July 8, 2025 • 25 mins
Best-selling author, professor, and leadership expert Ryan Gottfredson explains how mindsets aren't just attitudes, distinguishes the doing side vs. the being side of ourselves, and talks about gauging your "window of tolerance", the 3 levels of adult development, reaction vs. response, and healing to grow.
And be sure to check out Ryan's original appearance in Episode 317 of The Action Catalyst.
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Episode Transcript
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Host (00:00):
We're here today once again, actually, with best
(00:15):
selling author, professor andleadership expert Ryan
Gottfredson, Ryan, good to see you.
Ryan Gottfredson (00:42):
Yeah, great to be back on. I was looking at the
notes and my notes, and I thinkthe last time I was on was over
five years ago.
Host (00:49):
Yes. So episode 317 back in January of 2020. Is what we
last had you on. And boy, didthings change abruptly right
after that.
Ryan Gottfredson (00:59):
Yeah. So that was January, and fast forward a
couple months, and I was with mypublisher in Nashville for my
first book, success mindsets inMarch, and we're there second
week of March. I think it waslike a Wednesday, Thursday,
Friday. We're doing this redcarpet event. I get an email,
you know, essentially, schoolsare shutting down, and I'm in
(01:21):
Nashville, I'm thinking, oh mygoodness, what is happening? Am
I even going to get a flightback home? And that was the
weekend that, of course, theworld essentially shut down. And
then fast forward, two monthslater, is when my book actually
hit the shelves. And so it was,in some ways, I think there were
some good things with that, withthe book coming out of that time
(01:42):
and other things, it just madethings really difficult. So I
think in some ways it was goodbecause a lot of people were
maybe spending a little bit moretime reading. But on the other
hand, is I do a lot ofconsulting work with
organizations, and thatcompletely shut down. So I think
there were some good things andthat helped it hit the Wall
Street Journal and USA Todaybestseller list. But then my
(02:03):
business slowed down for alittle bit, like many others
did. But that's okay, it pickedback up. And you know, we are
where we are now, which is adifferent type of crazy.
Host (02:12):
Just a little refresher for our audience, we talk a lot
on the Action Catalyst, aboutgrowth mindset, fixed mindset,
about mindset general for you,there's actually four. It's not
growth and fixed. Do you mindjust kind of walking our
audience through that just aspart of our table setting for
the conversation today?
Ryan Gottfredson (02:28):
One of the things that I've learned is
mindsets is a term that isthrown out, I feel like rather
loosely, right? A lot of peopletalk about maybe leader mindset
or entrepreneurial mindset, andoftentimes, when people talk
about mindsets, they talk aboutmindsets as our attitude towards
something. But actually at ascientific level, even a
(02:51):
neuroscientific level, ourmindsets are much deeper than
our attitude towards something.They're actually the mental
lenses that we wear that shapehow we view the world around us.
And so what that means is ourmindsets are the part of
ourselves that automaticallyinterprets information in
certain ways. So for example,this is what explains why some
(03:13):
people can see failure assomething to avoid, but other
people see failure as anopportunity to learn and grow
and in our mindsets, they reallyare the most foundational part
of who we are. And for most ofus, we're not conscious of our
mindsets, nor do we know thequality of our mindsets. So the
(03:34):
quality of our mindsets existalong along a continuum from
being more wired for selfprotection to be more wired for
value creation and whether wehave a self protective mindset
or a value creating mindset,both feel right to us, but one
(03:54):
helps us stay safe in the shortterm, but holds us back in the
long term. That's the selfprotective mindset and the value
creating mindsets allow us tostep into short term discomfort
for long term value creation. SoI coach my son's basketball
team. My son is 10 years old.That means that he and his
teammates are not very good, soit's my job as a coach to help
(04:17):
them to develop. And so one ofthe things that I'm trying to
help them develop at this ageis, is they're all right handed,
and I want to help them learnhow to shoot a layup with their
left hand when they're on theleft side of the hoop. So this
is a pretty important skill fora basketball player, and so I'll
instruct them. When we do, wecall them lay up lines. They
land up on the left side, andthey take turns to shoot a
(04:39):
layup. And I'll ask them, all,right, try to shoot this with
your left hand. And I get threedifferent responses. The first
response that I get is I getsome players that don't even try
to shoot with their left hand.Well, why wouldn't they try to
shoot with their left hand?Well, it feels uncomfortable.
They're going to look awkward,and they're probably going to
miss their shot. You. So there'ssome justifiable reasons for
(05:02):
them to not try that. The secondresponse that I get is I get
some players that are willing totry and practice, but they're
not willing to try in games.Well, why aren't we willing to
try in games? Well, it's becausenow my my parents are recording
me for the rest of posterity tosee, right? And of course, I
don't want to let my team down.I want to win the game. There's
(05:22):
a lot more pressure in thatmoment. So that's the second
response that I get. But thenthe third response that again, I
only have a couple of playersthat are willing to do this, but
they're willing to try inpractice and in the games. Well,
why are they willing to do this?Well, they're they've developed
this capacity to be able to feeluncomfortable, look
(05:43):
uncomfortable, and miss theshot, which may even mean
letting their team down in thatmoment or even in that game. But
for what benefit, it's becausethey will actually improve their
development of that skill sothat they could be a greater
value creator for themselves andfor their future teams down the
road. So there's some responsesthat are more self protective in
(06:06):
that moment, and others that aremore value creating meaning.
