September 24, 2025 • 58 mins
Murray Jensen joins Kevin Patton to explore dual enrollment in anatomy & physiology. From guided inquiry to the power of teacher communities, this conversation reveals why messy classrooms often yield the best results.
00:00 | Introduction
00:48 | Murray Jensen, HAPS President's Medal Laureate
02:27 | What Is Dual Enrollment, Anyway?
11:44 | Two-Word Check-In*
12:53 | Guided Inquiry, Not Guided Napping
25:51 | Concept Echo*
26:37 | No, Not Nightly Recorded Lectures
31:09 | Rigor Reality Check*
32:11 | Rigor, Range, & Real Talk
39:25 | Respect Reframe*
40:02 | Why It Matters: Heart, Head, & High School
47:55 | Slide Diet*
49:06 | Money, Mission, & a Playbook for Best Practices
54:04 | Staying Connected
* Breaks
★ If you cannot see or activate the audio player, go to: theAPprofessor.org/podcast-episode-155.html
❓ Please take the anonymous survey: theAPprofessor.org/survey
☝️ Questions & Feedback: 1-833-LION-DEN (1-833-546-6336)
✔️ Follow The A&P Professor on Twitter, Facebook, Blogger, Substack, or Instagram! @theAPprofessor
📰 Get the once-or-twice-weekly TAPP Science & Education Updates theAPprofessor.org/updates
“The classroom remains the most radical space of possibility in the academy.” (bell hooks)
Murray Jensen, HAPS President's Medal Laureate
1.5 minutes
Kevin introduces his guest, Murray Jensen, a Professor of Biology Teaching and Learning at the University of Minnesota. He highlights Murray’s research focus on teaching and learning in human anatomy and physiology, his emphasis on POGIL and cooperative learning, and his many awards, including the 2024 HAPS President’s Medal. Kevin also notes Murray’s warm reputation as a mentor and colleague, framing the conversation as both professional and deeply personal.
What is Dual Enrollment, Anyway?
9 minutes
Murray explains how dual enrollment works in Minnesota through the College in the Schools program, which currently involves 28 high schools and 1,100 students. He emphasizes the importance of professional development and the community of practice that keeps teachers connected, supported, and inspired. Kevin shares his own experiences with dual enrollment, reflecting on how it shaped his career and outlook as an educator.
Guided Inquiry, Not Guided Napping
13 minutes
This segment digs into pedagogy. Murray describes his approach to selecting teachers, focusing on passion and spark, and how he encourages them to adopt guided inquiry and cooperative group learning. He shares stories about the challenges of letting go of control in the classroom, and how productive messiness often leads to deeper learning. Kevin adds his own examples, reinforcing that guided inquiry transforms classrooms into vibrant, memorable learning spaces.
No, Not Nightly Recorded Lectures
4.5 minutes
Murray makes the case against online-only dual enrollment mode
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
In her book, Teaching to Transgress,
the cultural critic andauthor, bell hooks stated,
"the classroom remains the mostradical space of possibility in the
academy. ".
Welcome to The A&P Professor.
A few minutes to focus on teaching humananatomy and physiology with a veteran
(00:23):
educator and teaching mentor,your host, Kevin Patton.
In episode 155,
Murray Jensen joins us for a chatabout dual enrollment in A&P.
(00:48):
My guest for thisepisode is Murray Jensen,
who's a Professor of Biology Teachingand Learning at the University of
Minnesota. Besides teaching,
he does research that's focused onteaching and learning in human anatomy and
physiology,
with a special emphasis on cooperativegroup learning and on process
oriented guided inquiry learning,
(01:11):
better known as POGIL and onCooperative Group Learning.
Dr. Jensen's work has been recognizedwith some impressive honors over the
years. Among other awards,
he received the 2024 President'sMedal from the Human Anatomy and
Physiology Society, which Imentioned in a previous episode.
(01:33):
I've known Murray for decades andusually see him in person at least once a
year.
He's widely known around anatomyand physiology faculty as being a
supportive and helpful mentor,
but also as a lifelong studentof A&P teaching and learning
himself-continually helpingus all to be better,
(01:55):
even as he continues his own learning.
His enthusiastic and friendlyapproach is infectious.
Just mention his nameto anyone who knows him,
and you'll get an immediatesmile. Prove me wrong.
All of that reflects what you'llhear in today's conversation,
(02:16):
a deep commitment to innovative teachingand to the communities of practice
that support both teachers and students.
Let's kick off with what dualenrollment looks like in the real world
and why Minnesota is buzzing.Yeah, I'm here with Murray Jensen.
(02:37):
Hi Murray.
Hey, Kevin.
How's it going up there in Minnesotathese days in a world of A&P teaching.
Well, like everybody else, we'reramping up, getting ready for fall,
so I'm working on my syllabus,getting my course packet together,
doing the usual stuff that marksthe beginning of the semester.
We're here to talk about dual enrollment,
which is one of a whole bunchof areas that you're deeply
(03:02):
involved in A&P education.
You have lots of differentprojects going on,
and one of the big ones isof course, dual enrollment.
So what is your interaction with theworld of dual enrollment right now?
Well, sure. I should start bysaying I'm a longtime NABT member,
National Association of Biology Teachers.
(03:22):
I was a high school biologyteacher right out of college.
Then I went back to graduate school,and now I'm an A&P professor,
but my connections with thedual enrollment world goes all the way back to when
I was a new high school teacher,but at the University of Minnesota.
I've been doing dualenrollment for 14 years now,
(03:43):
and our specific program iscalled College in the Schools.
There's lots of different names,but they go under the names,
dual enrollment or concurrentenrollment. For the past 14 years,
I've been working with local high schools,
and currently I have about 28 highschools and about 1100 students a
year going through our program.
(04:03):
Wow. 1100 students. That is amazing.
I can't imagine coordinating somethingthat involves that many people. I mean,
even if we leave the coordination ofstudents up to the local teachers,
that's still a lot ofcoordination in that.
So hats off to you for keepingthat going for so long,
and I actually dipped my toe into thata little bit into your world a little
(04:27):
bit. How long ago was that?Was like a year or so ago.
You invited me to one of your meetings,your virtual meetings up there,
and I got to chat withsome of those folks.
We have professional development days,and I believe that was a few years ago,
and we were virtual.We did a Zoom meeting,
but the professional developmentis a key part of this program.
I see the teachers face-to-face at theUniversity of Minnesota three times a
(04:51):
year, so they have to come to theUniversity of Minnesota in the fall,
then again the spring, and thenwe have summer workshops as well.
So that keeps us on our toes, and we'veworked with each other now so long,
we're good friends.
And so these workshops are veryenjoyable and I'm able to bring in
university professors,physiology professors,
(05:14):
epidemiology, all sortsof different people.
And so we do updates and then wealso just talk about our classes,
talk about headaches andwhat we can do differently.
So this is a true learningcommunity. This is,
what is it called? Community of practice.That's it. Community of practice.
And they lean on each other quite a bit.
They send emails to each other ifthey're looking for a lab or if they're
(05:37):
looking for a new activity. Sothis group is very, very unique.
I should add in there at a high school,
the anatomy and physiology professor,and my class is called Human Physiology.
They're typically the only person intheir building that does anything with
human physiology,
and so they reach out by emailand by phone calls and to
(06:00):
others within our group for help. Andso that creates a pretty tight group.
And so it's something I really enjoy,
and the network between 'em is very,
very key to the success of the program.
Boy, it sounds like there'sa pretty strong network.
I'd love to be part of a community ofpractice like that. That is so cool.
(06:21):
I guess HAPS gets kind of close,but not as deep as you guys go.
Yeah, the emails fly, I'll tell youthat. And they email each other far more.
And I tell 'em as a collegeprofessor, my students are different.
My students are 18, 24 years old,
their students are 15 to 18 years old,
(06:42):
so there's going to be questions thatyou're better off asking another high
school instructor than asking me.
And so they've developed friendshipsand they've got kind their own groups.
And I'm not a part of allthe communication, but that's fine. That's just fine.
But I send out email blastsand we go back and forth,
but most of the communication is betweentwo or three individuals within the
(07:06):
group. And like I said before, they'refriends. They're all good friends,
and they're very comfortablecomplaining to each other,
complaining about theprincipal, complaining about, but they share headaches.
They all can relate to each other.
Right, right. Yeah, I can see that.Before we get too much further along,
I just want to clarify if anybody wouldhave too much difficulty understanding
(07:28):
the concept of dual enrollment,
but I guess there are differentflavors of dual enrollment and so on.
So in your mind, what is dual enrollmentand are there different flavors of it,
or am I looking at things wrong?
Yes, but in essence,here's the way it works.
So I have my class at theUniversity of Minnesota.
It's called Biology 1015 Human Physiology,
(07:51):
and there's students at the U of M whoenroll in my course and take my course,
just like any college course.
And then once it's offered at theUniversity of Minnesota through
a dual enrollment program,
you can also offer that samecourse at a high school.
And at the high school,
students will enroll inessence in two courses.
(08:15):
One is the college course, and thesecond is the high school course,
and that's where you get dualenrollment or concurrent enrollment.
And so in essence, they'retaking two courses at once,
the high school and a college course.
Some students actually are inthe room and take it just for the
high school credit. They don'twant the college pressure.
(08:37):
I guess that's not many that do that,
but most of the studentstake both courses at once,
and then if they'll fulfillthe requirements of the course,
they get credit at both theUniversity of Minnesota and at their
high school for graduation.And so this is where we get the notion of
incoming freshmen,
(08:58):
18 year olds who are just arriving atthe University of Minnesota right now,
and they already have 20credits or they might have 30
credits. It's just amazing. A lot ofstudents now graduate in three years,
which is, I'm notnecessarily in favor of that.
I don't like the idea of gettingpushed through your college experience,
(09:20):
but through things like dual enrollmentand then the other big player is the
Advanced Placement program,
students are able to accumulate creditswhile they're in high school that
speed up the college process.
It's a course that hasto be offered at the U,
and then it's also offeredat the high school.
And I am in charge of quality control,
(09:42):
and I oversee all the teachers andmake sure that it's the same rigor.
And that's the word.
Is it the same class on both thecollege campus and in the high
school?
But I meet with the teachers and I'min charge of making sure they're up to
speed.
I actually was in dual enrollmentwhen I was in high school.
We didn't call it that, but it'spretty much exactly the model you have,
(10:06):
except I'm not positive about whathappened on the teacher's end of
things. I don't know how often theymet. I know they did meet with, well,
I guess it's the same thing here, peoplein their department at the university.
And I came out of high school with24 credits, if I remember right.
Okay, so did you graduatein three and a half years?
(10:26):
No, no. I got...
I mean...that was back in the day whenthere were a lot more government grants
and scholarships available. I mean, itwas an expensive college. It was at St.
Louis University, which is a Jesuitschool. They had pretty hefty tuition,
but I had that extra help,and it went for four years.
