger actress.
Oh, you're.
But it's the same.
It's the same actress they'veused since she was a teenager, so
that's correct.
(21:35):
Yes.
Yeah.
They've been in 10 years, right?
It was eight years, I think.
So close.
It actually did work for methough, Blaine.
And I agree with what you said.
Where it did feel it like kindof got off of Gene McConville a little.
Like there was a little bitlike you were doing.
I got the thread and then thethread moved around a little bit.
But it did actually work for me.
(21:58):
Where it kind of feels likelife is slipping away from you after
an experience like that in prison.
Nice.
That worked for me.
That was the same effect thatit gave me that it was.
It was very jarring.
I agree.
I somehow agree with both ofyou that it was really jarring.
But, you know, like we.
We said initially, theinterviews provide this aspect that
we knew was had to be cominglater in the story of like, remember
(22:22):
when we were young hots doingadventurous Things and like, now
we're kind of having to livewith the consequences of it.
And that every year goes alittle faster than the one before
it.
And so, yeah, that suddenwaking up and being older and having
these problems that you have,real life stuff, but also profound
PTSD and whatever bodily scarsyou carry from eight years in prison.
(22:46):
All of these things on top ofyour, I don't know, system that you
view the world as crumblingbecause, you know, you have this
deep resentment of all yourold pal Jerry.
And kind of the wholestructure of your life is they do
such a good.
In a way, if it wasn't soviolent and it wasn't real life,
(23:07):
it's such a good explanationof getting older.
In the extreme, obviously.
In the extreme.
No.
Yeah.
I agree with you, though, Adam.
It is.
And even, like the montageitself, you said it so perfectly,
like, every year goes a littlefaster than before.
Even in the art montage, wherethe years are ticking, it starts
(23:29):
going faster as the years keep going.
And I think Adam nailedexactly why they did that.
The show would have taken astep into greatness, I think, if
it could have given us eithera wider view or a much more microscopic
view.
I think a focus maybe solelyon Maran and Dolus had a lot of potential
(23:51):
or an episode that showed moreof people like Jean McConville and
her kids.
Like, that's.
I get why time, resources,funding, episode numbers, but, you
know, Jean McConville was notthe only person that happened to.
(24:13):
And a couple of others.
Had you gotten four moreepisodes, you could have done probably
something like that.
Yeah, the.
My only.
Maybe not criticism, but Ilike, there was a bit where it felt
like Jean had kind of falleninto the background.
And I didn't love that becauseI felt like the first ones be more.
Even though they were morefocused on Marian and Dollars kept
(24:35):
reminding us that, like, hey,this happened.
His person disappeared.
This woman disappeared.
They were involved in this.
And I think it did a good jobof it without overwhelming it.
But, you know, I didn't.
I don't write for tv.
Maybe it would haveoverwhelmed it.
Maybe they felt like it wouldhave been too much.
The episode that really onlyhappened in the prison because, I
mean, there's.
There's some heartbreakingmoments where they let the sisters
(24:58):
be together.
Yeah.
You know, their mom dies, andthen they're holding each other and
they think we're going to die.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, she really thinks, youknow, that morning when they finally
come in and say that they'regoing to transfer them and they can
eat again.
I mean, she.
She thinks that she's holdingher dead sister and we think that
possibly she is holding herdead sister for a few seconds and
(25:19):
that they're just reduced tothese small girls who are up against
an empire, you know, in that moment.
And if you.
If you have the.
This is tricky to say becauseit's obviously real life stuff, but
if you're outside of thatroom, you lose the power of that.
Like they have to be human forthis whole story to be as messy as
(25:40):
it can possibly be.
Yeah.
And I agree with Adam in thatthey made a good choice with that
one.
Just being Marion Dollers for exactly.
Exactly what Adam just articulated.
I would even recommend thatone episode to viewers who only wanted
a piece of the story if theyknew a little about Marianne Price.
(26:03):
I would say you can watch this.
It's a standalone.
One thing I did love abouttheater people, despite it felt like
going in the wrong directionfor a second, is this examination
of how we become less radicalas we age.
You know, with Jerry it'ssuper obvious, but with Dolores,
it's complicated issue.
She still has the death of Joeand Seamus and Kevin haunting her.
(26:26):
But then there's Marian andshe's telling her sister, you know,
don't drink.
That's not good for you.
You're drinking because ofyour past.
And she's also helping with.
With the kids, but she's stillin the background teaching people
how to make bombs.
Yeah.
She's stayed committed.
Yes, she did.
I liked how they did.
This is.
I'm sorry, this is not at allto your point, Blaine.
(26:47):
But I was just thinking aboutthe two sisters relationship.
I really thought they did agood job without like rubbing your
face in it of portraying, youknow, Marian kind of followed Dollars
in.
Oh, yeah.
But Marian's the one withstaying power and $ism and how that
complicated and just like thecomplication of that.
(27:07):
Right.
Cause I mean, I do thinkthere's an almost unspoken thing
where.
With Marian.
Where, like, I wouldn't havedone it if it hadn't been for you.
I followed my sister and thenher sister, you know, maybe in her
view, abandons her.
Right.
Gives up.
Yeah.
Whether.
Whether she has to or whetherit's by.
It's great.
It's great to get a full story.
I would say this one's closeenough to a full story.
(27:28):
It's not necessarily a rich one.
And it's.
I don't think it's a fault ofthe creators.
It's just what they had Timeto do.
Well, it kind of turns into atakedown of Jerry Adams.
Yes, it does.
Which I was like, wait, isthat what this show's about now?
It's really attempting a fineline between portraying him as a
new villain kind of antagonistfigure and focusing on his betrayal
(27:52):
to their beliefs and desiresof the cause.
It's, you know, sometimes he'sjust a villain and sometimes it's
like he had to change or, youknow, or nothing was going to happen
ever.
I mean, that's the questionthat plagues all of us both in issues
large and small.
Right.
Like, is your North Star your.
(28:14):
Your pure youthful self or is it.
Are we supposed to change and evolve?
Adam, you mentioned Reddit'scomplaint straight from Ireland itself,
and I'm in agreement it mightbe biting off more than it could
chew.
A treatment like the Wire iswhere more details and expansion
of seasons and it would blurmore of who's right and who's wrong
(28:37):
would have been amazing.
I keep thinking that.
Blaine, a lot of yourcomplaints are or criticism seemed
to be that it took the middle road.
And obviously it has a sourcetext that we haven't read, but it
took the middle road between asprawling, multi season Wire esque
program and something likeBelfast, which I know you guys haven't
(28:58):
seen it and I stronglyrecommend y'all watch it, but yeah,
I'd love to.
Just about one family and onechild's experience, really, which
lets you get away with a lotof, you know, to tell a simple story,
to do anything simply, youhave to have a profound understanding
of it.