They're willing to step intodiscomfort in that moment to
become a better value creatorover the long term. Are these
responses by my players? Arethey intentional, thought out
responses, or instinctual kneejerk reactions, and that's the
role that our mindsets play.Right? It's our it's my players
(06:28):
mindsets that are dictating whenI invite them, do they move
towards self protection, or dothey move towards value
creation? And that's themindsets. And if, then, if I
also ask these players, do youhave good mindsets? I think that
all of them say yes, becausethey could justify it. Well, one
the one that's more selfprotective, well, it helps me
(06:50):
feel more safe and morecomfortable in that moment, and
the one that has the more valuecreating mindset is, oh yeah,
I've got a better mindset,because it's gonna help me
become a better basketballplayer for the future, right? So
that's the inherent challengethat we as people face, is we
generally think that ourmindsets are good, but we
generally don't know the qualityof our mindsets. And so the
(07:13):
reason why I bring this up isit's really helpful to have a
mindset framework to help us tostart to investigate the true
quality of our mindsets, andthat's what I put together. Is
what you said, is these fourdifferent sets of mindsets.
Host (07:27):
If they're something that's so foundational to us and
kind of ingrained and shape theway we approach and view
everything else, how can weinfluence or adjust our mindset?
Ryan Gottfredson (07:38):
Yeah, great question, and it all starts with
awareness, and that's where theframework is so powerful,
because if I don't have labelsfor mindsets, if I don't have
descriptions for mindsets, thenI can never investigate them.
They're going to continue toreside below the level of my
consciousness. But if I couldput labels on it and
(07:58):
descriptions now I could startto develop greater level of
consciousness about my mindsets,and that's been part of my
personal journey. Is when Ifirst learned about these
different sets of mindsets, Iquickly learned that I had self
protective mindsets, which isnormal. Most of us have self
protective mindsets, and I justdidn't know what better mindsets
(08:21):
to have. So the first thing Ineeded to do is to deepen my
awareness, and then once Ideepen my awareness, then I
could come up with plans andstrategies and interventions to
be able to elevate my mindset.
Host (08:33):
Shifting from mindset to growth. The science really
points to there being two maintypes of growth, those
incremental, transformational Ithink people think they know
what each of those means. Butcould you define those for us?
Ryan Gottfredson (08:47):
Yeah, for sure. And it's really helpful
for us to understand thatthere's two different sides of
ourselves. So I'm going to giveyou some characters that you
probably recognize who they are,and I want you to tell me what
you think they have in common?Michael Jackson, Tiger Woods,
Ellen DeGeneres, uh, BillClinton, Gordon, Ramsay Shia,
(09:09):
LaBeouf. What do they have incommon? They got multiple things
in common. I think so. I thinkmost simply, they're all famous
and well known. They have allbeen incredibly successful
within their within theirindustry. I mean that they may
be at the peak. I mean, we'vegot the king of pop in there for
goodness sakes, right? So, soall incredibly successful
people. But the other thing thatthey have in common is they all
(09:32):
have some controversy. And sothe reason why I've kind of
cherry picked these examples isto demonstrate this idea that we
have two different sides ofourselves. One side of ourselves
is what I call our doing side.It's our talent, our knowledge,
our skills and our abilities.And all of these individuals are
incredibly talented,knowledgeable and skillful
individuals, and it's theirtalent, knowledge and skills
(09:54):
that has allowed them to reachthe success that they've
experienced, or at least theirpopularity. Priority. But then
their controversy doesn't reallyhave anything to do with their
talent, knowledge, skills andabilities. Their controversy has
to do with a different side ofthemselves, and that's what I
call our being side. And ourbeing side is the quality of our
(10:15):
character, our mindsets, ourpsyche, the quality of our
emotional regulation abilities.I call it as a whole our
internal operating system, howour bodies are wired to operate.
So each of these individualswere incredibly talented,
knowledgeable and skillful, butthey lack some emotional
(10:35):
regulation abilities that causedthem to misstep at different
points of time in their life andand so the reason why I bring
this up is coming back to yourquestion is there's a difference
between incremental growth andtransformational growth. And
what I've learned is that whenwe improve along our doing side,
it is helpful, but I find thatit is only incrementally
(10:59):
helpful, and if we really wantto transformationally grow and
improve, we've got to focus onour being side. We've got to
we've actually got to focus onour internal operating system,
our mindsets, our emotionalregulation abilities, and when
we could elevate along our beingside, we transformationally
become better people and betterleaders. And what's interesting
(11:23):
about this is that when we thinkabout development efforts in
general, is almost alldevelopment efforts focus on our
doing side. Think about oureducation systems, our athletic
programs and our organizationaldevelopment efforts, they almost
all focus on gaining knowledgeand skills. Yet it's only
incrementally helpful. And so mynew book, becoming better is all
(11:45):
about helping people learn thatthey have a being side, learn
what it is, help them connectwith it and evaluate their
altitude along their being side.And then how do they elevate
along their being side, so thatthey can transformationally
become better
Host (12:00):
When it comes to the doing side, most of the time, we know
what we don't know, right? Weknow what we need to improve on,
what we need to do to getbetter. How do we assess our
being side so we know where togo from there?
