'The Last of Us' Theme Shift Is Closer Than Thought; Plus, Summer TV and 'The Studio'

Blaine begins the episode with a quick welcome before offering an overview of the episode's discussions (0:01).

Once Adam and Donovan join the podcast, the three say hello to some specific listeners (1:16). They then have a brief tangent on celebrity deaths prompted by the recent passing of George Wendt (5:13). From there, they run down a list of possible streaming television shows that could be worth your time (8:36).

Continuing the non-spoiler section, they broadly discuss 'The Studio' and its completion on Apple TV+ (24:21) as well as the season thus far of HBO's 'The Last of Us' (27:51).

In the spoiler section, the hosts break down why 'The Studio' works so well as a deeper comedy (30:39) and how the thematic shift in 'The Last of Us' may be more natural than they realized (51:51).

For more, visit the website link to The Alabama Take.

To donate to the site or the podcast, visit the link here to Buy Me a Coffee.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hey, welcome to Taking it down.
The TV and streaming podcastfrom a southern but thinking point
of view, which bringsconversation about television and
movies with respect forworking folks who know they aren't
represented in some other podcast.
We are members of thewonderful Southern Bay site and podcast
[e-mail] you can
visit that site, even sign upfor it when you visit so that you

(00:24):
can comment along with us and others.
And you can always use thesite without a sign in, of course.
In this episode of ourpodcast, I'll have co host and friends
Adam and Donovan broadly talkabout the studio and the last of
us before we take a break.
And then we'll return afterthe break to give deeper thoughts

(00:45):
specifics on those televisionshows, which will include spoilers
after the break.
We'll also talk about summertelevision in general, some things
that we haven't seen, andwe'll debate if they're worth watching.
That's how we'll begin.
So let's do that.
Let's begin.
Adam and Donovan will join us.
Alabama Tape Projection.

(01:14):
Hey, here are two of my bestfriends, and I'm lucky because they're
also two of the best co hostsfor this TV and streaming podcast.
For any TV and streamingpodcast, let me say it that way.
And it's Adam.
It's Donovan.
Hi, guys.
Hi, Blaine.
We're back.
I want to say hello to some listeners.
I want to say hello to thepeople I did not even know listen

(01:34):
today.
It always makes me nervouswhen I discover we have listeners.
I know, I know, but these arepeople we kind of sort of know in
person.
It's Ryan and Derek, Derek'swife Patricia.
Tim Hamilton we've known haslistened for a while and 87 Jetta,
who's been listener number onesince day number one.

(01:55):
The OG, the OG man, he's sogood to us because I feel like we
kind of know they're probably listening.
I just wanted to say, hey, ifyou're a listener, let us know if
we missed you.
If you listen with regularity,that's cool.
You can listen to withregularity because we don't spoil
a thing until the mile markerthat you probably can see in Spotify

(02:16):
or Apple Podcast or YouTube,you can, wherever you listen, there
are timestamps and if youlisten in Apple Podcasts, I know,
and probably other podcastapps, there are even chapters and
you can use the chapters to belike, no, this is a spoiler because
I will label them accordinglyfor you.
If you do listen every week, Iapologize for what I Say every week.

(02:39):
You don't have to, dude.
It's insightful.
I'm with Donovan.
It is horrifying to realizethat people I know listen to this.
Occasionally someone will say,oh, I listen to the podcast.
I've never heard you talk that much.
Really?
Yeah.
I'd like to know who they are.
That's funny.
I feel like there's some musictypes in Florence that you would
know who have expressed that.

(03:02):
The doc.
Doc's one of them.
Hey, Doc.
Yeah, but it's every time thathappens, I think, well, do you want
me to start talking for anhour about the last television show
that I watched?
Probably not.
This is not how we behave in a society.
The most intimidating I'vebeen intimidated, I've been with
were the two or three weeksafter Mr.
Paul Thureen had messaged us acouple of times.

(03:23):
And he's the creator andwriter for somebody somewhere.
And he was basically implyingthat Bridget Everett had listened
and Mr.
Hiller had listened.
I think we all set up straight.
And we were just like, yes,thank you.
That's the visual.
We were all like, excuse me.
Yes.

(03:44):
But no, honestly, we're justworking class Southern folk and that's
our primary point of view and that's.
And we think there's valuethere and that's what we bring to
the table.
That's why we exist.
That's why this podcast is ongoing.
And we'll get into some thingsbefore we even talk broadly about
the studio and the last of us.
That's our two primary topics.

(04:06):
Today, I want to do a summerTV rundown.
Some quick, immediate thoughtsfrom the both of you on shows that
are pretty recent or brand newor just about to begin.
Maybe next week.
It could give listeners asense of what we may do in the coming
weeks, or maybe justsuggestions on what they want to
watch, if they have any timeoff, extra time during the summer

(04:28):
where they want to put their eyes.
First up, you guys game for this?
I'm game.
And I've.
I've been.
I mean, yes, Donovan, dammit,I've been thinking about this.
Well, he said he's absolutelynot game for this, but I am.
Because I have been thinkingabout how summer can sometimes turn
into the.
The TV doldrums.
Right.
Because everybody goes to the movies.

(04:50):
Yeah.
Is that the logic?
I think.
Or they read books.
It's summer books.
It's summer movies.
But you don't hear summer tv.
You never do.
Plus, back in the day, thatwas the.
During broadcast television.
This is the time for reruns.
Yeah.
You watch your reruns.
If I missed episode five ofCheers that year, I wait for it to
come back on.

(05:10):
There you go.
Speaking of Cheers, George went.
Rip, man.
He was a great.
That really kind of hit me.
And celebrity deaths don't.
But I thought, oh, man, Georgewent with us anymore.
It's funny.
The ones that'll get you like that.
Yeah.
You know, like.
Like you don't know any ofthese people and, like, you're sad

(05:31):
that a human being died, but,like, there's the one that'll be
like, oh, I wasn't ready for this.
Is there a celebrity deaththat really, really got you?
This isn't a celebrity, butthe author, Ursula Le Guin, when
she died, I was just like, oh,I didn't expect I would feel that
way.
Why is that?
She just.
Her books have meant more tome than I guess I realized.

(05:52):
You know, I was just.
Because I started thinkingabout her and books of hers that
I've read and her work, and Iwas like, oh, I'm actually really
sad.
I mean, I'm sure there aresome that made me quite emotional.
But even this week, also a guylike Jim Ursay dying who, like, I
had.
No, not a Colts fan, but hewas in TV shows and kind of a man
around town.

(06:12):
You're like, oh, man.
That's not that I had, again,any connection.
But that makes me sad for thisguy who seemed to very much enjoy
life.
Yeah.
I didn't expect that reactionof myself.
Enjoyed being the cult'sowner, that's for sure.
It's always fun to see peoplein positions that we would think
of as fun.
Actually enjoying it.
Yes.

(06:33):
You know.
Yes.
That's cool to justtransparently show enthusiasm.
Yeah.
I remember my first one, andit struck me, and still strikes me,
is MCA of the Beastie Boys.
I thought he did not.
He didn't deserve an earlydeath at all.
Such a warm heart.
And then the.
The second one, which stillaffects me to this day, is Tom Petty.

(06:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was truly, like, dark day.
Shocking.
That was.
That was tra.
That was tragic.
It's so sad.
Not to the level of Tom Pettyfor me, but, like, David Bowie.
And I think part of that was,like, Petty.
It was a surprise.
Like, he just released afantastic album, like, three days
before.
Well, you're a huge Bowie fan.

(07:18):
If I love Bowie.
And that last album is one ofthe best he did.
So to, like, have thatexcitement, to hear it, to, like,
be watching it.
And then all of a sudden,like, I woke up on the Sunday after
that album was released andsaw something referring to him in
the past tense and I'm like,what the hell?
Any tears for any of these people?
Legit tears?
I don't think tears.