Right.
Like that's the whole thing.
If you really know something,you can explain it to a child.
(29:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
That story deals with that onthe face.
So you have that version andthen you have say nothing and then
you have something sprawlinglike, like a wire or Treme or whatever.
And to me, for a one seasonbook adaptation, this did as well
as it could.
But I understand yourcritiques there.
(29:43):
Yeah.
It's not one story with manylayers, but several stories with
each one or two layers, Ithink is what you end up with.
Well, and you're also thedecision to make it now when parties
involved are still living islike obviously more pieces will get
added to the puzzle,presumably as people die.
(30:07):
Right.
I mean, isn't there more to come.
Out probably with the Belfast project?
Yes, I think so, yeah.
And I don't know.
Did you see the news this week?
Did not.
Marianne Price is takinglegal, wants to take legal action
against the show for adepiction of her in the last.
Episode we'll sit on thatinformation for.
(30:29):
I thought that was.
Thought that was interesting.
Dollar says in thepenultimate, penultimate episode
about Jerry, he talks aboutpeace and justice and he can't even
tell the fucking truth.
I just found it veryinteresting that they're trying to
equate peace, justice andtruth all into one.
Almost.
Mm.
But is that.
That's almost like the.
(30:50):
Have you guys ever seen the.
It really comes from thefreelance world.
You can have cheap, good, fast.
Yes, that's right.
For like, three options.
It's like, pick two.
Like, is it almost the samewith those three?
It could be like, is the truththe truth is, like, the least.
Again, we're talking aboutsimplicity as, like, this ideal.
But truth is the least simplething, Right?
(31:12):
Like, it's the most simple,but also the least.
Yes, I agree with that.
I tried my best to apply theold Matt Zoller sites method.
What's its intent?
Does it succeed and was itworth it?
And its intention is topresent the Troubles as multifaceted.
But I think it might havegotten too disparate with its various
(31:34):
faces of the Troubles.
But of course it's worth it.
So it.
Two out of three I thoughtwas, you know, pretty good, especially
considering it held myinterest and all.
See, I feel that they threw alot down on the table and ended up
pulling it all together by the end.
Yeah, I thought it was close.
(31:55):
Just a little.
It felt disjointed to me a little.
But I think it kind of has to, Right?
Yeah.
Maybe this is not like, youknow, it's the opposite of like a
World War II movie wherethere's, like a clear march across,
like, there's an arc of, like,these inciting incidents happened.
(32:15):
Here's your bad guy.
March across this landscape.
Win like it's supposed to.
It just.
It's these people's entire lives.
Yeah.
There are some scenes thatknock it out of the park in this
show.
The best scene for me, not thebest episode, which I chimed in on,
the best scene came in thatpenultimate episode where the 10
(32:35):
kids find their mom's remains.
I thought that was powerfulstuff to spot, not even knowing a
lot about each of those characters.
It did a good job of what it had.
I think you don't need to knowtoo much about those characters.
You don't.
Right.
It's like their mother disappeared.
You get that?
The person who took care of them.
Mm.
I think that family hadproblems with the show.
(32:58):
Right.
Oh, did they?
One of the sons, Michael,maybe didn't like it.
You know, he said, my mother'sdeath is not entertainment.
Which is fair.
That's a fair thing to say.
The showrunners and writershave said they have had conversations
with others of the familytrying to say how they're going to
(33:19):
do it and be respectful.
But I mean, of course, across10 people, you're going to have a
spectrum of feelings about that.
Of course.
Well, it really gets down towhat is.
And even with the interviewproject, what is story.
Story is the most powerfulthing that you have.
But at the same time, I couldunderstand why you wouldn't want,
(33:40):
you know, let somebody elsetell their story, let me have my
life kind of.
I can even see how you don'twant it to be at the lake.
You remember how, like, the AVClub used to rank individual episodes.
Like, somebody being like, Igive the episode about my mother's
brutal murder.
Plus, you know what?
Where it's just.
It's like commodifies it totally.
(34:00):
I have Hulu, the not free version.
I sit through ads.
Oh, really?
Right, right.
You know, I mean, it just.
When you zoom out and youthink about that, it's like, man,
this is like, I am being toldan important story, but I'm also
being, like, advertised too,for insurance.
You know, this is.
This is weird, right?
They're not making this solelyout of the kindness of their heart.
Right, right.
(34:21):
Disney's not putting moneyinto this out of the kindness of
their heart.
Phenomenal job by casting,though, for older IRA members.
Especially when it comes toMarion, it's as if they were able
to realistically age a younger actress.
I.
They did a great job withDolers Marion and Brendan.
Like, they really look like.
Like you're like, okay, I see it.
(34:42):
You know, I'm not Blaine.
I think Marion is the strongest.
The way that she.
Both actresses have the samecountenance, expression.
The mannerisms are.
Yeah, right.
And it's not even.
Mannerisms would be, like, theeasiest thing to copy.
Right.
Like, oh, you hold a cigarettethis way or you this way.
That emotions were shown orwithheld or she was somebody, the
(35:06):
younger actress who really dida good job with things kind of washing
over.
I felt that was a strong suitof her performance.
And the.
Yeah, the.
The older actress, man,they're both so good.
They were both good.
I was really interested inyounger Mary, and I'd never seen
that actress that.
I remembered the mural ofBrendan Hughes, that's an actual
(35:29):
mural.
Young Anthony Boyle used tosee it when traveling.
It's powerful stuff.
Then he plays it in real Life.
So interesting that these.
A lot of these actors andactresses are.
Obviously, they're Irish, butsome of them are from Northern Ireland.
And I just wonder.
Yeah.
Do they feel like they'restepping in a minefield?
I mean, you're kind of kickingthe hornet's nest right.
(35:51):
When you're signing up to playthese stories on screen.
Yeah.
That might be why Boylepointed out he wasn't going to take
the acting job unless it wasshowing not both sides, but that
it was a complicated situation.
Yeah.
Which makes sense.
Just like Adam said.
I mean, like, we're.
These are literally people wholive side by side in the sense that,
(36:13):
like, the British were puttingup walls between.
Right.
Like different ethnicities,groups and neighborhoods.
And it's like you could.
You could walk.
Like, if there wasn't a wallthere, you could walk and see it
lies very close together.
I think I would assume it'ssomething that it.
I had to learn about this thisyear, yet.
I knew a lot about the BerlinWall growing up.
(36:35):
How old were you when Clintonwas president?
I can't do the math off thetop of my head.
Yeah.
Oh, I was in.
I was 12, 13 through 16, 17, 18.
Okay.
Because I remember.
I'm just surprised because I just.
With the Clinton being such abig part of the Good Friday Accord.
I'm sure it was on the news.
I was just at that age where Iwas rambunctious.
Yeah.
You had other stuff.
