September 4, 2025 • 12 mins
Join Marvin Cash on The Articulate Fly for another Casting Angles segment with expert instructor Mac Brown, where they explore the path from basic technique to true casting mastery.
Brown, a renowned fly fishing guide and casting instructor from Bryson City, North Carolina, brings decades of teaching experience to discuss the four stages of learning that transform mechanical casting into effortless, flow-state performance.
Perfect timing for the post-Labor Day transition period, this episode dives into advanced line control techniques, kinesthetic learning approaches and why skill retention matters more than flashy one-time performance. Brown reveals how understanding the "why" behind casting mechanics eliminates performance anxiety and joint freezing, while his progressive teaching method ensures anglers build consistency before advancing to the next skill level.
Learn about curve casts, double haul variations and systematic approaches to building a complete arsenal of casting techniques that utilize different airspaces for varying water conditions and obstacles. Brown emphasizes why mastering multiple line control methods prepares anglers for real fishing situations when trees and cover block traditional casting lanes.
With fall fishing opportunities ahead in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and delayed harvest stocking beginning in October, this episode provides essential preparation for anglers ready to elevate their casting from basic competence to confident mastery on the water.
Related Content
S7, Ep 20 - Practice Makes Perfect: Mac Brown on Mastering Casting Techniques
S7, Ep 16 - Simplifying Complexity: Effective Teaching Strategies in Fly Fishing with Mac Brown
S6, Ep 10 - Casting Angles with Mac Brown
S7, Ep 28 - Warming Waters and Active Fish: A Spring Fishing Update with Mac Brown
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of the Articulate Fly. We're
back with another castingangles with the man himself, Mac
Brown. Mac, how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. How are things in
your neck of the woods?
Well, we're in that transitionright now from after Labor Day to
where, you know, it's going toget a little bit slower in town for
(00:25):
a month and it ends up beingone of my favorite time of year is
to go up in the park. Youknow, the park's not going to be
near as crowded in thenational park. So it's kind of nice
having it slow down for a change.
Yeah, and you got, we'll bestocking DH here at the beginning
of October and we were talkingbefore we started recording that
we thought, you know, somepeople, some people fish through
(00:46):
the summer and they go chasebass and panfish and stuff. But then
some people just kind of takea break and they kind of get ready
to get back into it for thefall. And you know, for those folks,
you know, we've talked a lotabout practicing with intention and
all kinds of self improvementtechniques, but we thought it might
be helpful to talk about, youknow, how to think about mastery
of a particular task.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's agood, a really good lofty goal for
(01:09):
sure is try to get to the, youknow, work through the four stages
of, you know, basically fourstages of learning to where people
can start to, to act withoutputting thought process in, you know,
like a flow state kind ofthing. And that's when usually people
are at their best with anytype of kinesthetic movement is when
they don't think about it,they just do. And of course that
(01:31):
comes through, you know,repetition and actually practicing
things to where you don't haveto try to think about how you're
going to do something on thewater and that that's a big difference.
And yeah, so that's kind ofwhat we were talking about before
we started too. Just, youknow, I think about this a lot with,
in teaching lessons and thingsand on the road with educational
(01:51):
things, Marvin, that, youknow, a lot of when I was 20 years
old, the difference is if youwere given somebody, let's say whatever
task it is, say it's going tocurve or learning to double haul
or whatever it might be, andthe older you get, you start realizing
that's not even, that's justthe performance of a certain skill
versus the retention of thatskill. So that's kind of where I'm
(02:14):
at at this age. A lot thinkingabout retention way more than I am
saying, oh, look at, look atGeorge. He just did this. And, you
know, then you look at Georgefive minutes later, and he's totally
lost it again because it's notin a flow state. He's thinking too
much. And usually their mindcomes into play. And that's where.
That's why, you know, gettingthe repetitions even that we talk
(02:34):
about, you have to have reallygood days and bad days to start to
appreciate retention, you know?
