March 20, 2024 • 68 mins
I truly believe caregivers are unsung heroes! That is why it is a privilege to talk with Sheila Clemenson who became a caregiver for her husband early into their relationship at the age of 26, when he was diagnosed with ALS. In this raw, authentic conversation we talk abut some of the tougher aspects of being a caregiver - the people pleasing trait, the guilt, the lack of self-care, and what happens after your loved one transitions. We also talk about getting a support network around us, finding the beauty in grief, the happiness, and allowing ourselves to have hope and dreams once again. If you've been having it tough in your grief, chances are you will have no problem connecting with this episode or with Sheila's recently released book - Over The Rainbow: From the Depths of Grief to Hope.
Sheila's Bio
Sheila Clemenson is the Founder/CEO of Transitions Coaching Services, LLC with over 25 years of expertise "moving you forward" through challenging transitions. She is a Certified Career Coach, HR Consultant and Grief Wellness professional.
Her book: Over the Rainbow: From the Depths of Grief to Hope is not just a book to support you through your grief journey, it's a heartfelt love letter from someone who has been there. Sheila Clemenson, the author, is no stranger to the profound pain of loss. After being a caregiver for several years and losing her first husband, Grant, at a young age to ALS, she fell into the grief pit herself.
This book is the culmination of Sheila's journey and wisdom over the years of healing, written to be your companion in grief. Through her personal experiences, practical exercises, and suggestions, you'll navigate the labyrinth of loss.
It's an affirmation that you too, can overcome challenging losses in your life, and bring your loved one's memories forward in new ways. You may even experience mystical messages from your loved ones that surprise you, much like rainbows, as you move forward in your life.
Quote:
"I was stumbling around in the dark looking for the light switch in my underwear for years." ~ Sheila Clemenson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
we're not living in our best self
(00:01):
when we're grieving.
We're really an automatic pilotof kind of what we default to when
we're not having a good day andwe're not living in our best selves.
So I think that knowing that,is really challenging, right?
And like I talk about the grief pit,I talk about falling in that hole.
(00:23):
And what I encourage peopleto do is just find resources
that can help you build hope.
You know, grab that hand that'sreaching down to you in the grief pit.
You can stay down there, but grab thehand and know you're going to come out.
Know that you don't have to staythere for the rest of your life.
(00:46):
Know that you don't have to staythere 24/7 and 24 hours a day.
You can come out.
And you may go back in, but just knowthat that darkness that you feel the
light will connect with you again.
(01:06):
And it's so hard forpeople to realize that.
I'm in awe of those special peoplewho have had to step up to being
caregivers through no choice of theirown to their loved ones who have a
(01:26):
progressive terminal illness or infact any condition that requires care.
It's a position that is often done withlove for that person they are caring
for, though it also has the capacity toturn life upside down and inside out.
My guest today on the Beautiful Sideof Grief, Sheila Clemenson, is one
such lady who has been on this journey.
(01:49):
Her first husband developed the musclewasting disease, amyotrophic lateral
sclerosis, which known as ALS or maybeyou even know it as Lou Gehrig's disease.
In a journey, Sheila hasused writing as therapy.
She founded and ran a grief retreat,helped her mum with a visiting angels
caregiving franchise before movinginto HR and which led her to finding
(02:13):
her passion as a transitions coach inher own business, Transitions coaching
services, where she is dedicated tohelping people move forward through the
challenging stages of career change.
Just recently, though, she's alsobecome an author after 24 years with
her own story, Over the Rainbow, Fromthe Depths of Grief to the End of Life.
(02:36):
She describes this book as more than justa tool for self discovery and healing.
It's an extended hand reachingout to you from someone who has
traversed the pit of grief and emergedstronger on the other side to hope.
It's about the resilience ofthe human spirit and hope.
(02:56):
The potential for redemption, evenin the darkest moments of life.
So we will chat about this and more.
Oh, and we're also going to have alook at the mystical things that can
happen when you lose a loved one.
So thanks for listening in today andlet's get into this conversation.
A very warm welcome to you, Sheila.
Oh my gosh.
(03:17):
I am so thrilled to be heresharing this time with you.
Thank you.
Very happy to have you here.
Hey, Sheila, just before we getinto this, this conversation,
I would love to know who your furbabies are and what their names are.
Yes.
So I have two beautiful fur babies, Rio.
She's 10.
(03:37):
She's a total mutt.
And we say she's a purebredmutt, a New Mexico variety,
as we'd say out here, rescue.
And then I've got another onewho is too named Zoe, who is a
half Husky, half German shepherd.
And she was a rescue also.
Aren't they treasures in your life
(03:58):
They're absolute treasures.
I call them dog angels.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah,
they are our earth angels inso many ways, aren't they?
Because they just come and give youunconditional love if you're open
to it and healing and they justhave this extra sense, I believe.
They do.
They do.
(04:18):
And my older girl, she's 10.
She just had a canceroustumor removed from her leg
and she's going to start chemo
in the beginning of January.
And so I'm being a littlebit of a caregiver right now.
Yeah,
role again.
Hey, speaking of that, just beforewe get into what your caregiving role
(04:40):
was like with your first husband,can we get an understanding of what
your life was like prior to ALS?
Oh,
basically, my background is in HR,industrial organizational psychology, and,
my first job out of college was workingfor Mazda research and development.
(05:03):
So I worked for an automotive industryin Detroit, really awesome position,
and, you one that I had a lot offun in and, that was my foothold
from a professional perspective.
I did a lot of HR work, and Iwas just having a really fun
time working for a big company.
Grant came into my life, honestly,whisked me off of my feet in
(05:27):
some whirlwind romance, that issomething out of a fairy tale.
And I was just, picked up by thischarming international salesman who,
then shortly after we met, moved toFrance and I was doing a long distance
relationship with him from Michiganto Paris, Saw him every three months.
(05:50):
And then after about a year and a half,I said, I don't want to do this anymore.
Like we're either going tobe together or we're not.
And I left my job.
I moved to the banlieue of Paris,which was Pontoise and I lived
there for four months, helpinghim finish out his assignment,
which when I look back on it now.
(06:10):
Was like that gift that we got of timetogether that was priceless when he
was fully healthy, we were able toexplore the world and we traveled to
a lot of different European countries.
And as well, I was traveling with himinternationally because that's the
foothold that he had in his career.
(06:32):
We had a very lively,Amazing life together.
He basically brought the worldto me and we were on adventures
traveling and having a lot of fun.
We were, I was in my mid twenties.
He was in his early thirtiesand, we had the world.
by the tail,
(06:53):
right?
magical.
So living in a very dreamy place
too.
Then I moved up to Northern Michigan, thisbeautiful town called Petoskey, which is
as quaint as it sounds off Lake Michigan.
It's absolutely beautiful.
Five months of the year, the otherseven, it's frigid, cold, and you
(07:15):
really don't want to be there.
So I was imported and I was,we were just building our life.
We, we got engaged, we bought ahouse, we were planning a wedding.
And then that's when the rugwas pulled out from under us.
Oh my gosh, that earlyinto your relationship,
(07:38):
Yes, I was 26.
He was 32.
We were planning a wedding and he hadbeen seeing an orthopedic specialist
than a neurologist because he washaving problems coordinating his feet.
He thought, maybe I'vejust skied too much.
Maybe I've messed my knees up.
And he came home one day.
(07:58):
As I was unpacking boxes in ournew home and he came to the kitchen
table and he put two pamphlets down.
He said, the neurologistsays I either have MS or ALS.
This is what they're all about.
And we really don't know right now untilI see the disease progress further.
(08:18):
I
Oh gosh, that must'vebeen just devastating.
How do you cope with that news?
Yeah.
that I probably shouldn't have said.
I was quite angry and I was quite angryat the doctor and quite honestly, how
the doctor communicated that news.
(08:40):
And I really hadn't shared this.
I haven't shared much ofthis with a lot of people.
She told him by himself, he drovehome by himself and, All I could
think was why would they not havehad a meeting with he and his
family or who he wanted to involve?
It was a callous way that she told himas well, which was like she was sharing
(09:02):
this mystery that she had solved and thehumanness of the whole experience was not.
Evident.
So I was really angry.
I was angry about the whole waythat it was handled and then
it was some denial and shock,
right?
(09:22):
Denial from a functional place of, maybethey're, they didn't get this right.
Or maybe, because at the time he washaving some symptoms, but it wasn't.
That he couldn't do so much ofeverything that he would normally do.
So it was just a thoughtof progression at first.
The shock piece was really,is this really happening?
(09:43):
Is this really what this is about?
And so Grant approached me andsaid, I really want to marry you,
but I don't want you to marry me.
Knowing where I'm going with this,and I don't want to do this to you.
And I basically told him, Isaid, I followed you all over
the world at this point in time.
I'm not going anywhere.
(10:04):
I'm going on this journey with you.
I'm committed to you and we're going to dothis together, whatever this looks like.
What was that journey like?
At one point in the journey, Grantsaid to me, honey, I think that you
bit off more than you could chew.
And I looked at him and Isaid, yes, I think that you're
(10:25):
right, but I'm still here.
But that is the reality of whatyou're dealing with, isn't it?
It's like I said, you didn't choose tobe a caregiver in that sense of the word.
And when you're suddenly thrustinto something you didn't choose,
it can be a rude awakening, can't
And the thing is I grew into beinga caregiver because the way this
(10:47):
disease progresses, It eventuallytakes that person's independence away.
It doesn't
happen all at once, right?
And so I would compromisefor things he couldn't do.
He couldn't open that jar or hecouldn't, do something in particular.
And so I was compensating for it.
(11:09):
And then over time, what really awfulhappened, you're going to just, I
don't know, you'll, I don't knowwhat you'll think when I tell you
this, but so Grant had moved intoan international sales manager role.
He was very.
He was an excellent businessman, okay?
He had a knack for coordinating histrips, even at just the right time.
(11:35):
He had planned a five week trip forus to do three weeks business between
New Zealand, North and South Island.
And Australia, we were going to do 2 weeksof vacation, 3 weeks of business all over
both
Places.
So we had planned our trip.
(11:56):
We were really excited.
I hadn't been to either place and Iknew what was waiting for me because he
told me all about New Zealand, right?
It's
liked it.
And, I was shopping for sometoiletries before you could do that
online, and I was paged at the localstore to come to the front desk.
(12:19):
And I came up and I saw a friend ofours, because we lived in a small town.
Everybody knows one another.
And he said, Grant's at the hospital,
he fell and he broke his arm and whathappened was he fell on black ice
going in on a Sunday because he feltlike he needed to get things done.
He fell and broke his arm.
(12:39):
And I want to say that started to be thebeginning of the end of his independence
because we had to cancel the entire trip.
When someone has ALS, it's not likea normal person breaking their arm.
He was using a cane with thatparticular arm to get around.
We were devastated.
Clearly devastated because we couldn'ttake this wonderful adventure together.
(13:04):
And then also devastated becausemy role as his caregiver kicked in.
Because he wasn't able to coordinatethe use of his hands and his
arms as well as he could anymore.
Now, the thing you need to know ishe was hiding this diagnosis from
the people that he worked with
(13:25):
because he had worked reallyhard to get this promotion and
he didn't want to let it go.
And so he made me promise thatI wasn't going to tell anybody
that was outside of our immediatefamily that he had this disease.
And so on a wing and a prayer, he wouldgo off on his business trip and his rep
(13:46):
would meet him in the next country and,you know, would actually take care of him.
So Grant, had an extensivenetwork of friends that were
business colleagues that, theyjust embraced him with open arms.
So he was able to hide this and functionthrough other people to a certain extent.
(14:08):
And then when he started having a hardtime walking and then using his hands,
that's when things really changed.
And that's when I realized thatI was becoming an extension of
him and what he could not do.
That's something that justhappened from a small place in the
beginning, and then eventuallyI was doing everything for him.