Ryan Gottfredson (12:16):
Yeah, and what's interesting, and there's
a variety of different ways thatwe can do this, right? So I'm
going to step into a fewdifferent ways. One way is to
look at our mindsets. Ourmindsets are intimately
connected to this, to our beingside, because they're about how
our bodies are wired to operatemore self protective or more
(12:37):
value creating. So if you'relistening to this, I've
developed a mindset assessmenton my website called the
personal mindset assessment.It's free. Anybody could take
it, and it will help them toevaluate the quality of their
mindset. So that's a helpfultool, but not everybody has
access to that. I mean, it'sfree. Now you've heard about it,
(12:59):
but not everybody knows aboutit. But beyond that, another way
to kind of gage This is windowof tolerance. The window of
tolerance was popularized by apsychologist called his name is
Daniel Siegel. He's written agreat book called Mindsight, and
he dives into this conceptthere, as well as in other
places. But window of toleranceis effectively, how easily
(13:22):
triggered are we to difference,to stress, pressure, complexity,
uncertainty, etc. So we have awindow that when, when the
stress is low in our lives. It'sa it's a window in which our
body's nervous system isregulated. And so when you know
when challenges come our way,when we're in this regulated
state, we can navigate thosechallenges rather effectively.
(13:45):
We are in cognitive andemotional control, but the more
stress that we experience, or ifyou're anything like me, if you
get hangry, then you kind ofsense that you're moving closer
to the edge of your window oftolerance, where you're losing
cognitive and emotional control.And there's even times where we
get we'll call it triggered, andwe actually go outside of our
(14:09):
window of tolerance, and we'velost almost all cognitive and
emotional control. And so whenwe when we move closer to the
edge of our window of tolerance,or even beyond it, we become
more reactive, as opposed tointentionally responsive. So one
of the things that we need torecognize is all of us, the
width of our window of tolerancediffers just as we differ in
(14:32):
height or weight. And so thewider our window of tolerance,
our greater capacity to stay incognitive and emotional control
across difficult situations. Andour window tolerance is also
something that we could widen.We can expand. In fact, as we
elevate along our being side,that's what happens. So people
with a wider window of toleranceare at a higher altitude along
(14:56):
their being side. People with anarrower window of tolerance
more reactive individuals, forexample, then they're going to
be low. That's a. Find thatthey're lower on their being
side. So that's another, Ithink, a helpful way to kind of
gage our altitude along thatbeing side. The field of
developmental psychology is thefield that has actually done the
(15:18):
most research along our beingside. Now, developmental
psychology has historicallyfocused on child development. We
know that children go throughdifferent developmental stages.
They go from infancy toadulthood, but a narrow kind of
area of focus for developmentalpsychologists is adult
development, and what they'vefound is that just as children
(15:41):
go through different developmentstages, adults can go through
different adult developmentstages. In fact, what they found
is that there's three primaryadult development stages or
levels. And what's interestingabout this is that while adults
can develop what they've foundis that most adults don't
develop in adulthood along theirbeing side. So if there's three
(16:04):
levels along our being side,let's just call them for now,
level one, level two, level 360.4% of adults operate in level
one and never get to level 230,5% get to level two, and only 1%
gets to level three. So there'snot many that operate there. And
so one of the things that I'velearned as I've kind of
understand this, is the realityis, is that most of us, and most
(16:28):
of the people that we know,operate at this base level,
which is a rather selfprotective way to operate,
right? So for example, if I wereto say to you, how do most
people respond to constructivecriticism? Criticism, you would
say they get defensive, right?And that's a self protective
strategy in that moment, butit's one that probably is
(16:49):
something that holds them backfrom learning, growing and
developing. So that's a selfprotective reaction, as opposed
to a value creating response. Somost of us and most of the
people we associate with, arepeople that operate at this
lower being side level. So thiskind of becomes the norm, but it
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's very cognitively and
(17:12):
emotionally sophisticated. Andso when we understand this
framework, that's another way togage it. And in fact, I've got
another free assessment on mywebsite that will allow you to
kind of gage what level you tendto operate at. It's called a
vertical development assessment.
Host (17:30):
Very literally, once we've assessed that, once we know
where we're at, what is thistrick to leveling up?