(36:55):
You had other stuff going on.
My dad was in the military andwent to Bosnia with the peacekeeping
mission.
And he said something that.
Which I thought was kind of interesting.
This would have probably been1996 into maybe spring 97.
And the troops.
The soldiers.
The American soldiers reallyliked the cranberry song Zombie.
(37:16):
Yeah.
Because they felt like itdescribed what they were seeing in
Bosnia where they.
They were like.
To me, to the outsider, you.
You folks are all the same.
I don't understand why you'rekilling each other.
And I thought that was kind ofinteresting because obviously to
those folks, there are big.
I mean, there are differencesbig enough to kill someone over.
It's easy, really easy tothink that.
(37:38):
Yeah.
Why is this happening?
Why you look exactly the same.
Can you even tell who's who?
Well, that's.
It's funny you say thatbecause, you know, obviously there
was the.
In Bosnia, there's a religiouselement as well.
Right.
With the Serbs are mostlyChristian versus you have Muslim
populations.
(37:58):
And he'd have soldiers that would.
Like.
My dad can remember hissoldiers on patrol being like, sir,
they all look White to me.
Like they couldn't figure likethat level of difference was really
confusing to American soldierswho are.
Who.
Because we under.
We have a different portrayaland understanding of race a lot of
(38:19):
times in our country.
I think that gets us to theend of what I would want to say about.
Say nothing.
Everything that I loved and Iwouldn't even say disliked.
Everything I loved and thoughtcould be better I've already said
and either continues orimproves in the.
In the last episode.
(38:39):
One of the things I actuallyliked from.
For myself with this show isbecause I like.
I knew some of this, but therewas a lot I didn't know.
I think it's cool to have ashow or a book that's like a jumping
off place where it's like if you're.
If you're actually interestedin learning more about this, you
can.
And I thought that's.
I thought that was cool.
I love these kinds of shows.
Yes.
Yeah.
I love that about these kindsof shows.
And when they're done evenhalfway good.
(39:02):
It's.
It's interesting and I'musually on board.
I'll.
I'll make a bold pronouncement.
This is going to make my best of.
For 2024.
Okay.
Thousand percent for me too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was wondering and that'ssomething we're going to bring up
in probably a week or two.
I'll get mine published on the site.
Top.
(39:23):
I usually do a top 10.
And the worst five, I tend todo those.
I do kind of love the worst five.
I love doing the worst five.
Say you.
You.
You watched Fear of theWalking Dead so that I didn't have
to.
My worst five.
I've got some beef with someof these shows that made me sit through
this or that.
All right.
We're here at the end.
(39:44):
You know, I know for a factfrom being online that people hate
banter.
They say put it at the end.
Guys, do y'all want to talkabout Alabama not making the playoffs?
We didn't deserve to make the playoffs.
I was ready to give you guysmarching orders on.
On things to.
To consume now post say nothing.
Well, Belfast, you've given mea stat that sounds like a great.
(40:06):
You guys got to watch Belfast.
You got to watch the wind thatshakes the barley.
Kelly Murphy's in that one.
Great.
I've seen that one.
That's good.
Yeah, that one's good.
You got to watch kneecap.
Yeah, yeah, that.
Okay.
I thought of that recentlybecause Talk.
About year end list.
That'll.
That'll be on it for film for me.
Yeah, for sure.
(40:26):
Yeah.
I wish I watched enough filmto make that kind of list, but I
don't.
And you got to watch DerryGirls if anybody out there.
Oh yeah, I've watched firstwatch that.
You got to.
It's funny that this is the first.
This topic has been likecircled around a lot.
Like you don't get a lot offirsthand accounts of the troubles
in mass media and so now wehave all of these things and now
(40:47):
say nothing.
Finally took it head on.
So if this is your entrypoint, like Donovan said, step back
and enjoy kneecap.
Step back and enjoy Dairy Girls.
You gotta watch normal people.
Oh wait, that has nothing todo with the trouble.
Sorry.
Yeah.
You guys compile some somelist for us.
We'll give that some air timesoon we'll end here.
(41:08):
It doesn't have to be allFollow us on social media.
Reach out.
Say hello.
Of course the podcast is inyour favorite podcast app every Tuesday,
except for an occasional breakwhich will I probably have one coming
up for the end of the year.
We'll talk to everybody else soon.
Hey everyone.
It's the TV and streamingpodcast taking it down.
We're going to get into thingsin just a second.
As always, we'll have nonspoiler thoughts about the TV shows
we're covering and then abreak and then spoiler thoughts.
In case you're worried aboutgetting ruined on a particular piece
of television this week, it'sonly one show.
(00:23):
We've got say Nothing.
We're going to be talkingabout kind of the midpoint to the
ending of say Nothing.
That's a television show on FXHulu, about Ireland and North Ireland
struggle during the troublesof the 70s, 80s and 90s.
Stick around for that.
You don't have to run awaybecause of spoilers ever.
Because we do non spoilers to begin.
(00:47):
Alabama take projection.
It looks great.
Welcome Donovan and Adam.
They're here with me.
Finally.
It took a long time to getthem here.
Did it?
(01:07):
We, Donnie and we Adam, are here.
We divided up the FX Hulu showsay Nothing into three chunks and
this will be likely our thirdand final installment about that
series.
In case you don't know, itcenters around a It starts, I suppose,
with a few younger peopleinvolved in Ireland's IRA during
the 70s and examines what thatperiod would have been like for them
(01:30):
specifically, as well as somecomponents of what it would been
like for a few others beyondthat scope.
This is the non spoiler section.
We're in that final severalepisodes, but it's still non spoiler
nonetheless.
We'll get into how and why onsome of these thoughts, but let me
start with this as your opinion.
I've said nothing changed forbetter or for worse now that you
(01:50):
have either ended it or gottenreally close.
I still liked it, but therewas a distinct switch from the first
couple episodes where it feltmore unfocused.
But it's also pulling back, Ithink the camera a little bit, but
it's not quite as focused asthe first couple episodes.
So it almost not really, butit felt like there's a very much
(02:11):
a front half and a back half to.
This show, don't you think?
I guess we can get into theweeds on this.
But that's by design, right?
Yeah.
And I think it's like bydesign and honestly part of doing
essentially a biography formultiple people.
And I think it worked for me,but it was just like there's a front
(02:31):
half and a back half.
By weed design.
By weed design, yeah.
I do agree that I said lastweek maybe some of the accusations
against it is it was kind oflike a thriller espionage kind of
approach for a few episodes,obviously that we knew that that
couldn't last.
So you're really signing upfor a biopic more than anything else?
(02:56):
Is that it almost is fair orlike a very fair, a very odd biopic
in a way?
Yeah, because it does sprawl.
But no, it's still giving itthe thumbs up if we're just going
spoiler free here.
