December 14, 2023 • 50 mins
Mike Pascoe joins host Kevin Patton in Episode 144 to chat about Mike's experience in editing the new Kenhub Atlas of Human Anatomy. We go behind the scenes to see how this new kind of anatomy atlas was developed. Let's see how those decisions get made and how the learning perspective gets incorporated into anatomy manuals. And we explore diverse representation in anatomy images and why we won't find any eponyms in this atlas. We also have a brief remembrance of our friend David Allard.
00:00 | Introduction
00:45 | Remembering David Allard
04:25 | Introducing Mike Pascoe
06:12 | A New Take on the Human Atlas
19:00 | Debriefing and Predictions Ahead
19:55 | Creating Books
34:25 | Your New Thing
35:44 | More Features of the New Atlas
47:27 | Staying Connected
★ If you cannot see or activate the audio player, go to: theAPprofessor.org/podcast-episode-144.html
🏅 Apply for your credential (badge/certificate) for listening to this episode: theAPprofessor.org/podcast-episode-144.html/#badge
⭐⭐⭐⭐ Please rate & review this podcast so that others can decide whether to give it a try: RateThisPodcast.com/theAPprofessor
❓ Please take the anonymous survey: theAPprofessor.org/survey
☝️ Questions & Feedback: 1-833-LION-DEN (1-833-546-6336)
✔️ Follow The A&P Professor on Twitter, Facebook, Blogger, Substack, Tumblr, or Instagram! @theAPprofessor
📰 Get the once-or-twice-weekly TAPP Science & Education Updates theAPprofessor.org/updates
The light of the heart is hidden in a drop of blood. (Rumi)
Remembering David Allard
3.5 minutes
In this segment, Kevin reflects on the recent passing of a friend and colleague, David Allard of Texas A&M University-Texarkana, who was an exceptional educator and human being. Kevin finds inspiration from David's generosity and commitment to his students and peers.
★ Muscle: A Gripping Story by Roy Meals | TAPP 142 (mentioned in this segment)
★ The One Teaching Strategy That Will Fix Your Anatomy & Physiology Course | TAPP 143 (where I talk about generosity in teaching)
★ Longtime Texarkana College and Texas A&M University-Texarkana biology professor David Allard dies (from Texarkana Gazette) AandP.info/qll
★ Dr David Allard Memorial Service 11-30-23 youtu.be/Gi2ZunUtMxk
★ Two new species of sand-burrowing amphipods of the genus Haustorius Müller, 1775 (Amphipoda: Hausto
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>>Kevin Patton:
The Persian poet and mystic Rumi once wrote, (00:00):
undefined
"The light of the heart is hidden in a dropof blood."
>>Aileen Park: Welcome to The A&P Professor. (00:11):
undefined
A few minutes to focus on teaching human anatomyand physiology with a veteran educator and
teaching mentor your host, Kevin Patton.
>>Kevin Patton: In episode 144, Mike Pascoe joins us to discuss (00:26):
undefined
his new human anatomy atlas.
>>Kevin Patton: Before we get to this episode's featured topic, (00:40):
undefined
there's something I'm going to share withyou.
In a recent episode, episode 142, which wasa chat with Dr. Roy Meals about his new book
called Muscle, a Gripping Story.
(01:03):
In the episode notes for that episode, I thankedmy friend David Allard for first introducing
me to the work of Roy Meals.
I first met David Allard through this podcast,through email conversations about various
topics related to teaching A&P.
Like me, he came to A&P through zoology, andwe had a lot of other things in common too.
(01:29):
For example, both of us had taught for decades.
He at Texas A&M University, Texarkana.
You may know David from HAPS, especially theHAPS listserv, where he occasionally contributed
to the conversation.
On November 1st, a post from David showedup on my personal Facebook feed that read
(01:52):
simply, "We Have COVID, yuck."
And then over the days and weeks that followed,I watched in helpless horror as more updates
came first from David and then from his wifeoperating David's Facebook account.
These were notes about his worsening condition,his hospitalization, his transition to a ventilator
(02:20):
in the ICU, and finally his death on November24.
Then like the bursting of a mushroom cloud,testimonials from colleagues and many, many
current and former students started poppingup in his Facebook feed, all painting an elaborate
(02:43):
picture of an amazing educator and more importantly,I think, an amazing human being.
Nearly all wrote of how much he cared foreach of his students and the personal and
professional success of each one of thosestudents, how he continued to support and
(03:07):
advise them long after they left his courses.
Now, in the previous episode of this podcast,episode 143, I talked about the goal of being
generous with our students and with our peers.
It's obvious to me that David Allard was theembodiment of that generosity.
(03:30):
In this podcast, I've often talked about howI frequently remind myself to keep working
at my self-imposed project of being the kindof educator and the kind of human I want to
be.
To be intentional about empathy, and compassionand yes, generosity.
(03:56):
I need inspiration to keep that work going,and I get it from many of you listening right
now.
Well, David was among those who inspired meand his life will continue to inspire me going
forward.
May the memory of David Allard and his lifeas an A&P professor be a blessing.
(04:19):
Cheers, my friend.
>>Kevin Patton: At the very beginning of this episode, I told (04:22):
undefined
you that we'd be chatting with Mike Pascoeabout his new human anatomy atlas.
But before we do that, I want to introduceyou to Mike.
He's an associate professor of anatomy atthe University of Colorado Anschutz Medical
(04:42):
Campus.
He studied the neurophysiology of movementat the University of Colorado Boulder and
then defended his doctoral dissertation in2010.
He joined the faculty at Anschutz in 2011,where he develops and delivers gross anatomy
curricula to physical therapy students, physicianassistant students, and medical doctor students.
(05:07):
His primary research interest is in the investigationof constructivist approaches in technology
enabled learning environments to improve learningoutcomes and student satisfaction.
For example, using wikis, interactive modulesor using Snapchat.
(05:28):
A secondary interest is the determinationof need-to-know anatomy content for physical
therapy students.
Mike Pascoe's service commitments includementoring students, organizing anatomy, laboratory
refresher courses for practicing clinicians,community outreach and service as a peer reviewer
(05:52):
for a whole bunch of anatomy education journals.
If you want to learn more about Mike or connectwith him, go to his website at MikePascoe.com
M-I-K-E-P-A-S-C-O-E dot com.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, hi Mike, it's really good to talk to (06:06):
undefined
you today.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah. (06:15):
undefined
Hey, Kevin.
Glad to be here.
>>Kevin Patton: You and I have known each other for a little (06:18):
undefined
bit, well at least corresponded and communicatedon various things, and I was really delighted
to see this really interesting and excitingthing that is happening in your professional
life.
And that is a publication of a new book thatyou're the main editor of, and it's called
(06:39):
the Atlas of Human Anatomy from Kenhub.
I have all kinds of questions about it, butbefore we get that far, I just thought maybe
for people who don't know, what is Kenhub?
>>Mike Pascoe: Great question, get it quite often. (06:54):
undefined
And I think that's because they are a companythat has started in Europe and has really
taken off and become quite popular in Europeand Asia.
And I think that that's maybe why many ofmy American colleagues and students don't
really know what's going on, and I reallypicture them as a disruptive, innovative anatomy
(07:19):
startup company.
So I think in another life I was a tech startupperson and going to school in Boulder, Colorado,
I would sit in on all these different techstartup, "Oh, we're launching a new app.
We're launching a new platform."
And so when I saw this company probably onsocial media, probably on Twitter making a
splash, I really immediately introduced myselfand told them what I was about, praised them
(07:43):
for their innovative approaches.
And so if you go to Kenhub.com, you'll definitelylearn all about them and what they offer.
And they're just a great online learning platform.
And there are a lot of really bright youngpeople behind the company, and there's a lot
of physicians and other healthcare professionalsguiding the content, writing the content.
(08:05):
I couldn't say enough positive things.
And then when they approached me with thisopportunity to do something much more formal
and edit their anatomy atlas, they're verymuch a digital web-based entity.
They wanted to enter the print market.
And so here we are, after a couple of yearsof work, of course, things have come to fruition
and that's Kenhub.
>>Kevin Patton: Okay, yeah, I was familiar with Kenhub before (08:25):
undefined
I saw that this book was published and thatyou were a major player in that process.
And I went back to their website to look atit, because it had been a little while since
I'd been in there, and it just seems to alwaysbe getting better.
There's just always more stuff and more tools,and that's really great to see that they're
(08:51):
expanding and as you say, they wanted to getinto the print market.
So that was a question I had when I saw thisis they have this beautiful website, a very
functional website, easily usable website.
Why would they want to get into another kindof venue, another kind of media or specifically
(09:12):
why this book?
>>Mike Pascoe: Oh, great questions. (09:14):
undefined
Yeah, you're right.
So much good content.
Do a Google search on something anatomy related,you'll probably have Wikipedia number one,
and then Kenhub will probably be the secondresult.
A lot of good articles and content.
I think what they're trying to do is we talkedabout how the content could be more accessible
(09:35):
and gain a wider audience.
We talked about all kinds of things, we talkedabout the way that now, especially since the
COVID pandemic, we all became a little bitmore familiar with spanning going from analog
to digital scanning QR codes.
So we definitely saw a way to make an atlasthat could be concise and then lead readers
(09:56):
and users to a bigger library of materialusing QR code scanning.
And there was also a little bit of an interestingaspect as well, this kind of cultural thing
of every healthcare profession student wantsa really nice atlas that they can physically
hold.
They want to have it on their bookshelf asa practicing clinician.
(10:16):
Now, I am a PhD by training, so this did notresonate with me whatsoever, but I trusted
them.