Yeah. And you kind of have tobreak it down into kind of teacher
and student. Right. And so,you know, when you're teaching, because
we always talk about having agoal, like, what's it for? So, you
know, as the teacher, you wantto be really reductive, but also
too, you know, your goal is ifyou teach someone to perform the
(02:55):
task on Monday, you want toknow that when they're not with you
on Saturday, that they canstill perform that task.
That's right. And I think theonly way that really works is. Is.
Is covering the where, when,you know, the how, why, what? I mean,
when people start tounderstand why something works the
way it does, even ifkinesthetically, they're lagging
(03:17):
behind, but they understandhow it works, they'll get there as
far as retention. But if. Ifwe don't have those. Those other
things in retention, I mean,what happens a lot in kinesthetic
sports is. Is reallyperformance. A lot of times, performance
anxiety. You know, with theact of, you know, people will freeze
joints and you show them awhole motion of what you want their
(03:39):
whole body to do. Next thingyou know, they're just bicep and
tricep casting it like alollipop rainbow. And it's like nothing's
clicking. But there's a goodexample of. Of freezing because they
didn't. They didn't do themotion they're supposed to do because
then they're. They're actuallyusing a freezing type. Blocking it
blocks the body from openingup and using their whole body, you
(04:00):
know, and that goes away once,Once people start to understand the,
you know, the where, when,why, what, and how things work, then
the, you know, the freezingand all of that stuff disappears
entirely. And that. What.That's where they're getting towards
mastery, as you call it. Yeah.
And I'd say too, like on thestudent end, you know, when you're
(04:21):
on the practice field, youknow, you know, if you can go out
and repeat the Task, you know,three or four times on different
days, you probably might betime for you to kind of move on to
master the next thing, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah. Once you getconsistency, then it's time to look
to the next thing. I mean,that's a great, that's a good way
to look at it. Just because,just because, like in curves and,
(04:45):
you know, advanced line layoutand control, there's a lot of ways
to throw those, you know, andit's, it's like you master it one
way, you do that a few weeksand it starts to click. We'll go
to step two and then play withthat one. And if that one gives you
trouble, go back and make sureyou still got step one. Then after
a while you're on step fourand before you know it, that's how
(05:07):
you're kind of building your,your mastery of, of line control.
People always ask, well, whycan't I just use one? Well, that's
really self explanatorybecause they all use different airspaces.
And what happens when you gotfive of those airspaces blocked with
trees or cover or that kind ofthing? Well, now we need a sixth
one. You know, that's whatmakes people go back home and think,
(05:28):
well, what do I need to donow? But yeah, that's the reason
there's so many.
Yeah, because I mean, it'sinteresting too, right? Because it
sounds complicated, butactually if you take this approach,
it makes it simpler becauseyou're not having to remember, you
know, here I am, I want to doan upstream min, because this is
what the current's doing andthis is where the fish is. And you
know, and I think that'sactually, you and I have talked about
(05:50):
this a lot. It's kind of aknock we have on kind of the way
people teach people. It's alsokind of a lot of the stuff you see
on social media. But if peoplewant started to just understand the
basic mechanics of the cast,kind of like that class that we put
together, life on the waterwould be infinitely easier.
Oh yeah, yeah, it is.Definitely is. Hey, congratulations
(06:10):
to Marvin for, for the OutdoorWriter Association. You want to tell
us a little bit about speakingover there?
Oh, yeah, I appreciate that.Yeah. So we had to skip. It's actually
been a month, I guess, Max,since we spoke. And it's because,
I guess two weeks ago I was inChattanooga at the OW Annual meeting
and I was fortunate enough towin first place in the podcast radio
(06:34):
category in fishing for aninterview I did with Andy Mill last
year. So super Excited aboutthat. That's always awesome. But
then I was also excitedbecause I was actually one of their
keynote speakers and workshopteachers and spoke a lot about how
to authentically use AI inyour work process. So it was pretty
cool. It was a lot of fun.And, you know, obviously I'm super
(06:54):
honored with the recognition.
Oh, yeah, well, that's, that'sa big. That's a big honor for sure.