Oh, same.
And I'll say now that I'veseen the whole the kind of like tempo
(03:16):
and tone of the first, roughlyfirst half of the show really works
for me with what comes aboutin the second half or the latter
couple episodes.
Almost everything leading upto episode seven.
This the show is quite solid.
Like really solid.
Top notch.
I think episode seven makessay Nothing seem like a different
(03:37):
show.
And it takes a full.
It took me a full episode toget used to it and then realize,
okay, this is what we're doingnow and I'm okay with it after I
got the full episode.
Since this is the really onlyshow we're covering today, I'm gonna
go ahead and draw a spoiler line.
We'll put you a 30 secondbreak in here.
I need one last spoiler freething, please.
(03:59):
Yeah, I'm honestly afraid mywife might join the IRA after watching
this show.
Spoiler alert.
Dr.
Beth's joining the IRA.
All right, spoilers start now.
Yeah, we'll get spoilers started.
We'll give you a break.
We'll put you a little ad in here.
Okay, guys, thanks for listening.
If you're a podcaster, youknow how editing can take up some
(04:21):
time.
Taking it down in our homesite, the Alabama Take are really
happy to use Descript.
Your whole team can join andbe a part of the editing process.
You can do multiple shows inDescript if you so wish.
If you have a podcast oryou're thinking about starting one
but you're kind of worriedabout the time commitment, Worry
not.
Give Descript a try with thelink in our show notes.
Not only does Descript giveyou a trustworthy platform to record
(04:44):
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Takes each speaker's audio andvideo, transforms it into a Word
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It does all this without anysacrifice to quality.
Use the link in the show notes.
You'll be helping yourself aswell as supporting taking it down.
(05:11):
We'll start our spoilersection here.
And maybe a good jumping offpoint is Our regular listener, 87
Jeddah.
He remains a not anonymity heremains unknown.
I usually don't have troublewith that word, believe it or not.
All right.
He.
He writes another outstandingepisode, Fellas Red say Nothing,
(05:32):
a couple years ago, and it'swell worth your time, I think.
We're naturally inclined toview conflicts as good guys versus
bad guys, but the reality ofthe Troubles is that it's far more
complicated.
Even when taking theperspectives and justifications of
both sides, the inevitableconclusion is that this was maybe
is a very sad and largelyunnecessary situation.
(05:52):
Safe to say that the tensionstoday aren't what they used to be,
but the secretarian hostilityhas been lingering for about 400
years now.
And he recommends KennethBranagh's Belfast, which Adam has
seen.
And I don't know that the Donovan.
And I have.
I know I haven't.
I have none.
Yeah, yeah.
He says he recommends it foranyone more interested in this kind
of thing.
And then he agrees with Adamon Blitz that it was a great best
(06:16):
and he was hoping for a lot more.
And I read a Good thing withAnthony Boyle this week from New
York Magazine where he talked about.
He didn't want to do it unlessit was very vague on good versus
bad.
He kind of alluded to that inhis own phrasing.
What do you think?
Does it accomplish that?
For me, yes.
(06:36):
Although sometimes I do feel.
And maybe this is just like, protagonist.
Yes, but not biased, but Ican't think of a better word.
No, I haven't.
Where it's like, you'resomewhat more sympathetic to the
characters.
So, like, the girls, you know,really hurting a lot of people.
You're kind of like.
Well, you kind of forget aboutit, you know, or at least I sort
of did as I went on and then.
(06:58):
But I mean, for the episodewith the force feeding.
I haven't quite figured thisout in my own head, but obviously
that happened and it was horrible.
And I feel like it has a lotof resonance still, you know, as
a.
As a nation that operates aprison where we have done and continue
to do this kind of thing.
And I think it was.
(07:18):
I almost wish there had been alittle bit more of, like, no, like,
people really got hurt, buteven though people really, really
got hurt, it's inhumane andunethical to do this thing.
You know what I mean?
Like, the ends don't justifythe means, and instead it kind of
does for both sides here.
So it works with, like, thenot good versus.
Or the.
The muddying, like the goodversus evil.
(07:39):
But I almost wish that, like,we had been.
I guess what Annoys me iswe've got that like 24 mentality,
some of us, where it's like,you know, yeah, you can break this
guy's fingers with a hammer.
Like the Batman mentality.
Like, you can break this guy'sfingers with a hammer because it's
gonna, you know, he did 9, 11or whatever.
And it's like, I think that'skind of like a shitty way to treat
prisoners.
(07:59):
It is a myopic way of lookingat any kind of conflict or war, for
sure.
I'm less sure of my opinionafter watching more episodes, which
is like a credit to the show, right?
Mm.
The characters, we'll callthem characters because they are
characters on tv.
They're, you know, there arereal life people behind those figures,
(08:21):
which I'm sure we'll get intoat some point.
But their actions as portrayedon the show are always.
They themselves are analyzingboth what they do and what others
are doing through, like, theright and wrong lens.
And Donovan talked a lotabout, are you a combatant or are
you a terrorist?
You know, those kind of questions.
(08:42):
The back half of the show,they're tortured by that question.
Right.
So if they don't even know whoto root for.
So it's obviously tough for us to.
I'm with you.
That when they're.
When they're young and they're.
They're doing these things,you think, boy, this is complex.
But you are kind of, if notrooting for them, you know, you.
(09:04):
You kind of want to see howthey're going to do whatever they're
going to do.
Or there's a little bit of theRobin Hood element to.
Oh, yeah, you know, runningbombs over the border, that sort
of thing.
It is.
It is so hard to root againstAnthony Boyle.
And for.
I just wanted to chime in.
Can I chime in on Adam?
Absolutely.
(09:25):
For listeners, I don't know ifwe'll ever talk Adam into it, but
he has gone mustache.
Adam's always had facial hairas long as I've known him, and it's
usually in a form of a goateeand expanded type of beard.
But now he's got a very.
A very nice mustache going inthe vein of Anthony Boyle in.
In say Nothing.
(09:45):
And.
Well, it's funny that you sayexpanded goatee.
It's called grow what you can.
Hey, buddy.
Yes, Donovan?
You were saying?
I agree with Adam and that thedivision of the.
In my mind, the division ofthe show not so neatly into halves,
especially after the episodewhere they have been imprisoned.
(10:07):
We were young, we were Excited.
And then we have to live with it.
Like the fun is over at acertain point.
Like we have to live witheverything for the rest of our lives.
And that worked for me.
If you went to prison foreight years and were force fed every
other day and came back anddidn't know if what you'd done was
worth it, wouldn't you want adrink or two?
(10:28):
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
It reminded me a lot of, youknow that scene in Mad Men where
Betty says, I just want aclean start.
And her post don husband Henrysays, there are no clean starts.
Life goes on.
Wow.
I kept thinking of thatbecause that's.