I asked around, I actually surveyed arounda hundred of my students and said, when it
comes to anatomy atlases, what's best?
Is it analog or digital?
They said analog.
They want to hold an atlas in their hands.
And that's what we led with.
(10:36):
We led with student input and student perspectives.
>>Kevin Patton: That resonates with me a little bit. (10:39):
undefined
I also am not a clinician.
I'm a PhD and I teach mainly undergraduateA&P, but I also teach in a master's program
for Northeast College of Health Sciences wherewe have the Master of Science in human anatomy
& physiology instruction.
(11:00):
So these are people that have taught A&P,or want to teach A&P, and they're learning
about teaching and about refreshing the content,bringing themselves up to date as far as the
content that we teach.
And one of the things that we do is duringone of our trimesters, we have two courses
where they are using both a print versionof the textbook that we're using and a digital
(11:23):
version of the textbook that they're using.
And at the end, they do a reflection.
They read each other's reflections and commenton them and so on.
And of course, I'm always interested to seewhat their reflection of that experience is.
Are they going to come down on the side ofdigital, are they going to come down the side
of a print?
(11:44):
And the end result is always interesting.
It's almost, I ought to do a study on thisor something, it's almost always sort of straddling
both sides.
They like some things about the digital, theylike the searchability of the digital and
some of those things and the fact that it'saccessible almost anywhere they go, but they
(12:08):
said, "I just can't do without my print, withoutthe print version.
I need that."
And it seems that Kenhub is answering thatneed of, they already have the website, very
rich website, and now they're providing thatprint part for the folks that really want
that, and need that and rely on having thatprint.
(12:31):
And I have to say I'm the same way, that thereare some things about the digital resources
that I like, but I sure do like, especiallywith anatomy, being able to really pour over
that page and look at it.
Yeah, I think they're going to find that'sa good move.
(12:52):
And that does answer another question I hadis like, are they looking to replace the website,
get rid of the website and so on, but I guessthat's not the case.
They're just expanding, right?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, bridging. (13:01):
undefined
It is probably a great marketing tactic.
You've got one product that will lead theuser to another great product, and so this
could definitely be a point of entry intothe Kenhub platform.
First exposure might be, "Oh, my anatomy professor'srecommending this as an atlas," reading all
the great reviews online, "Oh and hey, whatare these QR codes?
(13:23):
Oh, wait a minute, there's quizzes, there'svideos, there's articles."
There's all these things that are dynamicand always improving on the website.
So yeah, I think it's a great compliment forsure.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I'm glad you brought up those QR codes. (13:34):
undefined
I noticed that that's a feature of this bookand something that makes it pretty unique.
And you already touched on this idea thatstudents can have a relatively concise atlas
(13:55):
in a print form, but then when they want todive deeper, then they can scan that QR code.
And as you mentioned, everybody knows howto use a QR code now.
So I remember the days when that sort of thingwas a big hurdle.
It was like, "What?"
And just ignore those little funny littlethings in the corner, but I really like that
(14:21):
idea.
Can you talk a little bit about the thoughtprocess that went into that approach?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, absolutely. (14:27):
undefined
We know that almost every learner has somekind of access to a smartphone, so we thought
it would be something accessible to many learners.
And again, we really wanted to make sure basedon the form factor, don't forget this new
atlas is nine inches by six inches.
So it is small form factor, and I have confirmedthis.
(14:49):
It does fit in a anatomy lab coat front pocket.
Don't want you to put your hands in, of course.
Not the chest, that would be awkward.
But yeah, down near the waist.
And we really did not want this thing to betoo bulky, so we hit our goal of one inch
in thickness.
And so then we just needed a way to link andextend the rich content beyond the page, and
(15:11):
we thought it was time to just try to putQR codes in there.
And I'm assuming that the folks at Kenhub,our web development team, they're going to
be able to quantify how often those are usedand just see where we go.
And we think that society and has been kindof trained on how to use these now.
And I know my phone has a very quick accessQR code scanning app on it.
(15:36):
It's accessible from my lock screen so I canget to whatever a QR code is pointing to really
quickly.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I can imagine that pocket-size and thank (15:43):
undefined
you for testing it, increase our confidencebefore we buy it that it's going to fit in
our lab coat pocket.
That's so nice to have that handy, becausewe're all familiar with atlases that I'm looking
at some on my shelf right now, atlases thatyou can't really carry around in a lab.
(16:07):
It's just too heavy, and awkward, and messyand some of them, you almost need a magnifying
glass to see that detail that you're lookingfor in the moment.
And so having a pocket-size print resourcelike that that you can hold in your hand,
(16:28):
then not only can you quickly find things,because it's organized regionally as you would
expect, but you can flip through just a smallnumber of pages and get right to the area
that you're at.
And then if that's not really enough of whatyou're looking for, then you can quickly scan
and get to other resources.
(16:51):
That ability to do that is really great.
And so I was really intrigued when I saw thoseQR codes.
Have you gotten any feedback on that yet?
I know it is brand new, by the way.
I guess we ought to mention that this hasn'tbeen out there being used by hundreds or thousands
of people yet, because it just came out.
As a matter of fact, I've just been lookingat a sample myself.
(17:15):
My copy was supposed to arrive today, so itshould be here any day, any moment.
Maybe it'll come in, somebody will hand itto me while we're talking.
I don't know.
But the thing is I want to emphasize is brand,brand new.
It's just getting out there.
I know that you haven't had a lot of users,but reviewers and so on and even other people
(17:38):
working on the team.
Have you gotten any kind of feedback on thoseQR codes about the usability of them and the
convenience of them and so on?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I'd say the testing has all been in-house (17:46):
undefined
and I learned a great deal about how a textbookis made, how a textbook is born, and there
is this proof stage where the only real reasonwhy I have a copy is I have the proof copy
from four or five months ago, and there'vebeen some changes we made based off of reviewing
(18:08):
that and holding it in our hands.
But basically all the testing has been done,and this was very much something that we came
up with as developers, and it was not suggestedby students, although I just want to keep
mentioning students gave us so many good ideason how to design this thing, but became available
October 27, so about three weeks ago today.
(18:32):
And I really don't think I have any more onthe QR codes, but I would be very interested
in the analytics, the tracking data, verytech-savvy tech startup company, and I'm sure
they have all kinds of analytics to provide.
And I'm really interested in doing some focusgroups and some interviewing of students getting
this in their hands, asking them what theythink.
>>Kevin Patton: Mike Pascoe, and I will be back right after (18:52):
undefined
this short break.
>>Kevin Patton: Hey, I want to pause for just a moment and (18:59):
undefined
remind you that coming up pretty soon is ourannual debriefing episode, and that's where
I look back over all the topics and all theepisodes of this past year, and that helps
us confirm what we learned, what growth wehad and pull it all together.
(19:22):
And so we'll do that briefly and then we'llmove on into predictions for the coming year.
I'll check my predictions from last year andsee how far off the mark I was and then make
some new predictions for the coming year.
And I sure would love it if you would callin, or email or whatever with your predictions,
(19:43):
or your concerns or what you're looking forwardto in the next year of teaching anatomy and
physiology.
I hope to hear from you soon.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, you touched on something else I wanted (19:52):
undefined
to ask you about.
So having worked on textbooks myself, I thinka lot of people don't appreciate that there's
a lot of weird things that go on behind thescenes.
And what I mean by that is there's a lot ofsteps to getting a book like this out that
(20:16):
I think most of us don't realize unless we'vebeen through all of those steps.
I think a lot of us in academia are part ofthis little step or that little step for various
books or articles and things like that, butfrom start to finish, I don't think a lot
of people appreciate that.
(20:37):
What was that like being part of that wholecomplicated process?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, it was a learning experience. (20:42):
undefined
It is my first experience working in the textbookspace of any kind.
So it was very cool to be asked to be givenan opportunity to be an editor, and I was
really welcomed into the team and they runeverything again, just like a tech startup
company.
They've got Trello boards, there's Slack channels.
(21:04):
It's so effective, it's so efficient.
The decision-making process is just reallycool to be a part of and to see how they have
already organized, "Okay, this is how we'regoing to approach the construction of the
content.
Pascoe, you're going to review every wordof this book.
You're going to write in things when needed.
You're going to suggest pruning away thingswhen needed."
(21:26):
And that's all basically based on my experienceteaching PA, PT, MD, master's level, dental,
working with all these students trying tohit the target audience.
And so it was really neat to be part of theprocess and see how that was done.
And it is definitely representing a next step,a next evolution in scholarly activity.
It's somewhat similar, but in many ways differentthan working on an article for a journal publication.
(21:52):
And it was really, gosh, I want to say addicting.
It was really cool to go through these iterationsand evolutions of the book, to see it come
along, to see it grow, and then when it actuallycomes to fruition, it's just a rush that I've
never had in this kind of work before.
So yeah, we could go down that discussiona lot further if you want, but it was definitely,
(22:15):
as you've experienced, a pretty neat and prettyunique.
>>Kevin Patton: There are just so many layers. (22:17):
undefined
And one of the things that I've always appreciatedthat really resonates with me what you said
about working in a team, I love that processof bouncing ideas off of each other and going
back and forth on things and what have you.
And I have a very excellent team that I workwith also, and there's something really magical
(22:41):
when things click like that, so I'm glad tohear that that happened for you.
Let's get to something that just really knockedme on the floor when I looked at the sample,
and that is the sample that you sent me.
It has a two-page, little explanation of thevision of your team in promoting a vision
(23:05):
that includes diversity and inclusion.
And I think that that's on all of our mindsthese days in academia and certainly within
the anatomy and physiology, community of educators.