(14:31):
Until I was able to bring some caregiversinto support and help me, but it was,
you know, you can look back on it now.
And I would say, if I could do it allover again, I would choose to be more
of Grant's wife than his caregiver.
But we were also so young,the money aspect of that.
(14:51):
It could have been challenging as well.
Right?
I know hindsight's such awonderful thing, isn't it?
You think back of all the things youcould have, should have, would have done.
But the reality is that you makethe best decisions at that point of
time with the information you have.
So you just do the best you can.
And that's, the decision thatGrant made to carry on in his role
(15:15):
for as long as he possibly could.
How long was that timeframe fromwhen he was diagnosed to when
he eventually lost his life?
Yeah.
So he was diagnosed in July of 1995.
I want to say he lost thatability in December of 95
(15:35):
When he fell and broke his arm.
And then the next year was when, no.
It would have been December of1996 is when he broke his arm.
We got married in March of 96.
And then from December of 96 untilwe moved to Kauai and took an early
(15:56):
retirement, that was in September of 97.
So, You know, there were one year timeperiods or eight to nine month time
periods where things would progress, butwe could keep up with it at that point.
And then when we moved to Kauai,really, he was in a wheelchair.
He wasn't able to drive.
(16:17):
He wasn't able tocompletely walk on his own.
He could use his cane a little bit toget a little bit from here to there.
And then.
I, became the person really caring forhim, in terms of helping him get dressed
and different kinds of things like that.
And then eventually we hired somecaregivers to come in and to help
out as I was working in Kauai,I was able to work and get our
(16:41):
insurance covered working part time.
It was a special program they had there.
And, we were able to find our way.
Grant being a good businessman,we had some savings and resources.
His dad was really good withgiving us some money each month
to help pay for some things.
And then we moved to Kauai.
(17:02):
It was five years after Hurricane Iniki,
which the island was completelydevastated by a Category 5 hurricane.
So the island was still rebuilding atthat time, we were able to rent a three
bedroom, two bath home for A priceyou could never imagine today, right?
(17:23):
So we were able to make thingshappen to help him live his
best quality of life at the end.
And as we tried to keep his qualityof life high, my quality of life
was really going down the shitter.
Oh,
Not from a Kauai standpoint,
(17:44):
but just,
It was the caregiving piece of wantingto be everything that you could be for
somebody, and that's not humanly possible.
No.
And who supports the caregivers.
Really?
That's a big, big part of this aswell, because often a lot of caregivers
go through giving their absolute alland more, and they're not actually
(18:07):
getting anything back in return.
There's no real self care for them.
And sometimes, I hate to say it, butsometimes they end up dying before the
person that they're taking care of becausethey're not taking care of themselves.
They're not payingattention to those things.
I think about how youngI was going through that
(18:29):
and how old I looked by the end.
And I was in my early thirties, you know,
I think of people who are so mucholder, who are going on this journey
with their partners, but, I talk aboutbecoming a more conscious caregiver
through this process moving forward.
(18:51):
And I talk about that in my book,because it's so important for
you to take care of yourself.
So that you can be therefor the people who need you.
There are a lot of people out there thatuh, nursing, dementia, like partners,
spouses, people with Alzheimer's, it'sa hard, tough road, terminal illnesses.
(19:16):
My hat goes off to them every singleday because, it's unsung hero, really.
That is what you are in thatposition, an unsung hero.
But what I want to say about that too,Helen, is my book talks about the raw,
vulnerable aspect of being a caregiver.
(19:38):
I actually talk aboutthe not so nice moments,
the humanness of the experience,and even things that I said
or did that I regretted.
And I felt guilty about later, I reallyfelt it was important for people to know
this is not a hallmark movie where you'rewistfully looking off into the distance.
(19:59):
This is.
Real life living in
the trenches, right?
And this is where, you're notshowing your best self every day, no
matter how much you love somebody.
And, so that's the
reality of it, right?
Is, Oh my gosh, I can't believe Isaid that to this person who I love,
or I was yelling at them today or,
(20:20):
I even remember doing that in my roleof parenting, with my daughter, there
were times where, my stuff got ontop of me and I took it out on her.
I had to go back and apologizea number of times, just to say,
God, that just so was not you.
That was me getting
overwhelmed and not able tocope and, facing some stresses
(20:42):
that had nothing to do with you.
And I took it out on you.
So
Yeah.
I, and I want to say, yeah, I want to saythat, I had a lot of guilt about that.
And the interesting way of how someof that guilt was resolved is through
the mystical experiences that I hadconnecting with Grant after he died.
(21:05):
So tell us, yeah, tell us about that time,suddenly you've gone from, probably almost
full time caregiving and organizing stuffin this chaotic lifestyle to suddenly
not having that person with you anymore.
That in itself is ahuge shift in your life.
And then you're facing grief.
(21:27):
You can never, yeah, you can neveranticipate what your life is going to
be like without that person, no matterhow much anticipatory grief you have,
Yeah, I agree.
right?
And, that grief aspect, right?
Is.
It's so painfully hard and justknowing that you're never going
(21:51):
to hug that person or connect withthat person again in that human way.
You're grieving everythingabout that person that you love
that you don't have anymore.
And the anticipatory grief of whatwe had is I was grieving parts about
him that he lost that we no longerhad in our relationship to, but then
(22:14):
after he died, going down memorylane and grieving those things again,
as well as, what I didn't have.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that.
I was very open minded about tryingto connect with him after he died.
It wasn't something that Ireally sought out until I was
(22:39):
working at the clothing store.
And this person walked in fromMichigan and she and I just struck
up a conversation like people do.
And she says, Ooh, if you getback to Michigan, you should
see the Reverend Carrie Carter.
She's this amazing medium and dah.
And she tells me all this stuff.
And I wrote this in this little journal.
What happened was I put the journal aside.
(23:00):
Six months later, Grant passes away.
I pulled the journal out.
I go to Michigan.
I'm working on planninghis memorial service.
And I opened to the page.
Where it says that with a phonenumber with the person's name, and
I'm like, I need to call this person.
So I called and I reached out and thiswas in 1999 before you could look up
(23:23):
people on Google and on the internet.
So I called and they said, you know what?
We're booked four months out.
Sorry.
And then, Oh, wait a second.
We got a cancellation.
And it was the day before I wasleaving to fly back to Hawaii.
So
Oh my goodness.
That's divine.
(23:44):
And I went into this appointmentwith a very open and skeptical mind.
But now, mind you, before I wenton this appointment, I had a lot of
little mystical things and energyhappening around me for those couple
months that after he had passed away.
And I include a lot of those in the book.
(24:05):
But this situation, when I went inand I met with this woman, she looked
like Sylvia Brown, if you know her,she was a famous psychic medium who
was on Montel Williams, Larry King.
She looks at me and she goes,Hey, Grant just adored you.
And I looked at her and I said,and I was just crying and I'm like,
(24:26):
I need to know if he forgives mefor everything that happened that
I feel so guilty and so bad for
in our experience together, and she lookedat me like I was crazy and she said, he
says, there's nothing to forgive, youwere both having this human experience
and doing the best that you could do.
(24:48):
And he adores you and loves you.
And I just held space with that.
And then.
I was thinking, okay, this isn't anythingthat she couldn't know, or make up.
And
so she says to me, shelooks really confused.
And she says, was your husbandafraid of going to the dentist?
(25:10):
And this is just random out of the blue.
And I said, no, he lovedgoing to the dentist.
His friend put him on nitrous.
They would laugh.
His friend was a dentist.
No, he was fine.
Then she says, why would he say to me now?
I don't have to worryabout going to the dentist.
And I said, because that's what Itold him two weeks before he died.
(25:36):
And she goes, I said, Two weeks before hedied, he wanted to get a teeth cleaning.
And I called the dentist and I said,I'm concerned about Grant aspirating.
He's not breathing andswallowing properly.
It's going to be a problem.
And the dentist said, no, we'renot going to clean his teeth.
So I came home.
I told him, I said, Grant.
You're not going to the dentist.
(25:59):
I know you want to have clean teeth,but this isn't going to happen.
And he was angry and he was so angry.
And this is only as a caregiverwho had experienced this for four
and a half years with somebody.
Okay.
I looked at him and he was with hospice.
Okay.
I looked at him and I said, Grant, whereyou are going, you don't need your teeth.
(26:19):
You don't need to worryabout going to the dentist.
Oh my goodness.
I put my feet, my foot down, right?
Me, Grant.
And the dentist were the onlythree people who knew about that.
And so when she said that, whenthat, the psychic said that I
knew beyond a shadow of a doubt,she was communicating with him.
(26:41):
And I also knew that he was sowitty that he knew just what to say.
That I would know it was himand that's who Grant was.
He was witty and he couldcome up with things like that.
So I knew beyond a shadow of a doubtin that moment that he had connected
(27:02):
with me and that he did say, I,there's nothing to be forgiven.
It was a human experience.
I was able to heal through that guilt.
which was really powerfulfor my healing process.
And having that incredibly mysticaland unique experience, it's hard
(27:24):
to explain to people who don'tunderstand or believe in that, or who
haven't had an experience like that.
But when you have had an experiencelike that, your whole world and
your view of the world changes.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I always say that, you know, it'sjust that confirmation that you get
(27:46):
from the other side and the signs andthe, all the little mystical things
that happen and magical things happen.
And it just makes you feel, I think, IYou know, for me, it made me feel calm.
It made me feel like, wow,she's in this beautiful place.
And, so it's just me lefthere to get on with it all
(28:06):
Right.
But really, I think having ahealthy dose of skepticism is
so necessary in this yeah.
And there are people who will takeadvantage of people who are grieving.
And I do want to say thatthey'll come out of the woodwork
and take advantage of people that way.
I'm thoughtful about that as well.
(28:27):
I'm also thoughtful that,you might be the best person.
Person for them to communicatewith, and it's about how do we
pay attention to those signs?
How do we seek to understand thatdifferent language that they might be
using to communicate becausethey can't talk to us
in the same way that they used?
(28:49):
Yeah.
And that's exactly it.
It's learning a new language andit's unique to you often, no two
people are going to get the same sortof, you know, they may get similar
symbols, but, I think it's alwaysunique between the people that you're
Absolutely, and there are things that,you know, even inside jokes that you
may have had in your relationship or
(29:12):
those words that you wouldsay, You just have to pay
attention to those things, right?
Or, spirit animals or,
Some people say, Ooh, whenI see this animal or I see a
hummingbird or I see a hawk or, it'ssometimes in the strangest places
too.
I get songs on the radio
(29:32):
Yes.
and they're very telling songs and I payattention to what the lyrics are now.
Yeah.
When I'm driving to work, when I wasdriving to work and I used to start
work early in the morning and you couldalmost guarantee that there was a message
in the song that just happened to beplaying for the distance and I didn't
have to go far from the distance fromhome to work and there it would be.
(29:54):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
let's.
talk now, Sheila, about some of themore taboo subjects around grief
that people do not talk about.
What do people not talk about?
I just see it even inpromoting my book, right?
People don't want totalk about grief, period.
(30:17):
It's like it's a contagious disease.
Yeah.
Really they're like, Oh, it's ifthey talk about it or if they address
it, like it's going to happen.
It's already happened.
It's already happened.
I say that we're all grievers,
past, present, and future.
And, that we're really just findingour way with a very human experience
(30:44):
of loving people, because once youlove people, you will experience loss
and, the taboo subjects, I thinkthat people will Walk around with it.
I'd say a mask on right
because they really don't wantto bring things up that are
(31:05):
going to bring people down.
I say some taboo things,of course, are suicide as
well.
My, my real dad killedhimself when I was 5 and,
I just say, that suicidepiece is really Taboo.
Sometimes the way that peopledie can be a taboo, right?
(31:28):
And that people don't want to talkabout it for a lot of different
reasons, but they don't wantpeople to see them differently
Yeah.
It's it's almost like it'stheir fault, isn't it?
