April 17, 2024 • 53 mins
Sometimes we can just be too close to a situation. We don't want to see what is right in front of us. This was true for Rev. Jocelyn when she was facing her beloved father's battle with Alzheimer's. She initially didn't want to see her strong, capable, and loving dad was having issues with memory loss right before her eyes. When she did face it, however, she decided that she was going to her best, along with her brother, to find the happy moments and memories in this journey, as well as supporting their mum, who was his primary caregiver.
This is a great conversation about being human, and being vulnerable, even when you supposedly have all the tools, knowledge, and expertise, as Jocelyn does in the field of trauma and grief. It highlights how you can bring joy into a situation that seems overwhelming. How you can also use these opportunities to ask all those questions you've always wanted to know the answers to. This is also a wonderful conversation around caregiving and how to support your loved ones in that role. Enjoy!
Jocelyn's Bio
Jocelyn is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background as a journalist, executive director of a nonprofit, and community leader allows her to connect with people from all walks of life. She received her bachelor's degree from the University of Iowa in journalism. After receiving her B.A., she earned her master's degree in social work and her master's degree in theological studies. Jocelyn published her first book in 2019, called Breaking the Power of the Mask.
Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the President of Faith on the Journey, a Christian Counseling company specializing in grief and trauma. She is a Master Facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute and the founder of the Women in the Ministry which helps women to start, grow, and sustain transformative ministries that change the world.
Quote:
"The beautiful side of grief is that there's certain memories that we have with our loved ones that bring us tremendous joy." ~ Rev. Jocelyn Jones
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
He was diagnosed with mildcognitive disorder in 2016.
(00:03):
And then he ended up in 2020.
That's when it was pretty, it was rough.
It was bad.
And then slowly what was happening was.
Even though he was still had a strength,he would do things like he would fall.
And one time, I believe this is whatreally set things spiraling is he had
(00:26):
a bad fall and somewhere along the way,because of the fall, he got an infection.
that infection caused himto end up in the hospital.
And when he was in the hospital,he could no longer speak.
And we were there with him.
Seeing him where he really,he was in a lot of pain.
(00:47):
We couldn't get him toengage in conversation.
He really wasn'tinterested in watching TV.
And my brother made a suggestion
My guest on this week's episode of thebeautiful side of grief is a very talented
(01:09):
lady keeping busy with all she is doingto make this world a better place.
As well as being a journalistauthor and community leader.
Jocelyn Jones, or Rev Jocelyn, as sheis also known, is an ordained minister
and the president of Faith on theJourney, a Christian counseling company
specializing in grief and trauma.
(01:31):
She is also a master facilitatorwith the Trauma Healing Institute
and founder of the Women in Ministry,which helps women to start, grow,
and sustain transformative ministriesthat literally change the world.
Oh, and she also hosts her own podcast.
(01:51):
This is one super inspiringlady we are meeting today.
We could literally discuss anythingaround grief as Jocelyn has run
multiple grief groups over the years.
Though, what I would love to firstlydelve into today with Jocelyn is your own
personal and recent journey with the lossof her father to Alzheimer's, culminating
(02:15):
in his recent passing last year.
And if time permits, we can chatabout the other insights Jocelyn
has around the grief journey.
So a very warm welcome and fabulouswelcome to you, Jocelyn, for being
with us on this episode today.
thank you, Helen.
Oh my goodness.
How you just introduced me.
(02:36):
I'm like, Oh, she's so sweet.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Oh, you're very deserving of all ofthat , and I just think it sets the stage
right for our conversation going ahead.
So...
what I would love to understand is just toget a sense of who Jocelyn was growing up.
(02:57):
What sort of home you grew upin, what you were surrounded
by and what influenced you.
Yeah.
So I grew up in Hazel Crest, Illinois,which is a suburb outside of Chicago
with my mom, dad, and my younger brother,who's just two years younger than me.
And I grew up in a loving home.
My mom would stay at home and we wereinvolved in a whole bunch of activities.
(03:22):
And my father, he worked really hardin corporate America, and he was a
superstar to us in his own right,outside of work, he was also known for
his contribution to the martial arts.
My dad was a 10th degree black belt,you didn't want to mess with him.
so he was a celebrity, right?
Absolutely not in the martial arts area.
(03:44):
but yes, my dad, even though he wasvery busy, he still made time to attend
the important events in my life whereI was performing or I had a pageant
or something that was going on, he wasthere and he wasn't the type that was
But he showed his love in other ways byagain, showing up, being encouraging.
(04:09):
And he was just someone whoyou knew he loved you, even if
he didn't say it all the time.
But, I really, really loved my dad.
I was, I guess you couldsay a daddy's girl.
And I'm getting a little bit ahead, Helen.
But when I realized that somethingwas wrong with his memory, it was
very concerning to me and my family.
(04:31):
And when he began to lose hismemory at first, we were kind of
like, Hmm, what's, what's going on?
And I didn't realize that my momwas aware of his memory slowly
declining years before my brotherand I knew something was going on.
What age were you whenyou started noticing this?
(04:55):
Yes.
So it was in 2016.
So I was full grown adult.
when I was in my mid thirties, whenhe began to lose his memory and we
just thought it was something whereit's okay, maybe we can address it.
He got diagnosed with mild cognitivedisorder and he was in his.
(05:16):
mid seventies by this time.
And so we researched, we triedlooking into different things we
can do, but as time progressed,his memory continued to get worse.
And here's the thing, when it comesto a condition like mild cognitive
disorder or Alzheimer's, which iteventually developed into, this was
(05:37):
something that did not happen overnight.
This was traced back years,but slowly, but surely.
It became more evident thathe is losing his memory.
And when it got worse, that's whenit became extremely unsettling to me.
When towards the last two tothree years of his life, he was no
(06:00):
longer the super dad that I knew.
it was.
It was like, wait,what's happening to dad?
I'm losing him.
It was a very interesting,interesting is the wrong word.
It was a very difficult time becauseI was grieving the loss of my dad.
And he was still with us becausehe was not the same person.
(06:23):
I think it's difficult in anysituation to confront or face a loved
one having that type of diagnosis.
And then seeing that develop.
I think it's all, it's worse thoughwhen it is the love of your life,
your daddy's girl, you have thissuper bond with him and he was a
(06:48):
high functioning superstar dad.
So I can only be, I can't even beginto imagine what that was like for you.
We're going to unwrap that alittle bit more in just a moment.
But I just want to backtrack a littlebit and just get an understanding...
were you already involved in griefand trauma and mentoring and helping
(07:11):
others through that at that stage?
Had you already gone on that journey?
I was newly on that journey.
I had been working in the field,when his Alzheimer's actually was
diagnosed maybe about a year or two.
And, that was something whereI was doing grief work, but it
(07:32):
wasn't from a lived experience.
I can say that I had experienced lossbefore, but it was loss of a grandparent,
which still can be very difficult.
I'm not taking that away.
or like a distant, person from the church.
But I never experienced lossthat was this close to me.
So my work in grief was a lot moretheory when I was doing healing
(07:58):
groups and ministering to people.
And As I began to experience theseemotions, it became different
for me when I was going throughmy own slow loss of my dad.
So in a way this has been a difficultbut a really important foundation for
(08:22):
you in helping others deal with theirgrief because there's nothing like a
lived, learned experience is there.
It's not, it's really not, when Ihear someone who's lost a parent,
I now look at it very differently.
because, when you hear peoplego through certain experiences,
(08:42):
you're Oh, that's really difficult.
And you do.
Empathize with them with some emotionsyou feel for them, but when you've gone
through it, you're like, man, I rememberhow I felt and I remember what helped me.
And I also remember what Ididn't like people saying to
me and how this affected me.
(09:04):
and so it's different when you go throughcertain things, because it does, I can
use it for ministry and what you'redoing to serve others in a different way.
Yeah.
And I'm a great believer thatYou know, all our experiences, no
matter how difficult or traumatic,they're all opportunities for
us to learn and grow from.
(09:25):
that's how I choose to look at all thethings that are happening in my life.
I have to find some way toget my head around it all.
But let's go back to your dad,though, and those early days.
Of coming to terms and understandingthat cognitively he wasn't
(09:46):
the same man that you knew.
How did that, how did you cope with that?
How did that affect you?
Well, I didn't at first I was definitelyin the denial department and I was
definitely running from it and this isthe thing prior to my dad, even getting to
this point, he would always want to talkto me about when he's not here anymore.
(10:12):
You need to consider this andprepare for this and I would
shut down the conversation.
I'll be like that.
I appreciate that.
I don't want to hear it.
And I would actually start cryingwhen he would try to talk about
preparing me for his death.
This is before I realizedhis cognitive issues.
So when he began to have difficultycommunicating, there was one time
(10:36):
in which this was in the middle ofCOVID when COVID first started and I
couldn't go visit my family anymore.
And I remember talking to my dad over thephone and it sounded like he was drunk,
even though he didn'thave anything to drink.
It wasn't that it was just, hewas so out of it that I struggled
(10:57):
to stay on the phone with him andhad to rush off the phone because
my tear ducts were just like.
Filling up and I'm like, Ohmy God, I am losing my dad.
And I broke down in tears because thatwas a forced reality check that I had
been trying to not pay attention to that.
My dad is not well, andmy time is running out.
(11:21):
And I remember talking to someone aboutthis before, and they said, when it
comes to something like Alzheimer's ordementia or anything, that's a cognitive
disorder like this, it's like a slow kiss.
Goodbye.
Yes.
it's grieving your loved one twicebecause you're watching that person that
she once knew that version of them dieoff, even though they're still there.