And I think our students are very keyed inon that as well.
Here's a book that from the start is havingthat vision.
(23:30):
And so I start looking at some of the samplesand the representation angle first of all,
it just looks really cool.
It's not that same, and I think the wordingthat I use is very similar to what was in
that little explanation that's in the bookitself.
And that is it's not that same young fit whitemale that we always see being represented
(23:56):
in anatomy books and other resources.
So tell me about how that developed and inyour experience of implementing that.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, that was definitely an idea that was (24:08):
undefined
fostered both by the entire team at Kenhub,which itself is a very diverse team.
And then I definitely supported this ideaand helped to add to it and have benefited
from being part of groups, and going to conferencesand going to sessions called Decolonization
(24:30):
of Anatomy Education.
What is going on with that?
As a white man, this stuff just totally, Idon't see this.
I'm in the dream.
My blinders are on to all these things.
So I've been very fortunate to be exposedto these ideas and these experiences by other
people that don't look like me.
And so now I'm really in on this and we tooka survey in our faculty and it's one of these
(24:56):
strength finding surveys, and my number onestrength was inclusion.
So I have it in my DNA and now I'm just findingreally great ways to get it out there and
to leverage and to speak and to help and partnerwith people.
And so it definitely was a co-evolution, Kenhubdefinitely recognize this need.
(25:17):
And then I brought the angle from the academicperspective like, "Oh, hey, did you know 90%
of anatomy atlases surveyed do not representbodies that are other than?"
And so it was really good to bring them thatacademic perspective, because they very much
understood this need.
And then it was years ago, I forget who recommended,let's make a statement almost like a mission
(25:40):
statement, a vision, and let's put it in thefront of the book.
This is page three of the book.
This is after the imprint.
This is right up in front of the user.
And this is something so important, and Iknow it's something that we all talk about
in our anatomy classes.
People like to tell me, "Hey, the human bodydoesn't change the structures where they're
located."
And I play along with that and say, "Yeah,okay.
(26:02):
But the way we teach it can definitely changeand definitely be better."
And we're talking about young adults, adultlearners, they're ready to have these conversations.
We got to be ready as educators.
They're going to ask us these questions.
Where are the Black women in our anatomy atlas,Dr. so-and-so what's going on there?
And so I think we need to be ready and we'regetting better.
A lot of work needs to be done.
(26:24):
And that is my recollection of where thatcame from.
It was definitely a co-evolution.
It was a very easy sell and I'm very proudof it, and that's one of the features I like
to lead with when I'm discussing the atlas.
So thank you Kevin for bringing that up.
>>Kevin Patton: As you were explaining that, I have the sample (26:38):
undefined
that you sent up on one of my monitors here,and I was kind of gazing off at that while
we're talking.
I noticed the one sample...
A lot of times when I hear of books makingan effort to be diverse in the representation,
(27:00):
I think of, okay, sex diversity and also colorof skin and so on.
And that's certainly a part of the samplethat I see here and part of the explanation
of what you mean by diversity in that sectionthat you just talked about at the beginning
of the book, but something that pleasantlysurprised me when I get to it.
(27:21):
The first example, I think it's the firstone here in the sample.
No, it's not.
It's the second one, shows a Black man, buthe's obese.
And so now we have diversity of body sizeand shape.
And that's not something that you see, historicallyat least, in anatomy books.
(27:46):
Hopefully we're going to see more of thatgoing forward throughout all of anatomy education,
but you're not just looking at one kind ofdiversity or representing one subgroup of
humanity, but it looks like you're reallybeing diverse in your diversity.
>>Mike Pascoe: Well, I have to lean on those that are really (28:05):
undefined
in this space and not pretend that I knowwhat diversity means.
I need to get feedback from people.
And so working with people like Dr. KristaRompolski and her work on weight bias, we
know it's a problem.
And so different body sizes is a big thing.
(28:25):
And you did mention have any people, academics,giving this a look over for feedback, and
that free preview you're mentioning is availableto everybody that goes to the webpage for
the atlas.
And it's the first 27 pages basically areavailable.
A group at the University of Plymouth, thePeninsula Medical School, specifically Siobhan,
(28:45):
Lilly and Katy, they looked at the sampleand they gave me point by point thematic feedback,
because my goal would be to have a secondedition of this because of all the feedback
we receive.
And look what I overlooked.
Look what I did not consider.
Age and disability are not mentioned and they'renot represented.
So also the range of different shapes andsizes of breast and genitalia, these are student
(29:10):
led comments and feedback.
And again, this is what I need and this isthe people I need to listen to.
And so they're guiding us and coaching us,and I would love to see those added in to
our vision of diversity.
>>Kevin Patton: That reminds me of experience I had when I (29:23):
undefined
was in your position with the first book thatI worked on, and I had a co-author who had
been doing this for decades, and I was expressinga similar sentiment about something, I can't
remember what it was, but some aspect of thatedition.
(29:44):
And he said, "Well, that's what next editionsare for."
He says, "Keep a keep a file."
And I think that's right.
That's another aspect I think of doing textbooksis that it's not a one and done thing.
It's a continuous process of evolution.
>>Mike Pascoe: I do want to add to that what we do put in (30:03):
undefined
our books demonstrates our priorities.
So if we're going to sacrifice space or timefor one thing so that we can do something
else, it demonstrates that the thing thatwe are doing is valuable.
So we're not doing it perfect.
We need the feedback, we want the feedback.
(30:25):
I talked about diversity, and then I lookat the cover of the book and I'm like, "Shoot,
man, look at what we did.
We put what could be identified as a whitemale that is young on the cover."
So I don't know.
Again, I've got this biased view of the worldbeing a white male, and I need to get some
feedback from people, and I'm very receptiveand open to that.
So yeah, hopefully this podcast episode opensthat door.
>>Kevin Patton: Another aspect that I noticed that you mentioned (30:49):
undefined
in the introductory material of the book thatrelates to this is avoiding eponyms, so what's
that about?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, it's about representation and it's about (31:02):
undefined
a lot of things.
So since we just came off of that previousdiscussion, it is about recognizing that a
huge majority of eponyms are representingwhite men that are typically centuries old.
So to borrow from colleagues in a great paperlike nomenclature, we don't need to use these
(31:26):
terms when we're teaching anatomy that eponymsare male, pale and stale, and this is a phrase
that I take from their work and share withmy students, and the students really understand
what that means.
And so we have that problem with eponyms.
We also have the problem of cognitive load.
So now you're teaching them the circle ofWillis, and then when they hear the circle
(31:48):
of Willis, there is that added burden of circleof Willis that is a cerebral arterial circle.
And then now I can start to recall what thatis comprised of.
So we have to cut down on that extraneousload.
And there was a recent publication out onsome of these eponyms are false friends.
They aren't even really telling us, we thinkwe know what they are, but they even misdirect
(32:11):
us and misguide us from a knowledge perspective.
So there is that problematic societal problem,but then there's also the cognitive problem.
So you can definitely argue this with peoplefrom multiple different angles and hopefully
they'll get the picture in different ways.
And again, part of the feedback that I gotfrom the Plymouth group was, thank you in
(32:32):
the Kenhub Atlas for de-emphasizing eponymsleading with the terminology and anatomic
toponym then in parentheses the eponym.
But could you please consider just droppingthe eponym altogether?
And I'm totally in favor of that.
Over the last couple of years, I've barelymentioned an eponym in my classroom.
I'm actually getting to the point where peopleare asking me about the pouch of Douglas and
(32:53):
I have to defer them somewhere else.
Like, "I don't teach that I am sorry."
I don't know what that is, and I don't knowif I should know as an anatomy professor,
but I also, it doesn't mean anything to me.
So I'm starting to lose meaning and cerebralspace for these eponyms.
So this is a big problem, and I stand on thework of a lot of people that have done a lot
(33:15):
of good things in this space, and it's laidout on page three of our atlas.
And I encourage everybody to look at thatand ask themselves what are they doing with
eponyms and what signal is it sending to theirlearners?
>>Kevin Patton: I feel like it's a very interesting experience (33:27):
undefined
being in this transition period where we'releaving eponyms behind.
And I think that's cool that you're takingthat step of just leaving them behind.
>>Mike Pascoe: And it must be hard to put down eponyms, but (33:41):
undefined
it's probably also really hard to not seeyourself represented in your learning materials
or to not have that feeling of, "Oh, there'ssomething great in the history of America.
Is it going to be my people represented asthe people that were doing that?"
So I really have very little sympathy for,"Oh, it must be hard to stop using eponyms."
(34:06):
Geez, it must be hard.
I mean, it's all relative, right?
So I can't possibly justify for myself howhard that is to put that down.
There's some real hard stuff out there.
So that's just the last thing that I'll addthere.
>>Kevin Patton: We'll get back to our chat in just a moment, (34:24):
undefined
but before we do, I want you to think aboutsomething and that is, don't you have something
to share with anatomy and physiology faculty?
Maybe it's a book like we're talking abouttoday, but maybe it's an article that you
(34:45):
wrote or even an article that you recentlyread and you got a lot out of it that you
want to share with other anatomy and physiologyfaculty.
Or maybe it's some project that you've beenworking on or some project that you've experienced
the benefit from.
Why not share it with several hundred otherA&P faculty so that they can get those benefits
(35:10):
so they can understand what's going on sothat they can be as excited as you are about
that new thing in your life.
Well, all you got to do is call the podcasthotline, which I'll be giving you at the end
of this episode or drop me a line and we'llchat about that and you can be the next one
that we talk to about your project, your article,your book, your new thing that is helping
(35:38):
you teach anatomy and physiology.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I'm back again here with Mike Pascoe, (35:41):
undefined
who is the editor of the new Kenhub Atlasof Human Anatomy.