And before we go on into theteaching stuff deeper as well, I
wanted to express ourcondolences there. You know, we lost
a lot of legends in our sportsince I talked to you last week.
And AK Best, Flip Powlett andRick Shelton from Birmingham, all,
(07:18):
all were, you know, big, biginto the sport of fly fishing for
years and gave us a lot of, Alot of the nuggets that we hold on
to today. So our hearts go outto their family and friends and wanted
to mention that too, becausethat's a huge loss to our sport.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it'skind of amazing, you know, the luminaries
of fly fishing we've lost overthe last, I don't know, two to three
(07:40):
years. Right?
Yeah, yeah. It's just. That'sreally, really unfortunate. You know,
Rick was. He helped us a lotdown there out of Birmingham with
the, with the Loop as anassistant editor for that, and he
was getting ready to take hismaster's test and he was definitely
(08:00):
really changing a lot of the,A lot of the casting events for the
Southeastern Councilthroughout the South. I mean, he
was really, really helpingteach a lot. And he was, he was the
epitome of a. Somebody thatwas going after, you know, becoming
a world class teacher forsure. And so that was a huge, you
know, shock with whathappened, you know, with him. So.
(08:21):
Yeah, I just wanted to bringthat up too.
Yeah. And it's amazing too,you know, seeing the outpouring for
Flip on social media, how manypeople he touched and how many people
he brought into the sporteither as anglers or become guides
or outfitters or industrypeople. Just absolutely amazing.
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I read areally good. A good write up and
(08:45):
I know that from talking withhim before, but he was. The Flip
was the real deal. I mean, asfar as a hunter. I mean, he liked
to hunt, he liked to fish, andhe really understood the balance
of. One of the best things Ithink I learned off of Flip over
the years was talking about,you know, the resources and infinite.
And with technology, thistechnology, you know, keeps getting
(09:07):
bigger and bigger with like,apply it to bass fishing. Okay. You
Got sonar, you got peoplespending 30 grand on electronics
that know exactly where thefish is. Where's the sport in that?
So I, I tend to agree heavilywith Flip. The more we keep getting
more and more advanced, whenare we gonna draw the line on going
back and doing it? Doing itPrimitive, I call primitive. Fly
fishing's about as primitiveas you can get. You know what I mean?
(09:30):
You look at water, you readthe water, you make a cast. And if
fish is there, Lord willing,it, it eats. But I don't know, I'm
pretty strongly opinionated inthe fact that when we get all this
technology, I mean, are wegoing to start hunting, you know,
deer and gazelle andeverything else with drones and drop
a net from the air? Are wegoing to go out with archery, you
(09:53):
know what I mean, and just sitand do it like years ago, I mean,
he had a lot of really goodopinions about that kind of stuff.
And I think he, he's reallythe first person that I know that
brought that up a lot.
Yeah. And I would say, youknow, AK best was a tire's tire for
sure.
Oh yeah, yeah, with dying. Andwe used to read a lot of AK stuff,
(10:14):
you know, three decades agoand it learned a lot of stuff about
dying with vineyard dyes. Andthen of course Davey's help helped
me a lot with, with that too.The vineyard dies of course, coming
out of the UK and. But that'swhere I first got my interest from.
It was from AK's books backthen. And of course I'd see him at
the shows, you know, sinceback in the early 90s, AK used to
(10:34):
come to a lot of the shows andhe'd be like featured tire and that
kind of thing. So I got tospend a lot of time with him on the
road and yeah, he definitelyoffered a huge amount of innovation
there for tires worldwide. Yeah.
And you mentioned Davey. Youknow, this is a great segue to get
us to talk about your classes.You've got a casting school, a guide
(10:55):
school and then I guessprobably. Probably what? In about
six weeks you're going to bedown in Arkansas teaching with Davey,
right?
That's right. We'd have a wetfly boot camp and we're going to
cover, you know, some dry flyand nymphing techniques as well.
But most of it definitely willfavor heavy into the wet fly game.