(11:46):
And so the now part, I stayed in thatland as long as I could, until the
reality was like, I don't know howmuch time I have with him and trying
to get to the point where even if hecouldn't remember what we were doing it.
Five or 10 minutes later, how canI create these beautiful moments?
You talk about thebeautiful side of grief.
(12:08):
How can I make these moments that Ican hold on to while he's still here?
And that's when I began to start shiftingmy focus the last two years of his life
to try to make these moments with my dad.
Did you have any regrets that youspent so long in denial about your dad
(12:29):
and not making those memories sooner?
I did.
Oh, that was huge for me.
And partially because I ama high functioning achiever,
like my dad, I get it honest.
And so I was constantly working, busyin ministry, doing all these things.
And so I didn't prioritize, like manyyoung adults, can find themselves doing
(12:52):
at all, but I did not prioritize spendingtime with family initially because I was
so focused on accomplishing these goals.
And so when it dawned on me, I'm runningout of time and then it was COVID.
And then I was feeling like, I,is it safe to visit my parents?
What can I do?
It was like this.
pull.
(13:13):
And finally I said, forget it.
I'm going over there.
I'll be masked up.
I'll try to be safe, but Ineed to get this time in.
But that regret was still there becauseI was like, man, the conversations that
I wanted to have with my dad while he wasfully in his right mind, I'm like, I don't
know if I'll have them anymore or just Ineed more time that I need more advice.
(13:35):
And the things that wetake for granted, right?
When we feel like For whatever reason,as for children, sometimes we just
envision because our parents in somecases are a constant in our lives, we
can take them for granted that they'llbe there, even though we know that
they're not going to always be here.
Death is a reality forall of us at some point.
(13:56):
And yes, to answer your question,there was a lot of regret.
the first
a big thing that often accompanies manypeople on their grief journey is regret.
So what would you recommend tosomeone who is listening right here
and now who is experiencing that?
(14:18):
They are thinking that of all the thingsthey could have, should have, would
have done, what would be your advice?
experience that we can havethat it is as if we're wishing
that we can change the past.
(14:39):
And that's an impossible quest.
So it's really, it's not fruitful andit could cause us to get stuck because
we can't go back and change the past.
It's what has happened.
And so for me, I reallyhad to let go of that.
And it's taken time.
Sometimes it slips back upand I say, you know what?
(15:01):
That's where I was at the time.
And even though I did not take fulladvantage of certain seasons of my
life of spending time with my dad,or for you, whatever individual or
whatever mistake that you made, youhave to release that and say, okay.
am letting go of that because at thetime that's where I was at, but I'm
(15:25):
forgiven, I need to forgive myselfand learn from those moments and
not make the same mistake again.
And for me, and for you, you mentionedthat is opportunity to learn.
I said, okay, when it comes tomy mom, when it comes to other
people in my life, I am going tolove hard and not continue to.
(15:49):
put other things beforemy main priorities.
And so that's somewhat how I look at it.
I'm like, okay, I got to learn from it.
I can't change it, but I don't have tocontinue the same cycle of mistakes.
We can be our own worst enemiesin this regard, can't we?
We can be so tough andso hard on ourselves.
And, I'm very grateful.
(16:10):
And I don't know where this camefrom, but when Tal died, I just chose.
not to have any regrets.
I made mistakes being her mama.
I did things horribly wrong.
I learned from them.
I apologized probably hundreds of timesto her for not quite getting it right.
(16:30):
And, and, but then I thought, I, I don'thave any regrets because she was the best
and biggest, ray of sunshine in my life.
And that's how I wanted to remember herand have her by my side as that person.
And so I guess, like you say, it isa journey and we can choose whether
(16:56):
we want to stay in that regret,or whether we choose to forgive
ourselves and forgiving ourselves.
Oh my gosh, that's so powerful in itself.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe power of forgiveness.
Yes.
forgiveness is really release.
it's releasing, it's letting go.
it's for when we're forgiving others.
(17:17):
That's what it is.
It's releasing the contemptthat you have and saying,
releasing judgment, if you will.
and sometimes that's a huge strugglein itself in terms of releasing,
the, the anger you have towards anindividual for what they did wrong.
But we also need to release the judgment.
Towards ourselves and for me, Iam a Christian who, when I speak
(17:40):
about my faith, accepting God'sforgiveness for us, because.
I believe God knows that we areimperfect individuals and we're
going to mess up sometimes.
And I think for someone who is arecovering perfectionist like myself,
sometimes one of the main reasons westruggle with releasing or forgiving
(18:03):
or accepting God's forgiveness isbecause we have such a high standard
of perfection and perfection is justnot real, is not going to happen.
and we will.
make mistakes, we will fall short.
And so understanding that and saying,okay, I did not do that but I'm
growing and I'm going to let that go.
(18:25):
And I'm going to move forward from thisand try to do better now next time.
And so that's how I look at it.
And it's an ongoing reminder ofhow we have to Operate and give
ourselves grace when we make mistakesand we don't get things just right.
Oh, beautiful.
You hit it right there.
the power of forgivenessand that perfectionism.
(18:48):
Oh my gosh.
I lived with that for most of my life.
So it took me a good, probably more,50 years, sad to say, for me to just,
for me just to let up on myself.
to say it's okay.
you don't need to be perfect anymore.
(19:09):
You don't need to prove yourselfto anybody or, you don't need
to do everything perfectly.
And, once I allowed myself, thatwas like the freedom and the peace
started to come into my life.
And that was beautiful becausesuddenly I wasn't always just
Chasing these unrealistic, highstandards and bars I'd set.
(19:29):
And, just said, okay, if I getthat done today, that's fantastic.
Great.
Good effort.
If I don't, okay, tomorrow's there.
How about that?
How about that?
And do you know what?
When you allow yourself to do that,everybody else just flows with you.
It was you that had theissue, not anybody else.
(19:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's go back to your dad and howlong was his journey for starters?
How long did you have to experiencethe, the decline of his cognition
through to his eventual passing?
Yeah.
So he was diagnosed with mildcognitive disorder in 2016.
(20:12):
And then he ended up in 2020.
That's when it was pretty, it was rough.
It was bad.
And then slowly what was happening was.
Even though he was still had a strength,he would do things like he would fall.
And one time, I believe this is whatreally set things spiraling is he had
(20:36):
a bad fall and somewhere along the way,because of the fall, he got an infection.
that infection caused himto end up in the hospital.
And when he was in the hospital,he could no longer speak.
And we were there with him.
Seeing him where he really,he was in a lot of pain.
(20:56):
We couldn't get him toengage in conversation.
He really wasn'tinterested in watching TV.
And my brother made a suggestion.
He said, why don't we playsome music for my dad?
And so we pulled out his phone andhe put on my dad's favorite song
that he used to play on vinyl and hewould have it on blast in the house.
(21:19):
We played a family reunion by the OJs.
In that moment, my dad startedsinging in the hospital and we just,
I almost started crying tears of joy.
It was just such a beautiful momentbecause he was extremely, he was
happy like in, in with the music.
And for me, the nurses rushed in.
(21:41):
They were like, Mr.
Jones, oh my goodness.
It's this is so cool.
Go ahead and sing.
And so we had a littleconcert in the hospital.
oh, I love
and.
and.
For me, I'll always cherish that memory.
and again, that's the beautiful sideof grief is that there's certain
memories that we have with our lovedones that bring us tremendous joy.
(22:04):
And one of those ways in which we cando that is through the music, right?
Music is one of the lastthings that someone will lose
in terms of their memory.
And I saw that lived out.
And so for me, I'll never ever hear thatsong family reunion and not Think of my
father and smile because of the moments.
(22:25):
and that's the thing I had to learn thateven though my dad could not remember
certain things that we were experiencingtogether when he really declined and
eventually passed in 2022, I still had.
Those memories that I could holdon to and create while he was still
here up until the very last breath.
(22:46):
And so that's what I hold onto when I'm missing my dad.
Oh, that is so powerful andso beautiful and I love that.
It just made me thinkwhile you were speaking.
I remember, and I don't know if I'vegot this right or not, it's so long
ago, but I remember something aboutthe reptilian brain and rhythm.
(23:10):
Which is what music is, and sound,and rhythm, and things like that.
So maybe that's why it's oneof the last things to go.
What other beautiful memories wereyou able to create with your dad?
Yeah, I think just the times in which Iwould take him out to lunch or to dinner
(23:31):
or he ended up paying for it, or thetimes in which I would just record him
when I realized that he was losing hismemory, I made an attempt to record as
much as possible so I could hold on to it.
And so I would interview himand this is the journalism.
Background in me.
I'm like, ask questions and I'mrecording it, whether it's on
(23:51):
my iPhone or setting up video.
And that was really important for mebecause I wanted to capture the essence
of my dad before his memory fullydeclined some of the footage I got.
But even when it was in the lattertimes, I did that with him and I
also tried my best to do thingsthat were just funny for him.
(24:14):
I remember.
My dad, again, 10th degree black belt.
So even right before he passed,he still remember karate.
He couldn't remember half ofanything, but he remember karate.
And so I would ask himquestions around karate.
And I said, dad, show me some moves.
And he's almost 82 at this point.
(24:34):
And he's before you do some moves, I needyou to drop down and give me 20 pushups.
it was funny.
Because I would do the pushupsand then he would lose count
and tell me to start over again.
It was such a mess, but it was funnybecause he was laughing at me as I fell
on my face, but it brought him joy andit made a memory, and so I just had
(24:58):
to find ways in which I could bond andlaugh through the sadness, because.
