September 18, 2025 • 11 mins
Join Marvin Cash on The Articulate Fly fishing podcast for another essential Casting Angles segment with renowned guide and casting instructor Mac Brown, who brings over 40 years of guiding experience to this critical discussion on building foundational casting skills.
Mac reveals why most anglers struggle with on-water situations despite countless hours of park practice, explaining how developing a strong foundational casting stroke facilitates the variability needed to adapt seamlessly to challenging fishing conditions from Wisconsin's Driftless area vegetation to Montana's windy rivers.
Learn why "pickup and lay down" repetition leads to context dependency that fails when trees, wind and tight quarters demand creative solutions, and discover how mastering core principles like power and rod path variations enables you to throw positive and negative curve casts confidently in any fishing scenario.
With delayed harvest season approaching, Mac emphasizes the importance of grass-based practice sessions that build true adaptability rather than memorized responses, transforming frustrated anglers into confident problem-solvers who can handle mangrove-covered saltwater flats or rhododendron-shrouded mountain streams with equal skill.
Whether you're preparing for fall fishing or looking to break through casting plateaus, this segment provides the foundational understanding that serious fly fishing enthusiasts need to elevate their stream performance through intelligent practice and strategic skill development.
Related Content
S7, Ep 20 - Practice Makes Perfect: Mac Brown on Mastering Casting Techniques
S7, Ep 41 - Navigating High Water: Strategies for Success with Mac Brown
S6, Ep 93 - Terrestrials, Drift and Teaching the Next Generation with Mac Brown
S6, Ep 130 - Casting in Color: Mac Brown's Fall Fly Fishing Strategies
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of The Articulate Fly. And
we're back with anotherCasting Angles with Mac Brown. Mac,
how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. And you know, it's
kind of funny I got to spendsome time with you this weekend at
your advanced line controlclass and had a good time and it
kind of gave us an idea forthis week to talk about building
(00:24):
a strong foundation and thenhow to vary off that. And it doesn't
apply just to casting. It kindof applies to everything in fly fishing,
right?
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think that'sa good, that's a great topic. And
kind of like, kind of likewhen we're timber framing and talking
about foundations and what,what's going to stand on top of that
foundation and, you know, whatyou can do with it. So I think that's
(00:45):
going to be a good thing forthe talk to talk for the podcast
tonight.
Yeah, and I think so. Youknow, kind of part of this too, folks,
is what we try to do is wetend to have a tendency to like,
try to remember a ton ofdifferent little itty bitty pieces
of information and they're notreally related. And you know, in
casting, if you can kind ofcome up with a foundational casting
stroke, then we can talk aboutdoing all sorts of things off of
(01:08):
that based on just varying,you know, we, you know, we were going
back and forth, we startedrecording, we could talk about, you
know, power path and pause,but, you know, basically, you know,
variations off of that. But ifyou don't have that core understanding,
it makes it really hard toeasily move to those variations.
Right, Mac?
That's exactly right. Yeah.Because think about, I mean, to apply
(01:30):
this, I mean, to what we do inour sport of fly fishing and casting.
It's all about, you know, you,you dealing with all the external
surroundings and the situationyou're in. So, so what that means
for what you're trying to dowith the string on a bendy stick,
if you're trying to vary speedor the angles or the distances and
the equipment you're using,you add in there when. And the challenges
(01:51):
of all the, you know, themight be parsnip. If you're up in
the driftless area ofWisconsin here, the rhododendron
and all the COVID on thestream like a cave, you have to adapt
all these challenges and motorsystems to adapt to it. And what
tends to happen is, you know,a lot of times when When I first
got in this rodeo, when I waslike in my early 20s and I'd go to
(02:14):
like St. Louis, Kansas City,and I was doing all these clubs across
the country and it was likethey go to the park and they practice
six hours of like pick up andlay down. Pick up and lay down. Well,
that's, that's all contextdependent. And so what tends to happen
when they practice under theseideal conditions in the park? When
there's no wind, when there'sno trees, everything's wide open
(02:35):
and the variability factorreally starts to suffer. Then you
put them in a situation whereyou have all these things and of
course it's going to lead towhat, frustration. So yeah, I think
that that helps a lot with,while practice and retention tends
to, tends to help better forlike the, the more situations, you
know, on the water, no matterwhat you're doing, I don't care if
(02:57):
it's salt water, I don't careif you're throwing under mangroves
or I don't care if it'sMontana with wind. I don't, I mean,
it's all relatable, isn't it?It's all the same thing. You got,
you got wind everywhere.You're going to have surroundings
everywhere. Sometimes it'sopen, sometimes it's not. Usually
it's not where I fish anyway.Usually it's not. So we have to deal
with variability every, every day.