Here we have this pocket-size atlas.
And by the way, I just want to mention I reallylove the interior design of the book.
(36:02):
It's super easy to use, especially if you'reusing it straight out of your pocket, where
you open it up and it's got a very, I don'tknow, I want to say simple, but I'm afraid
that'll be taken as a slam, but it's not.
That is a very clean design and very easyto navigate on the page and very easy to spot
(36:25):
where it is you need to look to find the informationthat you need.
And the labeling is awesome.
A lot of anatomy atlases, the labels are justcrazy all over the place.
And it's like you have to stop and take afew minutes just to figure out what's pointing
to what, but here it's not.
(36:46):
It's just a very well-thought-out design.
So kudos for that.
But okay, so we take it out of our pocket.
We find what we're looking for on the pagethere, but in what context am I using that?
In other words, like in your teaching, I assumeyou're going to either recommend or require
(37:06):
this for your students, at least in some ofyour courses.
How do you see you and them using this book?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I was invited to write a section of (37:14):
undefined
the book that describes how I envision orhow we envision students using this, and the
title of that section is Built for Learners.
And so again, it's important to recognizethat students told us how do you use anatomy
atlases?
And there were two main things that came up.
(37:34):
They used them in anatomy lab to locate structuresin our donors, and they used them to study
on exams.
Now, fortunately, we didn't dig any deeperinto that on what that looks like.
How do you use an anatomy atlas to study foran exam?
But I think that what we have in the atlasthat really facilitates learning is we have
a lot of fact tables and the fact tables areeffective ways of organizing content.
(37:59):
And if you've taught anatomy for a significantamount of time, you want to move students
away from the stigma of anatomies memorizationto a place of these are the patterns, these
are the rules of anatomy, these are the threads,and now you can deduce what the action of
the muscle is or what the innervation is.
And so in my teaching and in the teachingof others that have role-modeled this to me,
(38:23):
tables have been very helpful.
Tables reveal patterns.
When you see cells of the table have the samecontent, you can collapse those in your mind.
"Oh, everything in the anterior thigh is innervatedby the femoral nerve."
There's always exceptions except for, andthen you get to unweight, or unload, unburden
yourself from memorizing all those facts.
(38:45):
So that's my vision.
My vision is students are going to use thisin anatomy lab to locate things.
It's quick and easy to navigate.
They directed a lot of the structure of whatthat would look like, what that would be like.
They're going to have this at home, they'regoing to be studying, and actually because
of the portability, they could have it oncampus, or at home or they could move it around
(39:06):
pretty easily.
And they're going to be using these tables.
And then if they would like to, if they seewhat is available at the Kenhub website, they
want to do some of these quizzes where a structureis now labeled in a certain color.
And then they get to choose, okay, this isthe what or the question stem is, which one
of these is teres minor?
(39:27):
And then they have four images from the atlaswith various muscles highlighted.
So I think that's the way that students woulduse this.
We want to make sure it's more than passiveas a tool.
We don't want them to read and reread andto highlight, that is never advocated for,
that is not supported in the cognitive neuroscienceliterature.
So I think the next step would be to get learnersfully on board with that blank chart, that
(39:53):
blank table challenge, study the table inthe atlas, then recreate the table, but make
it blank.
Try to fill it in and then use the atlas tableas your answer key.
And always making sure what you're doing islined up with your instructor's learning objectives.
That's some of the ways that I envision studentsusing this, and that's how I would tell them.
(40:16):
So when Kenhub said, "Let's make this explicit,could you write a couple paragraphs that's
in the front matter in that free 27 page PDFanyone could download?"
It's all there.
>>Kevin Patton: I've always been a fan of tables for the very (40:27):
undefined
reasons that you explained.
Again, another aspect of this book that reallyresonates with me.
So I'm even more excited about it now aftertalking to you about this book.
And I'm really anxious for my copy to arriveand I can look at it some more and really
(40:48):
pour through it.
Are there any other things about the bookthat you think that people ought know?
Maybe any unique features, or approaches orthings about the way it's put together?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I mean, I'll just run through the quick (40:58):
undefined
student feedback.
Students surveyed, they preferred paper foran atlas, studying for an exam, finding a
structure in lab.
We just talked about.
I have not seen an anatomy atlas that hasthe indexing tabs on the cover.
So I was in anatomy lab with the med studentsjust last week, and a student was fumbling
(41:19):
through trying to find something related tothe lungs, and so they really had no sense
of where to go.
And the atlas was already open, so it's reallyhard for them to navigate.
Do you go to a table of contents?
Do you go to the index?
With the Kenhub Atlas, you go to the coverand then you can see, all right, if I want
to get into the thorax, I'll get there withina matter of seconds.
(41:41):
And then the students told us, get there byregion.
And then arrange each region by system.
And this is not novel, but it's definitelyan agreed-upon standard, maybe some surface
anatomy, then some skeletal anatomy, maybesome muscles next.
Neurovasculature.
So the organization is pretty intuitive.
(42:02):
The indexing of the tabs on the cover, definitelysomething that we wanted to innovate in.
The size is small.
And then the high quality illustrations.
So these are some top-notch world-class illustrators.
The illustration team has done amazing work,and that was definitely a requested, highly
(42:23):
named feature of an anatomy atlas.
And let's be real with learners with fixedbudgets, the price.
So I know the price is dynamic, but I willsay that generally speaking, this atlas is
offered at a third to half the price of yourlegacy atlases and you've ordered one, so
you could speak to that if you want, but we'vegot it there.
(42:44):
And then even at a further reduced rate, itis available as an ebook, think like Kindle,
think Apple Books, if there are those...
A third of learners said we really prefera digital anatomy atlas.
It's totally available and out there for sure.
Those are the last ideas of, to answer yourquestion, what else stands out about this
(43:05):
for sure.
>>Kevin Patton: I had glanced at the navigation with the tabs (43:06):
undefined
on the cover and then didn't go back to itand look more closely.
So I'm glad you mentioned that.
I think that's really awesome.
I love using tabs to navigate in a book myself,and that's awesome to have them on the cover,
so that makes it so much easier.
That and the other things that you listedand the things that we've talked about really
(43:29):
tell me that you and your team have reallyput a lot of thought into the student perspective
in terms of usability.
And I don't know that that always happensin some of the books that I've seen.
And I know that sometimes when I have sortof an idea of how to make one of our books
(43:52):
a little bit more usable, it's kind of aneffort to push that idea forward and because
it's not always like other books and so onwhen you do that, but you folks made some
bold moves here, I think, in the whole groupof things that you're doing, and that's great
that you're doing that from the beginning,from your first edition.
(44:14):
So I'm really happy with this.
And honestly, you asked about the price.
I don't remember what I paid, and I'm notsure if I can get to it very quickly here
what the price I paid, but I do remember thinkingthat, boy, this is a lot less than, well,
I won't name any names, but some of the otherbig atlases and almost certainly is going
(44:36):
to be more useful to students in terms oftheir learning.
I'm really impressed with this.
Mike, you did an awesome job with this andI trust that you're going to continue to have
a good time working with the team over atKenhub.
It sounds like an awesome team to work with.
I appreciate you spending a little bit oftime talking about your book.
(44:58):
Maybe come back on again some time and wecan dive a little bit deeper into one or more
of these issues that you brought up.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I would love to. (45:04):
undefined
Would love to see some reviews coming in.
Would love to respond to those and see wherewe go from there.
And putting this on social media in a bigway.
I'll get you a link that will get everybodyto all the links for engagement.
And what was especially fun, I do have tomention here, not lastly because it's least
(45:26):
important, but I have an in-house group offeedback givers.
I have my wife Stephanie and my two daughters,and they are 8 and 10 years old, and they
love giving feedback to me.
And so my wife's a physical therapist, andStephanie just gave a lot of good insight,
especially in some of the musculoskeletalsystem, the pelvic floor, "Hey, can you come
(45:49):
on over here and what would you think aboutthis if you were in PT school?
And what would you think about having a copyof this in your PT clinic?"
And so she provided really valuable feedbackand support, and it's just been so fun to
see my kids messing around with this proofcopy and asking about this and asking about
that and making comments about the bodiesthat are represented.
(46:12):
We are talking about these issues in our houseall the time because it needs to be normalized.
It's not a problem to talk about these thingsand these differences, and it's just been
a lot of fun to have that in-house team aswell as I'm sure you can appreciate.
>>Kevin Patton: It's great. (46:27):
undefined
As a matter of fact, I had a longtime friendof mine who actually, he was my mentor when
I was a apprentice lion tamer, and I stillkeep up with him and he's unfortunately having
some health problems and he's said, "Kevin,I keep pulling out that book you gave me 20
years ago, looking up what I got and whatpart they're talking about."
(46:54):
And I think that's very helpful to have peopleoutside the intended target audience looking
at it, because number one, I think it expandsour audience like, "Oh, I never thought of
that."
But also giving feedback from eyes that aren'tsort of already trained by other atlases.
Again, Mike, I'm really happy you were ableto spend time with us.
(47:16):
You took time out of your day to talk to us,and it's going to be really interesting to
watch things as they evolve.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, we started off this episode by taking (47:25):
undefined
a moment to mark the passing of the belovedA&P professor David Allard of Texas A&M University
Texarkana, and then we were joined by MikePascoe, editor of the New Atlas of Human Anatomy
from Kenhub.
(47:46):
Mike shared his experience and his insightsregarding its creation.
We learned about the vision to be inclusiveand how the team made sure that diverse people
were represented in the artwork, and we learnedwhy we won't find any eponyms in the book.
