Culture strategist and leadership coach Jenni Catron takes a hard look at “clout killers”, and talks about exchanging fear for truth, comparison vs jealousy, combating a scarcity mentality, the duality of insecurity and pride, and how control means putting power over influence.
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Episode Transcript
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Host (00:19):
Jenni Catron has a knack and a love and a passion for
putting feet to vision, as shesays, and making vision reality.
She has had this book, and I'veknown about it for several
months, called Clout, discoverand unleash your God given
influence. So without furtherado, please help me welcome the
one and only miss Jenni Catron,Jenni, thanks so much for being
(00:42):
with us.
Jenni Catron (00:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
share a little bit more aboutthe book. Thank you so much.
This is awesome.
Host (00:49):
You know, why did you write this book? Like, where did
the idea come from? How did youget started?
Jenni Catron (00:53):
Yeah, yeah. You know, I've always been a
leadership junkie. Like, I don'tknow that even as a kid, I knew
how to what the word was, but Iknew what leadership looked
like, and it was something thatI was really drawn to. So, you
know, so I think just my wholelife, I've kind of aspired to
understanding leadership andwhat helps leaders tick, and,
you know, how we influenceothers, and what that looks
(01:14):
like. And so this book, cloutreally is, is a lot of my heart
kind of in written form of likethe things that I wished I had
known as a leader earlier onthat so maybe that I wouldn't
have misstepped, you know, insome certain ways along the way
and clout, discover and unleashyour God. Given influence is
just that idea that leadershipbegins with influence. You know,
(01:35):
I think John Maxwell is quotedwith saying, leadership is
influence, nothing more, nothingless. And I'll often push back
on that a little bit to go. Ithink leadership starts with
influence, but how we stewardthat influence impacts what how
we're able to really live outour leadership. So, you know? So
this was, to me, was, well, whatis the core of influence look
(01:56):
like? So if leadership startswith influence, what does it
mean to really develop thatinfluence, develop that clout,
if you will, that gives us theplatform to lead from. And so
this was kind of a journey forme of saying, You know what, I
see a lot of things in my lifethat are holding me back or
hindering me, tripping me upfrom really being the leader I
should be. And you know, we talkabout those in the book, I call
(02:17):
them the clout killers, but thenalso going, okay, so what do we
do with that? Like, how do wereally cultivate our influence?
How do we cultivate our clout insuch a way that we can allow
that sphere of influence thatwe've been given to impact
others, to really allow that tothrive and for that to shine? So
that's the heart and the spiritbehind the book.
Host (02:37):
And the seven clout killers, as you call them, are
really transformational, andthey're very real, and they're
things that leaders don't evenlike to admit, that they
struggle with.
Jenni Catron (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, I think you don't, and that's the
truth. And it's really the thingthat stuck out with all of the
clout killers, for me, is, youknow, what are the things that I
don't want to admit are there?But we all know that when we
just keep stuffing something wewe really aren't dealing with
it. It's, it's, it's affectingus, whether we're recognizing it
or not. And so what I found is Iwas kind of doing my research
(03:07):
for the book, and, you know, mypersonal stories, stories from
my leadership, other leadersthat I kind of studied, I
discovered that this fear issuewas really almost kind of the
root. I call it the front runnerof all the clout killers. It's
like fear triggers all theseother things. So I fear that I'm
not enough. So I deal withjealousy if you're not having
enough. So I'm deal withscarcity. I fear that I'm not
(03:29):
good enough. So I live withinsecurity. Like you see how
just these fear, this fear ofdifferent things, impacts our
influence and our our leadershipin different ways. So it's
really the when I boiled downlike anything, like I'm maybe
not engaging, there's usuallysome fear behind it, like, I
fear chaos, so I grapple forcontrol. And I think a lot of us
(03:50):
as leaders, you know, we like tokind of get a good handle on our
situations, and like to be ableto control our world. And
really, that's the fear ofchaos, you know. So just so many
of these different issues,there's just kind of an
underlying fear all the time of,Am I enough, you know, and and I
think when we kind of just arewilling to acknowledge that,
(04:10):
then we position ourselves to beable to grow from it and learn
from it. You know, fear kind ofimpacts you in different ways.