(07:39):
No, no, no.
Not for me either.
It was just some downers.
Just like you felt down.
Yeah.
I mean, I still think aboutbeing a musician in the South.
Alex Chilton and Big starinevitably haunt, like everything
that we do.
And Alex Chilton, the natureof his death and just thinking like,
man, that guy.
1.
I wish that didn't seem likehe really wanted more career wise

(08:02):
recognition, whatever.
But what year was he?
I mean, it's been.
I think that was 2012ish.
Okay.
That's a complete guess.
That's the, the era of when it happened.
But I still think about likesuch a emblematic way for you just
wonder like, oh, if he had hadhealth insurance for most of his
adult life.
If he had had, you know, whatever.

(08:24):
It's sad.
Yeah.
It's just sad.
Well, that was our tangent.
Sorry, y' all.
Yeah, it kind of got dark there.
It's okay.
But we're going to talk onrecent shows, shows that are brand
new or about to air, we'rejust going to run them down.
You guys can give quips orthoughts, and it might line up with

(08:46):
what we're going to do nextweek in the coming weeks.
First up is Duster.
This one's on hbo.
No, I think it's only a Maxproduction and it's a J.J.
abrams production.
He has a hand as a creator.
Stars Josh Holloway and Sydney Elizabeth.
About a 1970s Southwest crimesyndicate where this agent ropes

(09:10):
in one of the crimesyndicate's own to take them down.
Could be fun, but I'm prettyallergic to JJ Abrams at this point
in my life.
Wow.
Yeah, me too.
The trail.
I've seen the trailer becauseit ran before some stuff and I'm
like, okay, this looks good.
But then J.J.
abrams is like, oh, that's thekiss of death.
Like, is it gonna.
It's almost.
I'm so.

(09:30):
Mr.
Abrams, if you're listening,I'm so sorry for what I'm about to
Say to you, J.J.
abrams, working on your movieor film at this point, I think we've
seen enough of his stuff thatit's like, oh, this is evidence that
this movie, film, show willnot transcend at all.
This premise does offerexcitement, minus any sort of puzzle

(09:55):
or big reveal that he's knownto take a shit on.
It's not even that, like hisStar wars movies weren't built around
really surprises.
They sucked.
His Star Trek movies sucked.
They just weren't good.
He did other movies that Ican't remember.
I just remember the, the fakeout with Chewbacca dying in that
final new chili.

(10:15):
Yeah, you're right.
And it's like that's supposedto try to surprise and it's just
like that's stupid.
No, it was stupid.
I didn't care for it.
I just.
I'm thinking about J.J.
abrams now.
Like how he's almost like acorporate thing, you know, like,
oh, we'll just put him.
We'll attach him to this project.
Like how do people thateverybody seems to kind of just go
eh, about their work likecontinue to get work.

(10:36):
Yeah.
Well, have you ever seen him talk?
He seems like a super nice guy.
Yes, he does.
That's why I feel bad for whatI said about him because he seems
like if I think if we hungout, I would genuinely enjoy hanging
out with him.
I don't feel good aboutquestioning him.
I'm just, I'm wondering how the.
What we're going to talk aboutthe studio later.
It's like thinking in thoseterms, like how does this get made?

(10:57):
You know?
Yeah.
I tell you what, I will make apromise to listeners and to you too,
guys.
I will watch an episode thisweek of Duster and tell you more
on it and I may watch more ifI like it.
So we'll.
Can we get him on short takes?
Jj yeah.
What's he up to?
I talked to his age.
Work through, work throughsome of this stuff.

(11:17):
I would try this program.
That's my, my rating there.
Yeah, it's got a certainaesthetic I think that I might like.
Next up is Murderbot on Apple tv.
It's production based off aseries of novellas about a security
robot played by AlexanderSkarsgard, who's.
I like him a lot.
And this Murderbot, this robotdevelops emotions and it's getting

(11:40):
great reviews.
So Murderbot.
And it's like a 30 minuteseries which is not what I thought
it would be.
I'm gonna go based on premiseand name that.
If I had to give my interestrating out of a 10 0.
Yeah, bad name.
Bad name.
But it is getting good reviews.
So.
Yeah, I don't like Skarsgard.
So I do like Skarsgard.

(12:00):
It's supposed to be kind of funny.
I don't like that.
Yeah, the reviews have beenreally good.
I was.
This is me.
I'm really going to get somehate mail this week.
I.
I was kind of having like, some.
Having some knowledge of thenovellas that this grew out of.
I felt extremely allergic tothis project.
Did you read any of them?

(12:21):
Excerpt.
Didn't like it.
Thought.
I thought it was kind of likereading the Martian or something
where it's like, yeah, I getthat he's the sarcastic guy, you
know, Like, I just.
It's just not.
It's just not funny.
And it felt like he was tryingway too hard.
I sincerely apologize to theauthor of those novellas because
I've never published anythingor done anything, had any of my things

(12:43):
made into a show.
So Blaine mentioned thatpeople listen to the podcast at the
top of this episode, andDonovan cannot get out of his head
that he is personallyoffending everyone.
I'm just worried, man.
Everyone from AlexanderSkarsgard to JJ Abrams listens to
this podcast.
I feel like there's a certainstupid predictability in me being
like, oh, I don't like thisbecause it is written by a woman.

(13:04):
Oh, it is, yes.
Written the novellas and she'sbeen very successful.
And it's just not my cup of tea.
But I might look at it.
Gotcha then.
On Netflix, new series, brandnew, came out this weekend.
It's called Sirens starsJulianne Moore and Millie Acock,
where Julianne Moore plays aboss who may or may not be some sort

(13:25):
of cult leader to her employees.
Yeah, I watched Severance.
I'm intrigued by that.
I kind of am.
It also got a fair review thatI saw as a headline, and I thought
maybe might.
Might give it a shot.
Depends on how time goes,because Netflix usually drops to
the lowest of my list on whenit comes to time.

(13:49):
Jumping back to Apple tv.
Plus, this one's been on forseveral weeks now, and it might even
be wrapping up.
It's called Government Cheese.
It's about a newly released exconvict played by David Oyelowo,
who's trying to reunite withhis family and ignore his past life
of crime.
It's a period piece, I think,out of the 60s or 70s.

(14:10):
Look, I mean, everything aboutthat sounds really good.
I just haven't seen anyheadlines about it at all.
But I.
I really want to watch Ashame, too.
Yeah.
I also have seen Nothing,which is a shame because it has a
great leading man there.
David Oyelowo is very watchable.
I've never seen him inanything that he wasn't excellent
in.
He was in Silo.

(14:32):
Remember the early episodes of Silo?
Oh, I didn't watch that.
Adam, do you remember himbeing in Silo?
He was like The Sheriff.
Oh, yeah.
There is always these showsthat it is like hits the if I get
around to it category andfairly or unfairly things go into
that category.
And this I think is solidly ifI get around to it.

(14:52):
Yeah.
It honestly, I'm kind of asucker for that.
That period piece thing.
I'm a sucker for Criminaltrying to do right.
Yeah.
Man.
You must have loved seasonfour of the Wire.
I loved all of the Wire.
Let's go to fx.
They haven't had anything outwe've talked about lately.

(15:14):
This one is coming in a weekor two.
It's called Adults.
It's a comedy series with acast of mostly unknowns, about 20
somethings trying to becomeadults, trying to live in an adult
world.
Heavily leaning into the Girls.
I was gonna say, I've seenGirls aesthetic.
Yes.
From hbo.
Yeah.

(15:34):
It comes out, I think thisweek, garnering praise from various
sources.
I mean, this is in the sameway that you enjoy Criminal trying
to make good programs.
I enjoy this genre quite a bit.
It's always.
It's always fun to me.
Young adult trying to be real world.
Yeah.

(15:55):
And I would be interestedspecifically because like me and
Donovan and our wives wouldwatch Girls.
We had a long spell where that was.
Because it was always on after the.
The hour long Prestige.
Whether it was Game of Thrones or.
Yeah.
Or True Detective when thatwas running.
Which is hilarious to thinkabout those running back to back

(16:18):
Russ Cole and then whateverLena Dunham got into that week.
But it would be interestingnow, some years removed from feeling
like we were seeing ourgeneration get screen time now versus.
Versus now.
Looking at the generation thatfollows what their version of that
story is as a newly agingperson would be interesting.