We always make it about MadMen here or Arrested Development.
(10:50):
I know that that's our habit,but, you know, for a show about is
there such a thing as a clean start?
I couldn't help but crosscompare the two because.
And I don't think theynecessarily wanted a clean start.
If we're just focusing on thesisters coming out, you know, when
they said retired, you know,she says in maybe the top of episode,
(11:12):
next to last episode.
If we known this was going tolast as long as it did, we never
would have picked up a gun.
You know, they thought thatthey could affect change much more
in the immediate.
And the longer that it dragson, the less sure that they are.
When you watch somebody whoplanted a bomb that maimed people
and other bombs killed peopleand they had people killed and they
(11:33):
get.
They complain about the stateof their jailing, you know, it's
like a little kind of don andwhat you're getting into, like, how
do you, how do you not go eyefor an eye on that?
You know, because they were socommitted with their bodies still
to this idea.
But they exchange all of thattime and their, like you said, their
(11:54):
physical and mental health toprove a point that at the end they're
not so sure about anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Marion Price, the real person,you know, who admittedly did these
things by her own admission orsome of these things by her own admission,
she got.
She developed anorexia as aresult of the force feedings.
(12:15):
Anorexia nervosa.
And that's why she wasreleased from prison.
You know, that's somethingthat you live with for the rest of
your life.
What a substantial line thatwe would never would have picked
up a gun if we'd known it wasgoing to last 20 or 40 years.
Is it 40 years that she says.
I can't remember what time frame.
(12:35):
Yeah.
When she would have been speaking.
I related to that line so much.
I mean, how, how many timesjust in day to day life that you
think, oh, I'm going to go allin on this, but I'm not going to
go all in on it on a month.
You know, I'll do it, I willhelp y'all, but.
But I'll help for a week.
How's that sound?
Because you want immediate results.
And, and of course, theyweren't even in the culture we live
(12:58):
in where immediacy meanssomething totally different.
It felt very short.
Short, sorry.
It felt very resonant withkind of like the nature of somewhat
organized violent conflict too.
No, almost nobody starts a warbeing like, yeah, we're going to
be fighting this in 20 years.
Right.
And almost kind of like, notreally, but like if you start a war,
(13:21):
you, almost, almost everyoneis like, I'm going to finish this
quickly.
This is going to be easy.
I mean, like, look at us inIraq or something like that.
By definition of taking uparms in the way that we often do
as humans, unless it's like anarmed resistance, you kind of think
like, you wouldn't strike atall to start if you didn't think
you could win quickly.
(13:42):
Right?
Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.
And so it just, it seemsreally interesting like how we kind
of keep having thisfundamental assumption about violence
and organized violence andwhat it can accomplish and how it
accomplishes when the realityis it so often just drags on and
on and on or settles nothing.
(14:03):
There's a few things thatintersect in my mind that we can
not cross compare becauseobviously it's not comparable.
But when you look at thisgeneration in Ireland, there was
just something in the water.
If you were a boomer,essentially, that you believed that
you could affect, profoundlyaffect societal change.
(14:25):
And if you look here, even ifyou just look at something as comparatively
benign as electing Obama, andwe think, oh, we've made some change
and then we kind of get soldout on a lot of the things that were
promised on the campaign trailin 2008.
And then obviously by 2016, itfeels like it's just evaporated into
(14:46):
nothing.
And the back half of this showfelt like a very far more dramatic
life or death consequencesversion of that.
But, you know, you're talkingabout violence.
I mean, if we had recordedthis version of this show last week,
we wouldn't have had somethingto point to in America.
And now we do.
Someone took violence or tookmatters in their own hands with a
(15:08):
healthcare CEO and wow.
Now I'm not here to say oneside or the other.
Because this is not apolitical program, and that feels
messy and there's a lot tountangle there.
But people are havingconversations now that they wouldn't
have had without that.
Wow.
Yeah.
Like, we know that there areelements in our society who believe
(15:30):
that violence is efficacious.
Like, it's very incumbent onus to realize, like, to be like,
okay, what does that mean forme, someone living in this world
and in this country?
I really thought I was goingto be the one to first link Brendan
as the folk hero to the manwho killed the United Healthcare
CEO as sort of a currentincarnation of a folk hero.
(15:52):
And no, this is not apolitical podcast, but I'll just
add this.
I hope he.
DB Cooper's the hell out ofthe search for him.
He's off to a good start.
Yeah, we're talking reallybroadly and I love it.
Let's, if you don't mind, I'mgoing to pinpoint some things that
probably get to what we'resaying in some of these episodes.
(16:12):
By the way, the Anthony Boylepiece in New York, he does mention
some of what you're talkingabout as far as the ira, kind of
felt that they were right.
And even the people, they'renot totally involved with the IRA
believe that they were in the right.
Because I think it might havebeen Anthony Boyle or a friend where
he heard a mom tell a youngboy, go to the store and get us some
(16:34):
milk.
Here's some money.
And he says, but, mom, they're shooting.
And she says, well, they'renot shooting at you now, are they?
They're not.
They're not trying to kill you?
No.
Are they?
Right.
And that's.
That's it.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, they're not bombingcars because.
Because you're getting milk.
How much money went into theIRA from America?
(16:55):
Interesting question.
Don't know.
A lot.
Tons.
Private.
Private citizens thinking, oh,they're fighting the just cause.
None.
And obviously every act ofviolence would have.
Would push the needle one wayor the other.
Okay.
If a viewer like me, we'll goback to kind of where we started.
If viewer like me is ignorantto the history of this.
The hunger strike episode andtreatment of Dolores and Marion shocked
(17:19):
me to the phone.
I think it is the best episodeof the series.
It's really blind of me to sayand kind of dumb, but I don't know
that I've considered BritishLondon jails being as harsh or bad
when it comes to Americansversions of those, but.
Who do you think invented jails?
Well, I mean.
(17:39):
Right.
That's blinding me to say, whyisn't it the case that.
And again, blind, stupid.
I'm not a world traveler, butcops don't carry guns in England,
do they?
Not routinely, but they haveaccess to firearms.
Exactly right.
Yeah.
I knew they could grab one ifthey needed it, but it's not like
on their person.
Not usually.
I don't think, Adam, you couldvouch for this.
(18:00):
You've been there more recently.
If you're in an area that'ssecure, you definitely see like submachine
guns and that sort of thing on people.
But you don't.
Like an average beat cop.
I don't think so.
He just carries the stick thathe'll hit you.
How many times did you get the stick?
The billy club.
The knee still isn't the same.
(18:23):
Hunger strikes, a method ofprotest for the Irish since the Middle
Ages.
That's taken from Keith'sbook, which the show is based on.
I was enthralled by the episode.
It's a hard watch at times.