Sometimes it causes us to hide,sometimes it causes us to
isolate ourselves and kind ofclose ourselves off, and then
sometimes it just paralyzes us,which, I think for a lot of us
as leaders, it just paralyzesus, you know, I think you've got
to exchange that fear for what'strue, you know? And I think
(04:32):
there's a, there's an old quote,I don't know that I actually
used it in the book, but youknow, what's the, what's the
stat of how, how many of thefears we we have actually don't
happen, right? Like you, we'veall heard of that. Of you know,
how many fears that we haveactually don't happen. And the
thing that struck up, stuck outto me when I was studying this
and actually looking at somescripture for just biblical
foundation for this, was that,you know, I think a lot of times
(04:56):
we want to, we want to believethat we just are going to
overcome fear and. We're nevergoing to face fear. And over and
over in Scripture, like when thebiblical characters would face
fear, God would he would say, Donot fear. But he didn't say, Do
not fear because being fearfulis stupid. He said, Do not fear
because he had a response forthis. He had a way he was going
to handle this, that he wasthere. He was the great reward
(05:19):
I'm with you. Like over andover, when a leader was dealing
with fear, God was respondingwith how he was there to help
lead them through that. And so Ithink you know, when we're
confronting fear, so if you're aperson to say, you know, there's
a lot of biblical truth that wecan kind of hold on to, to
suggest that God is with usthrough this. And you know, even
(05:40):
if you're not a person of faith,there's still truth behind
things that sometimes we allowthose fears to convince us of.
You know, we kind of just spinoff into all the worst case
scenarios. And when you stop andyou go, Okay, what's the worst
thing that's going to happen?What's the real truth of if the
worst thing happened? What'sWhat does that mean? So it's
kind of that idea of exchangingthat fear for just what's true,
just getting rational for aminute. Because what does fear
(06:01):
do? It makes us irrational. Youknow, most of the time.
Host (06:04):
So now the next one is a comparison. And this one, I
think, is so acute. Why is it aclout killer?
Jenni Catron (06:12):
Yeah, you know. And I think comparison, it's
almost natural, you know, likewe are kind of wired to just
compare everything from the timewe're born like our we, you
know, we are. We get the GrowthPercentile chart, things you
know that tell us how we'restacking up to the rest of, you
know, kids in our age group. AndI think our culture just
conditions us to compareourselves to everyone else. But
(06:33):
the danger in that is that, andthis is kind of the spirit of
this whole book. The danger inthat is that I believe that God
has given us, like, this uniquesphere of influence, this unique
set of gifts, talents,experiences and opportunities
that no one else has yourspecific like, mix of those
things, right? And so when wecompare, you know, I'm not ever
(06:55):
going to be you. I'm not evergoing to be able to lead the way
you lead to, you know, encouragepeople the way you encourage
people to inspire people likeI'm not wired exactly like you.
We might have some things thatoverlap. We have a lot of things
that we enjoy, but if I try tobe you, that I'm going to
sabotage the thing that makes meme. And so, you know, I think
(07:15):
that comparison thing, I thinkwe're just so naturally wired by
society to give into it, that wedon't even realize that we're
doing it. And what, what I feellike we do on that is we miss
really cultivating anddeveloping the the influence we
have. You know, in trying tomimic somebody else, we actually
sabotage our own growth.
Host (07:34):
What's the difference between comparison and jealousy?
Because those two kind of seemto maybe dovetail or be related.