And
I don't understand that, but yes,
yeah,
(31:48):
it's true.
And when you're as raw and vulnerableas I was in my book, what's fascinating
about that is people will come up tome now and they'll tell me things.
They don't tell other people
and they tell me, Ooh, and I don't wantto tell anybody this because I don't
want them to think of me differently.
(32:09):
And I'm thinking, why are they goingto think differently about you?
Because a family member committed suicide.
I think we just have tostop this wearing of masks.
We're so very good at having amultitude of them and, the greatest
happiness in my life has come frombeing the most authentic, raw, messy
(32:34):
human that I am and not hiding that.
Yeah.
where we connect.
That raw vulnerability is wherewe really connect with people.
And I knew when I was writingthis book that's the only way
that I could write about grief.
for having me.
(32:54):
And, but it's really hard to stand in thatplace because then we risk being judged.
And I just, got to a point where I'mlike, if you walked into my, in my
shoes, I guess you could judge me.
But if you haven't walked in myshoes, then I might not listen to you.
And that's it, so many of us listento the opinions of others and that's
(33:18):
only based on their experiences andtheir knowledge and their whatever.
It's got nothing to do with us really.
It's just, and we take that on boardand we buy into it and then that
screws us up even more sometimes,
Through listening to it.
And it's just really exactly likeyou said, unless you've walked
in my shoes, have your opinion,but I'm not going to buy into
(33:42):
Are you feeling lost, anxious,unsure of how to navigate the
loss of your beautiful loved one.
I don't know where to head next.
Yeah, I get that.
Then you may be interested inthe new offering I've developed
A Letter of Hope and Aroha.
To help you find out whoyou are right here and now.
And how you can navigate that withoutbeing on that emotional roller
(34:05):
coaster feeling out of control.
That's a feeling I really dislikedafter Tahl and then Adrian died.
So I've developed an eight weeksupport program where each week you
get an email of what worked for me.
As well as other tried and true toolsto help with grief, it's a beautiful
calming, mean healing resource thatI think you're really going to like.
(34:30):
And that you can use in youreveryday life to find out what
works for you and what doesn't.
And the great thing is you findyourself feeling stronger and more in
control, so you can work out what youwant life to look like going forward.
So with this sounds like somethingyou would like to check out, head
over to my website, or check outthe link in the episode notes, you're
(34:53):
looking for A Letter of Hope & Aroha.
Yeah.
I think that sometimes, caregivers.
yes.
Yeah.
People who naturally connect in thatcaregiver role also tend to be people
pleasers and I would, I had the peoplepleaser syndrome, where I'm apologizing
(35:16):
for things that I have no business andno reason to apologize for and, trying
to make everybody feel comfortable,even though I'm the least comfortable,
um, so I think that, but, you know,another thing that I think is really
interesting about being a caregiver iswhat could be taboo is, and by HIPAA law
(35:39):
in the United States, we're not allowed toshare medical, Information about somebody
that's their own private business.
And so when I think about grant in hisdesire to not share his diagnosis with
people, I was holding that secret.
(36:00):
And I was carrying that secret around withme every single day, going to work, trying
to function like a normal human being.
And my life was far from normal.
It was a whole different level of crazy.
And there were not many peoplethat I could talk to about that.
Yeah, that's a big burden to carry.
(36:20):
You do it in the most lovingand caring way, for Grant, but
yes, a huge burden nonetheless.
How did you go about discovering what itwas that you needed following his death?
Because like you say, it changesyour whole entire world, your
whole entire outlook on life.
(36:41):
You, you suddenly are left withoutthis beautiful person in your life.
So what does life look likefor you from that point
going forward?
Well, I was stumbling around inthe dark looking for the light
switch in my underwear for years.
I love that.
Oh my gosh , that is the best.
I've
(37:01):
I'm not.
I'm not.
over exaggerating.
Oh,
to say that I had so many dysfunctionalways of trying to cope with my grief,
drinking, promiscuousbehavior, sleeping with men.
I was trying to fill my needsthat were so rock bottom.
(37:24):
I was so So at the rockbottom of having my needs met.
So I came out of that experience withphysical touch as a love language.
You're not going to get awaywith not doing that, I guess.
Um, it really was, oh mygosh, I was liberated.
I was suddenly free from the caregivingresponsibilities and also, I was
(37:49):
left to my own devices of whateverI was going to do or not do in a
healthy, functional way in my life.
I was a functional alcoholic, I say,because I got up, I went to work, I took
care of people, took care of my animals,whatever I did, but I was a party girl.
So I loved going out with people.
I didn't want to be alone.
I wanted to be with people anddrinking was always a part of that.
(38:14):
I've been sober 18 years now, but
that was that was.
an event and quite a thingin my life at that time.
And then despite that, I was alsoopen to a lot of alternative healing.
I was doing Reiki.
I was getting massage.
I was living on Kauai, which is a verynaturally inclined island to that kind
(38:37):
of alternative healing and so I wasable to bring those professionals and
those people in and I've always beenan excellent support system builder.
So people just magically as well cameinto my life as well as I seek them out.
(38:58):
I've always been a support systembuilder and that's one of my strengths.
So I just built this amazingsupport system around me
and I held on for dear life.
And they took care of me.
How do you encourage people who arenot like that, who are not naturally
inclined to being able to build goodsupport systems around themselves?
(39:21):
What advice would you give tosomebody listening right here
and now and says, no, I isolate.
I don't have people around me.
I encourage people to reach out tothe people they do have in their life.
And in particular, maybe even theirone most resourceful friend, their
(39:42):
one most connecting friend who knowseverybody and reach out to that person
and tell them that you need help.
Sometimes you don't even know what youneed, but if you can reach out to that
person, who's a mind reader, who'ssomebody that you can really connect with.
(40:03):
Sometimes.
If you just tell them, I really needyou, I need you to help me navigate
this, they can help you do that.
Separate from that connectingwith a really fantastic therapist.
is really crucial, I think, or areally fantastic grief support group.
You can find them throughdifferent organizations.
(40:27):
Connecting with a group of people who aregoing through something similar to you
and finding that common connectioncan help you feel not as alone.
and they may have resources thatare available to you as well.
It's hard to reach out to people, but youhave to reach out to a lifeline outside
(40:53):
of you because you're not going to knoweverything and you need to find some help.
So that's just really what I wouldencourage people to do, is to just know
You're not supposed to do this alone,
Yeah.
and that's okay, unless you want to, andif that's the type of person that you
(41:16):
are, and you're feeling okay about that, Ialso don't want to judge how somebody else
processes their grief, but there's a pointwhere it, Needs to be more functional
and healthy as you're moving forwardand that can take a long time and that
(41:37):
can look different for different people.
Because I always say that when you'regoing through really deep grief, it's
like everything gets thrown in the mix.
Everything that's ever happened inyour life that wasn't very functional
suddenly starts to rear its ugly head.
And you're not just dealing with griefper se, you're dealing with all of your
(42:02):
life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what's interestingabout that, right.
Is you're an automatic pilot and you'renot living in your best self typically.
We're not living in our best self
when we're grieving.
We're really an automatic pilotof kind of what we default to when
we're not having a good day andwe're not living in our best selves.
(42:26):
So I think that knowing that,is really challenging, right?
And like I talk about the grief pit,I talk about falling in that hole.
And what I encourage peopleto do is just find resources
that can help you build hope.
(42:46):
You know, grab that hand that'sreaching down to you in the grief pit.
You can stay down there, but grab thehand and know you're going to come out.
Know that you don't have to staythere for the rest of your life.
Know that you don't have to staythere 24/7 and 24 hours a day.
(43:06):
You can come out.
And you may go back in, but just knowthat that darkness that you feel the
light will connect with you again.
And it's so hard forpeople to realize that.
And I want to just say what was reallyinteresting is I believe that other
(43:27):
people can be an inspiration anda source of hope for other people.
Your guests on your show, everything thatyou write about, and you connect with
as a professional and individual, right?
Giving people hope that they're going tomove forward through this and be able to
(43:53):
be functional and normal, quote unquote.
Their new normal.
They're new normal, maybe as crazyas ever, but they're new normal
and, that they're going to be ableto feel happiness and joy again.
(44:14):
I realized when I went, I wastaking care of my grandmother
after my grandfather had died.
They were married 60 years and this was,so many years after Grant died and six
years, seven years after Grant died.
And I showed up.
And this was after my grandfatherdied and my grandma looked at me
and she said, I know that I can makeit through this because you did it.
(44:40):
Yeah.
You don't know who's watching you, do you?
And I looked at her and I said, Grandma,I was only with Grant for seven years.
I wasn't with him for 60 years,like you were with grandpa.
And she said, That doesn't matter.
You've loved him.
Yeah.
And it, I have to tell you, I, I wasblown away that this woman who is a
(45:06):
second mom to me had so much wisdom andshe could look at my experience and go,
I'm going to be okay because she did it.
Yeah.
And so I want to say we're sources ofinspiration and hope for one another.
I know that I can fall backin that grief pit again.
(45:27):
I know that I chose to move forwardand get married and love another
man and have step kids and havethese beautiful animals in my life.
I know I'm going to grieve again.
In a deeper way again, and Iknow I'm okay, but I also know
that life is so much stronger.
Life is so much worth living
(45:51):
in that place.
Despite all of that, right?
We can't close ourselves offbecause of what we're afraid
of in terms of losing somebody.
But it's very easy to go there, andit's very easy to close our heart
and shut our heart down becausewe don't want to experience that.
But I want to say once we do our healing.
(46:14):
We have a stronger and a biggercapacity to love even more.
And that's, what is amazing.
Yeah, it's a gift on theother side, isn't it?
Then that's the beauty that I see.
That's the beauty I got revealedto me on the other side of grief.
And that's why this podcastis called exactly that.
(46:35):
One thing that you touched on,and we spoke about feeling guilty
earlier, but people even feel guiltyabout laughing again and Being happy
again after they've lost that, superspecial person from their life.
And it's almost Oh, Ishouldn't feel happy.
Why not?
Of course, if you're in thatmoment feeling happy, that is okay.
(46:57):
We sometimes feel guilty, don't we?
About allowing ourselvesto feel happy again.
It's like we're, Where, what's aphrase, what are we doing to them?
It's just we're not honoringthem or, the vows we made to them
and that's not, just not true.
Yeah.
we're forgetting about them.
We're
not being present in our memory of them.
(47:21):
But really, they wouldn'twant you to be sad.
I really don't think, maybemiss them a little bit.
Okay.
Just a little.
Just miss them a little bit.
But, no.
No.
They wouldn't want, I don't thinkthat they would want us to be
sad for the rest of our lives.
(47:43):
I think that we're here to havethis amazing experience of life
and we're all going to die.
So it's a matter of how do we makethe most of the life that we have.
And despite the fact that our dreams wereshattered, our dreams were shattered.
(48:06):
were taken from us.
Yes.
The experiences that we were goingto have with that person are gone.
They're no longer a part of us here.
The memories are still there, butit doesn't mean that you can't
build new dreams and that you can'thave an amazing life and another
(48:29):
amazing love and an amazing partner.
And that doesn't take awayfrom the relationship that
you had with your loved one.
If you have another child, if you decideto get married again, the relationship
that you have with that person is forever
and it's forever in your heartand you will always have that.
(48:51):
And so for me in my book, what wasso important was for me to write
the journey about moving forward,finding a new partner, embracing
him and bringing him into my life.
Reconciling him living with theghost of my husband, which he did
brilliantly, I could not have connectedwith a better partner in how he
(49:17):
held space for my husband, Grant.
And I want to say that even themystical stuff afterwards that I put
in my book, Sean, my current husband,he didn't know all of those stories.
I didn't tell him.
There's some mysticalstuff in here, honey.
And he's okay, as long as you'renot levitating down the hallway,
(49:39):
I guess I'll be all right with it.
What do we,
yeah.
Just to,
say, yeah,
that, that's in there too.