That's October 24 to 26. Andthen we got a school here, five day
(11:18):
school, the 15th of October tothe 19th. And the casting school's
about, I mean I could I couldmaybe take one. There's one guy that
was going to sign up, like,weeks ago, and he keeps saying he
got check on the date. So, Imean, I probably got one spot left
for 13th September to the 14thfor the advanced line control class
here in Bryson City.
(11:41):
Well, got it. And, you know,folks can just go to your website
and check all that stuff out.And then, you know, they can get
in the boat, too, if they wantto reach out, probably. I know you're
an email man or smoke signals,you don't like social media, so we'll
encourage people to reach outthat way. And it's almost pumpkin
spice latte time. And folks,as I always say, yo, it's yourself
(12:01):
to get out there and catch afew tight lines, everybody. Tight
lines, Matt, Tight lines.
Margaret.
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of the Articulate Fly. We're
back with another castingangles with the man himself, Mac
Brown. Mac, how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. How are things in
your neck of the woods?
Well, we're in that transitionright now from after Labor Day to
where, you know, it's going toget a little bit slower in town for
(00:25):
a month and it ends up beingone of my favorite time of year is
to go up in the park. Youknow, the park's not going to be
near as crowded in thenational park. So it's kind of nice
having it slow down for a change.
Yeah, and you got, we'll bestocking DH here at the beginning
of October and we were talkingbefore we started recording that
we thought, you know, somepeople, some people fish through
(00:46):
the summer and they go chasebass and panfish and stuff. But then
some people just kind of takea break and they kind of get ready
to get back into it for thefall. And you know, for those folks,
you know, we've talked a lotabout practicing with intention and
all kinds of self improvementtechniques, but we thought it might
be helpful to talk about, youknow, how to think about mastery
of a particular task.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's agood, a really good lofty goal for
(01:09):
sure is try to get to the, youknow, work through the four stages
of, you know, basically fourstages of learning to where people
can start to, to act withoutputting thought process in, you know,
like a flow state kind ofthing. And that's when usually people
are at their best with anytype of kinesthetic movement is when
they don't think about it,they just do. And of course that
(01:31):
comes through, you know,repetition and actually practicing
things to where you don't haveto try to think about how you're
going to do something on thewater and that that's a big difference.
And yeah, so that's kind ofwhat we were talking about before
we started too. Just, youknow, I think about this a lot with,
in teaching lessons and thingsand on the road with educational
(01:51):
things, Marvin, that, youknow, a lot of when I was 20 years
old, the difference is if youwere given somebody, let's say whatever
task it is, say it's going tocurve or learning to double haul
or whatever it might be, andthe older you get, you start realizing
that's not even, that's justthe performance of a certain skill
versus the retention of thatskill. So that's kind of where I'm
(02:14):
at at this age. A lot thinkingabout retention way more than I am
saying, oh, look at, look atGeorge. He just did this. And, you
know, then you look at Georgefive minutes later, and he's totally
lost it again because it's notin a flow state. He's thinking too
much. And usually their mindcomes into play. And that's where.
That's why, you know, gettingthe repetitions even that we talk
(02:34):
about, you have to have reallygood days and bad days to start to
appreciate retention, you know?
Yeah. And you kind of have tobreak it down into kind of teacher
and student. Right. And so,you know, when you're teaching, because
we always talk about having agoal, like, what's it for? So, you
know, as the teacher, you wantto be really reductive, but also
too, you know, your goal is ifyou teach someone to perform the
(02:55):
task on Monday, you want toknow that when they're not with you
on Saturday, that they canstill perform that task.
That's right. And I think theonly way that really works is. Is.
