May 20, 2025 • 25 mins
High-growth strategy specialist, executive advisor, and lecturer at the London Business School, Dr. Rebecca Homkes, explains how growth is a loop, not a line, and lays out the 4 C's that threaten a business, the 6 questions to ask in the middle of a strategy reset, the 3 things thriving organizations have, the difference between a teaching and a learning organization, and how to establish your MUST-WIN battles.
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Stephanie Maas (00:00):
How are you?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (00:34):
Excellent!
Stephanie Maas (00:35):
Let's start with your book, Survive, Reset and
Thrive.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (00:40):
Yeah, I'd love to thanks so much for
asking. So Survive, Reset,Thrive was written in starting
in the spring of 2020 but it wasbased on frameworks and guidance
that I've been using for for adecade before that, you know,
most of the book is things thatI've been doing with companies
who are looking to go on agrowth journey, and what
happened in that period of time,which was not dissimilar to
(01:00):
happened in Brexit in 2016 herein the UK, or in 2022 is that
entrepreneur leaders werecalling me and saying the same
thing they were saying. Why me?Why now we had this growth
pathway. Things were working,and now we've got this crisis
right. And I found myself sayingthe same things over and over
again, like, yes, we're facingkind of a change situation, so
(01:22):
we have to survive andstabilize. Then we need to
reset, because the strategy wehad before needs to update for
the changing time, and then youcan go back to being a Thrive
company, but we've got to gothrough this loop, and after
repeating the same guidance forweeks at a time, you know, I
just finally wrote it down in anemail. It was sent out on a
Saturday night. I got, you know,100% response rate on the Sunday
saying, this is the most usefulthing I've read. I'm going to
(01:44):
send it to every CEO I know. Andthat article kind of became a
workshop. The workshop became aprogram, and then about a year
and a half, two years later, itbecame the book.
Stephanie Maas (01:52):
Super cool. So one of the things you just
mentioned that I want to pull onthis string a little bit is you
mentioned it's a loop. Walk methrough that, because I think
when most folks hear this, it'smore of a checklist. Okay, we
survived that check. Now we'vereset check throughout, but you
mentioned the word loop, so walkme through that.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (02:10):
Absolutely. You know, everything in growth
is a loop, not a line. And thatsounds really simple to say, but
we really love checklists ashuman beings and send us
managers and leaders ofcompanies we love to be done
with things right when youfinally check something off, you
know, develop strategy done,communicate strategy done,
execute priority done. Andthat's not how a changing world
(02:32):
that we're facing and executingour strategies are in. It's
constantly going to be movingand evolving. So we need to move
from this checklist mindset ofhow we approach strategy and
growth into this loop mindset.And there's a lot of power in
doing that, right? So survivorsthat thrive is a loop, and what
happens, let's make it morepractical, is you can be in
Thrive mode, and everything canbe going great, and there can be
(02:54):
a shock to the system that sendsyou back to survive. These can
be external shocks. You know?You can have a surprise interest
rate a surprise election, youcould have a big macro event
like war or COVID, but you couldalso have an investor pull out
or lose a major customer, andwhen that happens, you've got to
go back into survive mode. Andwe don't want to do that. We
feel once we've gone through thesteps to thrive, we'll stay
(03:15):
there. But there's real humilityin losing the ego and saying
it's time to survive. Then theycan go back to reset again. Then
they can go back to thrive. Sowe need to embrace this loop
mentality be able to growthrough these different changes
that we're facing as we'retrying to lead our companies
through this uncertainty.
Stephanie Maas (03:31):
So let's start with, you know when, and I
really love how you said youhave to, you know, embrace the
humility to recognize, hey,we're in survival. How do you
know, other than you coming insaying, Hey, by the way, you
know, or the profits tanking,what are some key
characteristics that, you know,okay, we need to go back, or
this is where we're at.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (03:51):
I think most of us intuitively know when our
organizations are in that mode.And part of what I'm trying to
do with survive, reset thrive,is give you permission to make
that pause to say, hey, thesurvive mode is actually not
only opposite of growth, it'spart of growth, right? Going
through survive andrestabilizing is a critical part
of the growth journey, notantithesis of it. And like
giving you permission, I knowthat sounds overly simple,
(04:13):
Stephanie, but that's a key partof it, right? Is you've got to
take that pause, because most ofus know we just don't want to
admit it without kind of thereason for it. So what happens
when some of your basics arecompromised? And I call the
basics the four C's or cash costcustomers communication. You
know when something startsimpacting our cash flow? You
know when our costs are growingfaster than our revenue for a
(04:36):
reason, outside of hyper growthor doing something like a land
grab, when we've lost acustomer, or seeing customer
churn, or having issues with ourcustomers, or communication
becomes broken or spotty, orlots of friction, because kind
of go through your four C's. Andwhat I recommend organizations
do is set the baseline, not thegoals, but the baseline, like,
where's the minimum any of thesefour C's should be at any point
(04:59):
in time? And when those gettriggered, that's the pause
point to go into survive mode.And there's real power again in
knowing when you're in it andadmitting it. Now, I always feel
like I'm badly paraphrasingFight Club. You know, the first
step is kind of admitting it,but the first step of being
survive is admitting you're insurvive, because now we can
handle it right now, we can takeall those proactive steps to
(05:20):
stabilize and move again out ofsurvive, because you don't want
to be in survive longer than youhave to. But, and there's a big
but, this is a yes, but not ayes. And the longer you refuse
to admit that you need to takethat stabilize, you're actually
losing a lot of things that youneed across those four C's. So
the simplest is set thosebaseline triggers for cash cost
customers and communication, andwhen you start approaching them,
(05:42):
then it's time to take thepause.
Stephanie Maas (05:44):
So when folks take the pause in your
experience, where have you seenleaders just really handle this
well, like, what have they doneto handle this pause,
recognition of survive, etc.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (05:59):
You know, I actually had this experience.