It wasn't based on how manycredits you needed. It was four ...
(10:49):
Four years. You're in.
...Four year program.
And so what I used thatextra time for was to do my
education classes. And Iused that extra semester.
I had to do my student teaching,
so I came out doing high schoolbiology teaching as well.
So you and I kind ofparalleled each other,
except I had a little in-between timebetween graduation and my first teaching
(11:13):
job where I was an apprentice lion tamer.
But that was just kind of anextension of student teaching.
...Apprentice lion tamer?
...Apprentice lion tamer, yeah.But anyway, other than that,
it was the same.
And that was a great experiencebeing a high school biology teacher.
Okay, we know the what.
Now let's get into how theyteach it without defaulting
(11:37):
to 111 slides. That's when we come back.
We are going to pause for a quick reset,
close your eyes and think,well, wait, wait, wait.
Don't close your eyes if you're drivingright now or operating any kind of
machinery or crossing thestreet or shopping vegetables.
(12:02):
You know what? Let's just forget that.
Just keep your eyes openand think of two words that
describe your students this term.
One word should be about energy,
and the other word should be about habits.
Once you have your two words,
say them out loud to kind of help lock'em into your awareness for the moment
(12:26):
or jot them down. If you'reable to do that. Now,
ask yourself what onetiny tweak could improve
both. Hit the pause button now ifyou need another minute or two,
and then hold that idea and move onto the next segment of this episode.
(12:46):
We're about to talk aboutpedagogy that makes it all happen.
Well, I'm back with Murray Jensen,
and just a moment he'sgoing to reveal his secret
sauce. I got a question for you.
Are you involved in choosing whichof the teachers at that school are
(13:08):
qualified?
Yeah, they got to get through me,
and they laugh at that onebecause I drill 'em pretty hard in
terms of the interview process,especially in the early days.
And I'm getting to be asoftie now, I admit that.
But the deal with who gets toteach in this program is a big
(13:29):
deal because I only taketeachers who are expert
educators,
and the thing I look formost is a gleam in the eye,
somebody who is excited to be inthe classroom and still has a spark.
There's a lot of teachers outthere who are just counting days to
retirement, and it's like,Nope, nope. I don't want them.
(13:52):
I want somebody who actually takeson the classroom every day as a, wow,
this is a cool opportunityto interact with smart 16,
18 year olds and do coolstuff with human physiology.
That's the most important qualificationI have for getting in the program.
But my program is quite different thanmost in that we use guided inquiry and
(14:15):
cooperative quizzes and wedo pedagogy that's quite
different than most collegeclassrooms. I really encourage,
don't lecture, don't use PowerPoint.
It's a challenge to teach in thatclassroom, but the teachers love it.
They all say it's thebest class of the day.
Considering that you're really pushingthem to use some contemporary cutting
(14:38):
edge pedagogy,
do people that are new toteaching in your program,
do they push back a little bit onthat or do they see that as a great
opportunity to learn anew way of doing things?
That's the interview process. In theinterview process, it's just like,
are you open to new ways of teaching?
(14:58):
And I'll give you acouple of stories here.
I've had teachers who have beentraditional teachers for 10 years,
and then they joined our program.And I look at 'em and I say,
this is going to change theway you operate your classroom.
And if they kind of lookat me funny and smile, say,
this sounds fun, that's a good sign.
(15:21):
And then another part of it iswe send them to POGIL workshops.
The POGIL workshops, P-O-G-I-L, processoriented guided inquiry learning.
The POGIL workshops are excellent.
They have three day in-person workshopswhere you earn the basics of group
learning and guided inquiry.
And with that foundationwe can build and build,
(15:43):
but it takes two or threeyears to get into the groove of
making this a naturalway to run your class.
It's just too easy to turn onPowerPoint for some teachers.
It's just too easy to go back.But now they know what I want.
I want conversation. I want arguments.
I want discussions in theclassroom that are heated about
(16:07):
homeostasis or control systems and things.
But it's a fun way to teachafter you get used to.
It.
I can imagine that it really does lighta fire under some teachers that weren't
used to that or maybe didn't know alot about how to even get started doing
that.
So this is really improvingeducation all around,
(16:29):
not just the course,
your course that's affectedbecause they're going to bring that into their other
courses, like you mentioned.
Yeah, and the teachersthat have in the past,
I don't know the the current status of it,
but in the past when 14years ago they were asked to
run workshops at their high schools,we had a few of them were saying, Hey,
(16:51):
can you run the workshop so that theother high school teachers can kind of see
how this guided inquirystuff works? And so yeah,
we've got a history of lighting afire within the whole school in some
cases.
Oh man. That is awesome. Soonce people get into this,
do you ever have any of 'em that getinto that and decide that this dual
(17:13):
enrollment thing isn't for them eitherbecause of the dual enrollment aspect,
something about that or this partof it that is the guided inquiry and
the various kinds of pedagogythat you're pushing them to use?
That's a good one. I havea range. I have a range,
and I know these people very well,
and I know that some of 'emjust lightin' the world on fire,
(17:37):
and I think you should have'em on your podcast actually.
They're just that good, but they'refun to talk to and it's just like,
how do you do what you do?But I also have others that
they've been teaching for 15,
20 years and now they jumped in becauseI thought we could make a change.
And I know they're struggling.I know they're struggling,
but their students are still doing fine.
(18:00):
But I know it's not aseasy for some as others.
And a big deal withguided inquiry is control.
You got to be willing to give up thecontrol of your classroom and let the
students talk to each other.
And there's a lot of instructors outthere who just can't handle giving
up the microphone and letting students......and when students are talking to
(18:21):
each other, it's often messy.
It takes a while for them to figureout a concept and to listen to students
figure things out is enjoyablefor all of us who are used to it.
But for many traditional teachers, theywant to jump in and say, no, no, no.
This is how muscles work. This is howenergy is used to within a muscle.
They want to correct students quickly,but it's a messy, messy classroom.
(18:46):
And that's what I like. And that'swhat guided inquiry teachers,
the ones who do it well, they just wait.
They will let students figure thingsout for themselves as opposed to
jumping in.
But I know I still haveteachers that just can't let it
ride. They got to jump inand tell students answers.
(19:07):
So imagine that some arebetter teachers than others.
Imagine that!
Whenever I've tried and implementedthings that involved letting
go and having the studentsreally run their own
show in learning, boy,
that brings back all those memories ofthose early days of trying that where
(19:28):
I just felt like somebody wasgoing to catch me not doing my job.
Number one. Yeah, go ahead.
Jim. And I got to tell you,it's in the interview process.
It's just like you are goingto have some miserable days.
You are going to have daysthat just, why am I doing this?
(19:50):
And there's a faith thing. It'sjust like, trust me, after a while,
this is going to go better. But thefirst year is just ridiculously hard.
I don't know if you know thedifferent types of inquiry, but man,
when I was just starting as professor,I started something called open inquiry,
which I'll just say it doesn'twork with entry level students.
(20:15):
Open inquiry doesn't work.You need some guidance.
But the open inquiry stuff I did, itwas just like they learned nothing.
And I was frustrated and Iwas just like, oh my gosh.
But with experience, you dial in.
It's just like this question workstoday. That question doesn't work,
but you know what clues,what questions to ask,
(20:38):
what buttons to push togenerate the conversation,
and that's always the goal.What do I do to get students talking?
You got to have a topic.
You got to have some questions thatget 'em to think and to talk. But yeah,
you are going to have somemiserable days when you start.
And with time though, you dial it in.
(20:59):
We've got our set ofactivities that we use,
and it's different in differentclassrooms. It's just like,
this works with my students. Well, itdidn't work with mine. That's fine.
Every classroom is different. Butyeah, you bring up a good point.
When you first start this stuff,it's hard and you'll have bad days.
But what I tell 'em, it's justlike your paycheck's the same,
(21:22):
and it's fine with me.
If you have a bad day and you can sendan email to somebody and just say,
what the heck happened here? This thingfell apart. But that's just teaching.
That's running a classroom.
When you talk about students reallygetting in there and debating things
and really getting excited about it,
reminded me of a situation Ihad in a lab class where this
(21:46):
class was, I mean, thisgroup of students was just,
they interacted really,really well from the get go.
So I was very fortunate to get that,
but they really got into that sortof friendly competition to get to the
right answer, or maybethere's several right answers,
and then argue about that we weredoing something which would otherwise
(22:10):
be, I think, kind of boring, I guess.And we were learning histology.
I was throwing up at the end of the classafter they were done working in small
groups,
we had a flash quiz that I putup on the board with slides.
They had clickers, so they wereclicking, which is the correct answer,
and they were, oh my gosh, theywere yelling at each other.
(22:30):
I felt like I was at a professionalwrestling match or something.
And that's fun, right?
That's a class you remember as opposedto the class that just sat there and
stared at you. Exactly.
Yeah. And so I was great. Well,
I invited my dean in who actuallywas a former A&P teacher,
invited my dean in to do myevaluation in that course. I thought,
(22:53):
man, this is my best course.And I mean, this is great.
And they're doing exactly.And I thought, oh,
I hope they don't fall flat ontheir face this one day or whatever.
But they didn't. They were in great form.And then afterward, my dean is like,
I thought that class wasgoing to get out of control.
I never seen anything like that. AndI'm like, yes, yes, you're right.
(23:15):
That's exactly right. Isn't that great?
Here's a strange phrase, but theteachers I work with know it.
I like it when it's out of control.
As long as they're using thelanguage of the discipline,
if they're using words that you and Iknow and every in that every Anat-Fiz
teacher knows,
as long as they're talking abouttopics in human physiology,
(23:39):
I like out of control.
And especially when you have smartstudents arguing with each other,
and that's a key. They got to be smart.
They've got to know how to engagein an argument, keep it civil,
and that's a job of a high schoolteacher. Keep it civil, keep it civil,
respect one another, be ableto win, be able to lose,
(24:00):
be able to admit when you'rewrong, but in the end,
you're going to have a betterunderstanding of nature. In the end,
you're going to have a betterunderstanding of human physiology.
And that's the goal.
Right? Yeah. Well, and even justthe nature of science is like that.
Is that debate. It's an.
Argument. It's an argument,yeah. But yeah, it's good stuff.
(24:21):
It is just so fun when you havesmart young students who are able to
have a conversation,but on the other side,
and some classes are just duds,
and I get emails from someteachers. It's like, man,
this year these students are justquiet. And COVID did a number on it.
(24:41):
It's just like, oh my gosh. Talkingwith them, it's just like after COVID,
the students coming back tryingto get 'em back to normal,
back to face-to-facecommunication, and it took a hit,
took a real hit.
I guess that having that communityof practice that you talked about
was a great thing under those conditionsso that they could communicate that
(25:05):
with each other and sort of leanon each other as they went through
that.
Yeah, I gave 'em a lot of freedom there.
It's just do the best youcan with what you have.