(03:17):
Yeah. And so if you kind ofwork through that, if you talk about,
you know, the foundationalcasting stroke, and Mac and I have
worked on just a, you know,the, the most basic, you know, vertical,
forward and backward cast. Andthen you talk about varying, you
know, some of the three P'sand that evolution as to what Mac
is talking about is I'm in afishing situation. You say, well,
what am I trying toaccomplish? And you know, you won't
(03:40):
have the foundational strokenecessarily, but you'll know how
to vary that stroke to achievethe object, your fishing objective
on the water.
That's right. Yeah. So I mean,the variability just by something
as simple. That's what came upwhen you just said that. I just thought
of something else. How manytimes in guiding over the last 40
something years, we say,Marvin, there's a tree in back. You
(04:03):
tell, you tell somebody thatyou, you just told them there's a
tree in back. But if they'vepracticed at the park, back to that
example, and they've donethousands of pickup and lay downs
and that's the way the, themyelination in Their body wants to
fire every time what's goingto happen? And they're going to probably
still throw, even though youtold them they're still going to
throw it straight back. That'swhat they know. So I would, I would
(04:24):
make the argument that even incasting stuff that happens a lot
where, where, where peoplehave practice something a lot to
reproduce of really what we.What I call context dependency. It's
like that's the context of allthe situation they've practiced.
And it leads to very littleability to adapt to the surroundings
(04:47):
around them when that's thecase. Because I always thought like,
what's going on? Did you nothear me? There's a tree in back.
The tree's not moving, is it?So, yeah, that used to happen a lot.
And it used to reallyfrustrate my 20s, 30s, 40. Cause
you just told the person theystill did it anyway. So then you
ask yourself, well, what partof that did you miss about the tree,
Marvin? Then you tell me whatyou missed. So you see what I mean
(05:10):
by context, attention. Doesthat kind of. Does that kind of resonate?
Yeah, it does. And if youthink about, like, if you take the
foundational. Let's take anexample. So let's say you're in a
situation on the water whereyou need to throw either a positive
or a negative curve cast. Right?
Right.
So you say, well, here's thefoundational stroke. Well, I know
I can throw a curve either bymy power applic. Right. Or by my
(05:31):
rod path. And so then you'reon the water to your point, like,
hey, I've got this problem.You say, well, I know I can't do
the foundational stroke thatI've been practicing, you know, on
the football field, but I doknow that how to vary path or power.
And I throw that curve cast.And that's really what we're talking
about. And that's a way easierthing than for every possible context
(05:51):
you have memorizing exactlyhow to do it exactly.
You know, that's a greatexample. And that's the fun part
of it really boils down tojust the amount of creativity that
variability can bring intoyour game, to where all these problems
that people call problemsearly on become, you know, old hat
(06:13):
after a while when they, whenthey start to really appreciate the
variability and why they'redoing it. That's. That's going to
create a much, much moreefficient angler for dealing with,
you know, changing conditionsaround them. Yeah, they're going
to be able to adapt, you know,I mean, they're going to be able
to adapt this so quickly. It'sjust flawlessly, seamlessly adaptation,
(06:33):
because they're able to dothat and a lot of people aren't.