And, you know, you can just feelproud of an entrepreneur when
they're like, wow, like, youknow, you can handle all these
steps. Well, I had a companywho, one of their major
companies, you know, spun out asubsidiary. The subsidiary went
bankrupt, so they were facingmillions of, you know, euros not
going to be paid to them at theend of the year. And when you're
(06:20):
a small to medium sizedenterprise, a couple of million
not coming in does impact you,right? When you're not a major
organization. So we're goinginto survive mode. You know, a
lot of that cash cost customerWell, actually, three of our
kind of triggers, if you will,have been broken, and they had a
Strategy Workshop scheduled toreset the growth strategy for
the next year. You know, theclassic response, which is not
the right one, by the way, is tocancel the workshop, you know,
(06:42):
all hands on deck, focus onoperational metrics. He still
got his team together, and theyrepurpose that time to go
through their survive metrics,you know, make actionable plans
on what they need to do acrossall the four C's look at their
top priority and say, Okay, whatstill goes like? What pauses,
you know, what changes? And theteam left the most energized I'd
seen them, you know, in a coupleof years when what should have
(07:03):
been, you know, one of the worsttimes they've been in the past
five years. But they use thetime to say, we know what to do
here. We've already got the timescheduled. We're going to go
through, survive, we're going tobe stabilized. And they gave
themselves a deadline, you know,by the end of key one next year.
We want to see progress on allof these. We're going to be back
to growth mode at by the end ofq2 and that's what we want
people to do. The temptation, Iwant to repeat purposely. The
(07:26):
temptation is to canceleverything related to strategy
and just tell people to be headsdown, execution mode. In survive
mode. You are still in learningcode. You want people heads up,
listening, learning, gettingthese feedbacks, emails from the
market, incorporating that in sowe can move into reset as soon
as possible.
Stephanie Maas (07:44):
Okay, so then we move into reset, and my mind
immediately goes to, you knowthat that on your phone, when
you can't get it to work, you goto the Hard Reset, but the trade
off is you lose everything. Imean, it's like worst case
scenario. You're starting allover. Walk me through what reset
looks like from your perspectiveand your counsel.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (08:03):
You know that's funny, because hard
resets do happen, but like allof us with our phones, man, you
don't want them to right? Butlook, hard resets are, are not
the normal reset. The normalreset. You turn the phone off,
right? You gotta pause and waita minute, which was probably
good anyway, because you weregetting frustrated, right? It
turns back on, boom, you'reready to go again, right? So in
a reset, you pause and with theteam, you answer some critical
(08:27):
questions that you need toanswer for growth. And those
questions are six, what's goingon and how's it going to change,
and what is success? So whereare we going to play? How are we
going to win? What could stopus? So what should we do? Go
through those six questions,reset the situation. What are
changing beliefs about thechanging time? Reset their right
to win. How are we really goingto compete in that changing
(08:48):
world? What's that mean forwhere to play choices define a
new finish line or where youwant to be at the end of the
cycle, address the challengesand then figure out your top
priorities. You know, a normalreset takes kind of a couple of
months for any sort of mid sizeorganization, a couple of weeks
for a very small one couldstretch longer for a big
organization, though I'm neverhappy about it, but that's just
what scheduling happens, kind ofin these large organizations,
(09:10):
and the majority of the time.Stephanie, that's what it is.
You go through those sixquestions, you reset, you
update, and there's power indoing that every three years,
even if you don't feel thesituation is fundamentally
changed. Now, occasionally thosehard resets do happen, and what
happens is, as you start to gothrough those questions, you
realize Everything's changed.All the fundamental assumptions
(09:33):
you had that went into yourprevious growth strategies have
now changed. Completelydifferent situation. Your right
to win is eroded, your where toplay choices all need to update
the finish lines you had are nowcompletely outdated, are no
longer relevant. And when thathappens, you do need to declare
a hard reset and to make it morepractical. We're facing these.
We're watching these in themarket right now. We're watching
(09:54):
Starbucks and Boeing and, youknow, all of these companies,
Nike, bur. Area going throughhard resets right now, and
that's what's happening. Theboard realized it wasn't
working. CEO out, new CEO in allof these challenges of being
revisited. Now this process takea couple of months to a year.
But you know what hard resetscan be? The most powerful thing
(10:14):
that happened for anorganization, we sometimes see
the most dramatic growthjourneys after hard reset
happens.
Stephanie Maas (10:20):
Okay, so we've realized things have changed.
We're refocused. Now it's timeto thrive.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (10:28):
Well, first, I appreciate your patience of
asking about survive and resetfirst, because most people want
to jump straight to the Thrive.All I really want to do is talk
about thriving. Can I just skipto that part? And I originally
joked with the publisher. Iwasn't joking, but they didn't
take me seriously. You know,let's only send people the first
eight chapters of the book. Andyou know, once they've read
those, they can apply becauseyou got to do the hard work of
(10:51):
the survive and the reset firstbefore you can get to thrive.
Because I know my entrepreneurs,right, they jumped right to
chapter 10 because that's thepart that they cared about. But
look, thrive is not a given. Ithas to be earned. And just
because you've reset thestrategy, what you also need to
reset is your executioncapability. Now, different
strategies demand differentthings from the organization, in
(11:12):
terms of our hardware, like ourprocesses and wiring, our
software, like our culture andbehaviors, the top team that we
need to lead, it our distributedleaders to really guide
execution in this sharedunderstanding. So this
transition from the reset tothrive is actually the really
difficult part, and morefriction happens there than the
transition from survive toreset, because we assume that
(11:33):
that's the more simple pathway.But resetting a strategy means
you need to reset your executioncapability and capacity as well,
and that could take some time,but you got to be super honest
about what's working and what'snot, be prepared to rebuild and
reset, then you can become oneof these Thrive organizations.