(16:39):
If it's done well.
There's something kind ofgreat about the like, I'm trying
to be an adult.
I'm trying to figure out whatit is and the same.
What life is.
In the same way that theBuildings from On is an evergreen
genre.
Just in the sense that likeyou're kind like as you're trying
to figure out your place inlife, you're asking big questions
and there's a lot ofopportunities, opportunity for depth

(16:59):
and insight and comedy.
And my favorite thing fromGirls is from the first season.
God, I've been thinking aboutit all this week.
I can't get it out of my head.
You're gonna have to censorthis part out.
There's a bit where ZosiaMomay's character or Mamet.
I don't know how you say herlast name is like, she's never had
sex, but she's having a sexualencounter and the guy's giving her
oral sex and it just goes toher face and she goes, okay, okay.

(17:25):
Like she says, like, she'sjust confused by it.
It is so funny and she doessuch a good job.
I just want to jump back forlisteners, Donovan used the word
buildings.
Roman, as we probablypronounced it wrongly, just in case
anybody missed that word.
Also coming out, I think thisweek, next week, now this one I think

(17:45):
I'm.
I'm all in on.
It's stick on Apple tv.
It's a bit of a trope sort of show.
But here's what destroys the trope.
Owen Wilson.
He's playing a washed upgolfer who takes up a new guy under
his wing.
And I love Owen Wilson.
This give me.

(18:06):
Oh, man.
Yeah, I'm all in.
Just air it now.
He opens doors into storiesthat I would otherwise not.
I mean, like, Owen Wilsonbeing like a wealthy person on screen.
I'm always like, yeah, I'mhere for this.
I don't give a shit about golfand country club life.
But tell me all about OwenWilson doing it.
You've seen the videos of himskateboarding, right, with those

(18:28):
guys, like, currently, they'renot that old.
No.
Yeah, he's like an old.
Yeah, he's kind of older thanthe kids who are skateboarding.
And he just like, he's so nonchalant.
Like, he is.
And then he just gets on theskateboard and like, does all kinds
of tricks.
You haven't seen this?
No, I'm gonna look it up.
I gotta look this up.
I've not seen this worth a Google.

(18:48):
This is a sneaky.
Why am I discovering that I'ma bigger Owen Wilson fan than I thought
I was?
Oh, man.
Admit it.
I love the guy.
I mean, I just hadn'tconsidered it because he's always
been there, you know?
Well, both of y' all are huge.
Royal Tenenbaums.
Oh, man, he's the best.
So good.
Yeah, I feel like he getsunderappreciated in the Darjeeling
Limited too, as the.
Kind of like, this is exactlywhat I was.

(19:10):
He's the.
The.
He doesn't play the straight man.
No, he's the neurotic, fussyolder brother.
And like, he's.
It's not like a really, like,hammy performance.
It's almost kind of under low,lower key for what it is.
But he does such a good job.
And it's just Adrien Brody inSchwartzman get so many iconic moments

(19:31):
and he's kind of there toantagonize them.
Absolutely.
Or.
But like he's so good at deliver.
Like the bit where he's likemad at.
Because Adrien Brody'scharacter has like the dad's belt.
He's like.
There's something about theway he delivers the line.
I just don't want you thinkingyou are better friends with dad than
the rest of us.
It's like there's somethingpetulant and it's just so good.

(19:51):
He's so good at that.
Can I admit here that I havewatched Midnight in Paris probably
a dozen times.
Oh, same here.
Yeah.
Because of Owen Wilton probably.
That was before I had readWoody Allen's Wikipedia page.
I mean, I'm not proud of thefact that I've done that.
Owen Wilton was also just sogood in Loki.

(20:13):
Yeah, he was a lot of fun.
He was so fun there.
I'm not gonna say he carriedit because Hiddleston was great too.
But yeah, Proof of Apple TVand their list of great efforts is
your Friends and Neighbors,which I can't wait to get back into.
It's probably on its back half.
Might even be ending.
I've enjoyed every episodeI've seen since I took a pause of

(20:34):
late.
But it's airing and I plan on finishing.
It's super good.
The Jon Hamm vehicle for yourFriends and neighbors.
Super good.
You know that you can justwatch Mad Men again.
It's kind of cool to see himin this though.
I know it is.
But the and I this longtimelisteners will know that if you're

(20:54):
tracking what YouTube TV isdoing right now.
The stories by AMC channel isback on Mad Men and has been for
three weeks.
And I.
I have just got nothing donein my life.
On Max and HBO is the threepart docu series Pee Wee as himself,
which is a lot of archivalfootage of Paul Rubens, his castmates,
interviews with them, a lookback at the character of Pee Wee

(21:16):
Herman and sort of Paul Rubensgetting to that character.
I'm a little older than you guys.
Pee Wee Herman had a.
I wouldn't say an impact, buthe had a place in my childhood.
I'm kind of fascinated to seewhat they can tell me about both
Rubens and the character thatI don't know.
Early reviews have been, Ithink positive.

(21:37):
If I've seen this is somethingI've not been like, oh, I gotta see
it.
Just because I'm probably fiveto ten years too young for Pee Wee
Kerman being part of my childhood.
When they do the three partdocu series on Big Bird, I'm gonna
be watching that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Hasn't that been done.
Behind the scenes with Wishbone?

(21:58):
That'll be where I'm there.
Of course, 100 foot wave isairing, which is good stuff.
We've covered it here, so Iwon't spend a lot of time on it.
And there's even.
Andor which we haven'tdiscussed at all.
It too is either at the end orhas ended.
Donovan, you've seen it.
Disney's been kind of doing ita disservice by releasing it in three

(22:19):
episode drops.
Yeah.
On the other hand, it's been fantastic.
Yeah.
Now that seems to be one ofthe most well reviewed things that's
come out this year that we're.
I haven't seen any of it, so.
Me either.
As guilty as anybody else.
Haven't finished it.
Thought what I've seen isincredible and really works.
It's so good that it makesStar wars like simultaneously like

(22:41):
better and worse.
Mm.
It takes it the materialseriously, but not in like the pseudo
adult way where it's likeserious means swears and guns and
it's like.
No, it takes it seriously, butat the same time, the stuff, the
worst of Star wars shows upvery poorly next to this.
Is it like your pronunciationof buildings?

(23:02):
Roman?
I guess.
Bear with me on this onebecause I want to jump beyond summer
and I saw this last night andI was praying it was coming out next
week.
It's the HBO series Task.
Have you seen the trailer for this?
Mm.
Mm.
It must be brand new.
It's well in the distance.

(23:22):
It doesn't come out untilSeptember, but holy shit, it.
This will be my favorite show.
It's got Mark Ruffalo playinga detective.
It's got a sympathetic badguys and it's from the creator of
Mayor of Easttown.
And it looks like.
Yeah, okay.
I did see a trailer for thatuntil you said Mayor of East Town.

(23:42):
It was hidden in my brain and.
It looks like the perfect HBO show.
I'm in.
I mean, saying you've got yourSunday nights locked up.
Yes, of course they're goingto air on Sunday so that we have
to cover a week behind.
But hey, that's what.
Anyway, that was way too.
That's September.
That's a.
Well in Alabama.
It's not quite after summer,but that'll.

(24:05):
Be in the oh, please, God, letit end part of summer.
Yeah, that'll be.
Did Alabama win or not?
Okay, let's watch Task now.
Right, we're.
In the section of the podcastwhere we don't discuss specifics,
so there's no need to run orhide if you're in the still watching
the the Last of Us or the studio.