And he doesn't downplayit or poopoo it either.
He's it's your experience.
absolutely.
And that's really important.
What do we learn about ourselvesfrom our grief, Sheila?
(50:03):
I think number one, when weget to the other side of it, we
learn how strong we really are.
We learn how resilient We are.
We learn how resourceful we can be.
It's like I always say,I see the big picture.
(50:24):
I will never not see thebig picture of what's really
important in this life ever again.
And that big pictureis love, loving people.
And, the journey that we have in thisworld and being there for each other.
It's very easy to get tripped up inall of the mundane different things of
(50:46):
the day, but ultimately, if we reallyremember, we're all in this together
and we can help each other through it.
And that's a choice.
That's the big picture.
And so moving forward, livinglife more vibrantly and
brilliantly and more in love with.
Life and people.
I think ultimately that is the gift onthe other side of working through your
(51:10):
grief is that you will get to that.
And there it is possibleto experience grief.
and joy at the same time.
Yeah.
So yeah,
Yeah.
And like you say, just allow yourselfto hold space for that, for both.
(51:33):
Yeah.
It's
hope's the bridge.
Hope is
the bridge to that.
It raises your vibration as well, andit helps you get out of the grief pit.
So why did you want to share yourstory now so many years after?
It was always there.
My shitty first book that I wrote,that's what I call it, was the one I
(51:57):
emotionally threw up in and had it edited.
And that was my book.
And I wrote that in 2005.
This book was always on the backburner because I read an amazing
book when I was a caregiver.
I read the book, The Caregiver'sCompanion, and when I read
(52:22):
it, I didn't feel alone.
Yes.
person expressed rawness andvulnerability, and I felt that I wanted to
write this book for grievers so that theycould connect with the rawness and the
vulnerability in that grief process andto talk about the things that people were
(52:42):
afraid or they don't want to talk aboutso that you know you're not crazy, you
know that you're not alone, you know thatunder pressure, Other people can validate
you and support you and understand you.
And so if I have touched one person'slife that they can know that I have
done what I needed to do with this book.
(53:05):
And so that was my desire andmy passion for putting this out.
There was to be a supportive.
resource as well as, a supportive personfor other people to share that journey.
I'm surprised that Iactually got this book done.
And when people say, Oh,I want to write a book.
(53:26):
I'm always like, you reallyneed to know what you're
getting into when you say that.
It's not for the faint of heart.
And it actually, when you'reself publishing takes quite
a bit of money as well.
So like you have to havea passion for doing that.
yeah,
And actually to birth it andget it out of you in a way that
(53:49):
people can at least resonate with.
And I had a lot of help.
It wasn't just me doing this.
I have amazing, book coaches and editors,and I brought a lot of really gifted and
talented people in to help with that,but really being able to share the story,
in an authentic way was important to me.
(54:10):
I think that's the key to it too.
Authentic.
So it's real.
It's telling people like it is andallowing people to be okay with whatever
they may be experiencing in that moment.
So I think that is so vitally important.
Yeah.
That's the treasure in your book.
I think now another treasure that goesalongside of it is that you've also
(54:33):
got like a companion journal, haven't
Yes, I have a companion journal thatyou can download from the website,
Sheilaclemonson.Com and people canwork through that it'll eventually
be available on Amazon as well.
But, I wanted to makesure that it was useful.
And so you kind of have to test thingswhen you're putting it out there too.
(54:54):
I think at the beginning, right?
So yeah, there is that, I do a lot ofcoaching with people moving through
transitions from my HR background.
The big fit is the career coaching, butI find that my niche is starting to be
people coming in, experiencing significantloss that can be job loss, death, divorce.
(55:17):
It can be a lot of different things.
And.
I'm helping them find their way movingforward career wise professionally,
because often we still have to pay ourbills and we have to put food on the table
and we have to take care of our family.
And so I'm helping people move forwardwhen they're not living in their
(55:39):
best self, but they have to show upas their best self to move forward.
And
sometimes you need to get away fromwhat you're in, but you don't know
where to go, what that's going tolook like if you're brave enough to
do it, because it does take courage.
It does take bravery to moveout of your comfort zone even
(56:00):
if you don't enjoy what it is,
Yeah.
And I tell my clients, you don'thave to have this figured out.
We'll work on that together.
I have so many people sometimesthey're like, I got to figure
this out before I work with you.
And I'm like, do you understandthat I help you do that?
That's what the transition part is.
(56:22):
You don't have to do it alone.
There's a lot of tools and resourcesthat I'm sharing to help you with that.
And yeah, it's, it's powerful.
I'm passionate about the work I do.
And what's funny is when I wassitting with the book, right.
And I'm like, I have a verysuccessful career coaching business.
It couldn't have been a betterbusiness through the pandemic.
Okay.
(56:42):
Everybody wanted to quit theirjobs and go do something else.
And they were looking for help with that.
And so I was able to build mybusiness through that challenging
time I've had it for six years.
And I thought, Why am I writing the griefbook and not the career coaching book?
And every single timeSpirit, God, Goddess,
Universe, Source, whoever, whateveryou call it, would send me a client
(57:09):
Yes.
didn't need a therapist, but theyneeded help moving through this
to get to where they needed to be.
Professionally meaningful purpose.
Whether that's work or vacationor volunteering or whatever it is.
We're all looking for somekind of meaningful purpose and
(57:29):
what we're doing every day.
And a lot of the time after we've gonethrough a grief experience, we can't do
our normal life the same way ever again.
It's I'm not going to showup for that job that I hate.
I'm not going to be doing this.
You're rewriting your complete contactlist because you're not friends with
or family with those people anymore.
It's
(57:50):
Yeah, so it's a perfect time to bringin somebody to support you and to
help you sort through all of that.
So wise.
Yeah.
And it's reaching out and allowing peopleto do that because yeah, we don't always
have the answers like I, it's funny.
And I've shared this with mylisteners in that, I am typically
(58:11):
very good at whatever I choose to do.
Like I'm just that sort of person.
I go in boots and all, andI'm going to conquer it.
But that's not always necessarilya good thing because, in the latest
instance, that was taking me furtherand further away from this podcast.
And in fact, I was,having less time to do it.
And then like universe just slappedme on the cheek and went, You
(58:36):
need to get your butt back to thisbecause this is where your heart is.
This is where your passion isso you can be good at something.
But what you need to recognizeis what is your passion?
What lights you up?
And for me, it's speakingto people like you,
honestly.
Oh, and that vibrant,sassy spirit you've got.
(58:59):
I read that you also had a different danceparty at the launch of your book, which
I think is such a cool idea, especiallywhen you're talking about a grief book.
Oh my
like grief and
Yes.
Yes.
I had a lit up dance floor.
I did a DJ that played eighties.
I had a Taylor Swift outfit change
(59:23):
I just
I Dr.
I dressed up in my valleygirl eighties outfit.
I was ready to go and I had disco platformshoes that I found at a vintage fair the
name on them was over the rainbow the
oh,
of my book
(59:43):
perfect.
so there you go, like things just allcame together and it was a Celebration
and that's what I wanted it to be.
I wanted it to be a celebration of Allof the people who helped support me move
forward and helping me birth this bookand that we forget to celebrate, to have
(01:00:07):
celebration sometimes for the things thatwe're working on, that we're accomplishing
and we're moving forward with.
And so it was a celebrationthat I wanted to bring forward.
Yeah,
I can understand why Grant justthought you were the bee's knees.
and you know what we were together.
(01:00:28):
And yeah, yeah, I can justfeel him all around me.
He's
I can feel him as well,
yeah, he was very charismaticand he loved dancing.
He sent me those disco platform shoes,just so you know, he was a big Bowie fan
and he was really into shoes himself.
And so I'm like, yeah.
Yeah, he brought those to me.
(01:00:49):
And I have to share
yes, great, that is beautiful.
I
that was a very funny picture of him.
He wanted to have a Fez catbun and he wanted to be goofy.
And so we put it on a button tocelebrate him at his memorial
service.
(01:01:09):
And so
that's that's kind ofhis funny, his funny face
Oh,
me connecting with him.
Oh,
I wanted to share that becausesometimes you really have to find
those ways to connect and bring thathumor back in for you and laugh at
(01:01:30):
those memories and those good times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because there are many goodtimes in there, and that's what
we need to allow ourselves to
go back to and feel that beautifulenergy of those really fun, crazy
times that you had together.
and what I'll say is Grant is nowmy best friend on the other side,
(01:01:54):
Oh, I love that.
Knows that Sean's my husband.
In fact, he's Oh mygosh, good luck to you.
Good luck.
You need all the
help you can get.
But it's, and that'show I've reconciled it.
It's he's my best friendon the other side.
He's not my husband anymore.
And you know
what?
(01:02:14):
That's okay.
absolutely.
So I just want to say that, thingscan change over time and we can bring
that person forward into our lives,rebuilding our lives and living
very happy, full, wonderful lives.
And they still have a place init because why would they not?
(01:02:37):
When they're larger than life whenthey were alive, they're going
to be that way on the other side.
Hallelujah.
Yep, I know I've had some people thatI've spoken to, some clairvoyants mediums
and they go, she's really bossy isn't
She's really what?
Bossy.
Yes.
(01:02:57):
And I go, she was so like thatin life, demanding that we do
stuff and telling us what to do.
And she was just so confidentand she could just pull it off.
And, that's never left.
And I love that.
I love that because that'swhat made her so special.
She was the complete opposite to me.
It was like a.
(01:03:19):
a beautiful, frustrating journey together.
Hey, look, there's some questionsthat I always ask each of my
guests as we wind things up.
And I'd like to know whatis the best thing that has
happened to you so far today?
Oh my gosh.
(01:03:41):
My conversation with you.
Oh,
go on.
you've brought things to life that areprecious to me in this conversation and
this connection is really important.
The connection between ushas been really beautiful.
I'm a connector and with your audience,it just, this is really fabulous.
(01:04:08):
Because I'm a great believer whenpeople feel safe then they just open
their hearts and they open their voicesand that's when you get the gold.
absolutely.
that's what I felt likeconnecting with you Sheila.
We like just hit it off rightfrom the get go and you know it's
been a brilliant conversation.
I'm grateful for that.
What is something thatyou are most grateful for?
(01:04:33):
I am most grateful forthe people in my life.
They're my rock.
They're my support system.
I can say they're my ohana,which is the Hawaii term for
the family you choose, right?
I have an amazing support systemand I would not have made it
through everything without it.
(01:04:53):
And I just am gratefulfor that every single day.
That's beautiful and I think it'sbecause you are such a shining light
that people just gravitate toward you.
So
Thank
you have moments in your day that arenot going so well and we have a term
here when they turn to custard, howdo you pivot out of those moments?
(01:05:15):
Oh, it might be a few fourletter words that I might say.
And then I give myself a new attitudeadjustment and a new affirmation.
That's going to be better.
I quickly look for that better thought.
(01:05:35):
That better experience, and I tryto sometimes look from a curious
place rather than thinking.
I know everything.
So sometimes it's like, well, youknow, maybe that's what you think,
but maybe you, maybe that's not thestory that you need to tell yourself.
oh
That's really key for me andgetting out of those mindsets
and to shift out of that.
(01:05:57):
I really like that.
That's really good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So how can people get hold ofyour book over the rainbow?
Hi.
the depths of grief to hope
it is available on Amazon.
That's the best way to purchase it.
You can also download the companionjournal at Sheila Clemenson.
(01:06:21):
com and that's on the homepagea little further down.
You can tap into that and, you canalso click in from that website into
Amazon to purchase the book as well.
So I'm going to have those links in theepisode notes anyway, but it's always
good for you to be able to share them as
And I think you people justhave to recognize the country
(01:06:43):
that they're in sometimes.
And that, the link won't workif it's a U S versus New Zealand
Oh yeah.
another country.
We live in such a small world nowthat it's crazy that you could
be on the other side of the worldfrom me and yet feel so connected.