And we had teachers in theparking lot handing out hearts and
brains and to be sent home,and the parents were like,
what the heck is going on here? Kitchentable is now a dissection table.
(25:30):
But yeah, I'm so happy.
Well, it looks like thesecret sauce is less podium,
more conversation, and maybe add to that,
that out of control is the best kindof control when it comes to those
conversations.
(25:52):
Get ready to hit pause again because we'regoing to use this brain break to take
90 seconds and defineguided inquiry in your own
words, just your own simplewords, no jargon. Now,
add one thing after you'vegot a quick definition,
that thing is how you'll try it this week.
(26:14):
So we need a definition and howyou're going to try it this week.
Now without closing your eyes, becauseclosing your eyes may not be safe.
Try to picture the moment you'lllet the class get productively
messy. That's the move we're goingto be looking at in the next segment.
(26:37):
We're back with more conversationwith Murray Jensen about his
experiences of dual enrollment.
And here's another thing just toknow about me and the program.
We get asked this once in a while.
I do not allow online distance learning.
It's got to be face-to-face.That's just who I am.
(26:58):
Some people can run online classrooms,
and we should probablytalk about this too,
a different flavor of dual enrollment.
We've been talking about what my programis at the University of Minnesota,
but there's a lot of schoolsthat will have a dual enrollment,
and the lectures from thecolleges are recorded,
(27:18):
and students at night just go homeand just watch the lecture that was
given at the college that day.
And then in the classroom,
the teachers are basically employed asteaching assistants to go over problems.
And that model exists. Thatmodel definitely does exist,
but I don't think it's optimal.
(27:39):
I don't want students watchingrecorded lectures. They can do TikTok,
they can do YouTube on their own,
but having to sit there and watchsomebody go through PowerPoint slides,
oh my goodness,
that not sound like anenjoyable learning experience.
I don't think as a student,
I could have made it veryfar in a program like that.
(28:01):
I should mention this. This is kind ofthe politics of concurrent enrollment,
dual enrollment, justpoliticians. Well, the schools,
the high schools pay the tuition for the
university,
so there's money flow from thehigh schools to the University of
Minnesota, and that moneyflow is political, of course.
(28:23):
And politicians like thisprogram because you can speed
up the clock,
you can get students graduatingat the University of Minnesota
in three years or eventwo and a half years
and parents like that too.
I'm only going to pay threeyears of tuition and not four.
(28:44):
So there's kind of a lot offinancial stuff involved in this,
but with the teachers I work withand myself included, it's just like,
oh my gosh,
this notion of hurry up and graduateis not healthy for a lot of kids.
Their maturity just isn'tready for the big world yet. So
a 20-year-old who's maybesuper smart in engineering just
(29:08):
might not be ready to go out and havetheir own apartment in a different city,
but a lot of pushing. But I try to,
what we do with our programis just like, okay, yeah,
there is college credit,
but the most important thing here ishelping students make up their minds of,
do I want to pursue a career in STEM?
(29:30):
Do I want to pursue acareer in healthcare?
And the answer "no" is just fine with me.
If a kid is 17,
18 and thinking they're having to be amedical because mom and dad are pushing
and they look at this materialand just get turned off,
help 'em make a valid decision. It'sjust like this world is not for me.
(29:51):
But yeah, there's a lot of pushing.It's just hurry up and graduate.
And if you take 12 credits yoursenior year of high school,
you might be able to get through theuniversity in two and a half years.
And I don't think that'shealthy. That's my opinion. Yeah,
the politicians love itbecause it's less money,
less time at the publiclyfunded universities.
(30:14):
Yeah, I get that.
But I agree with you that part of theeducation that I think students get at
both high school and college level ismore than just what's going on in their
classes anyway.
So getting them out of there quicker is,
I think it's cheating them of additionalexperience that they're going to have
(30:34):
with each other and with themselves.
Helping 'em grow up.
There's a lot more to growing up thanlearning the core concepts of human
physiology.
Learning to have a good conversationat one in the morning in your dorm room
with some good friends andjust to learn, hang out.
Those are skills that you typically don'tlearn by just keeping your nose in a
(30:58):
book.
Exactly. Exactly. Let's takeanother quick brain break,
and then we'll be back withmore from Murray Jensen.
For this brain break,
we're going to try and come upwith three signals that we could
see in a course that tells usthat it's rigorous without being
(31:19):
rigid. Get it? Rigor without rigidity.
Here are a couple of examples ofsigns to kind of get your thinking
started. For example,
one sign is when studentsask better questions,
another sign is when theyargue with the evidence,
another sign is theyrevise and refine their
(31:43):
ideas faster. Okay,
so try to come up withthree, then ask yourself,
do I see any of thesesignals in my course?
Does this usually changeas the course progresses?
Discuss. ...well, I guesswith yourself, or okay,
(32:05):
with a friend,-because you're probablyhaving a podcast listening party, right?!
We're back with Murray Jensen,
and I want to talk about rigor.When I was still in the
classroom,
every once in a while somebody wouldmention dual enrollment in some context,
maybe they were discussing aparticular student and they said, well,
(32:28):
did they have biology before theycame into A&P? And well, yeah,
but it was dual enrollment and
that "but" always struck mebecause had a really good dual
enrollment experience myself,
I'm thinking that they're thinkingof this as less. And, I mean,
I've seen eyes roll when theterm dual enrollment comes up.
(32:50):
I don't know if that's stillas big a deal as it used to be,
but it seemed like a lot of my colleagueswho never had any experience of dual
enrollment have this preconceptionthat it's "less than" in some
way. In my experience,
not only as a student in dual enrollment,
but my experience with peoplelike you who interact with dual
(33:13):
enrollment programs,tells me the opposite.
It's actually a really, really goodexperience. Have you seen that at all,
or is that just my little pocket ofthe universe? And if you have seen it,
is that still around? Is that an issue?
Well, with skeptics, professors whoare skeptics, I'm pretty honest,
(33:35):
just to say there's going to be a range.
There's going to be a range ofquality and a range of rigor.
And if you take a really high achieving
classroom in a high school,
they're often working harderand students are doing better
and better work than what youcan find inn a lot of colleges.
(33:56):
I'm totally convinced that some ofmy toughest College-in-the-School's
teachers, their classesare tougher than mine.
And there's reasons for that.And I'm just fine with that.
My students are different than theirstudents. Their students are just top,
top of the line, and thoseteachers know how to push 'em,
(34:16):
so their exams are tougher thanmy exams. I'm just fine with that.
They're all supposed to be the same.That's the quality control part,
but "gasp," they're not.
Some of the schools are probablya little bit easier than me,
and some are tougher thanme, but by and large,
the people I'm with just kindof accept it as a fact now. And
(34:37):
I should probably explain theUniversity of Minnesota's College of
Biology, freshmen biology class.
We have designed our freshmenbiology class to kind of just say,
we expect you to haveadvanced placement biology.
We expect you to have rigoroushigh school biology. But yeah,
that's what we expect. Now, here'syour freshman biology class.
(35:01):
It's called Foundations,
and it's massive and it's anamazingly difficult class,
and students come out ofthere just like, whoa.
They're on their way to being prettyhigh-end biologists. But yeah,
many of my students go into thatprogram. When I say my students,
they took high school dualenrollment, and they're well equipped.
(35:22):
They're well equipped. Yeah.
I cannot deny the fact thatthere's going to be a range.
There's dual enrollment programs thatprobably are not worth their salt.
I don't want to be one of'em. The teachers I work with,
they know what I require, sothere's no mixed messages there.
But yeah, I've heard someprograms that are basically just,
(35:44):
they're in it for the money. Theschools need it for the money,
and the teachers are just callingit in. Of course, that exists.
That's human nature, but I reallydon't want it in my program.
My program's got a good reputationand I work hard to keep it.
How did you step into this? I mean,
how did you get into the dualenrollment end of things?
(36:06):
The college and the schools, I guess,
has been at the universityfor about 30 years,
and my boss in 15,
16 years ago said, doyou know Susan Henderson?
And it's just like, oh, I kind ofknow that name. And Susan Henderson
(36:27):
made an appointment to come seeme in my office and Susan says,
have you ever heard of dual enrollment?
And she was a nice person andshe was explaining the program,
and it's just like, man, this ismeant for me. I love high schools.
I really missed high school teaching.
Part of the secret sauce of my programis I was a high school teacher.
(36:47):
I know what the schools are like.I know the chaos of the classroom.
I know the chaos of the cafeterias.
I know the problems youhave with principals. And so when teachers talk to me,
I can smile and say, yep,done that. Been there.
And most dual enrollment courseleads the college professors.
They were not high school teachers,
(37:07):
so they don't have that same knowledgeand background that you and I have.
We know what it's like. Yeah, there'sa range there. There's a range there.
But it goes back to a person named SusanHenderson making an appointment and
just saying, would you like to dothis? And it's just like, yeah,
this sounds great.
Boy, that sounds like you. Like, yeah,
(37:29):
I'll try that. I think I can do that.
Are there misunderstandingsthat maybe parents have
or maybe the teachers in their localschools have about dual enrollment?
Oh, absolutely. And I have my syllabus up.
I have my syllabus up right now,
(37:50):
and I've got some language thatI make sure all the teachers send
out to the parents, yougot to listen to this.
It's just like Bio 1015is a freshman-level
introduction to human physiology.
Biology 1015 is notthe first semester of a
two-semester A&P course.
(38:12):
Bio 1015 is not a substitutefor a higher-level
anatomy and physiology course.
We have parents that kind ofthink that after this class,
they're going to go to medschool. It's just like, no, no.
And knowing what you'renot communicating, they ...
They can skip med school.
What?
They can skip med schoolafter taking your course!
(38:37):
It's just misconceptions about whatit takes to get into healthcare.
And we have medical doctorsand nurses and research.
The kids who have gone through ourprogram are now, it's been 15 years, 14,
15 years,
and we've been interviewingsome of 'em and kind of like,
what did we do that influenced yourdecisions and what have we done?
(39:01):
And we're still working at that.
That's kind of the research project I'mworking on is what's the best topics and
what's the best teachingmethods. But they all talk about,
it's just like that class helped mefigure out that I wanted to go into
healthcare. This is atopic I really enjoy.
Let's take another quick brain break.
(39:25):
In this break, I'm asking you tothink of a high school teacher that
you know or are acquainted with, orwho you could introduce yourself to,
who could teach you something aboutclassroom management or motivation.
What would you ask them over a cup of tea?
(39:46):
Write out that question when you get achance or make a voice note for yourself
right now. Okay.
That's going to be thecore of your next outgoing
email.
Have you ever had a momentwhere you thought to yourself,
(40:08):
yes, this is why dual enrollment matters.
This is why I do what I do.
I visit the high schools.That's another part of this,
and I visit the high schools. Andwhen I do that, I talk with students,
I talk with teachers,
and I really have a big heart for
(40:29):
education. Heart and head,
and I use 'em both inteaching and learning.