And it's a simple recipe. Thriveorganizations have three things,
(11:53):
strong balance sheets, strategicinsights, and they execute with
agility and learning, right? Youbring your strong balance sheet
through from the survive phase,your strategic insights from the
reset phase, and then youexecute with agility and
learning, because strategy is aliving, breathing document, and
we're going to learn and adjustand change as we go. And that's
a key part of being thrive isagain, I'm going to say one of
(12:15):
the things you can say to methat really makes me mad is two
things. I'll give you two thingsnot to say to me. Thing one,
just say, oh, Rebecca, we're inheads down execution mode. My
first response is, well, get outof that, right? I want you in
heads up learning mode, right?And this second is, if you ever
send me a document labeledstrategy, final, all caps, I
have this new thing now. I don'teven open it. I just reply back
(12:37):
to the email and I say, No, it'snot never final. We're going to
keep updating and adjusting aswe're going.
Stephanie Maas (12:45):
Very cool. Okay, let's talk about that for a
second, this continuouslearning. I think that that's a
huge difference maker betweenleaders that really do thrive
and ones that don't. Butoftentimes there. I think a lot
of folks fight this naturalstate of, hey, we're here. Let's
(13:06):
not rock the boat and just stayhere. And they don't come out
and say, I'm done learning, buttheir actions show that. So walk
me through this idea and conceptabout keeping learning a
critical part of this process.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (13:18):
Yeah, thank you for asking, Stephanie. It is
not only a critical part. It isthe most critical part is that
in now close to 15 years ofworking with high growth and
high performance organizations,I will say quite simply, it is
the number one differentiator.Organizations that learn faster
are organizations that growfaster. It is the ultimate
differentiator, and frankly,differentiator because it's
(13:40):
hard. A lot of us prideourselves on being learning
organizations, because we domonthly webinars, or we have
town halls, or we have sharesessions, or we have book clubs,
or we go to business schools,like all really cool things like
keep doing them, but that'sbeing a teaching organization,
not a learning organization,right? Being a learning
organization is what you alludedto, saying. We don't have all of
(14:00):
the answers yet. So here's thequestions we need to ask, using
your customers as learningpartners, you know, not just
transactional vehicles,encouraging kind of constant
experimentation and testing andlearning while executing, never
assuming that every variable andevery metric we have in the plan
is the perfect one, right?Because things are going to
change as we go. And this is adifferent culture. Now, being a
(14:23):
learning organization doesn'tmean that we're changing things
all the time, right? Learning isactually very, you know,
methodical, like engineers cando this learning velocity too.
In fact, they're quite good atit, right? You know, you can
build all of these thingsforward, but you've got to kind
of, again, break the notion thatonce something is in a plan, the
plan must be executed. I know itsounds silly, but words matter.
(14:44):
I've said, let's stop callingthem strategic plans. There's
something about the word plan,right? It just frames our brain.
Everything in this must getdone, and I want it framed as
I'm going to keep learning asI'm going this strategy is just
my best hypothesis of wheregrowth is. Going to come from
over the next three years. Likeany hypothesis, I got a lot of
it right and probably some of itwrong. So I'm going to keep
(15:05):
learning and adjusting as I go.
Stephanie Maas (15:07):
Okay, so now there are strategic hypotheses.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (15:10):
Yes, I'm just dropping the plan word again.
Frames matter, right? And assoon as our brains are framed
that everything must get done, Iget heads down, and I want
people heads up, learning andmoving as we go.
Stephanie Maas (15:21):
Okay, I just have to go back and highlight
two things that you said,because I think they're so
critical and we just don't hearthem. One is, you define the
difference between learning andteaching. I've heard it 101
times. People say, hey, we doall these things, but the way
that you turn that, nope, that'swhen you're teaching. But then
going back to ask questions. Ithink that's the second thing.
(15:42):
And so many times when we getout of a learning mode is when
we stop asking questions. And toyour point, we don't have to be
in a constant change mode, butthat's real feedback. That's how
we know are we going to get towhere we think we want to go, or
do we need to change ourstrategy? Because where we
thought we were going isn'treally where our demand is, and
(16:02):
learning is asking questions,and continuous learning is not
teaching. Talk to me about amust win battle.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (16:11):
Well, first, I'm agnostic to the language
that you pick as anorganization, right? So my only
thing is whatever term you usefor your top strategic
priorities. That term must haveintegrity, so you can't use it
for anything else. So if you'regoing to have five strategic
priorities, great. The wordpriority is now protected. It
can only refer to those fivethings, goals. Rocks again. You
(16:34):
do you right? I said not torecently at a summit, you know,
some of the President wassaying, Well, you know, the CEO
doesn't like the term must winbattles. Can we call them so and
so? And I said, Look, call themdrafts. As long as you execute.
It's like pick one word, right?That's all I care about. So I
started using the term must winbattle. I've got some colleagues
at IMD who use it as well,because we have a massive
(16:55):
language inside organizations.Now you go to any company from
10 employees to 100,000 theyhave goals, priorities, aims,
rocks, OKRs, KPIs, targets. Icould keep going and going,
right? And this isn't smallorganizations. That happens. So
put yourself as an employee. IfI've got all of these lists of
things, which in the Englishdictionary all translate to most
(17:16):
important thing, what am Iworking on every day? Right? And
you need something that cutsabout the noise and says, No,
these are the must wins. And Ilove the language of must win
battle, not nice to have battle,not business as usual battle,
but these are must wins forgrowth. And there's really
power. The absolute clarity ofthis is what we must do to get
(17:37):
to that finish line you want,the midterm you want them
clearly focused on valuecreation, and you want them to
cut across the organization. Agreat test for Do I have the
right list of must win battlesis that I just rename my
departments. By that, I mean ifyou have a marketing one, a
sales one, a product one, and apeople one, you don't have a
(18:01):
strategy. You've just renamedyour departments, right? A great
must win battle cuts across theorganization, because that's how
we truly create value. We pullfrom the best and do this
integrated approach to what ittakes to drive growth. And
that's what you're looking forin a must win again midterm, two
to three years, focus on valuecreation, market oriented cuts
(18:21):
across the organization to bringout the best of what you have.