And we found out why Kenhub, the creatorsof an already comprehensive website, wanted
(48:12):
to expand into print media and how that relatesto student preferences.
Mike also shared a bit about learning thecomplexities of producing a textbook, the
behind-the-scenes look.
Mike mentioned a link to a free 27-page previewof the Atlas of Human Anatomy and other links
(48:35):
that I know you'll find to be useful and interesting.
For example, there's a link to The A&P ProfessorBook Club recommendation of the new atlas.
If you don't see those links in your podcastplayer, go to the show notes at the episode
page at theAPprofessor.org/144, and whileyou're there, you can claim your digital credential
(48:59):
for listening to this episode.
Do you have feedback, or questions from thisepisode or from the atlas itself?
Well, why not grab your phone and call thepodcast hotline.
It's 1-833-LION-DEN or 1-833-546-6336.
(49:21):
Or send a recording or written message topodcast@theAPprofessor.org.
I'll see you down the road.
>>Aileen Park: The A&P Professor is hosted by Dr. Kevin Patton, (49:34):
undefined
an award-winning professor and textbook authorin human anatomy and physiology.
>>Kevin Patton: This podcast is slippery when wet. (49:44):
undefined
undefined
"The light of the heart is hidden in a dropof blood."
>>Aileen Park: Welcome to The A&P Professor. (00:11):
undefined
A few minutes to focus on teaching human anatomyand physiology with a veteran educator and
teaching mentor your host, Kevin Patton.
>>Kevin Patton: In episode 144, Mike Pascoe joins us to discuss (00:26):
undefined
his new human anatomy atlas.
>>Kevin Patton: Before we get to this episode's featured topic, (00:40):
undefined
there's something I'm going to share withyou.
In a recent episode, episode 142, which wasa chat with Dr. Roy Meals about his new book
called Muscle, a Gripping Story.
(01:03):
In the episode notes for that episode, I thankedmy friend David Allard for first introducing
me to the work of Roy Meals.
I first met David Allard through this podcast,through email conversations about various
topics related to teaching A&P.
Like me, he came to A&P through zoology, andwe had a lot of other things in common too.
(01:29):
For example, both of us had taught for decades.
He at Texas A&M University, Texarkana.
You may know David from HAPS, especially theHAPS listserv, where he occasionally contributed
to the conversation.
On November 1st, a post from David showedup on my personal Facebook feed that read
(01:52):
simply, "We Have COVID, yuck."
And then over the days and weeks that followed,I watched in helpless horror as more updates
came first from David and then from his wifeoperating David's Facebook account.
These were notes about his worsening condition,his hospitalization, his transition to a ventilator
(02:20):
in the ICU, and finally his death on November24.
Then like the bursting of a mushroom cloud,testimonials from colleagues and many, many
current and former students started poppingup in his Facebook feed, all painting an elaborate
(02:43):
picture of an amazing educator and more importantly,I think, an amazing human being.
Nearly all wrote of how much he cared foreach of his students and the personal and
professional success of each one of thosestudents, how he continued to support and
(03:07):
advise them long after they left his courses.
Now, in the previous episode of this podcast,episode 143, I talked about the goal of being
generous with our students and with our peers.
It's obvious to me that David Allard was theembodiment of that generosity.
(03:30):
In this podcast, I've often talked about howI frequently remind myself to keep working
at my self-imposed project of being the kindof educator and the kind of human I want to
be.
To be intentional about empathy, and compassionand yes, generosity.
(03:56):
I need inspiration to keep that work going,and I get it from many of you listening right
now.
Well, David was among those who inspired meand his life will continue to inspire me going
forward.
May the memory of David Allard and his lifeas an A&P professor be a blessing.
(04:19):
Cheers, my friend.
>>Kevin Patton: At the very beginning of this episode, I told (04:22):
undefined
you that we'd be chatting with Mike Pascoeabout his new human anatomy atlas.
But before we do that, I want to introduceyou to Mike.
He's an associate professor of anatomy atthe University of Colorado Anschutz Medical
(04:42):
Campus.
He studied the neurophysiology of movementat the University of Colorado Boulder and
then defended his doctoral dissertation in2010.
He joined the faculty at Anschutz in 2011,where he develops and delivers gross anatomy
curricula to physical therapy students, physicianassistant students, and medical doctor students.
(05:07):
His primary research interest is in the investigationof constructivist approaches in technology
enabled learning environments to improve learningoutcomes and student satisfaction.
For example, using wikis, interactive modulesor using Snapchat.
(05:28):
A secondary interest is the determinationof need-to-know anatomy content for physical
therapy students.
Mike Pascoe's service commitments includementoring students, organizing anatomy, laboratory
refresher courses for practicing clinicians,community outreach and service as a peer reviewer
(05:52):
for a whole bunch of anatomy education journals.
If you want to learn more about Mike or connectwith him, go to his website at MikePascoe.com
M-I-K-E-P-A-S-C-O-E dot com.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, hi Mike, it's really good to talk to (06:06):
undefined
you today.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah. (06:15):
undefined
Hey, Kevin.
Glad to be here.
>>Kevin Patton: You and I have known each other for a little (06:18):
undefined
bit, well at least corresponded and communicatedon various things, and I was really delighted
to see this really interesting and excitingthing that is happening in your professional
life.
And that is a publication of a new book thatyou're the main editor of, and it's called
(06:39):
the Atlas of Human Anatomy from Kenhub.
I have all kinds of questions about it, butbefore we get that far, I just thought maybe
for people who don't know, what is Kenhub?
>>Mike Pascoe: Great question, get it quite often. (06:54):
undefined
And I think that's because they are a companythat has started in Europe and has really
taken off and become quite popular in Europeand Asia.
And I think that that's maybe why many ofmy American colleagues and students don't
really know what's going on, and I reallypicture them as a disruptive, innovative anatomy
(07:19):
startup company.
So I think in another life I was a tech startupperson and going to school in Boulder, Colorado,
I would sit in on all these different techstartup, "Oh, we're launching a new app.
We're launching a new platform."
And so when I saw this company probably onsocial media, probably on Twitter making a
splash, I really immediately introduced myselfand told them what I was about, praised them
(07:43):
for their innovative approaches.
And so if you go to Kenhub.com, you'll definitelylearn all about them and what they offer.
And they're just a great online learning platform.
And there are a lot of really bright youngpeople behind the company, and there's a lot
of physicians and other healthcare professionalsguiding the content, writing the content.
(08:05):
I couldn't say enough positive things.
And then when they approached me with thisopportunity to do something much more formal
and edit their anatomy atlas, they're verymuch a digital web-based entity.
They wanted to enter the print market.
And so here we are, after a couple of yearsof work, of course, things have come to fruition
and that's Kenhub.
>>Kevin Patton: Okay, yeah, I was familiar with Kenhub before (08:25):
undefined
I saw that this book was published and thatyou were a major player in that process.
And I went back to their website to look atit, because it had been a little while since
I'd been in there, and it just seems to alwaysbe getting better.
There's just always more stuff and more tools,and that's really great to see that they're
(08:51):
expanding and as you say, they wanted to getinto the print market.
So that was a question I had when I saw thisis they have this beautiful website, a very
functional website, easily usable website.
Why would they want to get into another kindof venue, another kind of media or specifically
(09:12):
why this book?
>>Mike Pascoe: Oh, great questions. (09:14):
undefined
Yeah, you're right.
So much good content.
Do a Google search on something anatomy related,you'll probably have Wikipedia number one,
and then Kenhub will probably be the secondresult.
A lot of good articles and content.
I think what they're trying to do is we talkedabout how the content could be more accessible
(09:35):
and gain a wider audience.
We talked about all kinds of things, we talkedabout the way that now, especially since the
COVID pandemic, we all became a little bitmore familiar with spanning going from analog
to digital scanning QR codes.
So we definitely saw a way to make an atlasthat could be concise and then lead readers
(09:56):
and users to a bigger library of materialusing QR code scanning.
And there was also a little bit of an interestingaspect as well, this kind of cultural thing
of every healthcare profession student wantsa really nice atlas that they can physically
hold.
They want to have it on their bookshelf asa practicing clinician.
(10:16):
Now, I am a PhD by training, so this did notresonate with me whatsoever, but I trusted
them.
I asked around, I actually surveyed arounda hundred of my students and said, when it
comes to anatomy atlases, what's best?
Is it analog or digital?
They said analog.
They want to hold an atlas in their hands.
And that's what we led with.
(10:36):
We led with student input and student perspectives.
>>Kevin Patton: That resonates with me a little bit. (10:39):
undefined
I also am not a clinician.
I'm a PhD and I teach mainly undergraduateA&P, but I also teach in a master's program
for Northeast College of Health Sciences wherewe have the Master of Science in human anatomy
& physiology instruction.
(11:00):
So these are people that have taught A&P,or want to teach A&P, and they're learning
about teaching and about refreshing the content,bringing themselves up to date as far as the
content that we teach.
And one of the things that we do is duringone of our trimesters, we have two courses
where they are using both a print versionof the textbook that we're using and a digital
(11:23):
version of the textbook that they're using.
And at the end, they do a reflection.
They read each other's reflections and commenton them and so on.
And of course, I'm always interested to seewhat their reflection of that experience is.
Are they going to come down on the side ofdigital, are they going to come down the side
of a print?
(11:44):
And the end result is always interesting.
It's almost, I ought to do a study on thisor something, it's almost always sort of straddling
both sides.
They like some things about the digital, theylike the searchability of the digital and
some of those things and the fact that it'saccessible almost anywhere they go, but they
(12:08):
said, "I just can't do without my print, withoutthe print version.