But when I see the job of highschool teachers, it's just like,
oh my gosh,
that is such a cool world-tobe a part of kids' lives and to
have that much impact on a kid.
And a kid looks at the teacherkind of as a science nerd,
(40:51):
but it's still five daysa week. They're there.
They're role models andit's just like, oh my gosh,
what a cool thing to do with your life.
And then to give them tools.And I write a lot of curriculum.
It's primarily me that writes theactivities and then they tweak 'em.
But it's just like I write a lot andthey use 'em, they use the activities,
(41:16):
and it's just like, huh, thisis a pretty good formula.
This is really a good formula.
I provide them with some structureand some teaching methodologies,
and then I see them put it intoplace and it's just like, yep,
this is a good thing to be doing.
It's given me a good feelingjust listening to what your experience has been and
(41:38):
well, and like I say, I sat in onthat zoom meeting a while back,
and it was really fun to listen tothe interaction between different
instructors that are in the program andthem reflecting what's going on in their
programs.
Is there anything else about dualenrollment programs that you think that
(41:58):
the rest of us teaching anatomy andphysiology at the college level or even at
the high school level,
things that we might not know aboutit that we ought to think about?
Sure. Well, there,
I think the first one is respect.
The high school teachers respectthe high school teachers.
It's just like they are theexperts in teaching and learning,
(42:20):
and they are typically betterat it than college professors.
They spend more time in the classroom.
They understand kids morethan we understand kids.
We understand their topics,our physiology, our anatomy,
but they understand kids betterand so respect that knowledge and
help them achieve goals. But man,
(42:42):
looking down your nose at high schoolteachers, that [beep]s me off, sorry.
I used probably a bad wordthere, but I've seen that.
I have seen that where it's dualenrollment programs where the
college professors justtreat their teachers poorly.
It shows it's just like,well, I've got to do,
(43:04):
my principal says I have to dothis. It's a part of my assignment,
but my goodness, I want it to be thebest part of the day. It's just like,
I love doing this as opposedto I have to do this.
And there's college professorsthat have that feeling that, oh,
I've been assigned to work withthe high schools and it's a chore.
(43:25):
It shouldn't be a chore. And if it is,
get out of it because the kids figuredthat out too. It's just like, oh,
they're just going through the motionshere. So there's got to be a love of it.
And I should say that ideally thereshould be a love of it, and that's me.
This is something I'm trulypassionate about. And let's see here.
(43:46):
That's probably the big one,
is the relationship between the courseprofessor at the university and the high
school teachers. There'sgot to be respect there,
in my opinion. And if there's not,
get out of there and then the moneything is just tainting the whole system.
It's just like there's a lot ofcolleges now that are hurting for
(44:07):
students. They just don't have the numbersof students that they used to have.
And so the administrators are lookingat dual enrollment as a way to beef up
their tuition revenue.And then you end up again,
just forcing the program, oh, we'reassigning you the high school students,
and there's high school kidswho are just really motivated to
(44:31):
become nurses, really motivated tobecome healthcare professionals,
and they'll tolerate bad classes.
They'll tolerate watching anhour of lecture a night that's
been recorded at the local college,but my goodness, do better,
do better.
Do you think that theadministrators who are pushing this,
(44:54):
whether it be for the monetarybenefits to the school or
the program or whatever,
do you think they eventually get to apoint where they have a motivation to do a
good job for the students and toreally make it a high quality program?
Or do you think there area lot of programs out there that really just stay at
that level of
(45:16):
this is a money maker andthat's the beginning and end of what we're doing here?
Yeah.
We had a meeting this past year wherewe sat down with a couple of high school
teachers, a couple communitycollege coordinators,
and I was kind of surprisedwith a lack of passion.
I shouldn't say that probably,but it's just like, boy,
this sounds like a mechanical program,
(45:39):
but I would like to seemore spark in the eye.
And that's fine. It's just like,this is my job. I do my job,
I do my job well, but then Igo home and I take it with me.
I'm thinking about the teachers all thetime and I'm thinking about the kids and
new curriculum ideas,
and you can't expect everybodyto have that level of passion.
(46:01):
And it doesn't meanthey're not good at it.
It just means that it's notthe center of their life.
And for me,
I've got two things that I do.It's community colleges and high schools.
That's the world that I work with.
I think there's increasing pressure onschool administrators to get the budget
balanced, and this isjust another revenue flow,
(46:23):
and I'm just going to say that's a flag.It doesn't mean they don't do it well.
It just means there's pressure,
and that pressure is going to meanthey're going to be just getting pushed to
put students in the seatand getting more revenue in,
and we'll see where it goes.I am not an administrator.
I'm a professor and my administratorin the college and the schools
(46:47):
program, the people I'veworked in has been great.
They tell me the financial side of things,
and I am a big revenuegenerator for that program.
I got 1100 students, a thousandstudents, 1100 students.
That's a lot of tuitiondollars. And they treat me well.
They treat me very well. And whenI say this teacher at this school,
(47:11):
it's like, no, I don't want them in here.
They don't have what it takes to bein my program. They don't say, well,
you've got to take like,okay, it's your decision.
And so they give me autonomyand I appreciate that. But yeah,
I get the feeling that sometimes kindof a forced marriage, it's just like,
(47:31):
you will take this school because theyhave a hundred students that are willing
to pay tuition to take this class.That's not a good relationship.
Yeah, I can imagine that. Thatwould not work out very well. Hey,
let's take a quick breakand when we come back,
we'll wrap up our chat with MurrayJensen as we talk about dual
enrollment.
(47:55):
Next time you have a fewminutes at your desk,
open your next A&P slide deck.
Then remove five slidesthat don't spark discussion.
Replace them with two prompts that force
partner talk,
(48:17):
something like argue forcarbaminohemoglobin's
importance in maintaining life. Or,
predict what fails ifcarbaminohemoglobin fails. Okay.
Those are just examples ...andopportunities for me to say one of
the terms that I'd love to say,
longtime listeners know that-carbaminohemoglobin. Okay,
(48:42):
then save that revised slide deckwhere you've put those prompts,
after removing some otherslides that aren't going to be
sparking any discussion. Sowith that saved slide deck,
use it in your coursewhen it comes up. Come on.
Just try it and thentell us what happened.
(49:06):
Well, Murray,
are there any other big things cookingin the world of dual enrollment in A&P?
Looking down the road?
I'm thinking of trying to write asmall grant that brings together
for anatomy and physiology,dual enrollment, bring in some community colleges,
bring in some administrators,bring in some high school teachers,
(49:28):
and come up with a best practicesdocument. It's kind of like
what can we produce? Whatsort of policy document?
I don't know if the word policyfits there, but best practices.
And so as dual enrollmentgrows and it is growing,
this is doing nothing but growing.
(49:49):
Help, administrators, teachers,and professors out with, okay,
what can we do here
to help students get a good learningexperience? And the students are the key.
It's all about the students.I work with the teachers,
but the teachers work with the students,
and student learning has got tobe the goal. It's not the revenue.
(50:10):
It's not the money. Youneed that, of course,
but it's just like what happensin this program so as to
optimize student learningand student development.
But that's a project down the road.
I got a few other to get done first,
but that's a topic I'm thinking aboutis trying to develop a best practices
(50:32):
document for dual enrollmentanatomy and physiology.
That sounds really exciting.I would like to see that.
And I guess that leads meto the question of, I mean,
do you see that as being somethingthat can also be adapted for
people teaching at the collegelevel too? Because I mean,
a lot of the things that are going towork in dual enrollment are going to work
(50:55):
in the regular on-campus classes, I think.
Well, this is a push for me. It's inhuman physiology, it's core concepts,
and I know the people in theCore Concepts research group,
and it's just like as far as curriculumis concerned, without a doubt,
introductory classes shouldfocus on core concepts,
(51:17):
and so that's an easy one.
But then the second item there ishow should the core concepts be
taught?
And I am extremely biasedin terms of guided inquiry,
cooperative group learning. Students,
having discussions using thelanguage of the discipline over,
(51:37):
"I'm going to show you27 PowerPoint slides on
energy flow."
A PowerPoint is just so... what?
It's so efficient atdispersing information,
but so inefficient atgenerating conversation.
But it's the conversation.I'm a constructivist.
(52:00):
Students learn best when they're engagedin conversations using the language of
the discipline. When I'm thinkingabout entry level courses,
that's what I think shouldbe done-over "It's just like,
here's 111 PowerPoint slides.
Any questions? Any questions?"It's boring. But yeah, that's me.
(52:22):
That's me for best practicesin entry level science.
We'll see what other people think too.
There's probably a research projectthere, but generally active learning,
and that's an overused word,
active learning wins out over PowerPoint.
I think that's a great spotto wrap things up. Murray,
I really appreciate your time and Iappreciate all the effort that's gone into
(52:45):
your program.
I'm sure there's far greaterbenefit than even you realize
with all those thousands of studentsout there now doing their thing,
and you had a hand inthat, so congratulations.
Some very,
very successful people are not in theSTEM world that have been through my
program, and I keepreminding the teachers that.
(53:06):
So it's like even if they take a toughhuman physiology class and they say,
that's not for me, that's a success.
We helped a kid make a decision. But yeah,
there's a lot of graduates of thisprogram, that's for sure. And Kevin,
I'd encourage you tomaybe in a future program,
talk to a couple of the teachers,
(53:29):
because I'm not in the day-to-day worldof what happens in the high school,
and I think your audience might enjoyhearing what happens on a day-to-day
basis in the high schools.
I know. I would love to hear that.So that's a definite yes on that,
so you and I are going to haveto work on making that happen.
(53:49):
Sounds good. You take care, Murray,
and I'm sure I'll see you aroundat the next HAPS meeting or before,
and I hope you have a successfulstart to your new semester.
Well, thanks, Kevin.
Well, here we are at the endof another adventure together.
Let's take a breath and remindourselves of the main takeaways from
(54:14):
today's chat with my friend MurrayJensen about dual enrollment in
A&P.
One big thing that stood outis the power of community.
Murray described how his programisn't just about students collecting
credits.
It's about building a networkof teachers who swap ideas,
(54:36):
support each other,
and sometimes just commiserateabout the everyday headaches of
teaching.
That sense of belonging can be justas valuable as the coursework itself.
We also heard about hisinsistence on quality.
Dual enrollment is not assome skeptics might say,
(54:58):
a watered down versionof college. In fact,
the rigor can be every bit as strongor stronger than what you'll find
in a typical college or university class.
And Murray was clearthat the right teachers,
the ones with that gleam in the eye,
are critical to making that rigor work.Another
(55:22):
important takeaway is pedagogy.
Murray champions guided inquiryand cooperative learning
instead of the usual marchthrough endless slides.
Sure, it feels messy at times,
but that kind of productivechaos is where students
(55:43):
really wrestle with concepts andlearn to think like scientists.