And knew when they sat herdown, excuse me, they sat Dolores
down in this chair, exactlywhat was going to happen.
I knew it was going to lead to that.
Not because I have knowledgeof the situation, but just like as
(18:45):
soon as they said hungerstruck, I was like, well, they're
probably going to force feed you.
And if I'm not mistaken, theycan also force feed these days, which
was really going to creep me out.
If they'd done this throughyour nose.
They do a tube through yournose, it's easier to keep the person
from trying to spit it out orchoke on it.
Yes.
I think that's a very modern way.
(19:05):
Since 9, 11, I was going to.
Say, I believe the UnitedStates has used that against prisoners.
And if you've ever had.
If you've ever beenhospitalized and had to have that
tube in your nose, down yourthroat, it's not fun.
It's not something you ask for.
It's horrific.
Yeah, it is.
And they fill your belly withwhatever that protein juice or whatever
(19:27):
powder they have there.
I mean, it's really right.
Like, it's the last.
It's stripping away the lastpiece of bodily autonomy you have.
Right.
It's taking away one of theonly choices you have.
Now you have no choices.
And that's a weapon.
Yeah.
It even played at times, the Mirror.
We could hold up to what'sgoing on with women's rights in our
(19:51):
country in differentcountries, you know, because there
was a couple of moments inthat episode where they were like,
no, no, no.
This is our body, you know,can't we at least do this?
Yeah.
And because that was such agreat episode in such a perfect microscopic
view, taking two charactersand showing you a reality you might
(20:11):
not have thought of, and itgives you a broader view of what
was going on.
I found episode seven sojolting and hard to get used to.
And at the time I thought,this is not that good.
Is this the direction they'regoing in?
I don't.
I don't.
Am I on board with this at all?
Episode 7's Theater People.
Great concept of what'shappening as some of these actors
(20:34):
in the IRA age, they'reputting on a show, and not least
of which is Jerry Adams.
What a smug guy they got toplay him.
That was perfect casting.
I don't know that I was thatbig of a fan of such a time jump.
It gave a violent montage thatconveys the issues of the show in
quick succession.
(20:55):
I thought it might have spreaditself too thin for a little bit.
This is not an option for thecreators, but they could have used,
you know, two or three moreepisodes, I think, to kind of flesh
out the.
The 80s.
It's funny you say thatbecause I was like watching this,
I was like, it could.
I almost never say it, butlike, it could have used one more,
you know.
Yeah, it was good enough.
(21:15):
Jolting from going to 22 yearold Marion to her final 10 or 15
years.
Well, she would have been inher 30s at the point that they leave
the younger actress.
Oh, you're.
But it's the same.
It's the same actress they'veused since she was a teenager, so
that's correct.
(21:35):
Yes.
Yeah.
They've been in 10 years, right?
It was eight years, I think.
So close.
It actually did work for methough, Blaine.
And I agree with what you said.
Where it did feel it like kindof got off of Gene McConville a little.
Like there was a little bitlike you were doing.
I got the thread and then thethread moved around a little bit.
But it did actually work for me.
(21:58):
Where it kind of feels likelife is slipping away from you after
an experience like that in prison.
Nice.
That worked for me.
That was the same effect thatit gave me that it was.
It was very jarring.
I agree.
I somehow agree with both ofyou that it was really jarring.
But, you know, like we.
We said initially, theinterviews provide this aspect that
we knew was had to be cominglater in the story of like, remember
(22:22):
when we were young hots doingadventurous Things and like, now
we're kind of having to livewith the consequences of it.
And that every year goes alittle faster than the one before
it.
And so, yeah, that suddenwaking up and being older and having
these problems that you have,real life stuff, but also profound
PTSD and whatever bodily scarsyou carry from eight years in prison.
(22:46):
All of these things on top ofyour, I don't know, system that you
view the world as crumblingbecause, you know, you have this
deep resentment of all yourold pal Jerry.
And kind of the wholestructure of your life is they do
such a good.
In a way, if it wasn't soviolent and it wasn't real life,
(23:07):
it's such a good explanationof getting older.
In the extreme, obviously.
In the extreme.
No.
Yeah.
I agree with you, though, Adam.
It is.
And even, like the montageitself, you said it so perfectly,
like, every year goes a littlefaster than before.
Even in the art montage, wherethe years are ticking, it starts
(23:29):
going faster as the years keep going.
And I think Adam nailedexactly why they did that.
The show would have taken astep into greatness, I think, if
it could have given us eithera wider view or a much more microscopic
view.
I think a focus maybe solelyon Maran and Dolus had a lot of potential
(23:51):
or an episode that showed moreof people like Jean McConville and
her kids.
Like, that's.
I get why time, resources,funding, episode numbers, but, you
know, Jean McConville was notthe only person that happened to.
(24:13):
And a couple of others.
Had you gotten four moreepisodes, you could have done probably
something like that.
Yeah, the.
My only.
Maybe not criticism, but Ilike, there was a bit where it felt
like Jean had kind of falleninto the background.
And I didn't love that becauseI felt like the first ones be more.
Even though they were morefocused on Marian and Dollars kept
(24:35):
reminding us that, like, hey,this happened.
His person disappeared.
This woman disappeared.
They were involved in this.
And I think it did a good jobof it without overwhelming it.
But, you know, I didn't.
I don't write for tv.
Maybe it would haveoverwhelmed it.
Maybe they felt like it wouldhave been too much.
The episode that really onlyhappened in the prison because, I
mean, there's.
There's some heartbreakingmoments where they let the sisters
(24:58):
be together.
Yeah.
You know, their mom dies, andthen they're holding each other and
they think we're going to die.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, she really thinks, youknow, that morning when they finally
come in and say that they'regoing to transfer them and they can
eat again.
I mean, she.
She thinks that she's holdingher dead sister and we think that
possibly she is holding herdead sister for a few seconds and
(25:19):
that they're just reduced tothese small girls who are up against
an empire, you know, in that moment.
And if you.
If you have the.
This is tricky to say becauseit's obviously real life stuff, but
if you're outside of thatroom, you lose the power of that.
Like they have to be human forthis whole story to be as messy as
(25:40):
it can possibly be.
Yeah.
And I agree with Adam in thatthey made a good choice with that
one.
Just being Marion Dollers for exactly.
Exactly what Adam just articulated.
I would even recommend thatone episode to viewers who only wanted
a piece of the story if theyknew a little about Marianne Price.
(26:03):
I would say you can watch this.
It's a standalone.
One thing I did love abouttheater people, despite it felt like
going in the wrong directionfor a second, is this examination
of how we become less radicalas we age.
You know, with Jerry it'ssuper obvious, but with Dolores,
it's complicated issue.
She still has the death of Joeand Seamus and Kevin haunting her.
(26:26):
But then there's Marian andshe's telling her sister, you know,
don't drink.