I mean, that's why I likethis, this whole topic. I think it's
a good. It's a good topic fora podcast just to talk about the
necessity of havingvariability where it starts. And
that's back in the, in thegrass area. You know, it starts back,
not just on the water. That'spart of the problem. Everybody wants
to try to do it on the water.Well, a lot of these things are learned
(06:55):
on the grass, you know what Imean? For, for. For those that are,
like, new to a lot of thoseconcepts, it's a whole lot easier
to learn it on the grass,where you get confident in that ability.
Yeah. And I think it's great,right? So, like, you know, once you've
worked and you've kind of gotthe good foundational groove and
you kind of understand themechanics, I mean, just go out to
max point on the field andsay, well, can I try this? How does
that work? Right? And justplay around with it and say, you
(07:18):
know, we, as we alwaysadvocate, it's better to. To practice
a lot of times for reallyshort periods of time. You know,
just go out for 15 or 20minutes and just say, well, hey,
I want to see how much I cando this. Like, whether it's, you
know, playing with power onloops and like, you know, take the
power off until the loopcollapses and then you kind of understand
that, or, you know, hey, Iwonder if I can, like, manipulate
where I put the curve in thefly line. How do I do that? Right?
(07:42):
And those are. That's justkind of how you do it. And then you
just kind of, you know, yougot to eat the pie one bite at a
time, right? So you just startdoing that, and next thing you know,
if you, if you're consistentabout practice, like we always preach,
then you look down and you'vegot a toolbox with a lot of great
tools in it.
That's right. No, that. Thatmakes a huge difference for helping,
(08:02):
Helping solve things, youknow, in those, in those stages where
people are, like, trying tofigure these things out. And I think
that's a really good. It's areally good approach. It's not just
in the. For the angler, Imean, trying to solve this stuff,
but also in teaching. I mean,it has to be variable teaching to
produce a. A great result.Nothing in teaching can happen with
(08:24):
the mundane blocked. What wecall blocked practice. You know,
when we're talking about blockpractice practices like Marvin, go
out and do a pickup and laydown 500 times. What. I mean, if
you did that every time youpractice for 40 years, what would
you have? You'd have a goodpickup and lay down with zero variability
from it. That kind of makes.That kind of helps talk about the
(08:49):
differences, you know. Thenwhen you talk about random variable,
then you got, you got thatplus a whole bunch of kitchen sinks
to add on top of it. Now yougot adapt, adaptability.
Yeah, well. And you become aproblem solver on the water, which
I think is kind of what somany people are trying to do. Right?
That's exactly it.
And lots of different ways toskin that cat. And so, you know,
it's kind of funny, we're inthe middle of September and DH will
(09:13):
be here before you know it.And so folks, you know, get out and
practice. But I would alsosay, too, Mac, I know you're. You're
running God trips. You've gota school coming up. You got all kinds
of stuff. You want to letfolks know a little bit about that
and where to find all thatgood stuff.
Yeah, that'd be great. It'sthe 15th to 19th. We've got a school
here for. That's the dates inOctober. And then the 24th, 26th,
(09:35):
we head to Mountain Home withDavey, Davey Watten. And we're going
to run a. A school out thereon Mountain Home. So we're looking
forward to both of those. Andthat was a great, you know, a great
weekend this last weekend. Ireally enjoyed it. I had to. I had
to rest a lot today, Marvin,because I was actually. I was actually
still tired from Saturday andSunday, for sure.
Yeah, well, it was, it wasn'tnecessarily. It was a little warm,
(09:58):
but it was, you know, whenyou're outside like that, you know,
eight plus hours a day, ittakes it out of you.
Yeah, I felt like it today.
Yeah. And so, you know,remember folks, that Mac really likes
smoke signals and he likesemail, but don't communicate with
them on social media becauseyou might not hear back from him
for a while. Right, Mac?
That's right. Yeah. So that'sthe best way to get me email or text.
(10:18):
And I look at those a lot oftimes, I don't see stuff on the other
very much. So. That's great.Smoke signal works too.
Yeah. Do you have a preferredcolor smoke signal?
Well, you're a little bit farto see it from Charlotte, but if
you were up like in thenational park. I can definitely see
it.