Stephanie Maas (18:25):
Give me, if you can, don't you to violate any
confidences. But can you help uspoint to a real life example of
a company, an organization thatyou've seen go through this loop
successfully, just so we get areal life idea of what it looks
like?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (18:39):
Yeah, you know, you know, I've named, you
know, luckily, I've gotwonderful companies that I work
with, so almost all of them werewilling to be named in the book.
So, you know, Deputy 40 companyhas gone through this cycle a
couple of times now. And I lovethat example, because they're
one of the, also the very fewcompanies I work with where
their culture is actually partof their right to win and their
must win battles are focused onwhere growth is coming from,
(19:01):
right, not necessarily wheregrowth has been. So great
example there Gorilla Gluecompany, another company based
in the US, but of course,growing globally very quickly.
They're on their second cycle ofmuslin battles. So successful,
we had to reset a year earlyright from the original plan,
because they're going to thatnext stage of growth. And the
company I just mentioned,they're smaller than in Primex,
(19:22):
based in Latvia and Riga, Latviaone of my favorite places to
visit, by the way, and they'reon their third cycle, and
they've doubled every threeyears since I started this
approach. And they're inconcrete and construction, and
that's about as much as we wantthem to double. You know, when I
work with FinTech companies, youknow, I just wrapped up one with
one this morning, based here inEurope. You know, we want you
doubling every year in the scaleup phase. But if you're doing
(19:44):
anything hard, likeconstruction, concrete
manufacturing, I only actuallywant you doubling every three
years. And so I've got lots ofthem who are having that kind of
success. But this takesdiscipline. And what I've really
realized when I look atcompanies who do this well and
others who go through theprocess. And don't is, growth is
a commitment. And I know you'rethinking, of course, Rebecca,
(20:04):
eye roll, growth is acommitment, but here's what I
mean, you can't just commit tothe strategy. You've got to
commit to building thecapability to execute the
strategy. Now, I don't care howsmart people are in your
organization, throwing a newgrowth strategy isn't going to
get it done. Are you as aleadership team saying, Not only
am I committed to this growthstrategy, I'm committed to
(20:25):
growth, which means I'm going toslow down, to speed up, I'm
going to make sure I'm buildingthe capability of my team. I'm
going to be prepared to changethings as the situation changes.
I'm going to make some toughdecisions on people or markets
or products, because that's notwhere growth is coming from.
Growth is an absolutecommitment, and a lot of
organizations aren't prepared tomake that commitment. Frankly,
(20:46):
it's hard, right? And I'll sharesomething with you. Stephanie,
when I wrote the book, one ofthe first big feedbacks I got
from one of the editors wasRebecca, you say stuff is hard,
too much. No one likes hardstuff, and they wanted me to
rephrase all of that language tomake it feel more approachable.
And I started to do that, andthen I pushed back, and I said,
(21:08):
I can't do that, because thisstuff is really hard. But you
know what? That's cool. Why?Because when you do the hard
stuff, well, that'sdifferentiation, and that's what
we're trying to do with growthstrategies.
Stephanie Maas (21:22):
Most people, when they hear commitment or
discipline, I think the loop inthe brain is going to the
strategic plan and beingcommitted to the check and the
must dos. But what I just heardyou say, correct me, if I'm
wrong, is the commitment is tothe growth. Yes, that might mean
altering or changing, but itsounds like it's a it's a verb.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (21:45):
Growth is a verb and a noun, right? Is it is
constantly changing and moving.Go back to our strategy
hypothesis. Now, people herethat are thinking, No, Rebecca,
we're too big. We haveshareholders, we have boards. We
need to stick to the plan. Plansare hypothesis, right? This is
not advocating for chaos. You'rehaving the strategy in place at
all times, but you have thehumility to acknowledge that we
(22:07):
didn't get everything right thefirst time, and our situation is
going to change. We're going toconstantly be bringing that
change in, and that means you'vegot to build this capability for
an organization that can handleand adapt to this change. Now
people try to do this, and theydo this by cheating. What do I
mean by that? Instead of fivegrowth priorities, they have 10,
(22:27):
or they have 15, or they havefive, but each of the five have
five sub bolts, each of whichhave 15 under it, they're trying
to caveat for every singleiteration the market will give
them right? Which means you'reactually starving any of those
growth priorities of the time,treasure or talent they need to
succeed. This is why it's hardto be a high growth company.
You've got to be ruthlesslyprioritized on those few areas
(22:51):
of growth, but build thecapability of an organization
that can adapt and change as thesituation around you changes.
Stephanie Maas (22:58):
Okay, there are so many additional strings I
could pull on here to lean in onyour expertise, I mean, but in
the spirit of time, is thereanything else you want to make
sure that we address here todaytogether?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (23:11):
I think we'll just repeat hard is great,
right? So just because we'vesaid a couple times things are
hard or difficult or only a fewpeople do it, if you've got any
sort of entrepreneurial spiritthat should light something in
there and say, Hold on, like,Tell me more, right? Things that
are hard are great, because whenyou do hard things, well, that
(23:31):
is differentiation. Everythingin survivors that thrive is
doable. I've seen companies ofemployees from 10 to several
100,000 you know, from 10million revenue or even smaller
to, you know, over 30, 40billion are working on, survive,
reset, thrive, you've just gotto make the commitment. And I
think have an honestconversation with yourself and
(23:52):
your team. You know, do we wantto commit to growth? And not
everybody does. That's alsoOkay, right? But then, you know,
I'm going to annoy you,Brittany, you have a
conversation with me, because Iam absolutely passionate. Wake
up every single day on what wecan do to do this lead high
growth journeys.