We also touched on the pressuresaround money and speed,
how dual enrollment is sometimesseen as just a shortcut to
shave time and tuition.
But Murray reminded us that thereal goal is student growth and
(56:07):
decision-making, not simplyhurrying them out the door.
It's about helping young people figureout who they are and where they want to
go. And speaking of growth,
I tried something new with this episode.
You probably noticed that the brainbreaks were a little more interactive than
(56:28):
usual. Instead of just resting your ears,
I asked you to do small reflectivetasks like jotting down words or
questions to see if that addsa new layer of engagement.
I'd really like to know whatyou think about that experiment.
Did it work for you? Wasit too much, too little?
(56:50):
Let me know.
You can always share your thoughtswith me by calling the podcast hotline.
That's 1 - 8 3 3 - LION - DEN, or
1
-
8
3
3
-
5
4
6
-
6
3
3
6,
or shoot me an email at
podcast@theAPprofessor.org.
(57:13):
I read and listen to every message,
and I'd love to know how you'reconnecting with these changes.
That's it for now. As always,
thanks for being part of thisteaching community with me.
I'll see you down the road.
(57:33):
The A&P Professor ishosted by Dr. Kevin Patton,
an award-winning professor and textbookauthor in human anatomy and physiology.
The A&P Professor podcast isnot responsible for coffee or
tea spilled duringenthusiastic head nodding.
Please caffeinate responsibly.
In her book, Teaching to Transgress,
the cultural critic andauthor, bell hooks stated,
"the classroom remains the mostradical space of possibility in the
academy. ".
Welcome to The A&P Professor.
A few minutes to focus on teaching humananatomy and physiology with a veteran
(00:23):
educator and teaching mentor,your host, Kevin Patton.
In episode 155,
Murray Jensen joins us for a chatabout dual enrollment in A&P.
(00:48):
My guest for thisepisode is Murray Jensen,
who's a Professor of Biology Teachingand Learning at the University of
Minnesota. Besides teaching,
he does research that's focused onteaching and learning in human anatomy and
physiology,
with a special emphasis on cooperativegroup learning and on process
oriented guided inquiry learning,
(01:11):
better known as POGIL and onCooperative Group Learning.
Dr. Jensen's work has been recognizedwith some impressive honors over the
years. Among other awards,
he received the 2024 President'sMedal from the Human Anatomy and
Physiology Society, which Imentioned in a previous episode.
(01:33):
I've known Murray for decades andusually see him in person at least once a
year.
He's widely known around anatomyand physiology faculty as being a
supportive and helpful mentor,
but also as a lifelong studentof A&P teaching and learning
himself-continually helpingus all to be better,
(01:55):
even as he continues his own learning.
His enthusiastic and friendlyapproach is infectious.
Just mention his nameto anyone who knows him,
and you'll get an immediatesmile. Prove me wrong.
All of that reflects what you'llhear in today's conversation,
(02:16):
a deep commitment to innovative teachingand to the communities of practice
that support both teachers and students.
Let's kick off with what dualenrollment looks like in the real world
and why Minnesota is buzzing.Yeah, I'm here with Murray Jensen.
(02:37):
Hi Murray.
Hey, Kevin.
How's it going up there in Minnesotathese days in a world of A&P teaching.
Well, like everybody else, we'reramping up, getting ready for fall,
so I'm working on my syllabus,getting my course packet together,
doing the usual stuff that marksthe beginning of the semester.
We're here to talk about dual enrollment,
which is one of a whole bunchof areas that you're deeply
(03:02):
involved in A&P education.
You have lots of differentprojects going on,
and one of the big ones isof course, dual enrollment.
So what is your interaction with theworld of dual enrollment right now?
Well, sure. I should start bysaying I'm a longtime NABT member,
National Association of Biology Teachers.
(03:22):
I was a high school biologyteacher right out of college.
Then I went back to graduate school,and now I'm an A&P professor,
but my connections with thedual enrollment world goes all the way back to when
I was a new high school teacher,but at the University of Minnesota.
I've been doing dualenrollment for 14 years now,
(03:43):
and our specific program iscalled College in the Schools.
There's lots of different names,but they go under the names,
dual enrollment or concurrentenrollment. For the past 14 years,
I've been working with local high schools,
and currently I have about 28 highschools and about 1100 students a
year going through our program.
(04:03):
Wow. 1100 students. That is amazing.
I can't imagine coordinating somethingthat involves that many people. I mean,
even if we leave the coordination ofstudents up to the local teachers,
that's still a lot ofcoordination in that.
So hats off to you for keepingthat going for so long,
and I actually dipped my toe into thata little bit into your world a little
(04:27):
bit. How long ago was that?Was like a year or so ago.
You invited me to one of your meetings,your virtual meetings up there,
and I got to chat withsome of those folks.
We have professional development days,and I believe that was a few years ago,
and we were virtual.We did a Zoom meeting,
but the professional developmentis a key part of this program.
I see the teachers face-to-face at theUniversity of Minnesota three times a
(04:51):
year, so they have to come to theUniversity of Minnesota in the fall,
then again the spring, and thenwe have summer workshops as well.
So that keeps us on our toes, and we'veworked with each other now so long,
we're good friends.
And so these workshops are veryenjoyable and I'm able to bring in
university professors,physiology professors,
(05:14):
epidemiology, all sortsof different people.
And so we do updates and then wealso just talk about our classes,
talk about headaches andwhat we can do differently.
So this is a true learningcommunity. This is,
what is it called? Community of practice.That's it. Community of practice.
And they lean on each other quite a bit.
They send emails to each other ifthey're looking for a lab or if they're
(05:37):
looking for a new activity. Sothis group is very, very unique.
I should add in there at a high school,
the anatomy and physiology professor,and my class is called Human Physiology.
They're typically the only person intheir building that does anything with
human physiology,
and so they reach out by emailand by phone calls and to
(06:00):
others within our group for help. Andso that creates a pretty tight group.
And so it's something I really enjoy,
and the network between 'em is very,
very key to the success of the program.
Boy, it sounds like there'sa pretty strong network.
I'd love to be part of a community ofpractice like that. That is so cool.
(06:21):
I guess HAPS gets kind of close,but not as deep as you guys go.
Yeah, the emails fly, I'll tell youthat. And they email each other far more.
And I tell 'em as a collegeprofessor, my students are different.
My students are 18, 24 years old,
their students are 15 to 18 years old,
(06:42):
so there's going to be questions thatyou're better off asking another high
school instructor than asking me.
And so they've developed friendshipsand they've got kind their own groups.
And I'm not a part of allthe communication, but that's fine. That's just fine.
But I send out email blastsand we go back and forth,
but most of the communication is betweentwo or three individuals within the
(07:06):
group. And like I said before, they'refriends. They're all good friends,
and they're very comfortablecomplaining to each other,
complaining about theprincipal, complaining about, but they share headaches.
They all can relate to each other.
Right, right. Yeah, I can see that.Before we get too much further along,
I just want to clarify if anybody wouldhave too much difficulty understanding
(07:28):
the concept of dual enrollment,
but I guess there are differentflavors of dual enrollment and so on.
So in your mind, what is dual enrollmentand are there different flavors of it,
or am I looking at things wrong?
Yes, but in essence,here's the way it works.
So I have my class at theUniversity of Minnesota.
It's called Biology 1015 Human Physiology,
(07:51):
and there's students at the U of M whoenroll in my course and take my course,
just like any college course.
And then once it's offered at theUniversity of Minnesota through
a dual enrollment program,
you can also offer that samecourse at a high school.
And at the high school,
students will enroll inessence in two courses.
(08:15):
One is the college course, and thesecond is the high school course,
and that's where you get dualenrollment or concurrent enrollment.
And so in essence, they'retaking two courses at once,
the high school and a college course.
Some students actually are inthe room and take it just for the
high school credit. They don'twant the college pressure.
(08:37):
I guess that's not many that do that,
but most of the studentstake both courses at once,
and then if they'll fulfillthe requirements of the course,
they get credit at both theUniversity of Minnesota and at their
high school for graduation.And so this is where we get the notion of
incoming freshmen,
(08:58):
18 year olds who are just arriving atthe University of Minnesota right now,
and they already have 20credits or they might have 30
credits. It's just amazing. A lot ofstudents now graduate in three years,
which is, I'm notnecessarily in favor of that.
I don't like the idea of gettingpushed through your college experience,
(09:20):
but through things like dual enrollmentand then the other big player is the
Advanced Placement program,
students are able to accumulate creditswhile they're in high school that
speed up the college process.
It's a course that hasto be offered at the U,
and then it's also offeredat the high school.
And I am in charge of quality control,
(09:42):
and I oversee all the teachers andmake sure that it's the same rigor.
And that's the word.
Is it the same class on both thecollege campus and in the high
school?
But I meet with the teachers and I'min charge of making sure they're up to
speed.
I actually was in dual enrollmentwhen I was in high school.
We didn't call it that, but it'spretty much exactly the model you have,
(10:06):
except I'm not positive about whathappened on the teacher's end of
things. I don't know how often theymet. I know they did meet with, well,
I guess it's the same thing here, peoplein their department at the university.
And I came out of high school with24 credits, if I remember right.
Okay, so did you graduatein three and a half years?
(10:26):
No, no. I got...
I mean...that was back in the day whenthere were a lot more government grants
and scholarships available. I mean, itwas an expensive college. It was at St.
Louis University, which is a Jesuitschool. They had pretty hefty tuition,
but I had that extra help,and it went for four years.
It wasn't based on how manycredits you needed. It was four ...
(10:49):
Four years. You're in.
...Four year program.
And so what I used thatextra time for was to do my
education classes. And Iused that extra semester.
I had to do my student teaching,
so I came out doing high schoolbiology teaching as well.
So you and I kind ofparalleled each other,
except I had a little in-between timebetween graduation and my first teaching
(11:13):
job where I was an apprentice lion tamer.
But that was just kind of anextension of student teaching.
...Apprentice lion tamer?
...Apprentice lion tamer, yeah.But anyway, other than that,
it was the same.
And that was a great experiencebeing a high school biology teacher.
Okay, we know the what.
Now let's get into how theyteach it without defaulting
(11:37):
to 111 slides. That's when we come back.
We are going to pause for a quick reset,
close your eyes and think,well, wait, wait, wait.
Don't close your eyes if you're drivingright now or operating any kind of
machinery or crossing thestreet or shopping vegetables.
(12:02):
You know what? Let's just forget that.
Just keep your eyes openand think of two words that
describe your students this term.
One word should be about energy,
and the other word should be about habits.
Once you have your two words,
say them out loud to kind of help lock'em into your awareness for the moment
(12:26):
or jot them down. If you'reable to do that. Now,
ask yourself what onetiny tweak could improve
both. Hit the pause button now ifyou need another minute or two,
and then hold that idea and move onto the next segment of this episode.