Jenni Catron (07:40):
Yeah they do kind of dovetail. And I think, you
know, comparison is I can lookat what somebody else is doing,
and I can, like, try to be thatjealousy, like it, like it gets
to that icky place where I, youknow, now I'm like, I'm really,
like, striving and workingtowards, you know, being jealous
or envious of what somebody elseis doing. So it really kind of
(08:02):
makes it about trying to almostsabotage the other person. Like
jealousy kind of takes thatnasty twist of, you know, I say
it's kind of like a cancer thateats, eats away at everything
that's good in our relationship.So jealousy takes that to Okay,
now you're my enemy, because I'mjealous of what you've
accomplished. Now it's not thatI've just compared myself and
I've tried to mimic you now.It's that, oh, you're now my
(08:25):
enemy, because I want to be likeyou, and I see where our gaps
are different, and so I'm goingto start being jealous of that,
and it's going to start erodingthe relationship component. You
start that comparison, and thenit turns into and I, at one
point, I talk about jealousy iskind of the irrational fear of
losing something or someonevaluable to you, you know. So
it's that all of a sudden itbecomes a competition, you know,
(08:47):
and it becomes and that's wherefear kind of mixes into the
whole equation. And, yeah,jealousy just goes to kind of
that ugly place of, now you'remy enemy rather than somebody
I'm celebrating because of youstewarding your God given
influence.
Host (09:02):
So scarcity is the fourth one?
Jenni Catron (09:05):
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this was one of
the ones that kind of snuck upon me and surprised me as a
leader. And I think, you know, Igrew up kind of in a, you know,
just, uh, you know, lower middleclass family. So we had, you
know, we struggled to make endsmeet some days, you know, sure.
And but in that there were somegood things that I learned in
just, you know, being frugal andmaking sure I manage my money
(09:26):
well. And, you know, so therewere certainly some really good
principles that came from that.But what it did is it taught me
to kind of hoard a little bitmore than normal, and not just
resources. It kind of, you know,it just was this overarching
tendency to just be scarce witheverything, because there's kind
of this underlying fear thatthere's not enough, you know. So
when you grow up, and so a lotof us, I think, come by that
(09:47):
scarcity mentality honestly, youknow, maybe so I didn't I grew
up in a home that didn't havejust a lot of resources. So I
can be scarce with resources,but maybe somebody grew up in a
home where there wasn't a lot oflove given. Our show. And so
you, you, you, you don't evenrealize it, because it's just
the culture you came from. Butyou can hoard, you know, just a
(10:08):
affirmation and really lovingand serving others well. And so
I think, you know, we have tokind of look at that and go, is
there a place in my leadershipwhere I have a tendency to
hoard? So another one where Ithink this shows up a lot is,
you know, if you're a leader inyour position for influence, you
know, are you taking all ofthose opportunities for the
spotlight, or, you know, tobring the idea to the table and
(10:32):
or are you, you know, reallyempowering other staff to be the
ones to share that or to bringthat up, or to to get the
spotlight, or, you know, so Ithink that's where you see it
happen a lot in leadership, isthat we're not quick to give the
praise or the the attention toother leaders around us.
Host (10:50):
And the next one is insecurity. And these are
definitely connected.
Jenni Catron (10:54):
Yeah, you know. And this is the one that none of
us want to admit, right? It'sthere, and it's, you know, that
it, and I describe it as aperpetual lack of confidence,
you know. And I think we can allrelate to that. But the problem
is, when we kind of live in thatperpetual lack of confidence, it
is impacting everyone elsearound us. And so, you know, I
think you've got to be willingto identify that and realize
(11:16):
where insecurity is kind ofholding you back from living
out, you know, living out yourinfluence in a healthy in a
healthy way. It's a biggie, andit can show up a lot of
different ways, you know. And Ithink we cover it up in a lot of
ways.
Host (11:30):
So pride, pride is the sixth. So we've got fear,
comparison, jealousy, scarcity,insecurity. And I know that
pride is often a sign of peoplewho are covering up something
else.
Jenni Catron (11:42):
Yep. In the book talking about pride, you know,
the like the Webster'sdefinition is in inordinate self
esteem, or excessive confidencein oneself. And when I started
to unpack this and look at otherleaders and myself, and you
know, see where pride shows up,it's really the illusion of
excessive self esteem, you know.So that goes back to that
(12:03):
insecurity piece of that. Youknow, as leaders, rarely are we
just really that prideful. We'reactually lacking some self
esteem, and so we're trying toproject that we have something
that we don't actually have. Soit's kind of like pride and
insecurity end up this big ballof mess where prides trying to
cover up, it just all becomesone big jumbled mess that we're
(12:25):
trying to untangle.