Is covering the where, when,you know, the how, why, what? I mean,
when people start tounderstand why something works the
way it does, even ifkinesthetically, they're lagging
(03:17):
behind, but they understandhow it works, they'll get there as
far as retention. But if. Ifwe don't have those. Those other
things in retention, I mean,what happens a lot in kinesthetic
sports is. Is reallyperformance. A lot of times, performance
anxiety. You know, with theact of, you know, people will freeze
joints and you show them awhole motion of what you want their
(03:39):
whole body to do. Next thingyou know, they're just bicep and
tricep casting it like alollipop rainbow. And it's like nothing's
clicking. But there's a goodexample of. Of freezing because they
didn't. They didn't do themotion they're supposed to do because
then they're. They're actuallyusing a freezing type. Blocking it
blocks the body from openingup and using their whole body, you
(04:00):
know, and that goes away once,Once people start to understand the,
you know, the where, when,why, what, and how things work, then
the, you know, the freezingand all of that stuff disappears
entirely. And that. What.That's where they're getting towards
mastery, as you call it. Yeah.
And I'd say too, like on thestudent end, you know, when you're
(04:21):
on the practice field, youknow, you know, if you can go out
and repeat the Task, you know,three or four times on different
days, you probably might betime for you to kind of move on to
master the next thing, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah. Once you getconsistency, then it's time to look
to the next thing. I mean,that's a great, that's a good way
to look at it. Just because,just because, like in curves and,
(04:45):
you know, advanced line layoutand control, there's a lot of ways
to throw those, you know, andit's, it's like you master it one
way, you do that a few weeksand it starts to click. We'll go
to step two and then play withthat one. And if that one gives you
trouble, go back and make sureyou still got step one. Then after
a while you're on step fourand before you know it, that's how
(05:07):
you're kind of building your,your mastery of, of line control.
People always ask, well, whycan't I just use one? Well, that's
really self explanatorybecause they all use different airspaces.
And what happens when you gotfive of those airspaces blocked with
trees or cover or that kind ofthing? Well, now we need a sixth
one. You know, that's whatmakes people go back home and think,
(05:28):
well, what do I need to donow? But yeah, that's the reason
there's so many.
Yeah, because I mean, it'sinteresting too, right? Because it
sounds complicated, butactually if you take this approach,
it makes it simpler becauseyou're not having to remember, you
know, here I am, I want to doan upstream min, because this is
what the current's doing andthis is where the fish is. And you
know, and I think that'sactually, you and I have talked about
(05:50):
this a lot. It's kind of aknock we have on kind of the way
people teach people. It's alsokind of a lot of the stuff you see
on social media. But if peoplewant started to just understand the
basic mechanics of the cast,kind of like that class that we put
together, life on the waterwould be infinitely easier.
Oh yeah, yeah, it is.Definitely is. Hey, congratulations
(06:10):
to Marvin for, for the OutdoorWriter Association. You want to tell
us a little bit about speakingover there?
Oh, yeah, I appreciate that.Yeah. So we had to skip. It's actually
been a month, I guess, Max,since we spoke. And it's because,
I guess two weeks ago I was inChattanooga at the OW Annual meeting
and I was fortunate enough towin first place in the podcast radio
(06:34):
category in fishing for aninterview I did with Andy Mill last
year. So super Excited aboutthat. That's always awesome. But
then I was also excitedbecause I was actually one of their
keynote speakers and workshopteachers and spoke a lot about how
to authentically use AI inyour work process. So it was pretty
cool. It was a lot of fun.And, you know, obviously I'm super
(06:54):
honored with the recognition.
Oh, yeah, well, that's, that'sa big. That's a big honor for sure.
And before we go on into theteaching stuff deeper as well, I
wanted to express ourcondolences there. You know, we lost
a lot of legends in our sportsince I talked to you last week.
And AK Best, Flip Powlett andRick Shelton from Birmingham, all,
(07:18):
all were, you know, big, biginto the sport of fly fishing for
years and gave us a lot of, Alot of the nuggets that we hold on
to today. So our hearts go outto their family and friends and wanted
to mention that too, becausethat's a huge loss to our sport.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it'skind of amazing, you know, the luminaries
of fly fishing we've lost overthe last, I don't know, two to three
(07:40):
years. Right?