Ryan Gottfredson (17:38):
Yeah, at its core, what we've got to
recognize is, is our being sideis connected to our internal
operating system, which reallyis our nervous system. So we've
got to engage in efforts tobetter regulate and upgrade our
body's nervous system. And Ithink that there's three
different levels that we couldthink about doing work on our
(18:01):
nervous system. So I'm going tosay that there's surface level
approaches, there's deeper levelapproaches, and there's deepest
level approaches. So at thesurface level are things that I
think are fairly common andthey're being increasingly
promoted. These are things likemeditation, uh, journaling,
gratitude journaling, engagingin self talk, doing like we see,
(18:24):
cold plunges. These are allactually activities that help us
better regulate our body'snervous system. And so I think
that there's surface level inthat they holistically help us
better regulate ourselves to getinto the deeper level. I think
that's where mindsets reside,if, because, again, most people
aren't conscious of ourmindsets, and so if we could
(18:46):
help them to become conscious ofour mindsets, we are getting
directly at one of the primaryjobs of our internal operating
system, which is how our bodymakes meaning of our world. And
if we can awaken to how we makemeaning of our world, or how
we're prone to make meaning ofour world, then we could do the
work of adjusting and improvinghow we make meaning of our
(19:08):
world. So for me, and that'swhere this is the space that I
primarily play, in terms of thecoaching and the consulting that
I do, is I help do some of thisdeeper level ver it's called
vertical development work, asopposed to horizontal
development work. So that's adeeper the deeper level
strategy. At the deepest level,this is where we find things
(19:30):
like therapy, like psychologicaltherapy, trauma healing therapy,
and even if people have neurodivergence, then we like ADHD,
for example, is something thatimpacts our being side that
there's what's called neurofeedback therapy, and that could
help us, help us rewire ourbrain. And then one of the
(19:52):
things that I've kind of got myear to the ground on is some of
the latest research coming outwith psychedelic assisted
therapy. So all of the initialresearch that seems to be coming
out now is suggesting that it'sone of the most effective ways
of rewiring our body's nervoussystem. And so those are I don't
(20:12):
play at that level, because Idon't have the training for
either any of those things, butI've participated, for example,
in trauma healing therapy that'sbeen a part of my own personal
development journey. And I wouldsay, I'm currently not engaging
with my therapist, but I startedthat process that's about four
years ago, and I spent two yearsworking with a trauma therapist
(20:36):
to heal from some stuff in mypast, right? So, and I would say
five years ago, when I was onthe podcast, if you would have
asked me if I had trauma in mypast, I would have said no, I
had great parents. They stayedmarried, they went to every
basketball game I ever played.But what I've come to realize is
that while my parents werealways there for me physically,
(20:57):
they were rarely there for meemotionally. So I've got some
emotional neglect in mybackground, and I didn't know
that five years ago, and I'vecome to awaken to that and
engage with the trauma therapistto help me kind of heal my body
from that experience. I guessone of the things that I've
(21:17):
learned is how we are wired tosurvive our childhood is not the
wiring that we need to besuccessful as adults and as
leaders. And that's ultimatelywhat we're talking about, is,
how do we rewire ourselves? Andwhat I've learned just engaging
in this deepest level strategyof engaging with a trauma
therapist is doing that healingwork has done. I have, I have
(21:40):
grown and developed more as aperson in that two years than I
had the prior 16 years of myadult life. And I think at the
end of the day, that's why doingyou know, coming on this
podcast, sharing these ideas, ismeaningful to me, because at the
end of the day, if we want toelevate along our being side at
a foundational level, it's abouthealing our minds, our bodies
(22:04):
and our hearts. And if we wantto become transformationally
better, that's what it requires.It requires healing. And I've
just come to learn that most ofus need some healing.
Host (22:16):
The first time you joined the program, we discussed your
book, which was just about torelease, Success Mindsets. We've
touched today on a lot of thematerial that's in Becoming
Better your latest book, but inthe meantime, you've also put
out another great book, TheElevated Leader. We don't want
to overlook that.
Ryan Gottfredson (22:32):
For sure. And thank you for bringing it up.
And in fact, we have talkedabout it. So when I talked about
those three adult developmentlevels, level one, level two,
level three, that's what theelevated leader is all about,
getting to know those threelevels and allowing us to use
that framework to introspectabout the at the time, I wasn't
calling it this, but the I wascalling it the quality of our
(22:53):
internal operating system. Butnow the terminology we've used
here is that plus elevatingalong our being side.
Host (22:59):
You mentioned a number of assessments available on your
website today that people can goand start taking action on what
they've heard about today, laythat website on us one more time
and talk about what some ofthose assessments are and any
other free tools.
Ryan Gottfredson (23:16):
For sure. So there's the two on my website.
RyanGottfredson.com, there's afree personal mindset
assessment, a free verticaldevelopment assessment, again,
both of those are help us toawaken to the quality along our
being side. And then, if youwanted to do deeper work for
yourself, you know, I help, I doengage in coaching to help
(23:36):
people to upgrade themselves. Orwhen I work with organizations,
what I'll generally do is I'llhave groups or teams or even the
entire organization, take theseassessments, and then I could
aggregate those results up to acollective level, and we could
look at the collective mindsetsof an organization, of a group
of leaders or of a team. So ifanybody wants to do some of that
(23:59):
deeper work beyond just taking acouple of assessments, would
love to have some conversationswith folks. What I've
experienced, because I've workedwith hundreds of organizations
and 1000s of leaders, is forevery group that I've worked
with, this is an incredibly eyeopening experience and which
allows for transformation tooccur. And I just feel blessed
(24:21):
to kind of be playing in a, in aspot, and in a in a place where
I could help people to awaken tothe deeper sense of themselves,
so that they can elevatethemselves at this foundational level.
Host (24:32):
Well, Ryan, thank you so much for taking some time to
join us in the program today andfor helping us become better.