Host (12:27):
That's huge. Well, the last one is control.
Jenni Catron (12:30):
That's a funny one, because as leaders, we're,
we're so driven, right? And, youknow, we have such a drive that
kind of pushes us and we and westep into, you know, moments
where leadership is necessary.So we are kind of known for
being the ones to take controlwhen control is me, you know,
when that's necessary. Butthere's kind of a dark side to
(12:50):
it, where, when it's, you know,there's a lot of conversations
about the importance of servantleadership, and that as leaders,
we have to recognize that it'sour job to help others shine.
And so when you see controlcreeping in, it's when you're
really longing for power, ratherthan like longing for influence.
And I think that's a realdistinction that's important in
(13:12):
that, you know, this longing forpower is an indicator that we're
not content with the influencewe're given. So if we're trying
to, you know, manufacturecontrol of a situation I often
talk about like the idea of, youknow, we've been given this
influence, our leadership, ourclout, and it's kind of placed
in our hands as this thing we'reresponsible to, kind of care,
(13:33):
take, to steward. But I'm one ofthose people who loves control.
So what do I do? I kind of curlmy fingers around it, and I kind
of put a death grip on it andtry to manipulate and control
everything, you know, and whathappens? You're squeezing the
life out of it rather thanletting it grow and develop. And
so I think we have to look forthat tension in ourself as
leaders. Is, when am I, youknow, being responsible for the
(13:56):
influence I have and I'm gently,kind of blood, guiding it and
directing it, or when am Itrying to, like, manipulate it
and control it? And I mean,you're going to be the best Gage
for yourself on when you'redoing those things and when it's
it's moving to control ratherthan influence, if that makes
sense. But there's a real dancethere, because as leaders, we do
(14:17):
need to step up and actuallylead. But that can cross the
line into, you know,controlling, obsessive control
if we're not careful.
Host (14:25):
Wow. Well, Jenni Catron, folks, you can check her out.
Jennicatron.com, Jenni, thankyou for being with us. Thank you
for your wisdom. Thank you forwhat you do as a leader. And we
wish you all the best.
Jenni Catron (14:37):
Thank you so much. It was wonderful to talk this
through with you, and Iappreciate the conversation.
Thank you.
Jenni Catron has a knack and a love and a passion for
putting feet to vision, as shesays, and making vision reality.
She has had this book, and I'veknown about it for several
months, called Clout, discoverand unleash your God given
influence. So without furtherado, please help me welcome the
one and only miss Jenni Catron,Jenni, thanks so much for being
(00:42):
with us.
Jenni Catron (00:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
share a little bit more aboutthe book. Thank you so much.
This is awesome.
Host (00:49):
You know, why did you write this book? Like, where did
the idea come from? How did youget started?
Jenni Catron (00:53):
Yeah, yeah. You know, I've always been a
leadership junkie. Like, I don'tknow that even as a kid, I knew
how to what the word was, but Iknew what leadership looked
like, and it was something thatI was really drawn to. So, you
know, so I think just my wholelife, I've kind of aspired to
understanding leadership andwhat helps leaders tick, and,
you know, how we influenceothers, and what that looks
(01:14):
like. And so this book, cloutreally is, is a lot of my heart
kind of in written form of likethe things that I wished I had
known as a leader earlier onthat so maybe that I wouldn't
have misstepped, you know, insome certain ways along the way
and clout, discover and unleashyour God. Given influence is
just that idea that leadershipbegins with influence. You know,
(01:35):
I think John Maxwell is quotedwith saying, leadership is
influence, nothing more, nothingless. And I'll often push back
on that a little bit to go. Ithink leadership starts with
influence, but how we stewardthat influence impacts what how
we're able to really live outour leadership. So, you know? So
this was, to me, was, well, whatis the core of influence look
(01:56):
like? So if leadership startswith influence, what does it
mean to really develop thatinfluence, develop that clout,
if you will, that gives us theplatform to lead from. And so
this was kind of a journey forme of saying, You know what, I
see a lot of things in my lifethat are holding me back or
hindering me, tripping me upfrom really being the leader I
should be. And you know, we talkabout those in the book, I call
(02:17):
them the clout killers, but thenalso going, okay, so what do we
do with that? Like, how do wereally cultivate our influence?