That's not good for you.
You're drinking because ofyour past.
And she's also helping with.
With the kids, but she's stillin the background teaching people
how to make bombs.
Yeah.
She's stayed committed.
Yes, she did.
I liked how they did.
This is.
I'm sorry, this is not at allto your point, Blaine.
(26:47):
But I was just thinking aboutthe two sisters relationship.
I really thought they did agood job without like rubbing your
face in it of portraying, youknow, Marian kind of followed Dollars
in.
Oh, yeah.
But Marian's the one withstaying power and $ism and how that
complicated and just like thecomplication of that.
(27:07):
Right.
Cause I mean, I do thinkthere's an almost unspoken thing
where.
With Marian.
Where, like, I wouldn't havedone it if it hadn't been for you.
I followed my sister and thenher sister, you know, maybe in her
view, abandons her.
Right.
Gives up.
Yeah.
Whether.
Whether she has to or whetherit's by.
It's great.
It's great to get a full story.
I would say this one's closeenough to a full story.
(27:28):
It's not necessarily a rich one.
And it's.
I don't think it's a fault ofthe creators.
It's just what they had Timeto do.
Well, it kind of turns into atakedown of Jerry Adams.
Yes, it does.
Which I was like, wait, isthat what this show's about now?
It's really attempting a fineline between portraying him as a
new villain kind of antagonistfigure and focusing on his betrayal
(27:52):
to their beliefs and desiresof the cause.
It's, you know, sometimes he'sjust a villain and sometimes it's
like he had to change or, youknow, or nothing was going to happen
ever.
I mean, that's the questionthat plagues all of us both in issues
large and small.
Right.
Like, is your North Star your.
(28:14):
Your pure youthful self or is it.
Are we supposed to change and evolve?
Adam, you mentioned Reddit'scomplaint straight from Ireland itself,
and I'm in agreement it mightbe biting off more than it could
chew.
A treatment like the Wire iswhere more details and expansion
of seasons and it would blurmore of who's right and who's wrong
(28:37):
would have been amazing.
I keep thinking that.
Blaine, a lot of yourcomplaints are or criticism seemed
to be that it took the middle road.
And obviously it has a sourcetext that we haven't read, but it
took the middle road between asprawling, multi season Wire esque
program and something likeBelfast, which I know you guys haven't
(28:58):
seen it and I stronglyrecommend y'all watch it, but yeah,
I'd love to.
Just about one family and onechild's experience, really, which
lets you get away with a lotof, you know, to tell a simple story,
to do anything simply, youhave to have a profound understanding
of it.
Right.
Like that's the whole thing.
If you really know something,you can explain it to a child.
(29:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
That story deals with that onthe face.
So you have that version andthen you have say nothing and then
you have something sprawlinglike, like a wire or Treme or whatever.
And to me, for a one seasonbook adaptation, this did as well
as it could.
But I understand yourcritiques there.
(29:43):
Yeah.
It's not one story with manylayers, but several stories with
each one or two layers, Ithink is what you end up with.
Well, and you're also thedecision to make it now when parties
involved are still living islike obviously more pieces will get
added to the puzzle,presumably as people die.
(30:07):
Right.
I mean, isn't there more to come.
Out probably with the Belfast project?
Yes, I think so, yeah.
And I don't know.
Did you see the news this week?
Did not.
Marianne Price is takinglegal, wants to take legal action
against the show for adepiction of her in the last.
Episode we'll sit on thatinformation for.
(30:29):
I thought that was.
Thought that was interesting.
Dollar says in thepenultimate, penultimate episode
about Jerry, he talks aboutpeace and justice and he can't even
tell the fucking truth.
I just found it veryinteresting that they're trying to
equate peace, justice andtruth all into one.
Almost.
Mm.
But is that.
That's almost like the.
(30:50):
Have you guys ever seen the.
It really comes from thefreelance world.
You can have cheap, good, fast.
Yes, that's right.
For like, three options.
It's like, pick two.
Like, is it almost the samewith those three?
It could be like, is the truththe truth is, like, the least.
Again, we're talking aboutsimplicity as, like, this ideal.
But truth is the least simplething, Right?
(31:12):
Like, it's the most simple,but also the least.
Yes, I agree with that.
I tried my best to apply theold Matt Zoller sites method.
What's its intent?
Does it succeed and was itworth it?
And its intention is topresent the Troubles as multifaceted.
But I think it might havegotten too disparate with its various
(31:34):
faces of the Troubles.
But of course it's worth it.
So it.
Two out of three I thoughtwas, you know, pretty good, especially
considering it held myinterest and all.
See, I feel that they threw alot down on the table and ended up
pulling it all together by the end.
Yeah, I thought it was close.
(31:55):
Just a little.
It felt disjointed to me a little.
But I think it kind of has to, Right?
Yeah.
Maybe this is not like, youknow, it's the opposite of like a
World War II movie wherethere's, like a clear march across,
like, there's an arc of, like,these inciting incidents happened.
(32:15):
Here's your bad guy.
March across this landscape.
Win like it's supposed to.
It just.
It's these people's entire lives.
Yeah.
There are some scenes thatknock it out of the park in this
show.
The best scene for me, not thebest episode, which I chimed in on,
the best scene came in thatpenultimate episode where the 10
(32:35):
kids find their mom's remains.
I thought that was powerfulstuff to spot, not even knowing a
lot about each of those characters.
It did a good job of what it had.
I think you don't need to knowtoo much about those characters.
You don't.
Right.
It's like their mother disappeared.
You get that?
The person who took care of them.
Mm.
I think that family hadproblems with the show.
(32:58):
Right.
Oh, did they?
One of the sons, Michael,maybe didn't like it.
You know, he said, my mother'sdeath is not entertainment.
Which is fair.
That's a fair thing to say.
The showrunners and writershave said they have had conversations
with others of the familytrying to say how they're going to
(33:19):
do it and be respectful.
But I mean, of course, across10 people, you're going to have a
spectrum of feelings about that.
Of course.
Well, it really gets down towhat is.
And even with the interviewproject, what is story.
Story is the most powerfulthing that you have.
But at the same time, I couldunderstand why you wouldn't want,
(33:40):
you know, let somebody elsetell their story, let me have my
life kind of.
I can even see how you don'twant it to be at the lake.
You remember how, like, the AVClub used to rank individual episodes.
Like, somebody being like, Igive the episode about my mother's
brutal murder.
Plus, you know what?
Where it's just.
It's like commodifies it totally.
(34:00):
I have Hulu, the not free version.
I sit through ads.
Oh, really?
Right, right.
You know, I mean, it just.
When you zoom out and youthink about that, it's like, man,
this is like, I am being toldan important story, but I'm also
being, like, advertised too,for insurance.
You know, this is.
This is weird, right?
They're not making this solelyout of the kindness of their heart.