(12:46):
We're about to talk aboutpedagogy that makes it all happen.
Well, I'm back with Murray Jensen,
and just a moment he'sgoing to reveal his secret
sauce. I got a question for you.
Are you involved in choosing whichof the teachers at that school are
(13:08):
qualified?
Yeah, they got to get through me,
and they laugh at that onebecause I drill 'em pretty hard in
terms of the interview process,especially in the early days.
And I'm getting to be asoftie now, I admit that.
But the deal with who gets toteach in this program is a big
(13:29):
deal because I only taketeachers who are expert
educators,
and the thing I look formost is a gleam in the eye,
somebody who is excited to be inthe classroom and still has a spark.
There's a lot of teachers outthere who are just counting days to
retirement, and it's like,Nope, nope. I don't want them.
(13:52):
I want somebody who actually takeson the classroom every day as a, wow,
this is a cool opportunityto interact with smart 16,
18 year olds and do coolstuff with human physiology.
That's the most important qualificationI have for getting in the program.
But my program is quite different thanmost in that we use guided inquiry and
(14:15):
cooperative quizzes and wedo pedagogy that's quite
different than most collegeclassrooms. I really encourage,
don't lecture, don't use PowerPoint.
It's a challenge to teach in thatclassroom, but the teachers love it.
They all say it's thebest class of the day.
Considering that you're really pushingthem to use some contemporary cutting
(14:38):
edge pedagogy,
do people that are new toteaching in your program,
do they push back a little bit onthat or do they see that as a great
opportunity to learn anew way of doing things?
That's the interview process. In theinterview process, it's just like,
are you open to new ways of teaching?
(14:58):
And I'll give you acouple of stories here.
I've had teachers who have beentraditional teachers for 10 years,
and then they joined our program.And I look at 'em and I say,
this is going to change theway you operate your classroom.
And if they kind of lookat me funny and smile, say,
this sounds fun, that's a good sign.
(15:21):
And then another part of it iswe send them to POGIL workshops.
The POGIL workshops, P-O-G-I-L, processoriented guided inquiry learning.
The POGIL workshops are excellent.
They have three day in-person workshopswhere you earn the basics of group
learning and guided inquiry.
And with that foundationwe can build and build,
(15:43):
but it takes two or threeyears to get into the groove of
making this a naturalway to run your class.
It's just too easy to turn onPowerPoint for some teachers.
It's just too easy to go back.But now they know what I want.
I want conversation. I want arguments.
I want discussions in theclassroom that are heated about
(16:07):
homeostasis or control systems and things.
But it's a fun way to teachafter you get used to.
It.
I can imagine that it really does lighta fire under some teachers that weren't
used to that or maybe didn't know alot about how to even get started doing
that.
So this is really improvingeducation all around,
(16:29):
not just the course,
your course that's affectedbecause they're going to bring that into their other
courses, like you mentioned.
Yeah, and the teachersthat have in the past,
I don't know the the current status of it,
but in the past when 14years ago they were asked to
run workshops at their high schools,we had a few of them were saying, Hey,
(16:51):
can you run the workshop so that theother high school teachers can kind of see
how this guided inquirystuff works? And so yeah,
we've got a history of lighting afire within the whole school in some
cases.
Oh man. That is awesome. Soonce people get into this,
do you ever have any of 'em that getinto that and decide that this dual
(17:13):
enrollment thing isn't for them eitherbecause of the dual enrollment aspect,
something about that or this partof it that is the guided inquiry and
the various kinds of pedagogythat you're pushing them to use?
That's a good one. I havea range. I have a range,
and I know these people very well,
and I know that some of 'emjust lightin' the world on fire,
(17:37):
and I think you should have'em on your podcast actually.
They're just that good, but they'refun to talk to and it's just like,
how do you do what you do?But I also have others that
they've been teaching for 15,
20 years and now they jumped in becauseI thought we could make a change.
And I know they're struggling.I know they're struggling,
but their students are still doing fine.
(18:00):
But I know it's not aseasy for some as others.
And a big deal withguided inquiry is control.
You got to be willing to give up thecontrol of your classroom and let the
students talk to each other.
And there's a lot of instructors outthere who just can't handle giving
up the microphone and letting students......and when students are talking to
(18:21):
each other, it's often messy.
It takes a while for them to figureout a concept and to listen to students
figure things out is enjoyablefor all of us who are used to it.
But for many traditional teachers, theywant to jump in and say, no, no, no.
This is how muscles work. This is howenergy is used to within a muscle.
They want to correct students quickly,but it's a messy, messy classroom.
(18:46):
And that's what I like. And that'swhat guided inquiry teachers,
the ones who do it well, they just wait.
They will let students figure thingsout for themselves as opposed to
jumping in.
But I know I still haveteachers that just can't let it
ride. They got to jump inand tell students answers.
(19:07):
So imagine that some arebetter teachers than others.
Imagine that!
Whenever I've tried and implementedthings that involved letting
go and having the studentsreally run their own
show in learning, boy,
that brings back all those memories ofthose early days of trying that where
(19:28):
I just felt like somebody wasgoing to catch me not doing my job.
Number one. Yeah, go ahead.
Jim. And I got to tell you,it's in the interview process.
It's just like you are goingto have some miserable days.
You are going to have daysthat just, why am I doing this?
(19:50):
And there's a faith thing. It'sjust like, trust me, after a while,
this is going to go better. But thefirst year is just ridiculously hard.
I don't know if you know thedifferent types of inquiry, but man,
when I was just starting as professor,I started something called open inquiry,
which I'll just say it doesn'twork with entry level students.
(20:15):
Open inquiry doesn't work.You need some guidance.
But the open inquiry stuff I did, itwas just like they learned nothing.
And I was frustrated and Iwas just like, oh my gosh.
But with experience, you dial in.
It's just like this question workstoday. That question doesn't work,
but you know what clues,what questions to ask,
(20:38):
what buttons to push togenerate the conversation,
and that's always the goal.What do I do to get students talking?
You got to have a topic.
You got to have some questions thatget 'em to think and to talk. But yeah,
you are going to have somemiserable days when you start.
And with time though, you dial it in.
(20:59):
We've got our set ofactivities that we use,
and it's different in differentclassrooms. It's just like,
this works with my students. Well, itdidn't work with mine. That's fine.
Every classroom is different. Butyeah, you bring up a good point.
When you first start this stuff,it's hard and you'll have bad days.
But what I tell 'em, it's justlike your paycheck's the same,
(21:22):
and it's fine with me.
If you have a bad day and you can sendan email to somebody and just say,
what the heck happened here? This thingfell apart. But that's just teaching.
That's running a classroom.
When you talk about students reallygetting in there and debating things
and really getting excited about it,
reminded me of a situation Ihad in a lab class where this
(21:46):
class was, I mean, thisgroup of students was just,
they interacted really,really well from the get go.
So I was very fortunate to get that,
but they really got into that sortof friendly competition to get to the
right answer, or maybethere's several right answers,
and then argue about that we weredoing something which would otherwise
(22:10):
be, I think, kind of boring, I guess.And we were learning histology.
I was throwing up at the end of the classafter they were done working in small
groups,
we had a flash quiz that I putup on the board with slides.
They had clickers, so they wereclicking, which is the correct answer,
and they were, oh my gosh, theywere yelling at each other.
(22:30):
I felt like I was at a professionalwrestling match or something.
And that's fun, right?
That's a class you remember as opposedto the class that just sat there and
stared at you. Exactly.
Yeah. And so I was great. Well,
I invited my dean in who actuallywas a former A&P teacher,
invited my dean in to do myevaluation in that course. I thought,
(22:53):
man, this is my best course.And I mean, this is great.
And they're doing exactly.And I thought, oh,
I hope they don't fall flat ontheir face this one day or whatever.
But they didn't. They were in great form.And then afterward, my dean is like,
I thought that class wasgoing to get out of control.
I never seen anything like that. AndI'm like, yes, yes, you're right.
(23:15):
That's exactly right. Isn't that great?
Here's a strange phrase, but theteachers I work with know it.
I like it when it's out of control.
As long as they're using thelanguage of the discipline,
if they're using words that you and Iknow and every in that every Anat-Fiz
teacher knows,
as long as they're talking abouttopics in human physiology,
(23:39):
I like out of control.
And especially when you have smartstudents arguing with each other,
and that's a key. They got to be smart.
They've got to know how to engagein an argument, keep it civil,
and that's a job of a high schoolteacher. Keep it civil, keep it civil,
respect one another, be ableto win, be able to lose,
(24:00):
be able to admit when you'rewrong, but in the end,
you're going to have a betterunderstanding of nature. In the end,
you're going to have a betterunderstanding of human physiology.
And that's the goal.
Right? Yeah. Well, and even justthe nature of science is like that.
Is that debate. It's an.
Argument. It's an argument,yeah. But yeah, it's good stuff.
(24:21):
It is just so fun when you havesmart young students who are able to
have a conversation,but on the other side,
and some classes are just duds,
and I get emails from someteachers. It's like, man,
this year these students are justquiet. And COVID did a number on it.
(24:41):
It's just like, oh my gosh. Talkingwith them, it's just like after COVID,
the students coming back tryingto get 'em back to normal,
back to face-to-facecommunication, and it took a hit,
took a real hit.
I guess that having that communityof practice that you talked about
was a great thing under those conditionsso that they could communicate that
(25:05):
with each other and sort of leanon each other as they went through
that.
Yeah, I gave 'em a lot of freedom there.
It's just do the best youcan with what you have.
And we had teachers in theparking lot handing out hearts and
brains and to be sent home,and the parents were like,
what the heck is going on here? Kitchentable is now a dissection table.
(25:30):
But yeah, I'm so happy.
Well, it looks like thesecret sauce is less podium,
more conversation, and maybe add to that,
that out of control is the best kindof control when it comes to those
conversations.
(25:52):
Get ready to hit pause again because we'regoing to use this brain break to take
90 seconds and defineguided inquiry in your own
words, just your own simplewords, no jargon. Now,
add one thing after you'vegot a quick definition,
that thing is how you'll try it this week.
(26:14):
So we need a definition and howyou're going to try it this week.
Now without closing your eyes, becauseclosing your eyes may not be safe.
Try to picture the moment you'lllet the class get productively
messy. That's the move we're goingto be looking at in the next segment.
(26:37):
We're back with more conversationwith Murray Jensen about his
experiences of dual enrollment.
And here's another thing just toknow about me and the program.
We get asked this once in a while.
I do not allow online distance learning.
It's got to be face-to-face.That's just who I am.
(26:58):
Some people can run online classrooms,
and we should probablytalk about this too,
a different flavor of dual enrollment.
We've been talking about what my programis at the University of Minnesota,
but there's a lot of schoolsthat will have a dual enrollment,
and the lectures from thecolleges are recorded,
(27:18):
and students at night just go homeand just watch the lecture that was
given at the college that day.