(24:25):
But we'll start with thestudio comedy from Apple tv Plus,
created by Seth Rogan, EvanGoldberg, Freda Perez, Peter Huick,
and Alex Gregory.
Long list.
It's about Seth Rogen'scharacter, Matt Remick, who's been
promoted as head of a majorstudio, and he has to figure out
what to do with his powers.
A lot of guest stars,callbacks, Inside Hollywood jokes

(24:49):
in the best way, and a lot of laughs.
I think we've praised it inrecent episodes.
So you guys are still on boardwith it, right?
Yes.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I, Yeah, I have to admit,I said on the show that it is so
intense that it stresses meout a bit at times.
I had to kind of calibrate towatching it.
So I feel like I was very onboard at first, and then, like canon,

(25:12):
I endured this program andthen landed back at, yeah, I'm gonna.
I'm here for the duration.
It's.
I feel like once I started toget a handle on the characters better,
it actually became lessstressful for me.
I don't know why that is.
Yeah, I think some of that is just.
I don't know, just gettingmore used to it.
But, like, by the time it hit the.
Like the episode where they'reworried that they're making things

(25:33):
racist and it just makeseverything more racist.
Like that.
Like, the cascading tragedy ofthem trying to fix it was like, oh,
yeah, I'm on board for this.
I think you have to.
And I don't think this is spoiler.
Since we're this far into theseason, you have to let go of your
hopes that he's going tosmoothly accomplish anything.
Yes.
You know, you're rooting forthe Matt character, for the Seth

(25:54):
Rogen character to pull offthe objective of making great art
and also financiallysucceeding early on.
You're like, oh, this will bejust hijinks along the way.
No, no, no, that's not whatthe show is.
It's stellar, it's sharp.
It's worth the time it takesto watch.
I think the characters arelovable despite their huge Grand

(26:16):
Canyon defects.
I actually agree with that, everyone.
Like, once when you get to theend of it, I feel like even, like
in part of this is, I justthink Seth.
Some people can't stand him,but I just think Seth Rogen projects
likable when he's on tv, butyou're kind of like, oh, these guys,
like, they're just like,there's something so.
Because they're so flawed andfallible, but they're also like,

(26:36):
oh, well, they're.
They're people, you know,like, they've got hopes and dreams,
too.
You kind of want them to succeed.
People who don't like thisshow yet have watched it might have
a problem looking at themselves.
I think that a lot of thesecharacters serve to remind me of
my own character defects.
I know we talked about theCurb comparison, but there's a level

(26:59):
of that that I understand whysomebody would walk away from.
Is renewed for second season.
If you're a listener like mewho gets on the fence about a show,
that may help sometimes I'mlike, well, is it going to be around
for a while?
So this would have been a goodone and done.
But I'm glad that it's comingback, and I do.
Me, too.

(27:19):
I think this is, like, peoplewill just, like Adam said, like,
hate it for the same reasonI'm about to propose.
You love it.
But if you love comedies ofthe ego, which I think there's a
lot of ripe potential, youknow, there.
To quote Tobias Hunke, this isripe for parody.
In addition to all the othergood stuff it's doing, it's got a
really good eye on just, like,people's feelings and projections

(27:45):
of self and how that isbattered in many different ways.
Speaking of shows coming to aclose, at least seasonally, it's
the Last of Us.
I like that we paired thesetwo together because I think the
studio asks, do you like to laugh?
And that's cool.
And then the Last of Us islike, do you like to cry?

(28:07):
Yeah, yeah.
But both big emotions.
I'd be curious to note iflisteners hear the Deadwood score.
When I watched the Last of Us,Deadwood, Die Hards might notice
similarities in the score.
Well, they're kind of.
They're kind of both Westernsat this point.
That.
Well, that's a.

(28:27):
You know.
Yeah.
Much more than.
Much more than the firstseason was.
I haven't made that comparisonin myself, but I've seen that.
What are your feelings onseason two of the Last of Us?
Wasn't sure.
A couple episodes, like,there's things I like, there's things
I dislike.
Okay, this is plausible.
This is less plausible.

(28:49):
And then the last episode kindof wrapped it all up for me.
I was like, oh, now they'redropping pieces into place.
Now that makes sense.
Yeah.
I was worried about the showand the direction it was taken, but
I.
I was worried, too, but now I'm.
I think I'm not worried anymore.
Right.
My anxieties were greatlyeased by some forward movement, but

(29:12):
it moved at such a quick pacefor an episode or two that I forgot
my worries.
Yeah.
And I forgot what sort ofthematic show it was turning into.
And then, like you said, themost recent episode helped a lot.
It is kind of, I think, alwaysa risk that I commend creators for
taking.
When you do have that, you'rekind of playing a long game where

(29:34):
it's like, the things.
This is going to make you feel unsettled.
And then when we get to this,everything's going to kind of drop
into place.
But you have to have, like, akind of trust of your audience that
they're going to make itthrough, you know, with you, to the
point where it all starts tomake sense.
Yeah, yeah.
And they could do that here.
The audience is probably alittle built in.
Yeah.
I mean, it's the secondseason, not the first, for sure.

(29:56):
Yeah.
And the video game thing aspect.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
We're gonna take a break after.
We'll dissect some of these inthe order that we've mentioned them.

(30:37):
Okay.
We're gonna maintain the sameorder the shows we discussed earlier,
but here we're gonna discuss specifics.
We may ruin jokes, may tellplot points, Start with the studio
from Apple tv.
If I can oversimplify a stance.
It's just fun to watch, I think.
Why is Bryan Cranston so goodat everything he's in?

(31:03):
Yeah, he is.
Have you ever seen that videoof him being interviewed by Rainn
Wilson?
And Rainn Wilson's like, howdoes it feel?
You know, we're guys who maybeget identified with one character.
I'm like, that's not what'shappening here.
I think that people are goingto get justifiably angry with Matt

(31:24):
Remick and his inability toknow when to shut the fuck up.
But as I mentioned last timewe podcasted about this, oh, so many
weeks ago, I just relate to him.
He's a larger version of themishaps I create in my own life.
I feel like if you're able toaccept that as, like, oh, okay, I
understand that this is gonnabe part of the vehicle that drives

(31:45):
the comedy too.
It is kind of funny to, like,when you know that it basically is
set up to be like, okay, thisis gonna go wrong for them in the
worst possible way at theworst possible time.
That's actually pretty funny.
And then I did enjoy, becausethat is the vehicle for so much of
a humor, how towards the endof this series, they ended up subverting

(32:05):
that and they have thing.
Everything goes perfectly atexactly the right time.
Let's focus on a few episodesthat lead up to the final two.
They recreated the Golden Globes.
Have you read anything abouthow they did this?
It's like an amazing feat, right?
I mean, I haven't read.
I'm just.
I'm curious if you.

(32:26):
If you did the homework of,like, how did they.
The whole time I was watchingit, I thought, how did they do this?
They just got everybody in oneplace and did it in the spot where
the Golden Globes is set usually.
Right.
Do you think that they didthis in the way that when you're
in your 20s and you need helpmoving, you're like, hey, I'm going
to have pizza and beer ifeverybody can just come over for

(32:47):
this one night.
Gene Smart's like, this is thelast time I help you out, Seth.
Right.
So many guest stars in this one.
Very good.
Notably Zoe Kravitz.
I have really.
They.
They really have been smartabout their guest stars, too.
Yeah.
Where it's like, they're funcameos, but they don't overwhelm
it at all.

(33:08):
And nobody minds playing aversion of themselves that is close
enough to reality that whenthey have the asshole turn, you know,
like, it's.
It's really kind.
You would think that you haveto have a good sense of humor about
yourself because, yeah, youknow, they all have some ugly moment,
generally.
Except for Martin Scorsese,who's just.

(33:30):
Again, that was so funny.
Poor, sweet Martin Scorsese.
I really did enjoy this GoldenGlobes episode for the, like, the
pathos.
And it's almost kind of atragedy of Matt.
Just like, he's got.
He's the head of a studio, right.
He can collect vintage sportscars, right?
Like, he can.
He's got all this money andpower, and he just wants to be thanked.

(33:54):
And there's almost.
There's this, like, almost sadthing because, like, he.
He wants to imagine himselfthroughout the show as this artist,
as someone who's facilitatingart, and often he's just facilitating
crap.
He's not an artist.
He's, you know, he is a pennypincher, as they call it.
He's a bean counter.
A bean counter.
That's what it was.
Bean counter.
But he wants it so bad.
And I get.

(34:14):
I felt that for him.
Yeah.
That combined with like can'tshake phone calls from his mom saying,
you're gonna think, do you getto go on stage in.
In his own like muddle headedway where it's like, it's not really
malicious.
He just wants a thank you.
That's all he wants.
He needs that thank you tomake up for the lack of a wife and

(34:35):
child and all of the.
Exactly.
Convenient, conventional things.
As much as any comedy we'veseen lately, this is as thematic
and rich as any comedy thatI've maybe seen in a long time.
Because we do have this ideathat he's compensating, he's normal.

