October 2, 2025 • 10 mins
In this episode of The Articulate Fly fly fishing podcast, host Marvin Cash reconnects with guide Mac Brown for another Casting Angles segment focused on North Carolina's delayed harvest season.
With the first Saturday in October marking the start of DH fishing across Western North Carolina waters, Mac shares tactical insights for success throughout the fall and winter.
He explains how stocked trout behavior evolves rapidly—while "junk food" patterns work during the initial week, fish quickly become educated and demand more sophisticated presentations. Mac reveals his preferred approach: small dry flies (size 18-20) paired with wet fly droppers, which outperform the indicator rigs that 95% of anglers rely on.
He emphasizes egg patterns as consistently productive throughout winter as trout focus on spawning activity and recommends fishing them without suspension devices for direct contact.
The conversation covers why stocked fish look up due to hatchery feeding habits, the importance of natural presentation sink rates versus heavy tungsten beads and how to differentiate your tactics as fishing pressure increases.
Mac also announces his upcoming class and show schedule.
Related Content
S6, Ep 130 - Casting in Color: Mac Brown's Fall Fly Fishing Strategies
S6, Ep 136 - From Arkansas to Appalachia: Fly Fishing with Mac Brown
S6, Ep 145 - Navigating Winter Waters: Unconventional Strategies with Mac Brown
S6, Ep 141 - Mastering Cold Weather Fly Fishing with Mac Brown
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of The Articulate Fly. We're
back with another CastingAngles with the man himself, Mac
Brown. Mac, how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. And you know, as
we slide into pumpkin spicelatte land, that means one thing
in western North Carolina, itmeans delayed harvest.
Delayed harvest is coming upquick. Yeah, First Saturday in October
(00:28):
and the schedule is going tobe listed up on the North Carolina
Wildlife Resource Commission.So everybody can look for their favorite
stream from Tucker, CG andWebster to, you know, there's all
kinds of them up at Nanahala.You can go on there and find out
the perfect, you know, datewhat they estimate and they're usually
pretty close to doing it onthe dates they estimate.
(00:48):
Yeah, and I would say too, youknow, it's kind of, it's interesting
because I know a lot of peopledon't fish for bass and Bremen stuff
during the summertime. So thisis really, for a lot of people in
North Carolina, it's their reentry into fall fly fishing. And
you know, the great thing iswhen those fish first get stocked,
they're not very educated,shall we say. And so you can kind
of feed them a lot of junkfood and have a lot of success, right?
(01:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, it'd be good,it'd be good for people coming in
from, from far and away andyeah, they'll get a lot of success
and they'll feel big about,you know, there'll be a lot of, a
lot of good, good moments andmemories. And then after they've
been picked on for a couple ofweeks and it'll turn where you gotta
be doing what they want. Andthey'll figure it out pretty quick.
(01:31):
Like once they get hit reallythe first week or so, they'll start
adjusting. I mean we get a lotof hatches still in the fall and
like, like October Catus andthings will be coming off and they'll
start tuning in on that stuff.And a lot of times in the fall they
tune in, there's still a lotof like really small midges and things
going on. And those fish willtune in from the unpleasant experience
(01:53):
of getting, you know, asquirmy worm five times in a week.
And it'll be like, I'm noteating another red worm. And then
they'll, they'll tune in onthat real small stuff, like the 22,
24 size mid stuff. And if youreally want to get technical with
it, you can go in there andstill catch those same fish then.
And fish. The real tiny stuff,what they've adjusted to, because
(02:14):
they'll eat a lot of junkfood, you know, the first week, and
everybody's a winner, youknow, the first week. But once that
first week is over, it's goingto get. It'll get tough real quick
because it brings a lot ofpeople supply and demand. You know,
the people are plentiful, andthey've hit them hard. So then those
fish have to adjust becausethey don't like getting hooked on
(02:35):
all that stuff, you know, sothey'll get. They'll actually get
harder than if you just wentup and probably fished a wild stream,
you know, they'll get harderto catch. Yeah.
It's interesting, too, right,because when they first get stocked,
they're all potted up. So,like, you know, a lot of times, if
you go out kind of early inthe DH season, you kind of have to
hunt around to find the fishbecause they haven't really spread
out to kind of like, we'lljust say normal kind of, you know,
(02:58):
fishing lies, Right.
Yep. Yeah. They'll start to.They'll start to spread out after
that first week, too. The potwill stay together, and then they
start to spread out, and it'slike you can do. Yeah. When they're
still potted up, you just gotto think about, how do I be. How
can I be different? And allyou got to do is go out there and
look in the daytime. If you'recoming up from out of state or even
(03:21):
if you live close to WesternCarolina, where all these DH programs
happen, Just look and see whateverybody's doing the first week.