Ryan Gottfredson (24:38):
Thanks for having me, and thanks for
creating this platform. I knowhaving a podcast is not an easy
thing to do, and it's actually avery generous thing to do, so
(25:00):
appreciate your willingness todo that so that people like me
can share our ideas.
We're here today once again, actually, with best
(00:15):
selling author, professor andleadership expert Ryan
Gottfredson, Ryan, good to see you.
Ryan Gottfredson (00:42):
Yeah, great to be back on. I was looking at the
notes and my notes, and I thinkthe last time I was on was over
five years ago.
Host (00:49):
Yes. So episode 317 back in January of 2020. Is what we
last had you on. And boy, didthings change abruptly right
after that.
Ryan Gottfredson (00:59):
Yeah. So that was January, and fast forward a
couple months, and I was with mypublisher in Nashville for my
first book, success mindsets inMarch, and we're there second
week of March. I think it waslike a Wednesday, Thursday,
Friday. We're doing this redcarpet event. I get an email,
you know, essentially, schoolsare shutting down, and I'm in
(01:21):
Nashville, I'm thinking, oh mygoodness, what is happening? Am
I even going to get a flightback home? And that was the
weekend that, of course, theworld essentially shut down. And
then fast forward, two monthslater, is when my book actually
hit the shelves. And so it was,in some ways, I think there were
some good things with that, withthe book coming out of that time
(01:42):
and other things, it just madethings really difficult. So I
think in some ways it was goodbecause a lot of people were
maybe spending a little bit moretime reading. But on the other
hand, is I do a lot ofconsulting work with
organizations, and thatcompletely shut down. So I think
there were some good things andthat helped it hit the Wall
Street Journal and USA Todaybestseller list. But then my
(02:03):
business slowed down for alittle bit, like many others
did. But that's okay, it pickedback up. And you know, we are
where we are now, which is adifferent type of crazy.
Host (02:12):
Just a little refresher for our audience, we talk a lot
on the Action Catalyst, aboutgrowth mindset, fixed mindset,
about mindset general for you,there's actually four. It's not
growth and fixed. Do you mindjust kind of walking our
audience through that just aspart of our table setting for
the conversation today?
Ryan Gottfredson (02:28):
One of the things that I've learned is
mindsets is a term that isthrown out, I feel like rather
loosely, right? A lot of peopletalk about maybe leader mindset
or entrepreneurial mindset, andoftentimes, when people talk
about mindsets, they talk aboutmindsets as our attitude towards
something. But actually at ascientific level, even a
(02:51):
neuroscientific level, ourmindsets are much deeper than
our attitude towards something.They're actually the mental
lenses that we wear that shapehow we view the world around us.
And so what that means is ourmindsets are the part of
ourselves that automaticallyinterprets information in
certain ways. So for example,this is what explains why some
(03:13):
people can see failure assomething to avoid, but other
people see failure as anopportunity to learn and grow
and in our mindsets, they reallyare the most foundational part
of who we are. And for most ofus, we're not conscious of our
mindsets, nor do we know thequality of our mindsets. So the
(03:34):
quality of our mindsets existalong along a continuum from
being more wired for selfprotection to be more wired for
value creation and whether wehave a self protective mindset
or a value creating mindset,both feel right to us, but one
(03:54):
helps us stay safe in the shortterm, but holds us back in the
long term. That's the selfprotective mindset and the value
creating mindsets allow us tostep into short term discomfort
for long term value creation. SoI coach my son's basketball
team. My son is 10 years old.That means that he and his
teammates are not very good, soit's my job as a coach to help
(04:17):
them to develop. And so one ofthe things that I'm trying to
help them develop at this ageis, is they're all right handed,
and I want to help them learnhow to shoot a layup with their
left hand when they're on theleft side of the hoop. So this
is a pretty important skill fora basketball player, and so I'll
instruct them. When we do, wecall them lay up lines. They
land up on the left side, andthey take turns to shoot a
(04:39):
layup. And I'll ask them, all,right, try to shoot this with
your left hand. And I get threedifferent responses. The first
response that I get is I getsome players that don't even try
to shoot with their left hand.Well, why wouldn't they try to
shoot with their left hand?Well, it feels uncomfortable.
They're going to look awkward,and they're probably going to
miss their shot. You. So there'ssome justifiable reasons for
(05:02):
them to not try that. The secondresponse that I get is I get
some players that are willing totry and practice, but they're
not willing to try in games.Well, why aren't we willing to
try in games? Well, it's becausenow my my parents are recording
me for the rest of posterity tosee, right? And of course, I
don't want to let my team down.I want to win the game. There's
(05:22):
a lot more pressure in thatmoment. So that's the second
response that I get. But thenthe third response that again, I
only have a couple of playersthat are willing to do this, but
they're willing to try inpractice and in the games. Well,
why are they willing to do this?Well, they're they've developed
this capacity to be able to feeluncomfortable, look
(05:43):
uncomfortable, and miss theshot, which may even mean
letting their team down in thatmoment or even in that game. But
for what benefit, it's becausethey will actually improve their
development of that skill sothat they could be a greater
value creator for themselves andfor their future teams down the
road. So there's some responsesthat are more self protective in
(06:06):
that moment, and others that aremore value creating meaning.