(34:58):
People have that feeling ofno, I don't really want to be thanked.
But then when it's over you'relike, well, why the fuck wasn't I
thanked?
Right.
It's very much like LarryDavid flailing throughout the episode,
but driven from such adifferent place of not only desperation
to be recognized but also just included.

(35:21):
Mm, yeah.
A deep desire to be part ofthe club.
Yeah.
Larry David usually comes fromI'm right and you're an idiot point
of view.
And you get on board with thatpretty easily.
I'm just saying he wouldcreate a similar wake of problems
in that room.
But it's from the differentpoint of view, from the different

(35:43):
angle.
Whereas Matt Remick is just,just love me.
I love movies and I want to,you know, also be loved.
And there's the big.
We can go back, we can jumpsome episodes here.
There's the big moment wherehe's at.
The cancer benefit, pediatric oncologist.

(36:04):
Thank you.
With his then girlfriend andhe, you know, they get in this huge
argument that the doctors aretelling him what you do is absolutely
unimportant to anyone.
That's almost their stance.
This was a fun flipping of the script.

(36:26):
Right from like self importantHollywood types usually being lampooned
to these doctor, I mean ofcourse they keep people alive.
So it's kind of like you can'targue, this is not subjective.
That yes, keeping people aliveis if you're in a hierarchy of need
situation, more important thanwhat he does.

(36:46):
But they're just such assholesabout it.
That made it so delightfulwhere you're like, there's such assholes
about it that you're like.
Cause you know, if you reallystart to think about it, you're like,
Matt, is your work crucial?
You're making Kool Aid, themovie is that important.
But they're just such dicksabout it.
You're like, you know what?
Art is important, even if itis Kool Aid, the movie.

(37:09):
As that episode went on, Iagreed more and more with him.
Yeah, it's.
It's so funny.
Like, it makes you, like,against the pediatric oncologist,
which is hilarious.
Brian Eno has this thing wherehe talks about, we have.
People would say art is not anessential part of life, yet for all
of human history, we have made art.

(37:30):
So obviously it is somethingthat we are incapable of not doing.
It is part of the human experience.
And so trying to, you know,this is almost like a government
funding argument.
You know, like, is the arts asimportant as, like, stem stuff or
whatever?
And it's like, well, yes, wedo need people trained to make sure

(37:51):
the bridges that we're drivingacross are all these things.
But, like, how do you quantifywhat art does?
And is it worth being aliveif, like, are we human if we don't
have these things?
And I would say no.
But obviously this is.
Was reduced down for thisepisode into, like, everyone's kind
of a jerk.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Are we human if we don't havethe Kool Aid movie?

(38:13):
Right.
Like, you're not talking about.
He's not selling van Gogh'spaintings 115 years ago so that there
can be more.
You know, this is.
It's a different.
He's not working with Brynn.
You know, he's.
He's making Kool Aid.
Yeah, but even that, you know,after you've seen that.
And what.

(38:34):
Even though they're making funof the studio, freaking out about
diversity, inclusivity, all ofthese things, like, it still meant
something, like, to have to goand work through those issues, and
it still be important enoughto do.
I don't know why I'm arguingfor Kool Aid here, but, like, obviously,

(38:56):
we.
All love Kool Aid, the movie.
Even dumb movies are capableof asking questions about our society
that are important to haveconversations about, I think is.
What I'm getting sometimes.
I think that sometimes does happen.
My favorite line of this, ofthat episode was when he yells at
his girlfriend, they cured cancer.

(39:17):
I did not know that.
Didn't realize y' all hadcured cancer.
I just loved when they'reloading him in the ambulance and
he still will not let it go.
Yeah, that.
That was my favorite part.
There's gonna be a tv.
There'll be screams.
It also just, like, itreinforced his character as, like,

(39:37):
this childlike moron, youknow, in a way.
Like, he just.
He.
He is a true believer in whathe's saying, even if you disagree
with his point, it's like hebelieves this with his whole heart.
And this gets back to what Iwas saying, that this comedy has
complexity and thematic ideasthat I haven't seen in a lot of comedies.

(40:00):
There are some.
And I think that it reachesits apex with its ideas in the episode
with the Doctors.
And then the episode which istitled Casting, which we brought
up briefly about how.
What do you.
What do you do to balance thescales of what mirrors America?

(40:21):
Making sure you have a diversefilm, making sure that it's fair,
you know, or equitable, andthen just going crazy over that idea.
And it was such a good episode.
And I kept thinking, there'sno way they're going to actually
get Ice Cube to play the partthat they're talking about, the version

(40:45):
of Ice Cube that they'retalking about.
But they do, and it's great.
It is, I think, really smartlyand subtly asking questions about.
For an episode that doesn'tseem super subtle, it's asking really
good questions about who is inthe room, who's being consulted,
who gets to decide.
And I think they reallyhighlight that with Kathryn Hahn's

(41:09):
character repeatedly throwingwhite women under the bus and was
like, you are a white woman.
She's like, my father was from Cyprus.
But just this.
I thought that was actuallyreally clever in, like, we can have,
like, this identity, thisposition, this power, and yet still
be very blind.
Right.
As we're.
As we're having theseconversations, as we're doing these

(41:30):
things, as we're figuring outwho's included and excluded from
the room.
I just thought it was.
It was very.
Yeah, it was very good.
It was good.
And it's also nice of them tobring back in the Kool Aid movie.
I know we've talked about it alot, but this was the first episode
that brought it back because Istarted casting for it.
I'm so annoyed that the MartinScorsese movie doesn't exist.

(41:54):
I still need to bring this up.
We talked about this, haven't we?
Not maybe not on Mike, but theJonestown thing.
Yeah.
It is being brought to us byBill Hader.
It's not Martin Scorsese.
It's not.
I'm sorry, Bill Hader.
Well, it's not.
But don't disregard BillHader, Barry.
I'm not one of the top showsof the last, what, 10 years or so?

(42:19):
Yeah, definitely.
Decade.
You know, I was.
It's funny that I was beggingfor more Sal.
And not just Sal, but Sal onCoke and That's really what you get
in the last half of this series.
It does deliver.
It delivers.
And then it's.

(42:40):
It's so good that it's Salthat gets the attention in the Golden
Globes instead of Matt.
It becomes a running joke.
I've got to thank this Salperson just over and.
Yeah, like, that's part ofwhat, like, I just loved.
You know, we're kind oftalking about like the, like the
very human pathos of it.
And it is, it's doing thatthing that Curb would do sometimes

(43:02):
too, where it's like the thingthat like, you fear or you can handle
the least coming out of thisis exactly what's happening around
you and you just.
And you just can't deal withit at all.
Yeah, he's like this, this isall he wants.
He wants people to think he's cool.
He wants people to know his name.
He wants to be thanked on stage.
And old Sal's ripping coke andgetting, you know, dancing on tables,

(43:26):
continuously ripping coke.
The fact that Sal has twoyoung daughters who don't give a
about him is just one of myfavorite components of this series
that.
That lasts all of threeminutes the most.
I love that he's very cleareyed about his first off the two
daughters.
Like the one doing like thebaby voice or whatever.
And he's just like, he's justlike, he can't deal with it.

(43:48):
But then after that he's justlike, my kids are really stupid.
I'm gonna need to provide for that.
Like, he's incredibly cleareyed about his children.
Sal, maybe best character ofthe year.
Low key.
Also with the, with the GoldenGlobes episode, I mean, they just
take down so much of the.
That the three of us mightalso try to take down if we were

(44:12):
smart enough.
And one of it is the tik tockgeneration there at the Golden Globes
filming the red carpet.
And, and Matt says, I canremember when the red carpet used
to stand for something.
He repeated jokes that like,his mom has told all her friends
at whatever retirementcommunity that George Seinfeld.

(44:33):
I mean, all the parents inSeinfeld, everyone's parents in Seinfeld
ended up in Florida.
Like, she's told everyonethere, like, oh, my son's gonna be
on stage.
And just like her continuedinability to understand what's happening
and disappointment.
Yeah.
Running through it.
Yeah.
Costanza.
George Costanza.
Geez, why could I not think of that?
Oh, yeah, you go to George Seinfeld.