And you want to be different.You don't want to do the same thing
they're doing, because after aweek, that stuff's not going to work.
And of course, you usually.What happens is they do it again
in November, and then theystock it again in December. Then
they quit in January, andthey'll come back and do it again
(03:43):
in March, you know, sobasically, just look and see what
everybody's doing and dosomething other. Because whatever
everybody's doing is usuallynot what you want to be doing. Once
they've been hit, you know,hard the first week, you want to
do something different, youknow, so if it's a small dry fly
or if it's a. Think aboutthis. So if everybody's throwing
a bobber, right, and they'relobbing a bobber 10ft over the side
(04:06):
and they got their squirmyworm and their girdle bug down deep.
And then all of a suddenthat's not working. What do you want
to do different? Maybe throw awet fly, Maybe throw a dry dropper
dropper. Maybe do somethingthat's a little more stealthy. That's
not just like this big floatgoing over top of them. And that's
what about 95% of the peopledo is use an indicator. And I think
a lot of times with the dh,the key to success is not copying
(04:29):
what the majority's doing. Be,be individualistic and try to do
your own thing, you know.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of stoneflies and pheasant tails.
Yeah, that'd be good. I mean,that'd be a good thing. And of course
junk food and stuff will workgood at first and then it starts,
it stops working as good. Andof course going into the winter,
(04:50):
what's, what's a real commonthing throughout the, the world going
into the winter season is, isegg patterns. I mean, because fish
are getting ready to spawn, sothey're all like thinking about eggs
even if, even if they hadn'tbegun to, begun to spawn. You know,
your orange and your pinks andyour, your egg patterns that are
common colors like the yellowegg, all those are really good tactic,
(05:12):
you know. Cause you can go inthere any day of the week, even when
they've been hit. And if youfished an egg pattern without a bobber,
you can do pretty well. Imean, you can do really well all
through the wintertime onthose DH programs, just fishing eggs.
I mean, eggs really. I don'tknow. In my opinion, eggs are king
through the winter becausethat's what they're looking for.
Yeah, you can fish a Y2K andyou don't even have to use split
(05:35):
shot.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's agood tactic. And it, but, but it's
a big difference. You know,fishing that straight, straight to
the rod tip without having asuspension device, you know, that
works really well. I mean, itworks well I mean, even on wild fish
like up on the Holston Wataugaor here, it works well whether it's
(05:55):
a DH or not a dh. I mean,because you're in contact to it and
of course fish are looking forit. And I'd be hard pressed to say
yeah. I mean some peoplethink, well, that's junk food. And
they think all these thingsare junk food. You know, girdlebug
junk food, my flies, junkfood. Well, what those fish want
is junk food. Okay. If youwant to come up there and do well,
early on, then probably youought to join the crowd and throw
(06:18):
junk food if you want to see alot of numbers of fish in the beginning
stages, you know, and thenmove to natural the more and more
that goes on. But what I'msaying is there is certain junk foods
that stay good the whole time.An egg pattern tends to be one of
those.
Yeah, but you know, also too,you got to remember, like, a girdle
bug is a stonefly imitation,right. And mop flies are crane fly
(06:41):
larvae. And, you know, thoseare common forage items. I would
also say, too, that, you know,on the wild versus stock thing, those
stock fish have a tendency tolike to look up. Cause they're used
to being fed pellets in a hatchery.
That's right. That's where dryfly comes into play. Like, dry fly.
Like just a single dry flywith a. You know, with a wet tag
below it with no weight atall. That does incredibly well. Like,
(07:04):
after these things get beat upa little bit, that's really my favorite
go to. It's a small, small dryfly with a small wet underneath it.
When I say small wet, I'mtalking like 20. I mean, when I say
everybody thinks, oh, big. Youmean like on the lakes, you know,
throwing size 10 or 12. So.No, I mean, like, 18 to 20 can do
really well because you get alot of blue wings and stuff heading
(07:25):
into the colder season. Andthose work really well. And they
feel safe about it becauseit's. It's not like dropping down
real quick with, you know,tungsten bead and all this. I mean,
that's really kind ofrepulsive when you think about it,
to wild fish. I think a lot oftimes people throw too heavy, you
know, weight on it to where itgoes down so fast. It. It's kind
(07:46):
of like it's not natural iswhat I'm trying to say. So you throw
something like that, and itmakes a little splash, and it's sinking
at a rate that's unattainableby a natural insect. And the wild
fish will look at that and go,yeah, I'm not gonna try that. You
know, but if it's undulatingand it. It's free to move without
having that kind of weight,you know, that's why I. I really
(08:08):
prefer. Even still, like, I. Ireally like wet fly fishing a lot.