And then in the classroom,
the teachers are basically employed asteaching assistants to go over problems.
And that model exists. Thatmodel definitely does exist,
but I don't think it's optimal.
(27:39):
I don't want students watchingrecorded lectures. They can do TikTok,
they can do YouTube on their own,
but having to sit there and watchsomebody go through PowerPoint slides,
oh my goodness,
that not sound like anenjoyable learning experience.
I don't think as a student,
I could have made it veryfar in a program like that.
(28:01):
I should mention this. This is kind ofthe politics of concurrent enrollment,
dual enrollment, justpoliticians. Well, the schools,
the high schools pay the tuition for the
university,
so there's money flow from thehigh schools to the University of
Minnesota, and that moneyflow is political, of course.
(28:23):
And politicians like thisprogram because you can speed
up the clock,
you can get students graduatingat the University of Minnesota
in three years or eventwo and a half years
and parents like that too.
I'm only going to pay threeyears of tuition and not four.
(28:44):
So there's kind of a lot offinancial stuff involved in this,
but with the teachers I work withand myself included, it's just like,
oh my gosh,
this notion of hurry up and graduateis not healthy for a lot of kids.
Their maturity just isn'tready for the big world yet. So
a 20-year-old who's maybesuper smart in engineering just
(29:08):
might not be ready to go out and havetheir own apartment in a different city,
but a lot of pushing. But I try to,
what we do with our programis just like, okay, yeah,
there is college credit,
but the most important thing here ishelping students make up their minds of,
do I want to pursue a career in STEM?
(29:30):
Do I want to pursue acareer in healthcare?
And the answer "no" is just fine with me.
If a kid is 17,
18 and thinking they're having to be amedical because mom and dad are pushing
and they look at this materialand just get turned off,
help 'em make a valid decision. It'sjust like this world is not for me.
(29:51):
But yeah, there's a lot of pushing.It's just hurry up and graduate.
And if you take 12 credits yoursenior year of high school,
you might be able to get through theuniversity in two and a half years.
And I don't think that'shealthy. That's my opinion. Yeah,
the politicians love itbecause it's less money,
less time at the publiclyfunded universities.
(30:14):
Yeah, I get that.
But I agree with you that part of theeducation that I think students get at
both high school and college level ismore than just what's going on in their
classes anyway.
So getting them out of there quicker is,
I think it's cheating them of additionalexperience that they're going to have
(30:34):
with each other and with themselves.
Helping 'em grow up.
There's a lot more to growing up thanlearning the core concepts of human
physiology.
Learning to have a good conversationat one in the morning in your dorm room
with some good friends andjust to learn, hang out.
Those are skills that you typically don'tlearn by just keeping your nose in a
(30:58):
book.
Exactly. Exactly. Let's takeanother quick brain break,
and then we'll be back withmore from Murray Jensen.
For this brain break,
we're going to try and come upwith three signals that we could
see in a course that tells usthat it's rigorous without being
(31:19):
rigid. Get it? Rigor without rigidity.
Here are a couple of examples ofsigns to kind of get your thinking
started. For example,
one sign is when studentsask better questions,
another sign is when theyargue with the evidence,
another sign is theyrevise and refine their
(31:43):
ideas faster. Okay,
so try to come up withthree, then ask yourself,
do I see any of thesesignals in my course?
Does this usually changeas the course progresses?
Discuss. ...well, I guesswith yourself, or okay,
(32:05):
with a friend,-because you're probablyhaving a podcast listening party, right?!
We're back with Murray Jensen,
and I want to talk about rigor.When I was still in the
classroom,
every once in a while somebody wouldmention dual enrollment in some context,
maybe they were discussing aparticular student and they said, well,
(32:28):
did they have biology before theycame into A&P? And well, yeah,
but it was dual enrollment and
that "but" always struck mebecause had a really good dual
enrollment experience myself,
I'm thinking that they're thinkingof this as less. And, I mean,
I've seen eyes roll when theterm dual enrollment comes up.
(32:50):
I don't know if that's stillas big a deal as it used to be,
but it seemed like a lot of my colleagueswho never had any experience of dual
enrollment have this preconceptionthat it's "less than" in some
way. In my experience,
not only as a student in dual enrollment,
but my experience with peoplelike you who interact with dual
(33:13):
enrollment programs,tells me the opposite.
It's actually a really, really goodexperience. Have you seen that at all,
or is that just my little pocket ofthe universe? And if you have seen it,
is that still around? Is that an issue?
Well, with skeptics, professors whoare skeptics, I'm pretty honest,
(33:35):
just to say there's going to be a range.
There's going to be a range ofquality and a range of rigor.
And if you take a really high achieving
classroom in a high school,
they're often working harderand students are doing better
and better work than what youcan find inn a lot of colleges.
(33:56):
I'm totally convinced that some ofmy toughest College-in-the-School's
teachers, their classesare tougher than mine.
And there's reasons for that.And I'm just fine with that.
My students are different than theirstudents. Their students are just top,
top of the line, and thoseteachers know how to push 'em,
(34:16):
so their exams are tougher thanmy exams. I'm just fine with that.
They're all supposed to be the same.That's the quality control part,
but "gasp," they're not.
Some of the schools are probablya little bit easier than me,
and some are tougher thanme, but by and large,
the people I'm with just kindof accept it as a fact now. And
(34:37):
I should probably explain theUniversity of Minnesota's College of
Biology, freshmen biology class.
We have designed our freshmenbiology class to kind of just say,
we expect you to haveadvanced placement biology.
We expect you to have rigoroushigh school biology. But yeah,
that's what we expect. Now, here'syour freshman biology class.
(35:01):
It's called Foundations,
and it's massive and it's anamazingly difficult class,
and students come out ofthere just like, whoa.
They're on their way to being prettyhigh-end biologists. But yeah,
many of my students go into thatprogram. When I say my students,
they took high school dualenrollment, and they're well equipped.
(35:22):
They're well equipped. Yeah.
I cannot deny the fact thatthere's going to be a range.
There's dual enrollment programs thatprobably are not worth their salt.
I don't want to be one of'em. The teachers I work with,
they know what I require, sothere's no mixed messages there.
But yeah, I've heard someprograms that are basically just,
(35:44):
they're in it for the money. Theschools need it for the money,
and the teachers are just callingit in. Of course, that exists.
That's human nature, but I reallydon't want it in my program.
My program's got a good reputationand I work hard to keep it.
How did you step into this? I mean,
how did you get into the dualenrollment end of things?
(36:06):
The college and the schools, I guess,
has been at the universityfor about 30 years,
and my boss in 15,
16 years ago said, doyou know Susan Henderson?
And it's just like, oh, I kind ofknow that name. And Susan Henderson
(36:27):
made an appointment to come seeme in my office and Susan says,
have you ever heard of dual enrollment?
And she was a nice person andshe was explaining the program,
and it's just like, man, this ismeant for me. I love high schools.
I really missed high school teaching.
Part of the secret sauce of my programis I was a high school teacher.
(36:47):
I know what the schools are like.I know the chaos of the classroom.
I know the chaos of the cafeterias.
I know the problems youhave with principals. And so when teachers talk to me,
I can smile and say, yep,done that. Been there.
And most dual enrollment courseleads the college professors.
They were not high school teachers,
(37:07):
so they don't have that same knowledgeand background that you and I have.
We know what it's like. Yeah, there'sa range there. There's a range there.
But it goes back to a person named SusanHenderson making an appointment and
just saying, would you like to dothis? And it's just like, yeah,
this sounds great.
Boy, that sounds like you. Like, yeah,
(37:29):
I'll try that. I think I can do that.
Are there misunderstandingsthat maybe parents have
or maybe the teachers in their localschools have about dual enrollment?
Oh, absolutely. And I have my syllabus up.
I have my syllabus up right now,
(37:50):
and I've got some language thatI make sure all the teachers send
out to the parents, yougot to listen to this.
It's just like Bio 1015is a freshman-level
introduction to human physiology.
Biology 1015 is notthe first semester of a
two-semester A&P course.
(38:12):
Bio 1015 is not a substitutefor a higher-level
anatomy and physiology course.
We have parents that kind ofthink that after this class,
they're going to go to medschool. It's just like, no, no.
And knowing what you'renot communicating, they ...
They can skip med school.
What?
They can skip med schoolafter taking your course!
(38:37):
It's just misconceptions about whatit takes to get into healthcare.
And we have medical doctorsand nurses and research.
The kids who have gone through ourprogram are now, it's been 15 years, 14,
15 years,
and we've been interviewingsome of 'em and kind of like,
what did we do that influenced yourdecisions and what have we done?
(39:01):
And we're still working at that.
That's kind of the research project I'mworking on is what's the best topics and
what's the best teachingmethods. But they all talk about,
it's just like that class helped mefigure out that I wanted to go into
healthcare. This is atopic I really enjoy.
Let's take another quick brain break.
(39:25):
In this break, I'm asking you tothink of a high school teacher that
you know or are acquainted with, orwho you could introduce yourself to,
who could teach you something aboutclassroom management or motivation.
What would you ask them over a cup of tea?
(39:46):
Write out that question when you get achance or make a voice note for yourself
right now. Okay.
That's going to be thecore of your next outgoing
email.
Have you ever had a momentwhere you thought to yourself,
(40:08):
yes, this is why dual enrollment matters.
This is why I do what I do.
I visit the high schools.That's another part of this,
and I visit the high schools. Andwhen I do that, I talk with students,
I talk with teachers,
and I really have a big heart for
(40:29):
education. Heart and head,
and I use 'em both inteaching and learning.
But when I see the job of highschool teachers, it's just like,
oh my gosh,
that is such a cool world-tobe a part of kids' lives and to
have that much impact on a kid.
And a kid looks at the teacherkind of as a science nerd,
(40:51):
but it's still five daysa week. They're there.
They're role models andit's just like, oh my gosh,
what a cool thing to do with your life.
And then to give them tools.And I write a lot of curriculum.
It's primarily me that writes theactivities and then they tweak 'em.
But it's just like I write a lot andthey use 'em, they use the activities,
(41:16):
and it's just like, huh, thisis a pretty good formula.
This is really a good formula.
I provide them with some structureand some teaching methodologies,
and then I see them put it intoplace and it's just like, yep,
this is a good thing to be doing.
It's given me a good feelingjust listening to what your experience has been and
(41:38):
well, and like I say, I sat in onthat zoom meeting a while back,
and it was really fun to listen tothe interaction between different
instructors that are in the program andthem reflecting what's going on in their
programs.
Is there anything else about dualenrollment programs that you think that
(41:58):
the rest of us teaching anatomy andphysiology at the college level or even at
the high school level,
things that we might not know aboutit that we ought to think about?
Sure. Well, there,
I think the first one is respect.
The high school teachers respectthe high school teachers.
It's just like they are theexperts in teaching and learning,
(42:20):
and they are typically betterat it than college professors.