It was very, it was a mixed bag ofemotions of laughing and then crying
almost at the same time of accepting thereality, but I just said to myself, every
second I'm going to embrace, with thisdear loved one of mine, which I call dad.
(25:22):
It
very overwhelming being in that depth ofsadness for such for such long periods
of time and so I love that you wereable to find that laughter to create
a balance and bring your system backto some sort of, normalcy and then
be able to then cope with the next
(25:45):
episode.
That's such good advice.
And also recording.
Wow.
What a brilliant idea.
I bet there are people who are goingto listen to this episode and go,
right, that is what I need to do.
Even if it's not with Alzheimer's, evenif it's with a, a chronic illness or
Somebody who's in a, a terminal diagnosis.
(26:08):
What a brilliant time to startgetting your phone out and asking
all of those questions that younever thought or always assumed you
would have time to ask but never did.
Wow.
Great suggestions.
Cool.
Yeah, that's really good.
So it's about living in the presentwith your loved one, isn't it?
(26:31):
It forces you to do that.
When you think about it, it's liketaking in every moment and realizing
that when it comes to what my dadwas going through, it was difficult.
Difficult for him to, and that'sthe thing at some point when he was
still wrestling with the fact that hewas losing his memory and realizing
(26:52):
that certain things were off, it wasdifficult for him to accept that reality.
That's something is wrong with me,and then when we got to the point
where we had to make difficultdecisions, make sure he's not driving.
And my dad was a very independent person,those emotions that he was feeling when
we're taking his independence away, itwas, he was mad, but we had to watch,
(27:18):
we had to do what was best for him.
And so my mom.
God bless her.
She's still living as shewas the primary caretaker.
And so she carried a lot of the loadand a lot of the emotional burden and
bless any of the caretakers out therebecause it's such a difficult path.
But the extended family, my brotherand I, We also realized that this is
(27:39):
challenging and when you are caring forsomeone who needs that type of support
in that type of care, you want to do yourpart to support the primary caregiver
who is also experiencing a level ofgrief because they're slowly watching
this decline, but they're also, dealingwith the emotional, addiction at all.
(28:01):
How do I say it?
Like my dad giving her the flux inthis case, because of his hurt and
his disease in many cases, because itgot to a point where it might not have
been him struggling emotionally withletting go, but he just was not well
enough because of the Alzheimer's.
And so his emotions wouldsometimes be unregulated and it
(28:21):
was very difficult for my mom.
Yeah.
So are you reading my mindbecause you're answering the
questions I was just going to ask.
I was just going, I was just going toask you, how did you need to best support
your mom as the primary caregiver?
what sort of things really helped her?
(28:43):
Yeah, we just tried to get overthere as much as we could to visit,
because if we came to visit, shecan finally get some reprieve.
She can maybe go into the other room ormaybe go and do some grocery shopping.
And so I think showing upFirst of all is very important.
I think being a listening ear sothat they can vent and be raw with
(29:05):
their venting without judgment,because no one knows what it's
like to be the primary caregiver.
And sometimes you wanna curse, sometimesyou wanna be like, this drove me crazy.
and you need a safe spaceto say all of those things.
And just providing that.
For that individual and sometimesjust offering some practical
support, okay, mom, or whoever thecaregiver is, let me take dad here.
(29:29):
Let me take him out thehouse so you can just sleep.
And do whatever that is veryhelpful and also just making sure
that you encourage the caregiver.
In this case, my mom, maybe weneed to have you plug into a
support group for caregivers.
Okay, mom, what are youdoing to care for yourself?
Because the pressure and stressof being a caregiver can really
(29:53):
do something to their health.
And so being mindful of that aswell and just checking on their
well being is important to.
They are such unsung heroes, aren't they?
the caregivers, the silent caregiversout there in the world who just get
on with it, do what they need to don'ttend to really complain or gripe about
(30:16):
it because what's the point of it?
And Yeah, we have thousands upon thousandsof beautiful souls, doing that job.
how do you support them after theylose their loved one who has been a
mainstay of their life for so very long.
And in those last years, it's basicallybeen a 24 seven role, hasn't it?
(30:40):
it is.
It is.
It is, is an interesting transition.
and again, I say interesting loosely.
That's not the best word.
it's like a transition for thatindividual that's unique for them.
Because for some, it's a relief thatthey are not on 24 seven and they have
all this free time that they didn't havebefore, but it's also tremendous grief.
(31:04):
Yeah.
It's a mixed bag because the workand the requirements that you have
of being on all the time, it'sit's so consuming of your life.
And so now it's wait, Idon't have to do this.
my mom, she hardly ever got a good night'ssleep when my dad was in his late stages.
(31:26):
because of the fact he would wanderaround the house and, come in
and be disturbing and everything.
And so for her, it's one of those thingswhere her sleep pattern hasn't fully
recovered because of just the consistencyof caring for him for so many years.
So the time it takes after theirdeath to get acclimated to now, what.
(31:49):
Do I do with this time?
How do I, reengage certain thingsthat I might have stopped doing?
And what's this path forward now Ineed to grieve as well after all.
So it's, it takes a lot oftime and a lot of support.
And I always say that I thinkthat individuals who have been
caregivers or just someone whohas experienced a loss like that
(32:12):
should find places in which you can.
Talk about these emotions and slowlybegin to unpack everything, whether
that's through individual counseling,whether that's through a support group.
But I don't believe that weshould carry the burdens and
our grief journey by ourself.
And so for me, if this is something thatif you're dealing with, I encourage you
(32:37):
to plug into some sort of community tohelp you to move forward, as you grieve.
because there are, there are a lotof empty days or spaces in your day,
when you've gone from 24 7 caregivingto suddenly having nothing, and it's
almost like too much time to think andthen if you get into the wrong thought
patterns, you can start ruminatingon stuff that's not very healthy
(33:00):
for you or, good for your psyche.
yeah, I totally agree.
so tell me the value of, grief groups.
which you're a master in.
That grief groups can be verybeneficial because it, it is a space
to remind you that you are not byyourself in these heavy emotions.
(33:26):
And it's a place in which, tosome extent, people understand.
Now, I say that loosely because, again,each of our grief journeys are different.
So your experience with grief isnot going to exactly mirror mine.
However, in terms of acknowledgingthe pain and feeling validated to
(33:46):
have these heavy emotions, sometimeswe need that because other people
who might not be familiar with you.
The type of grief you might be goingthrough, say, for instance, you lost a
child or you lost a spouse, or has someother loss that is specific in nature.
If you are around others who'vegone through a similar loss
(34:07):
is some connectivity there.
And you can say, okay, ifyou've made it through this,
how did you make it through it?
And at least you get why I'min excruciating pain right now.
And I can't sleep at night.
So it was being around.
And also don't minimize your pain.
One of the issues, fortunately that Ifind a lot in my faith tradition in the
(34:29):
Christian church, and it could be in otherfaith traditions as well, is the fact that
sometimes people use Christian platitudes.
Bible verses to minimize ortry to make people feel better.
They're really trying toencourage you with these words.
And so they'll quote scripturesbecause they don't know what to say.
And they'll say cute little sayings justbecause they want to fill space and they
(34:53):
don't know what to say, but it can alsomake people feel worse, because it could
feel like my pain is being minimized and,I know you're saying that God got another
angel in heaven, but I want my child here.
I want my spouse here.
And so it can actually be hurtful forsomeone when they hear those things.
(35:14):
And so in a grief group, youdon't necessarily have to
worry about that as much.
And you have a trained facilitator who'sgoing to organize the conversation in such
a way where your feelings, your experienceis validated and you don't have to
also worry about burdening otherpeople with these heavy emotions
(35:38):
that they might not be at a placewhere they can hold people are often
uncomfortable with talking aboutgrief and when they see someone cry,
they Oh, no, I don't know what to do.
And so they again, they could justsay certain things or just try to
change the subject or try to fix it.
Fix you.
But grief doesn't have to be grief issomething that doesn't need to be fixed.
(35:58):
Grief is a real natural emotionand needs a space to be expressed.
And so the grief groupsprovide that for you.
Everything you've just said thereis so important To have a safe space
where you can be authentically you andhow you need to express your grief.
(36:20):
And know that it can be validatedby others, and then even form
friendships with others becauseyou just connect with somebody.
You connect with the soul in that groupwho may not be on the same journey
as you, but you feel that connection.
You feel that they getit, they understand.
Isn't that so important?
(36:41):
Yeah.
very Helen.
Are you feeling lost, anxious,unsure of how to navigate the
loss of your beautiful loved one.
I don't know where to head next.
Yeah, I get that.
Then you may be interested inthe new offering I've developed
A Letter of Hope and Aroha.
To help you find out whoyou are right here and now.
(37:03):
And how you can navigate that withoutbeing on that emotional roller
coaster feeling out of control.
That's a feeling I really dislikedafter Tahl and then Adrian died.
So I've developed an eight weeksupport program where each week you
get an email of what worked for me.
As well as other tried andtrue tools to help with grief.
(37:26):
It's a beautiful calming, meanhealing resource that I think
you're really going to like.
And that you can use in youreveryday life to find out what
works for you and what doesn't.
And the great thing is you findyourself feeling stronger and more in
control, so you can work out what youwant life to look like going forward.
(37:47):
So with this sounds like somethingyou would like to check out, head
over to my website, or check outthe link in the episode notes, you're
looking for A Letter of Hope & Aroha.
Oh, yes, this is goodinformation, Jocelyn.
I know that we've talked about a lotof things about Alzheimer's and what
(38:10):
are some things that perhaps we haven'ttalked about that you feel people most
need to know if they're embarking or onthat journey, or if you're supporting
people who are on that journey.