They're willing to step intodiscomfort in that moment to
become a better value creatorover the long term. Are these
responses by my players? Arethey intentional, thought out
responses, or instinctual kneejerk reactions, and that's the
role that our mindsets play.Right? It's our it's my players
(06:28):
mindsets that are dictating whenI invite them, do they move
towards self protection, or dothey move towards value
creation? And that's themindsets. And if, then, if I
also ask these players, do youhave good mindsets? I think that
all of them say yes, becausethey could justify it. Well, one
the one that's more selfprotective, well, it helps me
(06:50):
feel more safe and morecomfortable in that moment, and
the one that has the more valuecreating mindset is, oh yeah,
I've got a better mindset,because it's gonna help me
become a better basketballplayer for the future, right? So
that's the inherent challengethat we as people face, is we
generally think that ourmindsets are good, but we
generally don't know the qualityof our mindsets. And so the
(07:13):
reason why I bring this up isit's really helpful to have a
mindset framework to help us tostart to investigate the true
quality of our mindsets, andthat's what I put together. Is
what you said, is these fourdifferent sets of mindsets.
Host (07:27):
If they're something that's so foundational to us and
kind of ingrained and shape theway we approach and view
everything else, how can weinfluence or adjust our mindset?
Ryan Gottfredson (07:38):
Yeah, great question, and it all starts with
awareness, and that's where theframework is so powerful,
because if I don't have labelsfor mindsets, if I don't have
descriptions for mindsets, thenI can never investigate them.
They're going to continue toreside below the level of my
consciousness. But if I couldput labels on it and
(07:58):
descriptions now I could startto develop greater level of
consciousness about my mindsets,and that's been part of my
personal journey. Is when Ifirst learned about these
different sets of mindsets, Iquickly learned that I had self
protective mindsets, which isnormal. Most of us have self
protective mindsets, and I justdidn't know what better mindsets
(08:21):
to have. So the first thing Ineeded to do is to deepen my
awareness, and then once Ideepen my awareness, then I
could come up with plans andstrategies and interventions to
be able to elevate my mindset.
Host (08:33):
Shifting from mindset to growth. The science really
points to there being two maintypes of growth, those
incremental, transformational Ithink people think they know
what each of those means. Butcould you define those for us?
Ryan Gottfredson (08:47):
Yeah, for sure. And it's really helpful
for us to understand thatthere's two different sides of
ourselves. So I'm going to giveyou some characters that you
probably recognize who they are,and I want you to tell me what
you think they have in common?Michael Jackson, Tiger Woods,
Ellen DeGeneres, uh, BillClinton, Gordon, Ramsay Shia,
(09:09):
LaBeouf. What do they have incommon? They got multiple things
in common. I think so. I thinkmost simply, they're all famous
and well known. They have allbeen incredibly successful
within their within theirindustry. I mean that they may
be at the peak. I mean, we'vegot the king of pop in there for
goodness sakes, right? So, soall incredibly successful
people. But the other thing thatthey have in common is they all
(09:32):
have some controversy. And sothe reason why I've kind of
cherry picked these examples isto demonstrate this idea that we
have two different sides ofourselves. One side of ourselves
is what I call our doing side.It's our talent, our knowledge,
our skills and our abilities.And all of these individuals are
incredibly talented,knowledgeable and skillful
individuals, and it's theirtalent, knowledge and skills
(09:54):
that has allowed them to reachthe success that they've
experienced, or at least theirpopularity. Priority. But then
their controversy doesn't reallyhave anything to do with their
talent, knowledge, skills andabilities. Their controversy has
to do with a different side ofthemselves, and that's what I
call our being side. And ourbeing side is the quality of our
(10:15):
character, our mindsets, ourpsyche, the quality of our
emotional regulation abilities.I call it as a whole our
internal operating system, howour bodies are wired to operate.
So each of these individualswere incredibly talented,
knowledgeable and skillful, butthey lack some emotional
(10:35):
regulation abilities that causedthem to misstep at different
points of time in their life andand so the reason why I bring
this up is coming back to yourquestion is there's a difference
between incremental growth andtransformational growth. And
what I've learned is that whenwe improve along our doing side,
it is helpful, but I find thatit is only incrementally
(10:59):
helpful, and if we really wantto transformationally grow and
improve, we've got to focus onour being side. We've got to
we've actually got to focus onour internal operating system,
our mindsets, our emotionalregulation abilities, and when
we could elevate along our beingside, we transformationally
become better people and betterleaders. And what's interesting
(11:23):
about this is that when we thinkabout development efforts in
general, is almost alldevelopment efforts focus on our
doing side. Think about oureducation systems, our athletic
programs and our organizationaldevelopment efforts, they almost
all focus on gaining knowledgeand skills. Yet it's only
incrementally helpful. And so mynew book, becoming better is all
(11:45):
about helping people learn thatthey have a being side, learn
what it is, help them connectwith it and evaluate their
altitude along their being side.And then how do they elevate
along their being side, so thatthey can transformationally
become better
Host (12:00):
When it comes to the doing side, most of the time, we know
what we don't know, right? Weknow what we need to improve on,
what we need to do to getbetter. How do we assess our
being side so we know where togo from there?