Oh,
It's Amazing.
And I love it.
(01:07:04):
Yeah, it opens up a world that you couldnever have imagined, like I think for
the beautiful souls that I connect withon a weekly basis and I just go, Oh, how
lucky am I, there's a richness to that.
Beautiful.
So Sheila, I just have to say to you,what a wonderful hour I got to spend
(01:07:26):
with you having this chat about yourexperiences, caregiving, all the, your
beautiful HR tips about, making sureyou're well supported and getting that
community behind you and, writing thatbeautiful book and from the grassroots
so that it's really going to be
(01:07:46):
of help to people going through asimilar experience that you went through.
So well done.
Congratulations to you.
And I am so grateful that I had theopportunity to speak to you today.
Thank you so much, Helen.
Thank you for theopportunity to connect today.
I loved our time togetherand, yeah, thank you so much.
we're not living in our best self
(00:01):
when we're grieving.
We're really an automatic pilotof kind of what we default to when
we're not having a good day andwe're not living in our best selves.
So I think that knowing that,is really challenging, right?
And like I talk about the grief pit,I talk about falling in that hole.
(00:23):
And what I encourage peopleto do is just find resources
that can help you build hope.
You know, grab that hand that'sreaching down to you in the grief pit.
You can stay down there, but grab thehand and know you're going to come out.
Know that you don't have to staythere for the rest of your life.
(00:46):
Know that you don't have to staythere 24/7 and 24 hours a day.
You can come out.
And you may go back in, but just knowthat that darkness that you feel the
light will connect with you again.
(01:06):
And it's so hard forpeople to realize that.
I'm in awe of those special peoplewho have had to step up to being
caregivers through no choice of theirown to their loved ones who have a
(01:26):
progressive terminal illness or infact any condition that requires care.
It's a position that is often done withlove for that person they are caring
for, though it also has the capacity toturn life upside down and inside out.
My guest today on the Beautiful Sideof Grief, Sheila Clemenson, is one
such lady who has been on this journey.
(01:49):
Her first husband developed the musclewasting disease, amyotrophic lateral
sclerosis, which known as ALS or maybeyou even know it as Lou Gehrig's disease.
In a journey, Sheila hasused writing as therapy.
She founded and ran a grief retreat,helped her mum with a visiting angels
caregiving franchise before movinginto HR and which led her to finding
(02:13):
her passion as a transitions coach inher own business, Transitions coaching
services, where she is dedicated tohelping people move forward through the
challenging stages of career change.
Just recently, though, she's alsobecome an author after 24 years with
her own story, Over the Rainbow, Fromthe Depths of Grief to the End of Life.
(02:36):
She describes this book as more than justa tool for self discovery and healing.
It's an extended hand reachingout to you from someone who has
traversed the pit of grief and emergedstronger on the other side to hope.
It's about the resilience ofthe human spirit and hope.
(02:56):
The potential for redemption, evenin the darkest moments of life.
So we will chat about this and more.
Oh, and we're also going to have alook at the mystical things that can
happen when you lose a loved one.
So thanks for listening in today andlet's get into this conversation.
A very warm welcome to you, Sheila.
Oh my gosh.
(03:17):
I am so thrilled to be heresharing this time with you.
Thank you.
Very happy to have you here.
Hey, Sheila, just before we getinto this, this conversation,
I would love to know who your furbabies are and what their names are.
Yes.
So I have two beautiful fur babies, Rio.
She's 10.
(03:37):
She's a total mutt.
And we say she's a purebredmutt, a New Mexico variety,
as we'd say out here, rescue.
And then I've got another onewho is too named Zoe, who is a
half Husky, half German shepherd.
And she was a rescue also.
Aren't they treasures in your life
(03:58):
They're absolute treasures.
I call them dog angels.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah,
they are our earth angels inso many ways, aren't they?
Because they just come and give youunconditional love if you're open
to it and healing and they justhave this extra sense, I believe.
They do.
They do.
(04:18):
And my older girl, she's 10.
She just had a canceroustumor removed from her leg
and she's going to start chemo
in the beginning of January.
And so I'm being a littlebit of a caregiver right now.
Yeah,
role again.
Hey, speaking of that, just beforewe get into what your caregiving role
(04:40):
was like with your first husband,can we get an understanding of what
your life was like prior to ALS?
Oh,
basically, my background is in HR,industrial organizational psychology, and,
my first job out of college was workingfor Mazda research and development.
(05:03):
So I worked for an automotive industryin Detroit, really awesome position,
and, you one that I had a lot offun in and, that was my foothold
from a professional perspective.
I did a lot of HR work, and Iwas just having a really fun
time working for a big company.
Grant came into my life, honestly,whisked me off of my feet in
(05:27):
some whirlwind romance, that issomething out of a fairy tale.
And I was just, picked up by thischarming international salesman who,
then shortly after we met, moved toFrance and I was doing a long distance
relationship with him from Michiganto Paris, Saw him every three months.
(05:50):
And then after about a year and a half,I said, I don't want to do this anymore.
Like we're either going tobe together or we're not.
And I left my job.
I moved to the banlieue of Paris,which was Pontoise and I lived
there for four months, helpinghim finish out his assignment,
which when I look back on it now.
(06:10):
Was like that gift that we got of timetogether that was priceless when he
was fully healthy, we were able toexplore the world and we traveled to
a lot of different European countries.
And as well, I was traveling with himinternationally because that's the
foothold that he had in his career.
(06:32):
We had a very lively,Amazing life together.
He basically brought the worldto me and we were on adventures
traveling and having a lot of fun.
We were, I was in my mid twenties.
He was in his early thirtiesand, we had the world.
by the tail,
(06:53):
right?
magical.
So living in a very dreamy place
too.
Then I moved up to Northern Michigan, thisbeautiful town called Petoskey, which is
as quaint as it sounds off Lake Michigan.
It's absolutely beautiful.
Five months of the year, the otherseven, it's frigid, cold, and you
(07:15):
really don't want to be there.
So I was imported and I was,we were just building our life.
We, we got engaged, we bought ahouse, we were planning a wedding.
And then that's when the rugwas pulled out from under us.
Oh my gosh, that earlyinto your relationship,
(07:38):
Yes, I was 26.
He was 32.
We were planning a wedding and he hadbeen seeing an orthopedic specialist
than a neurologist because he washaving problems coordinating his feet.
He thought, maybe I'vejust skied too much.
Maybe I've messed my knees up.
And he came home one day.
(07:58):
As I was unpacking boxes in ournew home and he came to the kitchen
table and he put two pamphlets down.
He said, the neurologistsays I either have MS or ALS.
This is what they're all about.
And we really don't know right now untilI see the disease progress further.
(08:18):
I
Oh gosh, that must'vebeen just devastating.
How do you cope with that news?
Yeah.
that I probably shouldn't have said.
I was quite angry and I was quite angryat the doctor and quite honestly, how
the doctor communicated that news.
(08:40):
And I really hadn't shared this.
I haven't shared much ofthis with a lot of people.
She told him by himself, he drovehome by himself and, All I could
think was why would they not havehad a meeting with he and his
family or who he wanted to involve?
It was a callous way that she told himas well, which was like she was sharing
(09:02):
this mystery that she had solved and thehumanness of the whole experience was not.
Evident.
So I was really angry.
I was angry about the whole waythat it was handled and then
it was some denial and shock,
right?
(09:22):
Denial from a functional place of, maybethey're, they didn't get this right.
Or maybe, because at the time he washaving some symptoms, but it wasn't.
That he couldn't do so much ofeverything that he would normally do.
So it was just a thoughtof progression at first.
The shock piece was really,is this really happening?
(09:43):
Is this really what this is about?
And so Grant approached me andsaid, I really want to marry you,
but I don't want you to marry me.
Knowing where I'm going with this,and I don't want to do this to you.
And I basically told him, Isaid, I followed you all over
the world at this point in time.
I'm not going anywhere.
(10:04):
I'm going on this journey with you.
I'm committed to you and we're going to dothis together, whatever this looks like.
What was that journey like?
At one point in the journey, Grantsaid to me, honey, I think that you
bit off more than you could chew.
And I looked at him and Isaid, yes, I think that you're
(10:25):
right, but I'm still here.
But that is the reality of whatyou're dealing with, isn't it?
It's like I said, you didn't choose tobe a caregiver in that sense of the word.
And when you're suddenly thrustinto something you didn't choose,
it can be a rude awakening, can't
And the thing is I grew into beinga caregiver because the way this
(10:47):
disease progresses, It eventuallytakes that person's independence away.
It doesn't
happen all at once, right?
And so I would compromisefor things he couldn't do.
He couldn't open that jar or hecouldn't, do something in particular.
And so I was compensating for it.
(11:09):
And then over time, what really awfulhappened, you're going to just, I
don't know, you'll, I don't knowwhat you'll think when I tell you
this, but so Grant had moved intoan international sales manager role.
He was very.
He was an excellent businessman, okay?
He had a knack for coordinating histrips, even at just the right time.
(11:35):
He had planned a five week trip forus to do three weeks business between
New Zealand, North and South Island.
And Australia, we were going to do 2 weeksof vacation, 3 weeks of business all over
both
Places.
So we had planned our trip.
(11:56):
We were really excited.
I hadn't been to either place and Iknew what was waiting for me because he
told me all about New Zealand, right?
It's
liked it.
And, I was shopping for sometoiletries before you could do that
online, and I was paged at the localstore to come to the front desk.
(12:19):
And I came up and I saw a friend ofours, because we lived in a small town.
Everybody knows one another.
And he said, Grant's at the hospital,
he fell and he broke his arm and whathappened was he fell on black ice
going in on a Sunday because he feltlike he needed to get things done.
He fell and broke his arm.
(12:39):
And I want to say that started to be thebeginning of the end of his independence
because we had to cancel the entire trip.
When someone has ALS, it's not likea normal person breaking their arm.
He was using a cane with thatparticular arm to get around.
We were devastated.
Clearly devastated because we couldn'ttake this wonderful adventure together.
(13:04):
And then also devastated becausemy role as his caregiver kicked in.
Because he wasn't able to coordinatethe use of his hands and his
arms as well as he could anymore.
Now, the thing you need to know ishe was hiding this diagnosis from
the people that he worked with
(13:25):
because he had worked reallyhard to get this promotion and
he didn't want to let it go.
And so he made me promise thatI wasn't going to tell anybody
that was outside of our immediatefamily that he had this disease.
And so on a wing and a prayer, he wouldgo off on his business trip and his rep
(13:46):
would meet him in the next country and,you know, would actually take care of him.
So Grant, had an extensivenetwork of friends that were
business colleagues that, theyjust embraced him with open arms.
So he was able to hide this and functionthrough other people to a certain extent.
(14:08):
And then when he started having a hardtime walking and then using his hands,
that's when things really changed.
And that's when I realized thatI was becoming an extension of
him and what he could not do.
That's something that justhappened from a small place in the
beginning, and then eventuallyI was doing everything for him.
(14:31):
Until I was able to bring some caregiversinto support and help me, but it was,
you know, you can look back on it now.
And I would say, if I could do it allover again, I would choose to be more
of Grant's wife than his caregiver.
But we were also so young,the money aspect of that.
(14:51):
It could have been challenging as well.
Right?
I know hindsight's such awonderful thing, isn't it?
You think back of all the things youcould have, should have, would have done.
But the reality is that you makethe best decisions at that point of
time with the information you have.
So you just do the best you can.
And that's, the decision thatGrant made to carry on in his role
(15:15):
for as long as he possibly could.
How long was that timeframe fromwhen he was diagnosed to when
he eventually lost his life?
Yeah.
So he was diagnosed in July of 1995.
I want to say he lost thatability in December of 95
(15:35):
When he fell and broke his arm.
And then the next year was when, no.
It would have been December of1996 is when he broke his arm.
We got married in March of 96.