I would just say that dealing withanticipatory grief of this nature
(38:32):
where you are seeing that I don'thave much time can be very difficult.
It's hard to accept and we can findourselves in a similar situation
as me where you try to deny theseriousness of the situation.
You don't want to find yourselfexperiencing that type of regret
(38:53):
of, I should have spent moretime, I should have done this.
And so I just encourage you to do yourbest to make the most time, make the
most of the time you have with them.
This is honestly a practice that we, Ibelieve can strive to do with everyone,
regardless of if they have an illnessthat we love to make the most of the time
we have with them, but also realize thateven if they can't remember, Again, you
(39:19):
can remember if their memory is fadingand they forget that you threw them a
80th birthday party, you'll still havethe memories from the 80th birthday party
that you can hold on to the pictures,the videos, whatever you can get.
And they still can experience joy.
They can still experience laughter,even if the memory is fleeting.
(39:43):
And so for them in those moments, again,it forces you to be in the present with
that individual, be in the present ina loving way, in a joint, joyful way,
do the things that, make them happy,connect with them over music, because
I'm telling you music brings out the bestin people, in terms of those memories.
And so that's what Iwould encourage you to do.
(40:05):
And then be plugged into family.
Because as you are journeyingwith someone who is losing
their memory, it's difficult.
And so being around loved ones whocare about that individual and can
lift you up and encourage you, andthat you can be honest with your
grief about what you're feeling inthose moments, you need an outlet.
(40:26):
And so plug into that as you arejourneying forward, through this
process with your loved one.
What I know about a lot of caregiversis that they are exactly that.
They are the givers.
How do they advocate for the self carethat they need along that journey?
(40:49):
Oh, it's very difficult.
And in each individual, theirsituation's different, right?
Because sometimes you might nothave the financial means to get.
part time caregiver in and if that's thecase, maybe there might be some social
service programs that you can researchto try to get some additional support
because it's really difficult to do the24 hour care and not have any break.
(41:15):
and then the other thing is lookinginto family and you might have
family, but they might not be local.
They might not take initiative.
You might not want to ask them.
And so the best advice I can giveyou is to Do your best to try to
explore resources that are available.
And if you do have to be the primarycaregiver and you don't really get
(41:38):
breaks, like you needed, there aresupport groups where you can at least
for an hour plug in to maybe a zoom.
a support group or something whereyou can talk and vent and get it out
and connect with other caregivers whoare going through something similar.
I've hosted caregiver supportgroups or meetings before, workshops
(42:00):
that is for individuals and just.
hearing them talk and say, man, I've gonethrough this, or this was so hard for me.
And then in just, in some cases, justcrying openly about their struggle as a
caregiver was healing in nature for them.
And so in some type ofway, you need an outlet to.
Talk about what you are going through, andif you can get a breakaway to sneak away,
(42:25):
just have quiet time to even just sitand stare at the wall, but just not have
to do that work, we need that time away.
So I would explore social serviceagencies to see if you can get someone
to support you, or you have a placewhere you can take your loved one
for those small breaks in between.
great advice there, Jocelyn.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
(42:48):
Now, you talked about anticipatory grief.
Let's talk about end of lifeand preparing for end of life.
Did you and your family discusswith your dad what he wanted
his funeral to look like?
Yes, so he tried to discuss it with me.
As I mentioned, I just was not in aplace where I was ready to receive it.
(43:12):
But my mom, they had conversationsabout it and he did a good job in terms
of putting things together for me.
For the state, which I'm so grateful for.
if that's something that anyone who'slistening right now, if you could try to
facilitate some of those conversationsahead of time, so it's not a hot
mess because grief is hard already.
(43:32):
But when you got a disaster withthe state, that makes it worse.
And I do, It worked out for me, but ifI could go back in time, I would try
to be more open to engaging in some ofthe conversations around life after his
death, because it's such a difficultconversation to have, but it's also
(43:54):
an important conversation to have.
And you can't, Ask the person tocome back from the grave afterwards
and say, but what about this?
Or what about that?
you can't do that.
And so even though you might startcrying, even though it's uncomfortable,
even though you do not want to talkabout it, quite frankly, it is something
that we do need to talk about becausethe flip side of this is, if, in my
(44:16):
case, if my parents weren't, Aheadof the game in terms of a state
planning and things were in disarray,it would have been a hot mess for us.
And so maybe it's something whereyou do need to initiate certain
conversations as difficult as they are.
This is what I love about what we'reboth doing with the shows that we're
doing, is that we're highlighting thesethings that are typically Not really
(44:42):
talked about a lot in society and oh,yeah, we can deal with that another day.
We've got a long time,before that happens.
But actually, we absolutely do notknow what is around the corner for us.
And so the earlier we can have thesetypes of conversations and accept that
they are healthy conversations, thebetter because, let's just deal with
(45:08):
the fact that, we may not have tomorrow,
That's
yeah, we've got here and we'vegot now let's make the most of it.
That just came to mind as youwere talking about that, about how
important those conversations are.
And, I came across a couple ofbeautiful ladies that developed
a card game called the Deaf Deck.
(45:28):
And it's, yes, you canhave parties around this.
And you can deal out, you can do it in anumber of different ways, but you can deal
out the cards and they all have reallypivotal questions, for people to consider.
Do you want a celebration of deathor do you want a celebration of life?
(45:49):
yeah, and do you want that to happen?
Before, if you know that somebody hasgot an illness, do you want that to
happen before so you get all the peoplethat you want around you and you have
this great party where you get toshare memories and talk about the good
(46:10):
times and do all that sort of stuff.
before, it's that sort ofconversation that can happen.
And it's just beautiful because itjust makes you think and consider
what is it that you would really like.
I love that.
Jocelyn, we're not going to get totalk about, grief and trauma perhaps,
(46:33):
that's an opportunity we can do downthe line, because I also think trauma
and grief is very much wrapped intogether, and a very big part of it.
topic, for us to be sharing.
But I want to let you know how gratefulI am for what you've shared today
around your own experiences with yourdad and with your mom and with your
(46:55):
family and how you've been dealing withthat journey you've had on Alzheimer's.
There are a few questions I finish offevery episode with and these are, the
first one is, what is the best thingthat has happened to you so far today?
Mmh.
The best thing that's happened.
(47:16):
Wow.
That's a good question.
I would just say that I wokeup next to my husband and.
We are in such a loving place rightnow, in spite of the storms that
we've gone through, and I said, God,thank you for allowing me to see
another day with someone who I love.
I think that would probablybe the highlight of the day.
(47:38):
Oh, that's pretty beautiful.
What a beautiful wayto start your day off.
Oh, yeah.
and we're talking about gratitude now.
What is something thatyou are most grateful for?
I'm grateful for, the lessons that I'velearned from the mistakes that I've made.
(47:58):
I have, for the longest again, recoveringperfectionists have really struggled with
condemnation because of the mistakes andfailures, but I'm really learning to say.
It's okay, sis.
God has used these mistakes thatyou've made to do tremendous work
to actually start your ministry.
It makes you authentic and beable to connect with people.
(48:22):
So no, it's okay.
It is okay.
and so I've grown tremendouslyfrom the failures and missteps
that I've made along the way.
And so I'm grateful for how,I've been able to move forward
in spite of those things.
I love that answer.
because that shows vulnerability.
(48:42):
Yes, recovering perfectionists.
We always find those things alittle bit tricky, don't we?
Yeah.
Being kind to ourselves.
When you have moments in your daythat turn to custard when they
are not going so well, how doyou pivot out of those moments?
(49:06):
have learned that we don'thave to wait until the new
year to hit the reset button.
Every hour, every second,sometimes we can choose to reset.
and so when I find myself going there.
Because I can spiral,I can get in my head.
(49:26):
I'm an introvert and I can startthinking about these negative
thoughts and what I should have,could have did and what went wrong.
I have learned how to snap myselfout of that and say, okay, is
this serving me to think this way?
Can I change it?
let me hit the reset button.
This is a new hour.
(49:46):
This is a new moment and Idon't have to let what just
happened ruin the rest of my day.
That's a choice for me to let thiscause me to unravel just because this
person acted the fool or this mistakehappened or whatever the case may be.
And so I'm choosing to reset this now andhave this outlook for the rest of the day.
(50:09):
Oh, that is great advice.
Love that.
So I'm going to have all the linksof how people can reach you, plus
your bio and the episode notes.
would you like to just sharehow they can reach you?
What's the easiest wayto reach you just now?
And also any partingcomments you may have for us.
(50:31):
Sure.
I think the catch all website togo to is my website, jocelynjjones.
com.
And you'll learn about books andresources and speaking and the
things I do on my podcast as well.
And so I would say, checkthat out right there.
And the other thing I would just mentionis whatever you might struggle with,
(50:52):
this might be a season of grief for you.
It could be a season where you'rejust going through a challenging time,
whatever is going on in your life.
Just remember that we'renot meant to do life alone.
Even as an introvert who likesto spend time alone, I have
found that I still need people.
I still need community and I still needto have safe places that I can go to,
(51:17):
to be honest, where I don't have to beReverend Jocelyn, you don't have to be
whatever your title is, you can just be.
We are human beings, not human doers.
And so when it comes to, healing, whenit comes to grieving, when it comes to
caring for ourselves, sometimes we haveto stop the doing and just be and be
in an authentic places where we can behonest about what we're struggling with.
(51:41):
So find that place wherever that might be.
That's beautiful.
Why is it that introverted perfectionistsalways are out there doing so much?
That's a trend there.
I
Have you thought of,
over performance.
I know,
going on?
oh my gosh, especially when wejust crave our own space and love
(52:04):
being in our own space, like I,I often have thought about that.