(44:55):
She's.
She's.
My brain broke.
She's clearly at the sameretirement village that the Costanzas
are at.
Oh, yeah, in Florida.
Yeah.
The Seinfelds and Costanzastill live in New York.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
They do, don't they?
Donova.
Just making a mess out of this.
Oh, my goodness.
I'll have to clean this up.
There is a wonderful.

(45:17):
It's so fun picture of AdamScott and Ike Barinholtz as young
men.
Like really young men, 20years old together.
You can.
You can find that prettyeasily online because the.
The joke is that Adam Scottslept on.
Excuse.
Yeah, no, he plays Adam Scott.
That's right.
Adam Scott slept on Sal'scouch coming into Hollywood.

(45:41):
Adam Scott was so good in thisepisode too.
So good.
I was really.
I got a little, I don't know,laugh or smile out of the fact that
they didn't use severance.
Yeah.
You know, they're on Apple TVplus, but they didn't use severance.
They kept using Netflix and Ted's.
Ted Sereno's rather than Tim Cook.

(46:02):
It was.
I thought that was pretty genius.
It was in his.
His speech.
Not speech, but monologue.
Very brief to Matt about.
Just like, just put it in thecontract and count your beans.
Yeah, yeah, he had it figured out.
Donovan, do you have any issuewith a two part finale for the studio?
No, this was perfectly fine.

(46:24):
I feel like that because thesecond part was a little shorter.
It ends up feeling a littleslight as compared to the first one.
But I was laughing the wholetime through.
Yeah, there were some goodgags in both of them.
And the way the last episodedecides that it's going to subvert,
like everything that can gowrong will go wrong.
It's like everythingmiraculously goes right.

(46:47):
Was also funny to see howthey're stumbling their way to success.
Yeah.
And Bryan Cranston is hilarious.
Yeah.
Here we get a whole lot moreBryan Cranston and he's playing a
part you never see on screen,which is the head of the head of
the movie studio.
I didn't even know such athing existed.
Oh, yeah.
So like what, what does he do?

(47:09):
Give the money or something?
Yeah, he's like.
He's like David Zaslav or something.
Like, I guess he's like incharge of all of Warner Brothers
stuff.
So he'll meddle around withHBO and all that.
Yeah.
I found myself thinking Iwould have maybe preferred two separate
narratives with a slightconnection, but it worked okay, I

(47:30):
thought.
I did love the somewhatserialization of the entire series.
The studio movies that werementioned or worked on earlier became
smaller plot points throughout.
It's just sharp writing tokeep those on the bulletin board
in the writer's room and usethem again.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Like when they're doing thefake trailers for all of the movies

(47:51):
that we've seen so far.
I used to.
That Matt has.
Matt has ruined in his own.
His own way.
I used to scream at TV shows for.
For bringing up something newand like you brought up whatever
three episodes, just use it again.
One point in the final twoepisodes that they got to chuckle
up from me is that BryanCranston's much older than Imagine

(48:13):
character Griffin Meal.
He's way older than both CRand what people think.
That was just funny to me thathe's 82.
He's like 82 or something like that.
And doing coke and doing allthe drugs.
And it was so humorous to mebecause I kept thinking, just give
him coke.
If he's that down and out,give him some blow.

(48:35):
But it didn't quite work.
It didn't work enough.
I will admit.
I don't know why I thought,like, Dave Franco, playing a really
annoying version of himselfwas like, oh, this is somewhat funny.
And then right at the end, hecomes in, he's all beat up.
He's clearly, you know, he'sbeen doing coke or whatever, and
they're just worried, what areyou gonna do?
He goes out on stage, he's so professional.

(48:55):
He nails it, and then he comesback like, you did it, you did it.
He's like, oh, my God, I needan ambulance.
Just falls over.
He had been beaten up.
He really made me laugh.
I'm digging that.
Matt had a relationship withKathryn Hahn's character and there's
no explanation, quote unquote.
They don't do that anymore.
Right.
They just happen to absorb oneanother in a moment of extreme drug

(49:18):
use.
And Zoe Kravitz really knowshow to play someone who has taken
way too many mushrooms.
A lot of mushrooms.
That was really telegraphed.
When he picks up the mushroomsand the lady tells him the amount
you're supposed to take, youknew then, oh, no, they're not gonna

(49:39):
take that amount.
I feel like thecharacterization is fairly strong
at this point because you knowthat he's like, he can't even ask
this person.
Like, he doesn't want to seemlike he doesn't know something.
Right.
He's not cool.
So he can't even ask like abasic question and ends up drugging
Zoe Kravitz.
He's such a buffoon that hecan't stand looking like a buffoon.

(50:02):
Exactly.
Like many of us, right?
Yes.
Yes, I am a buffoon, and I donot want to come off as one.
Yeah.
I think all of it, which iskind of like there's sort of that,
like, you know, the littlepathos there.
Right.
Where you're kind of like.
I kind of ident.
I've done this stupid thingbecause I haven't wanted to seem
like I didn't know what I wastalking about.

(50:24):
You know, we've all done that.
Exactly.
Lovely show.
I'm.
I'm real thrilled, especiallywith the way it ended.
I'm thrilled that it's goingto come back.
We still don't know if theygot sold to Amazon or will.
Yeah, they.
They pulled out.
They pulled it off.
But that's the cliffhanger.
Yeah, it's the cliffhanger youmentioned briefly.

(50:45):
It could have been a one anddone, but no, I think another season
to see the Amazon mess or ifthat's going to be an Amazon, if
they get Jeff Bezos as a guest star.
I feel like this show for mewas very strong in the first two
episodes from being like, oh,here's Martin Scorsese.
You like him.

(51:05):
Here's movie making.
And it really did build off ofthat to.
To at the end where I was like.
By the end of it, I was like,I genuinely enjoy these characters.
I genuinely enjoy these.
I'm kind of rooting for them alittle bit.
Like, I think it did.
I think it just built itselfreally intelligently across the.
Not that it was all perfect,but it's the series that's made me

(51:27):
laugh the hardest this year.
And I think the episodecasting is my favorite episode of
comedy.
Yeah, that's come out this year.
Yes.
Like, that was.
They were firing on all cylinders.
Yes.
It's so nice to see a sitcomkind of show have depth as well.
Yeah.
So, kudos.

(51:48):
Let's shift gears, though, okay.
As we bid adieu to the studio,we will soon be saying goodbye to
the Last of Us.
Now, regular listeners knowwe're always an episode behind for
Sunday shows, but Donovan andI are going to analyze these most
recent episodes of the Last ofUs, which we haven't had a chance

(52:08):
to do.
It's going to take us right upto the penultimate episode and we'll
discuss it.
In fact, that might be theprimary focus of our conversation.
Well, I tell you, let's.
Let's do backup one.
Okay.
Let me orient our viewers if I can.
It was called Feel Her Love.
I think it's Episode five ofthe season that's airing.

(52:30):
It's few.
If that doesn't ring a bell to anyone.
It's the one where Dina andEllie are.
Are.
It's day two in Seattle, andthey're really in the.
And I thought that this wasthe episode where I was already okay
with the.
With the huge, monumental shift.

(52:51):
But here I thought, this is atantalizing piece of television.
Mm.
You know, I want to know what happens.
I want to see where it's going.
Yeah, I agree.
And I don't.
Still.
Not completely.
I'm still not 100% sold on thethematic shift.
I mentioned this, and I'lljust reiterate.

(53:13):
Do I want it to be a questionof what does violence do to us versus
what would a father do for his daughter?
I like that second question awhole lot better, but it's still
a good TV show.
My concern is about theoriented, because I do think for
the first season, the strengthof it was, what would a father do

(53:38):
for his daughter, especiallyas he's coming.
They're both kind of growinginto these roles with each other.
Exactly.
And so I think I agree withyou, Blaine.
But then I think that the mostrecent episode kind of actually hooked
it all around and connectedthose things back together.