I need that."
And it seems that Kenhub is answering thatneed of, they already have the website, very
rich website, and now they're providing thatprint part for the folks that really want
that, and need that and rely on having thatprint.
(12:31):
And I have to say I'm the same way, that thereare some things about the digital resources
that I like, but I sure do like, especiallywith anatomy, being able to really pour over
that page and look at it.
Yeah, I think they're going to find that'sa good move.
(12:52):
And that does answer another question I hadis like, are they looking to replace the website,
get rid of the website and so on, but I guessthat's not the case.
They're just expanding, right?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, bridging. (13:01):
undefined
It is probably a great marketing tactic.
You've got one product that will lead theuser to another great product, and so this
could definitely be a point of entry intothe Kenhub platform.
First exposure might be, "Oh, my anatomy professor'srecommending this as an atlas," reading all
the great reviews online, "Oh and hey, whatare these QR codes?
(13:23):
Oh, wait a minute, there's quizzes, there'svideos, there's articles."
There's all these things that are dynamicand always improving on the website.
So yeah, I think it's a great compliment forsure.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I'm glad you brought up those QR codes. (13:34):
undefined
I noticed that that's a feature of this bookand something that makes it pretty unique.
And you already touched on this idea thatstudents can have a relatively concise atlas
(13:55):
in a print form, but then when they want todive deeper, then they can scan that QR code.
And as you mentioned, everybody knows howto use a QR code now.
So I remember the days when that sort of thingwas a big hurdle.
It was like, "What?"
And just ignore those little funny littlethings in the corner, but I really like that
(14:21):
idea.
Can you talk a little bit about the thoughtprocess that went into that approach?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, absolutely. (14:27):
undefined
We know that almost every learner has somekind of access to a smartphone, so we thought
it would be something accessible to many learners.
And again, we really wanted to make sure basedon the form factor, don't forget this new
atlas is nine inches by six inches.
So it is small form factor, and I have confirmedthis.
(14:49):
It does fit in a anatomy lab coat front pocket.
Don't want you to put your hands in, of course.
Not the chest, that would be awkward.
But yeah, down near the waist.
And we really did not want this thing to betoo bulky, so we hit our goal of one inch
in thickness.
And so then we just needed a way to link andextend the rich content beyond the page, and
(15:11):
we thought it was time to just try to putQR codes in there.
And I'm assuming that the folks at Kenhub,our web development team, they're going to
be able to quantify how often those are usedand just see where we go.
And we think that society and has been kindof trained on how to use these now.
And I know my phone has a very quick accessQR code scanning app on it.
(15:36):
It's accessible from my lock screen so I canget to whatever a QR code is pointing to really
quickly.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I can imagine that pocket-size and thank (15:43):
undefined
you for testing it, increase our confidencebefore we buy it that it's going to fit in
our lab coat pocket.
That's so nice to have that handy, becausewe're all familiar with atlases that I'm looking
at some on my shelf right now, atlases thatyou can't really carry around in a lab.
(16:07):
It's just too heavy, and awkward, and messyand some of them, you almost need a magnifying
glass to see that detail that you're lookingfor in the moment.
And so having a pocket-size print resourcelike that that you can hold in your hand,
(16:28):
then not only can you quickly find things,because it's organized regionally as you would
expect, but you can flip through just a smallnumber of pages and get right to the area
that you're at.
And then if that's not really enough of whatyou're looking for, then you can quickly scan
and get to other resources.
(16:51):
That ability to do that is really great.
And so I was really intrigued when I saw thoseQR codes.
Have you gotten any feedback on that yet?
I know it is brand new, by the way.
I guess we ought to mention that this hasn'tbeen out there being used by hundreds or thousands
of people yet, because it just came out.
As a matter of fact, I've just been lookingat a sample myself.
(17:15):
My copy was supposed to arrive today, so itshould be here any day, any moment.
Maybe it'll come in, somebody will hand itto me while we're talking.
I don't know.
But the thing is I want to emphasize is brand,brand new.
It's just getting out there.
I know that you haven't had a lot of users,but reviewers and so on and even other people
(17:38):
working on the team.
Have you gotten any kind of feedback on thoseQR codes about the usability of them and the
convenience of them and so on?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I'd say the testing has all been in-house (17:46):
undefined
and I learned a great deal about how a textbookis made, how a textbook is born, and there
is this proof stage where the only real reasonwhy I have a copy is I have the proof copy
from four or five months ago, and there'vebeen some changes we made based off of reviewing
(18:08):
that and holding it in our hands.
But basically all the testing has been done,and this was very much something that we came
up with as developers, and it was not suggestedby students, although I just want to keep
mentioning students gave us so many good ideason how to design this thing, but became available
October 27, so about three weeks ago today.
(18:32):
And I really don't think I have any more onthe QR codes, but I would be very interested
in the analytics, the tracking data, verytech-savvy tech startup company, and I'm sure
they have all kinds of analytics to provide.
And I'm really interested in doing some focusgroups and some interviewing of students getting
this in their hands, asking them what theythink.
>>Kevin Patton: Mike Pascoe, and I will be back right after (18:52):
undefined
this short break.
>>Kevin Patton: Hey, I want to pause for just a moment and (18:59):
undefined
remind you that coming up pretty soon is ourannual debriefing episode, and that's where
I look back over all the topics and all theepisodes of this past year, and that helps
us confirm what we learned, what growth wehad and pull it all together.
(19:22):
And so we'll do that briefly and then we'llmove on into predictions for the coming year.
I'll check my predictions from last year andsee how far off the mark I was and then make
some new predictions for the coming year.
And I sure would love it if you would callin, or email or whatever with your predictions,
(19:43):
or your concerns or what you're looking forwardto in the next year of teaching anatomy and
physiology.
I hope to hear from you soon.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, you touched on something else I wanted (19:52):
undefined
to ask you about.
So having worked on textbooks myself, I thinka lot of people don't appreciate that there's
a lot of weird things that go on behind thescenes.
And what I mean by that is there's a lot ofsteps to getting a book like this out that
(20:16):
I think most of us don't realize unless we'vebeen through all of those steps.
I think a lot of us in academia are part ofthis little step or that little step for various
books or articles and things like that, butfrom start to finish, I don't think a lot
of people appreciate that.
(20:37):
What was that like being part of that wholecomplicated process?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, it was a learning experience. (20:42):
undefined
It is my first experience working in the textbookspace of any kind.
So it was very cool to be asked to be givenan opportunity to be an editor, and I was
really welcomed into the team and they runeverything again, just like a tech startup
company.
They've got Trello boards, there's Slack channels.
(21:04):
It's so effective, it's so efficient.
The decision-making process is just reallycool to be a part of and to see how they have
already organized, "Okay, this is how we'regoing to approach the construction of the
content.
Pascoe, you're going to review every wordof this book.
You're going to write in things when needed.
You're going to suggest pruning away thingswhen needed."
(21:26):
And that's all basically based on my experienceteaching PA, PT, MD, master's level, dental,
working with all these students trying tohit the target audience.
And so it was really neat to be part of theprocess and see how that was done.
And it is definitely representing a next step,a next evolution in scholarly activity.
It's somewhat similar, but in many ways differentthan working on an article for a journal publication.
(21:52):
And it was really, gosh, I want to say addicting.
It was really cool to go through these iterationsand evolutions of the book, to see it come
along, to see it grow, and then when it actuallycomes to fruition, it's just a rush that I've
never had in this kind of work before.
So yeah, we could go down that discussiona lot further if you want, but it was definitely,
(22:15):
as you've experienced, a pretty neat and prettyunique.
>>Kevin Patton: There are just so many layers. (22:17):
undefined
And one of the things that I've always appreciatedthat really resonates with me what you said
about working in a team, I love that processof bouncing ideas off of each other and going
back and forth on things and what have you.
And I have a very excellent team that I workwith also, and there's something really magical
(22:41):
when things click like that, so I'm glad tohear that that happened for you.
Let's get to something that just really knockedme on the floor when I looked at the sample,
and that is the sample that you sent me.
It has a two-page, little explanation of thevision of your team in promoting a vision
(23:05):
that includes diversity and inclusion.
And I think that that's on all of our mindsthese days in academia and certainly within
the anatomy and physiology, community of educators.
And I think our students are very keyed inon that as well.
Here's a book that from the start is havingthat vision.
(23:30):
And so I start looking at some of the samplesand the representation angle first of all,
it just looks really cool.
It's not that same, and I think the wordingthat I use is very similar to what was in
that little explanation that's in the bookitself.
And that is it's not that same young fit whitemale that we always see being represented
(23:56):
in anatomy books and other resources.
So tell me about how that developed and inyour experience of implementing that.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, that was definitely an idea that was (24:08):
undefined
fostered both by the entire team at Kenhub,which itself is a very diverse team.
And then I definitely supported this ideaand helped to add to it and have benefited
from being part of groups, and going to conferencesand going to sessions called Decolonization
(24:30):
of Anatomy Education.
What is going on with that?
As a white man, this stuff just totally, Idon't see this.
I'm in the dream.
My blinders are on to all these things.
So I've been very fortunate to be exposedto these ideas and these experiences by other
people that don't look like me.
And so now I'm really in on this and we tooka survey in our faculty and it's one of these
(24:56):
strength finding surveys, and my number onestrength was inclusion.
So I have it in my DNA and now I'm just findingreally great ways to get it out there and
to leverage and to speak and to help and partnerwith people.
And so it definitely was a co-evolution, Kenhubdefinitely recognize this need.