How do we cultivate our clout insuch a way that we can allow
that sphere of influence thatwe've been given to impact
others, to really allow that tothrive and for that to shine? So
that's the heart and the spiritbehind the book.
Host (02:37):
And the seven clout killers, as you call them, are
really transformational, andthey're very real, and they're
things that leaders don't evenlike to admit, that they
struggle with.
Jenni Catron (02:47):
Yeah, yeah, I think you don't, and that's the
truth. And it's really the thingthat stuck out with all of the
clout killers, for me, is, youknow, what are the things that I
don't want to admit are there?But we all know that when we
just keep stuffing something wewe really aren't dealing with
it. It's, it's, it's affectingus, whether we're recognizing it
or not. And so what I found is Iwas kind of doing my research
(03:07):
for the book, and, you know, mypersonal stories, stories from
my leadership, other leadersthat I kind of studied, I
discovered that this fear issuewas really almost kind of the
root. I call it the front runnerof all the clout killers. It's
like fear triggers all theseother things. So I fear that I'm
not enough. So I deal withjealousy if you're not having
enough. So I'm deal withscarcity. I fear that I'm not
(03:29):
good enough. So I live withinsecurity. Like you see how
just these fear, this fear ofdifferent things, impacts our
influence and our our leadershipin different ways. So it's
really the when I boiled downlike anything, like I'm maybe
not engaging, there's usuallysome fear behind it, like, I
fear chaos, so I grapple forcontrol. And I think a lot of us
(03:50):
as leaders, you know, we like tokind of get a good handle on our
situations, and like to be ableto control our world. And
really, that's the fear ofchaos, you know. So just so many
of these different issues,there's just kind of an
underlying fear all the time of,Am I enough, you know, and and I
think when we kind of just arewilling to acknowledge that,
(04:10):
then we position ourselves to beable to grow from it and learn
from it. You know, fear kind ofimpacts you in different ways.
Sometimes it causes us to hide,sometimes it causes us to
isolate ourselves and kind ofclose ourselves off, and then
sometimes it just paralyzes us,which, I think for a lot of us
as leaders, it just paralyzesus, you know, I think you've got
to exchange that fear for what'strue, you know? And I think
(04:32):
there's a, there's an old quote,I don't know that I actually
used it in the book, but youknow, what's the, what's the
stat of how, how many of thefears we we have actually don't
happen, right? Like you, we'veall heard of that. Of you know,
how many fears that we haveactually don't happen. And the
thing that struck up, stuck outto me when I was studying this
and actually looking at somescripture for just biblical
foundation for this, was that,you know, I think a lot of times
(04:56):
we want to, we want to believethat we just are going to
overcome fear and. We're nevergoing to face fear. And over and
over in Scripture, like when thebiblical characters would face
fear, God would he would say, Donot fear. But he didn't say, Do
not fear because being fearfulis stupid. He said, Do not fear
because he had a response forthis. He had a way he was going
to handle this, that he wasthere. He was the great reward
(05:19):
I'm with you. Like over andover, when a leader was dealing
with fear, God was respondingwith how he was there to help
lead them through that. And so Ithink you know, when we're
confronting fear, so if you're aperson to say, you know, there's
a lot of biblical truth that wecan kind of hold on to, to
suggest that God is with usthrough this. And you know, even
(05:40):
if you're not a person of faith,there's still truth behind
things that sometimes we allowthose fears to convince us of.
You know, we kind of just spinoff into all the worst case
scenarios. And when you stop andyou go, Okay, what's the worst
thing that's going to happen?What's the real truth of if the
worst thing happened? What'sWhat does that mean? So it's
kind of that idea of exchangingthat fear for just what's true,
just getting rational for aminute. Because what does fear
(06:01):
do? It makes us irrational. Youknow, most of the time.
Host (06:04):
So now the next one is a comparison. And this one, I
think, is so acute. Why is it aclout killer?