(53:58):
Did it connect it too late for you?
No, it worked for what hit.
Because you started.
It was.
Because it was.
By going back and showing youwhat you didn't see.
It was like, yeah, now I seethe context for.
For a lot of stuff.
And now I'm starting to understand.
And it's.
It is asking.
I think it's asking more thanjust like, you know, hey, does hurting

(54:19):
people make you a bad person?
Usually, you know, it seems to.
It seems to be bad for you.
But I think there's even just.
They've kind of suggested itthat parenthood is something that's
on Ellie's mind now, you know,and so hooking it back in with.
Yes.
Okay.
She's trying to get revengefor Joel, but now she knows there's
a baby on the way with, youknow, her friend girlfriend, Dina.

(54:41):
And then we get the concept of.
Is what really ground the showfor me.
The idea that you're justtrying to do a little bit better
than the way you were taught.
Yeah.
Hang on to that idea.
We'll definitely, you know,and that.
Is that real?
This all that snapped ittogether for me.
Definitely gonna bring thatback up.

(55:03):
Great little line could be inthe game, for all I know, with Ellie
saying, I'm gonna be a dad.
Yeah, that was.
She delivered it very well.
She does her line deliverywith anyone else but Bella Ramsey,
I would maybe not like as muchand even groan.
That's exactly it.
Like, Bella Ramsey, they dosuch a good job of, like, this kid

(55:27):
should be obnoxious.
Yeah.
But you kind of can't help butgrin at them because they're just
irrepressible.
She was a little obnoxious inepisode one, but I hung in there.
Obviously, it wasn't quitethat bad, but I thought that it was
a little overplayed.
I couldn't tell if it was thedirection or the acting.
I thought it could have beenpared down some.
But from episode two untilnow, I've loved it.

(55:51):
I would almost say I'd love it.
Yeah.
And I think that this is not aslight on Bella Ramsey, but I think
that we kind of discussed this.
Right.
Like, when you take away.
You know, they had the dynamicbetween Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey,
and when you take away PedroPascal, it's not.
You just don't know how it'sgonna go.
And I do think Bella, one ofthe things just very quickly this

(56:15):
show has done is it's reallyfocused on Bella Ramsey, on Ellie
very well, and done a good jobof bringing in other people in her
orbit so that she's still ableto have relationships with the other
folks that are on screeninstead of just like, okay, it's

(56:37):
just Ellie now, and there's noJoel, and she's completely def.
By him not being there, andthat's just not the case.
Yeah.
I mean, I.
I question not only thethematic shift, but the shift of,
do I want to watch a show thatpromised me Pedro Pascal?
But it's not Pedro Pascal now,and that's not a cut against Bella
Ramsey, obviously.
Not anymore, because I thinkshe is phenomenal.

(57:00):
Oh, that was kind of the fruit.
My point of that whole long ramblers.
It's on her shoulders.
Yeah.
She can.
And she's pulling it off.
Yeah.
She's very lovable.
She's very lovable.
Yeah.
Line delivery is.
Is on point.
Before I move into thepenultimate episode, I wanted to
ask, though, the episode ofFeel Her Love where they get rescued

(57:26):
by young Manzino's characterof Jesse.
Jesse.
Yeah.
I don't have it.
Yeah.
That was fine for me.
That was a funny moment for meas a viewer, because I kept thinking
it's about time for somebodyto have caught up to them.
Yes.
And then, sure enough, they get.
And it was right before theygo into the abandoned warehouse or

(57:49):
factory or whatever it is.
I was thinking, yeah, ifsomebody was going to catch up with
them two days.
They've been there two days.
It's about that time wherethey would start bumping into somebody
from Jackson.
And so to me, it was perfectly timed.
Everything's fine.
You know what is almost funnyto me as I'm reflecting on these

(58:09):
episodes is I think we.
And this is not bad.
I think this is a testament tothe show.
But we're sort of talkingabout more, like, thematic elements.
But, like, as far as, like,the show itself goes, it is also
very compelling in the set.
Like, do you like watching,like, you know, like, thriller stuff?
Do you like watching, like, alittle spy and espionage stuff?

(58:30):
Do you.
The horror stuff is still, youknow, like, the other stuff in the
show is still very well doneand very compelling.
It makes you want to watch,like you said.
Yeah.
It does have that element of horror.
Oh, yeah.
Especially now that when theywere in.
The factory abandonedwarehouse and.
And they start counting howmany of the smarter cordyceps are

(58:52):
there.
It got a little freaky fear.
That's.
That's exactly what I was.
That.
That was the moment I wasthinking of.
And then even later with the,like, you know, which they've done
before, but just the bodyhorror stuff of these people who
have been completely overtakenby the fungi.
That's right.
Which she bumps into in thebasement of the hospital, tracking

(59:15):
down Nora.
Very good work.
From the costume department orthe props and effects department.
And because it's reallyincredibly gross and kind of hard
to look at.
Yeah, but that's body horror, right?
Like, it's doing a good job.
HBO has done a great job offunding this, and you can see it

(59:36):
in every aspect.
Well, let's get into thispenultimate episode, and my question
for you, I think, to lead, is,how would this have worked for you
as a first episode part of it?
I think, like, I know that myemotions are being played with, and
I think this would have been amistake to have as the first episode

(59:57):
because I feel like losingPedro Pascal and really losing him.
I might be wrong, but I thinkhe wasn't even in the credits on
the episodes that he's in the opening.
Credits for the penultimate.
He was.
Yes, sorry, I meant in theopening credits for the episodes
that he was not in.
That's correct.
And then this one, I noticedthat he was back.
So I think that really losinghim and then going back and getting

(01:00:22):
all this context and havingsome gaps filled in does put us in
Ellie's shoes a little Bit wecan sort of understand, you know,
where she's coming from all ofa sudden.
I think it's really good.
I honestly think it would haveworked really great as a first episode.
Really?
Yeah.
Because you get this build upand then you'll get his death in

(01:00:45):
an episode or two and you as aviewer, it would just gut punch you
deeper rather than remindingyou of the gut punch.
It worked.
So either way, it worked forme with the context retroactively
making that scene.
And by God, what are theypaying Pedro Pascal?

(01:01:08):
Give the man more.
He's gonna make my predictionfor this.
My wife has not yet seen it.
I have seen it.
My wife has not yet seen it.
I.
I'm pretty sure I go back.
I am going to have to, like,have an ambulance on standby because
her body will be in danger ofshutting down from dehydration after
crying through.

(01:01:28):
Through this episode.
Yeah.
If you would have said, hey,Blaine, there's a video game television
show that's going to make youcry, I would have laughed you out
of the room.
A pair of two towering performances.
Yes.
Really, it's.
It's.
The other characters are secondary.

(01:01:48):
It's really, it's.
It's completely built aroundthat dynamic.
It is.
But they have roped insuperior actors for even small things.
Oh, absolutely.
Everyone who's in it is good.
Let's start with Tony Daltonplays Joel's dad.
Yeah.
My fucking God.
Tony Dalton is one of myfavorite minor characters in the

(01:02:10):
last 15 years.
He is the only good thingabout the Hawkeye show that was on,
man.
The humanity of this show withTony Dalton there.
And he has a presence thatvery much could take off his belt
and whip your ass.
But he instead, he reaches fora beer, slides it to Joel and says,

(01:02:34):
man, I'm just trying to bebetter than my dad was.
Dude, that hit me between the eyes.
It was.
I feel like that kind of beingone of the central themes of the
episode made this incredibly poignant.
You know, just because I thinkwe like, we all like the way that

(01:02:54):
we are raised.
Right?
Like, that's natural for us.
We just kind of.
We don't know anything else.
And at a certain point, lots,for lots of us, I think for.
For most people, maybe that'sall you can do is I just tried to
do a little bit like myparents tried to do a little bit
better than their parents andso on, you know, I just tried to
do a little bit better.
Isn't that the truth?

(01:03:15):
And then the way that Joeltries to share that with Ellie on
the porch.
And.
And he, you know, the.
In.
In the context, his revelationthat he would do it all over again
because, you know, he lovesher like a daughter.
Yeah.
I read it as, you know, he'snot an excuse, but he's giving this

(01:03:38):
to her.
But he's also offering it toher in some way in the sense that
he's like, kind of like, hey,I hope that when you think about
me, you won't think about meas the man who disappointed you and
let you down, but you willthink about me as someone who you
can build off of what I didand try and do just a little bit
better than I am.