(25:17):
And then I brought the angle from the academicperspective like, "Oh, hey, did you know 90%
of anatomy atlases surveyed do not representbodies that are other than?"
And so it was really good to bring them thatacademic perspective, because they very much
understood this need.
And then it was years ago, I forget who recommended,let's make a statement almost like a mission
(25:40):
statement, a vision, and let's put it in thefront of the book.
This is page three of the book.
This is after the imprint.
This is right up in front of the user.
And this is something so important, and Iknow it's something that we all talk about
in our anatomy classes.
People like to tell me, "Hey, the human bodydoesn't change the structures where they're
located."
And I play along with that and say, "Yeah,okay.
(26:02):
But the way we teach it can definitely changeand definitely be better."
And we're talking about young adults, adultlearners, they're ready to have these conversations.
We got to be ready as educators.
They're going to ask us these questions.
Where are the Black women in our anatomy atlas,Dr. so-and-so what's going on there?
And so I think we need to be ready and we'regetting better.
A lot of work needs to be done.
(26:24):
And that is my recollection of where thatcame from.
It was definitely a co-evolution.
It was a very easy sell and I'm very proudof it, and that's one of the features I like
to lead with when I'm discussing the atlas.
So thank you Kevin for bringing that up.
>>Kevin Patton: As you were explaining that, I have the sample (26:38):
undefined
that you sent up on one of my monitors here,and I was kind of gazing off at that while
we're talking.
I noticed the one sample...
A lot of times when I hear of books makingan effort to be diverse in the representation,
(27:00):
I think of, okay, sex diversity and also colorof skin and so on.
And that's certainly a part of the samplethat I see here and part of the explanation
of what you mean by diversity in that sectionthat you just talked about at the beginning
of the book, but something that pleasantlysurprised me when I get to it.
(27:21):
The first example, I think it's the firstone here in the sample.
No, it's not.
It's the second one, shows a Black man, buthe's obese.
And so now we have diversity of body sizeand shape.
And that's not something that you see, historicallyat least, in anatomy books.
(27:46):
Hopefully we're going to see more of thatgoing forward throughout all of anatomy education,
but you're not just looking at one kind ofdiversity or representing one subgroup of
humanity, but it looks like you're reallybeing diverse in your diversity.
>>Mike Pascoe: Well, I have to lean on those that are really (28:05):
undefined
in this space and not pretend that I knowwhat diversity means.
I need to get feedback from people.
And so working with people like Dr. KristaRompolski and her work on weight bias, we
know it's a problem.
And so different body sizes is a big thing.
(28:25):
And you did mention have any people, academics,giving this a look over for feedback, and
that free preview you're mentioning is availableto everybody that goes to the webpage for
the atlas.
And it's the first 27 pages basically areavailable.
A group at the University of Plymouth, thePeninsula Medical School, specifically Siobhan,
(28:45):
Lilly and Katy, they looked at the sampleand they gave me point by point thematic feedback,
because my goal would be to have a secondedition of this because of all the feedback
we receive.
And look what I overlooked.
Look what I did not consider.
Age and disability are not mentioned and they'renot represented.
So also the range of different shapes andsizes of breast and genitalia, these are student
(29:10):
led comments and feedback.
And again, this is what I need and this isthe people I need to listen to.
And so they're guiding us and coaching us,and I would love to see those added in to
our vision of diversity.
>>Kevin Patton: That reminds me of experience I had when I (29:23):
undefined
was in your position with the first book thatI worked on, and I had a co-author who had
been doing this for decades, and I was expressinga similar sentiment about something, I can't
remember what it was, but some aspect of thatedition.
(29:44):
And he said, "Well, that's what next editionsare for."
He says, "Keep a keep a file."
And I think that's right.
That's another aspect I think of doing textbooksis that it's not a one and done thing.
It's a continuous process of evolution.
>>Mike Pascoe: I do want to add to that what we do put in (30:03):
undefined
our books demonstrates our priorities.
So if we're going to sacrifice space or timefor one thing so that we can do something
else, it demonstrates that the thing thatwe are doing is valuable.
So we're not doing it perfect.
We need the feedback, we want the feedback.
(30:25):
I talked about diversity, and then I lookat the cover of the book and I'm like, "Shoot,
man, look at what we did.
We put what could be identified as a whitemale that is young on the cover."
So I don't know.
Again, I've got this biased view of the worldbeing a white male, and I need to get some
feedback from people, and I'm very receptiveand open to that.
So yeah, hopefully this podcast episode opensthat door.
>>Kevin Patton: Another aspect that I noticed that you mentioned (30:49):
undefined
in the introductory material of the book thatrelates to this is avoiding eponyms, so what's
that about?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, it's about representation and it's about (31:02):
undefined
a lot of things.
So since we just came off of that previousdiscussion, it is about recognizing that a
huge majority of eponyms are representingwhite men that are typically centuries old.
So to borrow from colleagues in a great paperlike nomenclature, we don't need to use these
(31:26):
terms when we're teaching anatomy that eponymsare male, pale and stale, and this is a phrase
that I take from their work and share withmy students, and the students really understand
what that means.
And so we have that problem with eponyms.
We also have the problem of cognitive load.
So now you're teaching them the circle ofWillis, and then when they hear the circle
(31:48):
of Willis, there is that added burden of circleof Willis that is a cerebral arterial circle.
And then now I can start to recall what thatis comprised of.
So we have to cut down on that extraneousload.
And there was a recent publication out onsome of these eponyms are false friends.
They aren't even really telling us, we thinkwe know what they are, but they even misdirect
(32:11):
us and misguide us from a knowledge perspective.
So there is that problematic societal problem,but then there's also the cognitive problem.
So you can definitely argue this with peoplefrom multiple different angles and hopefully
they'll get the picture in different ways.
And again, part of the feedback that I gotfrom the Plymouth group was, thank you in
(32:32):
the Kenhub Atlas for de-emphasizing eponymsleading with the terminology and anatomic
toponym then in parentheses the eponym.
But could you please consider just droppingthe eponym altogether?
And I'm totally in favor of that.
Over the last couple of years, I've barelymentioned an eponym in my classroom.
I'm actually getting to the point where peopleare asking me about the pouch of Douglas and
(32:53):
I have to defer them somewhere else.
Like, "I don't teach that I am sorry."
I don't know what that is, and I don't knowif I should know as an anatomy professor,
but I also, it doesn't mean anything to me.
So I'm starting to lose meaning and cerebralspace for these eponyms.
So this is a big problem, and I stand on thework of a lot of people that have done a lot
(33:15):
of good things in this space, and it's laidout on page three of our atlas.
And I encourage everybody to look at thatand ask themselves what are they doing with
eponyms and what signal is it sending to theirlearners?
>>Kevin Patton: I feel like it's a very interesting experience (33:27):
undefined
being in this transition period where we'releaving eponyms behind.
And I think that's cool that you're takingthat step of just leaving them behind.
>>Mike Pascoe: And it must be hard to put down eponyms, but (33:41):
undefined
it's probably also really hard to not seeyourself represented in your learning materials
or to not have that feeling of, "Oh, there'ssomething great in the history of America.
Is it going to be my people represented asthe people that were doing that?"
So I really have very little sympathy for,"Oh, it must be hard to stop using eponyms."
(34:06):
Geez, it must be hard.
I mean, it's all relative, right?
So I can't possibly justify for myself howhard that is to put that down.
There's some real hard stuff out there.
So that's just the last thing that I'll addthere.
>>Kevin Patton: We'll get back to our chat in just a moment, (34:24):
undefined
but before we do, I want you to think aboutsomething and that is, don't you have something
to share with anatomy and physiology faculty?
Maybe it's a book like we're talking abouttoday, but maybe it's an article that you
(34:45):
wrote or even an article that you recentlyread and you got a lot out of it that you
want to share with other anatomy and physiologyfaculty.
Or maybe it's some project that you've beenworking on or some project that you've experienced
the benefit from.
Why not share it with several hundred otherA&P faculty so that they can get those benefits
(35:10):
so they can understand what's going on sothat they can be as excited as you are about
that new thing in your life.
Well, all you got to do is call the podcasthotline, which I'll be giving you at the end
of this episode or drop me a line and we'llchat about that and you can be the next one
that we talk to about your project, your article,your book, your new thing that is helping
(35:38):
you teach anatomy and physiology.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, I'm back again here with Mike Pascoe, (35:41):
undefined
who is the editor of the new Kenhub Atlasof Human Anatomy.
Here we have this pocket-size atlas.
And by the way, I just want to mention I reallylove the interior design of the book.
(36:02):
It's super easy to use, especially if you'reusing it straight out of your pocket, where
you open it up and it's got a very, I don'tknow, I want to say simple, but I'm afraid
that'll be taken as a slam, but it's not.
That is a very clean design and very easyto navigate on the page and very easy to spot
(36:25):
where it is you need to look to find the informationthat you need.
And the labeling is awesome.
A lot of anatomy atlases, the labels are justcrazy all over the place.
And it's like you have to stop and take afew minutes just to figure out what's pointing
to what, but here it's not.
(36:46):
It's just a very well-thought-out design.
So kudos for that.
But okay, so we take it out of our pocket.
We find what we're looking for on the pagethere, but in what context am I using that?
In other words, like in your teaching, I assumeyou're going to either recommend or require
(37:06):
this for your students, at least in some ofyour courses.
How do you see you and them using this book?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I was invited to write a section of (37:14):
undefined
the book that describes how I envision orhow we envision students using this, and the
title of that section is Built for Learners.
And so again, it's important to recognizethat students told us how do you use anatomy
atlases?
And there were two main things that came up.