And then from December of 96 untilwe moved to Kauai and took an early
(15:56):
retirement, that was in September of 97.
So, You know, there were one year timeperiods or eight to nine month time
periods where things would progress, butwe could keep up with it at that point.
And then when we moved to Kauai,really, he was in a wheelchair.
He wasn't able to drive.
(16:17):
He wasn't able tocompletely walk on his own.
He could use his cane a little bit toget a little bit from here to there.
And then.
I, became the person really caring forhim, in terms of helping him get dressed
and different kinds of things like that.
And then eventually we hired somecaregivers to come in and to help
out as I was working in Kauai,I was able to work and get our
(16:41):
insurance covered working part time.
It was a special program they had there.
And, we were able to find our way.
Grant being a good businessman,we had some savings and resources.
His dad was really good withgiving us some money each month
to help pay for some things.
And then we moved to Kauai.
(17:02):
It was five years after Hurricane Iniki,
which the island was completelydevastated by a Category 5 hurricane.
So the island was still rebuilding atthat time, we were able to rent a three
bedroom, two bath home for A priceyou could never imagine today, right?
(17:23):
So we were able to make thingshappen to help him live his
best quality of life at the end.
And as we tried to keep his qualityof life high, my quality of life
was really going down the shitter.
Oh,
Not from a Kauai standpoint,
(17:44):
but just,
It was the caregiving piece of wantingto be everything that you could be for
somebody, and that's not humanly possible.
No.
And who supports the caregivers.
Really?
That's a big, big part of this aswell, because often a lot of caregivers
go through giving their absolute alland more, and they're not actually
(18:07):
getting anything back in return.
There's no real self care for them.
And sometimes, I hate to say it, butsometimes they end up dying before the
person that they're taking care of becausethey're not taking care of themselves.
They're not payingattention to those things.
I think about how youngI was going through that
(18:29):
and how old I looked by the end.
And I was in my early thirties, you know,
I think of people who are so mucholder, who are going on this journey
with their partners, but, I talk aboutbecoming a more conscious caregiver
through this process moving forward.
(18:51):
And I talk about that in my book,because it's so important for
you to take care of yourself.
So that you can be therefor the people who need you.
There are a lot of people out there thatuh, nursing, dementia, like partners,
spouses, people with Alzheimer's, it'sa hard, tough road, terminal illnesses.
(19:16):
My hat goes off to them every singleday because, it's unsung hero, really.
That is what you are in thatposition, an unsung hero.
But what I want to say about that too,Helen, is my book talks about the raw,
vulnerable aspect of being a caregiver.
(19:38):
I actually talk aboutthe not so nice moments,
the humanness of the experience,and even things that I said
or did that I regretted.
And I felt guilty about later, I reallyfelt it was important for people to know
this is not a hallmark movie where you'rewistfully looking off into the distance.
(19:59):
This is.
Real life living in
the trenches, right?
And this is where, you're notshowing your best self every day, no
matter how much you love somebody.
And, so that's the
reality of it, right?
Is, Oh my gosh, I can't believe Isaid that to this person who I love,
or I was yelling at them today or,
(20:20):
I even remember doing that in my roleof parenting, with my daughter, there
were times where, my stuff got ontop of me and I took it out on her.
I had to go back and apologizea number of times, just to say,
God, that just so was not you.
That was me getting
overwhelmed and not able tocope and, facing some stresses
(20:42):
that had nothing to do with you.
And I took it out on you.
So
Yeah.
I, and I want to say, yeah, I want to saythat, I had a lot of guilt about that.
And the interesting way of how someof that guilt was resolved is through
the mystical experiences that I hadconnecting with Grant after he died.
(21:05):
So tell us, yeah, tell us about that time,suddenly you've gone from, probably almost
full time caregiving and organizing stuffin this chaotic lifestyle to suddenly
not having that person with you anymore.
That in itself is ahuge shift in your life.
And then you're facing grief.
(21:27):
You can never, yeah, you can neveranticipate what your life is going to
be like without that person, no matterhow much anticipatory grief you have,
Yeah, I agree.
right?
And, that grief aspect, right?
Is.
It's so painfully hard and justknowing that you're never going
(21:51):
to hug that person or connect withthat person again in that human way.
You're grieving everythingabout that person that you love
that you don't have anymore.
And the anticipatory grief of whatwe had is I was grieving parts about
him that he lost that we no longerhad in our relationship to, but then
(22:14):
after he died, going down memorylane and grieving those things again,
as well as, what I didn't have.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that.
I was very open minded about tryingto connect with him after he died.
It wasn't something that Ireally sought out until I was
(22:39):
working at the clothing store.
And this person walked in fromMichigan and she and I just struck
up a conversation like people do.
And she says, Ooh, if you getback to Michigan, you should
see the Reverend Carrie Carter.
She's this amazing medium and dah.
And she tells me all this stuff.
And I wrote this in this little journal.
What happened was I put the journal aside.
(23:00):
Six months later, Grant passes away.
I pulled the journal out.
I go to Michigan.
I'm working on planninghis memorial service.
And I opened to the page.
Where it says that with a phonenumber with the person's name, and
I'm like, I need to call this person.
So I called and I reached out and thiswas in 1999 before you could look up
(23:23):
people on Google and on the internet.
So I called and they said, you know what?
We're booked four months out.
Sorry.
And then, Oh, wait a second.
We got a cancellation.
And it was the day before I wasleaving to fly back to Hawaii.
So
Oh my goodness.
That's divine.
(23:44):
And I went into this appointmentwith a very open and skeptical mind.
But now, mind you, before I wenton this appointment, I had a lot of
little mystical things and energyhappening around me for those couple
months that after he had passed away.
And I include a lot of those in the book.
(24:05):
But this situation, when I went inand I met with this woman, she looked
like Sylvia Brown, if you know her,she was a famous psychic medium who
was on Montel Williams, Larry King.
She looks at me and she goes,Hey, Grant just adored you.
And I looked at her and I said,and I was just crying and I'm like,
(24:26):
I need to know if he forgives mefor everything that happened that
I feel so guilty and so bad for
in our experience together, and she lookedat me like I was crazy and she said, he
says, there's nothing to forgive, youwere both having this human experience
and doing the best that you could do.
(24:48):
And he adores you and loves you.
And I just held space with that.
And then.
I was thinking, okay, this isn't anythingthat she couldn't know, or make up.
And
so she says to me, shelooks really confused.
And she says, was your husbandafraid of going to the dentist?
(25:10):
And this is just random out of the blue.
And I said, no, he lovedgoing to the dentist.
His friend put him on nitrous.
They would laugh.
His friend was a dentist.
No, he was fine.
Then she says, why would he say to me now?
I don't have to worryabout going to the dentist.
And I said, because that's what Itold him two weeks before he died.
(25:36):
And she goes, I said, Two weeks before hedied, he wanted to get a teeth cleaning.
And I called the dentist and I said,I'm concerned about Grant aspirating.
He's not breathing andswallowing properly.
It's going to be a problem.
And the dentist said, no, we'renot going to clean his teeth.
So I came home.
I told him, I said, Grant.
You're not going to the dentist.
(25:59):
I know you want to have clean teeth,but this isn't going to happen.
And he was angry and he was so angry.
And this is only as a caregiverwho had experienced this for four
and a half years with somebody.
Okay.
I looked at him and he was with hospice.
Okay.
I looked at him and I said, Grant, whereyou are going, you don't need your teeth.
(26:19):
You don't need to worryabout going to the dentist.
Oh my goodness.
I put my feet, my foot down, right?
Me, Grant.
And the dentist were the onlythree people who knew about that.
And so when she said that, whenthat, the psychic said that I
knew beyond a shadow of a doubt,she was communicating with him.
(26:41):
And I also knew that he was sowitty that he knew just what to say.
That I would know it was himand that's who Grant was.
He was witty and he couldcome up with things like that.
So I knew beyond a shadow of a doubtin that moment that he had connected
(27:02):
with me and that he did say, I,there's nothing to be forgiven.
It was a human experience.
I was able to heal through that guilt.
which was really powerfulfor my healing process.
And having that incredibly mysticaland unique experience, it's hard
(27:24):
to explain to people who don'tunderstand or believe in that, or who
haven't had an experience like that.
But when you have had an experiencelike that, your whole world and
your view of the world changes.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I always say that, you know, it'sjust that confirmation that you get
(27:46):
from the other side and the signs andthe, all the little mystical things
that happen and magical things happen.
And it just makes you feel, I think, IYou know, for me, it made me feel calm.
It made me feel like, wow,she's in this beautiful place.
And, so it's just me lefthere to get on with it all
(28:06):
Right.
But really, I think having ahealthy dose of skepticism is
so necessary in this yeah.
And there are people who will takeadvantage of people who are grieving.
And I do want to say thatthey'll come out of the woodwork
and take advantage of people that way.
I'm thoughtful about that as well.
(28:27):
I'm also thoughtful that,you might be the best person.
Person for them to communicatewith, and it's about how do we
pay attention to those signs?
How do we seek to understand thatdifferent language that they might be
using to communicate becausethey can't talk to us
in the same way that they used?
(28:49):
Yeah.
And that's exactly it.
It's learning a new language andit's unique to you often, no two
people are going to get the same sortof, you know, they may get similar
symbols, but, I think it's alwaysunique between the people that you're
Absolutely, and there are things that,you know, even inside jokes that you
may have had in your relationship or
(29:12):
those words that you wouldsay, You just have to pay
attention to those things, right?
Or, spirit animals or,
Some people say, Ooh, whenI see this animal or I see a
hummingbird or I see a hawk or, it'ssometimes in the strangest places
too.
I get songs on the radio
(29:32):
Yes.
and they're very telling songs and I payattention to what the lyrics are now.
Yeah.
When I'm driving to work, when I wasdriving to work and I used to start
work early in the morning and you couldalmost guarantee that there was a message
in the song that just happened to beplaying for the distance and I didn't
have to go far from the distance fromhome to work and there it would be.
(29:54):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
let's.
talk now, Sheila, about some of themore taboo subjects around grief
that people do not talk about.
What do people not talk about?
I just see it even inpromoting my book, right?
People don't want totalk about grief, period.
(30:17):
It's like it's a contagious disease.
Yeah.
Really they're like, Oh, it's ifthey talk about it or if they address
it, like it's going to happen.
It's already happened.
It's already happened.
I say that we're all grievers,
past, present, and future.
And, that we're really just findingour way with a very human experience
(30:44):
of loving people, because once youlove people, you will experience loss
and, the taboo subjects, I thinkthat people will Walk around with it.
I'd say a mask on right
because they really don't wantto bring things up that are
(31:05):
going to bring people down.
I say some taboo things,of course, are suicide as
well.
My, my real dad killedhimself when I was 5 and,
I just say, that suicidepiece is really Taboo.
Sometimes the way that peopledie can be a taboo, right?
(31:28):
And that people don't want to talkabout it for a lot of different
reasons, but they don't wantpeople to see them differently
Yeah.
It's it's almost like it'stheir fault, isn't it?
And
I don't understand that, but yes,
yeah,
(31:48):
it's true.
And when you're as raw and vulnerableas I was in my book, what's fascinating
about that is people will come up tome now and they'll tell me things.
They don't tell other people
and they tell me, Ooh, and I don't wantto tell anybody this because I don't
want them to think of me differently.
(32:09):
And I'm thinking, why are they goingto think differently about you?
Because a family member committed suicide.
I think we just have tostop this wearing of masks.
We're so very good at having amultitude of them and, the greatest
happiness in my life has come frombeing the most authentic, raw, messy
(32:34):
human that I am and not hiding that.
Yeah.
where we connect.
That raw vulnerability is wherewe really connect with people.
And I knew when I was writingthis book that's the only way
that I could write about grief.
for having me.
(32:54):
And, but it's really hard to stand in thatplace because then we risk being judged.