You're gonna call, like, you,like, this is my yellow smoke, my
purple smoke, or my green smoke?
(10:39):
Yeah, no, that's it. But,yeah, we're looking forward to those
coming up, and I'm reallylooking forward to fall. I got to
do a couple hours walk, acouple hours before we started the
podcast. I'll tell you, we'realready seeing color. I mean, there's
a lot of leaves already comingdown up there that have, you know,
that always happens. The earlyones fall. But we're starting to
(11:00):
see some color on a lot of themaples and sycamore. Poison ivy starting
to turn yellow. You'restarting to see a lot of color change
right now, so I'm lookingforward to the colors coming.
Yeah. So, folks, as I alwayssay, you need to beat the leaf peepers.
You need to get out there andcatch a few tight lines, everybody.
Tight lines, Mag.
Tight lines. Marvin.
Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of The Articulate Fly. And
we're back with anotherCasting Angles with Mac Brown. Mac,
how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. And you know, it's
kind of funny I got to spendsome time with you this weekend at
your advanced line controlclass and had a good time and it
kind of gave us an idea forthis week to talk about building
(00:24):
a strong foundation and thenhow to vary off that. And it doesn't
apply just to casting. It kindof applies to everything in fly fishing,
right?
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think that'sa good, that's a great topic. And
kind of like, kind of likewhen we're timber framing and talking
about foundations and what,what's going to stand on top of that
foundation and, you know, whatyou can do with it. So I think that's
(00:45):
going to be a good thing forthe talk to talk for the podcast
tonight.
Yeah, and I think so. Youknow, kind of part of this too, folks,
is what we try to do is wetend to have a tendency to like,
try to remember a ton ofdifferent little itty bitty pieces
of information and they're notreally related. And you know, in
casting, if you can kind ofcome up with a foundational casting
stroke, then we can talk aboutdoing all sorts of things off of
(01:08):
that based on just varying,you know, we, you know, we were going
back and forth, we startedrecording, we could talk about, you
know, power path and pause,but, you know, basically, you know,
variations off of that. But ifyou don't have that core understanding,
it makes it really hard toeasily move to those variations.
Right, Mac?
That's exactly right. Yeah.Because think about, I mean, to apply
(01:30):
this, I mean, to what we do inour sport of fly fishing and casting.
It's all about, you know, you,you dealing with all the external
surroundings and the situationyou're in. So, so what that means
for what you're trying to dowith the string on a bendy stick,
if you're trying to vary speedor the angles or the distances and
the equipment you're using,you add in there when. And the challenges
(01:51):
of all the, you know, themight be parsnip. If you're up in
the driftless area ofWisconsin here, the rhododendron
and all the COVID on thestream like a cave, you have to adapt
all these challenges and motorsystems to adapt to it. And what
tends to happen is, you know,a lot of times when When I first
got in this rodeo, when I waslike in my early 20s and I'd go to
(02:14):
like St. Louis, Kansas City,and I was doing all these clubs across
the country and it was likethey go to the park and they practice
six hours of like pick up andlay down. Pick up and lay down. Well,
that's, that's all contextdependent. And so what tends to happen
when they practice under theseideal conditions in the park? When
there's no wind, when there'sno trees, everything's wide open
(02:35):
and the variability factorreally starts to suffer. Then you
put them in a situation whereyou have all these things and of
course it's going to lead towhat, frustration. So yeah, I think
that that helps a lot with,while practice and retention tends
to, tends to help better forlike the, the more situations, you
know, on the water, no matterwhat you're doing, I don't care if
(02:57):
it's salt water, I don't careif you're throwing under mangroves
or I don't care if it'sMontana with wind. I don't, I mean,
it's all relatable, isn't it?It's all the same thing. You got,
you got wind everywhere.You're going to have surroundings
everywhere. Sometimes it'sopen, sometimes it's not. Usually
it's not where I fish anyway.Usually it's not. So we have to deal
with variability every, every day.