Ryan Gottfredson (12:16):
Yeah, and what's interesting, and there's
a variety of different ways thatwe can do this, right? So I'm
going to step into a fewdifferent ways. One way is to
look at our mindsets. Ourmindsets are intimately
connected to this, to our beingside, because they're about how
our bodies are wired to operatemore self protective or more
(12:37):
value creating. So if you'relistening to this, I've
developed a mindset assessmenton my website called the
personal mindset assessment.It's free. Anybody could take
it, and it will help them toevaluate the quality of their
mindset. So that's a helpfultool, but not everybody has
access to that. I mean, it'sfree. Now you've heard about it,
(12:59):
but not everybody knows aboutit. But beyond that, another way
to kind of gage This is windowof tolerance. The window of
tolerance was popularized by apsychologist called his name is
Daniel Siegel. He's written agreat book called Mindsight, and
he dives into this conceptthere, as well as in other
places. But window of toleranceis effectively, how easily
(13:22):
triggered are we to difference,to stress, pressure, complexity,
uncertainty, etc. So we have awindow that when, when the
stress is low in our lives. It'sa it's a window in which our
body's nervous system isregulated. And so when you know
when challenges come our way,when we're in this regulated
state, we can navigate thosechallenges rather effectively.
(13:45):
We are in cognitive andemotional control, but the more
stress that we experience, or ifyou're anything like me, if you
get hangry, then you kind ofsense that you're moving closer
to the edge of your window oftolerance, where you're losing
cognitive and emotional control.And there's even times where we
get we'll call it triggered, andwe actually go outside of our
(14:09):
window of tolerance, and we'velost almost all cognitive and
emotional control. And so whenwe when we move closer to the
edge of our window of tolerance,or even beyond it, we become
more reactive, as opposed tointentionally responsive. So one
of the things that we need torecognize is all of us, the
width of our window of tolerancediffers just as we differ in
(14:32):
height or weight. And so thewider our window of tolerance,
our greater capacity to stay incognitive and emotional control
across difficult situations. Andour window tolerance is also
something that we could widen.We can expand. In fact, as we
elevate along our being side,that's what happens. So people
with a wider window of toleranceare at a higher altitude along
(14:56):
their being side. People with anarrower window of tolerance
more reactive individuals, forexample, then they're going to
be low. That's a. Find thatthey're lower on their being
side. So that's another, Ithink, a helpful way to kind of
gage our altitude along thatbeing side. The field of
developmental psychology is thefield that has actually done the
(15:18):
most research along our beingside. Now, developmental
psychology has historicallyfocused on child development. We
know that children go throughdifferent developmental stages.
They go from infancy toadulthood, but a narrow kind of
area of focus for developmentalpsychologists is adult
development, and what they'vefound is that just as children
(15:41):
go through different developmentstages, adults can go through
different adult developmentstages. In fact, what they found
is that there's three primaryadult development stages or
levels. And what's interestingabout this is that while adults
can develop what they've foundis that most adults don't
develop in adulthood along theirbeing side. So if there's three
(16:04):
levels along our being side,let's just call them for now,
level one, level two, level 360.4% of adults operate in level
one and never get to level 230,5% get to level two, and only 1%
gets to level three. So there'snot many that operate there. And
so one of the things that I'velearned as I've kind of
understand this, is the realityis, is that most of us, and most
(16:28):
of the people that we know,operate at this base level,
which is a rather selfprotective way to operate,
right? So for example, if I wereto say to you, how do most
people respond to constructivecriticism? Criticism, you would
say they get defensive, right?And that's a self protective
strategy in that moment, butit's one that probably is
(16:49):
something that holds them backfrom learning, growing and
developing. So that's a selfprotective reaction, as opposed
to a value creating response. Somost of us and most of the
people we associate with, arepeople that operate at this
lower being side level. So thiskind of becomes the norm, but it
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's very cognitively and
(17:12):
emotionally sophisticated. Andso when we understand this
framework, that's another way togage it. And in fact, I've got
another free assessment on mywebsite that will allow you to
kind of gage what level you tendto operate at. It's called a
vertical development assessment.
Host (17:30):
Very literally, once we've assessed that, once we know
where we're at, what is thistrick to leveling up?