Oh, now, something I also remembered,you have a free grief resource that
people can access as well, don't you?
Thank you for asking.
Yes, I do have a free grief resourceguide that anyone who is interested
in it's like a grief survival kit.
(52:25):
It offers you some resources to help youto navigate what you're going through.
So I'll make sure that you have thatavailable in the link as well, the show
so that you can download that for free.
Oh, that would be perfect.
Ah, Rev Jocelyn, what an absoluteprivilege and honor it has been
(52:46):
to connect with you today, tohave you share so openly your
own heart about your own grief.
And I think that's going toserve our listeners so very well.
And, truly, there are so many gemsin what we've talked about today.
And I am very gratefulfor the opportunity.
(53:07):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, Helen.
He was diagnosed with mildcognitive disorder in 2016.
(00:03):
And then he ended up in 2020.
That's when it was pretty, it was rough.
It was bad.
And then slowly what was happening was.
Even though he was still had a strength,he would do things like he would fall.
And one time, I believe this is whatreally set things spiraling is he had
(00:26):
a bad fall and somewhere along the way,because of the fall, he got an infection.
that infection caused himto end up in the hospital.
And when he was in the hospital,he could no longer speak.
And we were there with him.
Seeing him where he really,he was in a lot of pain.
(00:47):
We couldn't get him toengage in conversation.
He really wasn'tinterested in watching TV.
And my brother made a suggestion
My guest on this week's episode of thebeautiful side of grief is a very talented
(01:09):
lady keeping busy with all she is doingto make this world a better place.
As well as being a journalistauthor and community leader.
Jocelyn Jones, or Rev Jocelyn, as sheis also known, is an ordained minister
and the president of Faith on theJourney, a Christian counseling company
specializing in grief and trauma.
(01:31):
She is also a master facilitatorwith the Trauma Healing Institute
and founder of the Women in Ministry,which helps women to start, grow,
and sustain transformative ministriesthat literally change the world.
Oh, and she also hosts her own podcast.
(01:51):
This is one super inspiringlady we are meeting today.
We could literally discuss anythingaround grief as Jocelyn has run
multiple grief groups over the years.
Though, what I would love to firstlydelve into today with Jocelyn is your own
personal and recent journey with the lossof her father to Alzheimer's, culminating
(02:15):
in his recent passing last year.
And if time permits, we can chatabout the other insights Jocelyn
has around the grief journey.
So a very warm welcome and fabulouswelcome to you, Jocelyn, for being
with us on this episode today.
thank you, Helen.
Oh my goodness.
How you just introduced me.
(02:36):
I'm like, Oh, she's so sweet.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Oh, you're very deserving of all ofthat , and I just think it sets the stage
right for our conversation going ahead.
So...
what I would love to understand is just toget a sense of who Jocelyn was growing up.
(02:57):
What sort of home you grew upin, what you were surrounded
by and what influenced you.
Yeah.
So I grew up in Hazel Crest, Illinois,which is a suburb outside of Chicago
with my mom, dad, and my younger brother,who's just two years younger than me.
And I grew up in a loving home.
My mom would stay at home and we wereinvolved in a whole bunch of activities.
(03:22):
And my father, he worked really hardin corporate America, and he was a
superstar to us in his own right,outside of work, he was also known for
his contribution to the martial arts.
My dad was a 10th degree black belt,you didn't want to mess with him.
so he was a celebrity, right?
Absolutely not in the martial arts area.
(03:44):
but yes, my dad, even though he wasvery busy, he still made time to attend
the important events in my life whereI was performing or I had a pageant
or something that was going on, he wasthere and he wasn't the type that was
But he showed his love in other ways byagain, showing up, being encouraging.
(04:09):
And he was just someone whoyou knew he loved you, even if
he didn't say it all the time.
But, I really, really loved my dad.
I was, I guess you couldsay a daddy's girl.
And I'm getting a little bit ahead, Helen.
But when I realized that somethingwas wrong with his memory, it was
very concerning to me and my family.
(04:31):
And when he began to lose hismemory at first, we were kind of
like, Hmm, what's, what's going on?
And I didn't realize that my momwas aware of his memory slowly
declining years before my brotherand I knew something was going on.
What age were you whenyou started noticing this?
(04:55):
Yes.
So it was in 2016.
So I was full grown adult.
when I was in my mid thirties, whenhe began to lose his memory and we
just thought it was something whereit's okay, maybe we can address it.
He got diagnosed with mild cognitivedisorder and he was in his.
(05:16):
mid seventies by this time.
And so we researched, we triedlooking into different things we
can do, but as time progressed,his memory continued to get worse.
And here's the thing, when it comesto a condition like mild cognitive
disorder or Alzheimer's, which iteventually developed into, this was
(05:37):
something that did not happen overnight.
This was traced back years,but slowly, but surely.
It became more evident thathe is losing his memory.
And when it got worse, that's whenit became extremely unsettling to me.
When towards the last two tothree years of his life, he was no
(06:00):
longer the super dad that I knew.
it was.
It was like, wait,what's happening to dad?
I'm losing him.
It was a very interesting,interesting is the wrong word.
It was a very difficult time becauseI was grieving the loss of my dad.
And he was still with us becausehe was not the same person.
(06:23):
I think it's difficult in anysituation to confront or face a loved
one having that type of diagnosis.
And then seeing that develop.
I think it's all, it's worse thoughwhen it is the love of your life,
your daddy's girl, you have thissuper bond with him and he was a
(06:48):
high functioning superstar dad.
So I can only be, I can't even beginto imagine what that was like for you.
We're going to unwrap that alittle bit more in just a moment.
But I just want to backtrack a littlebit and just get an understanding...
were you already involved in griefand trauma and mentoring and helping
(07:11):
others through that at that stage?
Had you already gone on that journey?
I was newly on that journey.
I had been working in the field,when his Alzheimer's actually was
diagnosed maybe about a year or two.
And, that was something whereI was doing grief work, but it
(07:32):
wasn't from a lived experience.
I can say that I had experienced lossbefore, but it was loss of a grandparent,
which still can be very difficult.
I'm not taking that away.
or like a distant, person from the church.
But I never experienced lossthat was this close to me.
So my work in grief was a lot moretheory when I was doing healing
(07:58):
groups and ministering to people.
And As I began to experience theseemotions, it became different
for me when I was going throughmy own slow loss of my dad.
So in a way this has been a difficultbut a really important foundation for
(08:22):
you in helping others deal with theirgrief because there's nothing like a
lived, learned experience is there.
It's not, it's really not, when Ihear someone who's lost a parent,
I now look at it very differently.
because, when you hear peoplego through certain experiences,
(08:42):
you're Oh, that's really difficult.
And you do.
Empathize with them with some emotionsyou feel for them, but when you've gone
through it, you're like, man, I rememberhow I felt and I remember what helped me.
And I also remember what Ididn't like people saying to
me and how this affected me.
(09:04):
and so it's different when you go throughcertain things, because it does, I can
use it for ministry and what you'redoing to serve others in a different way.
Yeah.
And I'm a great believer thatYou know, all our experiences, no
matter how difficult or traumatic,they're all opportunities for
us to learn and grow from.
(09:25):
that's how I choose to look at all thethings that are happening in my life.
I have to find some way toget my head around it all.
But let's go back to your dad,though, and those early days.
Of coming to terms and understandingthat cognitively he wasn't
(09:46):
the same man that you knew.
How did that, how did you cope with that?
How did that affect you?
Well, I didn't at first I was definitelyin the denial department and I was
definitely running from it and this isthe thing prior to my dad, even getting to
this point, he would always want to talkto me about when he's not here anymore.
(10:12):
You need to consider this andprepare for this and I would
shut down the conversation.
I'll be like that.
I appreciate that.
I don't want to hear it.
And I would actually start cryingwhen he would try to talk about
preparing me for his death.
This is before I realizedhis cognitive issues.
So when he began to have difficultycommunicating, there was one time
(10:36):
in which this was in the middle ofCOVID when COVID first started and I
couldn't go visit my family anymore.
And I remember talking to my dad over thephone and it sounded like he was drunk,
even though he didn'thave anything to drink.
It wasn't that it was just, hewas so out of it that I struggled
(10:57):
to stay on the phone with him andhad to rush off the phone because
my tear ducts were just like.
Filling up and I'm like, Ohmy God, I am losing my dad.
And I broke down in tears because thatwas a forced reality check that I had
been trying to not pay attention to that.
My dad is not well, andmy time is running out.
(11:21):
And I remember talking to someone aboutthis before, and they said, when it
comes to something like Alzheimer's ordementia or anything, that's a cognitive
disorder like this, it's like a slow kiss.
Goodbye.
Yes.
it's grieving your loved one twicebecause you're watching that person that
she once knew that version of them dieoff, even though they're still there.
(11:46):
And so the now part, I stayed in thatland as long as I could, until the
reality was like, I don't know howmuch time I have with him and trying
to get to the point where even if hecouldn't remember what we were doing it.
Five or 10 minutes later, how canI create these beautiful moments?
You talk about thebeautiful side of grief.
(12:08):
How can I make these moments that Ican hold on to while he's still here?
And that's when I began to start shiftingmy focus the last two years of his life
to try to make these moments with my dad.
Did you have any regrets that youspent so long in denial about your dad
(12:29):
and not making those memories sooner?
I did.
Oh, that was huge for me.
And partially because I ama high functioning achiever,
like my dad, I get it honest.
And so I was constantly working, busyin ministry, doing all these things.