Jenni Catron (06:12):
Yeah, you know. And I think comparison, it's
almost natural, you know, likewe are kind of wired to just
compare everything from the timewe're born like our we, you
know, we are. We get the GrowthPercentile chart, things you
know that tell us how we'restacking up to the rest of, you
know, kids in our age group. AndI think our culture just
conditions us to compareourselves to everyone else. But
(06:33):
the danger in that is that, andthis is kind of the spirit of
this whole book. The danger inthat is that I believe that God
has given us, like, this uniquesphere of influence, this unique
set of gifts, talents,experiences and opportunities
that no one else has yourspecific like, mix of those
things, right? And so when wecompare, you know, I'm not ever
(06:55):
going to be you. I'm not evergoing to be able to lead the way
you lead to, you know, encouragepeople the way you encourage
people to inspire people likeI'm not wired exactly like you.
We might have some things thatoverlap. We have a lot of things
that we enjoy, but if I try tobe you, that I'm going to
sabotage the thing that makes meme. And so, you know, I think
(07:15):
that comparison thing, I thinkwe're just so naturally wired by
society to give into it, that wedon't even realize that we're
doing it. And what, what I feellike we do on that is we miss
really cultivating anddeveloping the the influence we
have. You know, in trying tomimic somebody else, we actually
sabotage our own growth.
Host (07:34):
What's the difference between comparison and jealousy?
Because those two kind of seemto maybe dovetail or be related.
Jenni Catron (07:40):
Yeah they do kind of dovetail. And I think, you
know, comparison is I can lookat what somebody else is doing,
and I can, like, try to be thatjealousy, like it, like it gets
to that icky place where I, youknow, now I'm like, I'm really,
like, striving and workingtowards, you know, being jealous
or envious of what somebody elseis doing. So it really kind of
(08:02):
makes it about trying to almostsabotage the other person. Like
jealousy kind of takes thatnasty twist of, you know, I say
it's kind of like a cancer thateats, eats away at everything
that's good in our relationship.So jealousy takes that to Okay,
now you're my enemy, because I'mjealous of what you've
accomplished. Now it's not thatI've just compared myself and
I've tried to mimic you now.It's that, oh, you're now my
(08:25):
enemy, because I want to be likeyou, and I see where our gaps
are different, and so I'm goingto start being jealous of that,
and it's going to start erodingthe relationship component. You
start that comparison, and thenit turns into and I, at one
point, I talk about jealousy iskind of the irrational fear of
losing something or someonevaluable to you, you know. So
it's that all of a sudden itbecomes a competition, you know,
(08:47):
and it becomes and that's wherefear kind of mixes into the
whole equation. And, yeah,jealousy just goes to kind of
that ugly place of, now you'remy enemy rather than somebody
I'm celebrating because of youstewarding your God given
influence.
Host (09:02):
So scarcity is the fourth one?
Jenni Catron (09:05):
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this was one of
the ones that kind of snuck upon me and surprised me as a
leader. And I think, you know, Igrew up kind of in a, you know,
just, uh, you know, lower middleclass family. So we had, you
know, we struggled to make endsmeet some days, you know, sure.
And but in that there were somegood things that I learned in
just, you know, being frugal andmaking sure I manage my money
(09:26):
well. And, you know, so therewere certainly some really good
principles that came from that.But what it did is it taught me
to kind of hoard a little bitmore than normal, and not just
resources. It kind of, you know,it just was this overarching
tendency to just be scarce witheverything, because there's kind
of this underlying fear thatthere's not enough, you know. So
when you grow up, and so a lotof us, I think, come by that
(09:47):
scarcity mentality honestly, youknow, maybe so I didn't I grew
up in a home that didn't havejust a lot of resources. So I
can be scarce with resources,but maybe somebody grew up in a
home where there wasn't a lot oflove given. Our show. And so
you, you, you, you don't evenrealize it, because it's just
the culture you came from. Butyou can hoard, you know, just a
(10:08):
affirmation and really lovingand serving others well. And so
I think, you know, we have tokind of look at that and go, is
there a place in my leadershipwhere I have a tendency to
hoard? So another one where Ithink this shows up a lot is,
you know, if you're a leader inyour position for influence, you
know, are you taking all ofthose opportunities for the
spotlight, or, you know, tobring the idea to the table and
(10:32):
or are you, you know, reallyempowering other staff to be the
ones to share that or to bringthat up, or to to get the
spotlight, or, you know, so Ithink that's where you see it
happen a lot in leadership, isthat we're not quick to give the
praise or the the attention toother leaders around us.