Yeah, yeah. It's just. That'sreally, really unfortunate. You know,
Rick was. He helped us a lotdown there out of Birmingham with
the, with the Loop as anassistant editor for that, and he
was getting ready to take hismaster's test and he was definitely
(08:00):
really changing a lot of the,A lot of the casting events for the
Southeastern Councilthroughout the South. I mean, he
was really, really helpingteach a lot. And he was, he was the
epitome of a. Somebody thatwas going after, you know, becoming
a world class teacher forsure. And so that was a huge, you
know, shock with whathappened, you know, with him. So.
(08:21):
Yeah, I just wanted to bringthat up too.
Yeah. And it's amazing too,you know, seeing the outpouring for
Flip on social media, how manypeople he touched and how many people
he brought into the sporteither as anglers or become guides
or outfitters or industrypeople. Just absolutely amazing.
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I read areally good. A good write up and
(08:45):
I know that from talking withhim before, but he was. The Flip
was the real deal. I mean, asfar as a hunter. I mean, he liked
to hunt, he liked to fish, andhe really understood the balance
of. One of the best things Ithink I learned off of Flip over
the years was talking about,you know, the resources and infinite.
And with technology, thistechnology, you know, keeps getting
(09:07):
bigger and bigger with like,apply it to bass fishing. Okay. You
Got sonar, you got peoplespending 30 grand on electronics
that know exactly where thefish is. Where's the sport in that?
So I, I tend to agree heavilywith Flip. The more we keep getting
more and more advanced, whenare we gonna draw the line on going
back and doing it? Doing itPrimitive, I call primitive. Fly
fishing's about as primitiveas you can get. You know what I mean?
(09:30):
You look at water, you readthe water, you make a cast. And if
fish is there, Lord willing,it, it eats. But I don't know, I'm
pretty strongly opinionated inthe fact that when we get all this
technology, I mean, are wegoing to start hunting, you know,
deer and gazelle andeverything else with drones and drop
a net from the air? Are wegoing to go out with archery, you
(09:53):
know what I mean, and just sitand do it like years ago, I mean,
he had a lot of really goodopinions about that kind of stuff.
And I think he, he's reallythe first person that I know that
brought that up a lot.
Yeah. And I would say, youknow, AK best was a tire's tire for
sure.
Oh yeah, yeah, with dying. Andwe used to read a lot of AK stuff,
(10:14):
you know, three decades agoand it learned a lot of stuff about
dying with vineyard dyes. Andthen of course Davey's help helped
me a lot with, with that too.The vineyard dies of course, coming
out of the UK and. But that'swhere I first got my interest from.
It was from AK's books backthen. And of course I'd see him at
the shows, you know, sinceback in the early 90s, AK used to
(10:34):
come to a lot of the shows andhe'd be like featured tire and that
kind of thing. So I got tospend a lot of time with him on the
road and yeah, he definitelyoffered a huge amount of innovation
there for tires worldwide. Yeah.
And you mentioned Davey. Youknow, this is a great segue to get
us to talk about your classes.You've got a casting school, a guide
(10:55):
school and then I guessprobably. Probably what? In about
six weeks you're going to bedown in Arkansas teaching with Davey,
right?
That's right. We'd have a wetfly boot camp and we're going to
cover, you know, some dry flyand nymphing techniques as well.
But most of it definitely willfavor heavy into the wet fly game.
That's October 24 to 26. Andthen we got a school here, five day
(11:18):
school, the 15th of October tothe 19th. And the casting school's
about, I mean I could I couldmaybe take one. There's one guy that
was going to sign up, like,weeks ago, and he keeps saying he
got check on the date. So, Imean, I probably got one spot left
for 13th September to the 14thfor the advanced line control class
here in Bryson City.
(11:41):
Well, got it. And, you know,folks can just go to your website
and check all that stuff out.And then, you know, they can get
in the boat, too, if they wantto reach out, probably. I know you're
an email man or smoke signals,you don't like social media, so we'll
encourage people to reach outthat way. And it's almost pumpkin
spice latte time. And folks,as I always say, yo, it's yourself
(12:01):
to get out there and catch afew tight lines, everybody. Tight
lines, Matt, Tight lines.
Margaret.
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CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Dateline NBC
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