Stephanie Maas (24:11):
Incredible, incredible. Thank you so much
for sharing such meaty content.Very energizing to hear you
talk. Thank you.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (24:19):
It was absolutely my pleasure to be
here. Thanks so much for havingme. Thank you so much for the
great questions.
How are you?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (00:34):
Excellent!
Stephanie Maas (00:35):
Let's start with your book, Survive, Reset and
Thrive.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (00:40):
Yeah, I'd love to thanks so much for
asking. So Survive, Reset,Thrive was written in starting
in the spring of 2020 but it wasbased on frameworks and guidance
that I've been using for for adecade before that, you know,
most of the book is things thatI've been doing with companies
who are looking to go on agrowth journey, and what
happened in that period of time,which was not dissimilar to
(01:00):
happened in Brexit in 2016 herein the UK, or in 2022 is that
entrepreneur leaders werecalling me and saying the same
thing they were saying. Why me?Why now we had this growth
pathway. Things were working,and now we've got this crisis
right. And I found myself sayingthe same things over and over
again, like, yes, we're facingkind of a change situation, so
(01:22):
we have to survive andstabilize. Then we need to
reset, because the strategy wehad before needs to update for
the changing time, and then youcan go back to being a Thrive
company, but we've got to gothrough this loop, and after
repeating the same guidance forweeks at a time, you know, I
just finally wrote it down in anemail. It was sent out on a
Saturday night. I got, you know,100% response rate on the Sunday
saying, this is the most usefulthing I've read. I'm going to
(01:44):
send it to every CEO I know. Andthat article kind of became a
workshop. The workshop became aprogram, and then about a year
and a half, two years later, itbecame the book.
Stephanie Maas (01:52):
Super cool. So one of the things you just
mentioned that I want to pull onthis string a little bit is you
mentioned it's a loop. Walk methrough that, because I think
when most folks hear this, it'smore of a checklist. Okay, we
survived that check. Now we'vereset check throughout, but you
mentioned the word loop, so walkme through that.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (02:10):
Absolutely. You know, everything in growth
is a loop, not a line. And thatsounds really simple to say, but
we really love checklists ashuman beings and send us
managers and leaders ofcompanies we love to be done
with things right when youfinally check something off, you
know, develop strategy done,communicate strategy done,
execute priority done. Andthat's not how a changing world
(02:32):
that we're facing and executingour strategies are in. It's
constantly going to be movingand evolving. So we need to move
from this checklist mindset ofhow we approach strategy and
growth into this loop mindset.And there's a lot of power in
doing that, right? So survivorsthat thrive is a loop, and what
happens, let's make it morepractical, is you can be in
Thrive mode, and everything canbe going great, and there can be
(02:54):
a shock to the system that sendsyou back to survive. These can
be external shocks. You know?You can have a surprise interest
rate a surprise election, youcould have a big macro event
like war or COVID, but you couldalso have an investor pull out
or lose a major customer, andwhen that happens, you've got to
go back into survive mode. Andwe don't want to do that. We
feel once we've gone through thesteps to thrive, we'll stay
(03:15):
there. But there's real humilityin losing the ego and saying
it's time to survive. Then theycan go back to reset again. Then
they can go back to thrive. Sowe need to embrace this loop
mentality be able to growthrough these different changes
that we're facing as we'retrying to lead our companies
through this uncertainty.
Stephanie Maas (03:31):
So let's start with, you know when, and I
really love how you said youhave to, you know, embrace the
humility to recognize, hey,we're in survival. How do you
know, other than you coming insaying, Hey, by the way, you
know, or the profits tanking,what are some key
characteristics that, you know,okay, we need to go back, or
this is where we're at.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (03:51):
I think most of us intuitively know when our
organizations are in that mode.And part of what I'm trying to
do with survive, reset thrive,is give you permission to make
that pause to say, hey, thesurvive mode is actually not
only opposite of growth, it'spart of growth, right? Going
through survive andrestabilizing is a critical part
of the growth journey, notantithesis of it. And like
giving you permission, I knowthat sounds overly simple,
(04:13):
Stephanie, but that's a key partof it, right? Is you've got to
take that pause, because most ofus know we just don't want to
admit it without kind of thereason for it. So what happens
when some of your basics arecompromised? And I call the
basics the four C's or cash costcustomers communication. You
know when something startsimpacting our cash flow? You
know when our costs are growingfaster than our revenue for a
(04:36):
reason, outside of hyper growthor doing something like a land
grab, when we've lost acustomer, or seeing customer
churn, or having issues with ourcustomers, or communication
becomes broken or spotty, orlots of friction, because kind
of go through your four C's. Andwhat I recommend organizations
do is set the baseline, not thegoals, but the baseline, like,
where's the minimum any of thesefour C's should be at any point
(04:59):
in time? And when those gettriggered, that's the pause
point to go into survive mode.And there's real power again in
knowing when you're in it andadmitting it. Now, I always feel
like I'm badly paraphrasingFight Club. You know, the first
step is kind of admitting it,but the first step of being
survive is admitting you're insurvive, because now we can
handle it right now, we can takeall those proactive steps to
(05:20):
stabilize and move again out ofsurvive, because you don't want
to be in survive longer than youhave to. But, and there's a big
but, this is a yes, but not ayes. And the longer you refuse
to admit that you need to takethat stabilize, you're actually
losing a lot of things that youneed across those four C's. So
the simplest is set thosebaseline triggers for cash cost
customers and communication, andwhen you start approaching them,
(05:42):
then it's time to take thepause.
Stephanie Maas (05:44):
So when folks take the pause in your
experience, where have you seenleaders just really handle this
well, like, what have they doneto handle this pause,
recognition of survive, etc.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (05:59):
You know, I actually had this experience.