And so I didn't prioritize, like manyyoung adults, can find themselves doing
(12:52):
at all, but I did not prioritize spendingtime with family initially because I was
so focused on accomplishing these goals.
And so when it dawned on me, I'm runningout of time and then it was COVID.
And then I was feeling like, I,is it safe to visit my parents?
What can I do?
It was like this.
pull.
(13:13):
And finally I said, forget it.
I'm going over there.
I'll be masked up.
I'll try to be safe, but Ineed to get this time in.
But that regret was still there becauseI was like, man, the conversations that
I wanted to have with my dad while he wasfully in his right mind, I'm like, I don't
know if I'll have them anymore or just Ineed more time that I need more advice.
(13:35):
And the things that wetake for granted, right?
When we feel like For whatever reason,as for children, sometimes we just
envision because our parents in somecases are a constant in our lives, we
can take them for granted that they'llbe there, even though we know that
they're not going to always be here.
Death is a reality forall of us at some point.
(13:56):
And yes, to answer your question,there was a lot of regret.
the first
a big thing that often accompanies manypeople on their grief journey is regret.
So what would you recommend tosomeone who is listening right here
and now who is experiencing that?
(14:18):
They are thinking that of all the thingsthey could have, should have, would
have done, what would be your advice?
experience that we can havethat it is as if we're wishing
that we can change the past.
(14:39):
And that's an impossible quest.
So it's really, it's not fruitful andit could cause us to get stuck because
we can't go back and change the past.
It's what has happened.
And so for me, I reallyhad to let go of that.
And it's taken time.
Sometimes it slips back upand I say, you know what?
(15:01):
That's where I was at the time.
And even though I did not take fulladvantage of certain seasons of my
life of spending time with my dad,or for you, whatever individual or
whatever mistake that you made, youhave to release that and say, okay.
am letting go of that because at thetime that's where I was at, but I'm
(15:25):
forgiven, I need to forgive myselfand learn from those moments and
not make the same mistake again.
And for me, and for you, you mentionedthat is opportunity to learn.
I said, okay, when it comes tomy mom, when it comes to other
people in my life, I am going tolove hard and not continue to.
(15:49):
put other things beforemy main priorities.
And so that's somewhat how I look at it.
I'm like, okay, I got to learn from it.
I can't change it, but I don't have tocontinue the same cycle of mistakes.
We can be our own worst enemiesin this regard, can't we?
We can be so tough andso hard on ourselves.
And, I'm very grateful.
(16:10):
And I don't know where this camefrom, but when Tal died, I just chose.
not to have any regrets.
I made mistakes being her mama.
I did things horribly wrong.
I learned from them.
I apologized probably hundreds of timesto her for not quite getting it right.
(16:30):
And, and, but then I thought, I, I don'thave any regrets because she was the best
and biggest, ray of sunshine in my life.
And that's how I wanted to remember herand have her by my side as that person.
And so I guess, like you say, it isa journey and we can choose whether
(16:56):
we want to stay in that regret,or whether we choose to forgive
ourselves and forgiving ourselves.
Oh my gosh, that's so powerful in itself.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe power of forgiveness.
Yes.
forgiveness is really release.
it's releasing, it's letting go.
it's for when we're forgiving others.
(17:17):
That's what it is.
It's releasing the contemptthat you have and saying,
releasing judgment, if you will.
and sometimes that's a huge strugglein itself in terms of releasing,
the, the anger you have towards anindividual for what they did wrong.
But we also need to release the judgment.
Towards ourselves and for me, Iam a Christian who, when I speak
(17:40):
about my faith, accepting God'sforgiveness for us, because.
I believe God knows that we areimperfect individuals and we're
going to mess up sometimes.
And I think for someone who is arecovering perfectionist like myself,
sometimes one of the main reasons westruggle with releasing or forgiving
(18:03):
or accepting God's forgiveness isbecause we have such a high standard
of perfection and perfection is justnot real, is not going to happen.
and we will.
make mistakes, we will fall short.
And so understanding that and saying,okay, I did not do that but I'm
growing and I'm going to let that go.
(18:25):
And I'm going to move forward from thisand try to do better now next time.
And so that's how I look at it.
And it's an ongoing reminder ofhow we have to Operate and give
ourselves grace when we make mistakesand we don't get things just right.
Oh, beautiful.
You hit it right there.
the power of forgivenessand that perfectionism.
(18:48):
Oh my gosh.
I lived with that for most of my life.
So it took me a good, probably more,50 years, sad to say, for me to just,
for me just to let up on myself.
to say it's okay.
you don't need to be perfect anymore.
(19:09):
You don't need to prove yourselfto anybody or, you don't need
to do everything perfectly.
And, once I allowed myself, thatwas like the freedom and the peace
started to come into my life.
And that was beautiful becausesuddenly I wasn't always just
Chasing these unrealistic, highstandards and bars I'd set.
(19:29):
And, just said, okay, if I getthat done today, that's fantastic.
Great.
Good effort.
If I don't, okay, tomorrow's there.
How about that?
How about that?
And do you know what?
When you allow yourself to do that,everybody else just flows with you.
It was you that had theissue, not anybody else.
(19:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's go back to your dad and howlong was his journey for starters?
How long did you have to experiencethe, the decline of his cognition
through to his eventual passing?
Yeah.
So he was diagnosed with mildcognitive disorder in 2016.
(20:12):
And then he ended up in 2020.
That's when it was pretty, it was rough.
It was bad.
And then slowly what was happening was.
Even though he was still had a strength,he would do things like he would fall.
And one time, I believe this is whatreally set things spiraling is he had
(20:36):
a bad fall and somewhere along the way,because of the fall, he got an infection.
that infection caused himto end up in the hospital.
And when he was in the hospital,he could no longer speak.
And we were there with him.
Seeing him where he really,he was in a lot of pain.
(20:56):
We couldn't get him toengage in conversation.
He really wasn'tinterested in watching TV.
And my brother made a suggestion.
He said, why don't we playsome music for my dad?
And so we pulled out his phone andhe put on my dad's favorite song
that he used to play on vinyl and hewould have it on blast in the house.
(21:19):
We played a family reunion by the OJs.
In that moment, my dad startedsinging in the hospital and we just,
I almost started crying tears of joy.
It was just such a beautiful momentbecause he was extremely, he was
happy like in, in with the music.
And for me, the nurses rushed in.
(21:41):
They were like, Mr.
Jones, oh my goodness.
It's this is so cool.
Go ahead and sing.
And so we had a littleconcert in the hospital.
oh, I love
and.
and.
For me, I'll always cherish that memory.
and again, that's the beautiful sideof grief is that there's certain
memories that we have with our lovedones that bring us tremendous joy.
(22:04):
And one of those ways in which we cando that is through the music, right?
Music is one of the lastthings that someone will lose
in terms of their memory.
And I saw that lived out.
And so for me, I'll never ever hear thatsong family reunion and not Think of my
father and smile because of the moments.
(22:25):
and that's the thing I had to learn thateven though my dad could not remember
certain things that we were experiencingtogether when he really declined and
eventually passed in 2022, I still had.
Those memories that I could holdon to and create while he was still
here up until the very last breath.
(22:46):
And so that's what I hold onto when I'm missing my dad.
Oh, that is so powerful andso beautiful and I love that.
It just made me thinkwhile you were speaking.
I remember, and I don't know if I'vegot this right or not, it's so long
ago, but I remember something aboutthe reptilian brain and rhythm.
(23:10):
Which is what music is, and sound,and rhythm, and things like that.
So maybe that's why it's oneof the last things to go.
What other beautiful memories wereyou able to create with your dad?
Yeah, I think just the times in which Iwould take him out to lunch or to dinner
(23:31):
or he ended up paying for it, or thetimes in which I would just record him
when I realized that he was losing hismemory, I made an attempt to record as
much as possible so I could hold on to it.
And so I would interview himand this is the journalism.
Background in me.
I'm like, ask questions and I'mrecording it, whether it's on
(23:51):
my iPhone or setting up video.
And that was really important for mebecause I wanted to capture the essence
of my dad before his memory fullydeclined some of the footage I got.
But even when it was in the lattertimes, I did that with him and I
also tried my best to do thingsthat were just funny for him.
(24:14):
I remember.
My dad, again, 10th degree black belt.
So even right before he passed,he still remember karate.
He couldn't remember half ofanything, but he remember karate.
And so I would ask himquestions around karate.
And I said, dad, show me some moves.
And he's almost 82 at this point.
(24:34):
And he's before you do some moves, I needyou to drop down and give me 20 pushups.
it was funny.
Because I would do the pushupsand then he would lose count
and tell me to start over again.
It was such a mess, but it was funnybecause he was laughing at me as I fell
on my face, but it brought him joy andit made a memory, and so I just had
(24:58):
to find ways in which I could bond andlaugh through the sadness, because.
It was very, it was a mixed bag ofemotions of laughing and then crying
almost at the same time of accepting thereality, but I just said to myself, every
second I'm going to embrace, with thisdear loved one of mine, which I call dad.
(25:22):
It
very overwhelming being in that depth ofsadness for such for such long periods
of time and so I love that you wereable to find that laughter to create
a balance and bring your system backto some sort of, normalcy and then
be able to then cope with the next
(25:45):
episode.
That's such good advice.
And also recording.
Wow.
What a brilliant idea.
I bet there are people who are goingto listen to this episode and go,
right, that is what I need to do.
Even if it's not with Alzheimer's, evenif it's with a, a chronic illness or
Somebody who's in a, a terminal diagnosis.
(26:08):
What a brilliant time to startgetting your phone out and asking
all of those questions that younever thought or always assumed you
would have time to ask but never did.
Wow.