And there's a time and a placefor it to where I feel like it's
the best thing out there.
Yeah, absolutely. You know,it's interesting too, right? Because
I know you're seeing itbecause I talked to you or on the
river today with clients, youknow, you got an uptick in guiding,
but you've also got someclasses. And then we're going to
travel together out toArkansas, I guess not this month,
(08:30):
but towards the end next month.
That's right. Yeah. We got theschool still in October 15th. And
then after that we go to seeDavey down there in Mountain Home.
The. What is that? The 25th,26th, 27th, I think. Friday, Saturday,
Sunday. Is that it? Or 24th, I think.
I think it's 4, 5 and 6.
(08:51):
Okay, 4, 5 and 6. And then.Then we get to. Well, it'll be up
to you. We might stay a day.We might come back right after we
get done, depending on what weget time to fish for. Because you
got. You have anotherengagement, you said. But yeah, I'm
looking forward to getting outthere. That's a great time of year
to be on the light. And thosefish will be willing. They'll definitely
be a lot of willing fish outthere. And that's. That's just such
(09:14):
a good fishery with as far asfish count per mile and in big fish
per mile. It's just like. It'sjust like a kind of a fairy tale,
you know. That's where Istarted, I told you that I think
on one of these few weeks ago.But that's where I started when I
was a kid in the early 60swith my granddad. So the White River's
got a special place in myheart all these years, you know.
(09:35):
Yeah, it'll be interesting.I've actually never been down there.
You want to let folks know ifthey want to get in the boat for
a guide trip or casting lessonor if you got slots left in any of
your schools where they should go.
Yeah, the. The menu item isunderneath the specialty classes
on the menu at the top. AndMacBrownFlyfish.com is where they
(09:56):
can find out all theinformation on Show Season 2. I just
put up all the new 26 showsfor next year on that as well, which
we're gonna do all the flyfishing shows and got a couple other
things that people talkingabout for other commitments there
in 26. And it'll have all thedates for everything. So that's the
best place to find out theneither message or email or send a
(10:19):
smoke signal, as Marvin says.
Yeah, well, it's a good timeof year, right, because the leaves
are going to start to fall andthey're going to be wet. It's a great
time to send smoke signals.
Oh, yeah, smoke signals goingto be good. Coming up.
Or they could always hit youup on your ham radio, right?
Yeah, the ham radio is good,too. I do a lot of ham radio every
night. I mean, I like. I likedoing a lot of radio at night. And.
Yeah, if you're a ham radiooperator, send me a PM on that. We'll
(10:43):
send you the. Send you thecall signs and everything. Where
to be.
Yeah. Well, there you go.Well, folks, as always, say yo to
yourself to get out there andcatch a few tight lines, everybody.
Tight lines, Mac.
Tight lines, Marvin.
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash,the host of The Articulate Fly. We're
back with another CastingAngles with the man himself, Mac
Brown. Mac, how are you?
I'm doing great. How are youdoing, Marvin?
As always, just trying to stayout of trouble. And you know, as
we slide into pumpkin spicelatte land, that means one thing
in western North Carolina, itmeans delayed harvest.
Delayed harvest is coming upquick. Yeah, First Saturday in October
(00:28):
and the schedule is going tobe listed up on the North Carolina
Wildlife Resource Commission.So everybody can look for their favorite
stream from Tucker, CG andWebster to, you know, there's all
kinds of them up at Nanahala.You can go on there and find out
the perfect, you know, datewhat they estimate and they're usually
pretty close to doing it onthe dates they estimate.
(00:48):
Yeah, and I would say too, youknow, it's kind of, it's interesting
because I know a lot of peopledon't fish for bass and Bremen stuff
during the summertime. So thisis really, for a lot of people in
North Carolina, it's their reentry into fall fly fishing. And
you know, the great thing iswhen those fish first get stocked,
they're not very educated,shall we say. And so you can kind
of feed them a lot of junkfood and have a lot of success, right?
(01:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, it'd be good,it'd be good for people coming in
from, from far and away andyeah, they'll get a lot of success
and they'll feel big about,you know, there'll be a lot of, a
lot of good, good moments andmemories. And then after they've
been picked on for a couple ofweeks and it'll turn where you gotta
be doing what they want. Andthey'll figure it out pretty quick.