Host (10:50):
And the next one is insecurity. And these are
definitely connected.
Jenni Catron (10:54):
Yeah, you know. And this is the one that none of
us want to admit, right? It'sthere, and it's, you know, that
it, and I describe it as aperpetual lack of confidence,
you know. And I think we can allrelate to that. But the problem
is, when we kind of live in thatperpetual lack of confidence, it
is impacting everyone elsearound us. And so, you know, I
think you've got to be willingto identify that and realize
(11:16):
where insecurity is kind ofholding you back from living
out, you know, living out yourinfluence in a healthy in a
healthy way. It's a biggie, andit can show up a lot of
different ways, you know. And Ithink we cover it up in a lot of
ways.
Host (11:30):
So pride, pride is the sixth. So we've got fear,
comparison, jealousy, scarcity,insecurity. And I know that
pride is often a sign of peoplewho are covering up something
else.
Jenni Catron (11:42):
Yep. In the book talking about pride, you know,
the like the Webster'sdefinition is in inordinate self
esteem, or excessive confidencein oneself. And when I started
to unpack this and look at otherleaders and myself, and you
know, see where pride shows up,it's really the illusion of
excessive self esteem, you know.So that goes back to that
(12:03):
insecurity piece of that. Youknow, as leaders, rarely are we
just really that prideful. We'reactually lacking some self
esteem, and so we're trying toproject that we have something
that we don't actually have. Soit's kind of like pride and
insecurity end up this big ballof mess where prides trying to
cover up, it just all becomesone big jumbled mess that we're
(12:25):
trying to untangle.
Host (12:27):
That's huge. Well, the last one is control.
Jenni Catron (12:30):
That's a funny one, because as leaders, we're,
we're so driven, right? And, youknow, we have such a drive that
kind of pushes us and we and westep into, you know, moments
where leadership is necessary.So we are kind of known for
being the ones to take controlwhen control is me, you know,
when that's necessary. Butthere's kind of a dark side to
(12:50):
it, where, when it's, you know,there's a lot of conversations
about the importance of servantleadership, and that as leaders,
we have to recognize that it'sour job to help others shine.
And so when you see controlcreeping in, it's when you're
really longing for power, ratherthan like longing for influence.
And I think that's a realdistinction that's important in
(13:12):
that, you know, this longing forpower is an indicator that we're
not content with the influencewe're given. So if we're trying
to, you know, manufacturecontrol of a situation I often
talk about like the idea of, youknow, we've been given this
influence, our leadership, ourclout, and it's kind of placed
in our hands as this thing we'reresponsible to, kind of care,
(13:33):
take, to steward. But I'm one ofthose people who loves control.
So what do I do? I kind of curlmy fingers around it, and I kind
of put a death grip on it andtry to manipulate and control
everything, you know, and whathappens? You're squeezing the
life out of it rather thanletting it grow and develop. And
so I think we have to look forthat tension in ourself as
leaders. Is, when am I, youknow, being responsible for the
(13:56):
influence I have and I'm gently,kind of blood, guiding it and
directing it, or when am Itrying to, like, manipulate it
and control it? And I mean,you're going to be the best Gage
for yourself on when you'redoing those things and when it's
it's moving to control ratherthan influence, if that makes
sense. But there's a real dancethere, because as leaders, we do
(14:17):
need to step up and actuallylead. But that can cross the
line into, you know,controlling, obsessive control
if we're not careful.
Host (14:25):
Wow. Well, Jenni Catron, folks, you can check her out.
Jennicatron.com, Jenni, thankyou for being with us. Thank you
for your wisdom. Thank you forwhat you do as a leader. And we
wish you all the best.
Jenni Catron (14:37):
Thank you so much. It was wonderful to talk this
through with you, and Iappreciate the conversation.
Thank you.
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