(03:17):
Yeah. And so if you kind ofwork through that, if you talk about,
you know, the foundationalcasting stroke, and Mac and I have
worked on just a, you know,the, the most basic, you know, vertical,
forward and backward cast. Andthen you talk about varying, you
know, some of the three P'sand that evolution as to what Mac
is talking about is I'm in afishing situation. You say, well,
what am I trying toaccomplish? And you know, you won't
(03:40):
have the foundational strokenecessarily, but you'll know how
to vary that stroke to achievethe object, your fishing objective
on the water.
That's right. Yeah. So I mean,the variability just by something
as simple. That's what came upwhen you just said that. I just thought
of something else. How manytimes in guiding over the last 40
something years, we say,Marvin, there's a tree in back. You
(04:03):
tell, you tell somebody thatyou, you just told them there's a
tree in back. But if they'vepracticed at the park, back to that
example, and they've donethousands of pickup and lay downs
and that's the way the, themyelination in Their body wants to
fire every time what's goingto happen? And they're going to probably
still throw, even though youtold them they're still going to
throw it straight back. That'swhat they know. So I would, I would
(04:24):
make the argument that even incasting stuff that happens a lot
where, where, where peoplehave practice something a lot to
reproduce of really what we.What I call context dependency. It's
like that's the context of allthe situation they've practiced.
And it leads to very littleability to adapt to the surroundings
(04:47):
around them when that's thecase. Because I always thought like,
what's going on? Did you nothear me? There's a tree in back.
The tree's not moving, is it?So, yeah, that used to happen a lot.
And it used to reallyfrustrate my 20s, 30s, 40. Cause
you just told the person theystill did it anyway. So then you
ask yourself, well, what partof that did you miss about the tree,
Marvin? Then you tell me whatyou missed. So you see what I mean
(05:10):
by context, attention. Doesthat kind of. Does that kind of resonate?
Yeah, it does. And if youthink about, like, if you take the
foundational. Let's take anexample. So let's say you're in a
situation on the water whereyou need to throw either a positive
or a negative curve cast. Right?
Right.
So you say, well, here's thefoundational stroke. Well, I know
I can throw a curve either bymy power applic. Right. Or by my
(05:31):
rod path. And so then you'reon the water to your point, like,
hey, I've got this problem.You say, well, I know I can't do
the foundational stroke thatI've been practicing, you know, on
the football field, but I doknow that how to vary path or power.
And I throw that curve cast.And that's really what we're talking
about. And that's a way easierthing than for every possible context
(05:51):
you have memorizing exactlyhow to do it exactly.
You know, that's a greatexample. And that's the fun part
of it really boils down tojust the amount of creativity that
variability can bring intoyour game, to where all these problems
that people call problemsearly on become, you know, old hat
(06:13):
after a while when they, whenthey start to really appreciate the
variability and why they'redoing it. That's. That's going to
create a much, much moreefficient angler for dealing with,
you know, changing conditionsaround them. Yeah, they're going
to be able to adapt, you know,I mean, they're going to be able
to adapt this so quickly. It'sjust flawlessly, seamlessly adaptation,
(06:33):
because they're able to dothat and a lot of people aren't.
I mean, that's why I likethis, this whole topic. I think it's
a good. It's a good topic fora podcast just to talk about the
necessity of havingvariability where it starts. And
that's back in the, in thegrass area. You know, it starts back,
not just on the water. That'spart of the problem. Everybody wants
to try to do it on the water.Well, a lot of these things are learned
(06:55):
on the grass, you know what Imean? For, for. For those that are,
like, new to a lot of thoseconcepts, it's a whole lot easier
to learn it on the grass,where you get confident in that ability.
Yeah. And I think it's great,right? So, like, you know, once you've
worked and you've kind of gotthe good foundational groove and
you kind of understand themechanics, I mean, just go out to
max point on the field andsay, well, can I try this? How does
that work? Right? And justplay around with it and say, you
(07:18):
know, we, as we alwaysadvocate, it's better to. To practice
a lot of times for reallyshort periods of time. You know,
just go out for 15 or 20minutes and just say, well, hey,
I want to see how much I cando this. Like, whether it's, you
know, playing with power onloops and like, you know, take the
power off until the loopcollapses and then you kind of understand
that, or, you know, hey, Iwonder if I can, like, manipulate
where I put the curve in thefly line. How do I do that? Right?