(01:03:59):
Because he.
It's such a perfect, you know,the father's wish for a child.
Right.
Like, I hope that you'll dojust a little bit better than me.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, good grief.
When.
When Joel says he would havedone it again and he's like.
He's like, I knew you wouldturn away from me.
It just breaks your heart.
It does.

(01:04:19):
And it goes through the whole episode.
You know, there's bits wherehe talks of her as a daughter.
She uses the word partner.
You know, there's this kind ofpush and pull dynamic.
She doesn't really see him asher dad.
He very much sees her as his daughter.
And it just breaks your heart.
It does.
Absolutely.
Right.
In two.

(01:04:39):
And it.
Yes, it does.
It ties the two themestogether that I was worried it was
going to be such a dichotomy,but it.
But it ties the idea of I'vegot to be a little bit better than
what came before me, as wellas father daughter relationships.
Yeah.
And Joel and Ellie in thisepisode reminds us that great acting

(01:05:02):
and good storytelling canremind you of your own humanity.
Yeah.
Now, this one, I thought was aslam dunk and I think really, honestly,
really smartly kind of gave usa reason for the second season.
You know, if a lot of thefirst season is what would you do
for those you loved?
It's not actually thatinteresting to ask that over and
over again because the answeris horrible things.

(01:05:24):
Right.
Like, Joel has done horrible things.
Yeah.
But now the idea that he iscapable of recognizing that.
Yeah.
And that part of what he wantsfor Ellie is not to pass on a legacy
of violence.
He wants her.
He wants something a littlebit better for her.

(01:05:45):
And he can recognize thosefailures in.
Himself and they take itseriously somehow in a way that I'm
not equipped to explain versussomething like the Walking Dead.
Yeah.
They examine very similarthemes, but they Just don't.
It feels as though they can'ttake it quite as seriously when someone
dies on that show.

(01:06:07):
It's almost as if everyoneexpected it in the show.
Yeah, yeah, he was gonna die.
Okay.
Anyway, moving on.
You know, that's what it feels like.
More in the service of plotthan in any kind of.
You know, whereas this.
I know.
This is melodrama.
I know my feelings are beingplayed with.
Yeah.
I thought it worked very well,and I thought it.

(01:06:29):
By recontextualizing theseason and by showing us the reason
for the season existing.
Right.
Because now Ellie is, in someways, in Joel's shoes.
You know, she's growing up.
Yeah.
I thought it was pretty boldto have the Tony Dalton scene to
begin, because I don't know ifan extra scene with his real daughter
who dies in episode one,season one, I don't know if that

(01:06:53):
wouldn't re.
Emphasize his overprotective defect.
I actually thought the dadscene was perfect because it introduces
the note, and we alreadybasically had the first season to
remind us, and I feel likethey didn't rub our noses in it.
That's right, they didn't.
They chose not to just remindyou and rub your nose in it.

(01:07:15):
And I think they did dosomething really smart, too, which
is show.
Like, in a lot of ways, theirrelationship is a good thing.
Like, Joel is trying to giveher the things that his daughter
never lived long enough for.
Right.
He's trying to delight hereven in the midst of some of his
definite failings as a parent.
Right.

(01:07:36):
Like, he tries to stop, think,give her some space.
You know, there's a lot of.
There's a lot of good there,and we can kind of see that good
exists in and of itself.
And also as a tribute to hisdaughter who he lost.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I think makes thepainfulness of, like, he's doing

(01:07:56):
what he thinks is right, eventhough it's probably wrong, that
much bigger for me.
Pascal and Ramsey are havingto do some subtle things in small
moments.
Small.
Yeah.
Small moments for life, at least.
Not small moments for the show.
And they just carry so much weight.
Yeah.

(01:08:17):
That conversation on theporch, that's the.
Best acting that's been inthis show so far between two actors
who have, in fact, been quite good.
Yeah.
I couldn't believe how theywere able to pull that off with all
the cameras and crew around them.
It's such a quiet moment.
Yeah.

(01:08:37):
But that's.
That's why you want Pascal inthe role.
They're both actors that havea lot of strength with playing silly
and goofy and.
And they can do things thatmake you laugh, but they're like
the serious.
Both of them just brought it home.
Honestly, it broke my heart alittle bit when Ellie said to him,

(01:08:58):
I don't think I can forgiveyou, but I'd like to try.
And just that for Pedro, forJoel, giving.
I want you to do a little bitbetter than I did to her.
And then she hands it back asthe grace of, I don't think I can
forgive you, but I love youenough that I would.
I wanted to try to be inrelationship with you.

(01:09:21):
A person who might have donesomething that I can't forgive is
heartbreaking.
And then, of course, that's why.
Then we see Ellie in a wholenew light all of a sudden.
Yeah.
And I think we're tounderstand those are probably the
last things they said to one another.
They are.
Yep.
So we had.
We had thought that.
And maybe this was a.

(01:09:42):
This was a little cheap, butwe had thought that basically she
had gone to the garage and notsaid anything.
Anything.
And then he was killed.
Right.
But.
But this is much better to learn.
That they had been at thevery, very painful beginning of a
process of possible reconciliation.
That's what breaks your heart?
Well, it struck me deeply, asa father of a daughter, those.

(01:10:05):
Especially the opening sceneswhere he's just taking such.
Such pleasure in providing forher and giving her things.
It's beautiful.
One of the things that I thinkthat this show does smartly is that
it is not just miserabilia.
You know, if.
If there's things.
If everything's just bad allthe time, it's like, well, you might

(01:10:26):
as well be dead.
Right.
Who cares?
Your life is probably better.
But here we have people whoare like, you know, there's something
that is worth striving for intheir lives.
And so the light and the darkcontrast each other much better than,
oh, it's all just dark, dark,dark, dark, dark, dark.
Kind of like the Walking Dead.
Honestly, I hate to pick onthem, except I don't.
I don't think they're very good.

(01:10:47):
Yeah, well, the comparison iswarranted here, I think.
Yeah.
But I think that's anotherthing where they don't do a good
job of that because they, youknow, like, they're.
I think this show doesn't workunless there are genuinely good things
and good relationships inbetween people.
That's right.
I couldn't decide on thatfinal scene where we're back in Seattle

(01:11:12):
and she's walking back to the theater.
In the rain.
Yeah.
You know, I think that couldhave been saved for the opening scene
to next week as I wondered why.
Put that in there.
Yeah, I thought that.
I agree.
Honestly, this.
This went through my head,seeing it, because I agree with you,
Blaine.

(01:11:32):
I thought it was kind of interesting.
I mean, obviously it, like,sets you thinking about next week.
Yeah.
But I was like.
I was almost like, I wonder ifthis is in the video game or something.
Like, just because it seemedkind of like a video game, I'm like,
is this something like peoplemight be expecting?
Yeah.
I don't know.
I honestly don't know how much more.
Emotional resonance could wehave had with the ending, but with

(01:11:53):
them, with the.
Conversation, it's where Iwould have cut it.
Yeah.
But I'm not my.
I've not made a very good TVshow that's airing on hbo, so I guess,
you know, that's right.
That brings us to the end.
We will cover the finale next weekend.
My only worry about the finaleis this penultimate episode did so

(01:12:17):
much heavy lifting.
I wonder if it's going to beable to compare.
Yeah, they're going to have tohave some sort of cliffhanger, too,
because season three is already.
Right.
Planned to happen.
Game of Thrones and a lot ofthe other TV shows on HBO run into
this, too, where it's like,what with the finale, a lot of times
is, you know, whatever elseit's gonna be, it's gonna be an episode.

(01:12:40):
That is television in thesense that, like, it's a corporate
product that is designed to dothese things and.
Right.
Like, we're gonna have a cliffhanger.
All the stuff you just said.
Yeah.
Well, that's it for us.
We'll wish you goodbye.
And for Adam and Donovan, I'mBlaine, and we hope that you haven't
caught a fungus.
And we'll talk to you next week.