And, you know, you can just feelproud of an entrepreneur when
they're like, wow, like, youknow, you can handle all these
steps. Well, I had a companywho, one of their major
companies, you know, spun out asubsidiary. The subsidiary went
bankrupt, so they were facingmillions of, you know, euros not
going to be paid to them at theend of the year. And when you're
(06:20):
a small to medium sizedenterprise, a couple of million
not coming in does impact you,right? When you're not a major
organization. So we're goinginto survive mode. You know, a
lot of that cash cost customerWell, actually, three of our
kind of triggers, if you will,have been broken, and they had a
Strategy Workshop scheduled toreset the growth strategy for
the next year. You know, theclassic response, which is not
the right one, by the way, is tocancel the workshop, you know,
(06:42):
all hands on deck, focus onoperational metrics. He still
got his team together, and theyrepurpose that time to go
through their survive metrics,you know, make actionable plans
on what they need to do acrossall the four C's look at their
top priority and say, Okay, whatstill goes like? What pauses,
you know, what changes? And theteam left the most energized I'd
seen them, you know, in a coupleof years when what should have
(07:03):
been, you know, one of the worsttimes they've been in the past
five years. But they use thetime to say, we know what to do
here. We've already got the timescheduled. We're going to go
through, survive, we're going tobe stabilized. And they gave
themselves a deadline, you know,by the end of key one next year.
We want to see progress on allof these. We're going to be back
to growth mode at by the end ofq2 and that's what we want
people to do. The temptation, Iwant to repeat purposely. The
(07:26):
temptation is to canceleverything related to strategy
and just tell people to be headsdown, execution mode. In survive
mode. You are still in learningcode. You want people heads up,
listening, learning, gettingthese feedbacks, emails from the
market, incorporating that in sowe can move into reset as soon
as possible.
Stephanie Maas (07:44):
Okay, so then we move into reset, and my mind
immediately goes to, you knowthat that on your phone, when
you can't get it to work, you goto the Hard Reset, but the trade
off is you lose everything. Imean, it's like worst case
scenario. You're starting allover. Walk me through what reset
looks like from your perspectiveand your counsel.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (08:03):
You know that's funny, because hard
resets do happen, but like allof us with our phones, man, you
don't want them to right? Butlook, hard resets are, are not
the normal reset. The normalreset. You turn the phone off,
right? You gotta pause and waita minute, which was probably
good anyway, because you weregetting frustrated, right? It
turns back on, boom, you'reready to go again, right? So in
a reset, you pause and with theteam, you answer some critical
(08:27):
questions that you need toanswer for growth. And those
questions are six, what's goingon and how's it going to change,
and what is success? So whereare we going to play? How are we
going to win? What could stopus? So what should we do? Go
through those six questions,reset the situation. What are
changing beliefs about thechanging time? Reset their right
to win. How are we really goingto compete in that changing
(08:48):
world? What's that mean forwhere to play choices define a
new finish line or where youwant to be at the end of the
cycle, address the challengesand then figure out your top
priorities. You know, a normalreset takes kind of a couple of
months for any sort of mid sizeorganization, a couple of weeks
for a very small one couldstretch longer for a big
organization, though I'm neverhappy about it, but that's just
what scheduling happens, kind ofin these large organizations,
(09:10):
and the majority of the time.Stephanie, that's what it is.
You go through those sixquestions, you reset, you
update, and there's power indoing that every three years,
even if you don't feel thesituation is fundamentally
changed. Now, occasionally thosehard resets do happen, and what
happens is, as you start to gothrough those questions, you
realize Everything's changed.All the fundamental assumptions
(09:33):
you had that went into yourprevious growth strategies have
now changed. Completelydifferent situation. Your right
to win is eroded, your where toplay choices all need to update
the finish lines you had are nowcompletely outdated, are no
longer relevant. And when thathappens, you do need to declare
a hard reset and to make it morepractical. We're facing these.
We're watching these in themarket right now. We're watching
(09:54):
Starbucks and Boeing and, youknow, all of these companies,
Nike, bur. Area going throughhard resets right now, and
that's what's happening. Theboard realized it wasn't
working. CEO out, new CEO in allof these challenges of being
revisited. Now this process takea couple of months to a year.
But you know what hard resetscan be? The most powerful thing
(10:14):
that happened for anorganization, we sometimes see
the most dramatic growthjourneys after hard reset
happens.
Stephanie Maas (10:20):
Okay, so we've realized things have changed.
We're refocused. Now it's timeto thrive.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (10:28):
Well, first, I appreciate your patience of
asking about survive and resetfirst, because most people want
to jump straight to the Thrive.All I really want to do is talk
about thriving. Can I just skipto that part? And I originally
joked with the publisher. Iwasn't joking, but they didn't
take me seriously. You know,let's only send people the first
eight chapters of the book. Andyou know, once they've read
those, they can apply becauseyou got to do the hard work of
(10:51):
the survive and the reset firstbefore you can get to thrive.
Because I know my entrepreneurs,right, they jumped right to
chapter 10 because that's thepart that they cared about. But
look, thrive is not a given. Ithas to be earned. And just
because you've reset thestrategy, what you also need to
reset is your executioncapability. Now, different
strategies demand differentthings from the organization, in
(11:12):
terms of our hardware, like ourprocesses and wiring, our
software, like our culture andbehaviors, the top team that we
need to lead, it our distributedleaders to really guide
execution in this sharedunderstanding. So this
transition from the reset tothrive is actually the really
difficult part, and morefriction happens there than the
transition from survive toreset, because we assume that
(11:33):
that's the more simple pathway.But resetting a strategy means
you need to reset your executioncapability and capacity as well,
and that could take some time,but you got to be super honest
about what's working and what'snot, be prepared to rebuild and
reset, then you can become oneof these Thrive organizations.