(01:31):
Like once they get hit reallythe first week or so, they'll start
adjusting. I mean we get a lotof hatches still in the fall and
like, like October Catus andthings will be coming off and they'll
start tuning in on that stuff.And a lot of times in the fall they
tune in, there's still a lotof like really small midges and things
going on. And those fish willtune in from the unpleasant experience
(01:53):
of getting, you know, asquirmy worm five times in a week.
And it'll be like, I'm noteating another red worm. And then
they'll, they'll tune in onthat real small stuff, like the 22,
24 size mid stuff. And if youreally want to get technical with
it, you can go in there andstill catch those same fish then.
And fish. The real tiny stuff,what they've adjusted to, because
(02:14):
they'll eat a lot of junkfood, you know, the first week, and
everybody's a winner, youknow, the first week. But once that
first week is over, it's goingto get. It'll get tough real quick
because it brings a lot ofpeople supply and demand. You know,
the people are plentiful, andthey've hit them hard. So then those
fish have to adjust becausethey don't like getting hooked on
(02:35):
all that stuff, you know, sothey'll get. They'll actually get
harder than if you just wentup and probably fished a wild stream,
you know, they'll get harderto catch. Yeah.
It's interesting, too, right,because when they first get stocked,
they're all potted up. So,like, you know, a lot of times, if
you go out kind of early inthe DH season, you kind of have to
hunt around to find the fishbecause they haven't really spread
out to kind of like, we'lljust say normal kind of, you know,
(02:58):
fishing lies, Right.
Yep. Yeah. They'll start to.They'll start to spread out after
that first week, too. The potwill stay together, and then they
start to spread out, and it'slike you can do. Yeah. When they're
still potted up, you just gotto think about, how do I be. How
can I be different? And allyou got to do is go out there and
look in the daytime. If you'recoming up from out of state or even
(03:21):
if you live close to WesternCarolina, where all these DH programs
happen, Just look and see whateverybody's doing the first week.
And you want to be different.You don't want to do the same thing
they're doing, because after aweek, that stuff's not going to work.
And of course, you usually.What happens is they do it again
in November, and then theystock it again in December. Then
they quit in January, andthey'll come back and do it again
(03:43):
in March, you know, sobasically, just look and see what
everybody's doing and dosomething other. Because whatever
everybody's doing is usuallynot what you want to be doing. Once
they've been hit, you know,hard the first week, you want to
do something different, youknow, so if it's a small dry fly
or if it's a. Think aboutthis. So if everybody's throwing
a bobber, right, and they'relobbing a bobber 10ft over the side
(04:06):
and they got their squirmyworm and their girdle bug down deep.
And then all of a suddenthat's not working. What do you want
to do different? Maybe throw awet fly, Maybe throw a dry dropper
dropper. Maybe do somethingthat's a little more stealthy. That's
not just like this big floatgoing over top of them. And that's
what about 95% of the peopledo is use an indicator. And I think
a lot of times with the dh,the key to success is not copying
(04:29):
what the majority's doing. Be,be individualistic and try to do
your own thing, you know.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of stoneflies and pheasant tails.
Yeah, that'd be good. I mean,that'd be a good thing. And of course
junk food and stuff will workgood at first and then it starts,
it stops working as good. Andof course going into the winter,
(04:50):
what's, what's a real commonthing throughout the, the world going
into the winter season is, isegg patterns. I mean, because fish
are getting ready to spawn, sothey're all like thinking about eggs
even if, even if they hadn'tbegun to, begun to spawn. You know,
your orange and your pinks andyour, your egg patterns that are
common colors like the yellowegg, all those are really good tactic,
(05:12):
you know. Cause you can go inthere any day of the week, even when
they've been hit. And if youfished an egg pattern without a bobber,
you can do pretty well. Imean, you can do really well all
through the wintertime onthose DH programs, just fishing eggs.
I mean, eggs really. I don'tknow. In my opinion, eggs are king
through the winter becausethat's what they're looking for.
Yeah, you can fish a Y2K andyou don't even have to use split
(05:35):
shot.
Yeah, no, I mean, that's agood tactic. And it, but, but it's
a big difference. You know,fishing that straight, straight to
the rod tip without having asuspension device, you know, that
works really well. I mean, itworks well I mean, even on wild fish
like up on the Holston Wataugaor here, it works well whether it's
(05:55):
a DH or not a dh. I mean,because you're in contact to it and
of course fish are looking forit. And I'd be hard pressed to say
yeah. I mean some peoplethink, well, that's junk food. And
they think all these thingsare junk food. You know, girdlebug
junk food, my flies, junkfood. Well, what those fish want
is junk food. Okay. If youwant to come up there and do well,
early on, then probably youought to join the crowd and throw
(06:18):
junk food if you want to see alot of numbers of fish in the beginning
stages, you know, and thenmove to natural the more and more
that goes on. But what I'msaying is there is certain junk foods
that stay good the whole time.An egg pattern tends to be one of
those.