And I just, got to a point where I'mlike, if you walked into my, in my
shoes, I guess you could judge me.
But if you haven't walked in myshoes, then I might not listen to you.
And that's it, so many of us listento the opinions of others and that's
(33:18):
only based on their experiences andtheir knowledge and their whatever.
It's got nothing to do with us really.
It's just, and we take that on boardand we buy into it and then that
screws us up even more sometimes,
Through listening to it.
And it's just really exactly likeyou said, unless you've walked
in my shoes, have your opinion,but I'm not going to buy into
(33:42):
Are you feeling lost, anxious,unsure of how to navigate the
loss of your beautiful loved one.
I don't know where to head next.
Yeah, I get that.
Then you may be interested inthe new offering I've developed
A Letter of Hope and Aroha.
To help you find out whoyou are right here and now.
And how you can navigate that withoutbeing on that emotional roller
(34:05):
coaster feeling out of control.
That's a feeling I really dislikedafter Tahl and then Adrian died.
So I've developed an eight weeksupport program where each week you
get an email of what worked for me.
As well as other tried and true toolsto help with grief, it's a beautiful
calming, mean healing resource thatI think you're really going to like.
(34:30):
And that you can use in youreveryday life to find out what
works for you and what doesn't.
And the great thing is you findyourself feeling stronger and more in
control, so you can work out what youwant life to look like going forward.
So with this sounds like somethingyou would like to check out, head
over to my website, or check outthe link in the episode notes, you're
(34:53):
looking for A Letter of Hope & Aroha.
Yeah.
I think that sometimes, caregivers.
yes.
Yeah.
People who naturally connect in thatcaregiver role also tend to be people
pleasers and I would, I had the peoplepleaser syndrome, where I'm apologizing
(35:16):
for things that I have no business andno reason to apologize for and, trying
to make everybody feel comfortable,even though I'm the least comfortable,
um, so I think that, but, you know,another thing that I think is really
interesting about being a caregiver iswhat could be taboo is, and by HIPAA law
(35:39):
in the United States, we're not allowed toshare medical, Information about somebody
that's their own private business.
And so when I think about grant in hisdesire to not share his diagnosis with
people, I was holding that secret.
(36:00):
And I was carrying that secret around withme every single day, going to work, trying
to function like a normal human being.
And my life was far from normal.
It was a whole different level of crazy.
And there were not many peoplethat I could talk to about that.
Yeah, that's a big burden to carry.
(36:20):
You do it in the most lovingand caring way, for Grant, but
yes, a huge burden nonetheless.
How did you go about discovering what itwas that you needed following his death?
Because like you say, it changesyour whole entire world, your
whole entire outlook on life.
(36:41):
You, you suddenly are left withoutthis beautiful person in your life.
So what does life look likefor you from that point
going forward?
Well, I was stumbling around inthe dark looking for the light
switch in my underwear for years.
I love that.
Oh my gosh , that is the best.
I've
(37:01):
I'm not.
I'm not.
over exaggerating.
Oh,
to say that I had so many dysfunctionalways of trying to cope with my grief,
drinking, promiscuousbehavior, sleeping with men.
I was trying to fill my needsthat were so rock bottom.
(37:24):
I was so So at the rockbottom of having my needs met.
So I came out of that experience withphysical touch as a love language.
You're not going to get awaywith not doing that, I guess.
Um, it really was, oh mygosh, I was liberated.
I was suddenly free from the caregivingresponsibilities and also, I was
(37:49):
left to my own devices of whateverI was going to do or not do in a
healthy, functional way in my life.
I was a functional alcoholic, I say,because I got up, I went to work, I took
care of people, took care of my animals,whatever I did, but I was a party girl.
So I loved going out with people.
I didn't want to be alone.
I wanted to be with people anddrinking was always a part of that.
(38:14):
I've been sober 18 years now, but
that was that was.
an event and quite a thingin my life at that time.
And then despite that, I was alsoopen to a lot of alternative healing.
I was doing Reiki.
I was getting massage.
I was living on Kauai, which is a verynaturally inclined island to that kind
(38:37):
of alternative healing and so I wasable to bring those professionals and
those people in and I've always beenan excellent support system builder.
So people just magically as well cameinto my life as well as I seek them out.
(38:58):
I've always been a support systembuilder and that's one of my strengths.
So I just built this amazingsupport system around me
and I held on for dear life.
And they took care of me.
How do you encourage people who arenot like that, who are not naturally
inclined to being able to build goodsupport systems around themselves?
(39:21):
What advice would you give tosomebody listening right here
and now and says, no, I isolate.
I don't have people around me.
I encourage people to reach out tothe people they do have in their life.
And in particular, maybe even theirone most resourceful friend, their
(39:42):
one most connecting friend who knowseverybody and reach out to that person
and tell them that you need help.
Sometimes you don't even know what youneed, but if you can reach out to that
person, who's a mind reader, who'ssomebody that you can really connect with.
(40:03):
Sometimes.
If you just tell them, I really needyou, I need you to help me navigate
this, they can help you do that.
Separate from that connectingwith a really fantastic therapist.
is really crucial, I think, or areally fantastic grief support group.
You can find them throughdifferent organizations.
(40:27):
Connecting with a group of people who aregoing through something similar to you
and finding that common connectioncan help you feel not as alone.
and they may have resources thatare available to you as well.
It's hard to reach out to people, but youhave to reach out to a lifeline outside
(40:53):
of you because you're not going to knoweverything and you need to find some help.
So that's just really what I wouldencourage people to do, is to just know
You're not supposed to do this alone,
Yeah.
and that's okay, unless you want to, andif that's the type of person that you
(41:16):
are, and you're feeling okay about that, Ialso don't want to judge how somebody else
processes their grief, but there's a pointwhere it, Needs to be more functional
and healthy as you're moving forwardand that can take a long time and that
(41:37):
can look different for different people.
Because I always say that when you'regoing through really deep grief, it's
like everything gets thrown in the mix.
Everything that's ever happened inyour life that wasn't very functional
suddenly starts to rear its ugly head.
And you're not just dealing with griefper se, you're dealing with all of your
(42:02):
life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what's interestingabout that, right.
Is you're an automatic pilot and you'renot living in your best self typically.
We're not living in our best self
when we're grieving.
We're really an automatic pilotof kind of what we default to when
we're not having a good day andwe're not living in our best selves.
(42:26):
So I think that knowing that,is really challenging, right?
And like I talk about the grief pit,I talk about falling in that hole.
And what I encourage peopleto do is just find resources
that can help you build hope.
(42:46):
You know, grab that hand that'sreaching down to you in the grief pit.
You can stay down there, but grab thehand and know you're going to come out.
Know that you don't have to staythere for the rest of your life.
Know that you don't have to staythere 24/7 and 24 hours a day.
(43:06):
You can come out.
And you may go back in, but just knowthat that darkness that you feel the
light will connect with you again.
And it's so hard forpeople to realize that.
And I want to just say what was reallyinteresting is I believe that other
(43:27):
people can be an inspiration anda source of hope for other people.
Your guests on your show, everything thatyou write about, and you connect with
as a professional and individual, right?
Giving people hope that they're going tomove forward through this and be able to
(43:53):
be functional and normal, quote unquote.
Their new normal.
They're new normal, maybe as crazyas ever, but they're new normal
and, that they're going to be ableto feel happiness and joy again.
(44:14):
I realized when I went, I wastaking care of my grandmother
after my grandfather had died.
They were married 60 years and this was,so many years after Grant died and six
years, seven years after Grant died.
And I showed up.
And this was after my grandfatherdied and my grandma looked at me
and she said, I know that I can makeit through this because you did it.
(44:40):
Yeah.
You don't know who's watching you, do you?
And I looked at her and I said, Grandma,I was only with Grant for seven years.
I wasn't with him for 60 years,like you were with grandpa.
And she said, That doesn't matter.
You've loved him.
Yeah.
And it, I have to tell you, I, I wasblown away that this woman who is a
(45:06):
second mom to me had so much wisdom andshe could look at my experience and go,
I'm going to be okay because she did it.
Yeah.
And so I want to say we're sources ofinspiration and hope for one another.
I know that I can fall backin that grief pit again.
(45:27):
I know that I chose to move forwardand get married and love another
man and have step kids and havethese beautiful animals in my life.
I know I'm going to grieve again.
In a deeper way again, and Iknow I'm okay, but I also know
that life is so much stronger.
Life is so much worth living
(45:51):
in that place.
Despite all of that, right?
We can't close ourselves offbecause of what we're afraid
of in terms of losing somebody.
But it's very easy to go there, andit's very easy to close our heart
and shut our heart down becausewe don't want to experience that.
But I want to say once we do our healing.
(46:14):
We have a stronger and a biggercapacity to love even more.
And that's, what is amazing.
Yeah, it's a gift on theother side, isn't it?
Then that's the beauty that I see.
That's the beauty I got revealedto me on the other side of grief.
And that's why this podcastis called exactly that.
(46:35):
One thing that you touched on,and we spoke about feeling guilty
earlier, but people even feel guiltyabout laughing again and Being happy
again after they've lost that, superspecial person from their life.
And it's almost Oh, Ishouldn't feel happy.
Why not?
Of course, if you're in thatmoment feeling happy, that is okay.
(46:57):
We sometimes feel guilty, don't we?
About allowing ourselvesto feel happy again.
It's like we're, Where, what's aphrase, what are we doing to them?
It's just we're not honoringthem or, the vows we made to them
and that's not, just not true.
Yeah.
we're forgetting about them.
We're
not being present in our memory of them.
(47:21):
But really, they wouldn'twant you to be sad.
I really don't think, maybemiss them a little bit.
Okay.
Just a little.
Just miss them a little bit.
But, no.
No.
They wouldn't want, I don't thinkthat they would want us to be
sad for the rest of our lives.
(47:43):
I think that we're here to havethis amazing experience of life
and we're all going to die.
So it's a matter of how do we makethe most of the life that we have.
And despite the fact that our dreams wereshattered, our dreams were shattered.
(48:06):
were taken from us.
Yes.
The experiences that we were goingto have with that person are gone.
They're no longer a part of us here.
The memories are still there, butit doesn't mean that you can't
build new dreams and that you can'thave an amazing life and another
(48:29):
amazing love and an amazing partner.
And that doesn't take awayfrom the relationship that
you had with your loved one.
If you have another child, if you decideto get married again, the relationship
that you have with that person is forever
and it's forever in your heartand you will always have that.
(48:51):
And so for me in my book, what wasso important was for me to write
the journey about moving forward,finding a new partner, embracing
him and bringing him into my life.
Reconciling him living with theghost of my husband, which he did
brilliantly, I could not have connectedwith a better partner in how he
(49:17):
held space for my husband, Grant.
And I want to say that even themystical stuff afterwards that I put
in my book, Sean, my current husband,he didn't know all of those stories.
I didn't tell him.
There's some mysticalstuff in here, honey.
And he's okay, as long as you'renot levitating down the hallway,
(49:39):
I guess I'll be all right with it.
What do we,
yeah.
Just to,
say, yeah,
that, that's in there too.
And he doesn't downplayit or poopoo it either.
He's it's your experience.
absolutely.
And that's really important.
What do we learn about ourselvesfrom our grief, Sheila?
(50:03):
I think number one, when weget to the other side of it, we
learn how strong we really are.
We learn how resilient We are.
We learn how resourceful we can be.
It's like I always say,I see the big picture.
(50:24):
I will never not see thebig picture of what's really
important in this life ever again.
And that big pictureis love, loving people.
And, the journey that we have in thisworld and being there for each other.
It's very easy to get tripped up inall of the mundane different things of
(50:46):
the day, but ultimately, if we reallyremember, we're all in this together
and we can help each other through it.
And that's a choice.
That's the big picture.
And so moving forward, livinglife more vibrantly and
brilliantly and more in love with.
Life and people.
I think ultimately that is the gift onthe other side of working through your
(51:10):
grief is that you will get to that.