And it's a simple recipe. Thriveorganizations have three things,
(11:53):
strong balance sheets, strategicinsights, and they execute with
agility and learning, right? Youbring your strong balance sheet
through from the survive phase,your strategic insights from the
reset phase, and then youexecute with agility and
learning, because strategy is aliving, breathing document, and
we're going to learn and adjustand change as we go. And that's
a key part of being thrive isagain, I'm going to say one of
(12:15):
the things you can say to methat really makes me mad is two
things. I'll give you two thingsnot to say to me. Thing one,
just say, oh, Rebecca, we're inheads down execution mode. My
first response is, well, get outof that, right? I want you in
heads up learning mode, right?And this second is, if you ever
send me a document labeledstrategy, final, all caps, I
have this new thing now. I don'teven open it. I just reply back
(12:37):
to the email and I say, No, it'snot never final. We're going to
keep updating and adjusting aswe're going.
Stephanie Maas (12:45):
Very cool. Okay, let's talk about that for a
second, this continuouslearning. I think that that's a
huge difference maker betweenleaders that really do thrive
and ones that don't. Butoftentimes there. I think a lot
of folks fight this naturalstate of, hey, we're here. Let's
(13:06):
not rock the boat and just stayhere. And they don't come out
and say, I'm done learning, buttheir actions show that. So walk
me through this idea and conceptabout keeping learning a
critical part of this process.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (13:18):
Yeah, thank you for asking, Stephanie. It is
not only a critical part. It isthe most critical part is that
in now close to 15 years ofworking with high growth and
high performance organizations,I will say quite simply, it is
the number one differentiator.Organizations that learn faster
are organizations that growfaster. It is the ultimate
differentiator, and frankly,differentiator because it's
(13:40):
hard. A lot of us prideourselves on being learning
organizations, because we domonthly webinars, or we have
town halls, or we have sharesessions, or we have book clubs,
or we go to business schools,like all really cool things like
keep doing them, but that'sbeing a teaching organization,
not a learning organization,right? Being a learning
organization is what you alludedto, saying. We don't have all of
(14:00):
the answers yet. So here's thequestions we need to ask, using
your customers as learningpartners, you know, not just
transactional vehicles,encouraging kind of constant
experimentation and testing andlearning while executing, never
assuming that every variable andevery metric we have in the plan
is the perfect one, right?Because things are going to
change as we go. And this is adifferent culture. Now, being a
(14:23):
learning organization doesn'tmean that we're changing things
all the time, right? Learning isactually very, you know,
methodical, like engineers cando this learning velocity too.
In fact, they're quite good atit, right? You know, you can
build all of these thingsforward, but you've got to kind
of, again, break the notion thatonce something is in a plan, the
plan must be executed. I know itsounds silly, but words matter.
(14:44):
I've said, let's stop callingthem strategic plans. There's
something about the word plan,right? It just frames our brain.
Everything in this must getdone, and I want it framed as
I'm going to keep learning asI'm going this strategy is just
my best hypothesis of wheregrowth is. Going to come from
over the next three years. Likeany hypothesis, I got a lot of
it right and probably some of itwrong. So I'm going to keep
(15:05):
learning and adjusting as I go.
Stephanie Maas (15:07):
Okay, so now there are strategic hypotheses.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (15:10):
Yes, I'm just dropping the plan word again.
Frames matter, right? And assoon as our brains are framed
that everything must get done, Iget heads down, and I want
people heads up, learning andmoving as we go.
Stephanie Maas (15:21):
Okay, I just have to go back and highlight
two things that you said,because I think they're so
critical and we just don't hearthem. One is, you define the
difference between learning andteaching. I've heard it 101
times. People say, hey, we doall these things, but the way
that you turn that, nope, that'swhen you're teaching. But then
going back to ask questions. Ithink that's the second thing.
(15:42):
And so many times when we getout of a learning mode is when
we stop asking questions. And toyour point, we don't have to be
in a constant change mode, butthat's real feedback. That's how
we know are we going to get towhere we think we want to go, or
do we need to change ourstrategy? Because where we
thought we were going isn'treally where our demand is, and
(16:02):
learning is asking questions,and continuous learning is not
teaching. Talk to me about amust win battle.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (16:11):
Well, first, I'm agnostic to the language
that you pick as anorganization, right? So my only
thing is whatever term you usefor your top strategic
priorities. That term must haveintegrity, so you can't use it
for anything else. So if you'regoing to have five strategic
priorities, great. The wordpriority is now protected. It
can only refer to those fivethings, goals. Rocks again. You
(16:34):
do you right? I said not torecently at a summit, you know,
some of the President wassaying, Well, you know, the CEO
doesn't like the term must winbattles. Can we call them so and
so? And I said, Look, call themdrafts. As long as you execute.
It's like pick one word, right?That's all I care about. So I
started using the term must winbattle. I've got some colleagues
at IMD who use it as well,because we have a massive
(16:55):
language inside organizations.Now you go to any company from
10 employees to 100,000 theyhave goals, priorities, aims,
rocks, OKRs, KPIs, targets. Icould keep going and going,
right? And this isn't smallorganizations. That happens. So
put yourself as an employee. IfI've got all of these lists of
things, which in the Englishdictionary all translate to most
(17:16):
important thing, what am Iworking on every day? Right? And
you need something that cutsabout the noise and says, No,
these are the must wins. And Ilove the language of must win
battle, not nice to have battle,not business as usual battle,
but these are must wins forgrowth. And there's really
power. The absolute clarity ofthis is what we must do to get
(17:37):
to that finish line you want,the midterm you want them
clearly focused on valuecreation, and you want them to
cut across the organization. Agreat test for Do I have the
right list of must win battlesis that I just rename my
departments. By that, I mean ifyou have a marketing one, a
sales one, a product one, and apeople one, you don't have a
(18:01):
strategy. You've just renamedyour departments, right? A great
must win battle cuts across theorganization, because that's how
we truly create value. We pullfrom the best and do this
integrated approach to what ittakes to drive growth. And
that's what you're looking forin a must win again midterm, two
to three years, focus on valuecreation, market oriented cuts
(18:21):
across the organization to bringout the best of what you have.