They spend more time in the classroom.
They understand kids morethan we understand kids.
We understand their topics,our physiology, our anatomy,
but they understand kids betterand so respect that knowledge and
help them achieve goals. But man,
(42:42):
looking down your nose at high schoolteachers, that [beep]s me off, sorry.
I used probably a bad wordthere, but I've seen that.
I have seen that where it's dualenrollment programs where the
college professors justtreat their teachers poorly.
It shows it's just like,well, I've got to do,
(43:04):
my principal says I have to dothis. It's a part of my assignment,
but my goodness, I want it to be thebest part of the day. It's just like,
I love doing this as opposedto I have to do this.
And there's college professorsthat have that feeling that, oh,
I've been assigned to work withthe high schools and it's a chore.
(43:25):
It shouldn't be a chore. And if it is,
get out of it because the kids figuredthat out too. It's just like, oh,
they're just going through the motionshere. So there's got to be a love of it.
And I should say that ideally thereshould be a love of it, and that's me.
This is something I'm trulypassionate about. And let's see here.
(43:46):
That's probably the big one,
is the relationship between the courseprofessor at the university and the high
school teachers. There'sgot to be respect there,
in my opinion. And if there's not,
get out of there and then the moneything is just tainting the whole system.
It's just like there's a lot ofcolleges now that are hurting for
(44:07):
students. They just don't have the numbersof students that they used to have.
And so the administrators are lookingat dual enrollment as a way to beef up
their tuition revenue.And then you end up again,
just forcing the program, oh, we'reassigning you the high school students,
and there's high school kidswho are just really motivated to
(44:31):
become nurses, really motivated tobecome healthcare professionals,
and they'll tolerate bad classes.
They'll tolerate watching anhour of lecture a night that's
been recorded at the local college,but my goodness, do better,
do better.
Do you think that theadministrators who are pushing this,
(44:54):
whether it be for the monetarybenefits to the school or
the program or whatever,
do you think they eventually get to apoint where they have a motivation to do a
good job for the students and toreally make it a high quality program?
Or do you think there area lot of programs out there that really just stay at
that level of
(45:16):
this is a money maker andthat's the beginning and end of what we're doing here?
Yeah.
We had a meeting this past year wherewe sat down with a couple of high school
teachers, a couple communitycollege coordinators,
and I was kind of surprisedwith a lack of passion.
I shouldn't say that probably,but it's just like, boy,
this sounds like a mechanical program,
(45:39):
but I would like to seemore spark in the eye.
And that's fine. It's just like,this is my job. I do my job,
I do my job well, but then Igo home and I take it with me.
I'm thinking about the teachers all thetime and I'm thinking about the kids and
new curriculum ideas,
and you can't expect everybodyto have that level of passion.
(46:01):
And it doesn't meanthey're not good at it.
It just means that it's notthe center of their life.
And for me,
I've got two things that I do.It's community colleges and high schools.
That's the world that I work with.
I think there's increasing pressure onschool administrators to get the budget
balanced, and this isjust another revenue flow,
(46:23):
and I'm just going to say that's a flag.It doesn't mean they don't do it well.
It just means there's pressure,
and that pressure is going to meanthey're going to be just getting pushed to
put students in the seatand getting more revenue in,
and we'll see where it goes.I am not an administrator.
I'm a professor and my administratorin the college and the schools
(46:47):
program, the people I'veworked in has been great.
They tell me the financial side of things,
and I am a big revenuegenerator for that program.
I got 1100 students, a thousandstudents, 1100 students.
That's a lot of tuitiondollars. And they treat me well.
They treat me very well. And whenI say this teacher at this school,
(47:11):
it's like, no, I don't want them in here.
They don't have what it takes to bein my program. They don't say, well,
you've got to take like,okay, it's your decision.
And so they give me autonomyand I appreciate that. But yeah,
I get the feeling that sometimes kindof a forced marriage, it's just like,
(47:31):
you will take this school because theyhave a hundred students that are willing
to pay tuition to take this class.That's not a good relationship.
Yeah, I can imagine that. Thatwould not work out very well. Hey,
let's take a quick breakand when we come back,
we'll wrap up our chat with MurrayJensen as we talk about dual
enrollment.
(47:55):
Next time you have a fewminutes at your desk,
open your next A&P slide deck.
Then remove five slidesthat don't spark discussion.
Replace them with two prompts that force
partner talk,
(48:17):
something like argue forcarbaminohemoglobin's
importance in maintaining life. Or,
predict what fails ifcarbaminohemoglobin fails. Okay.
Those are just examples ...andopportunities for me to say one of
the terms that I'd love to say,
longtime listeners know that-carbaminohemoglobin. Okay,
(48:42):
then save that revised slide deckwhere you've put those prompts,
after removing some otherslides that aren't going to be
sparking any discussion. Sowith that saved slide deck,
use it in your coursewhen it comes up. Come on.
Just try it and thentell us what happened.
(49:06):
Well, Murray,
are there any other big things cookingin the world of dual enrollment in A&P?
Looking down the road?
I'm thinking of trying to write asmall grant that brings together
for anatomy and physiology,dual enrollment, bring in some community colleges,
bring in some administrators,bring in some high school teachers,
(49:28):
and come up with a best practicesdocument. It's kind of like
what can we produce? Whatsort of policy document?
I don't know if the word policyfits there, but best practices.
And so as dual enrollmentgrows and it is growing,
this is doing nothing but growing.
(49:49):
Help, administrators, teachers,and professors out with, okay,
what can we do here
to help students get a good learningexperience? And the students are the key.
It's all about the students.I work with the teachers,
but the teachers work with the students,
and student learning has got tobe the goal. It's not the revenue.
(50:10):
It's not the money. Youneed that, of course,
but it's just like what happensin this program so as to
optimize student learningand student development.
But that's a project down the road.
I got a few other to get done first,
but that's a topic I'm thinking aboutis trying to develop a best practices
(50:32):
document for dual enrollmentanatomy and physiology.
That sounds really exciting.I would like to see that.
And I guess that leads meto the question of, I mean,
do you see that as being somethingthat can also be adapted for
people teaching at the collegelevel too? Because I mean,
a lot of the things that are going towork in dual enrollment are going to work
(50:55):
in the regular on-campus classes, I think.
Well, this is a push for me. It's inhuman physiology, it's core concepts,
and I know the people in theCore Concepts research group,
and it's just like as far as curriculumis concerned, without a doubt,
introductory classes shouldfocus on core concepts,
(51:17):
and so that's an easy one.
But then the second item there ishow should the core concepts be
taught?
And I am extremely biasedin terms of guided inquiry,
cooperative group learning. Students,
having discussions using thelanguage of the discipline over,
(51:37):
"I'm going to show you27 PowerPoint slides on
energy flow."
A PowerPoint is just so... what?
It's so efficient atdispersing information,
but so inefficient atgenerating conversation.
But it's the conversation.I'm a constructivist.
(52:00):
Students learn best when they're engagedin conversations using the language of
the discipline. When I'm thinkingabout entry level courses,
that's what I think shouldbe done-over "It's just like,
here's 111 PowerPoint slides.
Any questions? Any questions?"It's boring. But yeah, that's me.
(52:22):
That's me for best practicesin entry level science.
We'll see what other people think too.
There's probably a research projectthere, but generally active learning,
and that's an overused word,
active learning wins out over PowerPoint.
I think that's a great spotto wrap things up. Murray,
I really appreciate your time and Iappreciate all the effort that's gone into
(52:45):
your program.
I'm sure there's far greaterbenefit than even you realize
with all those thousands of studentsout there now doing their thing,
and you had a hand inthat, so congratulations.
Some very,
very successful people are not in theSTEM world that have been through my
program, and I keepreminding the teachers that.
(53:06):
So it's like even if they take a toughhuman physiology class and they say,
that's not for me, that's a success.
We helped a kid make a decision. But yeah,
there's a lot of graduates of thisprogram, that's for sure. And Kevin,
I'd encourage you tomaybe in a future program,
talk to a couple of the teachers,
(53:29):
because I'm not in the day-to-day worldof what happens in the high school,
and I think your audience might enjoyhearing what happens on a day-to-day
basis in the high schools.
I know. I would love to hear that.So that's a definite yes on that,
so you and I are going to haveto work on making that happen.
(53:49):
Sounds good. You take care, Murray,
and I'm sure I'll see you aroundat the next HAPS meeting or before,
and I hope you have a successfulstart to your new semester.
Well, thanks, Kevin.
Well, here we are at the endof another adventure together.
Let's take a breath and remindourselves of the main takeaways from
(54:14):
today's chat with my friend MurrayJensen about dual enrollment in
A&P.
One big thing that stood outis the power of community.
Murray described how his programisn't just about students collecting
credits.
It's about building a networkof teachers who swap ideas,
(54:36):
support each other,
and sometimes just commiserateabout the everyday headaches of
teaching.
That sense of belonging can be justas valuable as the coursework itself.
We also heard about hisinsistence on quality.
Dual enrollment is not assome skeptics might say,
(54:58):
a watered down versionof college. In fact,
the rigor can be every bit as strongor stronger than what you'll find
in a typical college or university class.
And Murray was clearthat the right teachers,
the ones with that gleam in the eye,
are critical to making that rigor work.Another
(55:22):
important takeaway is pedagogy.
Murray champions guided inquiryand cooperative learning
instead of the usual marchthrough endless slides.
Sure, it feels messy at times,
but that kind of productivechaos is where students
(55:43):
really wrestle with concepts andlearn to think like scientists.
We also touched on the pressuresaround money and speed,
how dual enrollment is sometimesseen as just a shortcut to
shave time and tuition.
But Murray reminded us that thereal goal is student growth and
(56:07):
decision-making, not simplyhurrying them out the door.
It's about helping young people figureout who they are and where they want to
go. And speaking of growth,
I tried something new with this episode.
You probably noticed that the brainbreaks were a little more interactive than
(56:28):
usual. Instead of just resting your ears,
I asked you to do small reflectivetasks like jotting down words or
questions to see if that addsa new layer of engagement.
I'd really like to know whatyou think about that experiment.
Did it work for you? Wasit too much, too little?
(56:50):
Let me know.
You can always share your thoughtswith me by calling the podcast hotline.
That's 1 - 8 3 3 - LION - DEN, or
1
-
8
3
3
-
5
4
6
-
6
3
3
6,
or shoot me an email at
podcast@theAPprofessor.org.
(57:13):
I read and listen to every message,
and I'd love to know how you'reconnecting with these changes.
That's it for now. As always,
thanks for being part of thisteaching community with me.
I'll see you down the road.
(57:33):
The A&P Professor ishosted by Dr. Kevin Patton,
an award-winning professor and textbookauthor in human anatomy and physiology.
The A&P Professor podcast isnot responsible for coffee or
tea spilled duringenthusiastic head nodding.
Please caffeinate responsibly.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.