Ryan Gottfredson (17:38):
Yeah, at its core, what we've got to
recognize is, is our being sideis connected to our internal
operating system, which reallyis our nervous system. So we've
got to engage in efforts tobetter regulate and upgrade our
body's nervous system. And Ithink that there's three
different levels that we couldthink about doing work on our
(18:01):
nervous system. So I'm going tosay that there's surface level
approaches, there's deeper levelapproaches, and there's deepest
level approaches. So at thesurface level are things that I
think are fairly common andthey're being increasingly
promoted. These are things likemeditation, uh, journaling,
gratitude journaling, engagingin self talk, doing like we see,
(18:24):
cold plunges. These are allactually activities that help us
better regulate our body'snervous system. And so I think
that there's surface level inthat they holistically help us
better regulate ourselves to getinto the deeper level. I think
that's where mindsets reside,if, because, again, most people
aren't conscious of ourmindsets, and so if we could
(18:46):
help them to become conscious ofour mindsets, we are getting
directly at one of the primaryjobs of our internal operating
system, which is how our bodymakes meaning of our world. And
if we can awaken to how we makemeaning of our world, or how
we're prone to make meaning ofour world, then we could do the
work of adjusting and improvinghow we make meaning of our
(19:08):
world. So for me, and that'swhere this is the space that I
primarily play, in terms of thecoaching and the consulting that
I do, is I help do some of thisdeeper level ver it's called
vertical development work, asopposed to horizontal
development work. So that's adeeper the deeper level
strategy. At the deepest level,this is where we find things
(19:30):
like therapy, like psychologicaltherapy, trauma healing therapy,
and even if people have neurodivergence, then we like ADHD,
for example, is something thatimpacts our being side that
there's what's called neurofeedback therapy, and that could
help us, help us rewire ourbrain. And then one of the
(19:52):
things that I've kind of got myear to the ground on is some of
the latest research coming outwith psychedelic assisted
therapy. So all of the initialresearch that seems to be coming
out now is suggesting that it'sone of the most effective ways
of rewiring our body's nervoussystem. And so those are I don't
(20:12):
play at that level, because Idon't have the training for
either any of those things, butI've participated, for example,
in trauma healing therapy that'sbeen a part of my own personal
development journey. And I wouldsay, I'm currently not engaging
with my therapist, but I startedthat process that's about four
years ago, and I spent two yearsworking with a trauma therapist
(20:36):
to heal from some stuff in mypast, right? So, and I would say
five years ago, when I was onthe podcast, if you would have
asked me if I had trauma in mypast, I would have said no, I
had great parents. They stayedmarried, they went to every
basketball game I ever played.But what I've come to realize is
that while my parents werealways there for me physically,
(20:57):
they were rarely there for meemotionally. So I've got some
emotional neglect in mybackground, and I didn't know
that five years ago, and I'vecome to awaken to that and
engage with the trauma therapistto help me kind of heal my body
from that experience. I guessone of the things that I've
(21:17):
learned is how we are wired tosurvive our childhood is not the
wiring that we need to besuccessful as adults and as
leaders. And that's ultimatelywhat we're talking about, is,
how do we rewire ourselves? Andwhat I've learned just engaging
in this deepest level strategyof engaging with a trauma
therapist is doing that healingwork has done. I have, I have
(21:40):
grown and developed more as aperson in that two years than I
had the prior 16 years of myadult life. And I think at the
end of the day, that's why doingyou know, coming on this
podcast, sharing these ideas, ismeaningful to me, because at the
end of the day, if we want toelevate along our being side at
a foundational level, it's abouthealing our minds, our bodies
(22:04):
and our hearts. And if we wantto become transformationally
better, that's what it requires.It requires healing. And I've
just come to learn that most ofus need some healing.
Host (22:16):
The first time you joined the program, we discussed your
book, which was just about torelease, Success Mindsets. We've
touched today on a lot of thematerial that's in Becoming
Better your latest book, but inthe meantime, you've also put
out another great book, TheElevated Leader. We don't want
to overlook that.
Ryan Gottfredson (22:32):
For sure. And thank you for bringing it up.
And in fact, we have talkedabout it. So when I talked about
those three adult developmentlevels, level one, level two,
level three, that's what theelevated leader is all about,
getting to know those threelevels and allowing us to use
that framework to introspectabout the at the time, I wasn't
calling it this, but the I wascalling it the quality of our
(22:53):
internal operating system. Butnow the terminology we've used
here is that plus elevatingalong our being side.
Host (22:59):
You mentioned a number of assessments available on your
website today that people can goand start taking action on what
they've heard about today, laythat website on us one more time
and talk about what some ofthose assessments are and any
other free tools.
Ryan Gottfredson (23:16):
For sure. So there's the two on my website.
RyanGottfredson.com, there's afree personal mindset
assessment, a free verticaldevelopment assessment, again,
both of those are help us toawaken to the quality along our
being side. And then, if youwanted to do deeper work for
yourself, you know, I help, I doengage in coaching to help
(23:36):
people to upgrade themselves. Orwhen I work with organizations,
what I'll generally do is I'llhave groups or teams or even the
entire organization, take theseassessments, and then I could
aggregate those results up to acollective level, and we could
look at the collective mindsetsof an organization, of a group
of leaders or of a team. So ifanybody wants to do some of that
(23:59):
deeper work beyond just taking acouple of assessments, would
love to have some conversationswith folks. What I've
experienced, because I've workedwith hundreds of organizations
and 1000s of leaders, is forevery group that I've worked
with, this is an incredibly eyeopening experience and which
allows for transformation tooccur. And I just feel blessed
(24:21):
to kind of be playing in a, in aspot, and in a in a place where
I could help people to awaken tothe deeper sense of themselves,
so that they can elevatethemselves at this foundational level.
Host (24:32):
Well, Ryan, thank you so much for taking some time to
join us in the program today andfor helping us become better.
Ryan Gottfredson (24:38):
Thanks for having me, and thanks for
creating this platform. I knowhaving a podcast is not an easy
thing to do, and it's actually avery generous thing to do, so
(25:00):
appreciate your willingness todo that so that people like me
can share our ideas.
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