(37:34):
They used them in anatomy lab to locate structuresin our donors, and they used them to study
on exams.
Now, fortunately, we didn't dig any deeperinto that on what that looks like.
How do you use an anatomy atlas to study foran exam?
But I think that what we have in the atlasthat really facilitates learning is we have
a lot of fact tables and the fact tables areeffective ways of organizing content.
(37:59):
And if you've taught anatomy for a significantamount of time, you want to move students
away from the stigma of anatomies memorizationto a place of these are the patterns, these
are the rules of anatomy, these are the threads,and now you can deduce what the action of
the muscle is or what the innervation is.
And so in my teaching and in the teachingof others that have role-modeled this to me,
(38:23):
tables have been very helpful.
Tables reveal patterns.
When you see cells of the table have the samecontent, you can collapse those in your mind.
"Oh, everything in the anterior thigh is innervatedby the femoral nerve."
There's always exceptions except for, andthen you get to unweight, or unload, unburden
yourself from memorizing all those facts.
(38:45):
So that's my vision.
My vision is students are going to use thisin anatomy lab to locate things.
It's quick and easy to navigate.
They directed a lot of the structure of whatthat would look like, what that would be like.
They're going to have this at home, they'regoing to be studying, and actually because
of the portability, they could have it oncampus, or at home or they could move it around
(39:06):
pretty easily.
And they're going to be using these tables.
And then if they would like to, if they seewhat is available at the Kenhub website, they
want to do some of these quizzes where a structureis now labeled in a certain color.
And then they get to choose, okay, this isthe what or the question stem is, which one
of these is teres minor?
(39:27):
And then they have four images from the atlaswith various muscles highlighted.
So I think that's the way that students woulduse this.
We want to make sure it's more than passiveas a tool.
We don't want them to read and reread andto highlight, that is never advocated for,
that is not supported in the cognitive neuroscienceliterature.
So I think the next step would be to get learnersfully on board with that blank chart, that
(39:53):
blank table challenge, study the table inthe atlas, then recreate the table, but make
it blank.
Try to fill it in and then use the atlas tableas your answer key.
And always making sure what you're doing islined up with your instructor's learning objectives.
That's some of the ways that I envision studentsusing this, and that's how I would tell them.
(40:16):
So when Kenhub said, "Let's make this explicit,could you write a couple paragraphs that's
in the front matter in that free 27 page PDFanyone could download?"
It's all there.
>>Kevin Patton: I've always been a fan of tables for the very (40:27):
undefined
reasons that you explained.
Again, another aspect of this book that reallyresonates with me.
So I'm even more excited about it now aftertalking to you about this book.
And I'm really anxious for my copy to arriveand I can look at it some more and really
(40:48):
pour through it.
Are there any other things about the bookthat you think that people ought know?
Maybe any unique features, or approaches orthings about the way it's put together?
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I mean, I'll just run through the quick (40:58):
undefined
student feedback.
Students surveyed, they preferred paper foran atlas, studying for an exam, finding a
structure in lab.
We just talked about.
I have not seen an anatomy atlas that hasthe indexing tabs on the cover.
So I was in anatomy lab with the med studentsjust last week, and a student was fumbling
(41:19):
through trying to find something related tothe lungs, and so they really had no sense
of where to go.
And the atlas was already open, so it's reallyhard for them to navigate.
Do you go to a table of contents?
Do you go to the index?
With the Kenhub Atlas, you go to the coverand then you can see, all right, if I want
to get into the thorax, I'll get there withina matter of seconds.
(41:41):
And then the students told us, get there byregion.
And then arrange each region by system.
And this is not novel, but it's definitelyan agreed-upon standard, maybe some surface
anatomy, then some skeletal anatomy, maybesome muscles next.
Neurovasculature.
So the organization is pretty intuitive.
(42:02):
The indexing of the tabs on the cover, definitelysomething that we wanted to innovate in.
The size is small.
And then the high quality illustrations.
So these are some top-notch world-class illustrators.
The illustration team has done amazing work,and that was definitely a requested, highly
(42:23):
named feature of an anatomy atlas.
And let's be real with learners with fixedbudgets, the price.
So I know the price is dynamic, but I willsay that generally speaking, this atlas is
offered at a third to half the price of yourlegacy atlases and you've ordered one, so
you could speak to that if you want, but we'vegot it there.
(42:44):
And then even at a further reduced rate, itis available as an ebook, think like Kindle,
think Apple Books, if there are those...
A third of learners said we really prefera digital anatomy atlas.
It's totally available and out there for sure.
Those are the last ideas of, to answer yourquestion, what else stands out about this
(43:05):
for sure.
>>Kevin Patton: I had glanced at the navigation with the tabs (43:06):
undefined
on the cover and then didn't go back to itand look more closely.
So I'm glad you mentioned that.
I think that's really awesome.
I love using tabs to navigate in a book myself,and that's awesome to have them on the cover,
so that makes it so much easier.
That and the other things that you listedand the things that we've talked about really
(43:29):
tell me that you and your team have reallyput a lot of thought into the student perspective
in terms of usability.
And I don't know that that always happensin some of the books that I've seen.
And I know that sometimes when I have sortof an idea of how to make one of our books
(43:52):
a little bit more usable, it's kind of aneffort to push that idea forward and because
it's not always like other books and so onwhen you do that, but you folks made some
bold moves here, I think, in the whole groupof things that you're doing, and that's great
that you're doing that from the beginning,from your first edition.
(44:14):
So I'm really happy with this.
And honestly, you asked about the price.
I don't remember what I paid, and I'm notsure if I can get to it very quickly here
what the price I paid, but I do remember thinkingthat, boy, this is a lot less than, well,
I won't name any names, but some of the otherbig atlases and almost certainly is going
(44:36):
to be more useful to students in terms oftheir learning.
I'm really impressed with this.
Mike, you did an awesome job with this andI trust that you're going to continue to have
a good time working with the team over atKenhub.
It sounds like an awesome team to work with.
I appreciate you spending a little bit oftime talking about your book.
(44:58):
Maybe come back on again some time and wecan dive a little bit deeper into one or more
of these issues that you brought up.
>>Mike Pascoe: Yeah, I would love to. (45:04):
undefined
Would love to see some reviews coming in.
Would love to respond to those and see wherewe go from there.
And putting this on social media in a bigway.
I'll get you a link that will get everybodyto all the links for engagement.
And what was especially fun, I do have tomention here, not lastly because it's least
(45:26):
important, but I have an in-house group offeedback givers.
I have my wife Stephanie and my two daughters,and they are 8 and 10 years old, and they
love giving feedback to me.
And so my wife's a physical therapist, andStephanie just gave a lot of good insight,
especially in some of the musculoskeletalsystem, the pelvic floor, "Hey, can you come
(45:49):
on over here and what would you think aboutthis if you were in PT school?
And what would you think about having a copyof this in your PT clinic?"
And so she provided really valuable feedbackand support, and it's just been so fun to
see my kids messing around with this proofcopy and asking about this and asking about
that and making comments about the bodiesthat are represented.
(46:12):
We are talking about these issues in our houseall the time because it needs to be normalized.
It's not a problem to talk about these thingsand these differences, and it's just been
a lot of fun to have that in-house team aswell as I'm sure you can appreciate.
>>Kevin Patton: It's great. (46:27):
undefined
As a matter of fact, I had a longtime friendof mine who actually, he was my mentor when
I was a apprentice lion tamer, and I stillkeep up with him and he's unfortunately having
some health problems and he's said, "Kevin,I keep pulling out that book you gave me 20
years ago, looking up what I got and whatpart they're talking about."
(46:54):
And I think that's very helpful to have peopleoutside the intended target audience looking
at it, because number one, I think it expandsour audience like, "Oh, I never thought of
that."
But also giving feedback from eyes that aren'tsort of already trained by other atlases.
Again, Mike, I'm really happy you were ableto spend time with us.
(47:16):
You took time out of your day to talk to us,and it's going to be really interesting to
watch things as they evolve.
>>Kevin Patton: Well, we started off this episode by taking (47:25):
undefined
a moment to mark the passing of the belovedA&P professor David Allard of Texas A&M University
Texarkana, and then we were joined by MikePascoe, editor of the New Atlas of Human Anatomy
from Kenhub.
(47:46):
Mike shared his experience and his insightsregarding its creation.
We learned about the vision to be inclusiveand how the team made sure that diverse people
were represented in the artwork, and we learnedwhy we won't find any eponyms in the book.
And we found out why Kenhub, the creatorsof an already comprehensive website, wanted
(48:12):
to expand into print media and how that relatesto student preferences.
Mike also shared a bit about learning thecomplexities of producing a textbook, the
behind-the-scenes look.
Mike mentioned a link to a free 27-page previewof the Atlas of Human Anatomy and other links
(48:35):
that I know you'll find to be useful and interesting.
For example, there's a link to The A&P ProfessorBook Club recommendation of the new atlas.
If you don't see those links in your podcastplayer, go to the show notes at the episode
page at theAPprofessor.org/144, and whileyou're there, you can claim your digital credential
(48:59):
for listening to this episode.
Do you have feedback, or questions from thisepisode or from the atlas itself?
Well, why not grab your phone and call thepodcast hotline.
It's 1-833-LION-DEN or 1-833-546-6336.
(49:21):
Or send a recording or written message topodcast@theAPprofessor.org.
I'll see you down the road.
>>Aileen Park: The A&P Professor is hosted by Dr. Kevin Patton, (49:34):
undefined
an award-winning professor and textbook authorin human anatomy and physiology.
>>Kevin Patton: This podcast is slippery when wet. (49:44):
undefined
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com