And there it is possibleto experience grief.
and joy at the same time.
Yeah.
So yeah,
Yeah.
And like you say, just allow yourselfto hold space for that, for both.
(51:33):
Yeah.
It's
hope's the bridge.
Hope is
the bridge to that.
It raises your vibration as well, andit helps you get out of the grief pit.
So why did you want to share yourstory now so many years after?
It was always there.
My shitty first book that I wrote,that's what I call it, was the one I
(51:57):
emotionally threw up in and had it edited.
And that was my book.
And I wrote that in 2005.
This book was always on the backburner because I read an amazing
book when I was a caregiver.
I read the book, The Caregiver'sCompanion, and when I read
(52:22):
it, I didn't feel alone.
Yes.
person expressed rawness andvulnerability, and I felt that I wanted to
write this book for grievers so that theycould connect with the rawness and the
vulnerability in that grief process andto talk about the things that people were
(52:42):
afraid or they don't want to talk aboutso that you know you're not crazy, you
know that you're not alone, you know thatunder pressure, Other people can validate
you and support you and understand you.
And so if I have touched one person'slife that they can know that I have
done what I needed to do with this book.
(53:05):
And so that was my desire andmy passion for putting this out.
There was to be a supportive.
resource as well as, a supportive personfor other people to share that journey.
I'm surprised that Iactually got this book done.
And when people say, Oh,I want to write a book.
(53:26):
I'm always like, you reallyneed to know what you're
getting into when you say that.
It's not for the faint of heart.
And it actually, when you'reself publishing takes quite
a bit of money as well.
So like you have to havea passion for doing that.
yeah,
And actually to birth it andget it out of you in a way that
(53:49):
people can at least resonate with.
And I had a lot of help.
It wasn't just me doing this.
I have amazing, book coaches and editors,and I brought a lot of really gifted and
talented people in to help with that,but really being able to share the story,
in an authentic way was important to me.
(54:10):
I think that's the key to it too.
Authentic.
So it's real.
It's telling people like it is andallowing people to be okay with whatever
they may be experiencing in that moment.
So I think that is so vitally important.
Yeah.
That's the treasure in your book.
I think now another treasure that goesalongside of it is that you've also
(54:33):
got like a companion journal, haven't
Yes, I have a companion journal thatyou can download from the website,
Sheilaclemonson.Com and people canwork through that it'll eventually
be available on Amazon as well.
But, I wanted to makesure that it was useful.
And so you kind of have to test thingswhen you're putting it out there too.
(54:54):
I think at the beginning, right?
So yeah, there is that, I do a lot ofcoaching with people moving through
transitions from my HR background.
The big fit is the career coaching, butI find that my niche is starting to be
people coming in, experiencing significantloss that can be job loss, death, divorce.
(55:17):
It can be a lot of different things.
And.
I'm helping them find their way movingforward career wise professionally,
because often we still have to pay ourbills and we have to put food on the table
and we have to take care of our family.
And so I'm helping people move forwardwhen they're not living in their
(55:39):
best self, but they have to show upas their best self to move forward.
And
sometimes you need to get away fromwhat you're in, but you don't know
where to go, what that's going tolook like if you're brave enough to
do it, because it does take courage.
It does take bravery to moveout of your comfort zone even
(56:00):
if you don't enjoy what it is,
Yeah.
And I tell my clients, you don'thave to have this figured out.
We'll work on that together.
I have so many people sometimesthey're like, I got to figure
this out before I work with you.
And I'm like, do you understandthat I help you do that?
That's what the transition part is.
(56:22):
You don't have to do it alone.
There's a lot of tools and resourcesthat I'm sharing to help you with that.
And yeah, it's, it's powerful.
I'm passionate about the work I do.
And what's funny is when I wassitting with the book, right.
And I'm like, I have a verysuccessful career coaching business.
It couldn't have been a betterbusiness through the pandemic.
Okay.
(56:42):
Everybody wanted to quit theirjobs and go do something else.
And they were looking for help with that.
And so I was able to build mybusiness through that challenging
time I've had it for six years.
And I thought, Why am I writing the griefbook and not the career coaching book?
And every single timeSpirit, God, Goddess,
Universe, Source, whoever, whateveryou call it, would send me a client
(57:09):
Yes.
didn't need a therapist, but theyneeded help moving through this
to get to where they needed to be.
Professionally meaningful purpose.
Whether that's work or vacationor volunteering or whatever it is.
We're all looking for somekind of meaningful purpose and
(57:29):
what we're doing every day.
And a lot of the time after we've gonethrough a grief experience, we can't do
our normal life the same way ever again.
It's I'm not going to showup for that job that I hate.
I'm not going to be doing this.
You're rewriting your complete contactlist because you're not friends with
or family with those people anymore.
It's
(57:50):
Yeah, so it's a perfect time to bringin somebody to support you and to
help you sort through all of that.
So wise.
Yeah.
And it's reaching out and allowing peopleto do that because yeah, we don't always
have the answers like I, it's funny.
And I've shared this with mylisteners in that, I am typically
(58:11):
very good at whatever I choose to do.
Like I'm just that sort of person.
I go in boots and all, andI'm going to conquer it.
But that's not always necessarilya good thing because, in the latest
instance, that was taking me furtherand further away from this podcast.
And in fact, I was,having less time to do it.
And then like universe just slappedme on the cheek and went, You
(58:36):
need to get your butt back to thisbecause this is where your heart is.
This is where your passion isso you can be good at something.
But what you need to recognizeis what is your passion?
What lights you up?
And for me, it's speakingto people like you,
honestly.
Oh, and that vibrant,sassy spirit you've got.
(58:59):
I read that you also had a different danceparty at the launch of your book, which
I think is such a cool idea, especiallywhen you're talking about a grief book.
Oh my
like grief and
Yes.
Yes.
I had a lit up dance floor.
I did a DJ that played eighties.
I had a Taylor Swift outfit change
(59:23):
I just
I Dr.
I dressed up in my valleygirl eighties outfit.
I was ready to go and I had disco platformshoes that I found at a vintage fair the
name on them was over the rainbow the
oh,
of my book
(59:43):
perfect.
so there you go, like things just allcame together and it was a Celebration
and that's what I wanted it to be.
I wanted it to be a celebration of Allof the people who helped support me move
forward and helping me birth this bookand that we forget to celebrate, to have
(01:00:07):
celebration sometimes for the things thatwe're working on, that we're accomplishing
and we're moving forward with.
And so it was a celebrationthat I wanted to bring forward.
Yeah,
I can understand why Grant justthought you were the bee's knees.
and you know what we were together.
(01:00:28):
And yeah, yeah, I can justfeel him all around me.
He's
I can feel him as well,
yeah, he was very charismaticand he loved dancing.
He sent me those disco platform shoes,just so you know, he was a big Bowie fan
and he was really into shoes himself.
And so I'm like, yeah.
Yeah, he brought those to me.
(01:00:49):
And I have to share
yes, great, that is beautiful.
I
that was a very funny picture of him.
He wanted to have a Fez catbun and he wanted to be goofy.
And so we put it on a button tocelebrate him at his memorial
service.
(01:01:09):
And so
that's that's kind ofhis funny, his funny face
Oh,
me connecting with him.
Oh,
I wanted to share that becausesometimes you really have to find
those ways to connect and bring thathumor back in for you and laugh at
(01:01:30):
those memories and those good times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because there are many goodtimes in there, and that's what
we need to allow ourselves to
go back to and feel that beautifulenergy of those really fun, crazy
times that you had together.
and what I'll say is Grant is nowmy best friend on the other side,
(01:01:54):
Oh, I love that.
Knows that Sean's my husband.
In fact, he's Oh mygosh, good luck to you.
Good luck.
You need all the
help you can get.
But it's, and that'show I've reconciled it.
It's he's my best friendon the other side.
He's not my husband anymore.
And you know
what?
(01:02:14):
That's okay.
absolutely.
So I just want to say that, thingscan change over time and we can bring
that person forward into our lives,rebuilding our lives and living
very happy, full, wonderful lives.
And they still have a place init because why would they not?
(01:02:37):
When they're larger than life whenthey were alive, they're going
to be that way on the other side.
Hallelujah.
Yep, I know I've had some people thatI've spoken to, some clairvoyants mediums
and they go, she's really bossy isn't
She's really what?
Bossy.
Yes.
(01:02:57):
And I go, she was so like thatin life, demanding that we do
stuff and telling us what to do.
And she was just so confidentand she could just pull it off.
And, that's never left.
And I love that.
I love that because that'swhat made her so special.
She was the complete opposite to me.
It was like a.
(01:03:19):
a beautiful, frustrating journey together.
Hey, look, there's some questionsthat I always ask each of my
guests as we wind things up.
And I'd like to know whatis the best thing that has
happened to you so far today?
Oh my gosh.
(01:03:41):
My conversation with you.
Oh,
go on.
you've brought things to life that areprecious to me in this conversation and
this connection is really important.
The connection between ushas been really beautiful.
I'm a connector and with your audience,it just, this is really fabulous.
(01:04:08):
Because I'm a great believer whenpeople feel safe then they just open
their hearts and they open their voicesand that's when you get the gold.
absolutely.
that's what I felt likeconnecting with you Sheila.
We like just hit it off rightfrom the get go and you know it's
been a brilliant conversation.
I'm grateful for that.
What is something thatyou are most grateful for?
(01:04:33):
I am most grateful forthe people in my life.
They're my rock.
They're my support system.
I can say they're my ohana,which is the Hawaii term for
the family you choose, right?
I have an amazing support systemand I would not have made it
through everything without it.
(01:04:53):
And I just am gratefulfor that every single day.
That's beautiful and I think it'sbecause you are such a shining light
that people just gravitate toward you.
So
Thank
you have moments in your day that arenot going so well and we have a term
here when they turn to custard, howdo you pivot out of those moments?
(01:05:15):
Oh, it might be a few fourletter words that I might say.
And then I give myself a new attitudeadjustment and a new affirmation.
That's going to be better.
I quickly look for that better thought.
(01:05:35):
That better experience, and I tryto sometimes look from a curious
place rather than thinking.
I know everything.
So sometimes it's like, well, youknow, maybe that's what you think,
but maybe you, maybe that's not thestory that you need to tell yourself.
oh
That's really key for me andgetting out of those mindsets
and to shift out of that.
(01:05:57):
I really like that.
That's really good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So how can people get hold ofyour book over the rainbow?
Hi.
the depths of grief to hope
it is available on Amazon.
That's the best way to purchase it.
You can also download the companionjournal at Sheila Clemenson.
(01:06:21):
com and that's on the homepagea little further down.
You can tap into that and, you canalso click in from that website into
Amazon to purchase the book as well.
So I'm going to have those links in theepisode notes anyway, but it's always
good for you to be able to share them as
And I think you people justhave to recognize the country
(01:06:43):
that they're in sometimes.
And that, the link won't workif it's a U S versus New Zealand
Oh yeah.
another country.
We live in such a small world nowthat it's crazy that you could
be on the other side of the worldfrom me and yet feel so connected.
Oh,
It's Amazing.
And I love it.
(01:07:04):
Yeah, it opens up a world that you couldnever have imagined, like I think for
the beautiful souls that I connect withon a weekly basis and I just go, Oh, how
lucky am I, there's a richness to that.
Beautiful.
So Sheila, I just have to say to you,what a wonderful hour I got to spend
(01:07:26):
with you having this chat about yourexperiences, caregiving, all the, your
beautiful HR tips about, making sureyou're well supported and getting that
community behind you and, writing thatbeautiful book and from the grassroots
so that it's really going to be
(01:07:46):
of help to people going through asimilar experience that you went through.
So well done.
Congratulations to you.
And I am so grateful that I had theopportunity to speak to you today.
Thank you so much, Helen.
Thank you for theopportunity to connect today.
I loved our time togetherand, yeah, thank you so much.
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