Right, right.
(34:21):
Disney's not putting moneyinto this out of the kindness of
their heart.
Phenomenal job by casting,though, for older IRA members.
Especially when it comes toMarion, it's as if they were able
to realistically age a younger actress.
I.
They did a great job withDolers Marion and Brendan.
Like, they really look like.
Like you're like, okay, I see it.
(34:42):
You know, I'm not Blaine.
I think Marion is the strongest.
The way that she.
Both actresses have the samecountenance, expression.
The mannerisms are.
Yeah, right.
And it's not even.
Mannerisms would be, like, theeasiest thing to copy.
Right.
Like, oh, you hold a cigarettethis way or you this way.
That emotions were shown orwithheld or she was somebody, the
(35:06):
younger actress who really dida good job with things kind of washing
over.
I felt that was a strong suitof her performance.
And the.
Yeah, the.
The older actress, man,they're both so good.
They were both good.
I was really interested inyounger Mary, and I'd never seen
that actress that.
I remembered the mural ofBrendan Hughes, that's an actual
(35:29):
mural.
Young Anthony Boyle used tosee it when traveling.
It's powerful stuff.
Then he plays it in real Life.
So interesting that these.
A lot of these actors andactresses are.
Obviously, they're Irish, butsome of them are from Northern Ireland.
And I just wonder.
Yeah.
Do they feel like they'restepping in a minefield?
I mean, you're kind of kickingthe hornet's nest right.
(35:51):
When you're signing up to playthese stories on screen.
Yeah.
That might be why Boylepointed out he wasn't going to take
the acting job unless it wasshowing not both sides, but that
it was a complicated situation.
Yeah.
Which makes sense.
Just like Adam said.
I mean, like, we're.
These are literally people wholive side by side in the sense that,
(36:13):
like, the British were puttingup walls between.
Right.
Like different ethnicities,groups and neighborhoods.
And it's like you could.
You could walk.
Like, if there wasn't a wallthere, you could walk and see it
lies very close together.
I think I would assume it'ssomething that it.
I had to learn about this thisyear, yet.
I knew a lot about the BerlinWall growing up.
(36:35):
How old were you when Clintonwas president?
I can't do the math off thetop of my head.
Yeah.
Oh, I was in.
I was 12, 13 through 16, 17, 18.
Okay.
Because I remember.
I'm just surprised because I just.
With the Clinton being such abig part of the Good Friday Accord.
I'm sure it was on the news.
I was just at that age where Iwas rambunctious.
Yeah.
You had other stuff.
(36:55):
You had other stuff going on.
My dad was in the military andwent to Bosnia with the peacekeeping
mission.
And he said something that.
Which I thought was kind of interesting.
This would have probably been1996 into maybe spring 97.
And the troops.
The soldiers.
The American soldiers reallyliked the cranberry song Zombie.
(37:16):
Yeah.
Because they felt like itdescribed what they were seeing in
Bosnia where they.
They were like.
To me, to the outsider, you.
You folks are all the same.
I don't understand why you'rekilling each other.
And I thought that was kind ofinteresting because obviously to
those folks, there are big.
I mean, there are differencesbig enough to kill someone over.
It's easy, really easy tothink that.
(37:38):
Yeah.
Why is this happening?
Why you look exactly the same.
Can you even tell who's who?
Well, that's.
It's funny you say thatbecause, you know, obviously there
was the.
In Bosnia, there's a religiouselement as well.
Right.
With the Serbs are mostlyChristian versus you have Muslim
populations.
(37:58):
And he'd have soldiers that would.
Like.
My dad can remember hissoldiers on patrol being like, sir,
they all look White to me.
Like they couldn't figure likethat level of difference was really
confusing to American soldierswho are.
Who.
Because we under.
We have a different portrayaland understanding of race a lot of
(38:19):
times in our country.
I think that gets us to theend of what I would want to say about.
Say nothing.
Everything that I loved and Iwouldn't even say disliked.
Everything I loved and thoughtcould be better I've already said
and either continues orimproves in the.
In the last episode.
(38:39):
One of the things I actuallyliked from.
For myself with this show isbecause I like.
I knew some of this, but therewas a lot I didn't know.
I think it's cool to have ashow or a book that's like a jumping
off place where it's like if you're.
If you're actually interestedin learning more about this, you
can.
And I thought that's.
I thought that was cool.
I love these kinds of shows.
Yes.
Yeah.
I love that about these kindsof shows.
And when they're done evenhalfway good.
(39:02):
It's.
It's interesting and I'musually on board.
I'll.
I'll make a bold pronouncement.
This is going to make my best of.
For 2024.
Okay.
Thousand percent for me too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was wondering and that'ssomething we're going to bring up
in probably a week or two.
I'll get mine published on the site.
Top.
(39:23):
I usually do a top 10.
And the worst five, I tend todo those.
I do kind of love the worst five.
I love doing the worst five.
Say you.
You.
You watched Fear of theWalking Dead so that I didn't have
to.
My worst five.
I've got some beef with someof these shows that made me sit through
this or that.
All right.
We're here at the end.
(39:44):
You know, I know for a factfrom being online that people hate
banter.
They say put it at the end.
Guys, do y'all want to talkabout Alabama not making the playoffs?
We didn't deserve to make the playoffs.
I was ready to give you guysmarching orders on.
On things to.
To consume now post say nothing.
Well, Belfast, you've given mea stat that sounds like a great.
(40:06):
You guys got to watch Belfast.
You got to watch the wind thatshakes the barley.
Kelly Murphy's in that one.
Great.
I've seen that one.
That's good.
Yeah, that one's good.
You got to watch kneecap.
Yeah, yeah, that.
Okay.
I thought of that recentlybecause Talk.
About year end list.
That'll.
That'll be on it for film for me.
Yeah, for sure.
(40:26):
Yeah.
I wish I watched enough filmto make that kind of list, but I
don't.
And you got to watch DerryGirls if anybody out there.
Oh yeah, I've watched firstwatch that.
You got to.
It's funny that this is the first.
This topic has been likecircled around a lot.
Like you don't get a lot offirsthand accounts of the troubles
in mass media and so now wehave all of these things and now
(40:47):
say nothing.
Finally took it head on.
So if this is your entrypoint, like Donovan said, step back
and enjoy kneecap.
Step back and enjoy Dairy Girls.
You gotta watch normal people.
Oh wait, that has nothing todo with the trouble.
Sorry.
Yeah.
You guys compile some somelist for us.
We'll give that some air timesoon we'll end here.
(41:08):
It doesn't have to be allFollow us on social media.
Reach out.
Say hello.
Of course the podcast is inyour favorite podcast app every Tuesday,
except for an occasional breakwhich will I probably have one coming
up for the end of the year.
We'll talk to everybody else soon.
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