Great suggestions.
Cool.
Yeah, that's really good.
So it's about living in the presentwith your loved one, isn't it?
(26:31):
It forces you to do that.
When you think about it, it's liketaking in every moment and realizing
that when it comes to what my dadwas going through, it was difficult.
Difficult for him to, and that'sthe thing at some point when he was
still wrestling with the fact that hewas losing his memory and realizing
(26:52):
that certain things were off, it wasdifficult for him to accept that reality.
That's something is wrong with me,and then when we got to the point
where we had to make difficultdecisions, make sure he's not driving.
And my dad was a very independent person,those emotions that he was feeling when
we're taking his independence away, itwas, he was mad, but we had to watch,
(27:18):
we had to do what was best for him.
And so my mom.
God bless her.
She's still living as shewas the primary caretaker.
And so she carried a lot of the loadand a lot of the emotional burden and
bless any of the caretakers out therebecause it's such a difficult path.
But the extended family, my brotherand I, We also realized that this is
(27:39):
challenging and when you are caring forsomeone who needs that type of support
in that type of care, you want to do yourpart to support the primary caregiver
who is also experiencing a level ofgrief because they're slowly watching
this decline, but they're also, dealingwith the emotional, addiction at all.
(28:01):
How do I say it?
Like my dad giving her the flux inthis case, because of his hurt and
his disease in many cases, because itgot to a point where it might not have
been him struggling emotionally withletting go, but he just was not well
enough because of the Alzheimer's.
And so his emotions wouldsometimes be unregulated and it
(28:21):
was very difficult for my mom.
Yeah.
So are you reading my mindbecause you're answering the
questions I was just going to ask.
I was just going, I was just going toask you, how did you need to best support
your mom as the primary caregiver?
what sort of things really helped her?
(28:43):
Yeah, we just tried to get overthere as much as we could to visit,
because if we came to visit, shecan finally get some reprieve.
She can maybe go into the other room ormaybe go and do some grocery shopping.
And so I think showing upFirst of all is very important.
I think being a listening ear sothat they can vent and be raw with
(29:05):
their venting without judgment,because no one knows what it's
like to be the primary caregiver.
And sometimes you wanna curse, sometimesyou wanna be like, this drove me crazy.
and you need a safe spaceto say all of those things.
And just providing that.
For that individual and sometimesjust offering some practical
support, okay, mom, or whoever thecaregiver is, let me take dad here.
(29:29):
Let me take him out thehouse so you can just sleep.
And do whatever that is veryhelpful and also just making sure
that you encourage the caregiver.
In this case, my mom, maybe weneed to have you plug into a
support group for caregivers.
Okay, mom, what are youdoing to care for yourself?
Because the pressure and stressof being a caregiver can really
(29:53):
do something to their health.
And so being mindful of that aswell and just checking on their
well being is important to.
They are such unsung heroes, aren't they?
the caregivers, the silent caregiversout there in the world who just get
on with it, do what they need to don'ttend to really complain or gripe about
(30:16):
it because what's the point of it?
And Yeah, we have thousands upon thousandsof beautiful souls, doing that job.
how do you support them after theylose their loved one who has been a
mainstay of their life for so very long.
And in those last years, it's basicallybeen a 24 seven role, hasn't it?
(30:40):
it is.
It is.
It is, is an interesting transition.
and again, I say interesting loosely.
That's not the best word.
it's like a transition for thatindividual that's unique for them.
Because for some, it's a relief thatthey are not on 24 seven and they have
all this free time that they didn't havebefore, but it's also tremendous grief.
(31:04):
Yeah.
It's a mixed bag because the workand the requirements that you have
of being on all the time, it'sit's so consuming of your life.
And so now it's wait, Idon't have to do this.
my mom, she hardly ever got a good night'ssleep when my dad was in his late stages.
(31:26):
because of the fact he would wanderaround the house and, come in
and be disturbing and everything.
And so for her, it's one of those thingswhere her sleep pattern hasn't fully
recovered because of just the consistencyof caring for him for so many years.
So the time it takes after theirdeath to get acclimated to now, what.
(31:49):
Do I do with this time?
How do I, reengage certain thingsthat I might have stopped doing?
And what's this path forward now Ineed to grieve as well after all.
So it's, it takes a lot oftime and a lot of support.
And I always say that I thinkthat individuals who have been
caregivers or just someone whohas experienced a loss like that
(32:12):
should find places in which you can.
Talk about these emotions and slowlybegin to unpack everything, whether
that's through individual counseling,whether that's through a support group.
But I don't believe that weshould carry the burdens and
our grief journey by ourself.
And so for me, if this is something thatif you're dealing with, I encourage you
(32:37):
to plug into some sort of community tohelp you to move forward, as you grieve.
because there are, there are a lotof empty days or spaces in your day,
when you've gone from 24 7 caregivingto suddenly having nothing, and it's
almost like too much time to think andthen if you get into the wrong thought
patterns, you can start ruminatingon stuff that's not very healthy
(33:00):
for you or, good for your psyche.
yeah, I totally agree.
so tell me the value of, grief groups.
which you're a master in.
That grief groups can be verybeneficial because it, it is a space
to remind you that you are not byyourself in these heavy emotions.
(33:26):
And it's a place in which, tosome extent, people understand.
Now, I say that loosely because, again,each of our grief journeys are different.
So your experience with grief isnot going to exactly mirror mine.
However, in terms of acknowledgingthe pain and feeling validated to
(33:46):
have these heavy emotions, sometimeswe need that because other people
who might not be familiar with you.
The type of grief you might be goingthrough, say, for instance, you lost a
child or you lost a spouse, or has someother loss that is specific in nature.
If you are around others who'vegone through a similar loss
(34:07):
is some connectivity there.
And you can say, okay, ifyou've made it through this,
how did you make it through it?
And at least you get why I'min excruciating pain right now.
And I can't sleep at night.
So it was being around.
And also don't minimize your pain.
One of the issues, fortunately that Ifind a lot in my faith tradition in the
(34:29):
Christian church, and it could be in otherfaith traditions as well, is the fact that
sometimes people use Christian platitudes.
Bible verses to minimize ortry to make people feel better.
They're really trying toencourage you with these words.
And so they'll quote scripturesbecause they don't know what to say.
And they'll say cute little sayings justbecause they want to fill space and they
(34:53):
don't know what to say, but it can alsomake people feel worse, because it could
feel like my pain is being minimized and,I know you're saying that God got another
angel in heaven, but I want my child here.
I want my spouse here.
And so it can actually be hurtful forsomeone when they hear those things.
(35:14):
And so in a grief group, youdon't necessarily have to
worry about that as much.
And you have a trained facilitator who'sgoing to organize the conversation in such
a way where your feelings, your experienceis validated and you don't have to
also worry about burdening otherpeople with these heavy emotions
(35:38):
that they might not be at a placewhere they can hold people are often
uncomfortable with talking aboutgrief and when they see someone cry,
they Oh, no, I don't know what to do.
And so they again, they could justsay certain things or just try to
change the subject or try to fix it.
Fix you.
But grief doesn't have to be grief issomething that doesn't need to be fixed.
(35:58):
Grief is a real natural emotionand needs a space to be expressed.
And so the grief groupsprovide that for you.
Everything you've just said thereis so important To have a safe space
where you can be authentically you andhow you need to express your grief.
(36:20):
And know that it can be validatedby others, and then even form
friendships with others becauseyou just connect with somebody.
You connect with the soul in that groupwho may not be on the same journey
as you, but you feel that connection.
You feel that they getit, they understand.
Isn't that so important?
(36:41):
Yeah.
very Helen.
Are you feeling lost, anxious,unsure of how to navigate the
loss of your beautiful loved one.
I don't know where to head next.
Yeah, I get that.
Then you may be interested inthe new offering I've developed
A Letter of Hope and Aroha.
To help you find out whoyou are right here and now.
(37:03):
And how you can navigate that withoutbeing on that emotional roller
coaster feeling out of control.
That's a feeling I really dislikedafter Tahl and then Adrian died.
So I've developed an eight weeksupport program where each week you
get an email of what worked for me.
As well as other tried andtrue tools to help with grief.
(37:26):
It's a beautiful calming, meanhealing resource that I think
you're really going to like.
And that you can use in youreveryday life to find out what
works for you and what doesn't.
And the great thing is you findyourself feeling stronger and more in
control, so you can work out what youwant life to look like going forward.
(37:47):
So with this sounds like somethingyou would like to check out, head
over to my website, or check outthe link in the episode notes, you're
looking for A Letter of Hope & Aroha.
Oh, yes, this is goodinformation, Jocelyn.
I know that we've talked about a lotof things about Alzheimer's and what
(38:10):
are some things that perhaps we haven'ttalked about that you feel people most
need to know if they're embarking or onthat journey, or if you're supporting
people who are on that journey.
I would just say that dealing withanticipatory grief of this nature
(38:32):
where you are seeing that I don'thave much time can be very difficult.
It's hard to accept and we can findourselves in a similar situation
as me where you try to deny theseriousness of the situation.
You don't want to find yourselfexperiencing that type of regret
(38:53):
of, I should have spent moretime, I should have done this.
And so I just encourage you to do yourbest to make the most time, make the
most of the time you have with them.
This is honestly a practice that we, Ibelieve can strive to do with everyone,
regardless of if they have an illnessthat we love to make the most of the time
we have with them, but also realize thateven if they can't remember, Again, you
(39:19):
can remember if their memory is fadingand they forget that you threw them a
80th birthday party, you'll still havethe memories from the 80th birthday party
that you can hold on to the pictures,the videos, whatever you can get.