Stephanie Maas (18:25):
Give me, if you can, don't you to violate any
confidences. But can you help uspoint to a real life example of
a company, an organization thatyou've seen go through this loop
successfully, just so we get areal life idea of what it looks
like?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (18:39):
Yeah, you know, you know, I've named, you
know, luckily, I've gotwonderful companies that I work
with, so almost all of them werewilling to be named in the book.
So, you know, Deputy 40 companyhas gone through this cycle a
couple of times now. And I lovethat example, because they're
one of the, also the very fewcompanies I work with where
their culture is actually partof their right to win and their
must win battles are focused onwhere growth is coming from,
(19:01):
right, not necessarily wheregrowth has been. So great
example there Gorilla Gluecompany, another company based
in the US, but of course,growing globally very quickly.
They're on their second cycle ofmuslin battles. So successful,
we had to reset a year earlyright from the original plan,
because they're going to thatnext stage of growth. And the
company I just mentioned,they're smaller than in Primex,
(19:22):
based in Latvia and Riga, Latviaone of my favorite places to
visit, by the way, and they'reon their third cycle, and
they've doubled every threeyears since I started this
approach. And they're inconcrete and construction, and
that's about as much as we wantthem to double. You know, when I
work with FinTech companies, youknow, I just wrapped up one with
one this morning, based here inEurope. You know, we want you
doubling every year in the scaleup phase. But if you're doing
(19:44):
anything hard, likeconstruction, concrete
manufacturing, I only actuallywant you doubling every three
years. And so I've got lots ofthem who are having that kind of
success. But this takesdiscipline. And what I've really
realized when I look atcompanies who do this well and
others who go through theprocess. And don't is, growth is
a commitment. And I know you'rethinking, of course, Rebecca,
(20:04):
eye roll, growth is acommitment, but here's what I
mean, you can't just commit tothe strategy. You've got to
commit to building thecapability to execute the
strategy. Now, I don't care howsmart people are in your
organization, throwing a newgrowth strategy isn't going to
get it done. Are you as aleadership team saying, Not only
am I committed to this growthstrategy, I'm committed to
(20:25):
growth, which means I'm going toslow down, to speed up, I'm
going to make sure I'm buildingthe capability of my team. I'm
going to be prepared to changethings as the situation changes.
I'm going to make some toughdecisions on people or markets
or products, because that's notwhere growth is coming from.
Growth is an absolutecommitment, and a lot of
organizations aren't prepared tomake that commitment. Frankly,
(20:46):
it's hard, right? And I'll sharesomething with you. Stephanie,
when I wrote the book, one ofthe first big feedbacks I got
from one of the editors wasRebecca, you say stuff is hard,
too much. No one likes hardstuff, and they wanted me to
rephrase all of that language tomake it feel more approachable.
And I started to do that, andthen I pushed back, and I said,
(21:08):
I can't do that, because thisstuff is really hard. But you
know what? That's cool. Why?Because when you do the hard
stuff, well, that'sdifferentiation, and that's what
we're trying to do with growthstrategies.
Stephanie Maas (21:22):
Most people, when they hear commitment or
discipline, I think the loop inthe brain is going to the
strategic plan and beingcommitted to the check and the
must dos. But what I just heardyou say, correct me, if I'm
wrong, is the commitment is tothe growth. Yes, that might mean
altering or changing, but itsounds like it's a it's a verb.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (21:45):
Growth is a verb and a noun, right? Is it is
constantly changing and moving.Go back to our strategy
hypothesis. Now, people herethat are thinking, No, Rebecca,
we're too big. We haveshareholders, we have boards. We
need to stick to the plan. Plansare hypothesis, right? This is
not advocating for chaos. You'rehaving the strategy in place at
all times, but you have thehumility to acknowledge that we
(22:07):
didn't get everything right thefirst time, and our situation is
going to change. We're going toconstantly be bringing that
change in, and that means you'vegot to build this capability for
an organization that can handleand adapt to this change. Now
people try to do this, and theydo this by cheating. What do I
mean by that? Instead of fivegrowth priorities, they have 10,
(22:27):
or they have 15, or they havefive, but each of the five have
five sub bolts, each of whichhave 15 under it, they're trying
to caveat for every singleiteration the market will give
them right? Which means you'reactually starving any of those
growth priorities of the time,treasure or talent they need to
succeed. This is why it's hardto be a high growth company.
You've got to be ruthlesslyprioritized on those few areas
(22:51):
of growth, but build thecapability of an organization
that can adapt and change as thesituation around you changes.
Stephanie Maas (22:58):
Okay, there are so many additional strings I
could pull on here to lean in onyour expertise, I mean, but in
the spirit of time, is thereanything else you want to make
sure that we address here todaytogether?
Dr Rebecca Homkes (23:11):
I think we'll just repeat hard is great,
right? So just because we'vesaid a couple times things are
hard or difficult or only a fewpeople do it, if you've got any
sort of entrepreneurial spiritthat should light something in
there and say, Hold on, like,Tell me more, right? Things that
are hard are great, because whenyou do hard things, well, that
(23:31):
is differentiation. Everythingin survivors that thrive is
doable. I've seen companies ofemployees from 10 to several
100,000 you know, from 10million revenue or even smaller
to, you know, over 30, 40billion are working on, survive,
reset, thrive, you've just gotto make the commitment. And I
think have an honestconversation with yourself and
(23:52):
your team. You know, do we wantto commit to growth? And not
everybody does. That's alsoOkay, right? But then, you know,
I'm going to annoy you,Brittany, you have a
conversation with me, because Iam absolutely passionate. Wake
up every single day on what wecan do to do this lead high
growth journeys.
Stephanie Maas (24:11):
Incredible, incredible. Thank you so much
for sharing such meaty content.Very energizing to hear you
talk. Thank you.
Dr Rebecca Homkes (24:19):
It was absolutely my pleasure to be
here. Thanks so much for havingme. Thank you so much for the
great questions.
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