Yeah, but you know, also too,you got to remember, like, a girdle
bug is a stonefly imitation,right. And mop flies are crane fly
(06:41):
larvae. And, you know, thoseare common forage items. I would
also say, too, that, you know,on the wild versus stock thing, those
stock fish have a tendency tolike to look up. Cause they're used
to being fed pellets in a hatchery.
That's right. That's where dryfly comes into play. Like, dry fly.
Like just a single dry flywith a. You know, with a wet tag
below it with no weight atall. That does incredibly well. Like,
(07:04):
after these things get beat upa little bit, that's really my favorite
go to. It's a small, small dryfly with a small wet underneath it.
When I say small wet, I'mtalking like 20. I mean, when I say
everybody thinks, oh, big. Youmean like on the lakes, you know,
throwing size 10 or 12. So.No, I mean, like, 18 to 20 can do
really well because you get alot of blue wings and stuff heading
(07:25):
into the colder season. Andthose work really well. And they
feel safe about it becauseit's. It's not like dropping down
real quick with, you know,tungsten bead and all this. I mean,
that's really kind ofrepulsive when you think about it,
to wild fish. I think a lot oftimes people throw too heavy, you
know, weight on it to where itgoes down so fast. It. It's kind
(07:46):
of like it's not natural iswhat I'm trying to say. So you throw
something like that, and itmakes a little splash, and it's sinking
at a rate that's unattainableby a natural insect. And the wild
fish will look at that and go,yeah, I'm not gonna try that. You
know, but if it's undulatingand it. It's free to move without
having that kind of weight,you know, that's why I. I really
(08:08):
prefer. Even still, like, I. Ireally like wet fly fishing a lot.
And there's a time and a placefor it to where I feel like it's
the best thing out there.
Yeah, absolutely. You know,it's interesting too, right? Because
I know you're seeing itbecause I talked to you or on the
river today with clients, youknow, you got an uptick in guiding,
but you've also got someclasses. And then we're going to
travel together out toArkansas, I guess not this month,
(08:30):
but towards the end next month.
That's right. Yeah. We got theschool still in October 15th. And
then after that we go to seeDavey down there in Mountain Home.
The. What is that? The 25th,26th, 27th, I think. Friday, Saturday,
Sunday. Is that it? Or 24th, I think.
I think it's 4, 5 and 6.
(08:51):
Okay, 4, 5 and 6. And then.Then we get to. Well, it'll be up
to you. We might stay a day.We might come back right after we
get done, depending on what weget time to fish for. Because you
got. You have anotherengagement, you said. But yeah, I'm
looking forward to getting outthere. That's a great time of year
to be on the light. And thosefish will be willing. They'll definitely
be a lot of willing fish outthere. And that's. That's just such
(09:14):
a good fishery with as far asfish count per mile and in big fish
per mile. It's just like. It'sjust like a kind of a fairy tale,
you know. That's where Istarted, I told you that I think
on one of these few weeks ago.But that's where I started when I
was a kid in the early 60swith my granddad. So the White River's
got a special place in myheart all these years, you know.
(09:35):
Yeah, it'll be interesting.I've actually never been down there.
You want to let folks know ifthey want to get in the boat for
a guide trip or casting lessonor if you got slots left in any of
your schools where they should go.
Yeah, the. The menu item isunderneath the specialty classes
on the menu at the top. AndMacBrownFlyfish.com is where they
(09:56):
can find out all theinformation on Show Season 2. I just
put up all the new 26 showsfor next year on that as well, which
we're gonna do all the flyfishing shows and got a couple other
things that people talkingabout for other commitments there
in 26. And it'll have all thedates for everything. So that's the
best place to find out theneither message or email or send a
(10:19):
smoke signal, as Marvin says.
Yeah, well, it's a good timeof year, right, because the leaves
are going to start to fall andthey're going to be wet. It's a great
time to send smoke signals.
Oh, yeah, smoke signals goingto be good. Coming up.
Or they could always hit youup on your ham radio, right?
Yeah, the ham radio is good,too. I do a lot of ham radio every
night. I mean, I like. I likedoing a lot of radio at night. And.
Yeah, if you're a ham radiooperator, send me a PM on that. We'll
(10:43):
send you the. Send you thecall signs and everything. Where
to be.
Yeah. Well, there you go.Well, folks, as always, say yo to
yourself to get out there andcatch a few tight lines, everybody.
Tight lines, Mac.
Tight lines, Marvin.
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