And they still can experience joy.
They can still experience laughter,even if the memory is fleeting.
(39:43):
And so for them in those moments, again,it forces you to be in the present with
that individual, be in the present ina loving way, in a joint, joyful way,
do the things that, make them happy,connect with them over music, because
I'm telling you music brings out the bestin people, in terms of those memories.
And so that's what Iwould encourage you to do.
(40:05):
And then be plugged into family.
Because as you are journeyingwith someone who is losing
their memory, it's difficult.
And so being around loved ones whocare about that individual and can
lift you up and encourage you, andthat you can be honest with your
grief about what you're feeling inthose moments, you need an outlet.
(40:26):
And so plug into that as you arejourneying forward, through this
process with your loved one.
What I know about a lot of caregiversis that they are exactly that.
They are the givers.
How do they advocate for the self carethat they need along that journey?
(40:49):
Oh, it's very difficult.
And in each individual, theirsituation's different, right?
Because sometimes you might nothave the financial means to get.
part time caregiver in and if that's thecase, maybe there might be some social
service programs that you can researchto try to get some additional support
because it's really difficult to do the24 hour care and not have any break.
(41:15):
and then the other thing is lookinginto family and you might have
family, but they might not be local.
They might not take initiative.
You might not want to ask them.
And so the best advice I can giveyou is to Do your best to try to
explore resources that are available.
And if you do have to be the primarycaregiver and you don't really get
(41:38):
breaks, like you needed, there aresupport groups where you can at least
for an hour plug in to maybe a zoom.
a support group or something whereyou can talk and vent and get it out
and connect with other caregivers whoare going through something similar.
I've hosted caregiver supportgroups or meetings before, workshops
(42:00):
that is for individuals and just.
hearing them talk and say, man, I've gonethrough this, or this was so hard for me.
And then in just, in some cases, justcrying openly about their struggle as a
caregiver was healing in nature for them.
And so in some type ofway, you need an outlet to.
Talk about what you are going through, andif you can get a breakaway to sneak away,
(42:25):
just have quiet time to even just sitand stare at the wall, but just not have
to do that work, we need that time away.
So I would explore social serviceagencies to see if you can get someone
to support you, or you have a placewhere you can take your loved one
for those small breaks in between.
great advice there, Jocelyn.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
(42:48):
Now, you talked about anticipatory grief.
Let's talk about end of lifeand preparing for end of life.
Did you and your family discusswith your dad what he wanted
his funeral to look like?
Yes, so he tried to discuss it with me.
As I mentioned, I just was not in aplace where I was ready to receive it.
(43:12):
But my mom, they had conversationsabout it and he did a good job in terms
of putting things together for me.
For the state, which I'm so grateful for.
if that's something that anyone who'slistening right now, if you could try to
facilitate some of those conversationsahead of time, so it's not a hot
mess because grief is hard already.
(43:32):
But when you got a disaster withthe state, that makes it worse.
And I do, It worked out for me, but ifI could go back in time, I would try
to be more open to engaging in some ofthe conversations around life after his
death, because it's such a difficultconversation to have, but it's also
(43:54):
an important conversation to have.
And you can't, Ask the person tocome back from the grave afterwards
and say, but what about this?
Or what about that?
you can't do that.
And so even though you might startcrying, even though it's uncomfortable,
even though you do not want to talkabout it, quite frankly, it is something
that we do need to talk about becausethe flip side of this is, if, in my
(44:16):
case, if my parents weren't, Aheadof the game in terms of a state
planning and things were in disarray,it would have been a hot mess for us.
And so maybe it's something whereyou do need to initiate certain
conversations as difficult as they are.
This is what I love about what we'reboth doing with the shows that we're
doing, is that we're highlighting thesethings that are typically Not really
(44:42):
talked about a lot in society and oh,yeah, we can deal with that another day.
We've got a long time,before that happens.
But actually, we absolutely do notknow what is around the corner for us.
And so the earlier we can have thesetypes of conversations and accept that
they are healthy conversations, thebetter because, let's just deal with
(45:08):
the fact that, we may not have tomorrow,
That's
yeah, we've got here and we'vegot now let's make the most of it.
That just came to mind as youwere talking about that, about how
important those conversations are.
And, I came across a couple ofbeautiful ladies that developed
a card game called the Deaf Deck.
(45:28):
And it's, yes, you canhave parties around this.
And you can deal out, you can do it in anumber of different ways, but you can deal
out the cards and they all have reallypivotal questions, for people to consider.
Do you want a celebration of deathor do you want a celebration of life?
(45:49):
yeah, and do you want that to happen?
Before, if you know that somebody hasgot an illness, do you want that to
happen before so you get all the peoplethat you want around you and you have
this great party where you get toshare memories and talk about the good
(46:10):
times and do all that sort of stuff.
before, it's that sort ofconversation that can happen.
And it's just beautiful because itjust makes you think and consider
what is it that you would really like.
I love that.
Jocelyn, we're not going to get totalk about, grief and trauma perhaps,
(46:33):
that's an opportunity we can do downthe line, because I also think trauma
and grief is very much wrapped intogether, and a very big part of it.
topic, for us to be sharing.
But I want to let you know how gratefulI am for what you've shared today
around your own experiences with yourdad and with your mom and with your
(46:55):
family and how you've been dealing withthat journey you've had on Alzheimer's.
There are a few questions I finish offevery episode with and these are, the
first one is, what is the best thingthat has happened to you so far today?
Mmh.
The best thing that's happened.
(47:16):
Wow.
That's a good question.
I would just say that I wokeup next to my husband and.
We are in such a loving place rightnow, in spite of the storms that
we've gone through, and I said, God,thank you for allowing me to see
another day with someone who I love.
I think that would probablybe the highlight of the day.
(47:38):
Oh, that's pretty beautiful.
What a beautiful wayto start your day off.
Oh, yeah.
and we're talking about gratitude now.
What is something thatyou are most grateful for?
I'm grateful for, the lessons that I'velearned from the mistakes that I've made.
(47:58):
I have, for the longest again, recoveringperfectionists have really struggled with
condemnation because of the mistakes andfailures, but I'm really learning to say.
It's okay, sis.
God has used these mistakes thatyou've made to do tremendous work
to actually start your ministry.
It makes you authentic and beable to connect with people.
(48:22):
So no, it's okay.
It is okay.
and so I've grown tremendouslyfrom the failures and missteps
that I've made along the way.
And so I'm grateful for how,I've been able to move forward
in spite of those things.
I love that answer.
because that shows vulnerability.
(48:42):
Yes, recovering perfectionists.
We always find those things alittle bit tricky, don't we?
Yeah.
Being kind to ourselves.
When you have moments in your daythat turn to custard when they
are not going so well, how doyou pivot out of those moments?
(49:06):
have learned that we don'thave to wait until the new
year to hit the reset button.
Every hour, every second,sometimes we can choose to reset.
and so when I find myself going there.
Because I can spiral,I can get in my head.
(49:26):
I'm an introvert and I can startthinking about these negative
thoughts and what I should have,could have did and what went wrong.
I have learned how to snap myselfout of that and say, okay, is
this serving me to think this way?
Can I change it?
let me hit the reset button.
This is a new hour.
(49:46):
This is a new moment and Idon't have to let what just
happened ruin the rest of my day.
That's a choice for me to let thiscause me to unravel just because this
person acted the fool or this mistakehappened or whatever the case may be.
And so I'm choosing to reset this now andhave this outlook for the rest of the day.
(50:09):
Oh, that is great advice.
Love that.
So I'm going to have all the linksof how people can reach you, plus
your bio and the episode notes.
would you like to just sharehow they can reach you?
What's the easiest wayto reach you just now?
And also any partingcomments you may have for us.
(50:31):
Sure.
I think the catch all website togo to is my website, jocelynjjones.
com.
And you'll learn about books andresources and speaking and the
things I do on my podcast as well.
And so I would say, checkthat out right there.
And the other thing I would just mentionis whatever you might struggle with,
(50:52):
this might be a season of grief for you.
It could be a season where you'rejust going through a challenging time,
whatever is going on in your life.
Just remember that we'renot meant to do life alone.
Even as an introvert who likesto spend time alone, I have
found that I still need people.
I still need community and I still needto have safe places that I can go to,
(51:17):
to be honest, where I don't have to beReverend Jocelyn, you don't have to be
whatever your title is, you can just be.
We are human beings, not human doers.
And so when it comes to, healing, whenit comes to grieving, when it comes to
caring for ourselves, sometimes we haveto stop the doing and just be and be
in an authentic places where we can behonest about what we're struggling with.
(51:41):
So find that place wherever that might be.
That's beautiful.
Why is it that introverted perfectionistsalways are out there doing so much?
That's a trend there.
I
Have you thought of,
over performance.
I know,
going on?
oh my gosh, especially when wejust crave our own space and love
(52:04):
being in our own space, like I,I often have thought about that.
Oh, now, something I also remembered,you have a free grief resource that
people can access as well, don't you?
Thank you for asking.
Yes, I do have a free grief resourceguide that anyone who is interested
in it's like a grief survival kit.
(52:25):
It offers you some resources to help youto navigate what you're going through.
So I'll make sure that you have thatavailable in the link as well, the show
so that you can download that for free.
Oh, that would be perfect.
Ah, Rev Jocelyn, what an absoluteprivilege and honor it has been
(52:46):
to connect with you today, tohave you share so openly your
own heart about your own grief.
And I think that's going toserve our listeners so very well.
And, truly, there are so many gemsin what we've talked about today.
And I am very gratefulfor the opportunity.
(53:07):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me, Helen.
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