(07:42):
And those are. That's justkind of how you do it. And then you
just kind of, you know, yougot to eat the pie one bite at a
time, right? So you just startdoing that, and next thing you know,
if you, if you're consistentabout practice, like we always preach,
then you look down and you'vegot a toolbox with a lot of great
tools in it.
That's right. No, that. Thatmakes a huge difference for helping,
(08:02):
Helping solve things, youknow, in those, in those stages where
people are, like, trying tofigure these things out. And I think
that's a really good. It's areally good approach. It's not just
in the. For the angler, Imean, trying to solve this stuff,
but also in teaching. I mean,it has to be variable teaching to
produce a. A great result.Nothing in teaching can happen with
(08:24):
the mundane blocked. What wecall blocked practice. You know,
when we're talking about blockpractice practices like Marvin, go
out and do a pickup and laydown 500 times. What. I mean, if
you did that every time youpractice for 40 years, what would
you have? You'd have a goodpickup and lay down with zero variability
from it. That kind of makes.That kind of helps talk about the
(08:49):
differences, you know. Thenwhen you talk about random variable,
then you got, you got thatplus a whole bunch of kitchen sinks
to add on top of it. Now yougot adapt, adaptability.
Yeah, well. And you become aproblem solver on the water, which
I think is kind of what somany people are trying to do. Right?
That's exactly it.
And lots of different ways toskin that cat. And so, you know,
it's kind of funny, we're inthe middle of September and DH will
(09:13):
be here before you know it.And so folks, you know, get out and
practice. But I would alsosay, too, Mac, I know you're. You're
running God trips. You've gota school coming up. You got all kinds
of stuff. You want to letfolks know a little bit about that
and where to find all thatgood stuff.
Yeah, that'd be great. It'sthe 15th to 19th. We've got a school
here for. That's the dates inOctober. And then the 24th, 26th,
(09:35):
we head to Mountain Home withDavey, Davey Watten. And we're going
to run a. A school out thereon Mountain Home. So we're looking
forward to both of those. Andthat was a great, you know, a great
weekend this last weekend. Ireally enjoyed it. I had to. I had
to rest a lot today, Marvin,because I was actually. I was actually
still tired from Saturday andSunday, for sure.
Yeah, well, it was, it wasn'tnecessarily. It was a little warm,
(09:58):
but it was, you know, whenyou're outside like that, you know,
eight plus hours a day, ittakes it out of you.
Yeah, I felt like it today.
Yeah. And so, you know,remember folks, that Mac really likes
smoke signals and he likesemail, but don't communicate with
them on social media becauseyou might not hear back from him
for a while. Right, Mac?
That's right. Yeah. So that'sthe best way to get me email or text.
(10:18):
And I look at those a lot oftimes, I don't see stuff on the other
very much. So. That's great.Smoke signal works too.
Yeah. Do you have a preferredcolor smoke signal?
Well, you're a little bit farto see it from Charlotte, but if
you were up like in thenational park. I can definitely see
it.
You're gonna call, like, you,like, this is my yellow smoke, my
purple smoke, or my green smoke?
(10:39):
Yeah, no, that's it. But,yeah, we're looking forward to those
coming up, and I'm reallylooking forward to fall. I got to
do a couple hours walk, acouple hours before we started the
podcast. I'll tell you, we'realready seeing color. I mean, there's
a lot of leaves already comingdown up there that have, you know,
that always happens. The earlyones fall. But we're starting to
(11:00):
see some color on a lot of themaples and sycamore. Poison ivy starting
to turn yellow. You'restarting to see a lot of color change
right now, so I'm lookingforward to the colors coming.
Yeah. So, folks, as I alwayssay, you need to beat the leaf peepers.
You need to get out there andcatch a few tight lines, everybody.
Tight lines, Mag.
Tight lines. Marvin.
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CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Dateline NBC
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